ADHD and breastfeeding with Kathryn Stagg IBCLC

This week, I’m delighted to be joined by returning guest, the fabulous Kathryn Stagg IBCLC—also a musician, parent, and qualified neurodiversity coach—to discuss ADHD and breastfeeding. Kathryn explains ADHD subtypes, why the label can be misleading, common overlap with autism and other neurodivergences, and how diagnosis often follows identification in a child. She shares about her own assessment and how diagnosis improved self-awareness and self-forgiveness, alongside mixed experiences with medication. We explore how ADHD can help breastfeeding through antenatal hyperfocus and responsiveness, but can make difficulties like triple feeding, planning, and accessing support harder due to executive function challenges and rejection sensitivity dysphoria. Kathryn shares some practical support strategies,  and discusses some challenges with sensory sensitivities, breastfeeding aversion, app-related anxiety, and perimenopause effects.

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, by going to https://bit.ly/JKPbooks and using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

Resources mentioned - 

ADHD and Breastfeeding - The Breastfeeding Network https://www.breastfeedingnetwork.org.uk/factsheet/adhd-and-breastfeeding/

You can follow Kathryn Stagg on her website https://kathrynstaggibclc.com/ or @‌kathrynstaggibclc on instagram

And thank you to FeedSpot for listing me as #7 in the top breastfeeding podcasts list https://podcast.feedspot.com/breastfeeding_podcasts/

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

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[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end, too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, 

breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk 

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm very excited today to be joined again by the fantastic Kathryn Stagg, IBCLC, who is one of my returning lactation consultants.

I was joking with Lucy Webber that I was gonna get special jackets like they have on Saturday Night Live for people who come back more than once. The last episode we did was about the great pretenders, those babies that are kind of late pre-term, early term, and today we're talking about something completely different.

We're talking about ADHD and, and breastfeeding. Before we get started, tell us about the video that you posted this morning about our conversation. 

[00:01:23] Kathryn Stagg: Yes. So I've known ... I've had this in my diary for, I don't know, a good six weeks probably. It was a while ago, wasn't it, when you approached me, Emma. Uh, so I was sort of hyper-focusing, as we say, on, on sort of the topic this morning.

So I did a little bit of, um, a, a social media kind of dive, um, a couple weeks ago, uh, just to sort of ... You know, 'cause you, you don't wanna talk to just one person with ADHD. It's important to get a nice sort of rounded opinion base for things and stuff, so I thought I'd see what other people's experiences were as well.

And so was reading back on all of that, and just reading up on definitions of things, and just kind of getting it all in my head, and went, "Right, I'm ready to go." It's like 15 minutes to go. Looked at my calendar, and I got the time wrong. It was two hours later, thankfully. It was the right way than I thought it was.

Uh, I don't know where I got this idea it was 12 from. I looked at it this morning, so I don't know. 

[00:02:14] Emma Pickett: And that is ... Yeah. I mean, I, I hope you don't mind me asking you to share that, but I think it's just a really valuable example of some of the things that you have to kind of live with every day, and- Yes

what your experience can be like. And I probably should have taken some responsibility and, and nudged you maybe the day before. Would that have been helpful, or would that have been patronizing? 

[00:02:32] Kathryn Stagg: No, it would not have been patronizing. I love that. 

[00:02:34] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. 

[00:02:35] Kathryn Stagg: So yes, absolutely. I think if somebody knows that, um, they're dealing with someone with, with, um, especially ADHD, but any neurodivergent, it's sometimes worth just triple checking that they are remembering that they're supposed to be where they're supposed to be, if you have the opportunity.

I, I never get worried about ... You know, I'm never offended by it personally 'cause I, I think it's very helpful. 

[00:02:54] Emma Pickett: That's good to know, and I take some responsibility in that. Well, thank you very much for getting here and joining me- ... um, the time that we are here. So we're gonna be talking about ADHD and, and obviously you wear lots of different hats because you are

You're actually a music teacher and a musician as well. 

[00:03:09] Kathryn Stagg: Yes. 

[00:03:10] Emma Pickett: And you're a parent, and you're a lactation consultant, and you're also now a qualified neurodiversity coach. 

[00:03:17] Kathryn Stagg: Yes. 

[00:03:17] Emma Pickett: Tell us what that actually means. What, how does that ... Is, how's that gonna sit alongside your IBCLC work, or is it, or is it completely separate?

[00:03:24] Kathryn Stagg: Oh, no, it's gonna sit alongside it, absolutely. Um, well, firstly, you know, a lot of parents are neurodivergent. I am. I didn't know I was when I had babies, and I got diagnosed quite recently And, you know, through my entire life actually, I've struggled with all sorts of stuff that I just thought was kind of my quirks and me and that kind of stuff.

And then I, I was sort of... I, especially in the lactation world, there's a lot of us neurodivergent people in the lactation world. 

[00:03:48] Emma Pickett: Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it? Let me ask you about that, 'cause that is absolutely true, and loads and loads of the fantastic lac- lactation consultants in the UK are neurodivergent.

Is that just because you think people become hyper-focused and just keep researching and end up training? 

[00:04:03] Kathryn Stagg: That's a big part of it, is 'cause you, once you get into a topic, and if you find it interesting, you tend to then hyper-focus on it. And a lot of us, when we are having our babies, it's a massive life change, isn't it?

And sometimes the work that you were doing before you had babies is not something that you particularly feel passionate about, or maybe not something that, you know, and your focus changes a lot when you've had a baby as well. And I think a lot of people are interested in doing something different afterwards.

And, you know, a lot of us go down the volunteer route first of all, and support parents, and then some of us take it further and try and actually make it their job as well. So it's, um, so yeah, it's a, it's a common thing. Uh, and I think it very much suits the brain, I suppose, in some ways, um, just because you're, you know, it depends on what setting you're working and things like that as well.

But, you know, if, especially if you're working for yourself, it's very much, um, that you can sort of control their own wa- your own way of doing things and how it works best for you. That makes sense. Um, so from a business point of view, certainly I think, you know, there's, there's no, you know... I'm a, my other job is a peripatetic music teacher, which is basically, I mean, over the course of my career, I've probably been in a, I think I worked out it was 26 different schools over the course of 30 years.

Wow. And there's no, uh, that's not a coincidence with my ADHD brain. That's what I would keep... Now I know about it, I'm like, "Of course, that makes total sense," because, you know, you sit somewhere for a bit, then you get a bit bored and you're like, "Actually, that job looks a little bit better," so you apply for that one.

And you can... You know what I mean? So it's, it's really interesting. Now I know a lot more about it, um, about how I understand how my life has panned out. I, I managed around three weeks in an office when I was doing work experience in, in, in the middle of my degree, and realized that that very much was not for me.

And, uh, yeah, so it was, it, it's, it's interesting, isn't it, how it- 

[00:05:47] Emma Pickett: I'm so glad you found what does work for you- Yes ... 'cause we, we all benefit from that as a result. Tell us a bit more about the coaching then. So how's that gonna, how's that gonna work? What, what do you, what will you offer? 

[00:05:56] Kathryn Stagg: So, um, baby businesses is what I'm just specializing at the moment, because obviously I know the industry really well.

So at the moment that's... So anybody who's done exactly what I did, where they've had a complete change of career in, um, once they've had the baby and they, they've either gone into lactation support or maybe baby massage or, you know, any- anything around that kind of thing, and they just want a little bit of, of kind of coaching around kind of how to manage ADHD, autism, whatever neurodivergence you have, whatever combination.

There's normally a combination of them. It's not normally one thing. And just sort of be able to work out kind of how to make things easier for how their individual brain functions, basically. So that's what that part of it is. And then I'm very much very interested in parent coaching as well, uh, because it's quite interesting and a lot of us neurodivergent, um, parents have quite high-needs babies.

I don't think there's any coincidence in this at 

[00:06:53] Emma Pickett: all. Yeah. 

[00:06:54] Kathryn Stagg: Yeah. And it's really, really hard, really, really challenging, and sometimes if you're struggling with your own issues around overwhelm and the things like that as well, and you've got a baby who's really high needs as well on top of that, you know, it's, it's just really, really difficult to manage everything and, and, uh, so that's another kind of direction that I'm going in as well.

Yeah. Brilliant. So a kind of combination. 

[00:07:13] Emma Pickett: So you're gonna be able to offer those practical things that we'll c- we'll go on to talk about, but also- Yeah ... just an understanding and an empathy and getting it. That must be so valuable to someone who's feeling- Yeah ... all that new parent overwhelm. Just to say, if anyone can hear a little rumbly noise, there are-- we both have fans on, and it's so flipping hot.

We're recording in, during that crazy hot s- period in the summer. We're just gonna have rumbly noises. Yeah. Apolog- apologies to my lovely editor, Emily, who's like, "Oh no, she's not switching off the fans." No, we're not switching off our fans. So that's just the r- reality of the little tiny rumbly noise you might sometimes hear.

Okay, let me ask the world's dumbest question, but I don't shy away from asking dumb questions. What is ADHD? If you were talking to someone, obviously p- we, we're hearing it spoken about more because I think there is more awareness of it than there was even three or four years ago. But what is it? Do we understand what's happening when somebody has it?

Do we know what's going on? How would you describe it to someone who knew absolutely nothing? 

[00:08:13] Kathryn Stagg: So the official diagnosis, let's say, of ADHD, uh, uh, it's attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. I have a lot of problems, and so do many of us with that title, particularly around the disorder part of it. Um, uh, so, and then it's sort of subdivided into three different types, which is inattentive, uh, that's one.

Hyperactive or impulsive is the other one, and then a combined type, which is basically having a mix of both. The thing is, I'm gonna go through each word and why each one is a little bit problematic. Yeah. 

[00:08:45] Emma Pickett: That, that will be, that will be useful. And also, I mean, listen, pr- literally pretend we know zero. So it would also be helpful to understand the different types a bit more as well, so.

[00:08:53] Kathryn Stagg: Yeah. So the, uh, the attention deficit bit, the attention bit is interesting because, yes We can absolutely struggle with attention and actually concentrating on things. However, uh, there is often a massive hyperfocus on s- Mm ... topics that we find interesting. You can sit for hours and concentrate on something if you're finding it interesting.

So yes, so in some circumstances it is very difficult to concentrate, and then in others it's actually really easy. So it's, it's actually a bit misunderstanding that one. Uh, you know, the deficit side of things is just, it's not, just not a nice word, is it? I don't, I think we don't even need to go into that.

Um, uh, hyperactivity, this one's really misunderstood in females in particular. Uh, so hyperactivity, they always assume it's those boys jumping around in the classroom who can't sit still. Actually, for a lot... And, I mean, there are girls who have the same issue as well. However, for the way females tend to present is often that the hyperactivity is actually inside their brain.

[00:09:54] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:09:54] Kathryn Stagg: And this is what I didn't understand before I actually looked into it much more, so I was like, "Ah, I'm not ADHD. I can sit still. I'm absolutely fine." What I actually re- realized that when I'm sitting still, I'm actually fiddling with stuff. I'm playing with my phone. I'm, I used to chew my hair when I was younger.

I used to, uh, click my pen and, you know, all sorts of actually what we now call stimming in order to be able to sit still. And also, there is never a moment where there is nothing going on in my head. That's the other thing. So, you know, uh, it's... I have a permanent soundtrack, for one thing, going on in my brain.

Uh, my husband's always like, "You never listen to music." I'm like, "I don't need to. It's in my head all the time." I don't actually need to... Sometimes I have to put music on to stop my head if it's something that I don't want to be listening to. So... 

[00:10:38] Emma Pickett: I imagine as a musician, that's particularly tough. You've got your, a very sophisticated soundtrack.

Or is it 

[00:10:43] Kathryn Stagg: good? Is it- Yes, it's interesting. It's useful in some ways actually, 'cause y- again, I got quite obsessed by music, I suppose, at the time, and that's why I ended up being a musician, which is, you know, not the most stable job. Uh, my mum, bless her, she was very encouraging, which was lovely. But, um, you know, I got completely into that as well, so it was, um...

Yeah, so i- in some ways it can be useful, but you can't really turn it off, which is, um, difficult unless you're actually actively doing something else, which is, um, interesting. So the, the hyperactivity is often really misunderstood, I think, especially in, in girls. And then the, the whole disorder thing, it's not actually a disorder really.

It's, um... They, they, they say you have to have a disorder in order to get treatment for something. That's basically what I've been reading. 

[00:11:22] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:11:23] Kathryn Stagg: Uh, but, you know, we prefer maybe a, a difference particularly might be a better way of using the D rather than a disorder. Yeah. Um, 'cause it's, it's kind of a adjusted...

There's a lovely analogy someone's saying, it's like- You're basically operating, you know, using different operating systems like Android versus iPhone, you know, that kind of thing. So it's not that it doesn't work, it just works in a different way. 

[00:11:45] Emma Pickett: And then tell us a bit more about the different types.

You just ran through them at the beginning. 

[00:11:49] Kathryn Stagg: So inattentive is basically not being able to concentrate. That's basically all that means, and being away with fairies, being dizzy, all those kind of things that we used to say, you know, dizzy blondes, all that kind of stuff back in the day. Uh, you know, all that kind of...

That's, that's the kind of inattentive side of it. And then we've, we've tou-touched on the hyperactive bit as well, which is not necessarily physical hyperactivity, but can be sort of in your head as well, basically. And then the combined type, which I think, you know, the majority of people seem to be being, um, diagnosed with combined.

I have a funny feeling that the ones that are purely inattentive diagnosed possibly actually have got hyperactivity, but they don't understand the in- the brain bit- Yeah, that makes sense ... actually. So I wonder whether it's that. And the other thing is that, you know, this also overlaps with so many other neurodivergences as well.

So very rarely do people only have one thing and they're actually, you know, co-diagnosed with autism is very common, uh, sometimes dyspraxia and other such things as well. So it's, you know, each person is, presents in a very individual way. That's what's really important about this is, is not just doing, "Oh, you've got ADHD, you must have to do this, that, and the other."

[00:12:52] Emma Pickett: I think I know the answer to this question already, but I'm gonna ask it anyway. Do we know how it happens that some people's brains are on different operating systems? 

[00:13:00] Kathryn Stagg: It seems to be genetic, I think. There is some thinking around trauma as well in that that can sometimes sort of enhance it, but I think probably underlying tendencies there from the start.

You know what I mean? So, and it does seem to be that if you are diagnosed with ADHD, often, uh, many of us are diagnosed because our children have just been diagnosed. That's my story. 

[00:13:22] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I was gonna... I, I s- I remember you saying that was your story. And now that is, I think that was, was that Eleanor Campbell's story as well, I think she said in her episode- I think 

[00:13:30] Kathryn Stagg: so.

There's lots, lots 

[00:13:31] Emma Pickett: of us. So you start seeing traits in your children, and other people start identifying those traits, and then you- Yeah ... go, "Hang on. That's me too." Tell us, tell us, you're, you're being super honest about your own personal journey, which I think- Yep ... is incredibly valuable. Tell us a bit more about how that journey w- happened for you and, and particularly about how you got your diagnosis.

[00:13:49] Kathryn Stagg: Yeah. So my two younger children, I mean, now I know probably my two older children are also a neurodivergent, but, but they, they presented a more subtle way, and so, and coped fine with school and things like that. So I didn't, they didn't need a diagnosis, so to speak. Uh, but my middle one, uh, so I had twins first, just in case you didn't know that.

Uh, and then my two singletons, uh, my middle one and my youngest one, both of them have had some quite challenging times with the school system. And my middle one was the thing that kicked all this off, 'cause he was getting into quite a lot of trouble and sort of messing around and just not, you know... And this is really not him.

You know, I know him really well. I'm his mum. He d- he hates being pulled up in public, you know what I mean? For doing something wrong. He just absolutely hates it. And I thought, there's something weird going on here. 'Cause he wouldn't actively go and actually search this out. So we had a lot of very long discussions about why he was being sent out.

So part of it was that he was being accused of something that he hadn't done, and he was very cross about that, and couldn't control the fact that he was very cross about that, and and told the teacher how cross he was about it. So it was one reason, and another thing was a lot of fiddling and making noises and disruption and sort of, you know, all that kind of stuff.

So... And I started reading stuff, and I just, this sounds really like ADHD. So I, you know, did a lot of reading and took it to the school. So he wasn't actually diagnosed at all at this point. And I went, "I think we need to have a look at, um, ADHD." And what was very interesting is the minute that I mentioned it, the, the, the aura, the feeling in the room changed.

It was f- it was, went from, uh, "Oh, he's a naughty boy," blah, blah, blah, blah, to, "How can we help?" 

[00:15:20] Emma Pickett: Wow, okay. So this is the meeting in the school, school meetings. 

[00:15:23] Kathryn Stagg: Yes. 

[00:15:23] Emma Pickett: And it, isn't it interesting that you're the one that had to bring that to the meeting, that there are- 

[00:15:27] Kathryn Stagg: Absolutely. 

[00:15:28] Emma Pickett: There are professionals, and I say this as a, as an ex-teacher, there are professionals in that room who should be trained in this.

Not that they're necessarily able to diagnose, 'cause that's gonna be coming from a health professional. But- 

[00:15:40] Kathryn Stagg: Yeah ... 

[00:15:40] Emma Pickett: certainly should be saying, you know, "Miss Stagg, can we talk about some of these things we're noticing?" And it came from you. 

[00:15:47] Kathryn Stagg: Indeed. And also, I think there's the whole masking thing. So masking is when neurodivergent people have to learn how to fit into a neurotypical world by Almost like dampening down their, their kind of natural tendencies, their natural personality traits, that kind of stuff, their, uh, ADHD, uh, ADHD traits, their autism traits, in order to kind of fit in.

And my son was incredibly good at this. I had no idea until I started, you know, looking into it at this point. But when I then started reading, I looked back on quite a lot of things that happened in his younger years, and I went, "Oh, that's interesting. I didn't know that's what that was." You know? 

[00:16:29] Emma Pickett: As you say, the school started to listen, and you've...

And, um, obviously this is not your son's story. We're gonna be talking about breastfeeding. Yeah. But just out of curiosity, are you happy with how the school have supported him a- and- 

[00:16:40] Kathryn Stagg: His was an interesting... We had to take him out temporarily and, and let him burn out and recover from it, and then he went back into school and he's just sat his GCSE.

So in the long run, yes, it worked really well. In the short run, they didn't do enough quickly enough, in my opinion. Uh, and then my youngest, um, has just entered the same school, and he is, presents a little bit more strongly. I, I have known from birth that he's not the same as my other children. So, and, um, he presented very differently really from the start, and I, before he started secondary school, he, we managed through primary school.

They were fantastic. 

[00:17:16] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:17:16] Kathryn Stagg: Uh, and then through secondary school with that, they didn't again listen and put things in place quickly enough, and we've ended up in the same position where we are currently home educating. Uh, and he probably will go back to school at some point. I don't know when. I imagine it'll be for his sort of GCSEs or something like that possibly.

But it's... So for me, no, it hasn't helped. Primary school were very, very good, I have to say. Really, really good. Uh, but with the secondary side of things, not so good. But I think that's partly to do with the school that he was at. Um, and, uh, you know, there are other options which we will look into if he decides to go back.

[00:17:48] Emma Pickett: Okay. So I'm sorry to hear that, and, um, um, your son is very lucky that you're able to, to homeschool, and you've got- Mm ... the capacity and passion for that. So you've done the research on your first son and your... Well, he's actually your third, but your first son that you- Yeah ... needed this extra support with.

And, and a penny started to drop that you were describing yourself in or reading about yourself. Do you, do you remember one particular day when you went, "Oh my goodness, this is me"? I mean, do you re- do you remember, was it, was it one sudden epiphany, or did it kind of happen gradually? No, it 

[00:18:16] Kathryn Stagg: was a, it was a gradual realization.

Uh, so I was reading stuff about him and, and especially my middle son presents very much like I do in some ways. You know, he's a very similar personality type. And, uh, so a lot of what I was reading was, was like, "Oh, that's me as well. Oh, that's me as well. That's really interesting." There's a couple of lactation consultants who I'm very, you know, quite close friends with who have been diagnosed recently before I had, and they kept sending me articles So as a bit of a hint, I think read this.

Uh, and it suddenly dawned on me, I was like, "I think I am." And I, and, and I was like, "Oh, this is really interesting." So it was more of a kind of drip-feed, I suppose, over the course of about six months probably when I actually came to the realization what was, what was, what is, what my life had been about up to now, let's say.

[00:19:06] Emma Pickett: And then the actual process of getting diagnosis, am I right in thinking you have actually had a formal diagnosis? Yes. For anyone who doesn't understand, how does that work? What does that, what is that like? 

[00:19:14] Kathryn Stagg: Um, so there's two... I mean, I went a NHS route, but I went what is, what's called Right to Choose, which is where they use the private sector- Via the NHS to kind of speed up the process.

So we were lucky in our... And that, that dependent on where you live as to whether that's available or not, which is the main problem with the NHS, isn't it, in general, is that it's very postcode dependent. So I was lucky in that, uh, I was able to do that, which sped my... I actually got diagnosed before my children- Oh, wow.

Cool ... 'cause it wasn't available for my children, which was quite annoying. So it took my children 26 months to get their diagnosis. It took me about, I think it was about 10 or something like that, so it wasn't, wasn't, it was under a year, which is completely the wrong way around because actually in some ways I didn't need a diagnosis as I'd been coping for f- you know, 48 years without, without one.

So whereas my children actually needed it- 

[00:20:02] Emma Pickett: Yeah ... 

[00:20:02] Kathryn Stagg: uh, in order to kind of manage. Um, but anyway, so yeah, once I kind of got the... You, you basically, it's a kind of interview process. I did mine online. You can do it in person as well. Um, and they, you know, you fill out a form to start with for them to, you know, whoever's referring you.

So I went via the GP. You fill out a little form to sort of tick all the boxes and, and, you know, they, you get a kind of score. If anyone's doing this, I would highly recommend thinking about yourself on your worst day because as an adult you put so many bits of scaffolding in place to actually make you be able to function that you actually don't know what your normal is in some ways.

And so, so my... Uh, again, another friend who'd been diagnosed said, "Look, you have to do it as if you've got none of that stuff, and it's like the worst day of your life and everything's gone wrong." If you think of yourself when you're like that, that's how to answer the questionnaire because actually that's what you're like without all of the stuff that you've put in place to, to be able to manage.

So that was useful. I actually did it twice in the end, and I got a much higher score second time, once I'd thought of it like that. 

[00:21:02] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:21:03] Kathryn Stagg: And the GP referred me straight away basically 'cause I, um, completely missed the appointment. It was a phone appointment. The fact that she phoned me back, and I was just bringing the shopping in and in a total hot mess, and had to drop everything and run upstairs and then just blurted everything out in about six sentences in one go.

And she went, "Oh yeah, I think, I think we'll refer you for that then." That's... It was very funny. Uh, yeah, so there was no doubt from that point of view. And then the actual process is a kind of interview process. They ask you lots of things. They try and go back to your childhood as well, 'cause ADHD is a long-term thing.

It's not something that comes on. Uh, so you've had it all your life, so to speak. So they will often get maybe a parent or someone who knew you from younger years to also fill in a form and, uh, somebody who knows you well now as well. So you have sort of three prongs to kind of thing. So my mom did the, um, the long-term one and, you know, she was a little skeptical to begin with 'cause she just thought that's, you know, the older generation I think don't quite understand.

Yeah. It's just a kind of, you know, you're just you, which I was, you know. I know that, but it's, uh, it's interesting to have a label. 

[00:22:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So, so having that label, having that diagnosis Does that make you feel differently? I mean, has it, has it changed how you feel about yourself? 

[00:22:16] Kathryn Stagg: I've been thinking about this 'cause I knew you'd ask me this one.

Um, there's two things that have changed. One is that I'm far more self-aware and f- and I'm more able to say when I'm not comfortable or that kind of thing, you know, to advocate for myself, I suppose- Okay ... a little bit. I'm more able to do that. That's one thing, and the other thing is that I've forgiven myself for a lot of things that I thought I was rubbish at when I was younger.

[00:22:40] Emma Pickett: Oh, that's really, that's so important. Yeah. 

[00:22:42] Kathryn Stagg: It is, and I realized it was just how my brain works, and that it, I find some things more difficult than others, and it's, um... Yeah. 

[00:22:49] Emma Pickett: Can you give one example, if I'm not being too cheeky? 

[00:22:51] Kathryn Stagg: A big one is my musical career. I realized that I'm not the type of person that can sit in a room and practice for five hours, and actually that is okay.

But in order to be a successful performer, which is what I wanted to be when I was younger, that is what you have to do, and I could not do it. And I now, you know, at the time I just thought I was rubbish and couldn't do it and, you know, sort of got problems with that, and actually it wasn't that

at all. It's the fact that I actually cannot practice the same thing over and over again for several hours- Yeah ... which is what you have to do in order to be a top level performer and musician, so. 

[00:23:25] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That makes sense. But having said that, you're so talented. You do actually perform on the West End stage and all sorts of 

[00:23:30] Kathryn Stagg: places.

Not the West End. I haven't quite made it that far. But yeah, local, local theater, let's say. But yeah, so I keep my hand in, which is lovely, and it's, uh, it's much fun, which I enjoy.

[00:23:42] Emma Pickett: I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got The Story of Jesse's Milkies, which is a picture book from two to six-year-olds that really tells the story of little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways. Maybe there'll be a new baby sister, maybe his mom will need to practice parent-led weaning, maybe he'll have a self weaning ending.

It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we're there to support them through all of them, and also, we sometimes have needs too. Also on endings, we have Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child.

There are also chapters on different individual situations, like weaning an older child when there's still a baby feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation. Then we have Supporting Breastfeeding Past the First Six Months and Beyond, that's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond.

What are the common challenges, and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey. Then we have The Breast Book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14-year-olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is.

I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives. So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley Press website. That's uk.jkp.com.

Use the code MMPE10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful. It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you. Okay, let's think about breastfeeding.

Yes. Now, one thing I'm aware of is that if I say to you, "How did your neurodiversity change your breastfeeding experience?" You, you don't know, 'cause you don't- Yeah ... necessarily know what life would, might have been like in a different parallel universe, but I'm guessing you can probably, of all the hundreds and thousands of parents you've worked with, you probably have a sense of how neurodiversity or ADHD changes people's breastfeeding experiences.

[00:26:12] Kathryn Stagg: Yeah. 

[00:26:13] Emma Pickett: If I asked you to kind of try and generalize, which I'm guessing is impossible 'cause everyone is individual, what are some of the themes that come up? How does it seem to change people's breastfeeding experiences? 

[00:26:23] Kathryn Stagg: So some of the themes, 'cause I did, you know, pick quite a few brains on this as well, uh, 'cause I thought it was important it wasn't just me, um, and I do fit into this though as well, is that a lot of people actually start to learn about it before the baby arrives.

Now, we know we've got a big problem with engagement into antenatal education in our society, and a lot of people don't do any research, any reading, and they just assume breastfeeding's going to work. But what is interesting is for a lot of neurodivergent people is that they actually tend to actually look into it before the baby arrives, and they sometimes get quite over-interested in it, and hyperfocused on it, and it becomes incredibly important to them, which is fantastic 'cause then they're incredibly highly motivated to actually, you know, do what they need to do in order to, to be able to breastfeed.

Um, so that was, that was one thing. Now, back in the day I thought ... I had twins first. So back in the day I thought it was because I had twins that I had done this because, you know, there's two babies. I knew that breastfeeding probably wasn't gonna be straightforward, so I decided to read about it before I had them because they were twins.

I now realize I actually do this with everything. So I don't think it was just before they were twins. Uh, and I've come to realize that I like, you know, even we're away for a few days last weekend, I like to research where I'm going, and make sure I know all the things that I could see, and make sure I don't miss anything important, all that kind of stuff.

So actually, it probably wasn't anything to do with the twin side of things. But at the time I thought that's why I did it. Once breastfeeding is working, it really fits in really well with the ADHD brain because you don't have to plan, you don't have to make up bottles, you don't have to think in advance.

You just respond to what is happening, i.e., if the baby makes a noise, you put him on a boob. Yeah. And you don't have to think about it, and you, you know ... So that is the kind of the b- The positive side of ADHD and how it helps, I think, with- 

[00:28:16] Emma Pickett: Yeah ... 

[00:28:17] Kathryn Stagg: with breastfeeding. 

[00:28:18] Emma Pickett: And I'm guessing, and you shout at me if this is not correct, I'm guessing that for an ADHD parent, something like triple feeding must be an absolute freaking nightmare, that kind of level of complexity and having to operate on different levels.

[00:28:32] Kathryn Stagg: Yep. 

[00:28:33] Emma Pickett: Do you think that that's a fair statement? Absolutely. What are some of the, what are some of the things that probably are a little bit more difficult to get your brain- 

[00:28:38] Kathryn Stagg: Yeah. So the, the difficulties, one, one is that kind of thing. So if breastfeeding is not going well, this is where it gets challenging having ADHD, because if you do have to do sort of schedules, triple feeding, that kind of thing, that's really difficult from a, a kinda executive functioning point of view.

ADHD is really more about difficulties with executive function. That's one of the main problems, which- And 

[00:29:00] Emma Pickett: does that mean sort of organization? What do you mean when you say executive function? 

[00:29:04] Kathryn Stagg: Uh, ex- executive function is kind of organization and planning and prioritizing and, you know, all that kind of stuff.

So, so, you know, things that you have to do in everyday life, um, are a little bit more challenging. So being able to work out, you know, when you do this, you know, do you feed the baby first, do you pump, what do you do, how, when do you wash the bottles, you know, all this kind of stuff is very, very challenging, um, to organize.

So for that sort of thing, it's, it's very, very difficult. The other thing which was interesting that came up was actually the ability to ask for help as well seemed to be difficult for some, some people. Um, and part of that was organizational, you know, having to, you know, if you're having to be referred via Health Visitor and all that kind of stuff, then that's, that's really challenging.

And sometimes just being able to get yourself out of the house to a breastfeeding group or, um, you know, be able to reach out. There's something called RSD, which is called rejection sensitivity dysphoria. That's the one. Yeah. My brain went for a second. Which is when you feel a massive kind of emotional pain almost, I suppose, to actually fe- feeling of criticism or feeling of that you haven't done your best or you haven't- You know, y- you've failed, all this, you know, kind of stuff.

And so sometimes actually reaching out for support makes you very vulnerable to someone suggesting maybe you're not doing it right, or you're, you know- Mm ... that kind of thing. So that, that was very interesting, and I think I was very much like that. I actually got conned into going into my first breastfeeding support group by my midwife, bless her.

She was lovely, my midwife. And she went, "Do you know there's an opening ceremony going on for the new breastfeeding support group, um, in, in two weeks' time. I reckon if you go along you'll get in the papers 'cause you've got twins." This was back when we had newspapers. And the performer in me went, "Oh my God, get in the paper.

This would be really cool." And I went along to the opening, which my babies were three weeks old, three-week twins, managing to get there on time. Oh my goodness. That's impressive. I don't know how I managed it myself, but I was highly motivated to be in the paper. And, uh, met the beautiful Alison Spiro, who we know very well, and that 

[00:31:09] Emma Pickett: was the start of everything.

Alison is a legend. For anyone who doesn't know Alison, she's one of the UK breastfeeding legends, uh- Guru is what you call them ... counselor for many years, and, uh, yeah, an absolute star. 

[00:31:17] Kathryn Stagg: So yeah, so that's how I went to my first breastfeeding support group. I don't know how long it would've taken me to actually go if she hadn't done that, so that was lucky I think.

Um, but yeah. 

[00:31:24] Emma Pickett: So that rejection sensitivity dysphoria stuff ... Did I say that right? That- You did, yes ... that's, that must mean when you're already feeling overwhelmed, you're already hormonal. And I'll ask you in a minute about hormones play on top of that. The idea of having a conversation to talk about something you're finding difficult.

[00:31:40] Kathryn Stagg: And it's something that matters so much to you as well on top of it. Yeah. It ... That's the thing. So yeah, it is, it's really, really challenging, and I think it does sometimes prevent people from actually being able to access the, the support that they need. And I think it ... when we're supporting Parents as well, it's really important for us to always remember that, you know, they remember how you made them feel- 

[00:32:01] Emma Pickett: Yeah

[00:32:01] Kathryn Stagg: most of all. And so we need to make sure they understand that they are trying really hard. They're working really hard at this. And although it's, you know, possibly not working how they want it to be right now, they're doing all the right things, and you know, hopefully we'll start to see some improvement, and all that kind of stuff.

So it's just trying to really validate that, that, that it's not anything they're doing, 'cause, you know, it's, it's just ... It's really, really, really hard. You just feel, feel everything very strongly, I think. 

[00:32:26] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And the executive functioning stuff. There's sometimes when you're ... If you are a health professional or breastfeeding supporter, and you're meeting with a parent, you know, and I'm projecting a little bit here.

I'm guessing it, it might feel embarrassing if you have forgotten something or missed something, and you're worried that someone will perceive that as you not caring or not being a- Yeah ... the right kind of parent, so you end up kind of hiding that, or kind of ... And then if someone finds out you've, you know, haven't remembered to buy the right product- Yeah

even though you talked about it two weeks ago. You know, it ... You're just constantly worried about other people's judgment on top of everything else. 

[00:32:59] Kathryn Stagg: Yeah, absolutely. It's being able to be in the right place at the right time with the right stuff is basically what I always say as well. What we struggle with.

[00:33:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. So, so health professionals and breastfeeding supporters can help by, like, you know, nudging before an appointment, sending out reminders. You know, if someone's a private lactation consultant, no one's gonna mind if you remind them the day before or the morning, morning of. 

[00:33:21] Kathryn Stagg: I have a sneaky way of doing this, which gets around people feeling that I'm jud- You know, I'm, I'm

You know, as you said at the beginning where I, I would feel that it was, um, a bit, you know, like, not on to remind me, is that I, on the morning of the appointment, I send a text out to, uh, the mum, and go, "Looking forward to our appointment later. Can I just ask about what the parking situation is at your house?"

And I think to myself, that's gonna then remind them that it's actually happening, first of all. And they'll go and look in their calendar if they've forgotten. And also make sure that I know also where to park, which is useful for my planning as well. But it's just a little nudge. So that's quite a good tip if anyone's supporting parents, and they wanna kinda do it without making them feel that you're kind of having to organize them, if you see what I mean.

[00:34:00] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That's a good idea. And is it helpful to kind of write stuff down? I mean, I lo- lots of people who are in voluntary settings, for example, might make the odd occasional notes for a parent. Yeah. But perhaps they don't do it as commonly as somebody would in a formal lactation consultant setting. If you're an ADHD parent, is it handy to walk out with a, a set of notes on your phone, or

[00:34:20] Kathryn Stagg: It can be. I think it's, uh ... We have to be very careful about overwhelm, and doing things far too, in far too much detail. So I think a few points sometimes is what you need. I tend to ... As a lactation consultant, we tend to have to write notes, and what I do is I write notes straight after the appointment. I stick it in a, an email and send it to them.

But I also often will give Two or three things, maybe a link to buy something or an article that they would like to read, something like that. And actually text that to them instead so that it's there going ping on their phone, and then they can choose to read it then, or they can, you know, try and remember it later.

[00:34:53] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That's, that's a good ... Actually, notifications on phones sit there- Yeah ... don't they? And they wait for us to look at them. 

[00:34:59] Kathryn Stagg: I think the, the email reading, um, you know, long emails after an appointment, a lot of people don't actually read them. 

[00:35:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:35:07] Kathryn Stagg: So, so. 

[00:35:09] Emma Pickett: So you've given some, some handy tips. Anything else in the kind of tip department?

Let's think about tips, first of all, for the people who are supporting. Anything else for a breastfeeding supporter that you would want them to bear in mind if they're working with somebody with ADHD? 

[00:35:23] Kathryn Stagg: I think it's just to actually ask, basically to ask the parent what helps them and what they know about themselves and, you know, they

En- encourage them to feel empowered to actually explain how they function and what they need. That's, that's really the most important thing, 'cause everybody is so different in how they present and what they need. You know, it's very, um, we, we can assume things very easily if we're not careful, and sometimes that can be where you start offending people and, and such like- Mm-hmm

or doing stuff that you don't need to do, for example, as well. And so that's, that's the main thing really is just to ask them what would, what would be helpful. 

[00:35:58] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And I guess the flip side of that from the parent's point of view is as a parent feeling confident to say- 

[00:36:05] Kathryn Stagg: Yeah ... "

[00:36:05] Emma Pickett: This is what I'm gonna need."

[00:36:06] Kathryn Stagg: Exactly. So if we can encourage them to feel comfortable to do that, then that's great. 

[00:36:11] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And are there any kind of new techy things that are helping? Uh, like the world of AI has changed so much even in the last year. Yeah. Are you finding any tools that, like setting up reminders or getting AI to read stuff or summarize stuff, are you finding anything that's handy?

[00:36:25] Kathryn Stagg: A lot of people are doing that, the summary thing, which is fine as long as the original source is obviously evidence-based. So we have to be careful with asking, you know, AI about breastfeeding or about certain breastfeeding things because, of course, they take a snapshot of the entire internet, seems like the entire universe, and then make a kinda highlighted, you know, sort of what's, what's out there kinda thing about, about a topic.

And so sometimes some of the evidence doesn't come from the best source. But if they've read an article that, you know, is from a, a, a source that we, we know is good and they want to kind of use it to make it a bit easier to digest, I think that's a really good use of AI kinda stuff. And then all the kinda calendars and that kind of thing.

I mean, like, you know, I completely live on my calendar. I don't actually know how I would, how I survived. I used to have a paper diary, but it didn't go ping So I find the going ping ping really, 'cause I used to just forget to look in it and still miss everything even though I'd written it down. 

[00:37:21] Emma Pickett: Are there any sort of spec- specialized calendars or are you just using your bog standard one that comes on your phone?

Are there any particular technologies you'd recommend? 

[00:37:28] Kathryn Stagg: I'm just using the bog standard one that is on my phone. Um, I find it works fine for me. Uh, there are, there are some apps and things like that that are particularly des- designed for neurodivergent, uh, people. You can... It's got sort of color co- coding and timers and, you know, that's often more for doing sort of tasks and around maybe work and things like that as well that they work quite well.

But for parenting, I think especially if you're, uh, you know, a responsive parent, the baby's the best reminder, to be honest. It's, you know, I can look after a baby fine because it tells you wh- when they're hungry and they, they you know- Yeah ... you don't have to have a reminder for that. Um, that's why all my plants die is because I forget to water them-

because they don't cry when they're hungry. They don't cry. So the baby's the most useful. 

[00:38:09] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, I'm just wondering ter- ter- in terms of the sort of hyperfocus thing, do you think apps are more of a risk for, for neurodivergent parents? 'Cause I know we've, I'm sure we've- Yeah ... talked about this another time about how it can be a bit dangerous to get pulled into the apps world.

Te- Yeah ... tell us a little bit about what that risk is. 

[00:38:24] Kathryn Stagg: I think it, I think they could be slightly, you know, you do end up sometimes focusing on the data a lot, possibly, um, perhaps more with, with the neurodivergence. I don't know. I think it, again, it depends on the person. Some will be like, "I can't be bothered with this," and ditch it very quickly, and others will get a little bit hyperfocused in it and needing to write everything down and then look at it and worry about how many hours their baby's been feeding over 24 hours, and how much sleep they're getting and, and all this kind of stuff.

So it can feed into anxieties. Neurodivergent people are more likely to have postnatal anxiety and postnatal depression, so it's been shown anyway, and so I don't think sometimes these apps are actually not helpful from that point of view as well. So, so it's a matter of thinking to yourself, "Actually, is this useful for me?"

I think they're useful in the first week or two when everyone's asking you how many nappies your baby's done and, you know, how many times they've fed and all this kind of stuff, especially if there's any feeding issues and their weight gain and things like that. They can be useful, but I think later on they can get in the way of actually just kind of responding to your child really, so.

[00:39:26] Emma Pickett: Yeah, and developing confidence. Yeah, 100%. So we- you've touched a little bit on some of the positives around ADHD and, and the hyperfocus and the research and the, and the, you know, be- being really well-informed. I guess- The flip side of that is maybe that you, you're under a lot of pressure. Um, I know the idea of breastfeeding pressure is a phrase that we need to kind of question, 'cause where does that come from?

Yeah. But does that mean that when breastfeeding doesn't work out, we know that people are much more likely to get postnatal depression if their breastfeeding goals aren't met. 

[00:39:57] Kathryn Stagg: Yeah. 

[00:39:58] Emma Pickett: Do you think maybe we're gonna find people who are more likely to, to get very, very low mood if breastfeeding doesn't work out?

[00:40:04] Kathryn Stagg: Yeah, I think, I think the, the whole RSD thing is, is very much part of that as well, is that you're, you're more likely to feel things much more deeply. Um, and so that's one of the reasons why the postnatial, postnatal depression is, is a little bit more prevalent, I think, and especially if things don't go to plan, and especially if you've hyperfocused on them going to plan in the first place.

I think the hyperfocus is a, a, a kind of a mixed bag. It's really good in that it can actually help you kind of push through as well. So, a lot of people re- responded to my question. Basically, my question was how, how did your neurodiversity affect your breastfeeding? That's what the question was. A lot of people actually said that it was, you know, the, the, the hyperfocus was useful 'cause it made them actually research it, but there were a few that found it just far too overwhelming generally, and too much information.

And a lot of people were, were struggling with sitting down breastfeeding, which I was quite interested in. Uh, for me, I never... You know what? Actually, I did, because I was always doing something with the other hand. Even with the twins, I got breastfeeding hands-free quite quickly. So, so I would be doing sudoku or what...

This was before phones. Now, you know, with my younger ones, I was on the phone scrolling. This whole kind of not using your phone while you're breastfeeding thing that's, you know, been out there getting parents to feel bad about themselves 'cause they're, they're scrolling- Yeah ... on TikTok while they're breastfeeding, utter rubbish.

It's do what you need to do in order to stay sitting down and give the baby what they need. Do you know what I mean? So it's absolutely fine 

[00:41:29] Emma Pickett: to do that. Yeah, 100%. I remember Elena talking about playing a game on her phone, needing to be able to cope. I wonder whether neurodivergent parents are more likely to get, um, aversion.

Is that c- is that connected to that real struggle? 

[00:41:41] Kathryn Stagg: Absolutely, because one of the things with, if you're neurodivergent, is you tend to, you know, it's common to have a little bit more of a, a sort of sensitivities. Um, uh, so, you know, you can feel touched out a, a lot more and breastfeed aversion is, I think, is far more common.

I actually had quite severe breastfeeding aversion with both my singletons. I didn't breastfeed my twins long enough for it to kick in properly, um, 'cause I stopped just after a year with them, 'cause at the time I thought that that's what you're supposed to do. Uh, and then regretted it massively 'cause I trained as a peer supporter just afterwards, and there were loads of people still feeding.

And I was like, "Oh, I didn't know you could do that." So that was really annoying. Um, but I wonder actually whether I would have coped with it, uh, now- You 

[00:42:22] Emma Pickett: know, the combination of twins and 

[00:42:24] Kathryn Stagg: aversion, that would- Twins and, and the aversion- ... that would have been- ... and tandem feeding, 'cause tandem feeding makes it a lot worse for a lot of people as well, if you're feeding two babies or a n- a toddler and a baby.

[00:42:32] Emma Pickett: So how did the aversion kind of manifest for you? What, what, what was it like? 

[00:42:36] Kathryn Stagg: So it, it started after a year with both of my singletons. Um, my youngest one was a, was an avid feeder, so it was a bit more prevalent with him. My, my older one was not quite so keen. You know, he was... He still fed a lot, but it wasn't, wasn't that much.

It was on demand. So it started with that, and really annoying bedtime feed that goes on a bit long, and you're just like, you just wanna get them off and throw them across the room. That's what it felt like. And then 

[00:43:07] Emma Pickett: my skin was kind of like . 

[00:43:07] Kathryn Stagg: Mm, right. And I like ... So the, the, the thing was, like, I had to work on being able to shorten the feed or starting a bit later, was what I'd started do- doing actually, 'cause I, I decided I was trying to get him to go to sleep far earlier than he was ready.

[00:43:22] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I've just, just had a conversation with somebody about that. Yeah. Work out when did they go to sleep yesterday, and start the bedtime routine 15 minutes before. Yeah. Yeah, 

[00:43:30] Kathryn Stagg: exactly. 

[00:43:30] Emma Pickett: It's that really, really long bedtime, and I'm guessing if you're somebody who's spent your day masking and coping and dealing with overwhelm- Yeah

that, that bedtime is even more messed up. And then 

[00:43:39] Kathryn Stagg: they're messing around, and the twiddling of the other nipple, that was totally banned from the beginning. Now, with twins, trust, I didn't do it 'cause there was another baby on the other side, so that was really useful. So I didn't experience that with them.

But with my singletons, they started doing it, you know, eight, nine months, like they're doing. I was just like, "I really can't cope with this." So that was just every single time from the start, move their hand, and actually that they learnt quite quickly not to do that, 'cause that was something I absolutely couldn't cope with.

Again, at the time, I had no idea it was 'cause I was neurodivergent. But I had read about it, and so I kinda knew, knew, you know, I was a breastfeeding counselor by the fourth one, so, um, knew quite a lot to that point. Um, then night feeds started again, and those ones where they were, he was permanent attached.

You know, the ones where they just wanna flutter suck all night. Yeah. That was something that was absolutely intolerable. And so, again, I had to work quite quickly on feeding him, but ending the feed myself and using other, you know, tools to help kinda settle him if he'd stirred a bit kinda thing. 

[00:44:33] Emma Pickett: Okay. So the supplements that people talk about, people talk about magnesium and- Yep

vitamin B complex. That's not gonna help you at this point. You have this- 

[00:44:40] Kathryn Stagg: I mean, I started taking magnesium after I'd stopped breastfeeding, interestingly. Uh, just because, um- But what it was actually for headaches around my cycle was why I decided to try and use it. But what I realized when I was taking magnesium is that actually I found touch, other people's touch much more easy to deal with.

Mm-hmm. So it was like a side effect, and I went, "Darn it, I probably..." 'Cause I had read about it and just hadn't organized myself enough to try magnesium. Basically. Uh, I do wonder whether it might have helped actually. Um, so I think it, it, I, I do think it can help. So I think it's worth a try definitely. Yeah.

And the other thing is then just distraction. So I used to just distract myself. I used to try and make a sensation somewhere else on my body. So, you know, you can sort of press your nails into your, the palm of your hands, and it kind of hurts a little bit, and it just takes the sensation away from breastfeeding to another part of your body, which can help you disassociate it from it a little bit.

And then I used to do a lot of sort of playing on phones, and wiggling feet, and all that kind of stuff as well to kind of try and, try and stop it happening. But it was, uh, there were certain feeds where it was really bad, so in the end, I ended up weaning the feeds that were difficult for me, and then keeping the ones that were not difficult for me.

And so, you know, it was, it was a very sort of gradual process of that, and managed to end up keeping feeding for over three years for both of them. 

[00:46:02] Emma Pickett: Wow, that is, that's, uh, such an achievement. When you're battling with aversion and you, you get to that point, you should feel super proud. Did you experience any weaning blues?

I'm guessing 'cause you went quite gradually, maybe not. Um, but I'm wondering whether there's more likely to be weaning blues from people who have neurodiversity. 

[00:46:20] Kathryn Stagg: I don't know. Don't know actually 'cause there's not a huge amount of research into it anyway, is there? So I, I got it personally with night weaning, but not with stopping completely.

So when I reduced- quickly when they, I night weaned, which was about two and, two and a quarter, two and a half, something like that. Um, and that was because of the aversion that I night weaned. And when I did night wean, although he was still feeding quite a lot, that was the time where I actually felt the, the weaning blues more than the actual stopping completely.

I don't know if it was just, it dropped quite quickly, possibly- Okay ... the amount of breastfeeding. 

[00:46:53] Emma Pickett: That's interesting. And I'm gonna ask you a super personal question that you can absolutely tell me to get stuffed if you want to. What do we know about the relationship between perimenopause and ADHD symptoms?

That, 'cause perimenopause is already doing- 

[00:47:05] Kathryn Stagg: Yeah ... 

[00:47:05] Emma Pickett: anxiety and brain fog and, and disorganization stuff. Does, do people's symptoms kind of go through the roof or we don't know enough about? 

[00:47:12] Kathryn Stagg: There's a big, yeah, uptake in being diagnosed with, around perimenopause, and it's, yeah, it does absolutely heighten everything, I think.

I've got a very good s- friend of mine, a school friend of mine, who is just about to do a PhD on this, so it's- Oh, wow, okay ... gonna be interesting. You 

[00:47:26] Emma Pickett: know, you know the right person. That's fascinating. Okay. 

[00:47:29] Kathryn Stagg: I'm looking forward to that. Um, but yeah, there's, there is quite a lot of w- women in their late 40s, early 50s who are being diagnosed, not just because of their children, but also because they are finding the, the, the perimenopause symptoms particularly difficult to manage, and it seems to just exacerbate all of your ADHD symptoms as well, so.

Um, I, I went through a very strange few years, uh, a few years ago, so, where I just really couldn't cope with anything at all. It was, uh, it was, it was quite interesting. So I think it absolutely has quite a big effect. 

[00:48:02] Emma Pickett: Okay. So when you are diagnosed, what does the NHS offer? Is there a coach that's on an NHS thing?

Are you offered, um, you know, technologies? And, and let's talk about medications as well. What, what might you be offered if someone is diagnosed? 

[00:48:17] Kathryn Stagg: My experience is that the only thing I was offered was medication. I asked about whether there was any sort of coaching, things like that, that was available, and they said no.

So I don't know if that's just local here or whether that's the same everywhere. Not quite sure about that. Uh, I think it would be very useful. Um, I did trial medication. For me, the side effects were too difficult to manage for the benefit that it gave me. It did give me a benefit, but the si- ... I found the side effects very difficult.

So for me, I haven't continued. I 

[00:48:48] Emma Pickett: only did a short trial. What kind ... Again, t- tell me to get stuffed if this is too personal, but what kind of side effects were you managing? 

[00:48:51] Kathryn Stagg: Um, I was getting headache, very bad headaches, and I, I suffer from headaches anyway, and I just- I just thought I can't actually do this.

I mean, they are supposed to get better once you've been on it for a while. But for me, I find them very challenging generally anyway, and, and I, I get migraines quite a lot. And, um, for me, making myself have what was almost a migraine every single day once I was coming down- Mm-hmm ... off the medication was not- 

[00:49:15] Emma Pickett: Blah.

Okay, 

[00:49:16] Kathryn Stagg: that makes- ... not much fun. So that was one thing. And I didn't feel like myself. Although I felt like I could do things a lot better, which was very... It was, it did do what it said it would on the tin. 

[00:49:27] Emma Pickett: So when you say do things a lot better, do you mean that you're not moving from one task to the next, not trying to balance five- Yeah

plates, plates at once, that sort of thing 

[00:49:36] Kathryn Stagg: or- I was having a day at home on the first day that I did it, and I managed to prioritize doing the washing and getting it hung out, and also managing to eat my breakfast, and also starting work, and managed to order everything in the right order and do it all sensibly rather than doing three things at once and not finishing any of them.

So that was, that was a positive. So I can see why people take it for that, 'cause it did make life... My brain was a lot clearer, and I could actually rationalize a lot easier. So yeah, it was, it was good from that point of view. But yeah, for me, the, the side effects. And I, I don't know if I'm just very self-aware or something like that, but I just didn't feel like myself.

It was very strange. And my husband also said, "I don't like you very much on these medications." Oh, 

[00:50:18] Emma Pickett: whoa. An honest man. We like h- we like honesty and authenticity. 

[00:50:23] Kathryn Stagg: Uh, I think I am probably autistic as well, although I'm not formally ADHD, and I, I'm not formally diagnosed with autism. And I think my ADHD masks a lot of my autism traits, and I think when the ADHD traits were suppressed, my autistic traits, and apparently I was very, very blunt, and he didn't like 

[00:50:41] Emma Pickett: it very much.

Oh, wow. 

[00:50:42] Kathryn Stagg: That's really interesting. So that was another reason. Not that I wouldn't take them just because of his- 

[00:50:45] Emma Pickett: But you don't- But yeah ... you didn't necessarily notice that. You weren't necessarily- 

[00:50:48] Kathryn Stagg: Um, no, I did notice it. Yeah, I did notice it. Yeah. And I actually thought to myself, "I'm a person that works with very vulnerable people here, and I have to be really careful what I say.

And if I just say what I think all the time, this might not actually work very well." So that was one thing. I don't know. That's how it represented- Okay ... myself. This is my personal experience. So yeah, for me, it wasn't really a thing. Uh, there are lots of people who find medication really, really helpful.

[00:51:12] Emma Pickett: And can you medicate while you're breastfeeding? Let's, this is the mil- million-dollar question. What are the options? 

[00:51:17] Kathryn Stagg: You can. There are some safe ones. I think it's, uh... What is it? I'm gonna read it, 'cause methylphenidate is the one that- Mostly people use when they're breastfeeding, so it seems to not have, uh, too much of an impact on anything.

The Breastfeeding Network's drugs and breast milk fact sheet on it is the place to go for this. It ... I had a good read of it this morning, and it is really comprehensive. 

[00:51:37] Emma Pickett: Okay. Brilliant. I'll put that in the show notes. And that's, is that literally just called ADHD and breastfeeding? 

[00:51:42] Kathryn Stagg: Uh, yeah, so you know, it's one of their fact sheets and it just says ADHD.

[00:51:45] Emma Pickett: Okay. I'll, I'll put that in the show notes. 

[00:51:46] Kathryn Stagg: They also have a, um, the Breastfeeding Network have a, um, an article on breastfeeding and ADHD as well, which is actually linked in the fact sheet. So you get, there's a clickable link in the fact sheet that you can go through to it, but you could be able to search it up as well.

And actually, that was really, really good as well. So, um, um- Okay ... I read that also this morning in my hyperfocus revising for today. So- 

[00:52:09] Emma Pickett: I am- ... absolutely ... I'm very appreciative. Excellent. Okay. Yeah, there's so many great resources in the Breastfeeding Network drugs section, and- 

[00:52:16] Kathryn Stagg: Yeah ... 

[00:52:16] Emma Pickett: it does not, does not surprise me.

But I 

[00:52:16] Kathryn Stagg: think the thing is that you can have medication when you're breastfeeding, 'cause there are so many people who, who commented actually on my thread when I was asking, saying that they haven't wanted to try it yet because they're still breastfeeding, and they're, and they're worried about what effect it would have on, on their breastfeeding, their baby, or their milk production, and all this kind of stuff.

So i- it is absolutely, it's worth having a good read. And of course, always if they need, if they've got other questions that aren't answered in the fact sheet, they can contact the, the Drugs and Breast Milk, um, service on the Facebook page, or, um, email them or whatever as well, if they've got further questions that they're worried about too.

So I think, you know, that's probably the, the best thing to do is to just do a bit of reading up about it and decide what you feel comfortable with. So when, when you're medicated before you have a baby, you tend to come off it in pregnancy, and a lot of people then restart during, you know, once they, their baby has arrived.

And so you can, again, make decisions about when is the best time to do that as well. So obviously, the older the baby, the less effect the medication does normally have as well. So- Okay ... so there's, there's various different things that you can think about. 

[00:53:16] Emma Pickett: Okay. Thank you. You, so you've touched on how ADHD and autism, there's a bit of a Venn diagram overlap there.

So we've also got sensory processing stuff, which is gonna- Yeah ... make, talk about how that affects breastfeeding and, um- 

[00:53:28] Kathryn Stagg: So sensory processing, either people are hyper sensitive, so hyper with an E-R, which means they're more sensitive, or hypo sensitive, which is with an O, which is less sensitive. And so hyper sensitive th- for things like touch is that, that kind of thing is what can cause aversion, can cause increased pain thresholds, that kind of thing.

And also just kind of sensory stuff, you know, you know, being in a hostile environment with lots of people, and beeps, and noises, and bright lights, and all that kind of thing as well can be very, very difficult. Hypo sensitive people, they tend to struggle a little bit with their own ... I'm thinking my, my, you know, my son's a little bit like this, with their own sort of way they feel.

They can't actually Until it gets really bad, they can't recognize things happening in their bodies or whatever. 

[00:54:17] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:54:17] Kathryn Stagg: Um, and so sometimes that can have a little bit of a, an impact on things as well. What, 

[00:54:20] Emma Pickett: things like not recognizing mastitis symptoms 

[00:54:23] Kathryn Stagg: and things like that? Yes. You know, or even maybe having a suppressed pain threshold or, you know, even just things like not, not realizing they need a wee and they've just sat down to breastfeed, and then they become very desperate.

Uh, and if they, you know, if they'd been a bit more sensitive to their insides working, so, you know, they would've realized actually it's a good idea. So sometimes just making it, just little routines like, "Go into the loo before you sit down and breastfeed", can make a massive difference to how comfortable you find it and all that.

You know, there's all sorts of little, little things like that as well, not necessarily just the big stuff- Yeah ... that, that can be useful. 

[00:54:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah, for sure. So you mentioned that you've got your, your friend who's gonna be doing their PhD, which is super handy. Um, are there any other research questions that you think we really need to get a grip on and we're really missing, whether it's anything to do with ADHD or particularly ADHD and parenting and breastfeeding?

[00:55:11] Kathryn Stagg: Um, I mean, there isn't a huge amount in, uh, ADHD and parenting particularly. You know, I, I'd like to see just more research generally. I think they're, they're starting to look at it in around birth and, um, I read a, a, a study this morning that was a kinda overview of some other studies around, um, the birth environment and kinda how hospitals can make it more neurodivergent friendly.

And I think the thing is for all of these kind of situations is if you make it better for neurodivergent people, you're gonna make it better for everybody as well. Yeah. So it's not just that you don't have ... You know, it's not just you have to change it for a small minority of people. Actually, that would be better for everybody anyway.

It would just be even better for the people that struggle more with it. 

[00:55:55] Emma Pickett: I've, I've watched The Pit. Have you watched any of The Pit? No, I 

[00:55:59] Kathryn Stagg: haven't. Um, 

[00:55:59] Emma Pickett: so The Pit has a, a character who is neurodivergent and, and she has a sister who's neurodivergent, and there's this business about h- the sister comes to the hospital and, and the doctors have learnt how best to support her by turning lights down, closing curtains, you know, speaking more sensitively.

And- Yeah ... and who doesn't want that in a hospital? Who- Exactly. ... who, who wants the bright lights and being disturbed every two seconds? And, and, and d- as you say, it's for e- everybody really benefits from that environment- Yeah ... that is, is helping you to get to that calmer place. And 

[00:56:30] Kathryn Stagg: it's the same in education, just to go off on a, that tangent again, is that if we could get it right for our neurodivergent children, all children will benefit from it as well.

That's the other thing. 

[00:56:37] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:56:38] Kathryn Stagg: Yep. 

[00:56:39] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that makes good sense. Um, what about families and friends? So if somebody ... No, so probably before they've had kids, they probably are aware that their partner is neurodivergent. 

[00:56:49] Kathryn Stagg: Mm. 

[00:56:49] Emma Pickett: What would you want to say to the partner of somebody who's about to have a baby with somebody who's neurodivergent?

[00:56:55] Kathryn Stagg: I think is to encourage them to ask for help, um, and support and, or, you know, help with the organizational things. So, you know, I'm sure as lactation consultant yourself, Emma, we quite often get partners doing the booking of appointments and things like that as well. That is super useful, you know, having somebody else to do all the admin side of- Mm

of healthcare and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, having people that can step up and help with that and just be, you know, so that we can be on our little baby bubble and not have to think about it basically. Asking what they need. This is always the thing. It's just making sure that you're asking what the, what the actual breastfeeding parent needs What they would like help with basically, 'cause again, we can't make assumptions, uh, that they were gonna need this, that, and the other because they might actually be actually okay, but they might need something, help with something completely different that we hadn't thought of.

So it's- Yeah ... it's, you know, the same with everybody, isn't it? Is that we can empower the, the parent themselves to actually be able to ask for help, and then the people that are there to help, whether that be professionals or family and friends, whatever that, that they are, um, then, you know, asking what they can do so to speak.

Yeah. 

[00:58:04] Emma Pickett: And I'm guessing the similar way we just talked about perimenopause changing things, you know, the baby blues or being hit by those hormones in the first couple of weeks plus sleep deprivation. 

[00:58:14] Kathryn Stagg: Yeah. 

[00:58:14] Emma Pickett: Presumably that means that people's traits are going to possibly come out more. They're not gonna have the energy to mask.

[00:58:21] Kathryn Stagg: Yeah. 

[00:58:21] Emma Pickett: Absolutely. Partners may, may see things that they haven't necessarily seen before. 

[00:58:25] Kathryn Stagg: Yeah. Absolutely. It is a ve- It's, the whole thing is just incredibly overwhelming and, you know, I think, um, it's just, you know, giving space and listen and, you know, all the stuff that we are supposed to do all the time.

Basically trying to do that as much as we can. 

[00:58:41] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:58:42] Kathryn Stagg: And you know, yeah, most people go slightly crazy when they first have a baby for a week or two. That's quite normal. You're just gonna lose the plot slightly, don't you? Um, and the hormones just take over and we're, we're very emotional and very, you know, um, worried about everything and anxious and the whole, that kind of stuff.

Yeah. So it just, it just exaggerates it all a little bit more. 

[00:59:01] Emma Pickett: And sensory processing stuff if you're dealing with pain or if you've got a C-section scar or- Sometimes you just can't deal 

[00:59:06] Kathryn Stagg: with another thing. This is a, you know- 

[00:59:08] Emma Pickett: Yeah, sitting down and it hurts to sit down. That just an, as you say, an extra, extra thing.

And I guess in the same way we were saying before about, you know, everyone benefits in a hospital setting, everyone benefits in education setting. If all lactation consultants say, "How can I help you? How do you want me to communicate to you?" Yep. Um, you know, "What are the things that are gonna support you to absorb this information?"

It's what we should do with everybody, isn't it? It's what- Yes. Absolutely ... you know, what's your c- what's your communication style? Is this working for you? Do you want me to adapt something? Um, it's, it's what everyone should, would do with everybody really. So it shouldn't be anything wacky or different or strange.

[00:59:39] Kathryn Stagg: Yep. 

[00:59:40] Emma Pickett: You've been really generous with your time, Kathryn. I can't believe an hour has just flown by. Um, w- w- is there anything we haven't talked about that you're thinking, "Oh my God, that's so obvious that we haven't talked about that," or anything that came up in your survey with other parents? 

[00:59:53] Kathryn Stagg: Yeah. Not really.

I think it was, um, tho- those that found breastfeeding really difficult struggled a lot with, with this, I think 'cause, you know, and so- and some- Didn't last very long and were, you know, suggesting that it was the, their neurodivergences w- that was making it more challenging for them as well. So things like, you know, having to do triple feeding and accessing support and, you know, there was one mum who found everything very difficult and, and just, you know, basically moved to expressing bottle feeding quite quickly 'cause it was all too painful and all too overwhelming.

She couldn't sit, sit down for that long, and she was like, you know, so... And, uh, um, and then with her second child, the pumping was obviously too difficult, and so moved to formula much more quickly. So, you know, it's just worth validating these journeys as well, is that sometimes it is that, does ... ADHD does actually cause some quite significant barriers to breastfeeding that we need to acknowledge as well on, you know, and, and for others it works and helps a little bit sometimes as well.

So, you know, it's, it's a very much two-edged thing as most things are. 

[01:01:01] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Any favorite resources that you think we should put in the show notes? I guess we haven't got a huge amount because people aren't doing the research, but is there anything you particularly value? Any groups or any Facebook groups or...?

[01:01:12] Kathryn Stagg: Where I got a lot of this information from was from, there's a mum, a UK Mums with ADHD Facebook group was where I got, where I plundered for information

Okay ... from people, which was quite good from a support side of things. Um, I believe there's a book or two out, but of course, I cannot think what they're called. But I think- Okay ... there, there might be one that's been published fairly recently. Um, I believe there's a couple of people working on some neurodiversity stuff as well that hopefully will be published so- 

[01:01:42] Emma Pickett: Okay

[01:01:42] Kathryn Stagg: um- 

[01:01:44] Emma Pickett: Watch this 

[01:01:44] Kathryn Stagg: space. You know, I think it's one of those areas, isn't it? Is that we're, as more knowledge, we're getting more knowledge that, that then start, stuff will start to be a bit more readily available to people. 

[01:01:53] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. It will be a few weeks before this episode goes out, so we might, if we pop some things in the show notes if anything occurs to us- Yes.

[01:01:59] Kathryn Stagg: I'll 

[01:01:59] Emma Pickett: have a look ... that, that's where people can look. Thank you so much for your time, Kathryn. I'm really- Thank you ... really appreciative of it. Um, you've been incredibly honest on a personal and a professional level, which I think we've all benefited from, and I'm incredibly grateful. Thank you. 

[01:02:12] Kathryn Stagg: Thank you.

[01:02:17] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at emmapickettibclc and on Twitter at makesmilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist, and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.