Sophie's story - aversion and a natural term journey

This week, I’m talking to the lovely Sophie from North London about feeding her two children, Sadie (7) and Zach (4½), and what aversion and older child weaning can look like. Sophie describes training with the Breastfeeding Network, from an in-person 12-week helper course to a rigorous six-month supporter course, and her plans for helpline and drop-in support. She shares Sadie’s breech birth by C-section, pain that began at six weeks, later support with latch and a posterior tongue-tie division, and a long period of feeding on one side. During pregnancy with Zach, Sophie developed intense breastfeeding aversion and emergency-weaned Sadie. Zach’s VBAC attempt ended in a C-section with some complications and COVID-related separation, but breastfeeding went smoothly. Zach’s feeding tapered gradually with the help of some boundaries set by Sophie. His last feed was just three weeks before our conversation.

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, by going to https://bit.ly/JKPbooks and using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

Resources mentioned - 

Breastfeeding Network https://www.breastfeedingnetwork.org.uk/get-involved/train-to-be-a-registered-volunteer/

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end, too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. Today, I am talking to Sophie, Sophie from North London. We've just worked out that she lives in the neighborhood where I used to live when I first came to London. And we're gonna be talking about her breastfeeding journey with her two little people, Zach and Sadie.

And we will be touching on aversion, and we're also gonna be talking about a natural ending to a breastfeeding journey, and what child-led weaning looks like for anyone who's not experienced that. Lots of people say, "What's that like?" And we're gonna be talking about that today as well. Thank you very much for joining me today, Sophie.

I really appreciate it. 

[00:01:18] Sophie: Thank you. 

[00:01:19] Emma Pickett: You're a BFN supporter. You've just finished your supporter training. Yeah. For anyone who's thinking about doing that, tell us what was that like, what did it consist of. Give us a little plug for BFN, Breastfeeding Network. 

[00:01:29] Sophie: Well, first thing to say is I, I really enjoyed it.

I think with all this sort of seven years kind of, of, of breastfeeding, I felt like I'd learnt so much and gained so much knowledge, and wasn't entirely sure, you know, what I wanted to do with it. And I was sort of googling around on my laptop, and there happened to be a, um, this sort of first level course they call a helper course.

And there was a deadline, which was the next day, to apply for it, and it was, um, is in Islington, which is near where I live. Um, and I sent off my application and, and I got a place on the course. Um, and I thought it was just a good opportunity to put the feelers out. You know, is this the sort of thing that, you know, is this the direction I want to go in?

And, um- The first day, the course was, um, two hours once a week That's in 

[00:02:22] Emma Pickett: person, is 

[00:02:22] Sophie: it, you're going- That was, that was an in-person course- Okay ... that first level. Um, and I think it was for 12 weeks, and over the summer. And yeah, I mean, it turned out for me, I, I could have sat there and talked about breastfeeding all day.

I really, really loved it. Um, so I was like, "Yes, this is for me. This is great." And then pretty much I think about a year later, an advert came up for the, their s- their next level course, which is called a supporter course. And, um, yeah, as we're speaking now, I've j- I've just finished that a couple of weeks ago.

Um, that's a longer course. I think it's about six months. 

[00:02:59] Emma Pickett: And it doesn't mess around, does it? I mean, I've talked to people doing that training, and you're doing written assignments and getting them submitted for marking. That's right. Um, I mean, they've got a ... Breastfeeding Network, I will say, have a very high standard.

No- not to put anyone off because they're gonna help you and support you to go through the training, but it's definitely quite a rigorous bit of training. And then you have ongoing supervision as well- Yeah ... while you do your supporter wo- work. What was the hardest thing about doing the course? 

[00:03:25] Sophie: Um, I would say, yeah, I mean, the assignments, like you said, you know, the, the first level, uh, that helper course, you, you have a workbook that you kind of work through pretty much while you're there, and then you can complete it after.

Whereas, yes, like you said, this one, there's these written assignments, and they are quite ... You know, it's not just Q&A. It's quite reflective. You have to kind of really think about yourself and any kind of unconscious feelings and, um, yeah, dig a little bit deeper. So, um, yeah, that could be quite tricky. And yeah, I think, like i- in the actual, the course itself, um, this one is on, um, Zoom because it's, it's across the country people are joining.

And yeah, again, you have to kind of dig deep in your discussions and kind of think about what might be triggering for you and how that can get in the way of your supporting and, you know, when you're supporting other people who are coming from a completely different set of circumstances and beliefs and, um, how we deal with that really.

[00:04:23] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. So lots of reflection and making sure you've debriefed on your own experiences, and you're gonna be able to come to a place where you can support parents. 

[00:04:32] Sophie: Yeah. 

[00:04:32] Emma Pickett: And also knowledge and knowing where to get information and knowing how to signpost. And the Breastfeeding Network are also really careful to make sure both the helpers and supporters know that they are part of an interlinked team of people ar- you know, around the country who all offer different skills.

So you're never asking, answering a question that you're not qualified to answer. 

[00:04:51] Sophie: Yeah. 

[00:04:52] Emma Pickett: So yeah, th- three cheers for the Breastfeeding Network training because it's really excellent. Um, the in- Islington team, that's a project in Islington, which means Islington Council have paid the Breastfeeding Network to run the commission service for breastfeeding support, which is why there's training in Islington.

If you're interested in training with the Breastfeeding Network, find out if there is a project in your area. If there isn't, there may still be an option to do some training online as, as you've experienced Um, so yeah, so just have a look at the Breastfeeding Network website and we'll, we'll put that in the show notes.

What do you want to go on to do with that training? Are you gonna be a helpline girlie? Are you gonna do some face-to-face stuff? What's your plan? 

[00:05:26] Sophie: Yeah. Well, so I have been, um, supporting ... So I've sort of, sort of moved around a bit. So initially I was supporting in Islington. Then at the same time I've actually started supporting, um, in Camden, um, but it's not the Breastfeeding Network, it's actually NHS.

So I go to pretty much weekly or fortnightly drop-ins. Um, they have their breastfeeding drop-in. And then, yeah, the supporter course is to train you up to go on the helpline. So I haven't started on the helpline yet, but yeah, that's absolutely how I'll be sort of, um, planning to be kind of giving back to the Breastfeeding Network on the helpline.

I've done a bit of volunteering and, um, sort of observing initially really on a postnatal ward, um, as well. So yeah, that could be another avenue I, I go down as well. Uh, it's a bit harder to get into the hospitals 'cause they've got their own, um, checks and hurdles to jump through to get, to get cleared.

Yeah. Uh, but o- once you're in, you're in, which is good. But yeah, it does, it's a little bit longer, um, than just sort of joining, yeah, one of the Breastfeeding Network drop-ins. 

[00:06:31] Emma Pickett: Yeah. You don't just rock up at the door and say, "Hey, I'm Zinnia." Absolutely not. But that's the way, that's what we want. We want people in hospitals- Yeah … to be protected.

Yeah. So, so the helpline is, is, is actually great fun. It's really good fun. I haven't answered calls for a little while because I've got a dog that barks. Um, so I've been doing web chat, um, which is another option, and people also do social media messaging. Mm-hmm. Um, but I have to say there is nothing as special as picking up the phone and someone's got a three-day-old baby, and they are really wobbly, and they don't know who to talk to, and at the end of the call someone says Gosh, I c- I feel so much better 

[00:07:07] Sophie: Mm.

[00:07:07] Emma Pickett: And you know that that c- conversation has changed somebody's life. You know that they're never gonna forget that conversation at that point in their lives. It's such an honor, um- Mm ... being a breastfeeding supporter. But, but there's something pretty magic about the helpline as well. Um, it, it's very, very special, and the Breastfeeding Network and the Association of Breastfeeding Mothers, um, work together as a team to, to answer calls and train volunteers.

Um, so p- plug over. Thank you for- ... en- indulging me, Sophie. Let's talk about the other aspects of your life. Um, tell us about your little people. 

[00:07:37] Sophie: So I've got Sadie, who's seven, and Zach, who's, yeah, four and a half. And yes, breastfed both of them. Sadie had, uh, a few bottles here and there for the first few months of her life.

Um, you know, she's my first child, just sort of getting to grips with the whole thing, um, and thinking, you know ... I, I suppose it's quite overwhelming at first. You feel like it's quite a lot of responsibility being the, you know, the sole person feeding. And anyway, she had her own mind and, and quite soon rejected bottles, to be fair.

Um, and then I did end up just breastfeeding. 

[00:08:13] Emma Pickett: Let's go back to the beginning of Sadie. Let me slow you down. So- Yeah ... before you had Sadie, what did you know about breastfeeding? 

[00:08:20] Sophie: That's a really good question. Yeah, good place to start. So I would say I don't really come from, um, a family of, uh, breastfeeding.

Um, my mum didn't, uh, breastfeed or couldn't breastfeed, and my sister also struggled with that. I had read quite a lot about it, and I ha- I felt, um, yeah, I just felt like it would be really important. I'd- I'd read about the sort of, you know, the hormonal impact and the kind of protective factors postnatally in terms of, um, mental health and emotional wellbeing.

And I was really, um, I kind of just really ... I- I know, uh, I know it's not, it's not completely foolproof, but I very much kind of put my faith in that, that it would be protective. I had a few concerns about kind of potential, uh, postnatal anxiety or depression. Um, and yeah, I think I just put a lot of, a lot of, um, not pressure, but, uh, y- yeah, I- I- I just held a lot of importance into breastfeeding basically- Yeah

from what I'd read. So I, I really, really did want to, to be able to do it. 

[00:09:26] Emma Pickett: That word pressure's an interesting word, isn't it? Because that's never a good word. No. No one says, "Woo-hoo, pressure." But what is the word we need to say, it mattered to me, it was important to me- Mm ... I'd done my research. It, it had a significance.

[00:09:40] Sophie: Yes. 

[00:09:40] Emma Pickett: We need, we need a better word for saying, I knew it was significant, and I was motivated to make it work, without s- without using the word pressure. Let's, let's work on that ourselves and brain- brainstorm a new word. Um- Mm. So, so how was birth with Sadie? What were those early days like? 

[00:09:55] Sophie: So, um, she was breech.

She had her feet down, and I was very much advised to have a C-section, and I'm not really one to push back on these things. So I said okay, um, and I had a C-section. Yeah, obviously I'm mindful of anyone listening who's pregnant who's going to go into a C-section. Uh, but at the same time, I, I did find it quite traumatic.

I didn't love it, to be honest. Okay. 

[00:10:21] Emma Pickett: Okay. Is that because you... it was sort of taken away from you, or the actual experience of having it itself was 

[00:10:28] Sophie: tricky? The experience. I'm not great with medical things. I think, um, I think it's just quite an odd one, really. Like, it's such major surgery, and you're awake for the whole thing.

I don't know if there's anything else we, we can compare it to. 

[00:10:40] Emma Pickett: There's that brain surgery where you have to play the violin while they're doing things to your brain, you know? 

[00:10:44] Sophie: Yeah. Yeah, like deep brain 

[00:10:46] Emma Pickett: stimulation. Li- li- little bit rare. Yeah, so they've gotta check that your brain's still working while they fiddle around with bits of your brain.

Yeah. Let's, let's... Just the same as a C-section. Very similar. Um, so that- Yeah ... so that sense of that, being in that environment and seeing surgeons and- Mm ... and seeing gowns and masks and, and knowing what was happening, that, that didn't feel great if you've got medical issues. It didn't 

[00:11:05] Sophie: feel good, and it, it made me, um, feel really out of control.

You know, like, my life is in your hands right now and, um, a- and my baby. And yeah, um, but it... But once it was done, it was do- You know, I just wanted it to be over sort of thing. 

[00:11:20] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:11:21] Sophie: I very much felt like that. 

[00:11:22] Emma Pickett: And, and do you... Pa- a partner? Is your partner with you? Do you have a partner? 

[00:11:24] Sophie: Yes, I do, and he was there.

Um, and yeah. He, he, you know, he, he was supportive, and he, he tries to be quite, um, he's... We're, we're quite different characters, and he's a lot more sort of, um... He, he's not as emotional and, and I think he- He doesn't sort of wanna get caught up in it with me 'cause then that might make me more stressed out.

So he- he'll just sort of be like, "It's fine, it's fine. You're okay," sort of thing. 

[00:11:54] Emma Pickett: Okay. So he's sort of, sort of steadying you. 

[00:11:57] Sophie: Yeah. 

[00:11:57] Emma Pickett: Um, okay. 

[00:11:58] Sophie: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And yeah, so afterwards, uh, I had a really, really lovely w- midwife, which I feel like is luck of the draw, but she was so sweet, so lovely, and was, you know, quite light-hearted about getting Sadie started breastfeeding.

Like, you know, let's give it a go. And it is quite odd that first time, you know. You've never breastfed before. I know in theory, yes, it's the most natural thing, but, you know, as we know, it's not, not really natural doesn't necessarily mean easy. 

[00:12:30] Emma Pickett: For sure. 

[00:12:31] Sophie: And it is quite strange because that isn't how we've used our breasts or nipples up until that point.

Um, but yeah, Sadie started feeding and milk came out. I was shocked. Um, and I hadn't done any colostrum harvesting. I hadn't done any preparation, which I know sometimes, you know, can be the advice, especially with a C-section, but I was very lucky. Or when I say milk came out, I sp- yeah, it was colostrum obviously.

But yeah, there was something there, and she was great. She was, she was actually a small baby. Um, smallish. She was 2.8 kilograms. But she was, yeah, hungry and ready to go. 

[00:13:09] Emma Pickett: Okay. Brilliant. So you were able to feed quite quickly afterwards. 

[00:13:12] Sophie: I was able to qu- feed quite quickly. All was well until about six weeks.

[00:13:18] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:13:19] Sophie: And I was in excruciating pain. It was like cutting glass on my nipples. 

[00:13:26] Emma Pickett: Oh, no. So, so you had a pain-free period- 

[00:13:29] Sophie: I did ... and 

[00:13:29] Emma Pickett: then, and then it started to get painful. 

[00:13:31] Sophie: It started to get really painful, yeah. And I suppose it, it's quite interesting reflecting on it because obviously this is the sort of stuff I have to remind myself of when I'm supporting other mums.

I didn't want any support. I thought, I'm feeding her, it's fine. I don't want anyone to come and tell me that what I'm doing is wrong. I don't wanna hear it. And I really, really resisted until basically every feed ... I had to cry through every feed. It was ridiculous. 

[00:14:00] Emma Pickett: Okay. That's interesting. I don't think I've heard anyone say that at six weeks, that I didn't want anyone to help me.

I wanted to push through. D- is that because you'd had enough of health professionally type people standing over you? What do you think was happening for you in that moment that you didn't want any help? 

[00:14:17] Sophie: Well, I think a couple of things. I think I had my mum, who was actually super encouraging and, like I said, d- didn't breastfeed, and I think she was sort of learning through me and was from, objectively, she was looking from the outside going, 'You're doing amazingly.

This is brilliant. You're doing it.' Um, so keep going sort of thing. Like, you don't need anyone to tell you what to do because you're doing it. And then the other thing is that I had had friends who had had some difficulties feeding, and they had all been told that their babies had tongue tie and that they needed to have the tongue tie division.

Okay. And I thought it was all a bit convenient, you know, well, I know what's gonna happen. I'm gonna go and see someone, they're gonna tell me she's got a tongue-tie, and then I've got to do all these things, and I didn't wanna hear it. 

[00:15:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah. No, I c- I can understand that, and I think even anyone who's trained in tongue-tie assessment and division will say we have got a bit of a problem because of lack of training- Mm

in some areas. Some people will jump to a tongue-tie diagnosis because they're not fully qualified to look at positioning attachment. Mm. So we've got this weird thing with tongue-tie where we've got both an over-diagnosis and an under-diagnosis exactly happening at the same time. I think anyone would say, though, if you were pain-free for six weeks- 

[00:15:32] Sophie: Mm

[00:15:33] Emma Pickett: that that would be very unlikely to be a tongue-tie situation, even the keenies who really want to diagnose tongue-tie- Mm ... something else was going on. Did you ever get a sense of what was happening? 

[00:15:41] Sophie: Well, funnily enough, so, so then it got worse and worse over the next two weeks, um, until she was, yeah, about eight weeks old, and then I did go and see someone.

I, uh, I think I must have maybe seen the health visitor and they said, "Oh, she doesn't have tongue tie." Then I took her to the doctor, they said she didn't have tongue tie, and then I did go and see a lactation consultant, and she did diagnose a posterior tongue-tie and said- Okay ... "That's probably why it hasn't been picked up on."

To be fair, I got some really good support, um, on the latch, which did take a lot of the pain away. Um, but by that point, uh, because she was about eight weeks old, it was sort of like, "If you're gonna do the tongue tie, this is the age to do it." So I, I went, I got referred back to, um, the hospital where I'd had her, and they did the tongue-tie division there.

[00:16:37] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:16:38] Sophie: But I did fee- I feel like, um, the way they did it, I think it was it, for me, for, for the mother I was at the time, was very smart. So the practitioner sort of described everything that could be happening, which would mean there was a tongue tie, and w- would mean, uh, it was, you know, difficult for me and difficult for Sadie.

Um, before she even looked in her mouth. So she already kind of painted a picture of everything I'd gone through, rather than someone just looking in her mouth and going, "Oh, there's the tongue tie, I'm gonna cut it." 

[00:17:14] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:17:15] Sophie: It made me feel a lot more, uh, confident in the fact that it, yeah, it needed to happen.

[00:17:22] Emma Pickett: What was your experience of having the procedure done, and did you feel it helped? 

[00:17:26] Sophie: Um, yeah, the procedure definitely helped. I, I think, like I said, I, I had some really good support with, um, her latch. So that probably got me at least three quarters of the way there in terms of not feeling the pain anymore anyway, and I obv- I carried on with, with everything I'd learned after the, the tongue tie division as well.

But yeah, I, I didn't have pain after that. You know, maybe she got, you know ... I know as babies get bigger, their mouths get bigger, like that could have all been part of it. The process itself, I feel like there's a theme here, I didn't like it. Um, you know, I, I just seeing her cry and, you know- Yeah ... that sort of thing.

[00:18:04] Emma Pickett: I'm guessing, I can guess, I'm not, won't name it, but I can guess which, which hospital you're probably talking about. So- Mm-hmm ... you are in the room when it, when the procedure's being done. Yeah. Somebody's got a pair of round-ended scissors. 

[00:18:14] Sophie: Yeah. 

[00:18:14] Emma Pickett: It's, it's very quick. Yes. Um, and you feed hopefully, uh, straight afterwards.

[00:18:19] Sophie: I did, yeah. 

[00:18:20] Emma Pickett: But I guess you weren't enjoying watching her being held down and, and watching that. It 

[00:18:24] Sophie: was just that, that's the thing. She was fu- she is very much her personality. She's a free spirit, and she was furious, just being sort of wrapped up and held down and whatever. The cut itself probably wasn't even, yeah, that big a deal, but yeah, for sure, um, she, she was very angry.

[00:18:42] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So I'm glad you were pain-free anyway, whatever the cause of, whatever the reason for the being pain-free, I'm glad you were pain-free. And then you carried on breastfeeding solid as a rock. I did. Any other particular challenges before we hit the time when Zak enters the world? 

[00:18:54] Sophie: No, it pro- probably it would just be stopping.

At, at some point, and I've had this with both of them, we moved on to just feeding on one side. I must have one side that makes more milk, or it's just easier for me or easier for the baby. 

[00:19:09] Emma Pickett: How early was that happening with, with Sadie? 

[00:19:11] Sophie: I'm trying to remember. Well- It's probably around when she could kind of talk because she used to call it Big Muck.

Well, she called it Muck, so it's called Big Muck, and that was her ... Like, it sounds like Big Mac. And that was her preference, Big Muck. 

[00:19:28] Emma Pickett: And, and Little, and Little Muck was not doing nodding the 

[00:19:30] Sophie: job. It just absolutely not. She'd be like, "No, want Big Muck." 

[00:19:34] Emma Pickett: Okay. Wow, that's interesting. So do they look visibly different?

Would it, if 

[00:19:38] Sophie: they did- They did, yes. Yes. Okay. I think because of that continual, um, yeah, feeding on one side, one side just sort of stopped. 

[00:19:49] Emma Pickett: Okay. So gradually that, that preference sort of naturally morphed into- It got bigger and bigger ... more stimulation and more preference- Yeah ... and more milk on that side and even less milk on Small Muck.

Um- Yeah. Yeah. And s- lots of people sort of slip into uni-boobing, which is what we call it, um, um, without even realizing why it's happened. Sometimes it's because, you know, at night one side is easier than the other. Sometimes it is connected to arm dominance and left-handed and right-handedness, and sometimes it's just we're all naturally a- asymmetrical, really normal to have one side producing less than the other.

[00:20:18] Sophie: Yes. 

[00:20:19] Emma Pickett: And, and little people having an opinion about it. 

[00:20:21] Sophie: She did. Yeah. And it happened again. It did happen again with, with my son as well, so. 

[00:20:25] Emma Pickett: Okay. Same side. Would've been kind of cool if it was the other side, but no, same side. Um- Yeah. 

[00:20:29] Sophie: Unfortunately Big Muck prevailed, yeah. 

[00:20:32] Emma Pickett: So, so Sadie is prodding along through toddlerhood and- 

[00:20:36] Sophie: Yeah

[00:20:36] Emma Pickett: you're gonna get pregnant with Zach. Is that something that you found difficult? Lots of people worry about conceiving when they're breastfeeding. Uh, how frequently were you feeding Sadie when you did get pregnant again? 

[00:20:47] Sophie: Um, I mean, it felt, I, I'd say both my kids, um, were booby monsters, so you know, a lot.

She loved her milk, and she was having it quite a lot, um, you know, through the day and night. Um, so yeah, fairly frequently. And no, I, I didn't have any problems conceiving. Until Sadie was two, I didn't want another baby. I was quite adamant, like, 'Gosh, I'm not doing this again. This has been very, very difficult.'

[00:21:15] Emma Pickett: So you were actually thinking you'd never have another baby? 

[00:21:18] Sophie: I did think that. Okay, okay. Yes. Um, it, you know, it was a bit of, you know, a point of, uh, friction at home because my husband really did want another baby. And then something hormonally shifted. Ju- just the same way how I felt I really wanted a baby the first time round, something shifted, and I really, really wanted another baby.

And we were lucky in that, and I got pregnant with no problems, um- Okay ... wh- whilst breastfeeding. 

[00:21:44] Emma Pickett: Okay. I think it's really important to highlight that because I think there are lots of myths out there about lactation and fertility, and pe- some people assume you absolutely have to end breastfeeding. Not the case at all.

Um- No ... it's, it's so individual. Um, there's an- I have another episode called Lactation and Fertility with the fabulous Carol Smith, where we go into a bit more detail on this. But you were feeding through the night. Yes. You didn't have any big blocks of time. You weren't at work, and you got pregnant. 

[00:22:06] Sophie: Yeah, so I went back to work for about eight weeks, and then we went into lockdown.

So I was at home, and that probably made ... As in I was working from home with Sadie around, obviously, and I think that probably really helped in some senses, um, me continue, you know, to breastfeed her as much as she wanted. 

[00:22:24] Emma Pickett: Yep, yep. The common lockdown experience. 

[00:22:27] Sophie: Y- yes. Yeah, it, it, it- 

[00:22:28] Emma Pickett: The Zoom meeting with the toddler just out of view.

Yes. 

[00:22:31] Sophie: That's right. We've all been there. Booby monsters loved it. Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, my periods came back when she was about 18 months old, so it was quite, yeah ... I, I was quite a long time without periods Um, but then, 

[00:22:45] Emma Pickett: yeah, 

[00:22:46] Sophie: yeah 

[00:22:46] Emma Pickett: Yep Got pregnant Your body, body knew what it wanted, and- 

[00:22:48] Sophie: Yeah ... 

[00:22:49] Emma Pickett: along came Zach.

And while you were pregnant, what were your plans? Did you think about tandem feeding? Were you kind of leaving it open? What were you feeling? 

[00:22:58] Sophie: Yes. I definitely left it open. I learnt, you know, from first time motherhood s- to stop making plans. What will happen will happen. But yeah, I, I definitely ... I'd read about tandem feeding, and I was kind of prepared for that, let's say.

I thought, "That's fine. I'll feed her, and I'll feed the newborn." And I'd read so many lovely stories about, you know, how bonding it can be for the older one with the little one and things like that. But yeah, when I was about six months pregnant, around that time, it just became more and more unbearable. I did definitely have, um, aversion.

[00:23:31] Emma Pickett: For anyone who's not experienced aversion- Yeah ... so you're just, probably just about to ask that question- No, go on ... but, but for anyone who's not experienced aversion, um, can you put into words what it feels like? 

[00:23:41] Sophie: I'd say the first sign is I thought she was biting me. I used to, you know, say to her, "Sadie, open your mouth," and I'd pull at her chin to pull her chin down more.

And she'd be like, "Oh, yeah." You know, her mouth would be like wide open. So it felt like she was biting me, um, and she wasn't. 

[00:23:58] Emma Pickett: So pregnancy, nipple sensitivity. Yeah. Exactly. So lots of people will experience sensitivity in pregnancy. And I'm sorry that was, that was your story. And so obviously sensitivity and pain is going to trigger that kind of psychological response, that kind of aversion response.

[00:24:12] Sophie: Yes. And then the other one was sickness. So I suppose just like pregnancy nausea, it, yeah, it just made me feel really sick. It made me, yeah, it made me feel really nauseous, basically. And really sadly, and, you know, I don't like saying this because I loved breastfeeding, you know, it's like the snuggliest cuddle you can have, and it made me feel gross.

I felt really creeped out. Um, I felt like a sort of extreme version of touched out. I was like, "Ooh, get off me. You know, get your hands off me. Just stop touching me," kind of thing And I felt very sad for Sadie Yeah Uh, because, you know, that had not been how we fed. You know, we both enjoyed our breastfeeding relationship or whatever.

[00:25:00] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:25:00] Sophie: Um, and, you know, I guess nothing had changed for her, but it had changed for me. And I, you know, I'd done all my reading and listening and, you know, had always heard about breastfeeding and that, you know, it ends where either you want it to or the baby wants it to. 

[00:25:15] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Did it kinda creep up on you, or did you have one day where you were like, "Oh my God, this is, this is not working"?

[00:25:21] Sophie: It creeped up on me, but, but intensely. I'd say within a week or two weeks I was like, 'No, no, no, no, no. I, I can't do this anymore." And, um, again, I'd read so much about gentle weaning, and I had all these plans of, you know, reading a book and, uh, y- you know, reading books together and making a memory box and all this stuff.

And in the end, uh, a- and I'm very gentle, you know, I've ... We, we co-s- you know, we, we sleep in bed together. I'm actually terrible at setting boundaries and things like that. But this was one thing I was just like, 'You've got to stop. You've gotta get off me." And, and it was- Yeah ... it wasn't nice, and there was crying.

[00:25:59] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So did you make a decision where, "Right, I'm not gonna be breastfeeding tomorrow. This is it. We're done"? 

[00:26:05] Sophie: Yeah. Well, I, I do a, I do a countdown, you know. I'd say, "Right. You can have 10 seconds", and the 10, you know, I'd do it really, really fast. And then I think by the end of the week I was just like, "No, no, no, no, no."

Um, and her dad had to cuddle her to bed or cuddle her to sleep or whatever, uh, because if it was with me, she'd, she'd be too upset. 

[00:26:24] Emma Pickett: Okay. So really urgent emergency weaning, essentially. Essentially, it was You, it was, it was a, an emergency situation. And, and you mentioned that your partner kinda took over the cuddles.

When were you able to go back and do the cuddles? 

[00:26:38] Sophie: Actually, not for ages, because that was only, like, three months before Zach was born, and then when Zach was born. And in that time I thought, "I don't know if I'm gonna be able to breastfeed again", because the thought of it for those next few months was horrendous.

You know, I st- a- and then as soon as he was born, the other lot of hormones kicked in and I loved it again. You know- Yeah ... it was right back to the, you know, those lovely feelings. 

[00:27:03] Emma Pickett: Phew. Um, 

[00:27:04] Sophie: let me just- Which was 

[00:27:04] Emma Pickett: great ... take you, let me just take you back to that rough moment- Yeah ... if you don't mind. 

[00:27:08] Sophie: No, 

[00:27:08] Emma Pickett: it's fine.

I think that's really important to hear that experience- Mm ... of having had a version of pregnancy and actually the whole concept of breastfeeding feeling a bit ick and difficult. And it must've been a bit scary to think, "Gosh, m- maybe I won't be able to breastfeed. Maybe I won't be able to do this." Um- 

[00:27:25] Sophie: Mm.

[00:27:25] Emma Pickett: I can't imagine what that feels like. That must've been pretty scary. Did you actually pr- think about, "Okay, I need to research formula feeding"? Did you actually go down that, that route? 

[00:27:35] Sophie: I didn't go down that route, but I, I definitely had those thoughts because so much of my parenting was linked with breastfeeding.

I definitely thought, "I don't really know how to parent without my boobs." Because that's every nap, every bedtime, every time I'm soothing. You know, obviously all the practical stuff, just being out and about. I just always had, like, my magic milk boobs with me. Um, so I definitely, yeah, I definitely did have those thoughts of, you know, "I'm not really sure how I'll do that."

But again, I thought, "Don't make plans. Let's just see what happens. See what happens when Zack's born, and see how we go." 

[00:28:12] Emma Pickett: And what was your relationship like with Sadie in those three months? You mentioned that your partner, I mean, you sort of implied that you didn't go back to co-sleeping with Sadie. Is that, is that right?

[00:28:21] Sophie: Well, one of us would've done. She's nev- nev- she, you know, she's seven now. We still lie with her until she falls asleep, and she still gets up in the night and gets into bed with us at some point Um, so she's never slept on her own, but it would've been, yeah, what, maybe for the first couple of weeks I sort of kept away and then went back and- 

[00:28:42] Emma Pickett: Okay.

[00:28:42] Sophie: Yeah 

[00:28:43] Emma Pickett: But you were able to go back. So when- Yeah ... I talked about your partner taking over cuddles, it wasn't like you literally physically stayed away from her for three months, um- 

[00:28:49] Sophie: No, no, no, no, no, no. She wouldn't have allowed that. No, she was attached to my hip. Yeah. 

[00:28:55] Emma Pickett: And how did she get on? Obviously, that original ending of breastfeeding must've been really tough for her f- you know- Mm

understatement. But how did she end up coping, and how do you feel your relationship was at the end of your pregnancy? 

[00:29:07] Sophie: I was really lucky 'cause Zak was born in September, and her nursery closed, closed, um, for the whole of August. They didn't have any other holidays, but they just had that one month in August.

And I took my mat leave and holiday or whatever early so that we'd have August together, and that was lovely. We had all of August together, and she would s- she was still napping at that point. And I'm not a natural napper unless I'm pregnant. And so we'd have a nap every day together through August. Um, we went out and about to the zoo and, you know, all the usual kind of summer activities.

We weren't gonna go on holiday 'cause I was massive and very, very pregnant as baby coming in September. So yeah, we just hung around in London together, and it was lovely. Yeah, really nice. 

[00:29:53] Emma Pickett: Good. And then did you think, gosh, maybe she'll re- restart breastfeeding again? Or no, that wasn't even on the cards 'cause you weren't even sure you were gonna be feeding Zak.

[00:30:01] Sophie: I, again, had read that that is a possibility, that they see the baby feeding, feeding and they want it, but I'd already decided in my head that I would say no to her because I just didn't want to kind of reopen it. Yeah. Um, I thought, you know, we've come this far. I can keep, I can keep saying no sort of thing.

And just kind, you know, just hold a line and say, "Oh, you know, it's for babies," or, um, and just offer her something else, um, instead. And it did happen on quite a few occasions. That she, that she did ask when she was breastfeeding. She'd ask. Yeah. She would ask. There was one time actually where I'd, uh, I think I maybe had pumped a little bit or I was experimenting with a Haakaa.

Um, sorry, I'm not sure if we can say brand names. It's okay. Yeah. The, the silicon, the one-piece silicon pump. One-piece 

[00:30:47] Emma Pickett: thing. Yep. 

[00:30:48] Sophie: Yeah. And so there was a bit of milk in there. And I don't know if this was just bad coincidence or what, but she drunk the whole ... I said, "You can have it if you want." She drunk the whole thing and then had a quite loose tummy for the rest of the day.

[00:31:03] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:31:04] Sophie: I don't know if that's a coincidence. 

[00:31:05] Emma Pickett: No, it could well be. I mean, breast milk is a fantastic laxative. That's, that's, that's what it's for. Um- 

[00:31:10] Sophie: Right. Yeah ... 

[00:31:10] Emma Pickett: would definitely make sense. Yeah. 

[00:31:12] Sophie: Um, so that maybe put her off a bit. 

[00:31:14] Emma Pickett: Aha. That's, that's useful. I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books.

So we've got The Story of Jesse's Milkies, which is a picture book from two to six-year-olds that really tells a story of little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways. Maybe there'll be a new baby sister, maybe his mom will need to practice parent-led weaning, maybe he'll have a self weaning ending.

It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we're there to support them through all of them, and also we sometimes have needs too. Also on endings, we have Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child.

There are also chapters on different individual situations like weaning an older child when there's still a baby feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation. Then we have Supporting Breastfeeding Past the First Six Months and Beyond, that's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond.

What are the common challenges, and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey. Then we have The Breast Book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14-year-olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is.

I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives. So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley Press website. That's uk.jkp.com.

Use the code MMPE10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books, and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful. It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you Tell us about Zak's birth.

How did that go, and what were the early feeding experiences like with Zak? 

[00:33:26] Sophie: So little bit more complicated here. Um, I was encouraged to and wanted to try to have a vaginal birth. And so, yeah, just sort of gave, gave that a go. I was in labor for about eight, nine hours with contractions obviously getting stronger and stronger.

I had to be on the labor ward because of, um, well, you know, this is the hospital guidelines because I'd had a, um, previous cesarean, um, and they want to do monitoring. And, uh, yeah, I, I, I couldn't take the pain. 

[00:34:04] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:34:05] Sophie: It was ... I, I found it way very, you know, obvious- yeah, painful. And, um, I was, um, given an epidural, and then things started to slow down, and then there was a kind of few kind of murmurings of, you know, not sure about the baby's heart rate, and, you know, it's sort of going up and down or maybe he's, he's in distress.

And then obviously that kind of worried me a bit. And then I think I was on the epidural for about four hours, and they just said, "You know, it's not progressing." And they were kind of encouraging me to have a C-section because they were saying, I think that if they'd ga- given me the sort of synthetic, um, like an, an induction- Mm-hmm

that there is a risk of, um, uterine rupture- Yeah ... which is obviously very dangerous. Yeah. So I, I decided to go for the C-section in the end. 

[00:35:01] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:35:02] Sophie: But unfortunately, um, they cut my bladder, um, in the C-section. Oh, 

[00:35:07] Emma Pickett: Sophie, I'm so sorry. That is- 

[00:35:09] Sophie: Yeah. So, and, and this was sort of COVID light times, um, which I'll come to in a bit.

But yeah, so I, uh, my husband was there. He, they, he was allowed to be there for the delivery, but essentially, um, the moo- the mood in the room changed, um, as soon as they realized what had happened. As I'd already explained, I really don't enjoy C-sections, um, and really wanted it to be over. And they said, well, they'd already-- Zach was out at this point, but they weren't allowed to continue to do anything until the urologist came.

I was in a panic, and they kept saying urologist, and I kept thinking they were saying neurologist. And I was like, "Has something happened to the baby? Something happened to me?" Oh, no. Yeah, it was very panicky. 

[00:35:56] Emma Pickett: That's a prime example where someone should have come over to you and said, "Right, y- I just need to check, Sophie, that you understand what's happened."

And no, and it doesn't sound like they had, they had the capacity to do that. They were busy- 

[00:36:06] Sophie: No ... 

[00:36:07] Emma Pickett: worrying about what was gonna happen next. 

[00:36:09] Sophie: Exactly. And then what happened was is they, they did have to wait for the u- urologist because they're not allowed to do anything until they come and, um, you know, take a look.

Um, but he, uh, he didn't come for 20 minutes 

[00:36:23] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:36:24] Sophie: So I was lying there for 20 minutes, which felt like 20 days. I was- Yeah, I bet. Yeah, I just couldn't-- I really couldn't bear it, but I was obviously stuck. Um, so it was very difficult. 

[00:36:36] Emma Pickett: And Zak is in your partner's arms? 

[00:36:38] Sophie: Yeah, Zak is in my partner's arms, and I, I do reflect on it and think, "Well, you know, maybe if I'd had him on my chest, you know, would it have calmed me down?

Would it have distracted me?" But I was actually the same with Sadie. I, I didn't want to hold them until it was all done and dusted. 

[00:36:55] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I understand. 

[00:36:56] Sophie: Uh, yeah, I just couldn't. I just needed to kind of focus on what was happening. 

[00:37:00] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I think in that moment, you are absolutely allowed to do whatever feels right, and if you need to focus on your own regulation- Mm

and, you know, feel that sense of just interior focus, I think everyone would understand that. Just out of curiosity, where was Sadie while you were giving birth? Did you have family looking after her? 

[00:37:16] Sophie: I did. Yeah, I was very lucky. Um, my parents came, and they looked after her. Um, it was kind of all hands on deck.

She was quite a feisty sort of two-and-a-half year old, so everyone was like panic stations. But actually, she did really well. She was fine. So yeah, they were at home with her. So, 

[00:37:34] Emma Pickett: uh, t- tell me to get stuffed if this is too personal, but when you cut somebody's bladder- 

[00:37:39] Sophie: Yeah ... 

[00:37:39] Emma Pickett: you s- you stitch it up, and then it's okay?

Or what happens next? 

[00:37:43] Sophie: That's it. Yeah, yeah. So the urologist came and said she needs to go under general anesthetic. And I said, "Thank God. Just knock me out. You know, I don't want to be in my head anymore. I wanna wake up, and I'm-- this is all over," sort of thing. And that's pretty basically the last thing that happened.

Someone put a mask over my mouth, and I went to sleep. 

[00:38:03] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:38:04] Sophie: Uh, uh, my husband and, and Zak had to leave the room because at that point it's, you know, sort of surgical, um, environment. So they were, they were taken out and put in another room or whatever, and I had my surgery. I think it was, I don't know, maybe an hour or something.

My temperature spiked in surgery. They weren't really sure what that was about. Um, so when I came out, I had a fever like I've never had. I was dripping with sweat. At this point, it was like midnight, and the doctors came to try and sort of debrief with me, but I kept falling asleep. And then they said that my partner had to go home, uh, because it was COVID, and he's not allowed to stay.

[00:38:41] Emma Pickett: Okay, that's not helpful. Um- 

[00:38:43] Sophie: No. 

[00:38:44] Emma Pickett: And, and so Zak is next to you. You're li- so Zak is staying and he's going. 

[00:38:48] Sophie: That's right, and I'm on my own, essentially. And they had to move me to the close observation unit, which is one-to-one care, because they didn't know what this infection temperature spike was and needed to keep an eye on me.

So yeah, it was all quite- 

[00:39:02] Emma Pickett: Oh, my goodness ... nuts. I very much doubt that the, the people looking after you were thrilled about the fact that your partner went as well. I mean, th- having an extra- That's the thing ... adult to look after a baby makes their lives a lot easier. 

[00:39:11] Sophie: Absolutely, and I'd say that was a theme of my experience that, you know, if he'd been allowed to stay, yeah, you're just not...

You know, I, I, I didn't necessarily have the best experience and that, you know, I was asking for help, and I, I did get a comment from one of the midwives, you know, "I can't just be helping you. I've got 14 other women to look after." And, you know, I thought, "Well, if my husband was here, I wouldn't be asking for your help."

But I know they, they were staffed, and I was staffed. Oh, I feel for everybody 

[00:39:37] Emma Pickett: in that environment. Yeah. I mean, you, you can imagine how absolutely frazzled she must have been to say that. 

[00:39:43] Sophie: It, yeah. 

[00:39:43] Emma Pickett: Because, because that has- Absolutely ... no value. I mean, it's not like- Well ... you're gonna be going, "Oh, I'm terribly sorry.

I, I could have obviously done all this by myself and I've just, I'd just like, you know, fancy some company." Yeah. Um, the fact that she said that really shows how she was struggling and understaffed and, oh, what a, just a nightmare for everybody. 

[00:40:00] Sophie: Yeah, it was. It was. Um, and I, I did, I did get a, a debrief session with the, um, with the hospital after because I was quite traumatized with my, the birth and, and the aftercare, um, or lack of.

I'm 

[00:40:16] Emma Pickett: really sorry. 

[00:40:17] Sophie: Yeah. I had a few bad, um, experiences with different, different midwives, basically. But anyway, eventually I was allowed home. And 

[00:40:27] Emma Pickett: so were you able to breastfeed him? I mean, what was it like in those early, early hours if you're recovering from a sort of double whammy of surgery and- 

[00:40:34] Sophie: Yeah

[00:40:35] Emma Pickett: more than one of your bodily systems is not quite as, as you'd want it to be? I mean, how, how are you able to care for him? Were you able to breastfeed or? 

[00:40:42] Sophie: It was ama- I, I s- he's like my therapy baby. He was the dream baby. He was bigger than Sadie. He was 3.6 kilograms, so like a good, good little chunk. And hungry and just got on with it.

You know, maybe I, obviously I kind of knew what I was doing, and he really knew what he was doing, and he was lovely 

[00:41:03] Emma Pickett: Oh, yay, Zak 

[00:41:04] Sophie: He was lovely. He slept for about a month of his life. My, my mom questioned if he even had eyes because he never opened them. Um, I don't know if, yeah, I don't know what happened there, but he was just a very sleepy, very hungry little bubba, and yeah, he, um, he just fed and fed 

[00:41:24] Emma Pickett: So w- so when you say he was sleepy, he was that kind of sleepy where you can still feed and sleep at the same time- Yes

'cause some sleepy babies are really- True ... a struggle and very stressful, but it sounds like he was the perfect kind of sleepy where he was, he'd wake and feed and go back to sleep 

[00:41:37] Sophie: and- He'd wake, he'd do a solid feed, and then knock back out again. Yeah. He'd like feed for like half an hour, super efficient, got the job done, um, and went back to sleep again.

Whereas with Sadie, sorry, it's kind of going back and forth a bit, but yeah, one, one of the reasons why the, the tongue tie was suspected as well is that she was very fussy, and feeds could last, you know, up to an hour and, you know, maybe that was affecting that, you know, she wasn't able to get milk effectively.

Um, she wasn't able to do that transfer, whereas he was just really hungry, and yeah, doing a good job. 

[00:42:12] Emma Pickett: So Sadie's back to nursery in September- Yes ... once you'd had Zak, so you didn't have to have both of them at home alone- 

[00:42:19] Sophie: Yes ... 

[00:42:19] Emma Pickett: the whole time. 

[00:42:20] Sophie: Yes. 

[00:42:21] Emma Pickett: How, how did you find life with newborn and toddler? Was she preschooler, toddler, or was it 

[00:42:26] Sophie: two-year-old?

Yeah. She was, yeah, two years, nine months when he was born. Um, yeah. I well, it's so hard to think back about it now 'cause I suppose it's all a blur. I think, um, it's one of those things you just go through it, and then you look back and go and think, "Oh gosh, that, that was really hard." She was actually brilliant.

I think we were all very worried about how she'd cope, and actually she did amazingly. She really loved him and was very good with him, and Yeah, I ... It's really hard to remember 

[00:42:59] Emma Pickett: Yeah, don't worry. I'm not asking for precise dates. Um- No. Yeah, I, I watched an Instagram video the other day about this young woman who has this special cond- condition where she remembers every single day of her life- 

[00:43:10] Sophie: Wow

[00:43:11] Emma Pickett: like, like watching a film. And you can say like, you know, "22nd of October 1999," and she will literally go all the things that happened in history, all the things that happened to celebrities, all the things that's happened in her own life. That's not a blessing, actually. Let's ... Being able to forget the blur is maybe not such a bad thing.

It's true Um- 

[00:43:27] Sophie: The one thing I will say, I remember saying this to people, they'd say, "Oh, what's it like having two?" And my- both my husband and I would say, "It's not like, it's not double the work. It's an extra third," is what we felt like. Okay. So it wasn't like 200% more, it was just an extra bit. And then, you know, I'd say, "Well, I'm already running a bath, so might as well put two of them in."

Or, you know, obviously when he was a bit older, you know, I'm already cutting up snacks, so now there's less wastage 'cause he can have the snack as well. Less going in the bin. That sort of thing. 

[00:43:56] Emma Pickett: Yeah. You mentioned that he was your therapy baby, so- 

[00:43:59] Sophie: He was ... 

[00:43:59] Emma Pickett: so from the very beginning you knew that that aversion wasn't gonna be a problem, even in the hospital- Yes

as a, as a ... And do you remember being conscious of that? Like, "Oh, God, here we go, breastfeeding," or, or you were in so much of a blur you didn't even realize that's what had happened? 

[00:44:13] Sophie: Exactly. Didn't even realize. I think I, I was on a lot of like, uh, painkillers and antibiotics and whatever had gone on with this infection, and I just sort of went into autopilot and put him on.

And I felt really lucky, um, I think especially given the circumstances and everything I'd gone through and the COVID and not having people there, um, my husband there, you know, if it had been my first baby, it may have been quite different for me. Um, but because I, I was sort of confident in what I was doing and, you know, thank goodness he was healthy and hungry and it meant that, um, I, I was fine.

But, you know, when you're on that po- they eventually transferred me to the sort of general postnatal ward, and you hear all the babies crying obviously in the day and in the night, and, you know, new moms who are quite lost and also don't have their partners there, and I really felt for them. I, I called one over at one point and she came and sat with me 'cause I said, "I can't get up to come to you, but if you're mobile, you're welcome to come and sit with me."

Aw. 

[00:45:13] Emma Pickett: See, you were a- We had a chat ... BF supporter in, in- ... nukero, even in those days. Um, I bet that really, really meant a lot to her. Yeah, that must have been a tough moment for everybody. 

[00:45:23] Sophie: Yeah. 

[00:45:24] Emma Pickett: Let's talk about Zach's ending. So you, when did you last breastfeed him? 

[00:45:29] Sophie: I think about three weeks ago. 

[00:45:31] Emma Pickett: Okay. And before we talk about how the ending happened, how are you feeling post, post-weaning?

I 

[00:45:37] Sophie: think I, I feel okay about it. Um, I probably haven't really thought about it too much 'cause then it might make me a little bit sad, but No, on the whole I feel, I feel pretty good and, you know, like I said, he's four and a half, and I feel like that's, that's okay 

[00:45:55] Emma Pickett: Damn right it's okay. Um, but it can still be okay and you can still have a bit of a wobble.

You d- you wouldn't- Yes ... describe yourself as experiencing anything like weaning blues or feeling more low or more irritable or anything that you'd describe

[00:46:10] Sophie: as- Oh ... a symptom. I mean a lot of those. I am, I am in my early 40s, so there's, there's many reasons to feel a lot of those things. But yes. No, I don't think particularly, and I do, I would also say, and I, I know we'll go on to talk about it, but it's been a very slow tapering off, so there's no sort of like going off the cliff edge.

You know, it was very- Yeah ... it, it really, really slowly tapered down. Funnily enough, two days ago, I thought he'd sort of forgotten, but two days ago he, he did ask to feed, and he did get quite upset, and I'd say it was probably about a good 10 minutes of like little bit of a, a tantrum about that. 

[00:46:46] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay.

[00:46:47] Sophie: But again, like I said about with Sadie, I, I just, I really did hold the line there 'cause I thought, "No, if I let you go on, uh, well, I just don't, you know, I just think we're done now." And he was quite sad about that, so maybe he's only just processing it now. 

[00:47:01] Emma Pickett: Okay. What, what triggered him asking again after a couple of weeks?

[00:47:05] Sophie: I think he was really tired, and I think, like how I described it as like this really lovely cuddle, I think he just wanted to ... And I did offer cuddles of course, but he didn't want that. He was like, "I want mommy's milk." But I think he was just really tired that day. 

[00:47:19] Emma Pickett: That was it. Two ... Uh, one, one episode and that, and that hasn't happened again since.

[00:47:24] Sophie: No. No, it hasn't happened again since. 

[00:47:27] Emma Pickett: Okay. Tell us about the ending then. Let's go, let's go back. Yeah. So did you, did you think, "I'm going to just let him go"? Obviously, you know, four and a half is a damn good innings. Congratulations- ... on that amazing breastfeeding journey. 

[00:47:38] Sophie: Thanks. Mm. 

[00:47:39] Emma Pickett: Did you want him to lead it?

Did you just think, "Well, there's no reason to stop it"? Did you actually sit down and think, "I'm gonna see how long we can go"? Or did it just naturally happen? 

[00:47:49] Sophie: Well, yeah, a few things, like a, a bit of all of that. I think I'd- I think I was quite shocked that we were still going. So I, I think I thought, okay, but I think because Sadie was my only example, uh, personal example, and she stopped at two and a half, I definitely remember thinking, well, this is gonna be interesting because I'm not gonna have another baby.

You know, I didn't, I don't want to have another baby. And that was the thing that sort of really made me stop. And like I said, I'm not the most boundaried person, so I don't really, I'm not sure what my kind of tool is that's gonna make us stop. Um, so I thought, "Oh, maybe I'll feed him until he's three." And I think I kind of held that in my head, and then his third birthday came and went, and I thought, "Okay, well probably let, let's say, you know, another six months, so by the time he's three and a half," and then that came and went.

Then 

[00:48:36] Emma Pickett: I- Was it, was, that's, that's ... I mean, I'm not asking you to remember the details in incredible memory way, but at three and a half, was he still feeding at night? What was the sort of typical pattern, do you remember? 

[00:48:46] Sophie: Yes. Yeah, still feeding quite a lot. And I definitely tried to have the rule around the age of three or three and a half to not feed out of the house.

And that wasn't because of, um, feeling any type of way about feeding in public, but just to try and create a boundary with him to try and reduce the number of feeds- Okay ... um, to just sort of say to him, "Oh, that's something that we do in the living room." I, I think it was a friend that said that to me, that she'd just feed in one particular spot in the house.

[00:49:13] Emma Pickett: Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:14] Sophie: And so that, you know, if, if they wanna feed you, you run to the sofa and that's where we'll go and have our feed. Just to try and, um, cut it down just a little bit. 

[00:49:22] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:49:22] Sophie: Um, so it's just not like all access all the time, which is what it, you know, had basically been. That mostly worked. Again, if he really kicked off when we were out and about, I would sort of give in 'cause it, it was just the, the one thing that always worked.

And then I'd say even up until ... Yeah, so, so then I made, then I made a whole picture book for his fourth birthday. I thought, "Right, when he's four, we're gonna stop." I mean, where these numbers come from, I don't know. I don't know why I decided this has to be a thing, but I thought, "Let's just give it a go, just sort of gently if I can sort of nudge him."

And it's funny 'cause it's not that I was particularly keen to stop it, I just ... Maybe it is a sort of little voice, like society voice in your head going, "That's probably enough now." But I wasn't really bothered to be honest. But anyway, I, I, I made a little book of pictures of us feeding with a little story about, you know, feeding along, you know, through the years and what it's meant for both of us, and now you're going to be four and you're a big boy and you're very loved and we'll have so many cuddles, um, and you can have milk in a cup.

Um, but like, we're gonna say goodbye to mommy's milk and- Okay ... whatever. That didn't, I mean- 

[00:50:37] Emma Pickett: No. Okay. So, so if you don't mind me being direct here- Yeah ... that was you desperately hoping that he would read the book and go, "Got, okay, message received. No problem." "You absolutely oppo- So sorry I hadn't re- re- received the memo before now."

Yeah. "No problem at all." So it wasn't really parent-led weaning. It was, "Here's a book, nudge, nudge, wink, wink." 

[00:50:58] Sophie: Yeah. See what you think. 

[00:50:59] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Could, could you possibly take it upon yourself to end breastfeeding? Yeah. But you weren't really taking the lead on that, really. Um- 

[00:51:06] Sophie: No, I wasn't. It, you're, you're right, I was trying to introduce the idea.

Like, "Have you ever heard of something called, yeah, weaning? Would you like to, to consider it?" basically. Um, he actually did, like, burst into tears, uh, when he saw that. Um, he re- he didn't like it at all. So I was like, "Right, let's put that to the back of the bookshelf. We won't look at that again." 

[00:51:27] Emma Pickett: But actually what's interesting is you, if you had absolutely wanted to wean- 

[00:51:31] Sophie: Mm

[00:51:31] Emma Pickett: you would not have put it to the back of the bookshelf. You would've said, "Oh, I know, mate- Exactly ... this is really h- hard and it's okay to be sad, and I'm gonna support you with your sad feelings, and it's okay to cry, and we s- we cry when we're sad about losing things." You know, you would've leant into that.

But actually- Mm-hmm ... your instinct was, "No, I haven't, I haven't quite given myself permission to do this, and the nudge is just as, uh, the only, as far as I'm willing to go and I need to kinda back off." So it doesn't sound like you were necessarily ready. 

[00:51:57] Sophie: No, that's t- totally right. A- and like I said to people, you know, with Sadie, I hit a wall, you know, poor Sadie, but I was just like, "I ca- I cannot do this.

You have to get off me right now." And there was no wall with Zach o- at, at that time. Um, I was like, "Who am I doing this for? Because I don't hate it, and he's still enjoying it, so fine, we'll just carry on." But then I'd say in the last six months, between four and four and a half, you know, it's probably, it's, it's sort of a bit of me, bit of him, probably, let's say 60% me, 40% him or whatever.

I did start putting more boundaries in. So we'd do a ten-second feed. I think it was actually listening to one of your episodes. You had a mom who talked about, I think she called it 10 and 10 Um, 10 seconds on each side, but I can't do that 'cause I only feed on one side, so it was just 10. Um, so I said, "Okay, 10."

And I probably had done that, you know, in the past 'cause I'd, I've, I'd heard of that before or, you know, we sing a song and when the song's, when I've finished singing we stop or whatever. But it just never felt like the right time, it just wouldn't have gone down well. But I introduced it and he accepted it.

[00:53:08] Emma Pickett: Okay. Which is a sign that he was in a certain place as well, isn't it? That's the key thing. Um- 

[00:53:13] Sophie: Yes ... 

[00:53:14] Emma Pickett: w- and that would happen at night as well? 

[00:53:16] Sophie: Yeah, so that would be the main ... I'd say the day feedings, 'cause he was at nursery, yeah, maybe he'd come home from nursery and h- he'd probably have, let's say, like two or three feeds in the day and then one at, uh, before bed.

And at that point he'd pretty much start, started sleeping through the night. Maybe he'd wake up at 5:00 or 6:00 and sometimes I could feed him back to sleep for another hour or so or whatever, then sometimes not. But yeah, I'd say with those feeds he, he mostly accepted it. And I, and I think then what happened was, well, this is my interpretation, but because he knew he was only gonna get 10 seconds, it kind of takes the, what's the point sort of thing.

Yeah. 

[00:53:58] Emma Pickett: Pl- plus your milk supply's probably dropping as well, so- True ... you're not necessarily gonna get a letdown. You probably go through that threshold of producing weaning milk, which is not as sweet and, and tastes a bit different. Mm. So all those things were kinda coming together. But it doesn't sound like there was ever a moment where you were having to really, really hold a line in a w- and that's great 'cause it didn't necessarily, wouldn't necessarily have worked with your personality either.

[00:54:21] Sophie: And that's the thing, I kept thinking to myself, 'God, if you really push this, you know I'd carry on feeding.' But I'm glad you're not. But yeah, um, 'cause he, yeah, he probably knows I'm a bit of a pushover, but yeah. 

[00:54:34] Emma Pickett: Well, but interestingly you weren't three days ago, though. You've just given the- No ... you've just given the example of when you absolutely did hold the line.

[00:54:41] Sophie: I did because, like I said, it's been about three weeks. He hasn't asked, he just sort of forgot. So yeah, so I'd say we, we'd kind of, we'd got down to the 10 seconds, then it would be 10 seconds and 24 hours. So we just kind of basically got down to that 10 seconds at, at bedtime. And then it would be 10 seconds every other day, and then 10 seconds every two, three days.

And now here we are where he didn't ask for it for basically three weeks until two days ago. But I, I think now I w- I have sort of hit my wall where ... Two days ago when he was asking, obviously I was going through, in my mind thinking, could I, could I? But actually the thought of feeding him, it wouldn't feel nice- 

[00:55:23] Emma Pickett: Okay

actually 

[00:55:24] Sophie: now. 

[00:55:24] Emma Pickett: Okay. So yeah, the wall came. 

[00:55:27] Sophie: I guess it has. 

[00:55:27] Emma Pickett: And, and that's okay. That's, you know yourself and you know what you, what's right for you, which is really good. So y- so I guess I, I already know the answer to this question. You don't have a memory of the last feed because you weren't necessarily sure it was the last feed in that moment.

[00:55:41] Sophie: Oh God, that's gonna make me really sad. But 

[00:55:45] Emma Pickett: the, not knowing the last feed is a good thing, by the way, not a bad thing. I think if you don't know when the last feed was, that's a good sign that your breastfeeding journey ended organically. And obviously there are people who, who don't want to do that or don't choose to do that and do know when the last feed was.

But don't, don't g- don't give the, the impression that I'm suggesting you should have known, uh, when the 

[00:56:03] Sophie: last feed 

[00:56:04] Emma Pickett: was. No, 

[00:56:04] Sophie: no. No, it does- no No, it just makes me feel sad that, yeah, I don't know 

[00:56:12] Emma Pickett: It was one of those ten-second bedtime feeds, and he was very happy to come off. He did not mind. It felt very safe for him to come off in that moment.

It was really clear to him how his needs were being met in other ways. Um, you know- Mm ... a gentle, a gentle ending. 

[00:56:28] Sophie: Yeah. It's funny, all these things like, like that and, and going through their baby clothes at the moment, um, to give to a family member and it's-- I have to sort of remind myself, like, giving these things away, like, you know, you're not giving your baby away.

It's not like ... They're still there. They're still your baby. But yeah, I guess it's like the same with ending breastfeeding. It's, I know it's legitimate to feel this way, but yet sort of you have to remind yourself that he's still there. I can still-- He's... I don't know. So yeah, probably not expressing it well, but yeah, he's still- No, 

[00:57:07] Emma Pickett: no, I think everyone gets- Yeah

exactly what you mean. Parenting is, is a weird old thing 'cause it's like, "Woo-hoo, you're big. Oh no, you're big." I mean, it, the, it's- Yeah. Someone, someone described it as breastfeeding is a series of weanings. Mm. It is. It's one thing after the next, after the next, and then one day they're jumping in a car and zipping off to university and-

and you know, it, it's one thing after the other. 

[00:57:28] Sophie: Yes, true. True. Yeah. 

[00:57:31] Emma Pickett: Not easy. No. 

[00:57:33] Sophie: No. But 

[00:57:34] Emma Pickett: yeah, 

[00:57:34] Sophie: and, and also I th- you know, I always knew that it would be harder in, in the sense that I, I wasn't going to have another baby. I think that maybe helps a bit, doesn't it? If you, you know, you know that there's gonna be another baby or whatever.

But, um, that that's sort of the end of, of, of that chapter and like I said, it, it does just go hand in hand with how I've raised them. I ... That's just how I know how to have a baby- 

[00:58:02] Emma Pickett: Yeah ... 

[00:58:02] Sophie: is to feed them. 

[00:58:04] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And now you're gonna help other people feed their babies, which is- 

[00:58:09] Sophie: Yeah ... 

[00:58:09] Emma Pickett: which is very special and a, and a real honor.

So that little book that went to the back of the shelf, maybe- ... it can come back out again, and you can have a good blub reading it. Um- Maybe that's- Yeah, 

[00:58:20] Sophie: I probably will. 

[00:58:22] Emma Pickett: Maybe the bit of catharsis around that might not be a bad idea. 

[00:58:25] Sophie: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's funny actually because sometimes I worry when I'm at the drop-ins that, you know, all the babies are there, and they're all feeding, and it's all just so lovely and oxytocin-y.

I think, "Oh God, please don't leak." But I think maybe I've gone past that, hopefully. I don't think there's any... 'Cause there definitely would've been a time where I, you know- I would've started leaking, I think. Well, actually, yes, because I, I held my friend's baby not that long ago. Oh, actually, yeah, no, maybe about nine months ago, and, um, he fell asleep on me, a, a newborn, and, um, I didn't realize, but I was leaking.

And she, she's a breastfeeder herself and s- and I said, "Oh my God, how awful." She was like, "Oh, how lovely." She was so happy. Aw. She thought it was the sweetest thing. And I was like, "Oh, I'm really sorry." And she was like, "No, please don't be." She thought it was lovely. Aw, 

[00:59:14] Emma Pickett: that's good. 

[00:59:15] Sophie: Um, 

[00:59:16] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I don't ... To be honest, most sleep deprived moms wouldn't even notice if you leaked all over their baby anyway when you're supporting a newborn.

[00:59:22] Sophie: She was like, "Do you wanna feed

[00:59:27] Emma Pickett: him?" I was like, "No, no, no, no, no, no." Yes. So, no. Yeah. That's a different profession. That's a different area of the, uh, breastfeeding support services. 

[00:59:31] Sophie: Yeah, true. 

[00:59:32] Emma Pickett: Thank you so much for your time today, Sophie. I'm, I'm really, really grateful. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you think we needed to cover?

[00:59:39] Sophie: I don't think so. No, I, I think that was really helpful at the end, actually, letting a bit of emotion out because, like I said, I haven't really sat and really sort of sat with the, the thinking and the feeling about it finishing. 

[00:59:52] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:59:52] Sophie: Um, so yeah, I appreciate that. 

[00:59:55] Emma Pickett: You should feel so proud. What a very, very special journey Zak has had, I would say, and Sadie, too.

Thank you. Um, yeah, you've worked really hard to meet their needs and look after yourself in the process, and you've, you've done a fantastic job, so really well done. 

[01:00:07] Sophie: Thank you. Thanks so much.

[01:00:14] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at emmapicketibclc and on Twitter @makesmilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist, and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.