Daniella and Katie - Being an older mum

Today, I’m delighted to be joined by Katie and Daniella to talk about the experience of being an older mum. Daniella, 43 is a solo mum in Birmingham. She shares how her daughter Remi self-weaned gradually after daytime feeds ended around age 3–4, describing a comfort-led “symbolic” latch, continued co-sleeping, and not experiencing weaning blues; she also reflects on early challenges including severe tongue-tie, oversupply, recurrent mastitis, anxiety about working, and feeling unable to breastfeed in public as Remi got older. Katie, 41 in Suffolk, breastfeeds nearly two-year-old Monty frequently day and night. She discusses sleep changes alongside starting a 4:00 AM job, training as a holistic sleep coach, being a “motherless mother” after her mum died in 2020, and managing perimenopausal cycle-related rage, nipple soreness, and feeding aversion with supplements and support. 

Katie’s Instagram is @good_nights_kip and her website is www.goodnightskip.com 

Daniella’s Instagram is @‌daniellastaubphotographer and her website is www.daniellastaub.co.uk

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, by going to https://bit.ly/JKPbooks and using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end, too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing, and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk Hello. Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode.

I'm gonna be talking today to Katie and Daniella, and we're gonna be talking about the experience of being an older mum. Now, obviously, that's a little bit difficult to generalize because being older doesn't necessarily mean you're a certain kind of person, but there are certain experiences that we're gonna be touching on today, including maybe a little bit of perimenopause and what it's like to breastfeed a toddler when you're older, and what society does when they encounter older mums.

So thank you very much for joining me today, Katie and Daniella. Let's start with you, Daniella. Tell us whereabouts you are and tell us about your little person. 

[00:01:23] Daniella: I'm in Birmingham, and my daughter is five years old. She's called Remi, and I am 43. 

[00:01:32] Emma Pickett: And you've just finished breastfeeding, which is very exciting because you know I'm obsessed with breastfeeding endings.

Um, so in a minute- ... I'm gonna ask you about how Remi's journey ended. Um, but before we do that, let's just, let's meet Katie. Katie, tell us about you. 

[00:01:46] Katie: Hi, I'm Katie. Um, I have a son who is just about to turn two. He's called Monty, and he is still full-on breastfeeding. 

[00:01:55] Emma Pickett: Excellent. And you're experiencing the joys of feeding in the night and feeding in the day, and you're right in the thick of it.

So we've got someone who's just finished, and we've got someone who's right in the middle of it. Let's start with your ending, Daniella, because I love to hear about breastfeeding endings. Am I right in thinking that Remi sort of self-weaned? 

[00:02:12] Daniella: She did, yeah. She'd, she'd already, um, weaned during the day quite a long time ago.

I would say when maybe she was three or three and a half. But she'd finished feeding during the day. It was, it was only at nighttime that I was still feeding, but she's now finished doing that, and she did do it herself, yes. 

[00:02:33] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:02:34] Daniella: Maybe it was till she was four during the day. I can't re- I can't remember.

I, 

[00:02:37] Emma Pickett: I love the fact you can't remember because that is very representative- Yeah ... of what natural term breastfeeding is like. There'll be people listening to this who are kinda feeding 18-month-olds going, "What do you mean you literally can't remember the year? Are you ... What the hell? How does that work?" But that is actually the reality of natural term feeding.

It just happens so gradually. So at any point in your breastfeeding journey with Remi, did you have to nudge things along? Did you make changes? Did you, did you have a stage where you had to put boundaries in place? Did you do anything parent-led at all? 

[00:03:07] Daniella: I didn't, to be honest. Lot of pressure to do that, um, from different places, but in the end I just Stopped worrying about what everybody else thought.

I had to do that quite earlier, like quite a lot earlier on. And then it was just up to her, and she, she decided when she wanted to stop during the day, and, and then she just decided when she wanted to stop during the night. But I thought it would happen a lot sooner, but it didn't, and I, I was absolutely fine with that.

Me and her were absolutely fine with that. 

[00:03:43] Emma Pickett: Okay. And when, uh, when she had her sort of final winding down, it stopped just because she started to sleep through and connect her sleep cycles? 

[00:03:51] Daniella: Um, no. She I still don't know exactly why she stopped, and I don't know if it was because of pressures at school or anything like that.

But I, I did used to ask her, like, "Has anyone..." You know, I used to kind of say to her, "Has anyone said anything?" But she said she just, she just, one night she just s- she just turned over and said, "Oh, I'm gonna, I'm gonna sleep on my own tonight." And I was like, "Okay." Um, 'cause at that point I, I felt really ready, you know.

I'd, I'd held onto it for a long time, obviously, but I felt really ready, and she was ready, and she just said, "Oh, I'm gonna t- I'm gonna try and sleep on my own tonight." And she just turned over, and I cuddled her, and she fell asleep. And then the next morning she was like, "I did it, I did it, I did it." 'Cause I think she thought she couldn't because she'd never done it any other way.

Um, and I said, "Yeah, of course you can. That's really good." And then, and then it was like a couple of nights where she did, and then again she would say, "Oh, I, I'm gonna do it on my own tonight." And then she'd try and, and manage and be proud of herself. And then, so it didn't stop, like, it wasn't like one night it was over.

It was like one night it, she didn't, and then a few nights, and then, and then it was just over. 

[00:05:06] Emma Pickett: So you don't necessarily know when the last feed was, I'm guessing. 

[00:05:09] Daniella: It was probably about a month ago. 

[00:05:14] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:05:15] Daniella: I don't know the specific date, no. 

[00:05:17] Emma Pickett: So when I say you didn't know what the last, when the last feed was, I mean when you were doing that last feed, it wasn't significant to you.

No. It wasn't obvious to you that that was the last time you'd ever breastfeed Remi. It was just one more feed that may or may not be followed by other feeds the next day. 

[00:05:32] Daniella: Yes, and what I will say, so what I will say is that leading up to that point, for quite a long time, she was very much just latching one suckle and then staying there, but not actually feeding, and then coming off.

So I didn't actually feel like I'd been feeding her for a very long time. 

[00:05:54] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:05:54] Daniella: And I definitely didn't have milk, because she told me, she told me about a year before, she said, "You know, there's no milk." She got frustrated for a short time, and then she just accepted it and said, "Well, there's no milk, but I still, it still makes me feel h- you know, comfortable."

So I think because it was such a sh- it wasn't a feeding, it's not like I was giving her a full feed and then it was over. It was such a, like, a comfort thing. 

[00:06:21] Emma Pickett: Okay. Almost, yeah, like a symbolism almost. Yeah A symbolic feed rather than an actual m- milk transferring feed. So I'm wondering because of that, because your milk production may not have even been happening, whether that's impacted on any kind of post-weaning feelings that you've had, because you know that some people will get weaning blues when they end- Yeah

their breastfeeding journey. How, how have you found things? 

[00:06:43] Daniella: I haven't experienced that at all, which I was so s- afraid of for such a long time. Like, the whole time I was afraid of that. But I think, like you say, because it, we did it so gradually that maybe I experienced that a little while before, but I hadn't put the two together because we hadn't finished, you know?

[00:07:01] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:07:01] Daniella: So yeah, I was pleased about that because I also thought I would be really sad, really sad, and I haven't been. Um, I've been Just happy for what we had and that she's done it on her own, and proud of her, and excited for her, you know? 

[00:07:20] Emma Pickett: Yeah. But, and you can hear the pride in her voice. That's so cute when she's going like-

'I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it.' Yeah, yeah. That, that's, that's really special. And are you guys still co-sleeping now? Where, where's everybody sleeping? 

[00:07:30] Daniella: We are still co-sleeping. I'm, I'm on my own with her, so we, we co-sleep. Although she, she's now started saying, "Oh, you know, you could sleep in another room if you want to."

And I'm like, 'I'm not ready.' No, but, um- I 

[00:07:43] Emma Pickett: love it ... 

[00:07:44] Daniella: whenever she does say that, I say, "Okay, I can," but then she always comes back, "No, no, no. Actually I want you to stay." So- Okay. 

[00:07:50] Emma Pickett: Aw ... 

[00:07:50] Daniella: I'm happy to stay. 

[00:07:52] Emma Pickett: It's nice that she's got the option. Am I, am I right in thinking you're a solo mum, Daniella? Is that right? 

[00:07:56] Daniella: Um, yes, I'm separated, so, um, she sees the other parent, but she is, she is primarily with me and, um, sleeps at my house overnight at the moment.

Yeah. 

[00:08:07] Emma Pickett: Okay. So do you have another room that's kind of set up if, if you were going to have a separate room? 

[00:08:12] Daniella: Yeah, I do. It's she, she calls it the spare room, so. 

[00:08:17] Emma Pickett: One day, and then you'll end up reuniting again, I'm sure. I spoke to someone today who, who was brought up by their mother and grandmother, and co-slept with her grandmother and beyond Remi's age actually, and has very, very fond memories of it.

So, but yeah, so co-sleeping for the win. You can, you can gradually reduce that whenever you want to. Thank you very much for giving us insight into the ending of Remi's journey. We'll come back to you in a minute to talk about the beginning. Katie, tell us about a typical 24 hours for Monty. What's happening with his breastfeeding pattern right now?

[00:08:48] Katie: Well, he's just entered into that world of 5:00 AM wake up, and I don't know if it's the light or if it's just that's where he's hitting his age. Um, so he'll, um... And sometimes it's a bit earlier than that, if I'm honest, but I don't like to think about it. Um, so yeah, he'll have a, a little feed then, and then he'll kind of come, he'll nod off again and then have another little feed before he gets up about 7:00.

And then he asks immediately for Mimi. Um, and sometimes I make him just wait a little bit, mainly 'cause I'm not a morning person, so I just need to come round a bit. Um, and then we have morning feed. Then he'll have some breakfast, probably have a mid-morning feed. Then he'll feed off to sleep for his nap.

Uh, and then sometimes he'll have a feed when he wakes up from his nap, not always But there's always mid-afternoon feed, there's always evening feeds, there's always through the night feeds . He's feeding a bit like a newborn at the moment, so, um- Okay ... yeah, we're, we're constantly feeding at the moment. 

[00:09:47] Emma Pickett: How, how are you finding it?

How do you feel about it? 

[00:09:50] Katie: I absolutely love breastfeeding. Um, but I have just started entering the world of night times I'm a bit over it sometimes . Yeah. Specifically the second half of my cycle. Um, but it's now becoming a bit more of a, yeah, I need a little bit more sleep. Um, and he's just waking up a bit more.

Like a few weeks ago he was doing a nice four, five, six hour stretch, but now he's back to only doing three-ish. Um, so that I'm finding a bit tricky. Yeah. But I love it in the day. I love, I love, you know, it can solve all problems, so I don't know what I would do without it. 

[00:10:28] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. We were, we were chatting just before we started recording, and we're both in the holistic sleep coaching environment.

So I've just finished my training, and you're almost finished with your training to be a hol- holistic sleep coach. Mm-hmm. Let's, let's have a holistic sleep coach chat about what might be happening with his wakings. What's his nap, what's his, the amount of nap time he has? What are his nap hours? 

[00:10:50] Katie: An hour and a quarter.

[00:10:51] Emma Pickett: Okay. So he's not oversleeping then. 

[00:10:53] Katie: No. He has low sleep needs, and if- Okay ... his nap is too late in the day like it was yesterday, then that's, uh, him up till late. He needs a big gap between his nap and his bedtime. Um, so his nap can quite often be at half 11. 

[00:11:07] Emma Pickett: Okay. So it's not like we're talking about lack of sleep pressure.

And, and you said that things got harder about a week ago, or d- what do you think might- Yeah ... be going on? 

[00:11:16] Katie: Well, there's a lot going on at the moment. I'm just about to, um, start a new, um, job that, so I've been off at interviews and, you know, he's been at home with dad a bit more. But I think it's, I think it's, um, separation anxiety definitely.

There's possibly some second molars coming in. He won't let me look. Um, so I think there's-- I think, you know, they pick up on everything, don't they? So there's a lot going on, and I think that he's just checking in a bit more to make sure that mom's around. Um- Yeah. 

[00:11:47] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:11:47] Katie: Yeah, 

[00:11:48] Emma Pickett: that emotional side to wakings I think is something we often forget about, and it's important to acknowledge.

Should we talk about your, your new job? Because I think it's interesting for people to hear about how we negotiate changes in our lives and- 

[00:11:58] Katie: Mm ... 

[00:11:59] Emma Pickett: changes to sleep patterns. So you've just talked about, um, Monty being a little bloke who wakes through the night and likes to graze in the early morning, and your new job is gonna hit right in the middle of that, isn't it?

Yeah. Tell us what's gonna be happening. 

[00:12:10] Katie: So my shift will start, start at 4:00 AM, so I'm out of the house no later than quarter to 4:00. So I'll be getting up at about quarter past 3:00, which at the moment, like last night, was when he was mid having a massive need to feed and needing mommy. So daddy is gonna have an interesting time.

Yeah. And I have-- I am, and I have been, you know, my husband's brilliant and is absolutely fantastic with him, but just how, the way that our roles have fallen into place is that I am, I am everything to Monty and do all of the main care. So it's gonna be very different. Yeah. But I do know it will be okay deep down.

It's just Yeah, it's quite a big thing. 

[00:12:49] Emma Pickett: Yeah, it is a big thing, and I think it's natural if you're feeling a little bit nervous about it, that would be super natural, and probably your husband's feeling a little bit nervous about it too. Yes. But it's actually gonna-- it's probably gonna be really special for them to, to have that time together and, and for your husband to develop his own sort of techniques and strategies.

It's gonna be a way that they really connect. So it's literally in a few days that you're starting your new job, less than a week. Have you had a chat with Monty about it, or that's too soon? What are you-- what's your, what's, what's your plan? Are you gonna do anything in advance? What's your-- what are you thinking?

[00:13:21] Katie: I am gonna talk to him about it, but I think if I talk to him about it now, it might make things worse 'cause he'll think- Yeah ... it's happening sooner, so. 

[00:13:27] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I agree. 

[00:13:28] Katie: Um, it's just unfortunate it is happening straight after his birthday as well, so I feel even doubly worse. But, um, I will talk to him about it and just say that...

'Cause I have done that in the past that where we've kind of thought, shall I maybe let Daddy step in and see if he can settle him in the night so that I can, you know, maybe share the load a little bit. And I've talked to him, and Monty goes, "Yes, yes, Daddy fine." And then, and then I go, "So Mummy won't come in."

"Oh, me, me. Me, me." I'm like, "No. Daddy will come and give you cuddles." "Oh, me, me." So I'm not quite sure how it's gonna go. But he has asked for Daddy a few times in the night, and I have to show him Daddy, and then he-- but then he wants to come back with me. So I think that we'll talk to him about it, and I suspect he'll probably sleep in our bed just to make it easier so that I can creep off, and then Daddy's right there if needs be.

So 

[00:14:17] Emma Pickett: where is everybody sleeping at the moment? What's the kind of geography of sleep? 

[00:14:20] Katie: We move about. We're a bit flexible, which I know is not quite usual. So he's got his own- 

[00:14:24] Emma Pickett: Oh my gosh, it is. Multiple beds is absolutely the bog standard with people breastfeeding beyond babyhood. The number of families where literally, like, no one is in ve- a bed the whole night is so normal.

No. 

[00:14:35] Katie: So he's got his own room with a floor bed, um, a little small double floor bed. Um, which generally, on the whole, I just end up in that in the early hours. But he's also still got a side car, cot we, you know, we did the hack of the Ikea cot, you know, strapping it onto the bed, and we've still got that so that if he's ill or whatever, it's just easier sometimes, um, to have him with us.

So he can go in there. Um, he can choose where he goes. We don't mind. We're, we're very happy to move around. 

[00:15:02] Emma Pickett: So if he wakes up and you've already left for work, the plan will be your husband will either go onto the floor bed or, or bring Remi into big bed area. 

[00:15:11] Katie: Yeah. 

[00:15:12] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. It's gonna work. You not being there will actually help in some ways because it's when you, when you're around and they know you're around- Mm-hmm

it's like, "Hang on, I know you're in the next room." Yeah. "Come back. Ca- do the breastfeed." Whereas if mommy's not there and he understands where you are, and it's gonna-- they're gonna get there, they're gonna get there. Mm-hmm. They'll be okay. Yeah. Um, a podcast episode that's gone out r- recently is Jessica, the police officer who comes home in the middle of the night having done a night shift and, um, and you know, sh- her partner's in the same story.

Mm. That they used to be feeding through the night and now they just make do and everyone just adapts, and little people are surprisingly adaptable. It will, it will work. And, and obviously when you finish your holistic sleep coach training- Mm-hmm ... um, you're going to start work as a holistic sleep coach as well.

Um- Yeah ... and you're just beginning to collect some hours, 'cause when you're training, people still do some practice hours and, and work with clients as well. I don't-- In a minute we pr- I promise we'll talk about your breastfeeding, but, um- ... it's c- I'd love to talk a little bit more about your holistic sleep coach stuff.

What, what-- Tell me a little bit about what you'd like your practice to look like. What, what would you-- Is there anything particular you want to focus on? What do you think is gonna be, um, your, the shape of your work? 

[00:16:22] Katie: I think that, um, the, the road that I'm gonna end up going down and what I'm really interested in, and what really kind of lights my fire is, um, older moms, 'cause obviously I am one.

Um, but also moms without moms. I think that there's a lot to be said about becoming a mom when you haven't got your mom on hand to ask or to, you know, check in with and talk to. Um, and I've lost count of the number of times that I've said to my husband, "I just need to speak to my mom. That's all - Yeah ... to make this okay."

[00:16:50] Emma Pickett: How old was your mom when she, when she passed, Katie? 

[00:16:52] Katie: She was 71, 70-- She just turned 71, 72. 

[00:16:57] Emma Pickett: And how old were you? 

[00:16:58] Katie: Um, I was mid-30s, 36. 

[00:17:01] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:17:02] Katie: 35, 

[00:17:03] Emma Pickett: 36. Not long. Not, not a long time ago. No, 

[00:17:05] Katie: 2020. 

[00:17:06] Emma Pickett: But before you, obviously before you became a parent. Um- Yeah ... I'm so sorry about that. That must have, um... I mean, tell me if this is too much of a personal question.

She, she died in the pandemic? 

[00:17:14] Katie: She di- died on the 3rd of April, um, yeah, in 2020, just as the pandemic was massively kicking in, and we'd all just been told to segregate. Um, and we don't think it was actually COVID related in the end, but it obviously was affected by that heavily. Um, so that was, yeah, that was quite traumatic, and so it's led me down a kind of a bit of a, an interest in grief, especially grieving in a pandemic.

[00:17:39] Emma Pickett: And that early stage when there wasn't a vaccination, that was a, that was even harder- Mm ... for things like funerals and, and connecting to family members- Mm-hmm ... and not being able to reach out to other people. I mean, you were- Yeah ... immediately stuck in that bubble, and everyone was just living in fear. 

[00:17:54] Katie: Yeah, no funerals, so it was just graveside.

There was no ceremony, um, which when your mom's a vicar was hard. Oh, 

[00:18:01] Emma Pickett: wow. 

[00:18:01] Katie: Okay. Yeah. So yeah, so that was really tricky, but it's, it's given me such an interest in it all and, you know, kind of a, um, a passion for it. And yeah, so I'm really interested in hopefully working with people who are going through similar things and 

[00:18:18] Emma Pickett: Is there a special way of describing someone who's mo- a mother without a mother?

Is there a term for that? What words do you use? 

[00:18:24] Katie: I think most people do just say motherless mothers. It's, you know- Okay ... mothering without mum, you know. Um, I haven't seen anything particularly different. 

[00:18:34] Emma Pickett: Okay. Well, we'll put your, um, Instagram and your contact details in the show notes, and if anyone listening to this connects with needing support as a motherless mother, I think actually even in, uh, for sleep particularly, there's something very, very personal about sleep support.

You really need to feel like someone gets you and kind of understands your philosophy and your parenting thinking, and it's-- and I think to emotionally connect with somebody during sleep support, I think is even more valuable. Um, it wasn't so long ago we were talking about the sleep industry in the UK and h-how it's unregulated and, you know- Mm

people really need to know they can trust people they're talking to, and I think it would be really special, um, to, if someone is mothering without a mother, to be able to connect with someone who gets how that feels and- Definitely ... to help them explore the whole emotional side of sleep, 'cause there's a lot going on there.

[00:19:18] Katie: Yeah. 

[00:19:19] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Well, very best of luck with your new job and also, um, your, your holistic sleep coach practice as well. Thank 

[00:19:23] Katie: you. 

[00:19:24] Emma Pickett: Okay, let's talk about breastfeeding. Let's talk about being an older mum. Um, first of all, do either of you feel that you've had any perimenopausal symptoms? Is that something either of you are experiencing?

[00:19:36] Katie: Absolutely. 

[00:19:37] Emma Pickett: Okay. So Daniella is shaking her head. No. Um, and, and Katie is doing the opposite to sh- of shaking her head. Uh, Katie, tell us what you've been experiencing. 

[00:19:46] Katie: I am. I'm definitely very pe-perimenopausal. My, my cycle came back at eight months, and it has been-- it was never great beforehand, so I was quite surprised to fall pregnant as it was at 41.

But yeah, no, definitely, definitely struggling with the hormones are Quite something, and I have, yeah. It's a challenge in the month, in the couple of weeks before, in the week beforehand, before period is, yeah, um, I'm, I'm rage incarnate. 

[00:20:14] Emma Pickett: Is that, is that something you experienced before when you were younger?

Were you somebody that always had a difficult period- Yeah ... during your period? That's not where a good way of saying it. A difficult stage in your cycle. Is that something you'd always, always experienced? 

[00:20:24] Katie: Yeah. I've never coped well with my hormones or my periods. Um, and I, even after giving birth, I've ... the first month was real tricky when your, your hormones all crash.

Um, so yeah, I've really struggled with that. Um, so just trying to take some healthy supplements, which actually has helped a little bit, so. 

[00:20:43] Emma Pickett: Ooh, okay. Tell us about your supplements. I'm not a supplements girl. Tell us what's helped you. 

[00:20:46] Katie: No, I'm not either, but I have, um ... So I'm taking B6, which has, I think that has helped.

But I also, um, in the second half of my cycle, I do take magnesium and calcium. 

[00:20:59] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:20:59] Katie: And that has helped with, um, cramps and all the kind of pain that comes with it also. Um, yeah. 

[00:21:07] Emma Pickett: So you said you've been, you've been experiencing rage. 

[00:21:09] Katie: Yeah. 

[00:21:10] Emma Pickett: Um, which is a, is a word that, that sounds very difficult. It's not, it's not a jolly word, is it, rage?

It's not a nice word. Um- 

[00:21:17] Katie: And not, and not going around shouting at everybody, but you just, you just can't deal with anything in that week before. 

[00:21:22] Emma Pickett: Yeah, you just, you're feeling more irritable, are you? Yeah. And how does that translate with breastfeeding and nighttime feeding particularly? 

[00:21:27] Katie: Yeah. Well, uh, y- uh, from ovulation on, I find it really, like I've got

I now put a headset on and have an audiobook on just to kind of zone out a little bit. It's, I'm also quite painful and quite sore nipple-wise as well in that second half of my cycle. So yeah, I get, yeah, a bit of aversion and a bit kind of like, "Hurry up and have your feed." And, and like sometimes I do just say to him, "Mommy's really sore tonight and really tired, a little bit."

And he goes a little bit, um, and then he'll have a cuddle. Uh, but it's not re- He'll, he'll, you know, five minutes later, if he's still awake, he'll be like, "Me, me." Um, so yeah. 

[00:22:07] Emma Pickett: And he's just at an age now, isn't he, where you can begin to talk about stuff like that. So he's turning two. Mm. That's an age where you've got some hope of being able to say, "I'm so sorry, mate, but this is what I'm going through and this is what we need to do tonight."

Mm. You know, if you've got a 13-month-old, there's, there's no hope, but you've got some hope. 

[00:22:23] Katie: Yeah. 

[00:22:24] Emma Pickett: So is your cycle pretty regular at the moment? 

[00:22:27] Katie: I am pretty regular, but I do have a really short luteal phase, so, um, s- that bit of me is, you know, very short, but I think that's quite common in perimenopause, isn't it?

But also possibly with breastfeeding 

[00:22:38] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that's the thing, isn't it? What, you, no one can ever identify what's breastfeeding and what's perimenopause. Mm-hmm. So, so often if someone is struggling and they are also breastfeeding, they are just going to be dismissed by anybody- Mm-hmm ... who's a medical professional.

"Well, we can't help you till you've stopped breastfeeding. Oh, you can't do HRT until you stop breastfeeding." That's actually not the case. Mm-hmm. There are some practitioners who will support you to have HRT while you're breastfeeding. Mm-hmm. And you can read a bit more about that on the Breastfeeding Network website.

There are things you can do, and it's, and no one should ever be fobbed off with, "Oh, you're breastfeeding. No, we can't do anything for you." Because increasingly people are being older mothers, and lots of people w- are going to have an overlap of perimenopause and parenting a little person, and we need to just be more switched on about this.

I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got The Story of Jesse's Milkies, which is a picture book from two to six-year-olds that really tells a story of little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways. Maybe there'll be a new baby sister, maybe his mom will need to practice parent-led weaning, maybe he'll have a self weaning ending.

It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we're there to support them through all of them, and also, we sometimes have needs too. Also on endings, we have Supporting the Transition From Breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child.

There are also chapters on different individual situations, like weaning an older child when there's still a baby feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation. Then we have Supporting Breastfeeding Past the First Six Months and Beyond, that's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond.

What are the common challenges, and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey. Then we have The Breast Book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14-year-olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is.

I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives. So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley Press website. That's uk.jkp.com.

Use the code MMPE10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful. It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you.

I'll come back to the, your early breastfeeding experience in a minute, Katie. Daniella, can I ask you l- about your experience of becoming a mother, um, and how you have found sort of toddler parenting as an older mum? 

[00:25:42] Daniella: I found breastfeeding really hard at the beginning. Really, really hard. Um, and I had a lot of support to make it possible for me to continue, which, which I'm grateful for.

That I knew to ask for ... You know, that I, I had those connections because I ... My job is I'm a newborn photographer, and I have lots of mums, I have so many new mums coming in to see me all the time. And honestly, nine out of 10 times they are desperate to breastfeed and have been told by somebody, "It's better, you know, it's better if you just give the baby a bottle."

They don't know about things like lactation consultants and the fact that it is hard. It's not ... You know, I think, I think a lot of people find that it's, it's hard and that therefore there's something wrong with it. But it's actually often just hard. And I had amazing support because I knew to look for it, and I knew what it was, and I was able to get it, um, which I'm grateful for, but, um, it wasn't easy.

[00:26:49] Emma Pickett: So you, um, when you had Remi ... So you're in the Birmingham area now, and you're still working as a newborn photographer at the moment? 

[00:26:56] Daniella: Yes. Yeah. I 

[00:26:57] Emma Pickett: am. You must meet so many new babies. You must- I 

[00:26:58] Daniella: do ... 

[00:26:59] Emma Pickett: have this ex- am- amazing snapshot of hundreds and hundreds of babies. Yeah. Um, when you, when you gave birth to Remi, were you in that area then or were you living elsewhere?

[00:27:06] Daniella: I was. Yeah. I was. Um, I'd been in London before, before that, and then moved to Birmingham and had Remi. So I was in Birmingham when I had her. But I had connections to some of the lactation consultants that are in the group where I think I met 

[00:27:22] Emma Pickett: you. Yeah. So we, we all met in the, in the Northwest London- Yeah

breast- breastfeeding group. Um, that's how we kinda connected. Um- Yes ... NWL Breastfeeding, which is, which is for people in northwest London, but obviously people join and then move elsewhere- Exactly ... which is why, why you're around d- different parts of the country. Am I, am I detect- uh, detecting a, a lovely South African accent?

Yeah. I'm South African. Yeah. Am I ... Is that where you're from originally? 

[00:27:43] Daniella: Yeah. That group itself, a- along with other stuff, was massively part of, of why I was able to continue breastfeeding, so. 

[00:27:53] Emma Pickett: What were some of the challenges that you had? 

[00:27:55] Daniella: Um, so when she was born, she had, like, a, a severe tongue-tie that had to be cut in the hospital, like, as soon as it was discovered, but it was only discovered day three or four.

[00:28:07] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:28:07] Daniella: So for those first four days, she screamed, I cried, and I didn't know ... You know, nobody could help until somebody said the feed- you know, the infant feeding team will come and look at her So that was hard. And I, you know, I just had to keep trying, but I ... It was, yeah, it was really hard. But I kept trying, and then they cut her tongue, and once they did that, it, it was better.

But then I had ov- I had massive oversupply, hu- like really crazy engorgement, and it was, it was just painful and it was, it was so hard just to 

[00:28:43] Emma Pickett: remember. Yeah. 

[00:28:43] Daniella: I 

[00:28:43] Emma Pickett: don't think ov- I don't think oversupply gets enough, enough attention, because it- I

[00:28:52] Daniella: think, yeah, whenever I say that everyone's 

[00:28:52] Emma Pickett: like- It can be so- ... "Well, you're lucky" ... oh, aren't you lucky? Yeah. It's, it's- It was, it was really hard. It can be really rough. I kn- I, I personally experienced oversupply as well, so it was a long time ago, so my memories aren't quite as fresh as yours. But I mean, your mastitis risk, physical pain, engorgement- Yeah

breastfeeding not being comforting or relaxing for either baby or mom, babies not being able to fall asleep on the breast, getting colicky type symptoms and windiness. Exactly. It's just, it's ... And, and refluxing and- 

[00:29:15] Daniella: Yeah ... 

[00:29:15] Emma Pickett: you know, your baby bag has to be the size of a massive suitcase 'cause everyone needs 10 outfits to be able to leave the house.

Um, it's, it's really rough going. So well done for getting through it. That is what 

[00:29:24] Daniella: happened. I got multiple episodes of mastitis, antibiotics, you know. Uh, and so that, that was really hard. And that carried on actually for the first couple of years. I still kept having it, uh, milk, those, those milk blisters.

[00:29:41] Emma Pickett: Gosh, two ye- two years of mastitis, Daniella. That is, that is really tough going. Really tough going. And at this point, um, you may tell me to get stuffed if this is too much of a personal conversation, but were you a single mother by this point? No. 

[00:29:53] Daniella: No. I was, I st- I was still living with my ex-partner at that point.

[00:29:58] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. And then So then things calm down, your supply calm down. 

[00:30:04] Daniella: Yeah. 

[00:30:04] Emma Pickett: Um, and I guess one of the great things about being a newborn photographer is you can be flexible with your work schedule. But then I guess another thing is y- you've got that kind of uncertainty of when you're gonna get work, and bit, a bit scary in some ways, I think, to, to not know when, how income's gonna work out.

How have you found that? 

[00:30:21] Daniella: I mean, it's still scary. It's still scary. But in terms of breastfeeding and my work, when I, when I started going back to work, I would have my part- my ex-partner bring her to the studio in the middle of a shoot, and I'd just say to my client, "I have to feed her." I wasn't able to be like, "She'll be okay."

I was never able... I think it was my anxiety. And so, like, if I had a shoot where, in London, where I had to leave very early, I, it really stressed me out. Uh, so I had quite a lot of anxiety around that. Um, and, and as a result, I sort of planned my life around my breastfeeding rather than the other way around, which was nice for us, but also not amazing for my career.

And I know now that, like, looking at friends and stuff, that it is possible to do both. Um, but I, I think my own anxiety just didn't allow that, um, at the time. You know, you just go with whatever you are able to cope with and, and that wasn't something I was able to. But, you know, hindsight. 

[00:31:27] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So you're traveling all over the place.

You're not just doing shoots locally then, by the sounds of it. So you would potentially spend the whole day away from Remi. And did you kinda get expressing down to a fine art? What was a sort of typical day? 

[00:31:39] Daniella: Like I said, I never actually did that while she was still feeding, feeding. I was never able to, to go for a day.

I just wouldn't do the job. So I never expressed. It was always just, I only put her in nursery when she was, I think just before she turned three, so I was just with her breastfeeding. 

[00:31:59] Emma Pickett: Which is why you've gone on as long as you did, 'cause she had, she had that great opportunity to, to breastfeed for as long as she wanted to, and, uh- Yeah, 

[00:32:04] Daniella: whenever she wanted to, yeah.

[00:32:06] Emma Pickett: So you mentioned that, you know, you, you put breastfeeding first and work went around that. Is... Y- you sort of said that with almost a little bit of a regret. Would you do anything differently again if you had the chance to relive that phase of your life again? 

[00:32:19] Daniella: Hmm, I don't know It, it's n- it would be different now because I'm on my own now, so I wouldn't have the luxury of, of doing that.

I would have to, I would have to do something differently this time. But it, if I would change what I did, no. But doing it again, I would have to because, you know, I would have to work and that would, that would have to fit in around it. 

[00:32:44] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:32:45] Daniella: And I know now that you can, you know, you can do both. I was like terrified of a bottle, and I think s- next time round I would be a little bit more-- I would have to be a little bit more, um, you know, open to, to the breastfeeding fitting in with, with my work and Remi and everything else.

Um 

[00:33:06] Emma Pickett: Yeah ... 

[00:33:06] Daniella: if that makes sense. 

[00:33:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah. No, that makes sense. So, so you mentioned that you gave birth in the Birmingham area, and so you were what? 38-ish when you, when you gave birth to Remi? 

[00:33:15] Daniella: Yes, 

[00:33:16] Emma Pickett: 39. 

[00:33:17] Daniella: Yeah. 

[00:33:17] Emma Pickett: Okay. And- 

[00:33:19] Daniella: No ... 

[00:33:20] Emma Pickett: I mean- 

[00:33:20] Daniella: You're right, 30- 38. Sorry. 

[00:33:23] Emma Pickett: That's all right. You're, you're allowed to n-not remember. Not remember.

I'm, I'm just doing the maths. Um, so, so in where I live in London, b- uh, 38 is kind of a spring chicken, to be honest. I mean, I, l- tons of people are having, uh, babies a little bit older. Yeah, 

[00:33:38] Daniella: yeah. 

[00:33:38] Emma Pickett: Um, but I'm guessing in other parts of the country it's not so common necessarily to have older moms. Did you, did you feel like you were an older mom?

Like, when you went to kind of antenatal classes, when you connected with other moms, how did that, how did you feel? 

[00:33:53] Daniella: No, I, I don't think I felt it in those classes at all. I had, like, no awareness of that at all, except when I started making friends here, because I was making friends with the moms whose, you know, babies were the same age, and then I realized.

I was like, "Oh, everybody's 30." You know. Um, obviously not everybody, but it just, it just became a thing where my friends became a lot younger. Um, and every now and again, I would meet, you know, moms the same age as me and be like, "Woo-hoo." But yeah, I didn't, I didn't feel that, and I still don't. Like, I, I don't feel

I don't really feel that- 

[00:34:32] Emma Pickett: Okay ... 

[00:34:32] Daniella: at the moment, anyway. 

[00:34:33] Emma Pickett: Good. Good. I don't want you to feel that, or feel different, or feel isolated. This is good. So not only do you not have perimenopausal symptoms, but you also don't feel necessarily un- We're very happy for you, Daniella. 

[00:34:43] Daniella: Oh, thank you. 

[00:34:45] Emma Pickett: No, we are, we are. I don't mean that sarcastically.

We are. I'm glad, I'm glad that's the case. Um, Katie, tell us about you. What, tell us about, um, Monty's birth and how that experience was for you. So you were what? 41-ish when you had Monty? Yeah. How was that? 

[00:34:58] Katie: Um, yeah, it was hard. But I don't know. I've h- been asked that question before, and I'm like, "I don't know," 'cause I didn't have a child when I was younger- You don't know the difference, yeah, of course

so I don't know the difference. So I don't know if all the things that I struggled with or what other, you know, were just because of my age or because of just having a baby. But I was, uh, s- categorized as high risk in our hospital, obviously, and, um, I have that very annoying thing of white coat syndrome, so my blood pressure goes up the minute somebody comes near me with a, a pressure, blood pressure monitor.

Um, and so they were all panicking all of the time. 

[00:35:30] Emma Pickett: So they were panicking about you because your blood pressure would go up. Yeah. They thought you had a high blood pressure issue. Yeah. Okay. 

[00:35:36] Katie: So, um, I had to fight my corner so hard. Um, and I, they, I got them to agree to, for me to monitor my own blood pressure at home, and it was always fine.

Okay. Um, so I got away with that. And then, um, it got towards the end of the pregnancy, I was planning a home birth. Um, spoiler alert, it did not happen. And I did find a really nice, um, obstetrician who she took me under her wing and she went, "I want you to have your home birth. It's the best thing for you.

Let's try and do that. Would you agree to a sweep?" And I went, "Okay, I'll have a sweep with you." She was the queen of sweeps. I'd heard all about her, you know. She got everybody going, and she, um, broke my waters. 

[00:36:13] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:36:14] Katie: So I had a premature, premature, no, yeah, shrom, wasn't it? And yeah. Um- 

[00:36:20] Emma Pickett: This is w- w- were you in

So you're in Suffolk now, was this in Suffolk? 

[00:36:23] Katie: Yeah. Okay. I was still in Suffolk, yeah. 

[00:36:25] Emma Pickett: So when you say premature, how far along were you? 

[00:36:28] Katie: I wasn't quite 40, I was still 39 weeks plus, 39 plus two. Okay. So no, it wasn't premature, it was just- 

[00:36:33] Emma Pickett: Premature as it was- Yeah ... unexpectedly soon, rather than the medical definition of 

[00:36:37] Katie: premature.

Yeah. 

[00:36:38] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:36:38] Katie: So she did that, and that was a shock to us all, and then obviously you have 24 hours before the risk of infection, you know, and they want you in within 24 hours, don't they? Um, so 24 hours later we went in and, um- 

[00:36:51] Emma Pickett: So no home birth because of the rupture- No ... of the membranes. Okay. 

[00:36:54] Katie: No. So the birth pool sat in the hallway.

Um, so yeah, and then, uh, I had the hormone inserted, and that got me going quite quickly, and he came, he came quite rapidly. Um, um, but he did come with forceps, uh, 'cause he wasn't very happy about it. Um, so I had everybody watching 'cause they were all worried about me. Um, and I was very aware that everybody was watching, and I d- I was in labor ward.

I wasn't in ... They didn't turn... Uh, yeah, it was, it was all quite a lot going on in my birth. But he got here, um, and we breastfed straight away. Um, and breastfeeding went really well for the first couple of days. It was constant. Um, but we, he fed really well, and then it started getting really painful, and then, uh, we l- went down the tongue-tie route.

And yeah, he had a posterior tongue-tie released. Oh, gosh, 

[00:37:46] Emma Pickett: tongue-tie. Everyone's got the tongue-tie 

[00:37:47] Katie: experience. I know. I know. You know, it, yeah, it feels like everybody's got them. But, um, it did change our journey. So the first two weeks were really quite something, and he was constantly feeding. Like, I don't even think you can call it cluster feeding 'cause it was 10 o'clock at night till 5:00 in the morning, he was on me the entire time.

So I ended up with quite a good supply, too. Mm-hmm. Um, so yes, I had, um, a lot of clogged ducts. On a kind of every two weeks I was clogged ducts, but I had lots of really good advice, and so as soon as I knew they were there, I was doing all of the things. 

[00:38:24] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:38:24] Katie: Um, so ibuprofen and the icing and all of that.

So I managed to not get mastitis, um, despite getting clogged ducts every two weeks. 

[00:38:34] Emma Pickett: And, and Daniella, you talked a little bit about having some people in your life that didn't necessarily support you with your breastfeeding decision. And I'm not asking you to necessarily name names. Um, but t-tell us a little bit more about that, what it was like to have people not fully getting it.

[00:38:49] Daniella: I just really felt that, I think ... I can't remember it wh- when it was. I think she must have been coming close to three by that point, or two and a half. And I suddenly became aware of the fact that I couldn't feed her in public anymore. Like, I wanted to, and it felt normal to me, but I suddenly felt people looking at me funny, which was really sad for me.

And I, I was, in my mind, I was like, "I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna fall to that pressure." But, but I did, and I, I started, you know, like, I would ... I can't remember exactly when it was, but I think it was about two and a half. I would, you know, go to the bathroom and feed her in the bathroom or ... But I never, I never kind of let her know that that was, that was a problem or anything.

But I definitely felt that pressure just from society in general. 

[00:39:39] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:39:39] Daniella: Um, and then definitely, um, from, from people that I know. It just became an issue that wasn't necessarily ever discussed, but everybody knew it was an issue. And- 

[00:39:52] Emma Pickett: Okay ... 

[00:39:53] Daniella: I had to constantly try and protect Remi within that so that she didn't

I never wanted her to feel that in, that, that it was a problem at all, you know, that what she was doing was wrong because it's, it wasn't. 

[00:40:06] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So as far as you're aware, no one's directly spoken to Remi about it. You mentioned there might have been conversations at school, but you're not aware of any conversations.

[00:40:14] Daniella: Not specific conversations, no, that I know of. I, I don't know. Yeah. But, 

[00:40:19] Emma Pickett: yeah And, and Katie, as your breastfeeding continued, and it was obvious that you were gonna be breastfeeding beyond babyhood, how was your suppe- support network responding to that? 

[00:40:29] Katie: Yeah, fine, really. I've been really, really fortunate, but I'm so outspoken about breastfeeding and was so adamant that I was doing it that I don't think anybody would say anything to me.

[00:40:39] Emma Pickett: You're a bit scary, is that what you mean? 

[00:40:41] Katie: No, I just, I just, like, like I made it really clear to, you know, my family that this is, you know, people around me, this is what I am doing, and this is what I'm gonna do, and nothing is gonna change. So, um, we have just entered into a bit of the world 'cause if he does wanna feed outside, which is quite rare, but if he does, I do kind of have a look around and just kind of find a little bit more of a more discreet spot.

But other than that, I don't really feel like that at the moment. Um, I did-- We went, we did go to a work event with my husband recently, and it was in the evening, and he came with us, and, um, he wanted some, uh, milk, and I was like ... I looked at my husband and I said, "Do you mind if I do it?" It was at like, you know, it would, would've been quite exposing.

And he said, "No," and, you know, he's absolutely fine. And I just thought, actually, do you know what? It's probably a bit bizarre at a work event um, with lots of men 'cause my bro- uh, uh, my husband works in a very male orientated field. And, uh, so I did just nip, nip outside and somebody said, "Would you like a room to go into?"

But there was nobody there. And I was like, "Oh, is it uncomfortable for you? I wondered. I wasn't sure." And I went, "No, I'm quite happy. Are you okay with me being here?" And she was like, "Oh, yeah. No, that's fine." So that's my only awkward kind of interaction. Otherwise, no, I've been really fortunate. 

[00:41:55] Emma Pickett: What are your plans for Monty's breastfeeding?

Do, are you somebody that has goals? Are you just gonna see how things go? What's, what are your plans? 

[00:42:03] Katie: I have no goals at all. And, um, no, I'm just gonna see how it goes. I think about it quite often, and I can't decide what I do think. I don't know if I do feel like I want to wean him, but I don't know. Every time I say that out loud, I go, "Oh, no, not ready.

I'm not ready. He's not ready." And we'll just see what happens, I think. 

[00:42:23] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:42:23] Katie: It may be that I get to the point of night weaning. I might. I can see that possibly being, but when I say it again out loud, I go, "Oh, no, I'd rather he just ..." This might be my only opportunity to go through this, so just we'll see what happens and enjoy it.

[00:42:39] Emma Pickett: So I guess that's one of the things about being an older first-time mom. You d- you don't necessarily know how big your family's going to be or what's gonna happen next. Mm. If we could wave a magic wand, would you, would you like another child? 

[00:42:51] Katie: Yes. Yeah, definitely. Okay. Mm. 

[00:42:55] Emma Pickett: And obviously continuing to breastfeed and continue to breastfeed as frequently as you are could be potentially making that a little bit harder.

Mm. I say that as someone who very much supports people to continue breastfeeding during conception journeys, but it could possibly- Mm ... be making it a little bit harder. Is that something- Yeah ... that you're kind of thinking about? 

[00:43:12] Katie: I'm very aware of it now 'cause he got ill two weeks ago, had a little sickness bug, really short-lived, but he didn't want any milk, and I got quite engorged, and I was a bit surprised how engorged I got, so I pumped, and I didn't pump to empty, and I got masses, and I went, "Oh, my supply is still quite strong."

Okay. I was really shocked. I think I got 250 mils in total. Oh, wowsers. Okay. Over, over... It was over about 10 hours, I think. But I think that's quite a lot for this- 

[00:43:39] Emma Pickett: That is a lot for someone breastfeeding a 

[00:43:41] Katie: two-year-old. And that wasn't- Yeah. Okay ... that wasn't empty, and I went, "Oh." And 

[00:43:44] Emma Pickett: that wa- So you weren't even doing a full pumping session.

[00:43:46] Katie: No. 

[00:43:46] Emma Pickett: You were just taking a little bit off, and you got 250 mils in that time. 

[00:43:49] Katie: Taking enough off, yeah. 

[00:43:51] Emma Pickett: Okay. Wow. Anyone listening, that's not a normal response to a little bit of pumping- No ... at the age of two. So you obviously are producing a huge amount. 

[00:43:58] Katie: Yeah. 

[00:43:59] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:43:59] Katie: Yeah. And he's not much of a snacker, and I know that, so I am trying to get him more interested in snacks.

He's really good with his meals, but the in-between is, he, he'll always choose milk over that. So yeah, that could well be a factor. 

[00:44:15] Emma Pickett: You mentioned before that you think you have a short luteal phase. 

[00:44:18] Katie: Mm. 

[00:44:18] Emma Pickett: Um, obviously that could be a barrier to conception- Mm ... even if you have a regular cycle, so. 

[00:44:24] Katie: Mm. 

[00:44:24] Emma Pickett: So the night weaning, would that be with conception in mind, or is that just 'cause you could flipping do with some sleep?

[00:44:30] Katie: No, I think it's probably more just could do with some sleep. I had a short luteal phase when I got pregnant with him as well though, so that's not massively unusual. It's slightly shorter, but not really. So, um, yeah. 

[00:44:42] Emma Pickett: How many days? 

[00:44:43] Katie: It can be eight. Sometimes I do make it to 10 though, so. 

[00:44:46] Emma Pickett: Okay, gosh. So, so properly short then.

Yeah. And that's an interesting experience that you got pregnant despite that. Mm. Okay. 

[00:44:52] Katie: Yeah. 

[00:44:52] Emma Pickett: So I wonder whether, what your new job will change, whether you're gonna need to night wean to be able to get up at 3:00 o'clock in the morning, um- 

[00:44:58] Katie: I might do. We'll see. That's, 

[00:45:00] Emma Pickett: yeah. Mm. That's gonna be, yeah. Well, very, very best of luck with that.

Um, have you ever had any... We, we were talking to Daniella about her friends and how she met people who were younger moms- Yeah ... and it wasn't really a thing. How have you found kind of meeting other first time moms and creating your kind of mom network? 

[00:45:17] Katie: Yeah, I have found that hard. I mean, I'm not great at making friends, and I'm quite shy.

I'm quite introverted. Um, says the girl on a podcast. But- ... um, uh, yeah. And everybody is considerably younger than me at all the groups. And I feel it. I do feel it. I also don't feel it 'cause in my head I'm still 25. But, you know, I'm aware that I have to get onto all fours to get up off of the floor when we're doing activities.

I can't just bounce up. But I d- I mean, I talk, I was at a playgroup that I go to regularly, and I was speaking to what I thought was a mom 'cause I was like, "Oh, she's the same age as me. I can tell that she's really similar age." 

[00:45:53] Emma Pickett: Okay, I can guess where this is 

[00:45:54] Katie: going. Yeah. And I was really, really enjoying it, and I was like, "Oh, maybe this is, you know, a connection I'm gonna make."

And then she was like, "Oh, that's my grandchild." I was like, "Okay." I laughed and I went, "Really?" I t- I told her exactly what I was thinking, and she went, "Oh." And she was on- well, she was, she was early 50s. Um, but I was like, "Oh, okay." 

[00:46:14] Emma Pickett: And do you think that other people have treated you differently? Like have you started chatting to a new mum and you felt her kind of like backing off slightly or is that, or is maybe as a shy person you might misinterpret just normal behavior as someone backing off?

[00:46:28] Katie: I don't know. I've never thought about it being age b- and no, 'cause I'm not, I'm not very forthcoming with people, so I have nice little chats with people, and I have made like one quite good friend at one of the playgroups and, you know, we, um, keep in touch and have chats, and she is considerably younger than me.

But actually she's breastfeeding and we found a connection through that and, you know, she's from where I used to be from as well. So y- you know, I kind of like that, um, side of things. But yeah, no, most people are considerably younger and I kind of don't want to impose myself upon them 'cause I don't want them thinking oh, you know, she's an old one.

[00:47:03] Emma Pickett: Aw, but I'd, I'd like to be imposed on myself by you. That sounds like I'm coming onto you there, Katie. I didn't mean to sound like I'm coming on. Um, it's, I think when you're a shy person and an introverted person, you're so quick, aren't you, to assume that someone else has got an, a, an issue, and gosh, it doesn't matter how old someone is.

I know it sounds really daft, but- 

[00:47:21] Katie: Mm ... 

[00:47:22] Emma Pickett: you know, Daniella's definitely found younger friends not, not being an issue. Um- 

[00:47:26] Katie: Mm ... 

[00:47:27] Emma Pickett: just I think if you connect with somebody when it comes to sort of parenting choices and parenting philosophy- Mm ... that's the kind of core of it, isn't it? If someone kind of listens and empathizes and gets what you're going through and, um, is at the same stage of parenting, there's so much that you have in common.

So you're gonna start this new job and then you're going to-- When are you going to sleep? Is your plan to go to bed earlier? Yeah. Are you gonna go to bed with Monty when Monty goes to bed? What's, what are you thinking you're gonna do? 

[00:47:51] Katie: Yeah, that would be the ideal plan, but realistically he's a late to bed as well 'cause obviously he's not great, he's not high sleep needs, so- 

[00:47:59] Emma Pickett: Okay

[00:48:00] Katie: he can be 8:30. He can even be a little bit closer to 9:00 sometimes. So, um, and being an introvert, I really value having at least half an hour in the evening that is peaceful. Um, so we're gonna have to work around this, aren't we? So not entirely sure, but yeah, I probably will try and go to bed with him and then, um- And 

[00:48:20] Emma Pickett: never see 

[00:48:21] Katie: your 

[00:48:21] Emma Pickett: husband 

[00:48:22] Katie: Yeah, pretty much That's 

[00:48:22] Emma Pickett: the other problem 

[00:48:23] Katie: Hmm 

[00:48:24] Emma Pickett: It's not forever.

When you- No ... have your booming sleep coaching business working with motherless mothers you can give up your early morning job and you can focus on that 

[00:48:33] Katie: Oh, yes, 'cause I am not an early morning person 

[00:48:35] Emma Pickett: Yeah, you said before you're not a morning person, and now you've got the ultimate morning job. So are you-- Can you listen to an audio book when you're at work?

[00:48:42] Katie: I suppose you can Yes, you can You can I'm gonna be listening to your podcast. I'm gonna, I'm gonna just queue all my podcasts and listen to them as I work. It's gonna be wonderful 

[00:48:50] Emma Pickett: Oh, I'm very honored to be part of your early morning association Okay. Daniella, before we go, have you got any advice for anybody who is parenting at this stage of their life or, or breastfeeding a five-year-old?

What-- Any messages, anything we haven't covered that you think you'd want to leave people with? 

[00:49:07] Daniella: There's so much pressure on doing things a specific way. I have friends that are, like, really feeling that this should be happening by that stage or that should be happening by that stage. And my advice would just be to just work with your child, because I know, I mean, every child is different and, you know, I haven't done things conventionally or, or the way everybody else has done them, but Remi is an amazing, happy, confident, well-balanced, incredible child.

And so I just think all of these These pressures. Just do what you want and don't worry about what anyone thinks about you because otherwise you're just, you're just doing everything according to the pressures that you feel and yeah, just don't worry about anyo- what anyone thinks- 

[00:49:57] Emma Pickett: Yeah ... I 

[00:49:57] Daniella: think is my advice.

[00:49:59] Emma Pickett: If we could wave that magic wand and have parents not worrying about the opinions of others, that would be just amazing. Can you imagine if everyone parented according to their own instincts and- It would be amazing. Yeah ... and listening to their children and connecting with their children, it'd be so special.

Well- It'd be mental ... I think you should feel so proud- Yeah. No, thank you ... of the fact that you, you let Remi get to the point where she self-weaned, and I think you should be- Thank you ... so proud of that as a breastfeeding journey despite having pressures to do otherwise. W- what a gift you've given her in the start, in her start to life.

Um- 

[00:50:26] Katie: Thank you ... 

[00:50:26] Emma Pickett: and yeah, that is, that is excellent advice, and I would say that true for any stage of parenting at any stage of life, if you can block out the external noise and listen to your instincts, that's so powerful. Um, anything you'd want to leave people with, Katie? 

[00:50:39] Katie: I can't beat that, but my, my- I can't.

No, 'cause it's absolutely, uh, everything you said is absolutely true. Um, but my thing is that this period of time is so short with them. It's such a small part of their life and your life with them that that's what I keep focusing on, is that I want to absorb all of that and just go with it. Like you said, you know, don't let the outside world alter what you wanna do with your child.

They are your child, um, and you parent them how is best for you. 

[00:51:08] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Do you think that being an older mom has made you a better mom? Just thinking if you were, if you'd had Monty when you were 20- 

[00:51:16] Katie: Mm ... 

[00:51:17] Emma Pickett: how do you think that would've been different? 

[00:51:18] Katie: I think about that a lot 'cause part of me thinks it would've changed me into being more like I am now, possibly.

Um- 

[00:51:26] Emma Pickett: And what does that mean? 

[00:51:28] Katie: Oh, I was terrible when I was younger I was rebelling big time. I was the rebellious- Okay ... black sheep of the family, so, um, I wasn't very straight-laced and, you know, doing what I should've been doing. Um, so, uh, no, I think, I think that being an older mum has ... I've got more patience now than I thought, than I definitely had when I was younger.

Um, and like I say, because I know that I'm older and that this is possibly my only, I'm absorbing it all and I am ... He is my focus, so he's getting everything canned. He is turning into a very well-balanced, very confident little boy like Remi. So, you know- Wow ... you know, that parenting in that way where you just do what they need in the moment, I think it does develop the confidence and the independence.

Mm-hmm. Even though they look very dependent upon you. 

[00:52:21] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that's what research would suggest. Breastfeeding little people are not clingier or more, more dependent. They are- Yeah ... potentially have better social skills and, and psychosocial skills. Do you think you would've been a different parent 20 years ago, Daniella?

What do you think you would've been like at 20? 

[00:52:35] Daniella: I'm very glad that I waited. I think I'm a better parent at my age because I think, um, like Katie was saying, I, I have all the time in the world and she is my priority. I'm not ... I never have a moment where I think, "Oh, I really ..." A lot, a lot of my friends are like, I've never, I haven't been in- out in the evening since she was born, which might sound crazy, and it does sound crazy, and a lot of people are like, "That can't be true."

But I've breastfed her to sleep every night, so I haven't been out in the evening, and I don't mind. I do not feel like I've missed out. I don't feel like there's anything wrong with me. I just feel like that that has been my phase, and it's been incredible, and I wouldn't change it for the world, and lots of people think I'm, I'm strange.

And I would never have done that when I was 20. 

[00:53:26] Emma Pickett: Okay. So that's, I was just gonna say is that the s- the trick is getting all the nights out out the way. You've had your bank of nights out, and now you can have a phase in your life where you don't mind as much because- 

[00:53:35] Daniella: I don't mind as much, you know. And obviously I like

It's not that I, I don't like going out in the evening. I will enjoy it when it happens again, but I don't feel that sort of, I don't feel resentment or like I'm missing out or ... Just feel lucky. 

[00:53:50] Emma Pickett: Well, that's a good place to be, and good luck with your future nights out, and good luck with your new job as well, Katie- Thank you

and your, your sleep coaching business as well. Thanks so much for your time today. 

[00:53:59] Daniella: Thank you. Thanks.

[00:54:05] Katie: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at 

[00:54:10] Emma Pickett: emmapickettibclc and on Twitter at makesmilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist, and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.