Naomi's story - breastfeeding grief with a 2nd journey

This week I’m speaking to Naomi Cappallo on Vancouver Island about feeding their two daughters, Clara (6) and Juniper (3), focusing on breastfeeding grief after a second journey that didn’t go as hoped. Naomi describes early pain with Clara, brief formula top-ups for early weight loss, and eventually breastfeeding through the pandemic until age two, using boundaries to reduce frequent toddler feeds. With Juniper, a very fast birth was followed by severe nipple pain, limited breastfeeding support, early formula to cope, and then mastitis, fever, abdominal pain, and a long hospital wait. A pharmacist incorrectly said antibiotics meant they couldn’t breastfeed, which derailed their plans. A midwife/IBCLC later helped them restart breastfeeding and combination feed until Juniper preferred bottles at three months. Naomi shares how their grief persisted in waves, the impact on mental health, and what they wish they’d had in support. 

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, by going to https://bit.ly/JKPbooks and using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

Resources mentioned - 

Breastfeeding Grief by Professor Amy Brown

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end, too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, 

really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. 

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. Um, I'm gonna be talking to Naomi.

That's Naomi Cappallo, who's in Vancouver Island, Canada, or actually you're probably on Vancouver Island, aren't you, rather than in Vancouver Island. 

[00:00:57] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah, that's right. 

[00:00:58] Emma Pickett: And, and Naomi's gonna be talking to me about their breastfeeding journey with their two daughters. And as you'll have seen from the title of the episode, one of those journeys did not work out in the, in the way that Naomi would have hoped.

So we will be touching on breastfeeding grief, and that may be difficult for some people to hear, but also I hope you also get comfort and, and, and wisdom from Naomi's story as well. No pressure to put on the wisdom, Naomi. But, uh, um, sometimes it's really helpful for people to hear, uh, the stories that are similar to their own, and sometimes that- that's too hard.

So tell us about your family. Who have you got? 

[00:01:30] Naomi Cappallo: Uh, so I've got two daughters. They're six and three. Um, and yeah, I live with my, my husband, um, and a dog. 

[00:01:40] Emma Pickett: I'll try and avoid temptation of getting you to talk to me about your dog. Um, so, so six-year-old and a three-year-old. Yeah. And, and the title of the episode talks about grief with a second journey.

So let's first of all take time to celebrate and talk about your first, um, feeding journey with your eldest. Before you got pregnant and before you grew your family, what were your kind of feelings around breastfeeding? 

[00:02:03] Naomi Cappallo: I would've said they were very pragmatic. I went into it thinking, you know, 'I'm gonna try this, see how it goes.'

I just saw it as sort of the, the easier option in a way than maybe formula. Um, you know, it's just there and ready to go, um, uh, cheaper. So yeah, that was kind of my, my attitude going into it. Now looking back, I can see that there was definitely, um, more to it than that, and there was, um, a sort of emotional aspect to it as well.

[00:02:34] Emma Pickett: Okay. I kind of like that though actually, 'cause in some ways I think if we put too much weight on it, that can add a, a huge amount of pressure. And actually there's something quite nice about it's cheap, it's practical, my body makes it, why not do it? Um, there's something very sensible about that. Can I ask about your accent?

You don't sound Canadian. Where are you from originally? 

[00:02:56] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah, so I'm originally from Manchester in the UK. Um, I don't think I have a particularly strong Mancunian accent at this point, but yeah, I'm not ... I am a Canadian citizen now, but yeah, not originally from here. 

[00:03:09] Emma Pickett: Okay. And what's the sort of Canadian situation when it comes to feeding support?

Is hi- high feeding rates where you are? Is it sort of very normalized? What's the kind of culture around it? 

[00:03:20] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah, I mean, Canada is a big country, so it's different in different parts of the country. Where I am living now, um, it's quite a small town, about 5,000. It's very popular with young families, so I would say there's a lot of breastfeeding.

I don't know, I don't have a number specifically, but, um, I see a lot of breastfeeding, um, including, uh, much older kids as well, two, three-year-olds. Um, so yeah, where I'm n- where I am now, I feel like it's probably A high rate, but it may be not reflective of the country as a whole. I think it's, um ... Yeah, I'd be interested to look into the numbers, but it's, it's probably similar to, to the UK I would think.

[00:04:05] Emma Pickett: Okay. So the UK is traditionally considered to have very, very low breastfeeding rates. In fact, there was a report that came out sort of 10 years ago or so now that said we would have had the lowest breastfeeding rates in the world, would you believe? Okay. Um, the, the UK and Saudi Arabia. But they were taking that figure from a previously canceled infant feeding survey, so I'm not sure we actually know what the rates are in the, in the UK 'cause we haven't had that, that survey published for quite a long time.

I'm gonna guess Canada's a little bit higher, but I'm not asking you to be a c- expert on your, on your nation's breastfeeding. Let's talk about you instead. Tell us about Clara's birth. So Clara being your eldest, tell us about her birth and, and your breastfeeding experience in the very early days. 

[00:04:45] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah.

So, well, we had a very quick labor. It was six hours, um, which surprised me. But yeah, she did the, the breast crawl straight away, bobbing around. Um, so we, um, were able to try breastfeeding straight away, and then I was in the hospital for 24 hours and had access to a lactation consultant. So whenever she needed feeding, I would buzz for them and, and they came and, and helped me with sort of positioning her.

And it was feeling uncomfortable to begin with, um, but they was, you know, told me that the latch was, looked good. Um, and so yeah, we kind of kept going with that. I also had, once we went home, uh, the hospital had a, um, a breastfeeding clinic that I could go to anytime during the first six weeks So it was, it continued to be uncomfortable, and was having some, um, sort of damage to my nipples.

But I was able to go to this, this clinic and, and that was, like, amazing. I think everyone should have should have that 'cause they were just so patient. And whenever I would feed Clara there, it, it didn't hurt as much. Like, they were really able to, to help me a lot. And then I think it was, uh, only when she was about three months old that it sort of, um, I feel like it fully clicked, and, um, it, it wasn't painful or uncomfortable for me.

Um, and I was able to feed her in sort of more positions. And, um, yeah, it kinda went, took off from there, I think. 

[00:06:26] Emma Pickett: Gosh, three months is a long time for someone to be in pain. You mentioned at the beginning about, oh, you know, it's cheaper. I'll, I'll make it work. But it sounded like already you'd switched into kind of this mode of a parent who wants to make breastfeeding work for, for deeper reasons.

Would that be fair, that something had kinda clicked inside you and you started to feel differently about it? 

[00:06:44] Naomi Cappallo: I think so, yeah. It wasn't sort of excruciatingly painful. I mean, yeah, it was still uncomfortable. Um, I mean, we... I should sort of backtrack a little bit and, and say that, you know, she was, I think this isn't unusual, but she was losing, I think it was, like, more than 10% of her birth weight in the first week.

So we did do some, um, top-ups with formula Um, but we only had to do that for, um, a week or so 

[00:07:13] Emma Pickett: Yeah, and even though you're in quite a remote area, you've got that support group, which is fantastic 'cause there are definitely parts of the UK where somebody might find one group a fortnight, one group a month.

So that's, that's definitely... And the fact you mentioned lactation consultants in hospital, again, that is not necessarily standard practice over here, so I'm really glad you, you got that support. So it started to get more comfortable. Obviously, weight gain, I'm guessing, wasn't a concern and the, and the, as the top-ups had dropped.

How did things continue for that, the rest of that first year with Clara? 

[00:07:42] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah, so we, we exclusively breastfed till six months. Um, around, sh- she was around five months when the first pandemic lockdown happened. So I ended up, um, not going back to work for quite a long time. I, I was home with her till she was two.

And I would say by, by the time she was about a year, I did feel ready to stop for myself- 

[00:08:11] Emma Pickett: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:08:12] Naomi Cappallo: but continued feeding her till she was two, um, in part because I just didn't kind of know how to, to get her to stop. And, and we were home together so much, you know, I was just kind of there and, um, you know, she'd, she'd just come, come over and lift my top up.

Um, e- eventually, by 18 months, we were down to just doing a feed before bed, and then that felt much more manageable than just the kind of constant, like, snacking, I would say. 

[00:08:41] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I think a lot of people carried on feeding because of the pandemic. I, I definitely noticed a whole new generation of, of toddler feeders who probably would not have carried on feeding if it hadn't have been for the pandemic.

So you were at home working from home, or were you kind of on furlough w- w- and your partner was working at, at home as well? 

[00:09:01] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah, so my partner, just before the pandemic actually, had gotten a remote job, so he was working from home. Um, so that was, that was great. Um, I was kind of between jobs. Um, I'd just finished, um, a job before I went on maternity leave.

Sort of thinking I would, I wanted to be at home with her at least till she was six months, and then I would sort of start looking for a job. But then obviously, pandemic, job boards dried up. Um, and I, I will say we w- we were... So my older daughter was born in Toronto, so she wasn't born where we're living now.

Um, and we ended up moving out here, um, in 2020. So just with everything going on, um, I was, I was just home with her full time and, and not working 

[00:09:47] Emma Pickett: Gosh, so you moved right in the m- middle of everything, so that's pretty in- pretty intense. What, I'm not asking you to remember all the details, but what were the rules in Canada when it came to lockdown?

I'm, I'm guessing pretty similar that you were allowed to leave the home to exercise and that sort of thing, and shop. Um, how strict were things? 

[00:10:05] Naomi Cappallo: It was fairly strict. I think it was probably similar to, to the UK, sort of talking to family back there. Um, so yeah, we were just sort of encouraged to be home as much as possible.

Um, I think we were allowed to leave the house to, to walk and exercise. Um, there wasn't, like, a limit on that. And then, um, we were actually, my, my husband was going to the supermarket rather than me going. Because of the breastfeeding, I would've had to take Clara with me because she also wouldn't take a bottle, so at that point I couldn't, like, pump and, and leave her.

So, um, just to kind of keep things safer. But we hadn't been in Toronto very long. You know, we didn't have family there. We didn't really, um, know sort of our neighbors or, or have close friends there. So I would say it was... And we were in, in, like, a, a suburb as well, so it was pretty isolating for us personally.

Um, yeah. 

[00:11:03] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I can imagine. And presumably, you mentioned you still have some family back in the UK. Under normal circumstances, would they have flown over to meet Clara and that presumably wasn't possible as well? Did you not have any family contact either? 

[00:11:17] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah. So I mean, we were lucky that she was, you know, it wasn't till she was five months that it started, so up until that point we'd had actually sort of a constant stream of, of friends and family visiting, which was great.

But yeah, once COVID happened, um, my family weren't allowed, like, legally couldn't come into the country. The rules were, um, loosened a little bit for the US, and my husband is from the US, so his family, um, were able to visit. I think Clara was around one they were able to come over. Um- So yeah, but it was a long time that I didn't see my family from the UK.

[00:11:58] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And, and then tense feeding a little toddler who doesn't want to stop feeding when you were ready to stop feeding. I'm just mindful of the fact you said that, you know, at 12 months you'd have been okay to stop and, and, and Clara wasn't having it. But interesting, so you n- you, did you have to nudge her to get down to that one feed a day?

Did you remember sort of putting limits in place? How did that transition happen? 

[00:12:20] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah, so I, I was lucky to, once we moved out here, I joined a, an online group of, of local parents, um, led by, um, a woman who had been a doula for many years and had just a lot of experience, and she was always really helpful.

And so she advised that I just pick a spot, and that's where I feed her, and she doesn't get to feed anywhere else. So I started doing that, and that kind of, um, helped bring the number down, and we would just feed on this one chair that was in her bedroom. Um, and I think just, yeah, I don't know if it was just that or, yeah, sh- she also probably was okay with, with dropping some feeds.

Um, 'cause it wasn't, you know, I mean, it, it was a lot of just quick snacking. I think it's, you know, if you imagine, like, you had a bowl of, you know, sweets or candy there, and you're just gonna kind of snack on it, and if you don't see it, then, um, you don't. Yeah. So I think it was just a bit like that. 

[00:13:22] Emma Pickett: Yeah, and I, I love the, I love the location boundary method.

I think that works really, really well. I don't think enough people talk about it, actually, to say, "Oh, no, ab- absolutely you can have a feed, but we've got to go up to your room, and we'll be on that chair, and we won't be with anyone else, and it's gonna be a bit boring." Um, and they'll go, "Actually, you know what?

I'm all right, thanks. We'll just- "... we'll just stay here and do some playing instead." Yeah. It can work super well because they feel like they have agency as well in that, in that, that they can choose to do that if they want, but, but why would they? It's very efficient. So you're down to that one feed, and then how did things come to an end?

[00:13:53] Naomi Cappallo: Uh, so when she was around two, we, um, flew out to the US, to the East Coast, for a wedding. Um, and one of the evenings, um, my husband and I were at a rehearsal dinner, and I wanted to have a drink. Um, I hadn't been drinking up to that point, um, even though, you know, we weren't doing that much, we, she wasn't feeding that much.

Um, I just was kind of paranoid around that, so I didn't, I just kind of refrained from drinking, and I, so I had a drink that night. Um, some family were looking after Clara. Um, and so once we got back, I, I just said, "You know, we're not, not gonna feed tonight." And then I think- In the coming days we maybe fed once or twice more.

Um, I think on the flight back she got pretty cranky and we, we did a feed then. Um, but once we were home it, yeah, I just did her normal bedtime routine but without the feed, and she was fine with that. And yeah, we didn't feed after that. 

[00:14:56] Emma Pickett: Just f- just faded. Yeah. Sounded like she was ready as well. Didn't sound like it took an enormous amount of effort.

So if someone had asked you, "Okay, you've finished. What an achievement. You've survived a pandemic. You've got, you know, you've come to the end of a two-year feeding journey," how would you have summarized that experience for you? Or despite the pain and despite the toddler pressures, how are you feeling about, about your feeding journey?

[00:15:21] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah, I mean, if you'd asked me, like, immediately at the time, I probably would've, um, thought differently about it. But yeah, looking back, I'm, I am proud of myself for, um, yeah, like you say, kind of it was a very difficult situation. And, um, I, I'd say I survived it. Um, I don't know that I thrived, but, um, yeah, I'm, I'm proud of that.

And yeah, there's part of me that likes to be able to say like, "Oh, I breastfed for two years." Um, even though, as I said, like, the story's a little bit more complicated than that. 

[00:15:55] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah. No, I think you've absolutely every right to be proud. Let, let's talk about your second pregnancy. So how long was it before you fell pregnant with Juniper?

[00:16:05] Naomi Cappallo: Um, I think we were already trying while I was still breastfeeding, um, Clara. Um, and so yeah, Clara was around three when Juniper was born. Um, so she was kind of a toddler turning to, into a three-year-old, quite independent three-year-old, um, during the pregnancy 

[00:16:24] Emma Pickett: And if I'd spoken to you during your pregnancy and said, "Okay, what are your plans for feeding this time round?"

How would you have answered that question? 

[00:16:31] Naomi Cappallo: I was sort of thinking about, um, you know, looking back at the experience with Clara. Um, I had toyed with the idea of already, um, getting some formula and having that on hand just because of the... It was pretty s- like stressful at the time, especially with the first child with, with Clara losing weight.

And, um, yeah, I also, you know, those, those first few days when, um, your milk's not come in yet, and they're just hungry. And, um, so I kind of had thought about, um, having, having that on hand. Uh, we didn't do that in the end. Um, but yeah, I mean, I, I would say I planned to, to breastfeed, but I didn't really question it on sort of a deep level.

It was just, you know, well, I did that last time. And so I, you know, I set up the, um, the chair that I'd breastfed Clara in. I had the same breastfeeding pillow. Um, and I, I think part of me hoped that it was gonna be easier this time, like it's the second time, um, and maybe it wasn't gonna hurt. And, um, yeah, I kind of went into it just, I think I just thought it was gonna happen and it, you know, it wasn't gonna be a challenge.

[00:17:43] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Well, and it was your normal. That's what you'd been doing, and that's how you'd previously parented. It just felt like your normal, so I'd imagine you didn't necessarily put a huge amount of thought into it. And, and tell us about Juniper's b- Juniper's birth 

[00:17:56] Naomi Cappallo: So it was even quicker this time. Um, I kind of went into it, um, prepared for, for a faster labor, but this, um, was an hour and a half, so it was very intense.

[00:18:07] Emma Pickett: Wow. That's an hour and a half from, from first noticing a twinge? 

[00:18:11] Naomi Cappallo: Well, it, the first contraction just kind of hit, like, pretty hard. 

[00:18:15] Emma Pickett: Wow. Did you have a chance to get anywhere? Were you, were you at home? What, what happened? 

[00:18:20] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah, so yeah, we were at home. Um, I was... In fact, my husband and I were just, just heading to bed, um, we were...

I think it was the day after my due date. Um, so trying to get an early night, get some sleep, and then, yeah, as I lay down, that first contraction hit, and I was kinda like, "Oh, okay." And, um, my husband was very nervous about getting to the hospital, so and yeah, it was... We'd had quite a lot of s- snowstorms around then as well, so, um, yeah, it was, it was pretty icy out.

And, uh, basically after that first contraction, um, he rang the midwife and was like, "Uh, I think we need to come in." And the midwife's like, "Oh, I've never heard of anyone coming to the hospital after three contractions," or something at that point. But he was kinda like, "No, no, we need to do this." Um, and I'm grateful for that, 'cause I was a bit like, "Uh, I don't think we need to rush quite that much."

But yeah, he just kinda got me in the car and we made it to the hospital. Um, and yeah, I mean, contractions were pretty, getting pretty intense at that point. Um, so we did make it to the hospital, but, um, yeah, pretty much got to, like, the delivery room and the midwife showed up and I was like, "You know, you need to check, like, how dilated am I."

Um, and she's like, "Oh, I don't think I need to check just yet." And I was like, "No, no, I think you do." And then, you know, she checked, and she's like, "Oh," like, "you're ready to push." Um, so yeah, we were, um, lucky that we, we, we did get there just in time. 

[00:19:48] Emma Pickett: Yeah, gosh, you, you knew your body. How, who was looking after Clara?

Just as an aside, 'cause lots of people who have two kids are worried about that. 

[00:19:56] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah, so, um, my mother-in-law was with Clara, um, which we were very grateful for. Um, she had originally been g- she had g- um, planned to go home, I think, the day before, and then she extended her stay. Um, so yeah, we were very lucky that, that she was still there, because I think, yeah, we didn't have a backup from that, so she would've, yeah, Clara would've had to come to the hospital with us.

[00:20:23] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah. Wouldn't be the first time someone had done that, but not, not a first choice. Um- Yeah ... so you have Juniper on you. Did they do a little breast crawl as well? What was the story with Juniper's beginning? 

[00:20:35] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah, she, um- It was, I think it was a little bit slower to, to get to that point because she had a lot of, like, gunk that she was coughing up.

Um, so, um, yeah, she wasn't really, like, crying to begin with and, um, they, but they were like, "You know, she's fine, just needs to cough this," or, you know, "get rid of this stuff that's, that's in her throat," or whatever. Um, but once that was sorted out, um, yeah, she... I d- I don't, I don't remember if she did, like, a breast crawl, but, um, I do remember the midwife sort of asking if I wanted to try feeding.

And the midwife was great. She got me all set up, um, with, like, tons of cushions, like propping me up and making it really comfortable. Um, and then, yeah, Juniper latched, and immediately it was, like, painful and I was like, "Oh no." But I just assumed it was gonna get better. Um, so she, she actually fed a lot that first night, whereas with Clara, she had kind of slept for about five hours or so a- after- Okay

after her birth. But Juniper was just, um, she was, she was a big baby as well. She was over nine pounds, so she, yeah, she just came ready, ready to eat, um, and ready to go. And yeah, so she was feeding on and off through the night. 

[00:22:00] Emma Pickett: So you're not getting any sleep at all- 

[00:22:02] Naomi Cappallo: No ... 

[00:22:02] Emma Pickett: immediately after birth? 

[00:22:03] Naomi Cappallo: No, and I, I think with, like, it being such a quick labor as well, I had s- just so much adrenaline still, like, going through my system.

Um, so I'm not sure I would've gotten that much sleep anyway, but yeah, I was kind of, um, yeah, having to, to feed her pretty regularly, and as soon as I would put her down in the little bassinet she would just start chewing on her hand again. Um, and yeah, she was just very alert and kind of looking around and, yeah, she, she just, she just wanted to, to get going.

[00:22:34] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And you mentioned that you were in pain. That's not getting easier as the feed progresses? You're at the same level of pain throughout the whole feed? 

[00:22:41] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah, so it was, um... And they were, they were pretty short feeds, and she was kind of falling asleep pretty quickly, but, um, yeah, it was, it, it was still painful.

Um, and then yeah, the, the midwife came to dischar- discharge us the next morning, um, and I, I mentioned about, about it being painful, and she gave me some, um, nipple shields and, um, a prescription for, um, a cream for my nipples. And yeah, then we were heading home, um, pretty quickly after she was born. I think it was, like, yeah, maybe 12 hours.

[00:23:18] Emma Pickett: Okay. So no time for any lactation consultant support or anything in the hospital. It was one midwife conversation, "Here are some shields, off you go." Um, h- how did you get on with using the shields? Did you try and use them? 

[00:23:29] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah, so the second night, so her second night after she was born, um, I was trying to use them.

Um, at first she didn't really like them, um, but I think as the night went on, again, it was the same thing of just back-to-back feeding the whole night. Um, and eventually kinda got the hang of it, but I felt like my nipples were still painful. Um, I was starting to get some, some damage to them. Um, so I didn't use them again after that.

Um, yeah, I... Just kinda seemed like this extra thing that was kind of annoying as well. Um- Yeah ... yeah. 

[00:24:09] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah, they don't work for everybody. I mean, that, just putting them on and finding them and cleaning them and... It's just a whole nother layer, isn't it, when you're already potentially feeling quite stressed.

[00:24:19] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah. 

[00:24:19] Emma Pickett: So it's, it's the second day, you're home. Do you get someone visiting you the day you come back? That sometimes happens in the UK. Do you get a midwife, community visits? 

[00:24:28] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah, so I think it was the first two weeks, um, we got, um, visits. So yeah, that first, um, sort of full day back at home, um, we had a, a midwife, um, come, and I, yeah, I mentioned about the, the feeds being painful.

Um, and she sort of said to me, um, you know, "Use the cream," and she suggested putting, um, clingfilm over my nipples, like making little squares of clingfilm and putting cream on and, and putting that over the top. Um- Oh ... and so she said, you know, "Between feeds, try and do that." But because she was feeding almost constantly, I didn't really have chance to do that.

Um- So yeah, that, that didn't end up kind of helping much 

[00:25:19] Emma Pickett: I'm just imagining I'm, with my breasts, I think the clingfilm would've not been able to hang on. They would've just gone, disappeared. Um, um, so no one's really looking at your positioning. No one's really giving you suggestions or working out what's happening with the pain.

[00:25:34] Naomi Cappallo: Not really. I mean, I was being told that the latch looked good, which was the same thing that happened with Clara, even though it was uncomfortable. I kept being told, you know, she has a good latch, um, which was a little bit frustrating. Um, but yeah, I think 'cause everything looked good and, and she seemed to be doing okay, um, yeah, they didn't spend a whole lot of time on that.

[00:25:57] Emma Pickett: But you're getting damaged. You're starting to bleed and- 

[00:26:00] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah ... 

[00:26:01] Emma Pickett: there's, there's damage on the nipples. So f- it's not good, is it? Just to state the blooming obvious. It's obviously not right. Just 'cause it looks externally right, it doesn't mean internally things are right. 

[00:26:10] Naomi Cappallo: Mm-hmm. 

[00:26:10] Emma Pickett: I'm so sorry that is the situation that you're in.

So, so first week you're bleeding, you're cracked, you're damaged, and someone's just giving you cream, and, and, and Juniper's feeding constantly, so you're not even getting a chance to have a break at all. 

[00:26:24] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah. 

[00:26:25] Emma Pickett: What kind of support is around you? Have you got your husband saying, "What are you doing? Should this be what we're doing?"

I mean, w- what was everyone else saying? 

[00:26:33] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah, I don't think we discussed it in depth. I think he, you know, having gone through somewhat similar experience with Clara, I think he probably, you know, assumed that we'd sort of keep going and then it would be, it would work itself out. Um, I think we were just kind of in survival mode.

I mean, we had a three-year-old. Um, it, yeah, looking back, it was just kind of chaos in a way. And, and my mother-in-law had, um, yeah, she, she had gone to fly home. There was another snowstorm. She couldn't fly home. She had to come back. Um, ended up, um... So this was also five days before Christmas, so she ended up having to come back and spend Christmas with us.

I think, you know, there was just so much going on with the toddler. It was, we were just sort of, yeah, in this survival mode and, and not really kind of questioning it too much, I think, at that point. 

[00:27:29] Emma Pickett: Yeah I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got The Story of Jesse's Milkies, which is a picture book from two to six-year-olds that really tells the story of little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways.

Maybe there'll be a new baby sister, maybe his mom will need to practice parent-led weaning, maybe he'll have a self-weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we're there to support them through all of them, and also, we sometimes have needs too.

Also on endings, we have Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child. There are also chapters on different individual situations, like weaning an older child when there's still a baby feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation.

Then we have Supporting Breastfeeding Past the First Six Months and Beyond that's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond. What are the common challenges, and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey.

Then we have The Breast Book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14-year-olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is. I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives. So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful.

If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley Press website. That's uk.jkp.com. Use the code MMPE10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful. It really, really makes a difference.

And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you. I guess it kind of felt almost like a rerun and not what you were hoping for. You were not hoping for this, but I guess it wasn't so different from what you'd experienced with Clara. Or, or did it feel different for you?

Did it, was it a different level of pain? Were you thinking, "No, hang on, this is not quite like it was"? 

[00:29:51] Naomi Cappallo: So by the third, Juniper's third night, again, it was feeding through the night. Um, it was starting to get to a point that it was like Just excruciatingly painful. Like, I was just kind of in tears, like, trying not to sort of howl with pain because I didn't wanna wake everyone up.

Um, and yeah, at that point I was just... I mean, I'd barely slept in, like, 72 hours. Um, I was really starting to, like, yeah, my, my sort of mental health, I think, was, like, starting to plummet at that point. Um, and yeah, I was like, "This, this isn't..." I, I also felt like I couldn't really, I couldn't enjoy being with Juniper.

I couldn't look after her properly. Um, you know, she would feed and then fall asleep, and if I held her she would kind of stay asleep for a little bit longer and, and not need to feed. Um, but you know, at some point I, I needed to change her diaper and, and I was like, "I don't, I don't wanna, like, put her down.

She's gonna wake up if I change her diaper." Um, sorry, nappy. Um, 

[00:31:00] Emma Pickett: don't worry. We've, we've seen enough Modern Family, et cetera. We can translate. 

[00:31:04] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah. 

[00:31:04] Emma Pickett: So you're obviously living in fear of knowing that the next feed is gonna be excruciatingly painful, like any, any person would, and plus you've got all those baby blue hormones that arrive in that first week as well, so you've got this sort of hormonal surge and, and presumably you've got, um, your eldest daughter that you're worrying about too, and worrying how she's getting on and, and, you know, h- so there's, there's a heck of a lot happening here.

And I'm just, just hearing that you're not really getting any specialist lactation support. There isn't really anyone saying, "Okay, I think the latch looks okay, but you are in pain. We need you to see somewhere else. You need to be referred somewhere else." There wasn't any kind of signposting to really work out what was going on.

[00:31:47] Naomi Cappallo: No, th- there wasn't. I mean, looking back, I, um, wish that I did have, like, a lactation consultant on speed dial, you know, if I'd, um, sort of privately, um, hired a lactation consultant. But I just, yeah, kind of went into it not really thinking it was necessary or really being aware that that was something I could do.

So yeah, there wasn't any kind of specialist, um, support at that point. 

[00:32:15] Emma Pickett: And I guess if someone who you trusted had said to you, "This latch is okay," y- why would you think that you had to see someone else? I mean, w- you almost kind of would assume that that was right, that was, you know, you just have to tough it out.

You just have to wait. Um, but I'm guessing it was getting to the point where you, you weren't able to do that. It was just feeling too hard. 

[00:32:33] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah. It was, it was so painful and, um- It, it was more painful on one side, so I'd been sort of feeding her on, on the other side. But at some point I think that breast was just empty, and she, she didn't, she didn't wanna have that anymore.

So I th- yeah, I think it was maybe 5:00 in the morning or something. I, I woke my husband up, and I said, um, you know, "Take the baby and hold her s- so that she'll sleep for a little bit, and I'm gonna get a little bit of sleep. And then, um, you know, as soon as the supermarket opens, I want you to go and buy some formula."

Um, and yeah, at that point, my plan was just to sort of try and get some sleep and let my nipples heal. Um, I figured, you know, we'd do a day or two of formula and, and then kinda get back to breastfeeding. 

[00:33:25] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you knew that your body needed a rest. It was time to, to introduce formula and give your body a chance to have a break.

Were you... So you were thinking about restarting after that break. So were you expressing during that time when you were giving bottles? 

[00:33:40] Naomi Cappallo: No. Um, which I wish I had been doing. Um, I think, uh, a midwife did mention, like, oh, you know, f- um, if it's, things are getting painful, um, you know, have a cold shower or put cabbage leaves on your breasts.

Um, but yeah, it didn't, I don't... For some reason it just didn't click for me that like, oh, my milk's gonna be coming in and, and that's gonna be an issue. Um, I'd never had, um, mastitis with, with Clara. Um, so it just kind of, I didn't think to, to pump. And I think it was just, um, it was so painful. Like, I didn't, I think I didn't want to pump as well because that, I felt like that was gonna hurt just as much.

[00:34:25] Emma Pickett: So your husband goes and gets the formula, comes back, and you do have tho- that rest. You said a m- couple of days, two or three days was your plan. 

[00:34:33] Naomi Cappallo: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:34] Emma Pickett: And, and how did things work out at the end of that break? 

[00:34:37] Naomi Cappallo: So yeah, he, um, was then able to share the feeding, so we were able to kind of hand over through the night 'cause she still just wouldn't sleep anywhere but on us.

Um, she didn't wanna be in, in a cot or co-sleeping or anything. She wanted to be- physically on us. So, um, we could kind of trade off. And yeah, I just remember, like, him, um, you know, giving her a bottle in a, in another room, and me being sat on the couch and just, like, feeling this sense of relief of, like, you know, I wasn't gonna have to be in pain.

And so I think it was two or three, yeah, I'm kind of thinking about the timeline. Maybe two days after that was Christmas Day. We, my mother-in-law ended up coming back. We were having a, a lovely, um, Christmas morning. Um, we'd finished opening presents, and then I started to feel a bit off. Um, I was feeling a little bit kind of woozy, and then as time went on, I developed a fever, and was like, "Yeah, this, something's not right."

Um, I, I called the, the midwife, and, um, the on-call midwife was like, "Yeah, it's, it's probably mastitis. Um, you know, you need to start, um, either breastfeeding or pumping." Um, at that point, I felt so rough that I was like, "I, I don't want to, like, try breastfeeding." Um, I, I had a fever. I was, I think I was worried about, um Like making the baby too warm from, from my skin being really warm 

[00:36:19] Emma Pickett: Did you even have a pump?

Did you have anything at home? 

[00:36:22] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah, fortunately I had a double electric pump, um, which I bought when I had Clara and then just basically never used 'cause she wouldn't take a bottle. Um, so yeah, I was able to get that out. I didn't have chance to sterilize everything, which I regret now because, um, I did get that first pump quite a bit of milk.

Um, but then I just had to throw it away 'cause, yeah, I hadn't like sterilized the, the parts of the pump. Um, so yeah, I was just taking some painkillers and every few hours, um, pumping. Um, and that did seem to help with like, yeah, at that point my breasts were really full, like really uncomfortable. Um, so that kind of helped with, um, with that pain.

Um, and then the fever sort of subsided. Um, but then um, the next day it came back again and I was also starting to have, um, some abdominal pain and yeah, with it being, um, Christmas, like I- 

[00:37:29] Emma Pickett: Oh, I was gonna say, this is such a rough, it's not very Christmassy, but also, you know, there's less staff around, there are less services.

It's- 

[00:37:36] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah ... 

[00:37:36] Emma Pickett: such a rough time to be going through this. 

[00:37:38] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah. So I'd gone to, I, I wanted to avoid um, going to the hospital because, um, I, I knew that it was gonna be a long wait. Um, so I tried going to like a walk-in clinic. Um, and yeah, they were like, "No, we've got one doctor on, like y- you're not gonna get seen.

Go to the hospital." Um, so I went home again, but then that night again, the, I started getting a fever, um, having more abdominal pain, so I was able to ring like a, a helpline, um- To talk to a nurse, and, and he was like, "Yeah, g- go to the hospital." So I was like, "Okay." Um 

[00:38:18] Emma Pickett: So the abdominal pain, sorry to interrupt you, obviously it is possible for people to have more than one thing happening at the same time.

And, and someone who's just given birth with abdominal pain, I presume there's a risk that it could have been something in your uterus or a secondary infection, not necessarily just the mastitis. Is that one of the things that we're concerned about? 

[00:38:38] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah, so the nurse that I spoke to I think, um, was concerned it could be, um, appendicitis.

[00:38:45] Emma Pickett: Oh, no. Okay. 

[00:38:46] Naomi Cappallo: So, um, so yeah, when I got to the hospital and, and mentioned that, the pain, they were like, "Oh, yeah." They were, like, concerned that it was appendicitis. Um, I ended up, um, I think I was there for about 16 hours, um, mostly waiting. Um, they did an ultrasound. Um, and yeah, they said everything looks fine.

I think they did some swabs in case it was, like, anything to do with my uterus. Um, and they sent me off with a prescription for antibiotics. 

[00:39:20] Emma Pickett: So presumably you're not pumping in those 16 hours. You're not well enough probably, for a start, but also, you know, in that environment is pretty tricky, and, and everyone's at home.

And did anyone come with you to the hospital, or were you by yourself? 

[00:39:33] Naomi Cappallo: So my, um, my husband drove me there, so we had to get the kids dressed and in, in the car in the middle of the night. And then, yeah, he just had to, to go home again 'cause, uh, you know, he had to look after the children So I, I was there on my own.

Um, I mean, I will say, like, I was lucky the staff were wonderful. I mean, it, you know, it was, it's the busiest week of the year for them, um, 'cause a lot of family doctors, GPs are closed. Um, so they do, do get a lot of people coming in who would normally go to a family doctor. Um, and they were all so caring, and I felt really looked after, and it, so in that sense, it, it was, um, wasn't a t- that terrible, but yeah, it wasn't ideal.

[00:40:17] Emma Pickett: And you're not in a postnatal ward. You're on a general ward, so there's no one really thinking lactation or thinking what's happening w- with milk supply. No one's talking to you about whether you might be possibly wanting to maintain supply, or that conversation just wasn't happening? 

[00:40:33] Naomi Cappallo: No, I think one of the nurses, 'cause I, you know, I told them I had a, a not even a week old or maybe just a week old baby at that point.

And, and, um, one of the nurses had asked, like, "Oh, you know, how, how is she getting fed?" And I just mentioned that she was, um, taking a bottle and, and having formula, and that was, I think, the only kind of question I got along that line. Um, I think all the focus was that I had this pain and, you know, they had done blood work so they could see that there was an infection, and, and that was kind of the focus.

[00:41:05] Emma Pickett: So you're given the antibiotics. That's, those are oral antibiotics that you go home with. 

[00:41:09] Naomi Cappallo: Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:09] Emma Pickett: Um, gosh, you ... It's a lot going on here, isn't it? I mean, there's a heck of a lot happening. Um, I'm just trying to imagine how you even managed to get Christmas organized, let alone everything else and w- with all that's happening.

So you're at your home. You've got the oral antibiotics. Your husband's been bottle-feeding Juniper all the time you've been away, and do you remember making a decision about what you wanted to do with your feeding, or did it just carry on the way it was? 

[00:41:34] Naomi Cappallo: In a way, the decision was kind of taken out of my hands because I

So when I went to get the antibiotics from the pharmacy, the, the pharmacist there told me that I couldn't breastfeed whilst taking antibiotics, which ended up not being true. 

[00:41:50] Emma Pickett: Oh, no, no, no, no. Yeah. I was really hoping you weren't gonna say that. Okay. So you were given false information in that moment, and that meant that as far as you were concerned, that choice was out of your hands.

[00:42:00] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah. 

[00:42:01] Emma Pickett: And, and presumably you did not have the capacity to say, I don't mean in a rude way- ... I mean you were so run-down that to say, "Oh, excuse me, I would actually like t- to hear a bit more about alternative antibiotics, please. Can we con..." That wasn't something you had the capability of doing. 

[00:42:15] Naomi Cappallo: No, it didn't even occur to me, and yeah, I, I just thought at that point, like, "It's game over.

Like, yeah, we're just gonna be doing formula, and, and that's kind of it." Um- And I was on the antibiotics for two weeks, so it was quite a long stretch that I- 

[00:42:31] Emma Pickett: Oh, God ... 

[00:42:32] Naomi Cappallo: just wasn't feeling So 

[00:42:33] Emma Pickett: you can't even express and give her the milk. What's the point of pumping? I mean, two weeks of expressing and just, and throwing milk away is, is disheartening for anybody.

Um, and if you hadn't been pumping, you know, the couple of days beforehand, and you have mas- mastitis, you probably weren't feeling much like pumping anyway. Yeah, gosh, I'm so sorry, Naomi, that all that cascade of stuff all on top of each other, one thing after the other. It's just such a horrible, horrible situation to be in.

So you came home, you started the antibiotics, you got better. Juniper's bottle feeding. So you sort of felt like the decision to stop breastfeeding was not really your decision. It was kind of taken away from you by circumstance. 

[00:43:12] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah. Um, it, yeah, kind of just, yeah, like I said, I, I just thought, well, you know, this is, this is it.

We're done. Um, and like you say, there was just so much going on, and, like, we had, you know, we didn't have any family there at that point. Um, we had a three-year-old, um, a dog. You know, there was just, there was a lot going on. So it felt, looking back, I feel like, you know, I made the best decisions that I could in the moment, and it was very much in the moment because there just wasn't time to kind of, um, really reflect and think through things.

And, and, like, yeah, I wasn't pumping, partly because I just... I know, I know people do, like, pump and, and have other children, but it was just like, I don't know how I'm gonna, like, um, find time for this. Fortunately, so my care was with a team of midwives, so I was seeing different midwives. One of them happened to also be a, um board-certified lactation consultant, and she was the one who said like, "Oh, no, like, you could've, like, you could've been breastfeeding on the antibiotics."

But she did say like, "You know, there's still time. Like, you, you could, um, still, you know, there'll still be milk there for a couple of weeks. Like, there's still time." So she, yeah, she was great. She kind of sat down with me and, and talked through what I wanted to do, and, um, she said, um, you know, "Just, just try and pump as much as you can."

She, she suggested sort of going somewhere on my own, and just trying to relax, put some relaxing music on. And she told me to take, um, I think it was blessed thistle. Okay. Um, and so I was taking these sort of like massive capsules, um, for, uh, a week or so, and, and trying to pump as much as possible. Um, and then she came, came back to the house, um, got me all set up, um, to feed Juniper.

Um, and to my absolute amazement, Juniper did latch on, um, and started feeding, and I could hear that like sound of like her swallowing. Um, so that was kind of, yeah, that was a really amazing moment. Um, and yeah, one that I didn't think I was gonna have. Um, and so the, yeah, the midwife kind of stayed in touch with me, and, um, I was, um, you know, offering Juniper the breast, and she would feed a little bit.

It, she wasn't getting enough to like satiate her hunger, so we were doing formula then. Um, and some of the feeds, like my husband would do a feed, and it was just formula, obviously. 

[00:45:59] Emma Pickett: And you're in pain when you're breastfeeding? What was happening with the actual pain? 

[00:46:02] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah, so it, it wasn't hurting at that point.

It, it, um- 

[00:46:07] Emma Pickett: Okay ... 

[00:46:07] Naomi Cappallo: I mean, I think 'cause it, I wasn't feeding as frequently, it helped a lot But yeah, it kind of felt fine. Um, I wasn't having any pain. Yeah, the midwife was sort of like, "Well, um, you know, if you wanted to exclusively breastfeed, you, you know, you could probably do that. Um, you'd need to pump a lot more."

Um, and she also offered, um, medication that, that, um, helps with lactation. Mm-hmm. Um, I forget what it's called now. 

[00:46:38] Emma Pickett: I'm guessing probably domperidone if you're in Ca- in Canada. 

[00:46:41] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah, that was the one. Um, and ultimately I didn't do those things. Like I said, I just found trying to pump, um, really just finding the time to do that was, was really challenging.

Um, and I also at that point, like, I wasn't getting anything. Nothing was coming out when I was pumping. And then with the medication, um, the midwife had mentioned that, um, when you stop taking it, it can cause depression and anxiety. 

[00:47:12] Emma Pickett: Yeah. There's definitely s- been some problems with people tapering off and finishing taking it.

So it's a drug that while you take it, doesn't seem to be much of an issue with mental health issues, but during the weaning off process, some people have reported, um, having some really dark moments and, and not feeling great. So we- people have to be super careful when they come off it, and that did- obviously does not sound appealing.

[00:47:35] Naomi Cappallo: No, and yeah, having just gone through, you know, this really difficult time and my mental health wasn't feeling great, I was just like, "That, yeah, that doesn't sound like a good option." So yeah, at that point, um, we just continued with she'd have a little feed on the breast and then, um, yeah, most of her, like, calories was were coming from formula But, you know, and sometimes she would, um, in the night, you know, she would feed at the breast and, and fall asleep, and I was able to get her back down.

But yeah, for the most part, it was sort of a combination feeding. 

[00:48:09] Emma Pickett: So how old is she at this point when you're doing a little bit of breastfeeding every now and again, but most of it is formula? Or how, what age are we talking about? 

[00:48:19] Naomi Cappallo: Um, so that would've been from two or three weeks. Um, and we continued to do that till she was about three months, um, at which point she had a preference for the bottle, um, and didn't want to breastfeed anymore.

[00:48:37] Emma Pickett: So in a minute I'll talk... I'm gonna ask you a few more questions about that word grief that we touched on a little bit. Um, one of the things I'm vibing from you is you, you, you are quite a pragmatic person. You're not somebody who is necessarily going to, you know, get obsessed with the hypothetical and, you know, beat yourself up about the fact you did not ask for different antibiotics because, as you say, in that moment, that was what you were dealing with and, and you were very realistic about w- the pressures that were on you.

Um, so I'm wondering whether somebody who's like that doesn't feel as much grief because you feel, "I did the best I could. This was the situation. This is what I was, what was available to me. This is where we went. This is, you know, the things that were out beyond my control." But maybe that isn't necessarily protective 'cause I'm, 'cause you reached out to me to explain that you have been struggling with feelings of re- you know, reflecting on Juniper's journey.

So I'm just wondering at what point- Did those feelings hit you? 'Cause I'm just getting this very practical vibe from you, uh, in a really healthy way. Just this is what happened, and it, this is what needed to happen, and there's no point feeling badly about that or giving myself a hard time about that.

But I'm also guessing, of course, you can feel that way and also feel grief. Um, so when she stopped wanting to feed and started to reject the breast, in inverted commas, how was that feeling emotionally for you, and when did those difficult, difficult feelings of sort of breastfeeding grief start to hit you?

[00:50:04] Naomi Cappallo: Um, yeah, it's interesting you say that. Like, I think the, the grief hit pretty quickly after we started, um, introducing formula. So sort of in that, that first week, I remember just kind of being in tears thinking like, you know, "What have I done?" Um, and yeah, I would say I'm quite a pragmatic person, but I found in that early stage that I couldn't out logic my grief.

Um- Yeah ... you know, I could, I could tell myself like, "You know, it's fine. Formula's perfectly fine. Um, she's doing great. You know, like you say, I made the best decisions I could", but it sort of didn't touch my grief at that point. Um, I think I'm able to talk about it in a fairly measured way now because it has been like three years.

Um- 

[00:50:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah ... 

[00:50:55] Naomi Cappallo: so I mean, I know it's a, a kind of cliche, but time definitely has helped. But yeah, definitely in, in that sort of first couple of weeks, um, yeah, I was, I was really feeling low. Um- And yeah, my, one of the midwives, um, did the, um, it's like the Edinburgh Depression Scale. Yeah, yep. Um, and I didn't quite, um, my score wasn't, like, enough to say like, "Oh, you've definitely got postnatal depression", but it, it was, it was pretty high.

And so she, um, suggested, um, reaching out to a, to a counselor. So, um, I was able to do that and, and kind of talk through it. Um, and I remember one of the midwives sharing that she had had a similar experience trying to breastfeed twins and, and not being able to produce enough milk, and she was sort of like, "Uh, yeah, I was just in tears for weeks."

So that was kind of good to hear because there was a part of me that was like, you know, "Why, why is this, like, affecting me so much?" Um, like I, you know, I'd never heard of, like, grief in connection with breastfeeding. So just hearing that it was normal did help a bit, yeah. 

[00:52:12] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, there, there's, obviously there's the physical layer, you know, all the hormones and lactation hormones and what we sometimes call sort of weaning grief.

I mean, there's something that's completely beyond your control, and then there's also all the kind of intellectual, psychological stuff on top of that. And we know that, that people who don't reach their feeding goals are 10 times more likely to get postnatal depression. I mean, it's a m- massive increase.

Um, so it's, it's, you know, you're definitely, definitely not alone, and lots of people listening to this will also relate to that experience. So when that one midwife who said, "Oh, by the way, you can breastfeed again", that was something you kinda held onto with hope. That felt good to be able to think about restarting your journey.

But yet you didn't quite get to the point where you were able to drop the formula or, or guess f- family life just meant that that wasn't always practical. That wasn't something you could necessarily achieve. 

[00:53:04] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah. So I mean, I'm really grateful to that midwife, and I'm grateful that, um, you know, I was able to then do some breastfeeding.

Like, yeah, that first feed with, with Juniper after we hadn't been feeding for, you know, weeks was, like, I was just, like, laughing and just so happy. Like, it was a, a really beautiful moment, so I was really grateful to have that. And, and looking back, um, at the time I sort of told myself like, "Oh, I didn't breastfeed Juniper", but now I can look back and say, "Well, no, actually, I did.

I did breastfeed her." But I think at the time as, as, yeah, it was just, I think it was just the busyness of, like, having a toddler and, um, you know, she was sort of doing preschool and, and, um, but I was also home with her a lot, and it was just, yeah, it felt a lot to try and, um, yeah, pump regularly and, and kind of get back into, um, exclusively breastfeeding.

And I also, because I wasn't really able to get any milk out when I was pumping, you know, the formula was, was allowing us to share the feeding and, and I was able to get sleep. I mean, I was, you know, getting maybe five hours solid chunk of sleep a night, which was, I knew that that was important for my mental health.

So it was kind of this trade-off of, like- 

[00:54:32] Emma Pickett: Yeah ... 

[00:54:32] Naomi Cappallo: which thing is gonna be better for my mental health. And, and that was, you know, ultimately I wanted to be in a good place mentally to, to care for my child and, and enjoy that time as well. 

[00:54:44] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, no, I totally, totally get that. It's an impossible decision to make really, is it?

I mean, you, no one can sit down and go, "Okay, well, the percentage chance of you the ba-ba if we do this", so you, you just have to in the, as you say, it's all in the moment, isn't it? Listen to your guts, deciding what feels right in that moment. Um, so you said at about three months Juniper was like, "No, thank you.

Don't really fancy this anymore." Do you remember one particular day when you thought, "Uh-oh, this is it," or did it just very gradually taper off? 

[00:55:12] Naomi Cappallo: I do remember, like, a, a middle of the night feed where, um, she just, she, yeah, she just was fussing and, and didn't want to, to latch on. Um, and I, what I'd been doing is I would get up and make a bottle of formula, um, and have that there ready, and then I'd offer the breast.

So yeah, I don't know if it was just, like, she could smell the formula or, you know, it was just easier to get milk from a bottle than kinda doing the, the hard work of, of breastfeeding. Um, so yeah, I do have, like, a memory of, of that happening one night, and I think I just sort of was like, yeah, you know, I, I'd made this decision that I wasn't exclusively breastfeeding, and I also felt like, I mean, yeah, she's, she's a three-month-old baby but, you know, Juniper had sort of made this decision, and I didn't want to kind of force it too much.

Um, so yeah, I mean, again, like, you know, it was a pragmatic decision, but it, it was still, um, emotionally it was tough. 

[00:56:21] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I c- I mean, you mentioned that sort of wave of sadness in the very early days of using formula Did that sort of come and go? Did you have another wave when breastfeeding ended completely?

How did kind of that rollercoaster go? 

[00:56:37] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah, I think, yeah, I would describe it as like in the first few days it was intense. Like the first sort of when I originally stopped, um, breastfeeding and sort of those first weeks it was pretty intense. And then, you know, it, it kind of tapered off and it, I would say like a wave is, is a good way of describing it.

It would just kind of hit me in moments and I, um, was going to all sort of parent and baby groups, and so that was definitely a space that kind of felt a bit triggering sometimes seeing, seeing other moms breastfeeding and, and then it would kind of hit me again. Yeah, I think in the day-to-day I was, yeah, again, just so busy and, and looking after Juniper and, um, I think once she was getting a little bit older as well, I knew like, you know, when she's six months we're gonna introduce solid food and, um, I think that was really a distraction as well.

Um, so that kinda helped. 

[00:57:36] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so I'm gonna ask a really cheesy question here, so, so forgive me for that. If you had a time machine and you could go back and talk to yourself at any point in this journey, would you want to tell yourself to do anything differently? Do you look back and think if only, if only, or does your pragmatic side not go into that?

[00:57:58] Naomi Cappallo: Um, I mean, I have thought about it, not, not in a, like, in the sense of, like, necessarily regretting, but if I, if I did go back in time, um, to before Juniper was born, I would, I would have, um, found a lactation consultant. I would have hired a lactation consultant. I would have met with them before Juniper was even born and said, "You know, I had these issues last time," um, and sort of talked through that.

Um, and yeah, like I said, having, having someone that I could have, um, called in those first few days and really sit with me and, you know. 'Cause I, I mean, I don't blame the midwives. Like, they're busy. They have a lot of other patients to see. Um, so the fact that they didn't kind of have a lot of time in those first few days to sort of sit down with me and, and go over it, you know.

Um, so I definitely wish that I'd, I'd had that, um, kind of support. Um, I think that would have potentially helped a lot, but again, I don't know. Maybe not. Um ... 

[00:59:02] Emma Pickett: Yeah, you don't obviously... We don't know what's happening on that, in that parallel universe. 

[00:59:06] Naomi Cappallo: Mm. 

[00:59:07] Emma Pickett: One of the things I think does come across to me when I hear your story is how many decisions you were making by yourself.

I don't mean without your husband's support, but, you know, "Okay, let's start formula today. Okay, I'm not gonna be pumping. No one's talking to me about pumping when I'm not feeding. Um, you know, I'm coming back, and l- let's just not breastfeed." You know, there's a lots, lots of moments where you're making a decision on your own without having had a chance to talk it through with anybody, and certainly n- not having a chance to talk it through with anybody qualified in breastfeeding support.

Um, and I'm also mindful that someone told you your latch looks okay. Which is pretty significant in this journey as well because if they'd said, "No, this isn't right. Let's get you some help," you may not have even had mastitis. That may, that may not have even happened. Um, so there's, there's a lot about this that is out of your control, and I'm so sorry that this is how things went for you.

Um, so you moved to formula. You started solids. Um, and, and you said that time was a healer By the time Juniper's turning one, were you able to look back with more peace, or is, is that pain kinda hanging around? 

[01:00:11] Naomi Cappallo: I think even at, when she was one, I was still, um, kind of having these moments of grief again. I mean, um, I didn't go back to work till she was 13 months, so, um, I was home with her for a year and, um, spending a lot of time with other people, uh, other parents with little babies, and, um, again, just seeing, seeing them breastfeeding and, um, having this, you know, journey that I, I wasn't on was tough.

Um, I think, um, like I said, at some point I kind of realized that I'd been telling this story that, you know, I, I breastfed Juniper, uh, breastfed Clara, and I formula fed Juniper, and actually that's not the whole story and, you know, Clara had some formula and, and, and Juniper did get breastfed. So that was definitely a moment that helped kind of realizing that.

Um, but I think for, yeah, for a long time I was just like, you know, why, why is this still, like, affecting me and what, what do I need to do to kind of get over this? And, and I think, um, just realizing that, you know, that's kind of the nature of grief. Like, it, it can get easier with time, but you're never gonna sort of, you know, if you lose someone close to you, you're never gonna say, "Well, okay, now I've reached the point that, like, it's fine.

I'm fine about this," you know? Yeah. Um, it, it is something, and just sort of, yeah, I think coming to a place of, like, accepting, accepting that feeling and, and just kind of having to, um, to go through with that and, you know, I think it, grief is, is also useful in that it tells you, you know, this was something that, that mattered to me.

Um, I think also realizing that it was, you know, like I mentioned earlier, I couldn't just tell myself like, "It's fine, you know, she's doing great. She's healthy, um, formula is, is, you know, is a good option in this situation." So yeah, kind of, um, realizing that it, it was about more than just nutrition . It was about more than just making sure she's fed.

Um, you know, it is, breastfeeding is, is so much more than that and, and recognizing That loss and that kind of, it made sense to me a bit more then that, that it had been so difficult 

[01:02:36] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think what you said about grief not getting fixed. You know, no one ever expects you to get over the fact your spouse has died.

Mm. Um, no one says, "Five years, come on, love, you know, you should be sorted by now." And it's true for breastfeeding grief too. I meet people decades afterwards who absolutely hold onto it, and your life kind of just accommodates around it, doesn't it? And it just becomes something that's not necessarily with you every moment of every day.

How do you feel now when you see parents feeding? Is that something that still feels hard, or how, how do you feel when you kind of look on other people's journeys? 

[01:03:09] Naomi Cappallo: It's a mix of emotions, I think. Um, what's interesting to me is, you know, everyone's experience is so different. Um, you know, breastfeeding isn't kind of this monolith.

It's a very complex thing and, you know, some people, um, exclusively pump, some people feed for a few days, a few weeks, you know, people breastfeed till their kid is five. Like, it's such a, everyone has a story, a different story and different experience. So I think having gone through this, if, like, if I had to point to, like, a silver lining, I think it is that, um, I'm more able to sort of look at someone who's bottle feeding or formula feeding and rather than kind of going to a place of, like, judgment, which I think I would've done before, um, I'm like, you know, "What's their story?"

I think, um, when I see someone Whether they're breastfeeding or bottle feeding, whatever, um, that I'm more likely to kind of think, you know, what, what's that person's story? And I think, you know, that, that's, yeah, being able to be a more empathetic person is always a good thing, I think. So yeah, I think it's just kind of a mix of, of emotions at this point.

[01:04:27] Emma Pickett: And this is a question no one is ever allowed to ask, but I'm gonna ask it. Is, is two where you're stopping? There's no question of number three. 

[01:04:34] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah. Um, I think we're, we feel like our family is, is, is complete and yeah, with, with not having sort of... I think if we were gonna have more, um, we would've, we would need to have more family support around.

Um, and I also had really bad morning sickness with both pregnancies, so I just don't want to go through that again. Um, yeah, so we're, we're happy where we are. 

[01:05:02] Emma Pickett: Thank you so much for sharing your story today, Naomi. I really appreciate it. Is, is there anything we haven't talked about that you think it would be helpful to share?

[01:05:10] Naomi Cappallo: I can't think of anything. I mean, I think there's lots of resources out there for, you know, hearing other people's stories, and I would say that that's, that's useful as well. Reading and, and listening to other people's, um, experiences, going through a similar experience, um, was definitely helpful as well.

[01:05:29] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Um, Amy Brown, Professor Amy Brown has a book on breastfeeding grief and trauma that I think is, is, has helped lots of people I know, so I'm gonna pop that in the show notes if you're comfortable with that. 

[01:05:39] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah. 

[01:05:39] Emma Pickett: Um, yeah. Thank you so much for your time today, Naomi. I really appreciate it. Um, and, uh, yeah, good luck with your, uh, lovely family, and thank you so much for sharing your story.

And I'm so sorry that you went through everything you did. Um, breastfeeding grief is rough, but I think it, as you say, it's really helpful, I think, to share it with other people, and other people going through it, not feeling as, as alone is very special I think, so thank you. 

[01:06:03] Naomi Cappallo: Yeah, no, thank you for giving me this chance to share my story.

[01:06:11] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at emmapickettibclc and on Twitter at makesmilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist, and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.