The Bradford project - poems and stories

This week we’re celebrating the stories of the Bradford Project, a massive art, poetry and storytelling project led by artist Lisa Creagh in the Bradford area. Alongside Lisa, I’m joined by two participants, Aamta Waheed and Reena Kler, to talk about their breastfeeding experiences and how the project has helped them to understand their mothering journey. We’ll also hear poems from Hannah, Sonia and Sophie, and an extract from the Holding Time podcast, featuring Aisha.

You can find out more about the project at https://linktr.ee/holdingtimeproject and on Youtube at https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWtMCVY_Nuktw4w_hd6n54xqkEv3V0utk
You can follow Aamta on Instagram @‌aamtawaheedart 

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, by going to https://bit.ly/JKPbooks and using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing, and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm joined today by two mothers from Bradford, Reena Kler and Aamta Wahed and they're both from Bradford because we're gonna be talking about the Bradford Project, which was part of something called the Holding Time Project.

And I'm not going to lie, I'm slightly overwhelmed by how much work went into this project and I'm slightly overwhelmed by how many people were involved. It was led by the photographic artist Lisa Creagh, um, and you can look at some of the links in the show notes to learn a bit more about it. But we're just gonna get a flavor of it today by talking to Reena and Aamta.

Thank you very much for joining me, guys. I really appreciate it. Let's start with you, Aamta. Help me describe to people who don't know what was the, the Bradford Project? 

[00:01:35] Aamta: So the Holding Time project was a, um, a project around breastfeeding and experiences of women, um, from all different backgrounds, uh, and the individual stories around breastfeeding, whether that was the more successful breastfeeding story or not so much.

Um, but capturing that in a, through a podcast or through poetry or through literature or through photography, um, some type of contribution. The project, you know, was really beautiful. There was an exhibition of the portraits and, um, a lot of, uh, people were involved. Um, and it was amazing. Yeah. 

[00:02:18] Emma Pickett: Y- yeah.

Amazing is the word. Yeah. I 

[00:02:19] Aamta: mean, 

[00:02:19] Emma Pickett: you can do a, you can do a deep dive on YouTube and get sucked into this world of women sharing their poems and sharing their stories. And- It was deeply personal ... you can also- 

[00:02:29] Aamta: Yeah, it 

[00:02:29] Emma Pickett: was very, very personal. Yeah. V- very, very emotional and, and it really opens up people, I think, to the world of m- maternity and motherhood and matrescence, which is a word I'm probably not saying properly, and, and breastfeeding, and the, the pain and the joys and the highs and the lows.

And I think anyone who's sort of entering the world of breastfeeding support for the first time needs to spend an hour looking at the Bradford project, listening to the podcasts, looking at the resources, because you really just get a flavor of that emotional depth. 

[00:02:57] Aamta: It, it was when it was happening in Bradford as well, 'cause it w- it's so diverse.

Everyone's story was quite different from one another because they came from completely different backgrounds and communities and cultures. So when you, when you actually go onto YouTube and you have a look, you'll see people from, that are worlds apart, um, which is quite interesting as well. Yeah. 

[00:03:20] Emma Pickett: Yeah.

Yeah. Thank you very much for your summary. Is there anything that we've missed in that description, Reena? What, well, tell us a little bit about your contribution. 

[00:03:28] Reena: Yeah. It, it, it's just, it's just lovely to reminisce really about it. Just for me, it was really cathartic, really, uh, just an opportunity to kind of sit with myself and really reflect on kind of the journey and what's gone on and, you know, we're so busy and we're so, um, wrapped up in our worlds with looking after the little people that we don't really get that chance to stop and think for ourselves.

And I think that was the best thing of all of it. And knowing that not only that you weren't alone, but that things are so different, you don't have to be the same and things don't have to go right, just made the whole The whole experience something that I just, I've, I, I don't know how you could ever replicate something like this going through it.

And I think motherhood is such a amazing journey, and seeing all these other women was, it, it, it was just, I, I just loved it. I thought it was amazing. But, um, we had the, uh, unveiling of the sculpture at the end. Um, and it brought all of us together, and even our partners, our children, that we were able to put faces to names and see these are the people that have been there for these mothers.

So, um, yeah, it was wonderful. 

[00:04:43] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And what you were saying about people not o- often having time to reflect, I think that was something that was super special. I mean, when you're a busy new mum and you've got all these pressures, you know, the chances of you sitting down and, and having a podcast-type conversation with someone and reflecting and, and going into sort of deep thought or, or writing a poem and getting to perform a poem, it's just not gonna happen, is it?

Unless someone sits down and makes it happen. And, and I'm super impressed actually that, that Bradford financed this because so many cities and communities wouldn't consider something like this important, and I think it really shows the value. And you guys are still buzzing from it years later. I mean, this is, this, this was a little while ago now, and I can see the impact it had on both of you- Yeah

and how empowered it, it f- made both of you feel. I don't want, mean to put that label on you, but that's the kind of vibe I'm getting from you. Let me start with you a little bit, Reena, and tell us a little bit about your breastfeeding experience. What was breastfeeding like for you? 

[00:05:37] Reena: The whole journey was, I would say for myself, was really positive.

But having this opportunity, it really opened up my eyes in a sense of actually things aren't that easy, and I was really sort of almost naive. Um, and I was able to sort of really empathize and look at the way other people are sort of going through. So it, for my journey was I just thought it was really normal to, to, to, to breastfeed for as long as you kind of want it.

But it wasn't until I was in the journey where it was always like, oh, you know, six months and then they can get weaned onto milk. And for me, it was growing up and seeing my mum. So my mum breastfed my younger sister, and we've got nine years, 11 years. Oh, God, really bad at maths. Um, and so growing up, my mum was the only person I ever saw breastfeed.

And for me, I just thought, "That's what I'm going to do." There was no sort of really discussion about it. It wasn't like, "These are your options." That's what I wanted to do as well. And she breastfed my sister till she was around two years, maybe a little bit older. 

[00:06:43] Emma Pickett: Okay, brilliant. 

[00:06:44] Reena: So when I, you know, when I started, when I got pregnant with my first, with my son, it was just kind of a given.

And yeah, I mean, it, it's like Aamta said, like the, the whole South Asian side, it's very, you know, it, it's not really spoken about. Um, and you've gotta make sure you're covered up. Um, there's this sort of almost like a kind of a negative blanket kind of over you, um, that I kind of felt at the beginning. But I had such a strong support network.

I had, um, you know, my, my, my husband, my best friend, my sister, they were all there, my brother, that really allowed me to thrive. They, you know, "What do you want? What do you need? How can we help?" Um, those are the sort of questions I was getting asked that allowed me to just make this my own journey. 

[00:07:34] Emma Pickett: So you had your, your baby in, in COVID.

Am I remembering that correctly?

[00:07:37] Reena:  Yeah. Yes. Yes. So I had my son in COVID in 2021, and then I had my daughter in 2023, and there was a period of time of six months I was tandem feeding. 

[00:07:48] Emma Pickett: Brilliant. 

[00:07:49] Reena: Which again, it, it was that whole natural weaning. And I also think a lot of it was, uh, you know, I- For me, it wasn't, not that it wasn't taxing on my body.

I just thought, "I can make do. Okay, I can... I'll just, I'll just hold on a little longer. I'll just keep going a little longer. Maybe, you know, the, the pain will stop. Maybe things will, will settle." That I, in the times where it was hard, I just kind of grit my teeth, which probably wasn't the best 'cause I wasn't at my best, and I know I wasn't feeling my best.

But when my son, he naturally weaned off at two years and six, seven months. 

[00:08:29] Emma Pickett: How old was your w- your daughter when he weaned? 

[00:08:31] Reena: Um, she was, this was in November. She was born in June. 

[00:08:37] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:08:38] Reena: So fairly small. 

[00:08:40] Emma Pickett: Okay. So some people listening to this who, 'cause I do have quite a few people who do tandem feeding that listen to the podcast, and some people hearing that will be like, "He, he self-weaned when he had all that lovely newborn milk?

I didn't even think that was a possibility." So here is hope for people who think that self-weaning never happens during a tandem feeding journey. 

[00:08:56] Reena: I mean, for me, you know, ignorance was a bliss. And in a sense, I just, I just rolled with it. I didn't read into much. I didn't really h- get the help or, you know, sort of really speak about it.

I just kind of went with the flow. And I think with me, I was, you know, I was off maternity when I had my, my daughter, but before that I was only working two days a week. It wasn't that I had to leave him for hours and days and, and I had to be away from him physically. I was still able to do a lot of the breastfeeding.

Um, and with him, I mean, I mean, I say naturally, it was just the whole, he was sleeping in his own bed. He wasn't, we weren't, um, co-sleeping where it wasn't readily available to, for him to have milk, and he just decided to sleep through, and dad became his best friend, and he wanted him on a night. And it just, the way it fell, and I just kind of ha- just went, went with it, as I have done throughout the whole of the breastfeeding journey.

I just kind of rolled with it. 

[00:09:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And it sounds as though you were able to do that because you had that support network. 

[00:09:58] Reena: Yeah. 

[00:09:59] Emma Pickett: Um, and that, that obviously made a huge difference. And, and you contributed a poem to the project- 

[00:10:05] Reena: Yeah ... 

[00:10:05] Emma Pickett: didn't you? 

[00:10:05] Reena: Yeah. 

[00:10:07] Emma Pickett: Why are you smiling? 

[00:10:08] Reena: I was sort of reading through them last night, and I was like, "Oh, gosh, it's just, it just, it brings it all back."

Okay. And, I mean, I've always been, like, a lover of writing, so when, when my husband saw this on the BBC website, going, "Look, this is right up your street. You need to do this," I'm so glad that he did because it was so up my street. 

[00:10:26] Emma Pickett: How would you feel about sharing a poem now? 

[00:10:29] Reena: Yeah, yeah, of course. I can, I can do that.

[00:10:31] Emma Pickett: That would be fantastic. Thank 

[00:10:32] Reena: you. Um, I've got a few. I'll go with- You choo- 

[00:10:35] Emma Pickett: you choose which one you'd like to share. 

[00:10:37] Reena: Oh, which one do I wanna share? Um- I think Lisa really liked my brain dump. Um- 

[00:10:44] Emma Pickett: Okay. Are we, we, s- we like the sound of a brain dump? 

[00:10:47] Reena: Um, so at the start, and I, I teach, so I do this actually within schools now.

Um, I'll just say, "Get your thoughts down on a piece of paper, just sort of freshen your mind." So we used to do this at the start of every session. Um, but she absolutely adored this. Swapping boobs. Which did he feed from before? I am tired. Why is the clock backwards? Go to sleep, little darling. You can do it.

I won't put you down. You can sleep on me. Cozy, cozy, my eyes hurt, but you're so cute, and Daddy is snoring. He's so loud. It's all right for some, eh? 3:00 AM club, I've heard of this. Don't particularly like this club, but hey, it won't be for long. It won't be forever. Wow, look at you. Daddy. Only yearning for sleepy Daddy.

Now- Where's Daddy? I want Daddy. But that's okay. I've got you forever. 

[00:11:43] Aamta: Aw. That's so sweet. That's lovely. 

[00:11:46] Emma Pickett: That's lovely. 

[00:11:47] Aamta: I don't think I've heard that one before, really. 

[00:11:49] Reena: Yeah, I mean, like I said, I've done, like, t- there was a couple, um, that we kind of did, but that one was the one that sort of, um- Yeah ... I did in the, um, in the session.

[00:11:57] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That's very vivid, that one I think- Yeah ... for anyone who's... I love the snoring husband reference. I think for anyone who has a partner- ... who's deeply asleep, they, they, they will absolutely relate to that one. 

[00:12:07] Reena: Yeah. And like, bless my husband, he'd always be like, "You know, wake me up. I'm here. Anything you need, you know, whatever."

And he'd just be snoring away. And I think- Yeah ... I can't really Dead to the world. I know. It's fine. Yeah. It's fine. I'll be okay. 

[00:12:21] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And the 3:00 AM club, the club we never want to join. Never. But we're certainly not alone. Um, thank you very much for sharing that. You mentioned that Lisa was obviously very much encouraging and part of this process.

Yeah. What kind of role did she have for you guys? Let me t- ask you, um, to w- h- when did you meet Lisa and how did she kind of get you involved? 

[00:12:40] Aamta: Um, I met Lisa quite a while ago. Um, it was, um, it was actually, I was at the Bradford Art Center doing another, being a participant in another event and she was, um, doing the poetry sessions and the, the, you know, the, the choi- the choir that, and the singing that she was doing through Holding Time.

So we briefly met and I went to a session as well. Um, and I just sat, I just went to one session. I just sat and I was writing and I'm, I'm not a writer. My, my background is an artist and a creative producer, but I'm not a writer. But I'm not, I haven't closed my mind to, to, to writing. So I sat and I was writing and it, it felt really therapeutic.

I didn't really get a chance to meet, um, Lisa, but then afterwards I went to a poetry event where I was just kind of listening to a poetry and then I was encouraged to go to the, to the mic and then perform my poetry that I just wrote. It wasn't a piece of poetry, it was just a, a piece of writing that I wrote from that session.

So later on, once I performed my poetry, I, that n- evening I emailed Lisa and we kind of connected. Um, I think this was in 2023 or '4, I'm not sure. Um, and it was in the middle of me programming a festival Um, and then we kind of, she was in and out of Bradford and we'd met a few times in cafes and restaurants, and she'd come and support some of my things and I'd come and support Holding Time.

And then it kind of quickly pro- progressed into me doing a p- a podcast and then a portrait, um, over the years. And then, uh, we've kind of developed this really nice friendship and we're thinking of ways how to progress and, uh, keep the legacy of Holding Time and, and- Yeah ... and mothering in a general. Um, so we started thinking about different projects and we came up with Another Mothering.

Um, so we're, we're thinking of doing, uh, some kind of festival in, uh, later on in the year This year, it's been, uh, quite a few years in the making. Um, hopefully it will be delivered some- some- sometime soon. And yes, we've, we've just developed this friendship, professional, uh, relationship and, and, and, uh, friendship as well.

[00:15:06] Emma Pickett: Tell me a little bit more about your work with the, with the Bradford Project. So you, you talked about a portrait, that's a photographic portrait, is it? 

[00:15:11] Aamta: Yes. 

[00:15:12] Emma Pickett: And, and that's a picture of 

[00:15:13] Aamta: you- Yes ... breastfeeding? No, no, no. So it's, my, my daughter was born in 2021, so my, my... And I've only got one child. Yeah, so my daughter at that time when I took the portrait was three and a half.

[00:15:27] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. So it was a picture of you as a, it was a sort of mother portrait rather- Yes ... than a specific 

[00:15:32] Aamta: breastfeeding portrait. So it was mother, and then my child, she was just kind of in my lap, kind of tried out- Okay ... a different, different position, different kind of, uh, poses, that kind of thing. Um, but she wasn't breastfeeding at that time because my, my breastfeeding story and journey was quite difficult and unfortunately it, you know, it finished at six months.

[00:15:54] Emma Pickett: Okay. Tell us a bit, if you don't mind, tell us a little bit about your, your breastfeeding experience. 

[00:15:59] Aamta: So yeah, I mean, with Rima, like Rima said that she had a lot of support and she had family and she had people around her. Like, for me, it was completely different. I didn't really have that support. I didn't really have, um, that connection with anyone.

Um, I was very, like, I had a severe postpartum depression. Um, and I think, um, because of that, um, I, you know when, when mothers, when, when, when mothers are usually pregnant and d- I had prenatal depression and I had postnatal depression, so I was going through this journey of- I'm so 

[00:16:35] Emma Pickett: sorry to hear that. 

[00:16:36] Aamta: It's okay.

I mean- 

[00:16:37] Emma Pickett: That must have... That's, well, it's not okay. Yeah. It must have been really, really tough. And at that point, I mean, 2021, things obviously were opening up a little bit, but- 

[00:16:44] Aamta: Yeah ... 

[00:16:45] Emma Pickett: you didn't necessarily have all the support you needed. 

[00:16:47] Aamta: Yeah. I mean, and it wasn't just because of ph- like, physically or economically what was happening, like the pandemic, it was because of the...

Like, I didn't, I literally had no support. And because, you know, when, when you have prenatal and postnatal depression or when you're kind of pregnant in, in a whole, I'm not sure if this happens to all women, but you kind of re-mother yourself, especially if you had a, a difficult relationship with, uh, parents in the past.

And I was kind of going through that. I was going through that experience of re-mothering myself. 

[00:17:21] Emma Pickett: That's such a powerful word, re-mothering. I'd, I'd love you to define it for us. What do you mean by that when you say re-mothering? 

[00:17:27] Aamta: So I was kind of, I was going through, like, all of... I've had a really d- difficult relationship with my mother.

Um, and a lot of things that have happened I've, I've always thought is questionable, and I've kind of- I've c- when I say re-mother, I mean, like, I've, I've gone through, like, all the different times in my life where things have happened and I've, and I've questioned why a mother would, you know, kind of do these things even though they're your child.

But then kind of told myself, I've re-mothered myself, I've re-loved myself, think, and then told myself, "Look, it's okay. It's okay." And, um, try to expli- like, go through it in my mind or destruct- deconstruct things or, uh, events that have happened in my life, in my mind, and given myself space and time to heal.

So yeah, that's what I mean by re-mothering, by healing- 

[00:18:28] Emma Pickett: Okay ... 

[00:18:28] Aamta: and re-emerging from those, those ti- those dark times. Because when you become pregnant, I think it's safe to say that most people love their child. Like, even when you're pregnant, like, you haven't physically got your child in your arms, you love your child, and you would do anything for your child.

And I think when I became pregnant, I had that, I had that really fierce, like, motherly connection, like, over my child. Like, I would do anything. Like, I-- there's nothing, uh, you know, my child is my everything. And then it kind of made me think, it ki- kind of made me question some things that my own parents did to me, or my own mother did in my ho- in, in the trajectory of my childhood and my adult life, and think Why and how 

[00:19:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah 

[00:19:25] Aamta: Um 

[00:19:25] Emma Pickett: Yeah.

It's deep stuff, isn't 

[00:19:27] Aamta: it? Yeah Heavy, heavy, deep stuff When you have postnatal depression, you kind of get into all of this, like everything that has happened to you in your life, you kind of replay it in your mind, and then it forces you to just, just look at yourself in the mirror, and then just force you to love yourself and accept and let go for the sake of your child so you, you can be the best mother you can possibly be for your child.

Um, so yeah, I went through that experience, and I was breastfeeding, and I was, I was literally just kind of going back to what we were saying. I was just getting, um, advice from apps and from, you know, booklets and stuff. But it's, I feel like it's not the same as when, uh, you have a mother that's like, that's your friend or your family that's gone through it and had real-life experiences and can give you real-life like remedies or tips and, and things.

I didn't have that, and I think I was also in the midst of like a very dark time in my, in my mind. So, um, so yeah, when I was pregnant and I gave birth, my milk didn't come in, um, which found-- which was quite difficult for me. And then once my milk came in, it didn't stop coming out. Different set of problems.

It didn't stop coming out. It was a problem. So when my child was on one boob, I had to have something on the other boob 'cause it just would leak like a milk factory, like it would just come out, and I just felt like it was a proper waste if I didn't collect it. So I had to have a cup on the other side and then my child on one side, and then I had to alternate.

It got to a point where my child would find it hard to latch. I thought she had tongue-tie, and then that was an, an issue, and then my nipples became really sore, and I thought I had mastitis, and it was just- It was a, a real struggle. It was a real, real struggle. And I, it was, it was heartbreaking for me to stop, uh, breastfeeding, um, because ultimately I had that feeling of, I'll do anything for my child, and I love my child.

But then, and I know breast milk is the best thing that she could ever have. Like, it's the best. Like, I will die on that hill. Like, breast milk is the best thing for a child, but also fed is best. I, I also believe as well. So yeah, I, I, I... It was a real, it was really heartbreaking for me to stop because I think mentally it was just taking a toll on me, and it was one more thing that was taking space in my mind.

[00:22:13] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Do, do you remember the, the day when you decided to stop? Um, so how, how did that decision come about? Do you remember that day? 

[00:22:20] Aamta: I think it was when I, my, my , my, my nipple, my left nipple, it just wouldn't stop sh- it wouldn't stop tearing and bleeding, and it wouldn't heal. And I was still trying 'cause you had to alternate between boobs.

And she, she was on the, she was on the boob, and she was, she ki- she was trying to latch, but then my, my... It was r- it was really painful, and it started bleeding. And I was like, "You know what? I can't, I just can't do it. I can't do it. Like, it's not fair on her. It's not fair on me. It doesn't make me a less of a mother.

And you know what? I'm gonna be the bigger person and actually look after myself because if I don't look after myself and I, and I kind of be this, try to be this savior I'm just gonna end up resenting this whole process, and I'm just gonna stop. 

[00:23:11] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, I think, I can think everyone can understand those when you're in pain- Yeah

for that length of time. I mean, six months. You went for six months despite your lack of support- Yeah ... and despite still being in, still being damaged and in pain at six months. 

[00:23:23] Aamta: Yeah. 

[00:23:24] Emma Pickett: That's a long 

[00:23:24] Aamta: time. It wasn't just physical pain, it was mental pain as well. Like it was, it was not just one, it was t- it was, it was two going at the same time.

And like yeah, it was, it was really, really bad. Like, as soon as I ... I didn't take antidepressants when I was pregnant 'cause I was very fearful of what that would do to my child whilst I was pregnant. So as soon as I gave birth, I went straight onto antidepressants because I had postnatal depression as well.

Um, so it was quite, it was quite, yeah, it was, it was a rollercoaster. And, um, as soon as I stopped, I kind of went onto HiPP, and then that, that came with a, a completely set of different problems. My child would have, would s- like, uh, would, would, um, find it really difficult on powdered milk, and it was really hard to find a formula that would work for her.

She'd have like, um, she'd have gas all the time. She had, um, colic. Oh my God, it was, it was, it was horrible. It was just horrendous. 

[00:24:28] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay, let me pause you there for a second. I really appreciate your, your openness, but some of the things you've said just remind me of one of the poems that I'd like to share- Mm-hmm

in this episode. And this is, this is Hannah's poem. So, so Hannah, uh, it's a very short poem, but I think it really evokes some of that distress and pain when breastfeeding's not going well and when you're in physical and emotional pain. So let's just have a listen to, to Hannah's poem now. 

[00:24:54] Hannah: Tocophobia.

Traumatic birth regardless of everything you did. Only one more day.

Only one more day till our next appointment. Keep going. Only one more day till our next appointment. Preparation meant nothing. Hannah, it's, it's okay to stop. Only one more day till our next appointment. Bleeding nipples, blood blisters. I don't want to do this anymore All worth it and 

[00:25:38] Emma Pickett: Okay, now obviously that, that very short poem, you can hear her voice breaking just to remember some of that, that really difficult time.

And, and obviously in her case she did get to g- see a group, and she did get to have a resolution and, and you know, her story was a little bit different from yours, Aamta, 'cause she did get the support she needed in the end. But what I, what I like about that poem is the response of the crowd. So she's reading it in that YouTube video, and the clapping of other people, that, that power of the community of women around her saying, "We get it"- Yeah

we understand how difficult this was. 

[00:26:10] Aamta: And I think as well she hasn't have to, she doesn't have to say too many words for other people to understand what she's going through. Everyone- Yeah ... like univers- like understands that feeling of that heartbreak of like you, you don't want to stop but you have to stop, especially if it's in that type of situation, like for the sanity of- Yeah

everyone. 

[00:26:31] Emma Pickett: And then she also started with birth trauma and- Yeah ... and a traumatic birth and- Yeah ... and you know, fe- fear of birth, so all that at the beginning as well. Yeah. And, and I d- would encourage anyone to, to watch Hannah read that poem because obviously you can hear, you can hear her voice breaking in the audio.

But, but watching her read it and imagining her standing on a stage and, and sharing that is, is super powerful. Mm. And it's a nice little representation of, of what the project c- can mean, connecting with others and, and not feeling alone. Um, you mentioned, um, Aamta, that you did the, you did the podcast and then you did the portrait.

And Rena, you did the, you did a poem and you did a, um, a piece of writing as well, if I remember rightly. 

[00:27:12] Reena: Yeah. We, well, we did, um, we did a few ... It was creative writing. Um, poetry was sort of at the heart of it. But, um, creative writing, some form of poetry, and we did like the portraits as well to go alongside, which went around the birthing centers and, um, hospitals.

[00:27:27] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And it must be pretty tough to be in those sessions when there's all this raw emotion flying around. I mean, e- when you were doing the, those poetry workshops, I'm guessing there were people feeling some very, very deep feelings. There must have been some tricky moments. 

[00:27:41] Reena: Floods of tears, I think that's what it really was.

And it was just physically holding each other as well, um, which is quite poignant to call it The Holding Time. Um, but I think just listening to Hannah's poem, listening to yourself, Aamta, I think for what really, and reflecting back what really echoes is mothers are telling themselves it's okay. And you know, when you're in the trenches, again, I, I always say I was so lucky I had the support network, but mothers are having to tell themselves it's where are the, you know, where's the external help?

Where, where, where else are mothers turning to to know whether it is this is normal, whether it's not, or I need a bit of help? That, yes, there was COVID and a lot of things had stopped, but I couldn't, I couldn't tell you where we, where we could really go for the support. It was you go through the absolute trenches.

And we've had found this little project to just reflect back on it, but when women really need the support I, I feel like it- It's, it's really hard to, to get that. And- Yeah ... I think is it just being a woman in general, we're always a bit mindful of are we overreacting? Are we, you know, always putting ourselves second?

Are we, are we, you know, maybe this is just how it is, let's just keep going. It's just, I think for me, it always chokes me up just thinking, you know, they went through this and they had to tell themself that this is, this is okay. 

[00:29:02] Aamta: 100%. 

[00:29:04] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that strikes me when I, when I hear about the project is there's lots of people out there that would think, "Oh, this is a bit of a luxury, isn't it?"

You know, some arty project, getting some, you know, photographic artist to come and get a bunch of mums to sit in a room and write poetry and, and take, take photos. You know, wouldn't we all be so lucky to have money in our budget for that? But it's so essential. It's not- Yeah It's needed ... arty-farty poetry writing.

It's deep, emotionally traumatic work that actually is healing and cathartic and connecting people and, you know, really important for people's mental health, and even people who haven't had the mental health challenges that you've had, Anta, for anybody going through motherhood, there are gonna be challenges.

[00:29:44] Aamta: Challenges, yeah. 

[00:29:44] Emma Pickett: And it just really, you just want to grab everybody who, who holds funding in different councils and say, "Listen, this sort of project is not just airy-fairy poetry writing. It's helping people at the most vulnerable times in their lives." 

[00:29:56] Aamta: I think as, uh, as well something to note that when you're, when you have a ch- a young child, a lot of services that are available are always centered around the child.

Like a children's playgroup, a children's, you know, X, Y, and Z, but something... This was a participatory project with members and mothers of the community, and I've never seen a project that is centered around the mother rather than the child. 

[00:30:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:30:24] Aamta: And this ex- was exactly it. Um, and it was, it was an opportunity to kind of just sit and say, "Well done.

You're doing the best that you can. You know, let's just be friends and talk about this experience and just revalidate each other." It was just such a really nice- Yeah ... space. Like I, I did the podcast, so I didn't really get to- you know, sit physically with anyone. But having that relationship with Lisa and that conversation and listening to other podcasts, it was, it was really good.

And I had other friends, other, other colleagues or friends that I knew that did podcasts, and their stories were completely different as well, so yeah. Yeah. 

[00:31:11] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Let's have a listen to another poem. This is- I think one of the things that also strikes me is that women are telling stories that otherwise they would've been keeping to themselves.

Mm. They would've been internalizing them. They may have spoken about them to friends and family, but there's a celebratory aspect of it. And, and the poem I'd like to share now is, is Sonya's poem. So Sonya gave birth to her son, and he died in the womb around 28 and a half weeks. So she gave birth when he was stillborn.

She ended up donating milk for a year. Um, and she describes in her writing for the project that she visited the cemetery every day, and every day for a year she visited the cemetery, and during that period she was donating milk throughout that time. So let's have a listen to, to Sonya's poem now. 

[00:32:00] Sonia: My name's Sonya.

This is my poem, No Mouth to Feed. A breast full of milk and no mouth to feed. Surely out there someone else is in need. I set to work with pump in hand to share my milk across the land. My commitment is to collect each day. It seems that this is the only way to fill the void where you should lay. What more is there that I can say?

I hope one day my liquid gold will be someone else's story told. If only to recognize that you were here, these precious moments I hold so dear 

[00:32:42] Emma Pickett: Wow. It's pretty, pretty powerful stuff, isn't it? I mean, I, I, it's, I know it's difficult to imagine what it must be like to be in Sonya's shoes, but for her to share that and that

She was, she was standing outside reading that poem, and lots of people she was talking to probably didn't even know you could donate milk, um, once your baby had died. And, and modeling that and sharing that experience will have had that ripple effect, you know, throughout the community. And also, what a great opportunity for people to, to recognize what she's done and what she's achieved.

Um, I heard a couple of other episodes on, um, donating milk after loss and, um, you know, and, and I would encourage anyone to learn a little bit more about that and go to the Human Milk Foundation to learn a bit more about donation after loss. But yeah, an example of the variety of motherhood and, and all the different experiences that come under that umbrella.

Um, yeah, a tou- a tough listen, but it ... She's got such power in that video when she's reading that poem. It's kind of amazing. Let's have a listen to another poem while we're listen- in, in listening to poem mode. So this is Sophie. Sophie gave birth to her lovely daughter, Olive. Olive has Down syndrome, and one of the things that Sophie talks about is even before she gave birth to Olive, people told her she wouldn't be able to breastfeed.

There's so many myths and prejudices around breastfeeding, um, with Down syndrome, and you absolutely can breastfeed. And there are tons and tons and tons of people who make breastfeeding absolutely work and, and that, but that prejudice can be something people will have to really contend with. So, so let's have a listen to- Hello, everyone.

I'm Sophie ... Sophie's poem. 

[00:34:14] Lisa: And one, two, Matty. 

[00:34:15] Sophie: You're not even born yet, yet they tell me you won't. But your mum's a fighter. I won't give up hope I'll give you my all. My fight begins now. I'll give you my milk, it just depends how. Breast milk is magic. It's called liquid gold. The strength in me deepens, and it begins to take hold.

The doctors dismiss it. It's all graphs and charts. But you're not just a tick box, not a broken heart. You carry some magic, of that much we know. A lesson we'll teach them. It's our job to show. Breast milk is magic. It's called liquid gold. The strength in me deepens, and it begins to take hold. First days as a mum, your first days on Earth.

So many feelings, love so hard it hurts. We're practicing feeding. We've both got to learn. Whilst you snooze away, I toss and I turn. 24 hours, that's all that we need, and all of this hangs on whether you feed. Night nurse comes in, "It's time for your food." She orders at me that she's using your tube. I beg for more time, just one little hour.

If you've not fed by then, I'll surrender my power. So I strip you and change you and blow on your face. Come on, little lady, let's win this race. I log down the feed, the left and the right, then back off to sleep under your disco light. Alarm set for me. We can't let this slip. If we get through this night, we're off on a trip.

Home we can go. This week's felt so long. Home we can go where we all belong. Breast milk is magic. It's called liquid gold. The strength in me deepens. It begins to take hold.

[00:35:55] Emma Pickett: So one of the things she calls herself in that poem is a fighter, and you can absolutely hear the battle of that night in hospital and the battle of dealing against other people's prejudices. And women are pretty powerful, aren't they? That's-- It's one of the things that is really strikes me, um, with this project.

It really comes across very, very strongly. Um, and that's the case for both of you as well. Aamta, I can see you've got some feelings around listening to those poems. Are you okay? 

[00:36:20] Aamta: Yeah. Um, I think it was just the first one that really set me off. But I think, yeah, it just encap- Yeah ... encapsulates- That's what our whole 

[00:36:30] Reena: sessions 

[00:36:30] Aamta: were, just set each other off.

It just encapsulates what, um, the unselfishness of a mother like, um, the, the strength. She didn't have her baby in her arms, and she still kind of found a way to kind of, you know, give... You know, still give when she was in so much pain herself. And I think as, as a mother, like if you're going through the trenches mentally or physically, even through breastfeeding, it-- You have-- Sometimes mothers tell themselves it's okay, like Rima said, just, and just power through.

And I think as well it was, it was quite hard 'cause I experienced a loss in twenty twenty-four and it, yeah, it was just... Yeah, it was hard. And it, it kind of make-- It, it made me kind of think to that. 

[00:37:26] Emma Pickett: Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that, Aamta. I'm also so, I'm also so sorry that we've got network problems just as you're sharing something so important and so precious.

Yeah. We've, we unfortunately, we unfortunately lost some of that, so you sounded like a bit of a robot while you were saying something so emotional and so important. Um, I'm so sorry to hear about your, your loss. Yeah. 

[00:37:45] Aamta: It's okay. Thank you. 

[00:37:47] Emma Pickett: We lost her at such a bad moment. Okay. Okay. Poor old Anta. God, lots of emotions flying around there.

Um, hopefully she'll, she'll click back in again in a second. Um, so are you still breastfeeding your, your daughter now, Rowena? 

[00:38:01] Reena: She stopped in November. Um, but, uh, every now and then I'll just sort of check I am still actually making milk. Um, and I, again, it was, it's all alien, it's all new. Um, I just kind of thought it, it'd stop, um, because I don't need to.

But, um, yeah, again, she was the same. She just stopped when she was sort of ready. She had her own room. She didn't necessarily want milk. She was just comfortable in her own space. And again, it was, you know, they became daddy's best friend where on a night they want, she wants dad. So it kind of made life a little bit easier on me.

[00:38:37] Emma Pickett: That's quite handy for you in terms of getting a bit of extra sleep. Yeah. Um, yeah. So in terms of milk production, lots of people are surprised how long production can last for. 

[00:38:44] Reena: Yeah. 

[00:38:45] Emma Pickett: When you check, you're telling your body to keep making milk. So don't be tempted to check. Yeah. I don't. 

[00:38:50] Reena: That's it. I'm like, "Oh, oh, shall I?

Shall... No, I'm, I'm just, I'm just..." I think for me, I mean, my husband's ready. He knows. He goes, "It's, it's gonna be a big cry moment." But I'm just like, "Oh, I'll just, I'll just have a look." And he's like, "All right, that's up to you." But he is so ready and poised that when I turn around like I've stopped, he knows he's gonna have to hold me, and it's, it's gonna be a big, uh, a big one.

[00:39:11] Emma Pickett: Okay. That's interesting. So there's almost two weanings for you then. 

[00:39:14] Reena: Yeah. 

[00:39:15] Emma Pickett: The w- the weaning of your daughter, of ending breastfeeding, and now several months later, there's the weaning of not producing any milk anymore and production. That, that's really interesting. I've not heard anyone describe that before.

[00:39:25] Reena: With my son, it, I never really had that end point of the milk stopping. It's, it, this will be for both of them, it's stopped with the tandem in between. Okay. I've just, um, w- we laugh, but I've been making milk for about five years now. Um, and, um, it is, it's just having, it's, it's, it's- It's just been, I think for me that, that'll, that'll be final.

That will be, I mean, I've got a, I don't know if you can see, I've got an actual ring made out of my breast milk when I was, um, feeding them just to sort of almost say, you know, well done. Um, just that was a, a, such a big moment for me. The tandem feeding was the hardest, um, but I wanted to do what I could for them both.

[00:40:10] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Tandem feeding is the best thing and the worst thing. Yeah. The easiest thing and the hardest thing. Yeah. Yeah. Intense. Intense. Um, yeah. Thank, yeah, thank you for showing us your, your breast milk jewelry. It's one of the hazards of being an audio-only podcast- Mm-hmm ... is other people can't see it.

But, um, I think breast milk jewelry can have a lovely role. So one other thing I'd love to share is, um, an ex- extract from a podcast, um, with a mum called Aisha, who is a mum that became a mum through adoption, and she talks in this podcast clip about her milk kinship decision. So, so I- Aisha explains that she worked really hard to induce lactation and, and unfortunately didn't quite manage it in the way she wanted.

But let's, let's hear a clip where she explains what her solution was 

[00:41:00] Aisha: So this is the key bit actually for me when it comes to a- adoptive mothers and breastfeeding. So adoptive mothers may try to breastfeed their children to give them the same rights as a birth child, such as becoming a mahram, or unmarriageable kin, which is what we mentioned, to their adoptive family.

According to Islamic law, breastfeeding an infant three to five or more times when they are under two years old can achieve this. Scholars have set certain criteria for breastfeeding to be considered sufficient, including that the milk reaches the child's stomach and is enough for at least five nursing sessions.

[00:41:34] Lisa: Wow. 

[00:41:34] Aisha: So there you go. That was the context in which Islamically I was trying to do this, but from a personal perspective, it was very much about closeness to my child. 

[00:41:46] Lisa: Yeah, and that's what I can relate to. I mean, that's, that's certainly something that you want to do, is knit the fabric of your, your physicality, that bonding, the intimacy.

[00:41:59] Aisha: You know, skin to skin contact and all that stuff. So, you know, try, trying to, I say replicate, but that's not really the right word. 

[00:42:06] Lisa: Well, you're doing it. It's not replicating it, it's doing it, isn't it? 

[00:42:09] Aisha: Feeling like a mother in every sense. Yeah. 

[00:42:12] Lisa: Yeah. Yeah. And it's about quickly establishing that bond, I suppose, is a very...

So tell, tell me about how that, you know, how, how you initiated that process or how did that begin? 

[00:42:22] Aisha: So I did a little, little bit of reading around this. There's quite a lot around about it because actually it's not uncommon for trying to induce lactation, because some mothers do struggle, and so there's methods like expressing, there's certain teas and things you can drink.

Like, there's loads of herbal remedies. So that's what I did. I bought a load of herbal teas and was drinking them regularly, and bought myself a breast pump and was just pumping every day. 

[00:42:47] Lisa: Ah, okay. Just pumping every 

[00:42:48] Aisha: day. So- 

[00:42:48] Lisa: Yeah, yeah, yeah ... just basically- I, I mean kind of like what you'd call relactating if you'd given birth.

You know, like if your milk supply shuts down and you need to get it going again, you just relactate. But you can do that from a standing start. 

[00:43:03] Aisha: And exactly, apparently there's, so it's like fennel tea. Fennel tea is considered a, a real one of those. There's lots of other stuff. My sister had lent me some of hers as well.

Soon after my son moved in with us, my sister gave birth to her second son and was breastfeeding him. And so she had got hold of some teas as well to help her produce more milk. So between us, we had got this whole range of pharmacy. Um, and then, yeah, every day for a certain amount of time, I was sitting down with a breast pump, just literally just trying to produce milk.

For weeks and weeks I did it, but it didn't happen, so. So then we started having a discussion, just informally, uh, me and some of the ladies in, in the family, and it might have been someone else in the family who suggested it, although it, it had been in the back of my mind that my sister and me, like in terms of our DNA, biologically we're exactly the same.

And actually in terms of the closeness of that biological relationship, we could replicate it, and it is the right word this time, if he were to have her breast milk. And so that's what we did. So she essentially breastfed my child. So excess milk that she produced, she froze. Um, and then when we were visiting, we had a few days where he was having her, her breast milk at the time when he was regularly drinking milk.

And yeah. The, if the child has equivalent of five feedings, then, then you fulfill that kind of Islamic law element. And that, and I think he had more than that because he loved it actually . And it's really amazing, Lisa, that he really is very close to my sister 

[00:44:36] Reena: I'm, I'm part of the Sikh faith. Um, so f- when Aish was in our session and she bravely told us of her struggles, it was all really alien, all really new to me.

And I'm thinking people who might have been listening would also think, gosh, you know, this is something completely new. And I remember thinking, not only have we already got the strength, the s- the struggles and the worries of everything else, it all... I f- I, I kind of felt this, this pain in her because it was just like another layer of a, another hurdle she had to kind of get through.

And to adopt is so selfless and it just, it's just, I just, I could just see it in her that she had, she had so much love to give. And I f- and my, you know, my pain kind of came from in a sense of, it's another, it's another hoop you're going to have to jump through, and it was all new. And I remember just sitting back and thinking, gosh, I'd love to ask her some questions, but I, I need to understand myself what she's just told me in order to really process it.

So I could not even begin to imagine her journey. Um, just, just, you know, as soon as someone says they've adopted, you think, oh God, that's amazing. But then there were so many other layers to it where I, I was in awe of her and I thought, wow, that, that's a different kind of strength 

[00:45:56] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Well said.

Yeah. So, so you can hear Ayesha's podcast episode in full if you'd like to hear more about her experience. And I mentioned the Human Milk Foundation having resources around, um, donating after loss. They've also got resources around milk kinship as well and, and milk donation in the context of, of M- Muslim families.

'Cause obviously if you're a Muslim family and you're taking donor milk, it really matters whose that milk is because you are forming, you know, milk kinship connections with, with people you may not even know. So, so traceability and all these sorts of issues are, are super important. And one of the things I think that I'm gonna take away from this conversation, I think it was you, Aamta, that said so many resources are about the baby, the baby groups, the baby massage, and yeah, okay, so we're sort of doing it for moms as well, but actually we need resources that say, "This is a group for mothers.

Bring your babies, but we are gonna sit down and we're gonna talk, and we're going to have a kind of mother circle. We're gonna, you know, write poems", um, and the value of things that are very much focused on the mother's mental health. And it doesn't have to be a group just for people that have been diagnosed with postnatal depression.

It's a group for anybody. And so if anyone's listening to this and they are holding a little bit of money in a budget somewhere, whether it's in a local authority or in a trust, um, um, or somebody's a poet and they've got a bit of time, or someone's got a community center and they've got a space, don't think of art projects as being an additional added extra just for fun.

They really have a central value in the way that mothers process the experience of birth and the experience of breastfeeding and, and the ripple effect can be felt for years. Um, you know, the, and the Bradford project, you know, is, is a while ago now, but it's in, you know, the ripple effect's still there.

Those resources still online. We're still talking about it. Um, and yeah, what, what a, a lovely thing that, that Lisa led. Thank you very much, both of you. Is there anything that we haven't talked about that you want to make sure we include just before we finish? Reena, is there anything you'd like to add?

[00:47:56] Reena: Just speak, talk. We are women, we are strong, but we don't have to be alone. And I think that's always to everyone. I have vowed to always be open and honest and be as real as possible to m- to the mothers as well as the fathers, as well as, you know, anyone that wants to ask question, be it breastfeeding, motherhood, giving birth.

I will give the raw information and tell them how it was for me, so that you've got somewhere to almost turn to when you're in the trenches and you don't know who to turn to, at least you already know something. Like my husband's friends, um, all a bunch of lads, we were all, we all did a lot together and then after my son was born, we all did a lot of things together and they'd ask the questions about breastfeeding.

They'd, they'd sort of sit with me, you know, they'd talk about the birth, that I almost had this little community within my friendship group. But you've gotta talk, you've got to speak, and every journey is different, and no journey is the same, but that doesn't mean that it's the wrong journey or the right journey.

Just don't let it eat you up. 

[00:49:10] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Beautifully said. And we look, we look forward to hearing about your future project with Lisa. I hope that something comes of that 'cause I, I'm sure that's gonna be really exciting. Good luck with that So I've also got the lovely Lisa who we've been talking about all, all episode.

Um, Lisa, it's... Sorry you w- you weren't able to join us when we were talking to, to Reena and Aamta, but actually four voices on an audio podcast is probably a bit of a nightmare, so it's probably not a bad thing. Um, it's lovely to see you today. It's really clear having spoken to Aamta and Reena what an impact the project has and, and it's still the ripple effect now is still being felt today.

If someone was to say, "Oh, what did you do in Bradford?" How would you summarize what the project was? 

[00:49:50] Lisa: Blimey. Um, well, Bradford was a, a really long project in that I did probably two or three projects that were really part of one, starting with working with Kala Sangam Arts Centre and partnering with Rachel on some writing workshops.

I had an exhibition of some of the other work from other projects there first, and that was kind of like a seeding opportunity to invite along public health and the other, um, stakeholders and partners and, and also to start being introduced to some of the key players in Bradford. Then from there, Jane Dickens, uh, came to that and thought public health would be interested in putting in some seed funding.

That actually came from the Family Hubs network. So, um, I had that promise, but then there was a long time where that money didn't come and I was still developing the project probably another year. And in that time I got some money from Bradford City Council and we ra- we set up a Singing Mamas group and, uh, kept something going working with Woman Zone.

So it's really all about focusing on, on that real grassroots development, working very closely with a community partner at, uh, Woman Zone. I don't know if anyone has really mentioned Woman Zone. 

[00:51:09] Emma Pickett: So Woman Zone, I just think of a cheesy magazine when I think of Woman Zone. This is not what 

[00:51:14] Lisa: Woman Zone is at 

[00:51:14] Emma Pickett: all.

[00:51:15] Lisa: Yeah. Well, it's very far from that. Um, it's a, it's a really beautiful, um, women's center situated down the, the Leeds Road, and they have everything from older ladies chatting group to food bank. Um, they do some ESOL. They have a women's gym. They reach out to, to women who really are quite isolated, and it's very much about reducing social isolation.

So, so we ran a singing group there for mothers and, and that was in the interim. And then finally the money came through from public health. I was able to get an Arts Council grant, and then I started recruiting mothers Um, with Rachel New, who was running the writing workshops. We started recruiting mothers for the writing workshops.

It was such a big project because I also worked with Better Place on this large sculpture. So I had the designs of the sculpture to work on with Dan Jones, who was the artist I was collaborating with on that. Then all the mothers were interviewed in the initial stages, and then after the writing workshops we had even more mothers, and so I started interviewing them as well.

So the size of it was just... It was at least double what I had anticipated, and probably the length of it. I- I'd say I'm still finishing it, but officially the funding finished in, in, uh, April of last year. So the outcomes were the large sculpture, the live event that we did in Bowling Park with all the mothers reading their poetry, which we filmed.

Um, I've got lots of footage from that I haven't used yet. All the interviews. And then at Woman's Own I was doing photo shoots, photographing mothers, and making those into social media flags. And then we, of course, had all the writing and the poetry, um, which in itself is kind of material. So I still kind of struggle to get an overview of it.

[00:53:13] Emma Pickett: I was gonna say, to asking you for the summary, it's quite clear that- I know ... the summary isn't im- immense enough. Maybe I don't 

[00:53:18] Lisa: have a summary. 

[00:53:20] Emma Pickett: It was, it was huge, wasn't it? And, and you can just do- 

[00:53:22] Lisa: It's still going on. 

[00:53:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah. You can do a deep dive on, on YouTube and just get a flavor from it and look at all the podcasts.

Yeah. There's so much. 

[00:53:29] Lisa: It's been interesting to see how it's worked on YouTube, because we put the podcast up on YouTube. Uh, we launched that in, well, in theory with the live event, which was 2024, but it's in the last four months or five months it's really started ticking up on YouTube. And, uh, this month we've had something like 143,000- Wow.

Wow ... listens on, of the podcast. Yeah. Which I've never really achieved before. So I think it's really speaking to, to women, um, in ways that maybe, maybe they're not hearing these types of stories told in this kind of way. And it might be because I'm not an expert, so I just wade in and chat, you know, in a different way to, you know, to perhaps someone who's trained in infant feeding.

I'm not coming at this from a health perspective. I'm coming at it from the point of view of lived experience and, and, and creating, trying out these, these new medias, you know, um- So the sculpture actually takes you to the podcast and, and, you know, it's designed so all these different parts of it, the exhibition of the m- mothers' portraits in the hospitals and the family hubs take you to their webpages and the podcast.

So- 

[00:54:42] Sonia: Okay ... 

[00:54:42] Lisa: it's, it's all an experiment really to see if we can get messages about, um, breastfeeding out to the wider public. 

[00:54:50] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:54:50] Lisa: And that part of it seems to be working. 

[00:54:52] Emma Pickett: And I guess w- just to state the obvious, one thing that we've been talking about together with, uh, Reena and Aamta is it's the, obviously the experience of the mothers themselves writing the poems, f- processing, um, you know, eh, reflecting.

It's not just about the external message about breastfeeding, it's very much the therapeutic value of, of being part of the art themselves, and it's, it's clear what a huge, huge impact that's had on the individuals involved. 

[00:55:17] Lisa: Yeah, I mean, I'd say it's, it's even more than that. It's, it's absolutely not about the external message of breastfeeding 'cause in a way, that type of public health approach, which is more prescriptive, isn't the approach that a, a creative like me would take.

Um, I'm much more interested in the story of breastfeeding from the inside out, rather than from the outside in. Yeah. So it's really the truth is whatever women say it is, as opposed to there being kind of the research-based approach, which of course I appreciate and have loads of respect for, but that's not my, that's not my starting point.

It, it, it of course did help me in my journey, and it does help women in their journey to know the facts about breastfeeding, but it's ... that's, you know, their motivation to breastfeed is so multifactorial. There's so many pla- you know, there's so many things going on in these stories, and Bradford had a amazingly rich range of stories and range of experiences.

So it's probably the most, it's the biggest project to date, and it's, um, the most in-depth, and it's the most embedded, and the most ambitious, is probably how I'd put it. That is kind of a summary. 

[00:56:30] Emma Pickett: Thank you. Thank you very much. And if anyone wants to reach out to you, we'll put your information in the show notes.

Um, and what, what we were saying at the end of the recording bef- before you joined us is, uh, there are people out there with pots of money who need to know how important this work is, and, and doing work like this is not kind of an embellishment. It is the core of what helps people process their mothering and parenting experiences.

And, um, yeah, I, I l- I look forward to hearing what you're d- gonna be doing next. Thank you so much, Lisa. 

[00:56:57] Lisa: Thanks. Thanks. Thanks, Emma. It's, that's quite a lot coming from you. I, I really appreciate it.

[00:57:07] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at emmapickettibclc and on Twitter at makesmilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist, and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.