Dating and breastfeeding

Dating while breastfeeding isn’t often talked about, so this week I’m joined by Frankie (29, Sheffield) and Anna (40, Lancashire) to talk about their experiences. They share candid ‘dating profiles’, then explore their breastfeeding lives and family situations: Anna recently weaned their five-year-old after nursing aversion began when their two-year-old was born, and they co-parent their youngest after two past relationships; Frankie is sole parent to her two-year-old, who breastfeeds frequently at night, with no contact or financial support from his biological father. They compare meeting partners through apps versus friends and in-person, when to disclose breastfeeding, childcare and co-sleeping constraints, and boundaries around introducing partners to children. They discuss partners’ reactions to lactation during intimacy, cultural discomfort with bodily functions, and the challenge of being seen as both a mother and sexy, ending with advice on building support networks, self-confidence, and not rushing dating.

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, by going to https://bit.ly/JKPbooks and using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode.

Just a little warning to say that we might have some adult content in this episode. Not that we're going to go pornographic, but we are talking about the adult experience of, of dating while breastfeeding, and, and that might include conversations around sex and relationships. So if you have a two-year-old that sits by your side while you talk, while you listen to these episodes, you might want to listen to it o- on a different occasion.

So I'm really honored today to be joined by Frankie and Anna. Frankie is from Sheffield and has a two-year-old son, and Anna is from Lancashire and has a two-year-old son and a five-and-a-half-year-old daughter. And we're gonna be talking about their experiences of dating while breastfeeding. But before we get started, this is Anna's idea, not mine, they've created little dating profiles to introduce, um, you to them.

Um, Anna, do you want to go first? 

[00:01:37] Anna: Uh, yes. Hi, I'm Anna, a single mum of two, and I'm looking for love. I am a fabulous 40-year-old non-binary entity. I have a body like Marilyn Monroe crossed with an aging elephant's ball sack- ... and a mind like I'm ... Well, like I'm still waiting for an ADHD and autism assessment.

I recently stopped breastfeeding my five-year-old, and my two-year-old will definitely get more frequent access to my boobs than you. I will talk about breastfeeding at your mate's and at your mum. I am available for dates on weekdays at 11:00 AM- ... term time only. I fall asleep at 8:00 PM every night in a huge pink poofy princess bed with my children.

In the one hour each day where I can remember who I am outside of motherhood, I revert to being a left-wing, vegan, feminist, trans-uplifting, Linux-using Anglican. I work in IT. Thanks to perimenopause, I'm horny most of the time. However, I'm probably cleverer than you, and I don't need rescuing. If that's a problem, you need not apply.

Seriously. Please form an orderly queue in the comments section. Yours sincerely, Mummy. 

[00:02:57] Emma Pickett: Okay, that is pretty awesome, I have to say, Anna. I don't know how Frankie's gonna possibly compete with that. Okay, so lots of honesty, which also touched on some of the challenges of dating while looking after two little people and, and breastfeeding two little people.

Um, thank you very much for that. That was, that was empowering and, and impressive. Frankie, no pressure. Yeah. You, you dec- you decided to follow Anna's lead and have a go at doing your own profile. What, what's yours like? It's 

[00:03:22] Frankie: not, it's not quite, not quite up there. Uh, but I've gi- I've given it a go. Um, so mine is, "I'm Frankie, I'm 29.

I'm currently breastfeeding, occasionally dating, and always tired. S- somehow also balancing work life between feeds, snacks, and very little sleep. I come as a package deal with a tiny boss who has no respect for personal space and a strict no sleep policy. Constantly on the go with a toddler that never stays still.

Recently tried to take up running as a hobby, but still trying to figure out how to keep him in the pram for longer than half a mile. Looking for someone who can handle chaos, doesn't flinch when I whip a boob out mid-conversation, and knows that a good date involves a trip to the park with a coffee."

[00:03:57] Emma Pickett: Okay. I love it. Yeah, thank you. S- s- still tiredness, though, l- which is a, which is a theme, and, and finding time to actually be with somebody and actually get to know someone is also a theme. Yeah. And, and the whipping out of the boobs is also a theme. Okay, so before we start talking about your dating life, let's talk a little bit about your, your breastfeeding life.

So A- Anna, you might know I'm obsessed with endings of journeys. Um, you mentioned that you, you'd recently weaned your five-year-old. Tell us a little bit about how that went. 

[00:04:27] Anna: Um, so when my two-year-old, n- now two-year-old, was born, I had horrendous aversion. So we'd gone from her being a little booby monster to me having to put in a lot of boundaries very quickly, and we ended up in a routine where she didn't get to feed at night upstairs at all, 'cause that's when I had aversion, but she always got a feed when I went to pick her up from preschool.

The preschool have been wonderful every day. Even now with my little one there, I go in and I feed him for 15 minutes. So that was really the last feed, and when we got to the summer holidays and she was finishing up at preschool, I knew that it was kinda gonna be the end. And over the summer, we were still feeding, but only really at times of extreme dysregulation.

Probably the last really big feed was in Paris. Um, we'd traveled to Paris. I went backpacking with the kids. It was insane. It was really stupid, but we had fun. Um, and, uh, we'd got very dysregulated. I was extremely tired and sleep-deprived, and very grumpy and not parenting well, and we ended up having a sort of, "Do you want boobies?"

"Yes." "Well, fine then," kind of like feed. So now, um, she's slowly just stopped. Um, her big girl teeth have started coming in. She has two big girl teeth now. And we still occasionally, when my son is staying with his dad and I get a little bit engorged- Um, we still play can she catch the milk, and I just sort of squirt it towards her, and she kind of does a goal with her mouth and tries to So I guess that's still kind of feeding in a way.

But it has been a very long time since she's been able to really extract any milk from me. I won't let down for her and things like that. Okay. So it's just slowly ended. 

[00:06:13] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:06:13] Anna: Yeah. 

[00:06:13] Emma Pickett: And it doesn't sound like it was too traumatic for her. It sounds like that was a, a natural phase. Or did you go through a phase when you were struggling with aversion where you had to practice some parent-led weaning that was upsetting for her?

H- what was, what were the kind of d- darkest moments? 

[00:06:26] Anna: Um, darkest moments was, I mean, there was definitely some really hard times with the aversion. I don't know how dark that was for her. It was very difficult for me. But the, the difficult one was I made a real misjudgment right, uh, quite recently where I wanted to make some breastfeeding jewelry, and so I tried to hand express a bit of milk, and I managed to get, like, a teaspoon of milk out.

I'm still making milk, but my boobs just are very particular about when they will let it out. And I'd promised that I would give it to her, but because I made so little, I didn't, and I put it in the freezer, and she was extremely upset. So although the ending in the round wasn't particularly traumatic for her, she definitely has some big feelings underneath there, and I hadn't sort of expected them.

So I think, yeah, I could have been a lot more sensitive about it. She did forget about it eventually, but, um- 

[00:07:22] Emma Pickett: Okay ... yeah. Okay. Thank you very much for, for describing that to us. Quick question, obviously you're single now, 'cause we're gonna be talking about your dating experience. I don't know how to ask these questions without seeming like I'm being nosy, but obviously I'm, I'm gonna be nosy 'cause that's what we're here to talk about.

Have you been single for a long time? Did you ever co-parent with the pa- parent of your children? What's your kind of relationship history? 

[00:07:46] Anna: Um, so I, my eldest's dad, I was married to. We'd been together for a very long time, really all of my adult life. And when she was about one, that relationship ended very quickly, very unexpectedly, and really because of something that was just outside of everyone's control.

I, I think people don't realize that these weaknesses are there, you know? But it was something, it was, it was just to do with another person and something that happened in their life that just unraveled everything. We get on fairly well now, but he doesn't live nearby, and he is married to somebody else now.

[00:08:25] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:08:26] Anna: Then I was 38 when that relationship ended, and I really wanted another child. And I looked at going to, like, a sperm donor. I'd started the process of going to a clinic. Um, but then my dad got very sick, um, with pancreatic cancer, and he later died. But he said- I'm sorry ... um, "Why don't you go on these apps, you know?

See if you can meet someone new." And so I did, and we made the choice to try for a baby, given that I would've been doing that anyway, and I didn't want to wait. Unfortunately, that relationship didn't work. I ended that relationship, which was difficult, but, um, it, you can't pretend to be in a relationship when you're not.

It just doesn't work that way. Yeah. Um, and we co-parent the youngest together. It is difficult, I'll say. It's not the same as co-parenting after a 15-odd-year relationship. But we're managing, you know, s- sort of slowly but steadily. 

[00:09:26] Emma Pickett: Okay, okay. Yeah. Than- thanks very much for sharing that. Frankie, let me be nosy feet with you for a moment.

Tell us a little bit about your, your nursing and how your breastfeeding journey's going, and what's your relationship history. 

[00:09:37] Frankie: Um, so yeah, so Rudy's two. He is constantly, constantly on the boob at the minute, or that's how it feels anyway. We've cut down a bit in the daytime. Obviously, when he's at nursery, he's not, he can't be feeding.

Um, and if we're out and about in the day, he's, he's not that bothered. He'll sometimes ask and then immediately get distracted by himself and go and do something else. But we're very much still in the five, six, seven times a night kind of moment. 

[00:10:06] Emma Pickett: Oof. And you're, and you're working full time? 

[00:10:08] Frankie: Uh, so I work three days a week.

[00:10:09] Emma Pickett: Okay. I mean, yeah, I s- may say that like that's am- amazingly easier. But even working three days a week when you're not getting any sleep is pretty intense. 

[00:10:15] Frankie: Yeah, but, um, yeah, it, it, it's, it's not, it's not too bad. It's, it's been a lot worse. So I'm all right with that at the minute. Um, Rudy's biological dad's never had any, uh, contact with him.

We were never in a relationship in the first place, and we'd made the decision, I made the decision to continue with the pregnancy. He made the decision that he didn't want a child at that time, and he didn't want any involvement. Um, so we knew what, what the score was from the start. Um, so yeah, it's just me and Rudy.

[00:10:44] Emma Pickett: Okay. And we can edit this out if you think this is an outrageous question. Are you getting any, any financial support from him? 

[00:10:50] Frankie: Uh, no. No. None at, no involvement at all. I, I decided I'd rather absolutely nothing, so no, he's not on the birth certificate, no financial involvement. Um, I just thought it'd be, it'd be better in the long run than having someone that was kind of partially in his life, but not really in his life, but had to contribute financially but didn't want to emotionally be involved.

I just, we both agreed that it was just easier to do it fully. 

[00:11:17] Emma Pickett: Yeah. No, I can totally understand that. And, um, and I guess obviously you're g- gonna be thinking about what you're gonna say to Rudy in the future, and how you're gonna explain that to him, and it's- Not a bloody easy thing to say. Your dad, who the whole planet talks about 'cause the whole world talks about dads, um, didn't want to know you.

I don't know how you have that conversation 

[00:11:37] Frankie: Me neither. Me neither. So it is something I think about a lot, um, and not come up with anything so far. I'm hoping something comes into my head. 

[00:11:47] Emma Pickett: Yeah. There must be... Or obviously other people have gone through this. You're not the only pe- person, and there must be very, very clever people who have thought about how to do this, and thought about what kind of language to use.

Um, so maybe we can- Yeah ... connect you with some of those clever people- If anyone knows, yeah ... and they can help, help you come up with some language. And I think obviously being honest is, people are fallible, aren't they? Yeah. No one is perfect, and, and, you know, a, a man can be fallible and doesn't mean it's a rejection of Rudy.

It's his loss, not, not, um... Yeah, rough. Okay. Thank you for indulging me in that conversation. No worries. Okay, let's talk about dating then. So from the very beginning, you have been single, and obviously you've been intensely parenting and co-sleeping, so I'm guessing kinda dating hasn't been on your radar for a big chunk of time.

How old was Rudy when you thought, "Actually, hang on, I do want a partner. I do want to meet someone else"? 

[00:12:41] Frankie: Um, so I think in my head, I'd kind of just thought it's not something that's gonna happen until Rudy is quite a lot older because I don't have any free time or anything. But it ha- it, it has turned out that I have dated a few people, um, starting when Rudy was about six months.

Um, I met someone and we started dating. 

[00:13:08] Emma Pickett: Okay, how did you meet them? I'm rubbing my hands together. I need the gossip. How did you , how did you 

[00:13:12] Frankie: meet them? So this was a strange one because I met him just walking through town, um- 

[00:13:17] Emma Pickett: Oh, 

[00:13:17] Frankie: wow. Okay ... he was, um, doing like food deliveries, cycling through town, and I saw him a couple of times.

We kinda crossed and kinda looked at each other, and then one day, uh, when I was walking around town with, with Rudy, he was sat on a bench and I kinda walked past him, made eye contact and started chatting. And he said, "Do you wanna, do you wanna go for a coffee?" And I, and we did. And then we started, we started dating from there, and we dated for, for a, a few months.

[00:13:41] Emma Pickett: Okay. Wow. And in, in a minute I'm gonna ask a question about when you talk about breastfeeding, but I'll leave that question for now. Uh, uh, Anna, so you obviously were dating when you had your daughter because- Yeah ... that's how, how you have your son. And you, and you said you went on the apps. So- I did ... tell us about how you create a profile when you are natural term breastfeeding, and at what point do you make the decision to tell somebody that you are still breastfeeding?

I'm using the word still breastfeeding, which is a phrase I never use, but you know what I mean. 

[00:14:11] Anna: So the apps are, are difficult. Like, I'm currently not doing the apps because the thing is that, that you get this kind of structure of information to put in, but it doesn't really tell them anything about you Um, so I would be quite pushy about it.

I, I would push the fact that I'm vegan, that I'm quite political, um, that I'm breastfeeding. You know, I would put these things pretty front and center because I feel like these are things which could cause someone to reject me, and that's their problem, and I don't want to get to know someone as a waste of my time, if you see what I mean.

My time is precious. 

[00:14:51] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:14:52] Anna: Um, so on the time I've been on the apps, I went briefly on the, on an app again last summer, and I, I put it in my profile basically. Um, and I was a bit worried I might get some creeps and weirdos, but I didn't really. I mean, not that I know of. Uh, to be honest, I think they just ignore it.

I think, I, I think maybe it just confirms that I have boobs, and that's- ... that's like... I don't know. Um, yeah, I would be quite, um... So only one time on the apps did I have a really creepy, awful experience, and that was not related to breastfeeding. That particular horrible under-rock-dwelling pervert was interested in birth specifically.

Um- Ooh, okay ... so that was pretty nasty. Um- Oh, 

[00:15:42] Emma Pickett: I'm so sorry, Anna. That sounds grim. Um, but luckily you didn't meet them, I'm guessing. But that doesn't mean it wasn't- No ... traumatic. 

[00:15:48] Anna: Well, it was also, I will give a shout-out to one of the apps, which was Bumble, in that I got out of there pretty quickly, and I did feel quite safe in that conversation.

Like, I could very firmly block the person. They never came near me again, and I, I think that app had quite good safety features in general. Okay. 

[00:16:11] Emma Pickett: Is that, is that the one where women make the first contact, if I'm remembering- 

[00:16:14] Anna: Yeah ... correctly, right? And that was, that was the app where I met, um, my son's dad.

Um- Okay ... so yeah. It was okay. A lot of people would just disappear. That was one of the things I found as well. Like, you would have conversation and then they would just disappear off the app one day. Um, so I guess that their wife found out or something. 

[00:16:34] Emma Pickett: Okay. That's one way of looking at it. Yeah. 

[00:16:36] Anna: Yeah.

Okay. And I'm not on the apps anymore, so I've made the decision that, that, that, like, walking through town is a much better way of meeting people. 

[00:16:43] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, we saw from your profile at the beginning that you're obviously an upfront person. Yeah. You're not somebody who messes around, and I hear what you're saying about wasting time.

Yeah. You haven't got 10 hours to message somebody who can't be arsed to meet up. I mean, what's the point of that? You would... You know, you really don't have time to spare. Your free time is so precious, so I'm guessing that makes you laser-focused. Um- Yeah ... what kind of person are you looking for? What do you want from a partner?

[00:17:08] Anna: Well, this was a question that I had really that I thought was interesting is am I, or are you, um, looking for another parent in your partner? Because I'm not. I- Very much don't want a stepdad for my children. There's already two dads involved. It's enough. I have this work that I call dad-min, which is-

like extremely arduous. Um, and I don't want to live with someone again. I might consider marriage, but in a very unconventional way. I don't want to share finances, um, all of that stuff. Um, I, you know, I'm gonna go for the Helena Bonham Carter, Tim Burton model of you can live in a separate wing of the house.

Not that I have a separate wing, but, you know- 

[00:17:53] Emma Pickett: They had h- they had houses that adjoin. I happen to know in Hampstead they had, I think there was a tunnel or a door that inter- interlocks between- Absolutely ... 

[00:18:00] Anna: their two houses. We can, we can have the, the sex tunnel, which, in, in which- ... people can pass through, and then otherwise, not interested.

Um, and I, I also don't have time for messaging and stuff. So, um, however, I did find with the last relationship I had, that there's still a lot to be in a relationship. You know, there's still a lot of scope for a relationship outside of those things. But I, how many people would accept that as being the totality of the relationship, I don't know.

[00:18:30] Emma Pickett: Okay. I'll ask you a bit more about that in a minute, but let me come, come to Frankie. So when you're, so you, when you're doing relationships and you're meeting people, so you've obviously had more than one. Lovely bloke on bench, but apart from bloke on bench, you've had a couple of others since then. Are you meeting them through the apps?

Where do you, where do you tend to meet people? No. 

[00:18:48] Frankie: So the other, so I have, I have a boyfriend now, um, and we met through, like, being friend of a friend. 

[00:18:56] Emma Pickett: Okay. Gosh, you're so old school- ... Frankie. It's like, it's like the 20th century. Friend of a friend? Who are you? 

[00:19:01] Frankie: What, what- That was, that was- ... Chloe? ... the other guy I dated was also a, a friend of a friend as well.

But I think- Okay ... other than that or the apps, when else are you gonna meet someone as a single parent with a young child? 'Cause realistically, they're not gonna be in the baby groups. 

[00:19:18] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I suppose there is occasionally, just like you're a single mum in a baby group, you might meet a single dad in a baby group- Yeah

but that, that's not necessarily gonna be straightforward. No. Um, so you have had a- profiles on apps before, and do you talk about y- your parenting and your breastfeeding- 

[00:19:34] Frankie: Yeah, 

[00:19:34] Emma Pickett: well- ... in your 

[00:19:35] Frankie: profiles? ... so I tried, I think I had one that was specifically a single parents dating app, where obviously I said about, about having Rudy.

I can't think if I ... I must have put it on my other one, that I had a, a full-time child. Um, but I think not long after going on the dating apps, I realized that I don't have time for actual dating, and I also don't have childcare for actual dating. 

[00:20:05] Emma Pickett: Okay. I was actually gonna say, so your situation, because you're not co-parenting- Yeah

you are very much sole parenting. You're not gonna get, obviously, and actually, Anna's not ever completely without child, 'cause she's obviously only got one that is gonna be visiting a, a dad You've always got a kid with you. Always, always, always, unless you've got a babysitter or not, you know, or a family member so that, you know, you haven't got, ooh, where people say, "Oh, you got the, we have, we've free weekends."

Yeah You can, you can, you know, have a sex party on your free- ... weekends. Not, not really an option for you. No. So, so your current boyfriend, presumably they already knew about Rudy when, when you met them. What's, um, how do you have that conversation around breastfeeding? When, when's that a- arisen? 

[00:20:46] Frankie: So with, with the, with the m- the man on the bench, I, when we went for coffee, 'cause Rudy was only six months at the time, he needed feeding and I didn't even, it didn't even cross my mind that this was a thing.

I just popped my boob out and started feeding him. And, um, man on the bench looked very surprised and he was like, "Oh, sorry, I just, I just wasn't really expecting it." And bearing in mind he has two, two older children, but I think they were both bottle-fed, so he was just a bit taken aback. With my, with my current boyfriend, he was quite used to it because the friend that we met through, she always has boobs out as well.

She's constantly feeding her little boy. 

[00:21:25] Emma Pickett: Handy. So she was the filter- Yeah ... basically. She's already, she's already filtered him out. That's excellent news. So you're feeding in front of him. That's not a problem. Yeah. But presumably you can't have night dates. 

[00:21:38] Frankie: We went on our first evening date this month. 

[00:21:41] Emma Pickett: Oh, did you?

H- okay. Yeah, how 

[00:21:42] Frankie: was that? Uh, so we started dating in July last year. We had our first date with just the two of us March this year. So that was, that was strange not to have, not to have Rudy with us. Um, but it was nice. But we just- Yeah ... have kind of fit in time as and when, because Rudy does sleep occasionally.

[00:22:04] Emma Pickett: Occasionally. The o- the odd hour here and there. Actually, you know that, and that's like couples that are together. Yeah. I mean, you know, when are they flipping having dates? When are they having sex? Yeah. I mean, they are co-sleeping. They are not sleeping in the same room. You know, they are having sex on, on sofas at 2 o'clock in the afternoon- Yeah

and, you know, during nap time. That's actually couple life when you've got a little person. Yeah. Um, when, when Anna was saying that they didn't want somebody who was gonna be a co-parent, I saw you kind of nodding. Is that the, what you're thinking as well? 

[00:22:32] Frankie: No, I c- I can get that, and I think when there is already, when your kids do have dad's involvement, I completely get that, and I think that would be, that would be lovely.

Um, but I think with me, because there is no, no involvement from, from Rudy's dad, I think there is that, that kind of space that he doesn't necessarily need, but there is a space that, that can be filled. Um, and my boyfriend now does, does do a fantastic job. He really does manage to, like, kind of step the line of, of doing as much as he can to co-parent while also being like, "This is your-" This is your child, what do you want me to do?

How much do you want me to be involved? Like, that kind of thing 

[00:23:14] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So, no, fair enough. I mean, you, you've never had a partner, partner, partner in the sense of someone with you, with Rudy, as a family with Rudy. So, so having that in your future sounds like a, uh, something you're absolutely entitled to have as a goal.

Um, uh, I mean, Anna, we know you as an unconventional person already, so w- we're not gonna remotely gonna judge your, um, you know, Tim Burton, Helena Bonham Carter goals. And, and not wanting to share finances with a future partner. You get to define whatever you want your relationships to be. Tell us about the last time you had a relationship, Anna.

How, how did that go, and how did breastfeeding kind of come into that conversation? 

[00:23:48] Anna: Um, that person was someone that I'd known for quite a long time. Uh, he was much older than me. We were good friends. This is not... I have friends who are much older than me, you know, and friends who are younger than me. So, um, it wasn't particularly surprising to me.

Um, we ca- we fell in love really. It was very intense, very romantic. Um, had a lot of promise as a relationship, and what was interesting as well is actually he had quite a lot of experience of breastfeeding. He had grownup children, uh, most of whom had been breastfed, and one of his grownup children has breastfed all of their children.

So, um, and actually, my son's dad, his sister breastfed her children as well. So, um- 

[00:24:37] Emma Pickett: It doesn't sound, from what you're saying, that it w- that was an issue, because it sounds like it's very much part of, of his culture and his kind of experience and background. Yeah, not 

[00:24:44] Anna: at all 

[00:24:45] Emma Pickett: Just wonder whether, whether it, it had brought any awkward moments.

[00:24:48] Anna: Um, yeah. I mean, I, I, this is fairly personal detail, but I have found both partners that I'd slept with to be quite icky. They don't like the idea of boobs also making milk. Okay It's like there needs to be some division, and I remind them this is what they're for, you know, and I try and ground them in that reality.

Like, you know, but, um, so that would easily freak them out. 

[00:25:16] Emma Pickett: So they were, they were wanting you to sort of wear bras and breast pads, were they? 

[00:25:20] Anna: No, no To that extent It would be more just, like, um, I'm trying to think of the context with too much detail. I, to my knowledge, my boobs have never accidentally released some milk during, like sex.

That, I don't believe that that's happened. Um, however, it's something that I would worry about a little bit because I knew that they struggled with that. Um, and I think at one point one of them asked, "Oh, is this okay? Like, if I do this, are you gonna like start making milk everywhere?" And I'm like, "No, this is how you make milk."

And like I squeezed them in a hand expression and a little bit of milk came out, and they were like, "Oh my God, no, no, no, no, no, no." 

[00:26:00] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:26:00] Anna: Um- 

[00:26:01] Emma Pickett: Gosh, men are interesting, aren't they? They are. Oh. They go into, they seem to go into two camps. There seems to be ... I'm not ... You know, I've been doing this l- lactation consultant game for, for 20 odd years, and I, over the years, have had the occasional message from somebody who has a hobby in this area, and I'm not talking about a parent.

Yeah. There are some b- some blokes who are really, really, really into it. I mean, full on- Yeah ... you know, this is their passion, badge-wearing, um, lactivist kinkies. Yeah. Um, and then there, there, and there are some guys who are absolutely the ick, and then there is a bunch in the middle who are kind of like, "I love you, and you're kinda sexy, and this is part of you, and I'm okay with that."

Um, and it sounds like you met the guys at the ick end of the spectrum. Um, 

[00:26:41] Anna: well, it's interesting though, because I think just generally, like, both of them, bodily fluids, functions of a female's body, they, they're very confused about and, uh, just very ... I, it's not, I don't really under- understand this. I mean, I'm dealing with this in a separate situation at the moment with, um, an elderly family member who's dying, and everyone is so

They're really struggling with bodily functions. And I'm just like, "It's, it's just a bit of poo. Get over it." You know, I think it comes in that category more than ... I don't think it's specifically that it's breast milk. I think they're also similar about periods and- 

[00:27:19] Emma Pickett: Okay ... 

[00:27:20] Anna: farts and whatever, you know. I think it's like that r- rather than

Um, there may be something about blurring that line between Madonna and the opposite, shall we say. You know what I, you know what I mean? Yeah, for sure. I'm trying to not use that particular word in this context. 

[00:27:36] Emma Pickett: Don't ... We've used lots of words. Don't worry. I think this is- Oh ... the episode where we're gonna get our little, uh, uh, you know-

warning for being a bit more explicit, and that's okay. But only, only, obviously only if you're comfortable using those words. 

[00:27:45] Anna: Well, I did want to say, like, I, while in the context of sex, I think that they would probably like to forget that my boobs also do this other thing. Um, I do think that being a breastfeeding mum has impacted the kinds of men who are attracted to me and the way in which they s- they view me, which I find a bit tricky.

Um, so I think that largely the actual act of breastfeeding has been ignored, but it does put this big wholesome- glow around me of like lovely mummy who nurses and nurtures these adorable angels, which is not a- at all the reality. Okay. 

[00:28:30] Emma Pickett: So you mentioned in your profile the word horny. Yeah. Yeah Um, which is obviously not, you know, Madonnas aren't horny.

Um- Yeah ... glo- glowing halo-wearing mothers aren't, aren't horny. Yeah And actually one thing our society really does struggle with is the idea of being sexy and breastfeeding. Yeah I actually ver- in my very early days of being a la- a lactation consultant, did a bit of research on this and gave a talk at one of the conferences for the Association of Breastfeeding Mothers about sexiness and breastfeeding, and I think that's one of the reasons that actually our society does have very short duration of breastfeeding journeys on average, and very low breastfeeding rates.

Because we struggle with the idea that you can be sexy and breastfeeding, which is ironic- Yeah ... because the breasts that our society tend to prize, the kind of classic very large, round breasts, are often lactating shapes, and lactating breasts often look like that. And an, an engorged breast is often the sort of pornographic breast.

But the minute a bit of li- milk comes out of it, eek, you know, it's, gets crossed- Yeah ... into another barrier, and we're all freaking out and having a hard time about it. And, and, and we, I think online you'll see lots of discussion around, oh, if you're breastfeeding your libido is going to be very low, and that's gonna be a huge struggle for you.

And yes, for sure, a big chunk of breastfeeding people have low libidos, but there's also a group of breastfeeding folks who have high libidos and are meant to f- feel a little bit weird about that because we're not really allowed to wear more than one hat at a time. When you're in the mother box, you're kinda stuck in that box, and you're like not really allowed to be a sexy breastfeeding person.

It's, it's, d- well, society doesn't really know what to do with you, Anna, is what I'm saying. Um- Yeah. 

[00:30:03] Anna: Well, that's, that's just a general rule. You could put that on my headstone, Emma. Um, yeah, I would say that that's kind of what they've struggled with a little bit, and that that dynamic has been very apparent in all of the relationships that I've had.

I don't really know what to do about that really, because until I stop breastfeeding, that's just, I mean, it's kind of outside of my control really, isn't it? So. 

[00:30:26] Emma Pickett: But I would say it's just about looking for the right people, 'cause the right people are out there. I mean, there are, you know, breastfeeding mums and breastfeeding parents m- you know, married and r- in relations with, with the right people out there right now.

So those people do exist. The people that don't have the ick, the people that can see you as both a mother and a breastfeeding parent and sexy all at the same time, they exist. Yeah I mean, so you just gotta m- look for them. And in, and in the weeds it's really hard to find them because you're gonna come across the, the lactivist keenies as well.

So it's, um, it's, it's not a super easy journey. It's a, it's the search that's hard. Um, but there is gonna be somebody out there, as she says in a really naff way. They- You will, you will find them eventually. 

[00:31:08] Anna: Well, I've got my cat here with me, and as we know, he is my future husband. 

[00:31:12] Emma Pickett: Okay. So, so. Excellent.

[00:31:13] Anna: Yeah. 

[00:31:13] Emma Pickett: Yep. And only needs a very small tunnel if, in between the two houses- Absolutely ... because he's, he's only a 

[00:31:18] Anna: cat Sort of a cat flap will do.

[00:31:22] Emma Pickett: I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got The Story of Jesse's Milkies, which is a picture book from two to six-year-olds that really tells the story of little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways. Maybe there'll be a new baby sister, maybe his mom will need to practice parent-led weaning, maybe he'll have a self-weaning ending.

It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we're there to support them through all of them, and also, we sometimes have needs too. Also, on endings, we have Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child.

There are also chapters on different individual situations, like weaning an older child when there's still a baby feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation. Then we have Supporting Breastfeeding Past the First Six Months and Beyond, that's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond.

What are the common challenges, and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey. Then we have The Breast Book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14-year-olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is.

I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives. So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley Press website. That's uk.jkp.com.

Use the code MMPE10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books, and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful. It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you.

Frankie, I don't feel that you've got to talk about leaking during sex- ... or anything that feels uncomfortable. But h- how have you kind of navigated that, that world where you're not allowed to be a mother and sexy at the same time? Is that something you've struggled with, or has it been okay? 

[00:33:39] Frankie: I don't think it's really something that I've particularly struggled with.

With the, the first guy that I was dating, it was very much like they're doing something that I don't have any involvement in, so keep them, keep them away. So it was very much keeping a bra on at all times. But also I was only six months in I 

[00:34:00] Emma Pickett: guess six months, there's a lot more leaking going 

[00:34:02] Frankie: on- Yeah ... and a 

[00:34:02] Emma Pickett: lot more volume happening, yeah.

[00:34:04] Frankie: So that's fair enough. But, but now it's pretty funny, if I'm honest. When you're having a, having a bit of fun, and all of a sudden you both just get sprayed by a bit of milk It's just y- you will ... Like, like you were saying, you can find people that, that don't have a problem with it, aren't weirdly obsessively into it on the other side, but can just, like, it's what happens, isn't it?

[00:34:27] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I'm actually kind of impressed it doesn't happen more to Anna, because actually oxy- oxytocin is the hormone of both orgasm and arousal, and let- let down and milk ejection reflex. Yeah. Yeah. So it, it is, it's, it is very common to get leaking during sex. Oh, 

[00:34:43] Anna: that's interesting. I didn't know that. I mean, like I say, my boobs, they don't like giving out milk.

Mm-hmm. They, they don't like giving it to the older child, they don't like hand expressing, they refuse to ex- like, give milk for breast pumps. They are obstinate things. 

[00:34:57] Emma Pickett: So, so your let down is precious. Yeah. It's not gonna waste it on some flipping bloke who doesn't appreciate it. Um, yeah. Yeah. So, so it sounds as though you've got little im- you're, the, you're the endings of your milk ducts, those little sphincter muscles, don't mess around, Anna.

It sounds like they're- Yeah ... they're pretty, they're pretty intense. But, but I think for, for most people listening, leaking during sex is absolutely bog standard, normal, boring. Um, it is, it is what we would normally expect to happen. Um, and it's just about, I think if, if we're freaked out, that's gonna freak them out.

So I think it's, I guess when you're meeting someone for the first time and, and they don't understand how lactation works, you might need to have a conversation with them about how things work and, and what might be happening. But once you've had that open conversation, it's just a case of being relaxed about it.

It's just, it's just another, another fluid, isn't it? And, um, and, you know, we're talking about the kind of lactivist weirdies who are kind of really into the idea of milk, but just for a moment, our society kind of is, seems to be okay with foot people. Yeah. You know, we have OnlyFans and foot accounts, and, you know, you know, being obsessed with feet is kind of a bit jokey and a bit funny.

You know, as I said, I'm not about to be, uh, sending these guys postcards, but, you know, if someone's obsessed with, with milk and milk production, I c- I o- I almost kinda get it because actually it is pretty frigging cool. Yeah. Um, you know, women are pretty amazing. Lactating parents are pretty amazing. When, you know, w- milk coming out of a boob, and if you love a boob, I can kinda see how someone gets there.

Um, as long as we're staying well clear of anything that's obviously non-adult and, and, you know, the, the, the baby stuff and people pretending to be babies. I think we can mostly agree that that's, that's not as comfortable when you're dealing with real children. But I can sort of get how someone thinks, I think you're sexy, and breastfeeding is part of your superpower.

And, you know, I get the advantage of great boobs, um, works for me. I can sort of see how someone gets there. And it, and being icked by that is almost a rejection of you as a whole person, isn't it? It's almost saying that you're icky, and this special thing that you do is icky, and that's, that can't feel comfortable in those moments.

It- 

[00:37:03] Anna: It's extremely irritating. Um, actually I, I, I find this, uh, it just generally frustrating in people, but- I think that there's a lot of children who are brought up by parents who are very against bodily functions in general, and I guess that these people will grow into adults who are kind of freaked out by all this stuff.

I, I think it's all part of the great desire to forget that we are mammals. Um Yeah ... you know, let's just pretend that we're not mammals. But unfortunately, or fortunately, since my daughter was born, I have been very reminded of being a mammal. Um, it's actually why I ended up realizing that I'm non-binary, because it was really my first experience of having any sense of gender, was feeling like this female lion who would rip anyone's face off if they came too near her cubs and just wanted- Mm-hmm

to lie about breastfeeding all day, you know? Um, so, uh, yeah, I, I don't quite know what to do with these people, but I hope, like, like you say, hopefully I'll find somebody with a moderately normal reaction to boobs. 

[00:38:09] Frankie: Yeah. I just have something on, um, what Anna was saying there about, um, like, when people aren't brought up around it and it's, like, this weird, this weird thing.

This is one of the issues I did have, um, with the first guy that I was dating. I wouldn't say issue as, as such, but he had two children, um, that were about 6 and 12, and the six-year-old was really against me breastfeeding. 

[00:38:33] Emma Pickett: Oh, whoa. Okay. What, in, in their presence- 

[00:38:35] Frankie: Yeah ... they would 

[00:38:36] Emma Pickett: just kind 

[00:38:36] Frankie: of stop that kind of stuff?

That was repulsive. Would just be like- Yikes, where does that come from? ... "That's disgusting." Okay. Um, she would say that my babies smelt bad, which I guess they do have that kind of off milk smell to them out, don't they? It's great. Smells like biscuits. It smells lovely, but I guess that's must've been what she was talking about.

But she would say he smelt disgusting, um, that she didn't like it when I did it, that it was horrible, and all of this. And I was like, "That's not a problem. You, like, you d- you don't have to watch." Gosh. "You can go and play over there. You can go and play in a different room," like. 

[00:39:08] Emma Pickett: And you're quite a new mum at 

[00:39:09] Frankie: this point- Yeah

[00:39:10] Emma Pickett: frankly. I mean, I mean, Rudy's only, you know, just past six months, so that must've been really tough for you in that moment. 

[00:39:16] Frankie: Yeah, it was just a bit like you don't really know how to deal with it, especially because you've just started, just started dating someone. You don't wanna be... Like, I kind of needed him to step in then and- Did he step in?

Not so much, no. Because I think also he was a bit uncomfortable with it. Okay. I think he didn't really know, know what to do. So the whole situation was just a bit... And I think that's part, like, I think we've just had very different parenting styles, and I think that was part of the reason that we didn't sort of carry on dating.

[00:39:47] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Have you had any, any partners say, "Okay, great, fine, I get you're breastfeeding, but when's this wrapping up?" 'Cause, uh, I'm assuming this is only gonna happen for a few more weeks or months. Have you had anyone asking those kind of questions? 

[00:40:00] Frankie: No. My boyfriend now has said before, like- Some mentions of, "Well, you're not still gonna be doing this when he's in school, are you?"

kind of thing. He's very supportive of the breastfeeding and everything. And also, I've, I've had friends that, that say, "Oh, are you still gonna be doing it when he's in school?" And to be honest, I don't think I will be, but that's kind of a decision that I will make with Rudy- Yeah ... when it gets to that point.

[00:40:25] Emma Pickett: Okay. And it's not kind of like, "Come on, we need to spend the nights together. You shouldn't be co-sleeping." 

[00:40:29] Frankie: Oh, no. 

[00:40:30] Emma Pickett: What about pressure around co-sleeping? 

[00:40:31] Frankie: I get a few hours. So what we do at the minute is I'll put Rudy to bed, and then we'll have usually, like, a few hours on the sofa, and then Rudy'll wake up.

I'll go get him back to sleep, and then I'll get in, in bed with my partner for a couple of hours. And then when Rudy wakes up again, I'll just go and get in bed with h- him and spend the rest of the night in bed with him. 

[00:40:49] Emma Pickett: Okay. Yeah, partial co-sleeping is a bit of a savior in this situation. Yeah. So I guess because of your sole parenting, people you've dated have met Rudy relatively quickly, and that's just been part of the natural state of affairs 'cause you haven't really had any other options.

Yeah. And, and he's been too little, really, to understand that they are... You know, it's not like he's seven- Yeah ... and you're introducing him to every single bloke you ever go on a date with. Um, I mean, f- fingers crossed that your current relationship works out, but if that wasn't the case and you were back on the market again, what kind of boundaries do you think you would put in place as Rudy gets older?

Do you have a sense of how you'd want to handle things? 

[00:41:25] Frankie: Yeah. I think as he gets older, I think possibly it might be a bit easier as he gets older because he's, at the minute, does not like being with anyone that isn't me, in particular. Um, he can, he'll be with my mum for a few hours, but also that's when she's free and things.

But I think as he gets older, obviously he'll, he'll be happier doing other things and going to places, maybe spending the day with, like, m- his friends and my friends. So I think it would, if this relationship didn't work out now, I don't know exactly what my boundaries would be, but it would be a lot longer before I would introduce someone to Rudy because at this point he does, he does know enough and can get attached to people, and does, like, ask- Yeah

for people when they're not there. Whereas in the past it's kind of been out of sight, out of mind, doesn't even remember they exist. 

[00:42:17] Emma Pickett: Yeah Yeah, I mean, I guess that's, that's the main protection, isn't it? It's Rudy's emotions and meeting people that then he loses will be, will be tough, as well as obviously keeping him safe from dodgy adults.

But that feels like more of a remote risk. Um, you know, we can't assume the whole world out there is, is gonna be harmful towards children or, or, you know, everyone's a, a scary pedophile. Although obviously that's something you've gotta think about. I mean, I guess the friends of friends thing protects you a little bit from that.

Yeah. If you're, if you're on an app, you know, the, the dodgy people are going to be filtering the apps to look for the people with the two-year-old sons. I mean, that, that sounds horribly grim, but that is a reality. So I guess I can see why both of you don't end up on apps because you've got that extra layer of protection of meeting people in real life.

Yes. Anna, if, uh, what's your kind of thinking about when people meet your kids? Have you got thoughts around that at the moment? Do you have rules around that? 

[00:43:04] Anna: I was just thinking about that. I mean, it's... So what I didn't mention is that I did have another relationship between these two where we didn't meet in person because it was a distance thing, and it really sh- shook me, that relationship, because we'd actually been quite intensely, like, texting, and it felt great for, like, really a couple of months, and then one day he called me really, really upset because his hero, Charlie Kirk, had been assassinated.

Oh. And I was like, "Oh, what? Um, this is not happening." Um, I think that because I'm not looking for a stepdad for my kids, I am trying to use it as a way of talking to my daughter about the reality of dating. I'm quite, um... I'm trying to think of the words for this. My, before my first relationship with her dad, you know, first serious proper relationship, um, I, my understanding of how romance worked was Disney movies, and I would say that my kind of autism kind of special hobby was trying to find a boyfriend.

Okay. So it, it wasn't massively healthy, and I'm quite proud of who I am now. Like, the way that the last relationship ended, I'm quite proud of my capacity to say, "No, I'm not gonna fix you. No, that behavior's not acceptable. Yes, I am gonna steal every single toilet roll in your house as punishment for your behavior."

Um, so I'm trying to teach her that not everyone is for everyone, and you don't have to put up with this stuff just because you love someone. You know? Like, it's not that simple. Um- Yeah ... and that's good. And probably, though things will be a little bit more complicated- With my son because he similarly to Frankie, Frankie's son is just getting to the age of being able to understand this stuff, but not to the point of being able to have a conversation about it like his big sister.

So if I met someone now, I don't think I would introduce them to the kids for quite a long period of time. 

[00:45:13] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:45:14] Anna: But this all changes so much, you know, their ability to understand and to have discussions and get attached or not get attached really changes a lot over these years. So I think it just depends on the specific timeframe.

I will also say that the-- just for anyone else who's listening who has-- is a single parent with another parent involved, their ability to try and stop their child meeting a person that you're dating is really quite difficult because, um, it's hard to have a relationship when you don't have enough childcare and, you know, term-time only.

It's kinda not really a joke, you know, not being able to see your partner for two weeks or six weeks, you know, over the summer holidays isn't really acceptable. So I do think there needs to be some reality checking here, like if you are gonna have a relationship over that time, they're gonna need to meet your kids in one form or another, and if you're in a situation where your ex-partner is saying, "No, because I don't want them to meet my child," then that's not great.

And, um, yeah, I don't really have any other words to say about that, but it's a really difficult dynamic. 

[00:46:26] Emma Pickett: Yeah. No, for sure. For sure. You mentioned that your-- one of your r- recent partners was a friend of-- sort of long-term friend. D- have you managed to convert that back to a friendship, or is that still a bit tricky?

[00:46:36] Anna: We are trying. Um, we made an agreement to meet up-- well, I suggested let's meet up, you know, in another two or three months. So we put something in the diary well ahead of time, and we've had the odd texting about politics and stuff. My difficulty is, is that I'm not completely sure, um, about-- so some of these, um, bad behaviors which required the toilet roll stealing as punishment, I'm not entirely sure how intentionally-- how intentional those are.

I think when you get to the point-- I mean, I'm 40, right? So I'm dating people who, they have their life, they have baggage, it's complicated. And yeah, it's difficult to really understand is this someone who's just really not a very nice person, or have they done some not very nice things because life is complicated and they've made mistakes, and they have a lot of hurt and pain, you know, and grief mixed up in their emotional life.

So I think that will be the balance of it. If I can feel confident again that they're not an A-hole and just a slightly lost person, then that will help friendship. Okay. But yeah. 

[00:47:50] Emma Pickett: Gosh, that sounds like you've had some tough times. Um- Yeah, okay. Thanks for sharing that. And I'm, I'm sort of guessing I already know the answer to this question, but you're not someone who would ever take a negative comment about natural term breastfeeding.

You're not gonna tolerate anyone saying, "Come on now, when are you gonna wrap this up?" Have you had any partners recently who've tried that sort of language? 

[00:48:10] Anna: There was, it was mentioned briefly. Um, so, um, the second partner that I had, um, it wasn't in a negative way, but it was like, "Oh, you know, when the child is weaned, you know, in the future..."

We were more, like, trying to envisage our lives together, um, further into the future, and I felt that was a bit of a sore point for me. It, I wasn't upset by it, but I just didn't feel like it was their place to talk about. However, I've also felt the opposite with, um, the first partner who I had a child with.

He was very much, "This is your body, this is your choice," to the point of me feeling not really supported. Um, which I think happens within marriages as well, right? It wasn't in any way negative. It was just like, "This is a women's issue," kind of thing. 

[00:48:55] Emma Pickett: Okay, okay. So, yeah Nothing to do with me. I'm not gonna emotionally support you in this because it's not my business type thing.

Sort of absolving themselves from offering support. 

[00:49:04] Anna: And, and feeling quite superior about doing that because I think, um, he felt like that was a good modern perspective, you know? Yeah To, like, not try and control my body in any way, and I'm like- 

[00:49:18] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I, I can see how people get there, can't you? You can see how if you're a man who wants to be supportive- Yeah

you, you don't want to have an opinion. Uh, but I remember one of the quest- Yeah ... one of the questions that someone once posed in one of my podcast episodes is they wanted their partner to have an opinion. They actually wanted to be able to have a discussion about it and talk about it, and, and their partner was so nervous about expressing a view that that was actually a point of contention for her.

Yeah. So it's difficult to get that, that balance right. 

[00:49:44] Frankie: Yeah. 

[00:49:44] Emma Pickett: I, I, I think vegans are your way forward, Anna. I think the, I think there's a Venn diagram where vegans get lactation and get breastfeeding, and I think that's, that's gotta be the way forward. There, there is a vegan dating site, 

[00:49:57] Anna: isn't there? There is.

And you know, I met someone on there. So the very first date I went on was this vegan guy. We're still in touch occasionally, really not attracted to each other. But I remember his profile was like, um, "Attachment parenting, woop woop, supporting my ex with breastfeeding." And I was like, vegan, and I was like, "Oh my God, it must be love."

But actually then when we met up, um, it turns out that he'd ended the relationship, and like at that time I couldn't be with someone who'd ended a relationship. I just, it's... Like grow- dating when you're a grown-up with all this baggage is not simple. 

[00:50:31] Emma Pickett: Okay, I'm gonna have to pin you down there, Anna. You want someone who's been dumped.

You don't want someone who's dumped someone else. What's going on there? 

[00:50:37] Anna: It might be different now, but at the time I'd had, I'd been walked out on, right? Was how it felt. And I Couldn't really deal with that. I, I couldn't date someone who'd just done that. Um, so as another example, right, I was recently propositioned by the owner of a gym, and, uh, the guy is like fit You know, like, wowza, it had already occurred to me.

But this would've been, um, non-ethical mono- like, non-monogamy, right? And I was like, "No." 

[00:51:13] Emma Pickett: You mean they're, they're in a re- they're in a relationship with someone else, and that's un- okay. Okay. 

[00:51:17] Anna: Yeah. And I was like, "No." And I think it's a simil- similar thing, right? Like, I would never knowingly do that to someone else because I kinda know how that feels.

[00:51:26] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I understand. Yeah. 

[00:51:27] Anna: Yeah. So I think maybe now things are a bit more nuanced, but, um, it's, it's, it's difficult, right? Like, it's not, it's, it's not a simple thing. Maybe I'm picky. I don't feel like I'm picky. Am I 

[00:51:39] Emma Pickett: picky? You're allowed to be picky, Anna. This... As you say, you've got so little time in your life for dating and, and being with other people.

Be picky, damn it, exclamation mark. 

[00:51:48] Anna: Be 

[00:51:48] Emma Pickett: picky. Um- 

[00:51:49] Anna: Well, I recently propositioned the mechanic in my garage. This is my latest idea. I'm gonna find a trade. Somebody who's useful. Oh, 

[00:51:55] Emma Pickett: that's handy. Plumbers, electricians. Absolutely. That is the... If we can do the Venn diagram, vegan- Yeah ... plumber, electrician, uh, DIY expert, and- Yeah

supportive of natural term breastfeeding- Perfect ... I think you've nailed it. 

[00:52:07] Anna: Yeah. 

[00:52:08] Emma Pickett: Sorry, did... Well, sorry, Frankie, what did you say? 

[00:52:10] Frankie: I think the vegan tradie is gonna be a hard find. 

[00:52:12] Emma Pickett: Ooh, 

[00:52:12] Anna: outrageous. Do you know, I did meet one. I did. I did meet a vegan plumber, but he was so, like, his comment to me was, um, "I bet you don't fit in well round here, do you?

You should go and move to Hebden Bridge. You'd fit right in." And I was like, "Thank you. Yes, that's just, that's just what I wanted to hear today." So, I mean, he may have got it all right. Anyway, he was, he was a very elderly married gentleman, so, um, but yeah. 

[00:52:42] Emma Pickett: Okay. And, and Frankie, question to you, do you have parents or family who are watching you date and having opinions about that?

Do I... Like, we, I guess it kinda connects a little bit what we're saying to Anna about the kind of Madonna, you know, whore dichotomy. You know, are mums with young children allowed to date, in inverted commas. Have you ever d- had any comments from kind of family members of thinking it's an issue, or they're just really supportive?

[00:53:07] Frankie: No. Um, my mum is fantastic in, in every way, and, um, she's been nothing but supportive. Um, she's had Rudy for an hour, couple of hours so that I can have some one-on-one time with people that I'm dating. She know, she knows full well why she's having him for those hours. Uh, and she's more than happy to do it.

Yeah. And then I think, I don't think there's anyone close in my life that, that would judge any of it. And if there is anyone that I think would judge it, I just don't tell them I'm not close enough for it to make a difference to their lives, if you get what I mean. 

[00:53:47] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, no one has a right to judge anyone in that situation.

You have ab- you're absolutely entitled to date and have a partner, but some people are a bit funny about it, um, if they think that your child is meeting people. Um- Mm. Okay. Well, I really, really appreciate your time today, both of you. If someone's listening to this and they're, let's imagine that their relationship's broken down, they're a single parent for the first time, they're still breastfeeding, and they are feeling really panicked about the idea of not being able to find a partner, um, what kind of message would you want to give that person?

Let me start with you, Anna. 

[00:54:19] Anna: Oh, so I think first of all, being a single parent not by choice, especially with limited support, can be incredibly hard and extremely isolating. Like really, really isolating. Especially if you're co-sleeping, you know, so you don't see any other adults after you get your kids back at, you know, 3:00, 4:00.

Especially if you're working remotely, you know, it, it can be really hard. And I guess I, I want people to know you're not alone. It is hard. Try and build, just dating to one side for a second, try and build a network of people locally, whatever you can to just have people around you. And then about the dating, I think maybe, maybe don't sweat it too much.

There are people out there. In this modern world, post-COVID, there's loads of people who can go on dates in the day. You know, there's loads of shift workers. So the, the son's dad is a shift worker. Um, the other guy was retired. Um, the middle one, who I didn't meet up with, was self-employed. I've, you know, kind of been on the odd date with, you know, kind of people, professional people, GP, um, journalist.

There's loads of people who can go on dates in the day. You can fit stuff in. You're still, you know, desirable and, and, and all that stuff. And I think the hardest part really is just within yourself balancing your needs against your children's needs and all of that stuff, and, um, just try and take it in the round, not hour by hour.

You know, there's gonna be some weeks where you wanna focus on your new relationship and you wa- and you're really excited about it, and there's gonna be other weeks where you're not interested in that and you wanna just really focus on your children, and that's okay. Yeah. And I hope to s- that you present yourself as a whole person, fallible, and with needs to your children, and hopefully they'll grow up understanding life more.

[00:56:16] Emma Pickett: Yeah. You expressed that beautifully. Yeah, I think that's, that's, that's excellent advice. And, and I think, you know, as, as parents and mothers we're very quick to feel guilty, aren't we? And the idea- Mm ... of choosing to date, you know, we are putting ourselves ahead of our children. That feels outrageous, but we must always remember that you cannot parent without self-care and without prioritizing yourself sometimes, and you're absolutely entitled and allowed to, to want a partner and to want sex.

Um- Frankie, would you have any advice for somebody in that situation? 

[00:56:44] Frankie: I think make sure you're not relying on that person to make you happy. Make sure that you're happy in yourself and how you're parenting and how everything else looks first so that you can just bring someone else into that so that you're confident enough in the way you're doing things, um, and what you're doing, that if they have issues with that you can just let them go.

I think that's what it is. You just need, you need to be happy with yourself and what you're doing before you can look at bringing someone else in. And just don't, don't rush it, don't push it. It'll happen when it happens. 

[00:57:17] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That's excellent advice. I think it's very easy, isn't it, as a society to, to judge ourselves by our success in relationships.

And you know, we are in a relationship, tick, we've ticked that box. You know, we've achieved, we're, we've reached the pinnacle of human success. But actually, as you say, it should be in addition to a wide successful life- Yeah ... where you connect with other people. And there's something you said, Anna, about making sure you're not, you know, you're, you have a social network, not just a dating network.

You know, the energy you put into messaging 10 people on Bumble- Yeah ... put that energy into meeting other platonic friends and making platonic connections and, and that will get you the friend of the friend that, that Frankie's ended up with. And- Yeah ... and making that, that wider connection I think is really valuable.

And also, I mean, we haven't really talked about this but just, just finally, this is a time in people's lives when their bodies have really changed. Um, you know, bo- our bodies don't look the same that they did before we had babies, and that can be quite scary, the idea of meeting somebody new who's gonna see that body for the first time.

Do either of you have anything to, to add on that? Has that ever been an issue for either of you? 

[00:58:19] Anna: I'm not joking about the aging elephant's ball sack, seriously. Like, um- Um, that is one of the hardest things for me, and it's weird because believe me, you know, the rather, uh, rotund father of the second child and the retired person that I dated after that do not have glorious bodies.

But I think that that kind of man's body just doesn't, it doesn't go through what this body has gone through. It, it, I've, I mean, A, I have hypermobility and some other disabilities anyway, but B, you know, I grew two children. I had an emergency cesarean. It, I've been, it's not great, you know? Um, but honestly I don't think they care.

It's warm, it's soft, it's like- ... whatever, you know. I really don't ca- I mean, you just turn the lights down a little bit. It's hard. It requires courage. I'm not gonna lie, that required a lot of courage for me. And I just think, you know, high-waisted pants and, uh, you know, industrially strengthened bras and be in charge.

They like that, you know? Yeah. It's all good. Yeah. It's all good. 

[00:59:32] Frankie: No, I think Anna's right. I think they don't care You have to be confident in it. It, it's, it's you being confident in it that's, that's the issue. And I have, I had a tattoo, um, not long before I got pregnant that sat just under my, my breasts.

You can't see any of that tattoo anymore. It's gone. It's, it's worthless. You can see exactly how much lower my, my breasts are now, so that's a nice measure of it, but no one else cares. 

[00:59:58] Emma Pickett: Yeah, you're right. We- we're warm, we're soft. We've got holes in the right places. Was that too much information? Yeah, that i- that is, that is the reality.

Thank you so much, both of you. I really, really appreciate your time. Very, very best of luck with your, with your relationships and future relationships, and, um, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. Thank 

[01:00:15] Anna: you. Yeah, okay.

[01:00:21] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at emmapickettibclc and on Twitter at makesmilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist, and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.