Weaning and natural term breastfeeding Q&A with Carly from Seedpod Part 2

This week, we have the return of the brilliant Carly Facius, Midwife, IBCLC, Women's Circle Facilitator and Aware Parenting Mentor. She’s joining me to answer your questions about weaning and natural term breastfeeding in two back-to-back episodes. 

In part 2, we delve into question topics ranging from night weaning and bedtime routines to dealing with biting, hitting and kicking. 

To find a list of questions, please consult the transcript of this episode.

You can find out more about Carly at www.seedpodfamilies.com or follow her on Instagram @‌seed_pod_

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, by going to https://bit.ly/JKPbooks and using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

Questions are in bold.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Welcome back to episode part two. That's actually, that's not what it's called, is it?

Part two of the Q&A with Emma and Carly. Um, we haven't got a jingle, and we won't hum, hum anything for you now. But we're here to continue answering your questions about natural term breastfeeding and, and weaning.

Here's question number one. Um, this one's for you to get started with, Carly. I love this question.

How do you manage natural term weaning when you return to work? Will I confuse her if I nurse on demand, but I'm at work in the day? Will she get upset if the, there's no boobies in the daytime? What would you say to this person? 

[00:01:21] Carly Facius: I would say you can do whatever you want. Um, I don't imagine your child will be confused because if you're not there, then obviously it's not possible to breastfeed, and I would encourage you to keep feeding in the way that feels right for you.

And feeding on demand when you're at home with your child, if that's what you wanna do, then I would encourage you to do that. Will she get upset when there's no boob during the day? I imagine that because you're not there, it's very different when the breastfeeding parent's not in front of the child. So potentially she might ask for it, but I imagine that whoever is with her is going to be able to support her with that, and potentially offer her different things that she may enjoy.

And then when you come home from work, she'll probably be very excited to see you and breastfeed. 

[00:02:16] Emma Pickett: Yep, that is the reality. I mean, most people who practice natural term breastfeeding are working. I mean, most people are outside the home and, you know, per- working part-time or even full-time, and it absolutely works.

And your child will understand that when you're not around, milk's not available. They will make connections with their other caregivers. Will they get upset that there's no boobies? I mean, she might get upset 'cause you're not there, 'cause that's what well-attached little people do initially before they've built up relationship with their other caregivers.

But ending breastfeeding won't stop that upset. In fact, if anything, ending breastfeeding may make her more dysregulated if it happens close to that period of separation No, you will not confuse her if you carry on feeding with dem- on demand when you're with her. Lots and lots of people are doing that.

They're feeding all weekend, they're feeding when they get home from work, they might even be still feeding in the night, and little people will sleep in nurseries, they will lie down on beds and go to sleep, they will happily connect with other caregivers. Um, so if you wanna carry on breastfeeding, you absolutely do it, and it absolutely works.

The only thing I might think about is if you are a big producer, you may need to express during the day, um, potentially. Um, not everyone does, it depends how old your baby is. But you may find that if you've had, like, a, a weekend of lots and lots of on-demand nursing Monday, Tuesday, you might be a bit full in the middle of the day and need to do a little bit of expressing.

But you don't necessarily even need to keep the milk. She doesn't need to drink milk when you're not together. If she's more than eight, eight months old, she's fine with solids and water. Um, but yeah, keep going 'cause that's what a lot of people do. Next question says, "Can you stop one night feed but continue breastfeeding in the early hours?

Would that be confusing?" So you absolutely can stop a night feed and continue breastfeeding in the early hours. Lots and lots of people do. They call it night weaning. You can decide when your morning is. You can decide when you're gonna feed and when you're not gonna feed. Partial night weaning is, can be super successful and can really help people.

It can be confusing, so I always recommend that we try and use some communication if we can. I think it's really helpful for little people to have some kind of external visual sign of when milk's available and when it's not. Otherwise, you get this, not only are they cross they can't breastfeed, but they're also cross because they thought there maybe, may have been a chance, and they get some dashed hopes.

So I know I've talked about clocks in the last episode and using a color indicator clock. Not every family wants to have a kinda green sheep in the corner of their room, so you might have a nightlight on a timer, and when the nightlight goes on, we can have milk. And the nightlight can go on at 3:00 AM if you want to, um, you know, a little dim nightlight.

You might have a, a rule that, you know, when Mommy's top is closed, or when my top is closed, we can't have milk, or when the curtains are open, we can have milk. And you can open the curtains, curtains at 4:00 AM if you want to. So I think it is helpful to have some kind of external sign to reduce confusion.

But having said that, it really depends on the temperament of your child. Um, some people, when you say to your little person, "Actually, sweetie, boobies are still sleeping right now. I'll tell you when they're awake," they're fine. They get it. They're not even remotely bothered. Um, other children are, are livid at the inconsistency.

So I think it really depends on the personality of a child. But no, it is not confusing. Um, it's absolutely possible to feed at some points and f- not feed at other points. 

[00:05:30] Carly Facius: Mm. 

[00:05:30] Emma Pickett: That's my 10 cents. 

[00:05:31] Carly Facius: Yes. I think it actually makes sense for lots of families to reduce or cut out feeds in the first half of the night, and then still feed in the early hours because often that's when- Babies and children are more sensitive to wake-ups with the melatonin starting to ease and the cortisol starting to rise.

So often people find that is the time when they wake up. So if they're after a bit of a chunk of rest, it's more likely gonna happen in that first half of the night. So I, I think it makes sense, and I feel like definitely giving your child information, and particularly, like, if there is another parent, perhaps they could sleep with the other parent or on the other side of the bed or next to that parent for the first half of the night, and then when it's time to breastfeed, that's when they move to you.

So often people do that where it's, like, the father or other partner might be cuddling the child, and if they wake up, they might get a cuddle or a drink of water, going back to sleep with that caregiver. And then once it's go time for the early morning feed, then they can move over. So there's definitely lots of ways to do it.

[00:06:41] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Next one for you to start. "Will frequency in breastfeeding demands ever drop? My three-and-a-half-year-old demands as often as they did when he was 18 months old. He's feeding for getting to sleep at night and midday, and after waking up in the morning and from his nap, and when he wakes in the night and after daycare, all of them are long feeds.

I'm curious if he might lose interest by himself if I don't change anything, or are some impulses from me necessary? Will I have to change things myself?" 

[00:07:12] Carly Facius: So he will reduce feeds eventually. Um, we can't say when, but definitely he will, and it's really up to this mother to decide. She hasn't actually explained whether that's a problem for her or not.

It's more of a question that his frequency is still incredibly high compared to as, as frequent as when he was 18 months old, and that he has long feeds frequently. So I guess my first question would be, is it a problem for you? Um, is it something that you wanna change? Are you wanting to be led by him?

Is that the idea that you're wanting to just see what happens in terms of will h- will it eventually reduce, or do you need to initiate some changes yourself? So it will reduce, and he might keep doing that for some time, but obviously, what's going to happen in the future, is he going to go to school or, you know, are there going to be separations between the mother and the fa- 

[00:08:12] Emma Pickett: Sounds like he's already doing some daycare already- 

[00:08:15] Carly Facius: Yeah

[00:08:15] Emma Pickett: um, from what she's saying. 

[00:08:17] Carly Facius: Yeah, and then some longer, potentially longer separations if he's starting school. 

[00:08:22] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, yeah, you're absolutely right. He's... Everybody self-weans in the end. Everybody self-weans- Mm-hmm ... in the end. But it may not be for a while. Three and a half is still, um, you know, it could be potentially months or years away.

So I guess if you're bothered and it's making you sad, you absolutely can make changes if you want to, but he will lose interest in the end. He absolutely will I guess if they're long feeds, we might want to think about is he thirsty, is he hungry, what else is going on? Um, is he asking for connection?

What other ways do you as a pair connect and play? How else can he ask for affection and time with you? Uh, occasion- not saying at all this is the case for this parent, but occasionally we get into patterns where little people don't ask for cuddles. They o- only ask for breastfeeds, and asking for a breastfeed is the family dialogue for, "Can I have a cuddle?"

So let's make sure there are other ways to ask for affection, and there are other ways to ask for connection. And w- if you add in some alternatives and diversify the things they can ask for, you might find, you know, they'll ask for the power reversal play, they'll ask for the silly dancing. Mm. You know, they'll ask for the, for the giggly games.

Um, but yeah, simple answer to that question, yes, he will reduce in the end. 

[00:09:33] Carly Facius: Mm-hmm. I'd also be curious what behavior he has when he asks to feed. So is it kind of him asking in a more gentle or clear way, or is it very insistent and urgent? Um, and like, does it happen when they're home? Does it happen out in public?

'Cause often you see older children, they might arrive in a social situation with a group of people, and the child feels uncomfortable, and so the first thing they wanna do is breastfeed. That's how they, you know, help to regulate, help to feel calm. So getting curious about, like, what kind of behaviors are associated with these requests to feed, and are there other things that you can bring in to support him if he's potentially feeling uneasy or uncomfortable at certain times.

[00:10:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, as, as always, doing the detective work and working out where the requests come from, really important. Okay, next question says, 'When you start night weaning, is it better to shorten or stop the first feed and then feed at the wake-ups, or is it better to do the first feed as normal and then stop feeding at the wake-ups?'

Oh, okay. So let me... I don't qui- I don't think I quite understand this question, so I did try and message this person, but I didn't hear back. So I think they're saying, "Do we change the bedtime feed first?" I think when they say first feed, they mean the bedtime feed. Do we shorten and stop the bedtime feed, but then still do wake-up feeds, or do you feed the, at bedtime as normal and then stop feeding at the wake-ups?

I guess with night weaning, it's really important to acknowledge what's true of any weaning, there isn't a one way of doing this. There isn't the weaning method that everyone should follow, and anyone who tells you there is, let's be a bit wary of that person because every child is different, and every parent is different.

If the bedtime feed is really bothering you, if you are having aversion, if you're really struggling, if you hate it, if you're feeling resentful and dysregulated, then you start with the bedtime feed Um, and you can absolutely reduce that first if that's what you want to do. But I wouldn't say that's what most people do.

I think in my experience, most people who want to do some night weaning tend to keep the bedtime feed, and that's often the last one to go. So when they put their child down, there's lots of lovely connection time. There's a nice unrestricted feed. They may even still be feeding to sleep at bedtime potentially, um, and then working on the wake-ups.

Um, and then what you do next, you might then shorten the next feeds, shorten the wake-up feeds before you reduce them entirely, or depending on the age of your child, you might communicate the fact that there's not going to be a wake-up feed at all at certain times of the night, and you might start to increase that block of time when there's no wake-up feed.

But I would say most people do the bedtime feed as normal. The only caveat I might say to that is if your child is waking very frequently through the night and is waking with every sleep cycle, then I sometimes think it is perhaps sensible to do the bedtime feed, but maybe experiment with not feeding into a deep sleep state, just in case your child perceives that feeding into a deep sleep state is essential for every wake-up.

You want them to feel safe to fall asleep without the breast being in their mouth, and actually bedtime can be a good time to practice that. So you could still do the bedtime feed, but maybe do some habit stacking, maybe experiment with taking them off just to see if that means at nighttime they're happier to fall back to sleep without the breast being in their mouth.

But lots of people will continue breastfeeding to sleep at bedtime when they start night weaning. Yeah. Did I... That was a bit confusing the way I answered that, but did that make sense to you, Carly? 

[00:13:07] Carly Facius: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. The most important question is, yeah, what's enjoyable and what's unenjoyable. I've found with a lot of families I've worked with recently, they want to eliminate the feed to sleep, and that's often for, you know, toddlers or women who are wanting to have a bit of space in the evening, and they're wanting their partners to step in for bedtime.

Um, and that can be quite helpful just as a bit of a transition phase, particularly when there might... that child may have only ever breastfed to sleep for nap time, bedtime, throughout the night. So giving an opportunity for partners to step in and be able to do that can feel really empowering for everybody, and it can kind of shift the family dynamic as well, and potentially deepen the bond between the partner and the child, or the non-breastfeeding parent and the child.

So that's something I like to experiment with a lot around, yeah, is there space to have, like, to breastfeed out of the bedroom, like potentially on the couch or something like that And then have the whole family doing some play, so that could be in the bedroom where everyone's together rolling around the bed, laughing, jumping on the bed, whatever.

And then it's like, "Okay, now it's time to go to sleep", and the breastfeeding parent is heading out, um, and seeing how that goes. Which obviously sometimes doesn't go, and sometimes it, it is not a difficult transition, so. 

[00:14:42] Emma Pickett: Yeah. No, I think it's important to make sure we're using every, every resource we have, and inclu- including other parents.

And I, I'd also would just add that you can also have a family where when the breastfeeding parent's doing bedtime they feed to sleep, and when it's not their turn the other parent sleep, does bedtime a different way. That is possible. Yeah. That is a scenario that, that does work. Um- 

[00:15:03] Carly Facius: Yeah ... 

[00:15:04] Emma Pickett: yeah. 

[00:15:04] Carly Facius: That works in my family.

[00:15:07] Emma Pickett: Oh, good to hear. Okay, next question says, "I'm two years one month into my feeding journey, and my toddler is at times feeding more than a newborn overnight. I'm so tired, and I was so unprepared for the emotional intensity of setting and holding feeding boundaries with him. I n- need sleep to feel ready to night wean, but I can't sleep properly until I night wean, is how it feels.

Tips for gentle, loving night weaning would be so welcome, and how to prepare myself for what's to come."

Mm. Okay. I love that thing about too tired to night wean and need to, need to night wean to be ti- you know, have to have- Yeah ... the energy to night wean. I, I, I totally relate to that. What would you say to 

[00:15:41] Carly Facius: that, Tam?

[00:15:41] Emma Pickett: Absolutely. 

[00:15:42] Carly Facius: And I think that's a really helpful thing for everybody to acknowledge, is that if you're absolutely depleted, and desperate, and exhausted, it's very difficult to do any kind of change to the breastfeeding rhythm, because it often requires more energy, more resources, more time, more capacity at the onset, you know, as you start to do it.

And then as you move along it's going to reduce, and things are going to balance out. But if you're completely exhausted and depleted, it can be very difficult to start doing changes, particularly at nighttime because you're tired, and to listen to feelings and hold limits at nighttime can be really hard.

I'd be curious about if there's any reason why the feeding frequency has felt like it's increased as similar to a newborn, like if there's anything that's happened or if it's always been like that. So sometimes I do wonder when feeding frequency really increases, like has there been any kind of like stressful events or big life changes in the child's life, like starting daycare, or moving house, or a sibling arriving in the family?

'Cause I often hear breastfeeding challenges, and then they say as a afterthought, "Oh, you know, I'm pregnant." And you're like, "Oh." You know, or, "We've moved house", or this has happened. The dog died or, you know, there's been something significant that's happened within the family. Um, so I guess if this is just the norm, if this child has always fed frequently at night, then I would be really wanting this mother to get s- as resourced as possible as she can before starting to kind of move into some boundary setting and limit setting because it's very difficult to hold a boundary when you're wiped out.

It's very difficult- Yeah ... to stay in that. And so is it possible to kind of like zoom out a little bit and look, look ahead thinking, "Okay, how can I resource myself first for this period of time?" Before then going into more of a, like, specific approach around putting in boundaries. 

[00:17:59] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, I'm th- I'm thinking outside the box.

You know, if, if I'm, I'm assuming this... Let's imagine this person doesn't have a partner, and what that life might look like. You know, is there a friend that can drive your toddler around for two hours between 9:00 PM and 11:00 PM? I mean, y- that's horrifying for some people that I'm saying that, but actually if, if you know that you're gonna be able to get two solid hours of sleep, um, b- you know, before you have to do anything else, that may actually make a difference for a week, and then you've got the energy to do the next thing.

Um, you know, you may have to go to bed crazy early, um, for a little while to, to, to be able to build up some, some sleep to be able to look at the next thing. I mean, a child that's waking really frequently at this age, I'd probably want to look at other factors as well. Um, you know, what's happening with diet.

If they really are feeding more than a newborn, you know, could there be an allergy response? Um, what is happening with food intake? Um, what's happening physically? Is this child going to bed after having spent an evening in a very, very light, bright environment? Are we not... Do we maybe not have some melatonin production going on?

What's happening with daytime sleep? Um, do we need some adjustments and to increase sleep pressure? And in terms of tips for gentle, loving night weaning, I, I have a podcast episode called Night Weaning. Um, lots of resources are, are available, but essentially let's start with some habit stacking. Let's create some other methods that feel familiar to that child around falling asleep, creating a muscle memory for the act of falling asleep that's not just about breastfeeding.

So I'm a big fan of guided meditations at bedtime, using your voice as a soothing, calming method, even just having some little phrases that you might say in the middle of the night, perhaps holding them in a certain position or patting them or rubbing them, maybe having a go introducing a transitional object that's a cuddly toy that they connect to.

Um, and then if the habit stacking is something that they start to feel an affection for, very gently Taking the breastfeeding out of the equation, and that might include some daytime role plays and talking about breastfeeding in the day, maybe some boundaries in the day to sow the seeds of boundaries rather than unboundaried feeding in the day.

Um, and then I would be talking to a two-year-old and saying, "I'm so sorry, sweetie, but Mommy's body is tired, and boobies need to sleep at night. Um, and sometimes boobies will be sleeping, but we can do story instead, we can do cuddle instead, we can do teddy instead." So it's a combination of habit stacking and building up the kind of subconscious associations, and then the very conscious talking, communicating, explaining, saying that Mommy's body is tired, and that things will need to change, and holding capacity for any emotional reaction that comes around that.

But for more detail, go to the n- the night weaning podcast episode or some of the other conversations I've had with parents about night weaning. Okay, so next question says, "How do you stop permanent night sucking for hours? Little person who's, is 14 months old. Baby-led weaning's working fine. Until now, I've been nursing on demand, which we love, but I'm so tired."

Okay. So I would say that if someone is literally permanently suckling and is on constantly, doesn't sound like they're necessarily falling into a deeper sleep state, and they're staying in a lighter sleep state. So I think we'd probably start with talking about what's happening with this person's naps.

So at 14 months, are they transitioning to one nap? Are they down to one nap? What's the sleep pressure like? How close is that nap to bedtime? Because if that little person is going to bed, and they don't have enough sleep pressure, they're gonna be staying in that lighter sleep state. You know, if that person's going to bed at 7:00 PM, and the nighttime suckling's happening from 4:00 AM, that could be because that child doesn't need to sleep for 12 hours, and, and some of that nighttime suckling is just about not having enough sleep pressure.

Um, so I'd probably want to have a conversation around naps first. And then again, it comes back to habit stacking. I should get the word habit stacking tattooed on my forehead. Um, creating new associations, and if you create a new association, which at 14 months might be patting, it might be spooning, it might be cuddling with a little bit of pressure, you are going to layer that on top of the breastfeeding, and then you're gonna gradually take them off the breast and continue with the other method.

But you need to be regulated to do that because if we are feeling that sense of tension and frustration, that's gonna rub off on the little person. So, so we have to be in a calm, regulated state to be able to offer other forms of comfort and other forms of soothing. But essentially, you need to build up some new associations, and that probably is going to be close contact, cuddling, patting Maybe again saying some phrases or singing or, um, something to your voice as well.

Um, it is absolutely possible to break this pattern. It, it really, really is. It doesn't have to mean an end to breastfeeding. It's just about creating new ways for that little person to feel safe at night, and it's absolutely possible to do that. 

[00:22:58] Carly Facius: Do you often talk with parents about sleep latency, like if they're putting a child to sleep and it's taking a really long time, that actually it's likely they're not quite ready to sleep, and- Yes

perhaps get up- Yeah ... and do some play and then come back again? 

[00:23:12] Emma Pickett: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, lots of people trying bedtimes that are too early. 

[00:23:16] Carly Facius: Yeah. '

[00:23:16] Emma Pickett: Cause culturally we think little people go to bed at 7:00 PM. Yeah. And I've even met people going to bed at 6:30 PM, and then they're, shock, the little kid's up at 3:00 AM and not, not asleep enough.

Um- Yeah ... yeah, so, so lots of little people will be doing better with a later bedtime, um, and then, and then have deep sleep when we want them to be having deep sleep. 

[00:23:33] Carly Facius: Yeah, definitely. I think we do get a bit caught out with time, with bedtime, and obviously it's, you know, trying to fit it in around family.

But I lived in Indonesia for 10 years and, yeah, people went to sleep very late, and they did practice the biphasic sleep that you spoke about earlier, that often we actually do, do better when we sleep twice in a day rather than in a 24-hour period than once. So yeah, it's interesting to think about that.

[00:24:02] Emma Pickett: Okay. Right, next one for you. Here we go. 'I have a nearly one-year-old who's exclusively breastfed and co-sleeping. He's started biting, and I'm going back to work soon, so I'm feeling like this is the moment to wean. I was wondering if you had any advice for weaning but continuing to co-sleep.' 

[00:24:19] Carly Facius: Um, I would be curious if this person really wants to wean, firstly, and that returning to work and biting don't necessarily mean that they have to wean.

Biting is not a reason to wean, that there's things that we can look at around biting. If this mother is just ready to wean, then obviously that is understandable. But if it's because of these two things that are kind of like feeling like they're prompting that decision, then there's ways to support her to continue breastfeeding and navigate through the return to work and the biting.

So continuing to co-sleep, it's, you know, absolutely possible to stop breastfeeding and keep co-sleeping. Many, many parents do it. I imagine the majority of the world does it because 90% of the world co-sleeps, and a lot of them breastfeed. So it is absolutely possible to do that. And a lot of the things that we have shared around preparing your child as much as possible, finding other ways to feel really connected, and habit stacking, so finding ways to- Bring in other, other comfort measures or ways for that child to feel calm and connected.

So whether that's like do you lay down together and listen to music? Is there a story that you can tell them? Is there a particular book or something that you can read? Can you share something together that is able to kind of offer them the connection that the breastfeed would normally? And it's likely that there will be feelings in the night, so finding ways to be able to support yourself in that time.

So if you are returning to work, then hopefully you've got a bit of time to prepare for that because it might be a good idea to start the process as soon as possible so that you're not making this huge, big... these two big transitions at the same time. So if you are ending f- feeding and returning to work, obviously that's a lot of change for a little person.

So if there were ways to start or go quite f- far along with the weaning process prior to returning to work, that would be helpful. However, if you were choosing not to wean, and you could continue breastfeeding and return to work, then that would likely be supportive for your child during those times of separation.

[00:26:56] Emma Pickett: Let's have a quick chat about the biting. Why do nearly 1-year-olds bite? So it can be to do with positioning. Um, again, if they've lost that head tilt and they don't have chin contact on the breast, and they're coming in nose first, we may find that the teeth aren't going to be protected by the tongue as they come to the breast, and those lower incisors will be biting.

A child can't extract milk and bite at the same time, so if they are choosing to bite, they're often retracting their tongue out of the way in order to do that, and you will often see a shift in their jaw, um, as they're doing that. You may even notice that they get a bit of eye contact because they're waiting to see how you react.

So keeping an eye on their jaw. If you see that jaw shift and they're no longer swallowing, breaking the latch and taking them off. They may also be biting because they're saying that they don't want to feed, so feel free to end feeds once they're no lo- are no longer actively swallowing. They may also be saying that they're not hungry, so just check you're not over-offering.

Um, some people are still offering according to an historical pattern, and actually the child's ready for longer gaps, and they don't want the breastfeed, and that's one of the reasons they might bite. They might also bite in response to fast flow or slow flow, or they might be teething. So if teething's happening, just checking they've got opportunities to bite on other things.

Um, but the first step is positioning because if the chin is buried into the breast and they have that head tilt, it's actually really difficult to bite and actually get teeth in contact with the breast in a way that they can bite. So it's keeping them super close, getting that chin contact, getting that head tilt is often the first step.

[00:28:22] Carly Facius: Also, being as present as you can with the feed because often that biting, like you said, w- might be due to latch or positioning and can happen at the end of the feed for various reasons. So If you're distracted, then it's more likely that there's something that they may bite because you're not actually paying attention to when they're ready to come off.

So if there has been some biting, it can be really helpful to be very observant during the feed and be noticing those changes that you just spoke about. 

[00:28:56] Emma Pickett: I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got The Story of Jessie's Milkies, which is a picture book from two to six-year-olds that really tells the story of little Jessie and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways.

Maybe there'll be a new baby sister, maybe his mom will need to practice parent-led weaning, maybe he'll have a self-weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we're there to support them through all of them, and also we sometimes have needs too.

Also on endings, we have Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child. There are also chapters on different individual situations like weaning an older child when there's still a baby feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation.

Then we have Supporting Breastfeeding Past the First Six Months and Beyond that's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond. What are the common challenges, and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey.

Then we have The Breast Book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14-year-olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is. I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives.

So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley Press website. That's uk.jkp.com. Use the code MMPE10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful.

It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you.

Okay, the next question, I said I'm not gonna be very popular answering this question, but here, so here we go. Um, what's the best way to night wean a 12-month-old that feeds a lot at night, so isn't wanting much food in the day, and doesn't take a bottle? Okay, so this is when I say I might not be very popular.

It is not always possible to night wean a 12-month-old. It is not always possible, and 12-month-olds absolutely can still need milk at night, and they may need milk for nutritional reasons at night Um, I know lots of people think that night weaning a child as young as 10 months is normal and expected, and you just haven't found the tricks, and you haven't found the right person to help you do it.

But truthfully, as a species, we're expecting to still breastfeed children at night at this age for nutritional reasons, as well as comfort and other reasons. Now, I wouldn't assume that necessarily the fact they're not eating in the day is because they're breastfeeding at night, because actually lots of little people who are two and three who are breastfeeding multiple times in the night will eat brilliantly in the day.

So I would actually want this person to get some help with solid food first, because I'm always very wary of anyone who says, "I need to wean to improve solid food intake," because sometimes you might end up breastfeeding less and solid food intake doesn't increase, and a child is at risk because actually there was something underlying the m- the fact they weren't eating solid food.

So, um, I, I might mention, say, Stacey Zimmels, who is Feed Eat Speak on Instagram, Lucy Upton, who is Children's Dietitian on Instagram. Read some of their resources about children that are slow to solids, although to be honest, 12-month-olds often are a little bit slow to solids. That's not necessarily unusual.

But maybe get some extra help with solid food first, because I would want to focus on what's happening with solid food. Because ni- A, night weaning a 12-month-old is really, really, really difficult. Doesn't always mean that you're going to get sleep, because they can still be very hungry and distressed, but it may also not solve your problem, which is wanting them to eat more food in the day.

If they're not taking a bottle and you don't want to breastfeed at night, you have every right as a parent to stop breastfeeding entirely at this age and not want to breastfeed at night, but they may need a cup of milk at night, or they may need to drink from a cup, because as I said, they may still ne- need milk at night.

So if they don't take a bottle, that's not the end of the world. There are loads of great products out there that are cups that you can offer instead. Um, if you want someone else to care for them at night and offer a bottle or, sorry, a cup, that's absolutely an option. But I wouldn't be rushing in to night weaning this 12-month-old until we've worked out what's happening with food in the day.

And the idea that appetite is the main driver to solid food intake is, is a myth. Um, there's a lot more that goes on. Um, so you might want to partially night wean and see what happens. You might want to have a go at, um, having slightly longer blocks between feeds and see what happens, but I'm not gonna pretend that's easy at 12 months because they don't understand what's happening.

There's lots of strong feelings, even at 12 months. You're gonna, again, you're gonna have to habit stack. You're gonna have to offer alternative forms of soothing and comfort. If they wake up again an hour later, they genuinely were hungry, um, and they may need some milk. So full night weaning at this age isn't always possible, and that's the bit where I say it might not be good news.

Um, is there anything you'd add to that? 

[00:34:18] Carly Facius: Just around the introduction of a bottle, and that at 12 months, do we really want to even be bothering with introducing a bottle? And like you said, there's open cups, straw cups, there's lots of other alternatives that- Are going to be a useful skill that the child can use moving forward rather than a bottle.

And that there is a lot of discussion out there that if a child isn't eating, then let's reduce breastfeeding, and then they might eat more solid food when most of the time that isn't what happens. So I think it is definitely worth being cautious around, um, and looking at what food, yeah, what is their relationship with food?

Is there pressure around eating solid food? Are you feeling pressured because you do want to night wean, but you need the solid foods to increase in order to feel comfortable to do that? So just really looking at like, yeah, what, what are you bringing to the table literally, um, when it comes to eating food with this child.

[00:35:21] Emma Pickett: Okay, next question says, "My little person is 16 months old. I'm changing jobs, and I won't be able to put him down for bedtime. Should I night wean? He doesn't really breastfeed during the day, but he is all night long at night." 

[00:35:36] Carly Facius: Do you wanna night wean? So whether you put him down for bedtime is kind of separate from whether you want to feed at night, and so it's really like, do you want to be feeding him at night?

It's really up to you around how it feels because the job change and the different person putting him to bed is separate from feeding at night. So I would be curious about how you feel about that. That's probably my shortest answer. 

[00:36:10] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. So I think underlying that, there's something about if I don't breastfeed at night, is it gonna be easier for the other person to put them down for bedtime?

Should I night wean to make it easier for the other carer? I, I'm sort of reading into that question. 

[00:36:24] Carly Facius: Mm-hmm. And 

[00:36:25] Emma Pickett: I think we kind of connected to that earlier on in our questions, that actually someone else can put your child down at bedtime, and that doesn't mean you have to change what you do in your breastfeeding patterns.

You can still breastfeed when you're with your child. You can still breastfeed at night. You can still breastfeed on the nights when you are around. You don't have to take away your ability to feed to sleep for someone else to have parenting skills. It doesn't elevate someone else's skills for you to take that away.

The other person who's gonna be putting him down, they're gonna have to develop their own methods, their own regulation methods, their own thing, their own trick, their own associations, and that's completely separate from what you do. Lots of people think, "Oh, it'll make it easier for my child if I night wean", but you'll lo- that ch- child is gonna miss out on a heck of a lot.

They're losing a lot, um, you know, by taking breastfeeding out of the story, you know, in terms of health, in terms of connection, in terms of, um, you know, we could spend hours talking about immunological benefits, et cetera, et cetera, and benefits for your health as well, continuing to breastfeed. Do you want to stop breastfeeding because you don't want to be feeding at night because you're gonna be extra tired with your new job?

That's a separate story. If you're thinking that you should end breastfeeding just to help someone else do childcare, that's not a reason to end breastfeeding, which is pr- pretty much what you just said as well. Okay, next question. 'How do you get them to sleep without a feed on the boob? We're at seven months, so I feel we're a long way off, but it's something I'd like to have a plan for.'

Okay, so I'm gonna be super blooming honest with this answer. You're thinking way ahead of yourself. Your seven-month-old child is gonna be so different when they're 10 months, and when they're 12 months, and when they're 14 months. You just don't have to think about this now. You know, if you told me, "I've got to wean at nine months.

I've got to start m- a medication. I don't want to be breastfeeding beyond 12 months. I've got to stop this now," I'd answer this question in a different way. But if you're telling me, "We're a long way off, but I kind of feel like I should be knowing how to f- put them to sleep without the boob," I would want you to question that because I think you've absorbed some of these anti-breastfeeding prejudices that exist in our society, that children shouldn't fall asleep on the breast, and breastfeeding to sleep is bad and a bad habit, and, and the good little babies are the ones that fall asleep having been awake in their cot gurgling away, and you've left the room.

And no, I'm sorry. Breastfeeding to sleep is the biological norm. It's a flipping great tool. Do not take that out of your tool belt unless you have to. You know, the idea that if I train them now to not feed to sleep, t- you know, to not feed to sleep on the breast, life is gonna be easier at 11 months. No, you've got a different baby at 11 months.

So don't take this tool out of your tool belt until you need to. Feeding a s- ch- seven-month-old to sleep is one of the universe's greatest gifts to a parent. Um, you're giving them the sedatives. They are dropping to sleep. You're having an evening. They're beautifully regulated. It works. It's fantastic.

Don't stop doing that unless you have to, and certainly don't stop doing that because you fear that if you don't stop now, life's gonna be harder later on. When you need to change it, you can change it. Um, but seven months, gosh, that's little. I've got pots of jam in my fridge that are older than seven months.

So, so if you're not gonna be ending breastfeeding imminently, please don't put pressure on yourself to take that tool out of your tool belt. What a loss that will be. It'll take longer to get him to sleep, or her. It'll ... You know, you'll, you'll potentially be more dysregulated. It's gonna be harder to catch them r- at the right moment.

This is a ... It's such a gift to be able to s- feed them to sleep at this point. Don't change it unless you have to. The day that you need to, yes, you can do habit stacking, yes, you can create new associations, yes, you can start taking them off the breast, but you're so far away from that, I wouldn't worry about it just now.

And I pro- apologize if that seems dismissive of you, and I, and I've kind of been a bit cheeky, but I just want you to understand that it's such a wonderful thing to be able to breastfeed a baby to sleep, and the idea that you shouldn't be doing it, I just don't want you to absorb some of that messaging, which I'm worried that you may have.

What would you add to that? I've been a bit cheeky in that, um, response. What would you add to that? 

[00:40:36] Carly Facius: Um, I would encourage this mother to enjoy where she's at, and to be as present as possible, because they grow so fast, and there'll be times in the future where you would be really grateful to be able to breastfeed your child to sleep, um, because it's quick and easy and lovely.

So just really being in the present moment, and knowing that when the time comes, when it is the right time to stop feeding to sleep, you can absolutely do that, and your child will be able to do that. 

[00:41:09] Emma Pickett: Okay. Yeah, cool. Okay, so we've got two questions left. Some of the questions that I haven't answered, I haven't answered because they were repeating previous questions.

So someone, uh, we had the question about permanently being on and sucking throughout the night, and someone else asked a very, very similar question. Someone else asked a question about weaning when you have another young child still feeding. So I haven't answered those 'cause I think we've covered them already.

But these two final questions, um, I'm actually gonna make a choice to flip them because I think you're the better person to answer the one that's more connected to kind of parenting mentor stuff. So I'm going to do this question for you next. 'How do you manage boundaries with a very determined and strong-willed toddler?

I'm planning to n- natural term wean, but just put some boundaries in place as they're on 24/7. We're also co-sleeping. I have made some consistent efforts to explain that my body needs a rest while validating their feelings, but this results in hitting, biting, kicking, along with self-hitting, and trying to give other forms of comfort won't cut it.'

Mm. Okay, so that's a big one for you, but with your parenting mentor hat on, how would you talk to this parent? 

[00:42:20] Carly Facius: I would let them know that that isn't unusual behavior for their child. So the, the kicking, the pushing back, the aggressive behavior when a limit is set is not uncommon, and there's nothing wrong with her child, and there's nothing wrong with the way that she is parenting this child.

And it can be really uncomfortable when you put these limits in, and particularly when you've been a yes mama, which most, many mothers in the attachment parenting world have been. It's been yes, yes, yes, yes, yes And so for these little people, there hasn't been any boundaries put in around breastfeeding.

So when we do start to set boundaries, it makes sense that there is a lot of pushback, that there's a lot of feelings around it. And there's so many emotions tied up for these little people. There's the loss of control, there's the grief and the loss, and the frustration and the anger and the disappointment.

There's a whole gamut of emotions that are there when you say no. And so I would really encourage this mother to feel into how it feels to say no, and how she's able to be confident and strong in that no. And if it feels uncertain or unwavering, is it better to wait until there is more clarity around those boundaries?

Because often when we do put a boundary in but it isn't something that we're willing to follow through with, um, children can sense that, and then it might be more tricky to hold that. So I would really be encouraging some clarity around what is she willing to sit with and not with. Obviously, the kicking and the aggressive behavior, that is, uh, another opportunity to set a limit, and so really just using language that is going to acknowledge the feelings that the child has.

So we're saying yes to the feelings, but no to the behavior. So you're saying like, "I can see that you're really frustrated when you don't have boob. I'm not willing for you to kick me," and being very clear with those boundaries. So there's two different tools that we're looking at. So there's the in-the-moment tools, so when the child is expressing those behaviors, and that's when you're putting in the limit and holding space for the feelings.

Or there's the preemptive tools, so they're in between, and that's when we would be coming in with the games and the play, and this is a perfect example for a power reversal game. You're putting in a limit and saying, "This child isn't allowed to have the feed," and bringing in some games where they get to be the boss, they get to be in control, they get to p- power over you.

They're the one who's more stronger, more powerful. So I spoke about some examples in the last episode, but I'll just touch on a few again now around Playing chasey and they always catch you. Um, pillow fighting and they always knock you over. Um, wres- wrestling and they always win. Being the teacher and you're the student, or they're the nurse and you're the patient, they're the adult and you're the child, so you're flipping, flipping the roles.

So if you bring in these power reversal games throughout the day, and this is not when your child is in those big feelings, this is just throughout the day, that can just really help to support them to move through these big changes. And you might find that actually when you do put the limits in, you're not gonna get such a big response.

[00:46:21] Emma Pickett: Can I ask you a bit more about the in-the-moment reaction? Mm-hmm. Because we see lots of little videos on Instagram of, you know, behavioral experts modeling what you do. So your child has hit you- 

[00:46:32] Carly Facius: Mm-hmm ... 

[00:46:33] Emma Pickett: and what we sometimes see are videos of people going, "No, no, don't hit me, no." And, and I think a- and people in this kind of gentle parenting space don't know necessarily how to be firm in a way that doesn't kind of give them PTSD from their awful 20th century parenting experiences.

Mm-hmm. So, so how would you say that you would recommend, and I don't want you to give a script, 'cause it's never about a script- Mm ... but if a little person has hit you, punched you, what would you hope to see as a response in that moment? 

[00:47:02] Carly Facius: So, like I said, acknowledging the feelings, saying, "Yes, the feelings are welcome.

It's okay that you're frustrated. It's okay that you're sad, you're angry, all of the feelings that are coming up around the limit. It's not okay to hit me. It's not okay to kick me." So you can say that in your own words, and then just sitting in it and being with it, and seeing what happens. Okay. Because often what happens is they will do these behaviors, and then that may often, the aggressive behaviors or the anger or the frustration then may move into tears.

So you see these big expressions where they might rage or they might kind of stomp around or push or kick or throw something, and when you just let them know that, like, "It's okay to have your feelings, it's not okay to damage things or hit me or hurt me, but I'm here to listen to whatever you've got to say", often that acknowledgement and that permission just helps them move from, they call it mad to sad.

You know, they move from tho- that raging, those raging feelings into sadness, and that's when they will often then come in and wanna cuddle and be with you Does that answer your question? Yeah, 

[00:48:16] Emma Pickett: no, that's, that's helpful. So we're talking about, so not, I'm not gonna let you hit me, and I'm also gonna restrain you if you hit me.

I'm actually gonna hold your hand, I'm gonna hold your leg because it's not okay to hit me and you're not allowed to hit me. That's that sort of phrasing maybe. And then this is, this is I'm really putting you on the spot here, but for t- the two cents for anyone who's not looked into behavioral stuff, why would we then not put a toddler on a timeout step?

Why would we not then punish that behavior? 

[00:48:44] Carly Facius: Because we're shaming them for having feelings, and we want all humans to know that it's okay to have feelings and that, you know, it's okay to express your feelings. And also isolating a child just makes them feel less connected, brings up more feelings, makes it more difficult for them to actually bring their feelings to you, and it doesn't change the behavior.

So- 

[00:49:10] Emma Pickett: No ... 

[00:49:11] Carly Facius: that isolation or the punishment, it doesn't change the behavior. 

[00:49:14] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Because that behavior wasn't a conscious choice at this age. No. When they're dysregulated, that's something that comes from an uncontrolled place, and you can't teach someone out of being dysregulated at a, a young age. Um, yeah, s- you still, I mean, it's not so much now, but occasionally you still hear people talking about punishing and timeouts and taking things away and, and it's just, it's just parents who really are struggling to know how to- 

[00:49:38] Carly Facius: Yeah

[00:49:38] Emma Pickett: talk to little people and what's normal for little people. Yeah. 

[00:49:41] Carly Facius: I always encourage parents to try to put themselves in the child's shoes. And so, you know, if you had been given this one food for every day for however many, you know, years, and then all of a sudden you weren't able to have it, like what kind of emotions can you imagine coming up?

So just really being as compassionate and understanding to the child's emotions, and know that actually like they don't want to be kicking you or hurting you or, you know, hitting their baby brother or throwing things. Like that's not who they are. That's not what they wanna be doing. They are in a state of, you know, activation and they're not actually able to control their impulses.

And we talk about children not being able to control their impulses, most adults can't either, you know? We, we are often still all learning how to do that, so I think we often have very high expectations of young children that aren't developmentally appropriate. So I think- Yeah ... we need to kind of like let go a little bit of what we expect them to be able to manage when there's these big emotions coming up.

[00:50:47] Emma Pickett: For sure. Thank you. Okay, last question. Well done for getting this far. Last question says, "I'm currently breastfeeding my toddler. He's still having a long feed before bed and almost going to sleep on the boob, but I take him off before he reaches deep sleep, and he'll usually talk himself to sleep in his cot.

He then wakes up in the night, and I breastfeed him back to sleep again. My question was around the best way to wean in this situation." Okay. So- So this is a family who aren't co-sleeping. Sounds like there's a cot happening. Um, sounds like they've done a brilliant job with that bedtime feed, and the fact that he's lying in his cot and talking himself to sleep is fantastic.

Um, you know, he's obviously really regulated and feeling really secure. I might suggest that this person, even though they don't want to co-sleep, and they're not, that's not their plan, maybe bring a little mattress next to the cot, so at night they have the option to be in the room and talk to them and give comfort without necessarily breastfeeding to sleep.

Um, so they can go into the room, talk to him, say hello, lie down on the little mattress next to the cot, be physically close, but not necessarily take him out and not necessarily feed. Let's see if maybe you can settle him just by being nearby. The reason I talk about the mattress on the floor is if you stand over a child in a cot, they're gonna stand up to come to you.

If you lie down at, at floor level, they will lie down to hear you and talk to you and be close to you. So you might then breastfeed a little bit at night, and then put him back in the cot again, as you do at bedtime, get him used to going back in the cot again. Rather than feeding him into a deep sleep state and putting him back in the cot in a deep sleep state, let's get him used to going back into the cot awake, and then you lie down on the mattress close to him and talk to him until he falls asleep.

And then gradually that feed will get shorter and shorter until hopefully you can just go in, lie down straight away, and your presence will reassure him. So essentially it's a form of habit stacking, and the habit stacking is you being close, talking, lying next to him. If he gets really, really, really distressed, you might take him out of the cot and cuddle him on the mattress near the cot, and then put him back in again awake.

But basically, this person knows what they're doing. They're doing it at bedtime. All you have to do is bring that skill into the night, and I think you're gonna be in a, in a great place. So I think you know what you're doing. You don't need us to tell you. You've got that method at bedtime, and you just need to extend it into what you're doing at nighttime as well.

But as I said, maybe with the mattress tool so you're not having to put him back in asleep, and your only options are holding him or he's in the cot asleep. You've got that option of lying nearby him as well. Is there anything you'd add to that? 

[00:53:19] Carly Facius: Um, just if perhaps they might like to enlist a partner, if there's a partner or a support person, if they're wanting to transition completely away, um, sometimes that can be a good idea.

[00:53:33] Emma Pickett: Thank you. Thank you so much for your time today, Carly, especially as it's early for me and late for you. Um, I really, really appreciate your generosity with your time. We'll make sure we put your account in the show notes so people can find you because you're such a valuable person to talk about The end of breastfeeding or any aspect of breastfeeding challenges and parenting challenges.

I think parenting mentors, we need more of them because it's, this is hard stuff. This is difficult. It's not easy parenting little people and, and caring about everyone in the whole family. Um, so thank you so much for your time. Is there anything we haven't mentioned today or anything you're thinking about and you've got second thoughts about, or are you good to go?

[00:54:10] Carly Facius: No, I think it's great. Thank you so much for having me. It's great to chat these two hours of power. Um, it's 6:00 PM for me, so my brain capacity is on the end, getting to the end of the day. But yeah, thank you so much. It's been really great. 

[00:54:26] Emma Pickett: Thanks for your time. Really appreciate it, and I'll, I'll try not to hassle you again too soon.

I'll give you, I'll give you ... Thank you.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett IBCLC and on Twitter at Makes Milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist, and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.