Weaning and natural term breastfeeding Q&A with Carly from Seedpod Part 1

This week, we have the return of the brilliant Carly Facius, Midwife, IBCLC, Women's Circle Facilitator and Aware Parenting Mentor. She’s joining me to answer your questions about weaning and natural term breastfeeding in two back-to-back episodes. This is Part 1.

We delve into question topics ranging from weaning a toddler while tandem feeding, coping with a distressed child at night, and what normal sleep even is! 

To find a list of questions, please consult the transcript of this episode.

You can find out more about Carly at www.seedpodfamilies.com or follow her on Instagram @‌seed_pod_

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, by going to https://bit.ly/JKPbooks and using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

Questions are in bold.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining us for today's episode. As you'll have seen from the title, I'm again being joined by the fantastic Carly, and we're gonna be answering your questions on natural term breastfeeding and ending breastfeeding. Carly, at the risk of sounding like a game show host, can you introduce yourself?

Tell us who you are and where you're from and what do you do for a living? Carly, 

[00:01:08] Carly Facius: I love that question. I'm happy to introduce myself. Um, I'm Carly and I'm currently based in Fremantle in Western Australia. And I'm a registered midwife and, uh, I, B, C or c and a parenting mentor. And I've actually just started studying to be a family therapist.

So to wrap it all up together, 

[00:01:33] Emma Pickett: yeah, you are ticking all the boxes. So a, a mentor, a parenting mentor who's also an IBCC and a midwife and a family therapist. You, you're gonna be that the holy grail. We're gonna follow you around. Um, 'cause that sounds super useful and that that absolutely fits with what I know of you.

How. How very much person centered you are and how much you want to come up with solutions that work for families on all sorts of different levels. Um, so that, that, yeah, that fits your mo. Good luck with that. So we did a mega episode before, if I remember it was, it was broken into two episodes. I have a gut feeling that this one also may end up being broken into two episodes.

We've had dozens and dozens of questions, and we may not get to all of them, so a huge apologies if we run out of time, but we'll do our very, very best to answer as many as possible. Um, are you ready? Should we get stuck in? How about we do what we did last time where we alternate who starts answering the question and then the second person chips in?

Does that sound good? Yeah. So question number one. I've started with a nice simple one. I just found you on social media, so pardon me if this is very basic, but what do you mean by natural term breastfeeding? 

So, natural term breastfeeding for me, and by the way, there isn't a universal definition of this, so there isn't really a right or wrong answer.But natural term breastfeeding for me just means somebody who is breastfeeding for as long as humans are designed to breastfeed. And that is almost certainly beyond infancy, um, into toddler years and beyond. Now that word natural is a bit controversial in the parenting and breastfeeding and birthing world, and it obviously isn't comfortable for lots of people.

But I think in this context it is helpful because it reminds us that continuing to breastfeed beyond babyhood is not extended. It is not abnormal. That word extended suggests you are going beyond the norm, which is not the case at all. If you look at the D data and look at Kathy Detweiler's essay, we're talking about probably two and a half to seven years being the standard age for breastfeeding a human being.

So natural term breastfeeding just reminds us that we are as a species, designed to breastfeed beyond infancy. If we want to stop before then, we have every right to do that. Of course. We will support you to do that. Um, but if we didn't do anything, little people would probably wean themselves before the age of seven-ish.

And one of the reasons I use that term is because there was a piece of research in 2020 by Thompson Etal. Um, they spoke to lots of people who are breastfeeding of beyond infancy. And in that research it said that the term natural term breastfeeding was what lots of parents identified with that they liked that term.

So that's one of the reasons I use it because of that research. But also I, I reject the idea of extended breastfeeding as a valid phrase. So that's my 10 cents. What about you, Carly? 

[00:04:13] Carly Facius: Yeah, I absolutely agree particularly around extended because it implies that that's beyond the norm. I also feel like when we try to define things for others, it moves into some risky territory.

Because what's right for one breastfeeding diet is not necessarily going to be right for another. So I think that it's so individual and obviously if. People are planning to breastfeed for two years, five years, seven years, that's entirely up to them. And they don't need a definition to do what feels right.

[00:04:48] Emma Pickett: Yeah, absolutely. Right. And I'd also say some people use the term natural term breastfeeding, to mean it is always child led and it it, it always ends in self weaning. That's not something I embrace because I actually think that parent-led weaning is also natural. A bit controversial maybe, but certainly in the mammal world, you know, mummy tigers will be pushing baby tigers off them at some point.

And actually I think parent-led weaning and listening to our gut feeling and listening to feelings of aversion or discomfort is part of that natural process. So I actually don't think that we should elevate child-led weaning or self weaning as the only way of doing things if you're doing it right in adverted commas.

Because we are part of this partnership, we matter too. And if we want to breastfeeding, I also consider that natural. Are you comfortable with me saying that?

[00:05:37] Carly Facius: Absolutely. It's a partnership. So even if the waiting process is initiated by the child or parent, it's still done in partnership with the other one.

And I think there's never really going to be a situation that's entirely child led. I mean, I don't wanna say never. It's probably unusual for there to be a situation where it's entirely child led because there's so many different dynamics that come into play that are going to impact the child's choices around potentially not wanting to breastfeed.

And some of those might not be so obvious, and maybe we ourselves aren't even quite sure of what they are. But you know, the emotions underneath or the energetics of it all, there's a lot of different things that are gonna contribute to that. 

[00:06:20] Emma Pickett: Yeah. One of the things that I've definitely come to realize is that pure in Adverted child led weaning isn't actually what we see in society.

Even the people who are passionate, passionate, breastfeeding advocates who want to be very child led. We're still giving our children food. We're still giving them cups. We're still going out the house, we're going off, you know, we're going to work, we're meeting our friends. You know, we might even sleep in separate spaces.

I mean, technically, pure child-led weaning would have to be living in some kind of oasis with food just lying around, waiting for toddlers to pick up food and feed themselves if they wanted to. But if they didn't want to, they'd just carry on breastfeeding. But we know we put children in high chairs, we put food in front of them, we give them cups.

You know, we adjust things as we go along. We put boundaries in place. We say, not right now, sweetie. That's, that is all part of this process. Okay. I have a horrible feeling we could spend an hour on this one question. So let's force ourselves to go onto question number two. So you are gonna read this one first.

You're gonna answer this one first, but do you want me to read it out to you or do you want to read it? 

[00:07:17] Carly Facius: I'd like you to read it. Thanks. 

[00:07:19] Emma Pickett: Okay. So question number two says, what about pacifiers? Now we might say dummies in, in the uk, I dunno what you say, Inmy. Okay. So should we wean off them at the same time as night weaning off the breast to break the sucking to sleep association?

Or is this removing all comforts at the same time? I often finish a breastfeed and immediately give the pacifier as this ensures a fast continuing of sleep for everyone and allows me to keep feeds relatively short. And they talk about how they've got sensitive nipples. I imagine going through the weaning process twice would suck.

Um, but what, what should they do if they want to not wean, but they've also got pacifiers in the story? What would you suggest? 

[00:07:59] Carly Facius: Yeah, I mean, I agree going through the weaning process twice would be difficult. So if there's a way to bring it together, it's going to be more helpful. And I wonder if as they start to introduce more limits around feeding, there's obviously gonna be more feelings around those boundaries that are put in.

And part of that limit could be the shortened feed and the, the dummy doesn't get given after the feed, um, because it's kind of like one or the other. So like she said, if it's doing one first and then having to do the other, it really kind of makes sense to be able to talk about that. Actually, we are going to stop doing this at the same time.

Yeah. Does it say how old the child is? 

[00:08:47] Emma Pickett: 17 months. 17. Oh, actually, hang on. They, she, she says she started to have sensitive nipples at around 17 months. So we know the child is older than 17 months. So I'm gonna present a, a separate idea. I actually think it's okay to not do both at the same time. And I actually think it's okay to wean them separately because I guess we don't really know how desperate this person is to in breastfeeding.

But I think if you've got a tool that works and that regulates that child and the dummy is something that is going to mean that ending breastfeeding is relatively painless and the ending breastfeeding process is gonna be quite quick. 

[00:09:21] Carly Facius: Mm-hmm. 

[00:09:22] Emma Pickett: I'd be tempted to say lean into that. Use the dummy as your tool.

Use that to help end the breastfeeding. And yes, you are gonna be doing this process twice, but I suspect getting rid of the dummy is going to be easier for you emotionally because you're not having to worry about pain and shallow latch and, um, breastfeeding aversion and, you know, the breastfeeding complications.

And most people I find, don't have a dummy if they're breastfeeding responsibly at this age, most people are the dummy. Um, essentially. So I wouldn't say this is a common scenario. So I can see why this person's asking this question 'cause it's gonna be difficult to find information on this. But actually lots of people end up weaning twice as it were.

You know, they replace the breastfeeding with rocking or they replace the breastfeeding with co-sleeping in a way they maybe didn't want to do in the longer term. And then they, they got to move the child into their own room. So I think it's quite common to have two sets of weaning. And I think that can be okay.

Hmm. I think it depends a lot on the nature of the child. If, if taking that pacifier away, the child's still gonna be relatively regulated and calm. You absolutely can do both at once, but I wouldn't feel the pressure to do both at once. 

[00:10:26] Carly Facius: Hmm. I think it depends on how much capacity the mother has to be with the feelings that might arise.

And if, 

[00:10:34] Emma Pickett: yeah. Yeah. 

[00:10:35] Carly Facius: Ending the feeding, that was going to bring up a lot of feelings and being able to be with that to a certain extent and then offering the dummy as, you know, the alternative is likely going to make it more useful for her. 

[00:10:48] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think that's the nub in of it, isn't it?

It's all about the parents' capacity. What do they feel they can handle and, and how do they feel about their child dysregulation? For sure. Um, okay, let's look at the next question is a really interesting one. It's kind of goes quite deep. Um, as a, as a trainee therapist, I'd be interested to hear your ideas around this.

I've been wondering about something. How many of us are still fee feeding older children because it's easier to ignore our own bodies and boundaries rather than upset someone we love. I know as a serial people pleaser that despite wanting to stop now I can't bring myself to rock the boat. Yeah, that was, that one I think is really interesting.

Um, so this is my turn to go first. I think that, I think they're onto something here. I think as a society we quite often praise mothers that don't put themselves first. We elevate parents that are very sacrificial and, and don't look after ourselves. Um, I think we've got lots of issues at the moment with people re correcting what was happening in the 20th century.

So moving into attachment, parenting and gentle parenting. To break cycles to overcorrect, possibly the lack of emotional parenting that they might receive themselves in the 20th century. And that sometimes meant, I think that people are struggling to find that balance between their own needs and their child's needs.

And I certainly meet a heck of a lot of people breastfeeding older children who are not looking after themselves. But actually, to be honest, there are also people not breastfeeding who are also parenting without looking after themselves and sacrificing themselves and, and not caring about themselves.

Yeah, I mean, I think if you are in a place where you're frightened of your child's negative feelings and you see that your child's sadness is a failure and that you have to fix that, um, you are gonna end up breastfeeding beyond the point you want to. Um, and I think, yeah, I, I think this person's right. I, I definitely think there are some people continuing to breastfeed beyond the point they want to, um, because they're scared of, of that negative reaction, and they're scared of the child being sad, and they're, they're scared of feeling selfish and feeling as though they're putting themselves first.

I think that's a, a big issue. Tell me what you feel. 

[00:12:59] Carly Facius: Hmm. I agree with all of that, and I love this question, and I think it's so true that we have swung so far the other way that many mothers are being martyrs and that they will always prioritize their children over themselves. And it can be incredibly difficult to put themselves first.

And I think this is a really insightful question, and it definitely creates space for having those conversations. Like, how does it feel to say no to your child? And how does it feel to disappoint somebody that you love? And how does it feel when you know somebody wants something that you have or that you could give and you are not going to give them that?

And how does it feel to choose yourself? How does it feel to honor your own needs and your own boundaries? Because. This happens. This is quite a common thing, like you said, particularly in the attachment parenting world where women really hand over themselves and their bodies to their children because they feel like that is what is absolutely needed.

But it seems to only go for so long until they get to this place of being depleted and exhausted and actually a little bit resentful or not really enjoying motherhood in the same way that they would because they haven't been able to take care of themselves. So I feel like it's a really good opportunity to explore around, yeah, how can you find a way to meet both of your needs and how can you.

Find a more democratic approach because it does exist. There is a way where you can have these conversations with a, particularly a toddler or an older child about what the breastfeeding relationship's gonna look like for both of you and kind of come to a middle ground or a compromise. So I think there's a lot in there.

And definitely many, you know, many women in particular are recovering people pleasers, or we've been conditioned to say yes, even though we are overriding what we actually know is a no for us. And I think that's what this person's touched on, that there are times when it is a no, but she's overriding that.

So it'd be interesting to dig a bit deeper and know, yeah, why and how can you take care of your own needs and honor that your no. 

[00:15:27] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, one thing I think I, I often think in this situation is we can't switch off somebody's people pleasing. That's not something you can be, can be clicked with a switch and oh, you're fixed now.

You're not a people pleaser. That is so deep and so cultural and so inherent for so many people. But sometimes we can actually frame it as what happens if you continue breastfeeding unhappily with feelings of resentment? What impact does that have on the child that you want to center and be sacrificial to?

And people please, because actually that child may end up suffering more, potentially if they start to sense your resentment if they pick up on your micro expressions and actually putting boundaries in place and even ending breastfeeding is a really wonderful parenting opportunity to model empathy, to talk about body autonomy.

To talk about issues around consent to model, looking after yourself is actually a really, really positive experience for your child. So even if you want to frame ending breastfeeding in a kind of centering your child, people pleasing way, that even that is possible. Um, but yeah, as you say, deep, deep stuff going on there.

Um, and a great question. Okay, next one. This is one for you to start with. You ready? 

[00:16:36] Carly Facius: Mm-hmm. 

[00:16:37] Emma Pickett: I'm trying to wean my three and a half year old while continuing to feed my one and a half year old. It's up and down two steps forward. One step backwards. I've been offering gold stars as rewards and then going to buy her a big toy.

Is that a bad way to do it? I've been reading Jessie's Milky and Booby Moon and talking about it and trying to be gentle and holding boundaries. I've managed to cut down to bedtime in morning, but I feel so bad taking it away from her while continuing to feed her sister and then bribing her with a toy.

I am actually trying for another child, so that's one of the reasons I want to wean, but also that brings up some extra guilt. Okay, so we've got the stuff about the toy and, and gold stars and toy, and then we've got the stuff about weaning when there's also younger child weaning. What, what's your response to that?

[00:17:21] Carly Facius: Yeah, there's a lot in there and I really like that she acknowledged the two steps forward, one step back because we all know that weaning is not linear and that that's what it looks like for most people. So knowing that it's not going to be a straight line and that things might go round and round and side to side.

Um, I would be curious about why she feels so guilty around feeding her the youngest child and not the oldest child because that child is three and a half and you know, sounds like has had a great breastfeeding journey. So that younger child is one and a half plus. She is wanting to have another child.

So a bit of. Exploration into like, why does that feel so hard? Is it, you know, because it is her first child and that she's ending the breastfeeding relationship for the first time. So there's a lot of feelings coming up around shifting dynamics within the family, and obviously energy and her physical body and her breast milk is then being moved more focused on the younger child as well as preparing for another baby.

The part around rewards that can be really tricky because obviously we're wanting to give children really factual information and we're also wanting to be kind of clear about what's happening. So understanding that actually them ending breastfeeding is not, they're not getting rewarded for not having feeds that day.

It's actually more around that the milk is for the younger child and for the. The her body that is going to be preparing for the next baby. So giving her the, giving the older child that information, and at three and a half she's very able to understand a lot of that. 

[00:19:16] Emma Pickett: Would you talk about wanting to conceive again?

I'm not sure that's something I would necessarily talk to the child, to the, yeah. I'm just thinking if you're three and a half and mommy says, by the way, I'm having another baby. This is one of the reasons we're ending breastfeeding. I wonder if that's an extra layer. I'm just challenging you a little bit there to see what you mean, but you, it sounds like you're being very transparent and very, very honest and very open with that child.

And some children will absolutely lean into that, but maybe it might be a bit too much for some three and a half year olds. Um, 

[00:19:45] Carly Facius: yeah. 

[00:19:46] Emma Pickett: But I totally respect what you're saying about truth. We want to be truth and we want to be authentic. Mm-hmm. As much as possible. It sounds as though this person hasn't quite given themselves permission to wean the older child.

Sorry, I kind of interrupted you there. That's 

[00:20:00] Carly Facius: okay. 

[00:20:00] Emma Pickett: What were you, what else were you gonna say? 

[00:20:03] Carly Facius: Um, I was, yeah, more curious around the, the rewards and the gifts and if there was some feelings of guilt around the ending, the weaning, and if that's something that could be explored a little bit around, like you said, giving herself permission and acknowledging this huge amount of work that she's done and what are the other ways that they can enjoy this beautiful connection together without breastfeeding.

So looking at things that they can do to connect and potentially bring some play into it. So bringing play into it with the older daughter. So that she has this special time with her mom that is different from breastfeeding. 

[00:20:45] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Don't, don't worry about the ding dings happen to all of us. Um, yeah.

So, I mean, you're right. We've gotta find something else to fill that gap, haven't we? I mean, it's one, one of the things that comes across to me is that the mom is sort of scrambling around a little bit because she hasn't quite worked out that she's got permission to do this. She hasn't quite worked out, and she's almost hoping that the three and a half year old will want to end breastfeeding.

And that's one of the things that rewards and, and the toys are about. She's wanting to give the child motivation to end breastfeeding when actually the child has the right to be sad and feel a sense of bereavement and loss. And rather than you are a good girl for not breastfeeding, it's okay to say, I know this is really hard and I'm so sorry.

And this is why things are changing, because mommy's body's getting tired and we need to say goodbye to mommy making milk for you. And I'm so sorry about that. And, and actually leaning into that sense of loss rather than being jolly and buying toys and focusing on the happiness, actually leaning into the sadness.

Um, and one of the things that I've talked about in other episodes on tandem feeding, we might have even talked about this in our last episode. Children at three and a half are really into the concept of fairness. When that child was one and a half, they press fed by themselves all the time. No sharing.

They had their turn and, and now it's someone else's turn. And so I, I'm really encouraging people to show photographs of when the older child was a baby, remind them of their own breastfeeding experience, even literally count how many weeks they breastfed for and all the time that they had milk by themselves and now it's time for their, their sister or brother to have milk by themselves, but not shying away from the sad feelings and actually letting that sadness be part of the story.

But I think the first step is that mom giving herself permission to end breastfeeding and not feeling guilt. She has absolutely every right to end breastfeeding the older child and should feel so proud of, of what she's done. 

[00:22:34] Carly Facius: Mm, absolutely. 

[00:22:36] Emma Pickett: So I know, I know it sounds a bit judgy, but I'm always a bit nervous about the reward chart thing because it's a bit like saying we're gonna do a re reward chart for when you stop being sad about your dog has died.

Um, you know, we're gonna chivia along the morning process and every time you have a day without being sad about the dog dying, I'll give you a gold star. It's sort of missing out the point that there is gonna be some genuine loss here and we don't reward children for not showing feelings and we don't reward children for not struggling.

[00:23:03] Carly Facius: Exactly. And really rewards. We've moved away from rewards a lot because they're not actually giving us the longer term outcomes that we are wanting as parents. So, 

[00:23:14] Emma Pickett: yeah. Yeah. 

[00:23:14] Carly Facius: Even, even if it feels work, like it works in the short term, it's not necessarily gonna be helpful long term. 

[00:23:20] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And you, you'll look, have to do a reward for the next thing and the next thing, the next thing.

And actually we want that internal motivation. We want the child to hear what you're saying and understand on some level, and have those internal motivations rather than external motivations. But gosh, the fact that she has gone down the road of stars and toys tells us how desperate she is and how much she does want to end breastfeeding and, and, and, yeah.

So absolutely don't feel badly about that. You have every right to end it. Give yourself permission and move forward with honesty. Okay, next question says, we are approaching 18 months and we see no end of the tunnel. How do we start while protecting a mom who's sensitive to hormonal change and a baby seeking comfort?

I'm a busy mom of three working full-time. I've lost track of who's answering this question first. 

[00:24:06] Carly Facius: Um, this is you. 

[00:24:07] Emma Pickett: Okay. How do we start? I'm guessing she means how do we start the weaning process? Well, first of all, breastfeeding an 18 month old while working full time, busy mom of three blooming heck.

What, what a champion this person is? What, what an achievement that is something to be incredibly proud of. It's gonna depend how often that child's feeding. It's gonna depend on what's the bit that bothers you the most. So if we're saying, how do we start? I'd say, okay, well tell me out of 24 hours, which bit of breastfeeding bothers you the most?

Which bit of breastfeeding is the hardest? If I could ma wave a magic wand and disappear one of the feeds, what's the feed you you'd like to disappear? 'cause why don't we start with that? Why don't we start with the one that bothers you the most? If it's gonna be night weaning and you are busy working full time, we may need to look at your schedule and work out when you've got a bit of leave happening, or when you've got a few days, you can really lean into the night weaning or a slightly lighter schedule at work.

But really it's about what's bothering you. And the answer at 18 months is going to be about filling the holes with other things. So it's not holding boundaries and saying, no, it's actually avoiding the request coming in the first place. Why is this child asking? And can you nip a request in the bud by meeting those needs in a different way?

So it wouldn't surprise me if this 18 month old is asking for feeds because that's the one time they get mummy. You know, if you're a mum of three and you're busy working full time, the breastfeeding request is, mummy, be with me, sit with me, and be with me. So it may simply be sitting down and thinking, okay, what are two or three things that I can really lean into where I can give this child my full attention?

Let's make them their own little den. You know, let's make them a brittle pretend cafe. Let's give them, you know, 10 minutes of really focused attachment play. And that's gonna be the thing I do instead. And actually the breastfeed is the kind of almost the boring thing I've gotta get outta the way to do the cool attachment play.

So you've gotta think about what's that child passionate about and what can you fill that vacuum with instead of a breastfeed. So it's really, first of all, working out where the requests are coming from. I wouldn't be surprised if she's being lept on when she walks in the door from work. So what's a new reconnection ritual going to be when she comes through the door?

But yeah, really it's about what's bothering her and that's where we're gonna start. What would you add to that? 

[00:26:21] Carly Facius: Definitely a little bit of exploration of what she's feeling. So she's, where do you start? I feel like you start with yourself. You start with, how am I feeling? How do I want this to look moving forward?

What's my capacity? These kind of questions. And I guess. How ready am I? Because often people are like, I wanna start, I want it to be done. And then actually once they start thinking about it, there's some barriers in the way, some emotional barriers. So I think that could be a really helpful place to kind of like look inward and see what's going on for her.

And obviously a lot that's a busy family life and I like that suggestion you have around coming home from work. And she is described a very similar family life to me, apart from my child is two, my third child and he does the same. So I would be encouraging her to think about ways to connect after periods of separation without breastfeeding.

So when she does come home, can she, after she's kind of said hello to everyone, can she then give the youngest child 15 minutes of focused attention where she can really be with him? Because it's thinking about, yeah, what is the need behind that request for a feed? And often it's not actually that I wanna feed, it's more that I want to have some time with you, I wanna reconnect with you.

And that's the easiest and most direct way to get that one-on-one time if he, he's or she is the only breastfeeding child in the family. 

[00:27:58] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. And, and actually to be super, super honest, the, the alternative may not be easier necessarily. You know, 15 minutes of focus play versus five minutes sitting on the sofa, breastfeeding.

You know, I think we need to be really open in this and, and not imagining that ending breastfeeding means that the child necessarily needs you less. There could be other challenges that aren't necessarily easier. Um. 

[00:28:21] Carly Facius: Breastfeeding is often the easiest option. 

[00:28:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean that is the reality. Yeah. Even as, even though both of us work with people to end breastfeeding journeys, I think it's so important that people don't imagine that once you end breastfeeding, you know your child sits there and reads a novel.

Yeah. I mean, they're gonna very much have all those needs still needing to be met. 

[00:28:38] Carly Facius: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:41] Emma Pickett: I’d love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got the story of Jesse's Milkies, which is a picture book from two to six year olds that really tells the story of Little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways.

Maybe there'll be a new baby sister, maybe his mom will need to practice parenthood weaning. Maybe he will have a self weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end. That we are there to support them through all of them.

And also we sometimes have needs to. Also on endings. We have supporting the transition from breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child. There are also chapters on different individual situations like weaning an older child when there's still a baby, feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation.

Then we have supporting breastfeeding past the first six months and beyond. That's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond. What are the common challenges and how can we overcome them, and let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey.

Then we have the breast book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14 year olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is. I talk about brass. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives.

So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com. Use the code MMPE10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful.

It really, really makes a difference and as you can tellyou can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you.

[00:30:46] Emma Pickett: Okay, next question, one for you. I'm 34 weeks pregnant and I have a 2-year-old co-sleeper who's breastfeeding, but he's currently telling me there's no milk. I want to night wean because I'm definitely finished with that part of it, and I won't be, be able to manage two in the night. He's waking every two hours.

Just now I'm thinking he's quite anxious about the impending baby. It seems harsh to wean him. If it's something he needs just now, what would you suggest? 

[00:31:13] Carly Facius: Oh, it's very tricky. I would definitely be wanting to support her to get more rest. Um, particularly leading up to having a newborn and she is identified that the sort of feeding two children in the night seems really overwhelming.

However, there's some feelings around letting that go when she's noticing his anxiety around the baby. But again, similar to what we've just talked about, just really like leaning into that connection with him and talking about the baby, talking about what's coming. Um, talking about breastfeeding and finding ways to really feel his emotional cup as much as possible as a 34, as a woman who's 34 weeks pregnant, so.

The games for tired parents where you are laying down and they're standing up and doing the legwork can be very helpful and definitely like play before bed. So doing as much kind of rough and tumble play for that child to really like move their body as much. Laughter is obviously going to help if he is with her and if there's a partner as well.

The partner can be doing more of the rough and tumble, but having her there to really help with the laughter and the connection can just be a really great way for them to feel connected so then he can have more restful sleep. I guess it really depends what her capacity is leading up and what her willingness is around the wake up in the middle of the night because obviously this is a short period of time to try to stop night feeding, particularly if he's waking so frequently.

Sometimes it can go either way. Really. Like sometimes when you have a timeline that you're working to that it's kind of like this just has to happen. There can be more kind of clarity and focus on that. And other times it can just backfire and it can feel really hard. So I imagine this woman knows what would be right for her and what kind of supports she's got in place in terms of partner or family members to help.

But I would definitely be, um, encouraging her to honor her body's need for rest and that she's already breastfed, you know, this child and it's about to embark on the next feeding journey. So is there a way that things can happen during the day? You know, is there more play that can come in during the day and then that rough and tumble before bed special time where she's doing focus connection with the child throughout the day?

Um, so he's feeling like he's got more of her rather than why is he waking up in the night, potentially, because there's a whole lot of feelings brewing because of this sense that life's about to change in a very big way with the arrival of a sibling. So how can she support him to get some of those feelings out during the day and hopefully that it's not going to be coming up at night as much?

[00:34:16] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So when this person wrote this message, I knew the episode wouldn't come out in time to really help her. So I did send her kind of an emergency response, but, um, I'm not gonna sugarcoat this, this is bloody difficult actually, 34, 34 weeks. I, I, I think even if she did have the capacity to night wean in the next couple of weeks, it's so close to the new baby coming.

I think the chances are this two year old's gonna continue waking once the new baby's here. And I'm not sure we could say that night weaning is necessarily gonna stop the waking. Um, so I think it's really important to look at the support network and be realistic about this. Um, if anyone's telling her, if you night ween, this child's not gonna wake anymore, I'm not sure that is the reality, especially if the waking is motivated by anxiety.

So I, I like what you're saying about really leaning into the connection stuff in the day, doing some role play. I'm a big fan of getting a doll and pretending it's the baby and talking about, you know, what's life gonna be like with the baby And when I hold the baby, how can we still sit together? And when I'm feeding the baby, how can we still read books and helping the child to kind of visualize that and also talk about, you know, sometimes it's gonna be difficult because you'll have to wait and sometimes we have to share milk and it's gonna be hard, but it's, this is not an easy situation.

Um, I'm just a bit worried that this mum thinks that night weaning is gonna be the end of the wakings and that isn't the reality. No. Um, but what she could maybe do is some partial night weaning. Weaning and see what happens. So. I'm a big fan of saying very openly to little people. I'm so sorry sweetie, but mommy's body can't do milk all night long.

My love, mommy's body has to sleep now. Um, and I'm also a big fan of using something like a color change clock to indicate this is the time when mommy's body is sleeping. So when this clock is red or this animal clock is asleep, mommy's body will be sleeping. Mommy can still do cu cuddles, but mommy won't be making milk at that time.

Um, and just gradually extending the time that the clock is in sleep mode for, um, and seeing if the child can have some acceptance around that and some understanding around that. Um, you might still be offering water. You might still get the wakes and you might still get the cuddles. Um, and then there, if there is a partner, I think this is enough of a crisis situation that the, maybe we need the partner to step in a little bit and to be doing some partial co-sleeping and to be saying, mommy needs to sleep my love, so you're gonna be sleeping with me while, while, you know, while mommy sleeps.

Um. Yeah, it's, this is all hands on deck in this situation, I think. 

[00:36:35] Carly Facius: Absolutely. I do feel like it's worth noting, like you said, night waiting doesn't necessarily mean that sleep is going to improve because we know that those things don't really go together. However, focusing on like giving that child space to express those feelings that she is sensing are impacting, you know, his sleep, then that could be helpful.

If it was more like, rather than trying to reduce feeding at night, but actually flipping it to like, how do I give this child space to express their feelings throughout the day and feel more connected because it's likely he's waking up seeking connection and seeking reassurance and comfort and obviously the breast is how he gets that.

I also always recommend to families to bring in power reversal games when they're preparing for a sibling to arrive in the family. But even any kind of changes in the breastfeeding journey, because that's like a loss of control for children. And when we are putting in limits, like that can feel so big for kids that they aren't getting choice really.

So if we can offer them games where they're the ones that are in the position of power, that can just be so helpful. So things like arm wrestles where they always win for toddlers and older children, or you can't catch me and you always let them catch you. Or things like, um, Simon says is good, or letting the child have a remote and they pointed at you and then you have to do whatever they, they'd say, so like, do five star jumps, bark like a dog, dance like a chicken.

So they have the authority and that can just feel really, really good for them when their life is starting to feel a bit. Out of control. So that's, yeah, a really, really helpful tool to bring in. 

[00:38:30] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, power reversal play super, super valuable. Okay, next question says, I am currently nursing baby number three and he's 14 months old.

My older two weaned at 19 months during mid pregnancy and at 22 months, which was a smooth process for us both. Neither of my older two slept through the night until they were night weaned. Uh, my question is why does some babies sleep through the night? In other words, you know, four hours plus at two months old, or really anytime under 12 months, and some don't.

What is actually biologically expected in a responsive on demand breastfeeding dyad that continues past 12 months? Are my children outliers or more normal than I think? I'm wondering if I'm more conditioned to think there's something wrong than not. I'm a big believer in nursing on demand and responsibly and to sleep, but it doesn't seem to correlate with sleeping longer at night.

Okay, so when you look into the research around sleep, and I'm saying actually since we last spoke, Carly, I trained as a holistic sleep coach, so I've got a lot more sleep stuff in my head. Got more sleep stuff in my head than I had. One of the things I would say is that it's, there's so much research out there around what's normal when it comes to sleep, but not a lot of it focuses on, you know, on demand, breastfeeding, co-sleeping families, because actually that isn't necessarily the majority of the families that we find in the western world, and not necessarily the majority of people entering, you know, sleep studies and research studies.

But I would say that certainly for a breastfeeding child under the age of three, waking more than once at night is not uncommon. And I would say for a child under the age of 12 months, multiple feeds, multiple wakings is absolutely normal. Um, and the idea that a child should be sleeping a block longer than, you know, 8, 9, 10 hours.

Absolutely does happen for some children under 18 months, but I wouldn't say it is the most common experience. So I keep interviewing people on the podcast who are like, oh yeah, my baby's self weaned at night and my baby sleeps 10 house. And I'm like, that's great for people to hear. But that is not who I'm meeting regularly.

When I talk to families who are continuing to breastfeed, little mammals are designed, are hardwired to check in with their caregivers. That is what we are designed to do. We are carry mammals. We have low fat content in our milk. We are designed to feed frequently. That includes through the night as well.

That is the what the constituents of our breast milk tell us. And we are, we are very, very sensitively wired to be social animals. So we very much want to connect with others and we want to feel that sense of wellbeing and attachment. So it is absolutely normal for a little person to wake multiple times in the night.

And the idea that anybody should be sleeping for 10, 12 hours isn't actually normal because adults don't either. Adults wake, I won't even tell you how many times they woke last night, but you know, they, they wake and they don't always realize they've woken, they, they trans for to the next sleep cycle without necessarily being conscious that they've done it.

But that's what humans do. And if you look at research around, you know, what humans are doing in the medieval period, you know, they were having first sleep, waking up, having a bit of social time, having a meal, having second sleep. So, you know, certainly the idea that we have one big long block of sleep is not normal for anybody.

And this message that little people should be having one big lockup sleep really is this kind of western, 19th century, 20th century, a aberration. It is just not the reality. So this, this person's children are absolutely normal. They're absolutely standard. Why do some babies sleep longer than others?

Truthfully, it's so complex. We can't say for sure, but it's certainly not because of something the parents do. It quite often is an innate thing. You know, there's research that talks about some babies being dandelion babies and some babies being orchid babies. We don't make babies, orchid babies. That is something that's inherent and innate.

Sleep is about sensory connection. It's about physical comfort, it's about food, it's about circadian rhythms, it's about melatonin, it's about cortisol. You know, lots of hormones flying around, and I think it's really important for hu for human parents. I say human parents only parents, to understand that we don't make our children sleep.

I think so many parents think that they are completely omni, omnipotent, and all powerful, and their children's sleep is entirely within their control. We are just along for the ride. We can tweak, we can make opportunities, we can create environments. We can certainly cap naps and play around with daytime sleep.

But our children's sleep is not under our control. They are this gorgeous person that centered our lives. They're their own person, their own personality. They might have a complete different sleep pattern to ours. And, and that's the reality. But yeah, this person's children are normal. And the fact that they slept through the night when they're night weaned, that's great news.

'cause that doesn't always happen. Um, lots of little people that don't breastfeed are still waking, you know, once or twice a night up until three or four, five, even. Certainly a waking, waking once a night, every now and again under the age of five is, is not that unusual. What would you add to that? 

[00:43:25] Carly Facius: That there's nothing wrong with these children and there's nothing wrong with this mother.

Everything that you've said makes perfect sense and I remember looking at the research and finding it so interesting how there's such a wide spectrum in different. Sleep requirements for different ages and it can be, you know, a few hours. So one child might sleep for nine hours overall in a 24 hour period and the other child might sleep for 12 hours.

And I found it interesting when they looked at different countries as well, so they, you know, compared different countries and in some countries it was more common for people, people, children, babies, to be what was more on the like low sleep needs end of the spectrum, and then others to be the higher sleep needs.

But like you said, we're all individual and we don't really have control over our children. We can do our best to find ways to, you know, support their sleep through sleep hygiene and things like that. But again, like yeah, your child is your own, their own person. So I think it's really important too.

Acknowledge that and also take a bit of the pressure off yourself because often parents are thinking like they're doing something wrong if their child isn't sleeping a certain way or if they haven't stopped napping at a certain age or if they're waking at a certain age. And it's so important just to know, just to trust that your child is gonna get the sleep that they need, like your child knows what sleep that they need, and we might be learning from our child about what their kind of sleep habits are.

So it's a bit of surrendering and leaning into trust that actually most children are pretty aware of what kind of sleep they're going to need. 

[00:45:19] Emma Pickett: Yep. Cool. Thank you. Okay. Right. Next one for you. Here we go. Um, how long is upset likely to ask when you say no? My 18 month old cries hysterically when the boob is not available at night, a cuddle just won't cut it.

[00:45:36] Carly Facius: Yeah, that makes sense. Particularly if the, if the boob has always been available, when we start to bring in limits around breastfeeding, that's often when we will get the biggest, longest feelings. And there isn't any kind of specific time of what time is too long. I've heard. So many different numbers thrown around.

I remember in a trauma course them saying a baby crying for more than six minutes was going to cause long-term damage. Which obviously I don't feel 

[00:46:11] Emma Pickett: so that's a b that's a baby being left alone. 

[00:46:13] Carly Facius: No, in a caregiver's arm. 

[00:46:15] Emma Pickett: Oh, come on. I know. I'm a, I'm sorry. Yeah. That who's, which baby is not flipping, crying for six minutes.

Exactly. That is, and I'm saying that very much as a proponent of gentle parenting. That is absolute bollocks, isn't it? Yeah. 'cause kids will cry when they're teeny weenie for two hours at a time sometimes. Exactly. Whatever you do. And, and that messaging is so upsetting and harmful to parents. 

[00:46:38] Carly Facius: It, I think it's, yeah.

So my general response around crying is that if a child is in. Loving arms or in the presence of a loving caregiver, um, and that they feel supported in that expression of the feelings. We can't really say how much is too much or how long is too long. It's more up to the caregiver. It's more up to the parent when they hit their limit and they're like, actually, I can't be here in a loving present way anymore.

And so 

[00:47:10] Emma Pickett: yeah, 

[00:47:11] Carly Facius: that's when you might actually choose to move into a distraction or offering the breast or or another person. Is there another parent or another caregiver that can come in and take over? Because yeah, we know that some kids will cry for a long time. And particularly like with an aware parenting lens, we talk about accumulated feelings.

So if we have been. Breastfeeding on demand all of this time. And there's been times when actually they might not have been hungry, they might have been full of feelings and we've offered the breast or a dummy or pacifier that perhaps they didn't get that opportunity to say, share their feelings, that there might be a bit of a backlog.

And I think we can relate to this as adults, when you might be noticing that you're running on a bit of a higher revs or stress level, and then you, um, shut your finger in the door or you know, drops break something and it's like the whole world has ended and it's this incredible eruption of emotions and you're lying on the floor in fetal position.

Um, but actually it was just a broken cup. So often it's, you know, this tip of the iceberg moment. So perhaps in this situation that child hasn't really had limits around breastfeeding and there could be some feelings that are. Bubbling underneath. And then when the mother's putting in a limit, it's a volcanic eruption because there's a lot there.

So my suggestion would really be around what is her capacity and how much can she be with, um, I don't think we can specify like a time limit. It's really around. Yeah. How are you feeling in that moment? How, how long can you be there? And are there times where you can put limits in and listen when you are feeling a bit more resourced rather than in the middle of the night?

Because most of us aren't feeling resourced in the middle of the night. 

[00:49:11] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. And, and maybe this, it's worth just unpicking a little bit, what kind of preparation has happened before this. Because if we just say no in the middle of the night for the first time without any other soothing methods, no habit stacking, no discussion, no preparation.

We're gonna get a big reaction that is not only, Hey, I want the breast, but also what the heck? This is coming outta the blue. I've had no preparation for this. So, so if you want to say no in the middle of the night, let's spend a bit of time doing some habit stacking. Let's develop some other soothing methods alongside breastfeeding.

So when breastfeeding ends, you can offer those instead. Let's maybe do some talking in the day and explain that even at 18 months you can have these conversations that mommy's body needs a rest, and that sometimes booby will be sleeping at nighttime. So we need to have the vocabulary around breastfeeding.

Um, and as you say, really the bottom line is what's your capacity and what can, what can you handle and, and upset. It's not always at the same level all the way. You know, it might come in crescendos and, and actually sometimes children will be in a period of greater calm after they have had some upset, and that greater calm is a time when you can kind of connect them and settle them.

Some people say, oh, I don't want any upset at all when I do weaning. But truthfully, your child is allowed to be distressed. Your child is allowed to react to the end of breastfeeding. Um, and and the idea there shouldn't be any emotion often comes from our guilt and us feeling uncomfortable about ending breastfeeding.

Okay, next question says, will sleep actually improve If I night wean my 32 month old, so impossible to answer, I'm afraid. 'cause we don't know what your story is. Are you still napping them? For example, could perhaps, perhaps they be having fragmented night's sleep because of nap times and volume of sleep, or expectations around sleep.

Are you expecting a 12 hour night and that's why you're struggling from 4:00 AM? I think if a 32 month old is waking with every sleep cycle and pretty much with every sleep cycle is asking for the breast to transition to the next sleep cycle and has what we might call an association or a prop dependency, then yes, I think it is possible that if you end breastfeeding.

They may knit together some more of their sleep cycles because if you can help them to knit sleep cycles together without the breast, they're more likely to make that transition themselves. So yes, I think it is possible that sleep could improve. If you have a 32 month old that's waking once or twice, I'm not sure night weaning will end that.

Is that the quickest answer so far? What, what, what do would you add to that, Carly? That's the answer so far. 

[00:51:39] Carly Facius: Um, yeah, I would just add about giving a lot of information about the changes and preparing the child because at 32 months, like they're very, uh, capable of understanding that actually at that, you know, during the night, the first wake up or the second wake up, we're going to offer you a drink of water or have a cuddle or things like this.

Um. Will it improve? Yeah, I guess I, I wouldn't be able to make a comment because I, we'd need more information. Really. 

[00:52:12] Emma Pickett: Yeah, it might, and if it doesn't, you can always go back again. I mean, that is the reality. You can always return to breastfeeding at night if nights haven't improved and you're struggling even more to get 'em to act to sleep.

But it might, um, okay, next question says, I'm trying to wean my 17 month old, not outta choice, but for health reasons. But the more I try, the more she wants it. It's like I have a newborn again through the night up to nine times. This has always been the way, and in the day can be every half an hour. 

[00:52:40] Carly Facius: I'm really sorry.

That's really hard. Particularly if you are weaning when it's not actually your choice. And I think that's probably where I'd go to first is. Do you have a space to talk about that? Do you have a therapist or uh, can you talk to a lactation consultant or even just a trusted friend to explore some of the feelings that are there?

Because often what happens is when we are starting to make changes around the breastfeeding rhythm and we are leaning out, our children sense that they feel that and they lean in. So it sounds like that's what you're describing with the baby, with the toddler seeming like a newborn baby. Again, in terms of the frequency of breastfeeding requests and potentially they're really sensing what's going on at home as well if there are some health reasons that are requiring this person to wean.

So I'd definitely be looking into. How are you going to, how can you make peace with this? Because it sounds like it's really big. And what support have you got available? Because this is, this is big and it's going to need more support. So whatever support you have, can you call those people in? Um, because it's likely you're going to need to find ways to really be with your little one's discomfort.

And your own discomfort it sounds like. Can you look at different games, different ways of saying no to this child? Can you bring more play into it? I keep talking about play, but I'm gonna bring it. 

[00:54:27] Emma Pickett: But please play's the thing. I mean, when I read this question, I think play, 

[00:54:30] Carly Facius: yeah. 

[00:54:30] Emma Pickett: A child requesting every half hour.

[00:54:32] Carly Facius: Yeah, 

[00:54:33] Emma Pickett: we need a reset. Reset on play. That's, that's what, that's what comes to my mind. Yeah. And if they're requesting that much, what's happening with toys at home? You know, how are toys organized? Is it too overwhelming? Yeah. You know, how do they cope with transitions between different games and play? 

[00:54:50] Carly Facius: Yeah.

[00:54:50] Emma Pickett: Learning about power reversal play and attachment play. Because if you can find something a 17 month old is excited about, they'll wanna do that instead. 

[00:54:57] Carly Facius: Yeah. 

[00:54:58] Emma Pickett: But I guess we also have to think about what's happening with food, what's happening with drinking water, meals, and snacks. Um, because a child that's waking up nine times could potentially be taking a lot of milk overnight, and we may need some help around recalibrating the calorie intake and thinking about what's happening with meals.

[00:55:16] Carly Facius: Yeah. Yeah. A simple play idea would be that when they request to breastfeed, particularly when you're saying in the daytime it was like 30 minutes. So that real frequent, that really frequent. Request. Um, just something very simple. So like when girls or boys, girls or boys who ask to breastfeed that time, that often get a thousand kisses or they get danced around the kitchen or they get snuggled and cuddled and you know, so bringing a bit of play into it so that you can both laugh because obviously this is quite a high pressure, intense situation and likely both parent and child are feeling some tension in their bodies.

And I can imagine with the frequent request for feeding, that is a lot for this mother. So if there's a way to just really bring in some simple play, so when, when children ask to breastfeed, they get a big cuddle or they get jumped, they, we jump on the bed or we dance around the kitchen, something like that.

So you're just helping bring a bit of laughter in to kind of. Start to diffuse some of that tension that most 

[00:56:25] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:56:26] Carly Facius: Might most likely is there. 

[00:56:28] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And the other thing I would just add is what else can they ask for? Because quite often, sort of preverbal little people will love to ask for breastfeeds because it's the asking that's really empowering and what I call the communication buzz from having that request met.

So literally thinking what else can they ask for? You know, if I'm gonna introduce dancing in the kitchen, can they say the word dance? Can they point to the disco light? Um, what else can they request? And that request immediately be understood. Um, if you add in three or four alternative requests, you may find that those, those start to drop.

Yeah. And obviously waking up through the night nine times. We'd also want to look at what's happening with nap time. I'm assuming this child's down to one nap, but how long is it? What time is it? Is there enough sleep pressure? What else could be going on? Um, okay. A younger child in the next question. I'm deeply struggling with nights with my almost 11 month old.

We co-sleep. He's waking eight to 10 times per night. This is a guess. He just got several new top teeth, which is making nursing quite painful in the night when his latch isn't as considered. While he nurses, he pinches me and hits me, and my olas are sore from his teeth. I'm not able to sleep or dose while he nurses because I'm trying to manage him.

He only gets back to sleep via nursing, but I'm feeling increasingly distressed at night with his nursing. I wouldn't mind if it's only a few times, but I don't feel I'm getting any decent sleep and my mental health is suffering. Um, the nights have been really, really hard. He just won't sleep. Okay, so I'm so sorry you're going through this.

This sounds really, really hard. I'm gonna say one thing here. Latch sounds like this person needs some help with latching because you shouldn't really be feeling pain from teeth even when teeth are coming in. You shouldn't be, um, your areola shouldn't be sore from his teeth. So I'm wondering whether one of the reasons that he's pinching and hitting, and one of the reasons he's waking as frequently as he is, is because the latch isn't as ideal as it could be.

And that means he's, he's struggling to transfer milk and that he's also frustrated because of the latch as well. So we need to get this person some actual physical lactation support to make sure that positioning is right. So we want to make sure that the child is, if you're sideline, for example, that the child isn't too high on your body, that they're low enough, that they're, they really are still nose to nipple, that they're tilting their head back when they breastfeed and their chin is coming away from their chest.

Um, that they're looking up at the breast, not looking into the breast. Because if that latch is right, those top teeth rest very gently on the breast and we don't get that, that areola rubbing and the areola being sore. So might sound a bit of a weird place to start, but I think this is a breastfeeding issue potentially.

And, and this person needs to talk to somebody who's experienced in working with toddlers. It's very difficult to reproduce a position if you're in a group or meeting a, you know, breastfeeding peer supporter. So to make some, take some videos of the positioning at nighttime, ask someone else to, or try and do it yourself.

Take little video clips of latching at night and show them to a lactation consultant and we can see if maybe some positioning adjustment may A, make you more comfortable, but also B mean that they get milk more efficiently and maybe then we'll start to feed less frequently. Um, and we're also at 11 months wanting to think about naps as well.

But it sounds as though this person's been struggling for quite a long time. Um, so I think latching maybe has been an issue for quite a long time. 

[00:59:43] Carly Facius: Mm-hmm. 

[00:59:43] Emma Pickett: So it might seem weird to think that latching is the answer for frequent waking, but I think here it sounds like there's something's going on with positioning and attachment that's making life particularly tricky.

How, is that what you would say as well? 

[00:59:54] Carly Facius: Yeah, I think it's quite common to get to a certain place, you know, in that first year or even beyond where it's about going back to basics. Because often our babies and toddlers grow and the way that we've been feeding them doesn't work anymore. And so even just playing around and experimenting with adjusting the position could be a good place for this person to start during the day.

Um, she has mentioned her mental health is struggling, so it sounds like she really needs help as soon as possible. And I'm curious about like with the pinching and kicking that's happening, is that, uh, a place where she could be able to put a few more boundaries in around taking care of her body and encouraging her child to be a bit more mindful?

He is 11 months, so it is possible for him, for her to, you know, share that information and even also. Asking him, you know, open your mouth wide or can, you know, help talking to him in a way that he might be able to position himself that's going to be more comfortable for her. So working together, which if you are sleep deprived and you've been waking up all night, that is difficult.

But if there are moments where there's a little bit more energy throughout the day, taking the time to experiment and play around, and is there other people that can support her, particularly if things are feeling tricky mental health wise. Yeah. 

[01:01:23] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Thanks for that. Okay. Right, so we're just coming up to an hour.

So let's pause for part one and come and find episode part two, which will be released on the same day.

[01:01:40] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett IBCLC and on Twitter @MakesMilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well, get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.