Jessica's story - a breastfeeding police officer

This week, I’m speaking to the brilliant Jessica, a police officer in Stirling, Scotland, about combining breastfeeding with police work and shift patterns. Jessica shares life with her two daughters, Nora (nearly 10) and Harriet (nearly 2), describing responsive breastfeeding, co-sleeping, and how Harriet settles well for her father and grandmother when Jessica works rotating day shifts and back shifts finishing at 1am. They discuss Jessica’s earlier breastfeeding experience with Nora, which ended after a hospital admission and antibiotic treatment, and contrast it with Harriet’s birth, a home water birth followed by NICU admission for suspected infection. Jessica describes later tongue-tie issues resolved privately, returning to full-time frontline policing at 14 months without pumping, and reflects on managing risk, trauma, and the value of taking feeding and work transitions step by step. 

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, by going to https://bit.ly/JKPbooks and using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end.

And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too. Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I am gonna be speaking to Jessica. Jessica is in Scotland, in Stirling in Scotland. And as you'll have seen from the title of the episode, we're talking about motherhood while working in the police force, which is very exciting. And I'm really thrilled that you're able to join me today, Jessica.

'cause I think it's really important to get an idea of how we combine breastfeeding with, with different jobs and different kinds of employment. Tell us about your family. 

[00:01:13] Jessica: Um, so I've got two little girls. Um, well, one's not so little. She'll be 10 next week and one is nearly two. She'll be two in April. Um, and she's, she's, as you would expect, a normal 2-year-old or energy.

[00:01:26] Emma Pickett: So you're still currently breastfeeding your little one? Who is Harriet? Yes. Tell us about a typical 24 hours in her breastfeeding life. 

[00:01:33] Jessica: Oh, okay. Harriet. She's, um, at the moment going through a bit of a clingy phase. To be honest, we're only mumble due much to my husband's dismay. Um, but typically she'll nurse when she wakes up, we sleep together.

Um, nurse when she wakes up early hours in the morning, which she'll keep her asleep about another hour or so and she'll get up. She's quite an early riser, which is fine 'cause it gets the day going. Um, and then sometimes she'll ask again. Around breakfast and sometimes not. And I just, I'm still very responsive in feeding her.

I've not really set any boundaries yet or any limits. She just asks for Boo and then she has them. And then, um, in the evening, she'll nurse mostly before naps as well. And then in the evening, she'll nurse before bed and we sleep together. So sometimes overnight. Maybe I'd say twice is the average, but I'm not fully conscious for those nursing.

So sometimes I'll wake up and I've not really got a great grasp of how many times I've nursed, but um, I know I would've. Um, and then that's us. So it's very much ebbs and flows. If she's unwell, it's more if it's, you know, if she is. Very busy than less, so. Yeah. 

[00:02:49] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So very flexible and, and very responsive.

And it sounds as though, um, you've got the perfect sleeping situation where you don't always wake up when she's feeding, which is, which is the dream. Um, and what's your working schedule at the moment? Do you do shift work? How does, how does, what's a typical week? 

[00:03:05] Jessica: So I'm like basically rotate for day shifts.

One week back shifts another, the latest finish for me is a 1:00 AM I still have a lot of like, just 'cause Harriet and I sleep together. I haven't changed my sleeping situation because I only have two really late finishes a Friday and a Saturday. Um, so I didn't see a point in, you know, night weaning her or adjusting where she sleeps or, or anything like that.

So. On those two nights, she'll sometimes wake up looking for me and it can be quite unsettled for my husband, but she's never distressed. Um, and I just climb into bed with her when I get back. But typically, yeah, either all day on the day shifts. My mother-in-law watches her or, um, the back shift is my husband.

[00:03:48] Emma Pickett: Okay. So the back shift's the word for the kind of later shift that finishes 

at 

[00:03:52] Emma Pickett: at 1:00 AM Yes. 1:00 AM Yeah. And you mentioned that you haven't changed your nighttime feeding patterns, which I think is really valuable for people to hear. 'cause I think there's self assumption that people need to night wean for in order for someone else to be able to care for their child.

So when your husband is in charge of bedtimes, and you have an older daughter as well, that we'll we'll talk about in a minute, but when your husband's in charge of bedtimes. Do you get a sense of what is he, what does he do? What's his sort of typical pattern? 

[00:04:15] Jessica: So we actually find it quite funny because when I first started back, oh, I was, I went back when she was 14 months, and I was so anxious about it because up until that point we just accepted that I was gonna be doing the lion's share of the settling at night because I was, I was at home and breastfeeding and James, my husband, did a lot of the, the caring for the older one, the, the food, meals, the housekeeping, like, so we were, we were a really good team.

But it was just accepted with Harriet. This is just a knuckle down and, you know, get through this phase with her. And when I went back to work I was like, oh, he's gonna have a nightmare. You know, she'll never settle for him. And the first couple of days she, she was harder to get to sleep, but not distressed.

And by the end of the first month, he's, to this day, has a far easier time settling her than I do. So he her down. She's out like a light five minutes. And when I put her down, he often texts me being like, are you on? Are you coming? Because it's half an hour later and she's still chatting to me and she's still on and off.

And you know, he, I don't mind that 'cause I quite like connecting with her and she falls asleep, but he's like, honestly, she's absolutely taking the mick at you because when it's him, she's down, she's asleep. He's down, you know, sorting the oldest, but with me half an hour later we're still chatting. So yeah, he finds he's got, 

[00:05:41] Emma Pickett: he's got some daddy magic.

[00:05:43] Jessica: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:05:44] Emma Pickett: And your mother-in-law care for her in the day when you're working. Mm-hmm. And I presumably she's doing granny naps. How does she do a granny nap? 

[00:05:51] Jessica: So Harriet's always had her nap in her bed, and she just lies there. I think she gets my mother-in-law to sing to her. So they have their own little thing, which works for them.

But Harriet's fine to just go to sleep as per normal. Bed. And same for the evening. If, if she's put down, it's the same, same place, same scenario. Um, it's just more when it's me, I'm a different entity and the expectation of me is different. But her actual setting, she's fine. Whoever does it. Okay. She's not, she's not bothered.

So, yeah. 

[00:06:21] Emma Pickett: Brilliant. Thank you for sending that. Sent, um, painting that picture. Uh, um. I'd love to ask you a bit more about your work in a minute, but I think it's just really nice to hear how a little breastfed 2-year-old who is essentially responsibly breastfed when you're with her 

[00:06:32] Jessica: Yeah. 

[00:06:33] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Is able to be that adaptive and be cared for by other people.

And you haven't had to change your own breastfeeding patterns, which I think is such an important lesson for the people. Um, okay. Let's take a few steps back. Um. You told me before we started recording that you actually weren't a police officer when you had your first daughter and you trained while you were a mother, which I think is a great perspective to hear.

[00:06:54] Jessica: Yeah. 

[00:06:54] Emma Pickett: So let's go back 10 years when you gave birth to your first daughter, Nora, what, what were you doing for work? What was your situation? 

[00:07:03] Jessica: So I fell pregnant with her quite soon, um, into our relationship and I was actually my third year university, so I had to take a year out to have her. Um, which was a shock, but it was, it turned out to be the best thing for us.

And I ended up going back to university when she was five months old to finish my honors degree. But other than that, after around studying, I was just at home with her. So a lot of it was at home and some of it was going into uni. Um, 

[00:07:30] Emma Pickett: okay. 

[00:07:31] Jessica: Yeah. So what were you, what 

[00:07:31] Emma Pickett: were you studying? 

[00:07:33] Jessica: Politics and English.

[00:07:34] Emma Pickett: So, 

[00:07:35] Jessica: yeah. 

[00:07:36] Emma Pickett: And was the university kind of helpful with things like accommodation? Did you have like family accommodation? How did that work out? 

[00:07:42] Jessica: I stayed, we, we bought a house. I mean, my, my husband was finishing his, um, master's degree and we just moved in together when we found out I was pregnant. And, um, Nora came along, as I said, I was not working for that year, which was fine.

Um, and that was helpful because I think the first five months of having a baby are always really intense. Um, and then after, you know, when she was five, six months, I was back, back to uni together. So university is very flexible. You know, you kind of could dip in and outta classes. I had a lot of online lectures, that sort of thing.

And when you write your final paper, a lot of that is, is from home. Yeah, so it was actually fine. So looking back, I dunno how I did it. I dunno how my brain functioned on the sleep I was getting in, but I managed to to graduate on time. So got there in end. Oh, 

[00:08:28] Emma Pickett: congratulations. 

[00:08:29] Jessica: Thank you. 

[00:08:31] Emma Pickett: One thing I sometimes think about when I hear people saying they had a family at university is I don't think the British system is as supportive of that as maybe other countries.

So I think it's quite common in America for people to have a family and go to university and other countries in the world. But I think in the UK we assume everybody is 18, 19, 20, single no family. Did you, I mean, and tell me if this is too much of a personal question, but did it feel sort of isolating emotionally, socially?

Did you have other friends that had kids? 

[00:08:58] Jessica: No, I didn't. I was the only one who was pregnant when I started before I actually took the year out. I, I was gonna university when I was pregnant, when I took the year out, that was fine. Um, and I was supported by obviously the Scottish, um, it's like the funding, they funded my year out, but on my return, because I was coming in at fourth year, fourth, that's very much more a student led pace.

I think if this had happened in my first year. Where you've got, you know, mandatory lectures, mandatory, uh, tutorials where you have to go in as part of your, um, component for your education. That would've been very difficult. But because I was in my fourth year, virtually the full year, you write a thesis.

That's it. 

[00:09:38] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:09:39] Jessica: Um, I think if that had been the other way around, and if I was in my first year, I would've really struggled. But, um, there was very little, actually, there was very little requirement for me to go into classes. 

[00:09:49] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:09:50] Jessica: Um, and I had lectures who were quite accommodating of my situation, so I managed in the end.

[00:09:56] Emma Pickett: Okay. Well, I'm so glad that you did. And, and were you originally from your university town? Did you go to university near where your family was from? 

[00:10:03] Jessica: So, I'm originally South African and I moved over in 2009 when I was just before I was 16. I've lived here in Sterling since then, and I did go to school here my last two years of education here.

Okay. But I'm originally from the South Africa. Okay, 

[00:10:19] Emma Pickett: cool. So you met your husband, you had your lovely daughter, Nora, and then you finished and graduated. And did you know at that point that you wanted to go into the police force? What, what were you thinking? 

[00:10:29] Jessica: Do you know what? I finished and got my politics degree and I just, I, I didn't wanna teach, I didn't wanna continue studying and I didn't wanna go into government.

I didn't wanna go into politics. And just thought I'm, I'm my stature. I'm six foot one. I like communicating with people. I like interesting shifts. I like everyday being different. I don't wanna sit in an office nine till five, and the police in Scotland is quite well paid. So it just made sense for me. I like that a lot of my shifts, I was able to be there for school drop offs, and in some shifts I was there for pickup.

It wasn't a Monday till Friday, nine till five, so it was a bit more flexible. Um, and I liked that. So it, it fitted well with the stage of parenting that I was at. 

[00:11:13] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So where, how old was Nora when you started trying training? 

[00:11:17] Jessica: She was three. Okay. Just three and a half. 

[00:11:19] Emma Pickett: And 

[00:11:19] Jessica: were 

[00:11:19] Emma Pickett: you breastfeeding at that point or had you finished?

[00:11:21] Jessica: No, um, I, I stopped quite early on with Nora. Um, we had a incredible breastfeeding experience. She was very textbook, had her. And she was straight on latched. She was great feeder. She was the chunkiest baby. The, the midwives all just said to me, wow. Like, whatcha feeding her? Um, but I was quite young and none of my friends had babies at that point.

They had, they were breastfeeding. So I was the only person in my, in my world that had a young baby, and we, we got on. Okay. And it was more, I kind of fit Nora into my expectations of being a mom. Where I thought she needed to be in her own room in a cot. I needed to, you know, feed her, you know, go through and feed her.

And that really affected the sleep had really affected my ability to function. Um, especially when we hit, you know, the 10, 9, 10 month sleep progression, which was absolutely any parents got kids who know that that's actually the most brutal one. Um, she was wanting to, to feed multiple times, but then I was putting her back and then going back to bed.

I was fully waking up. Um, and it kind of led to me having, I, I wouldn't say a health episode, but they weren't actually sure to this day what caused it. They thought it was my appendix and I had to go into hospital when she was 10 months old, and I remembered panicking, thinking no one else can feed her.

She wouldn't take a bottle, that I was exclusively breastfeeding. The doctor was quite dismissive. He just said, oh, well she's old enough. Um, and I said, right. Um, so I was admitted for five days and, um, as a result of the antibiotics, couldn't feed her. Okay. And she was at home with James, so I was really stressed about her, but she was fine.

To my surprise. She, um, James, my husband, said, despite having never done any of the wakes, the next day he came to see me and he was like, she slept through. And I was like, what 

[00:13:19] Emma Pickett: Josh? That's so stressful and I can't imagine there's a lot going on there, Jessica. I mean, I'm just aware that it sounds as though you didn't exactly know what was wrong with you for a start separated from your baby, even regardless of the breastfeeding issue and, and yeah, with health professionals who certainly had no idea why you would still be breastfeeding at 10 months.

We're not talking about, you know, a 7-year-old. She's so little. Yeah. 

[00:13:41] Jessica: I was quite like, oh, I, I said, can I bring her because she doesn't take a bottle, so I, I need, I don't know what I'm gonna do. And he was just a bit like, he, the confusion on his face was like, I'm not understanding like why this is a problem.

Um, just give her a bottle when I was like, she has, you know, she was weaned, she ate really well. So I knew that my husband would figure it out, but it was quite stressful. I didn't feel like. And it's not the nhss fault. They can't accommodate people bringing babies, and I get that, but 

[00:14:09] Emma Pickett: Well, 

[00:14:10] Jessica: they can. 

[00:14:10] Emma Pickett: They can.

I can. But anyway, I'm not gonna go back and rewrite history and, and, and obviously what happened happened, and that's what needed to happen in that moment. Yeah. And, and it sounds as though she was happy to sleep through and fine with James, which is all good. 

[00:14:23] Jessica: She was fine. Um, but unfortunately I was there for five days and the antibiotics they had me on were quite strong.

And then on my release. I remember they were like, well, that's your discharged. And I said, right. Okay. I said, the antibiotics that you've given me because I needed to continue a dose at home was two weeks long. And he was like, you can't feed on these. And I said, can you go and check please? Because I said I wanna feed her when I return.

And he said, right. And you never go back to me. And in hindsight, I probably could have pushed harder, but I was, I was still quite young. Um, I didn't, I kind of thought in my head, I'm approaching with. One year mark, like I may as well just, just weaned, but it was kind of, my hand was forced because I went back and it was like, well, I can't either.

[00:15:06] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:15:07] Jessica: And if I could put myself back in that position, I would have probably been a bit more forceful and thought, nah, there will be options. Suitable. So find out. And I just kind of accepted the doctor your best. 

[00:15:21] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:15:21] Jessica: And that, that kind of forced that to end for me. 

[00:15:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:15:24] Jessica: Which is frustrating. 

[00:15:25] Emma Pickett: Yeah.

I'm so, I'm so sorry that was your experience and I, but I also don't want you to, I mean, I hope you're not being rough on yourself because you obviously were not an environment where you knew much about breastfeeding beyond that age and, and no. You thought you were on the final stage anyway and you weren't well, and you'd been in hospital for several days and there's lots and lots of things that were stacked against you.

Um, so did, did your husband manage to get, to take a bottle? I mean, what was going on with her milk intake? 

[00:15:52] Jessica: So it was weird. She had never taken a bottle, adamantly refused, and then after the hospital and after the, um, he was just feeding her, I think he was trying sippy cups, but she wasn't having it. When I returned, all of a sudden she decided, all right, well I'll have one.

Um, and it was like, are you joking? We've been trying for ages and it was almost like a, a, a switch flick. And she just, she took a bottle, so she was on formula, uh, until she was over one. And I think my husband quite liked that. He liked that you could feed her and it took a lot pressure off me. Um, and because I was clearly struggling with my health at that point and, and the stress and the sleepless nights.

So it was nice to have that and she started sleeping through, so it's hard not to attribute all of that to me. Weaning. Yeah, because I know she was always quite a settled baby, and she might have just been ready for that anyway. But yeah, it did. Things got a lot easier after that point for me. And I didn't, I didn't mourn.

That it ended too early. I was just more frustrated that my, my hand had been forced. Yeah, that was it. Um, it wasn't a conscious decision that I made. It was kind of made for me, um, but it wasn't the worst in terms of, for my mental wellbeing. Probably felt a bit easier. To split the load a little bit. But, um, now that I've had Harriet, I do regret that.

[00:17:08] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:17:09] Jessica: And now that I've had her, I'm like, oh, I wish I'd tried to, uh, reintroduce the breasts after two weeks. 'cause she probably would've. Um, but I just kind of like, oh, well that's it. 

[00:17:18] Emma Pickett: Yeah, 

[00:17:18] Jessica: that's it. Done. 

[00:17:19] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I understand. I understand. Okay, so you started to train as a police officer. And for anyone who doesn't know, what does that that training look like?

[00:17:27] Jessica: So you basically go to police college for 11 to 12 weeks. Um, and this was the height of COVID, so it was a very strange experience. And then, um, after that, you're in your probation for two years where you work with a tutor cop and then you pass out, and then you're officially, uh, well you are police constable when you leave the college, but you're officially, um.

Like after the two year period, that's when you pass out officially to become a fully fledged police officer. 

[00:17:55] Emma Pickett: Okay. So pass out is the word for kind of graduating kind of thing? Yeah. Okay. And when you say you're assigned to a tutor cop, I mean, my brain is just full of flipping television programs, so I deeply apologize.

So you are, you're kind of partner is your, is your tutor cop and you, and you go out on. Patrol, is that the word? I don't know. 

[00:18:15] Jessica: Yeah. 

[00:18:15] Emma Pickett: Yeah. You go out on patrol with, with your partner who is more senior to you. Mm-hmm. And then presumably they have to kind of do assessments on you and, and report to someone else.

How you getting on? 

[00:18:24] Jessica: Yeah, so there's, there's, there's numerous fitness tests. There's a load of like, um, there's like your exams that you set, this theory tests. It is quite a intense experience. Um, and nothing really prepares you for that first. Year in that job. Um, but you, if you luck out and you get a great tutor, it's just learning on the job.

Um, a lot of that's just as you go. Um, and you get there. So just take it as it comes. 

[00:18:47] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And then when you've gone to police college and you're sort of on, on the beat, God apologies for my terrible language. You're fine. You're okay. Um, can you like specialize in different areas or is there just kind of general community policing?

What, what do you. What do you decide? 

[00:19:04] Jessica: So generally speaking, that you get put to response first. 'cause that's your bread butter policing. It's like going to, you deal with everything under the sun and response. Um, and it's a really important part of being a police officer. Um, you get your blue light training as well in response and it's probably, it's both the most exciting and most stressful part of policing.

The aspect that I've moved into now is community policing, which is still frontline uniformed. We still go to the same, a lot, the same calls, but it's a lot more community focused, a lot more school talks. Um. You know, a lot more neighbor disputes. So yeah, I enjoy that now that's a new role for me. 

[00:19:42] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:19:43] Jessica: But no, no night shifts so that that fits.

[00:19:46] Emma Pickett: I cannot imagine how somebody can be a parent of a three, four, 5-year-old and do something as intense as being a police officer. You have absolutely my admiration, Jessica. 'cause what you, you do is so important. Such, such an important job. I mean, when you are going, even going through the training, going to police college, I mean you are, you are with people who have zero responsibilities.

No kids, they can absolutely just give it one their 100%. Mm-hmm. Did you find that the training process was kind of understanding of someone who had kids? How did you find that? 

[00:20:16] Jessica: It's funny because yes, there are a lot of young recruits, but the police tend to pride them, well, they tend to favor life experience in recruits.

So I know a lot of, a lot of, um, younger people who've applied get rejected because they don't have the experience that you need. Um, and uh, when I went to police college, there's a very mixed bag. There's some people who are in their late forties applying and there's some people who are, who are the younger side and don't have kids, but for the most part, there are.

I think, I'd say more than half of us have children. Um, so there is quite a, the police isn't, it's difficult, you know, the shifts are difficult with children, especially when you, you get rest days canceled to go for court and, you know, you can get held on duty for a hospital watch or, um, so it sometimes doesn't have the flexibility that, that you need with a young family.

But the police, they, they are not strangers to having cops that will have children. Okay. So 

[00:21:16] Emma Pickett: what you're saying about being held on duty, actually I was just gonna ask you about that. I can't imagine that if you're in the middle of dealing with an incident, especially if you know someone's got mental health issues or something quite extreme is going on, you can't go, oh, okay.

It's uh, you know, 6:00 PM now. If I go bye. I mean, how often do you get stuck somewhere? 

[00:21:32] Jessica: It used to happen a lot because. As we know, the police are very under-resourced at the moment, and you know, we're running on sometimes the bare minimum of cops that you need. And even if you've got one person having a mental health crisis that needs taken to the hospital, you'll have to sit with them until such a time as there's a free resource to relieve you.

That can mean that sometimes you're held on, um, sometimes you'll be stood outside because there's been a death outside and you're just there for hours. The scene and it's just the nature of the job. It doesn't happen every day or or every shift. And there's some weeks when it's worse than others and it's definitely worse on response.

But, um, yeah, it's part of the job that you just have to accept your, your hours will, will incur over time. 

[00:22:19] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:22:19] Jessica: And I guess luckily 

[00:22:20] Emma Pickett: you've got your, your mother-in-law was still local at that point, so she could help out if you needed extra support with, with with Nora.

I had love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got the story of Jesse's Milky, which is a picture book from two to six year olds that really tells the story of little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways. Maybe there'll be a new baby sister.

Maybe his mom will need to practice weaning. Maybe he will have a self weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end. That we are there to support them through all of them, and also we sometimes have needs too.

Also on endings, we have supporting the transition from breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child. There are also chapters on different individual situations like weaning an older child when there's still a baby, feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation.

Then we have supporting breastfeeding past the first six months and beyond. That's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond. What are the common challenges and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey.

Then we have the breast book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14 year olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is. I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives.

So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley press website. That's uk.jkp.com. Use the code mm PE 10. To get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful.

It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you.

Let's jump ahead to your second pregnancy and lovely, Harriet, who's, who's nearly two. Um, so you were pregnant on duty. And how does that work? Because obviously your safety is a huge issue. Mm-hmm. And I'm guessing things like uniform and I don't even know, stab proof vests. I mean, do they fit around pregnant bellies?

What, what's the sort of considerations when you're, when you're actually pregnant? 

[00:25:00] Jessica: So they tend to, once you declare that you're pregnant, which would be pretty soon on response, it's quite awkward because you, um, you don't wanna tell people you're pregnant too soon, but it kind of, you do because you can't deploy.

Um, so you would not be in uniform. I opted to remain with my shift. They do offer you a second. They offer you a move to a, like an office based post for your maternity. Um, I opted to remain with my shift, so I just did all the paperwork for the shift, which was actually really handy. 'cause that's a huge part of policing is trying to find time to submit all the paperwork.

So I was, whilst pregnant, I would stay in the office, but just anything that was coming in. For my colleagues, it would be me that did the paperwork. So I think it was for them at lost when I left because it meant they needed to start doing their own paperwork. So, but no, I liked it. I liked continued to run with the shift and getting to see what was happening, but I wasn't removed from it.

Okay. Removed from policing. 

[00:25:55] Emma Pickett: Okay. And then you had, period, tell us how your birth went and what was your early breastfeeding like? 

[00:26:01] Jessica: Oh. Birth was amazing. My, with Nora, I was hospital, but I planned a home birth with Harriet. Scotland's quite good for their home birth team. I had the most fantastic experience.

It was a very healing birth for me. My husband was here, we had a birth pool in the house and the two midwifes, and she was a great labor. Um, very quick. I think only a couple. I think she was three or four hours from, from when I was actually all, all going ahead and. Yeah, it was no complications. She was incredibly, um, yeah, it was a, a very rewarding experience.

I, I'm a huge advocate for it. 

[00:26:38] Emma Pickett: And was Nora around, how, how aware 

[00:26:41] Jessica: was Nora? So she, she was, she was initially, but I was in early labor overnight and kind of just left everyone to sleep. And it was only early hours, like when she was awake at seven, she was with me for a couple hours until I called my mother-in-law and said, oh, come and get her.

But she came to get her about nine and after she'd left, it was almost like my body was waiting for that final, like the pressure's off. And then it was like from nine until 12, and I had Harriet at 1204. So it was very quick. Uh, but Nora wasn't with me and, and departed me, does regret it because it was the most peaceful labor.

It was. Oh, it was, it was amazing. And she could have well been, but potentially for my mental. Having her not in the house was a, a bit of a relief. Yeah. So, yeah, she wasn't there. Um, yeah, it was a great birth one. Loved her, loved every minute. 

[00:27:31] Emma Pickett: Oh, that's nice to hear. And, and early breastfeeding, smooth sailing.

[00:27:35] Jessica: No, no. So I know, uh, her Dora was great. Dora was a, a different story and I expected that Harriet was, um. She didn't latch initially. She was, and I, I think they said it was because with a water burst, sometimes they're very sluggish. They don't have that like cold entry into the world and sometimes they take a little bit longer to work up the gumption to to nurse.

And she did eventually end up latching briefly and the midwives were satisfied that it was good enough for them to go. Um, home birth. Funny like that, you know, you're not being held in a hospital. It's kind of just like you're eating pizza in your own bed. So. You know, there's no, um, there's no feeling like you have to do something before someone will leave.

So the midwives were like, she's latched, we're happy with that. We'll go. We had a bit of an issue with her because the next day I had noticed Harriet's breathing was extremely rapid overnight, and she wasn't. It sounded like she was in a rem phase cycle all night, and I, her temperature was fine and she was otherwise fine.

She, yeah, I was quite concerned. So when the midwife came the next day, she was like, oh, she's doing great. And I said, but can you listen to her breathing for me, because it seems very elevated. And she did. And she said, oh, you're right. That is quite rapid. So they sent her in for an assessment at the hospital, and the minute that she was admitted, they said that she couldn't go home again because the breathing showed that she might be fighting an infection.

[00:29:01] Emma Pickett: Okay. And. 

[00:29:03] Jessica: After that, it kind of just spiraled. She was admitted to the nicu, um, then didn't ever find out what it was, but her blood test showed elevated white blood cells. Okay. Um. 

[00:29:15] Emma Pickett: Gosh, this sounds really scary, but, but what a testament to your maternal instinct. Crikey. I mean, I know in fact that the midwife went, no, I think she's okay.

And you were like, and you were like, no, come on you. That's amazing that your gut was like, no, no, no. This needs, this needs paying attention to, 

[00:29:29] Jessica: yeah. She, she had, um, she ended up, they couldn't source what was called, wasn't it? And they were worried. So they did a lumbar puncture on her when she was two days old, which was quite upsetting.

And she. During this whole time, like obviously there's the requirement for me to breastfeed her and like trying to establish a supply. But they did ask me, they said, do you want her to, for us to, you know, even if you express, we give her a bottle. And I said, every time she wakes up in the nicu, come and get me every time.

So I was myself with her. Like, I was obviously asked to stay just on account of your age, and the staff were incredible. But, um, it, it was challenging because. You're trying to get our breastfeeding established and we'd had that great first day, um, which would've held me in good stead and I'd had a great labor so I wasn't overly exhausted, although you are naturally.

But um, yeah, it was a stressful five days. They ended up just giving her several antibiotics and then found she was fine. 

[00:30:24] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:30:24] Jessica: Um, and she was, she was let go the Friday. So, no, the Monday, sorry. Then she was out, so she was five days old. 

[00:30:30] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:30:30] Jessica: When she was released. 

[00:30:31] Emma Pickett: Gosh, that's quite a lot going on, isn't it?

[00:30:33] Jessica: Mm-hmm. 

[00:30:34] Emma Pickett: Um, and obviously you're separated from Nora during that time as well, so it's a lot, lot happening. Um, 

[00:30:40] Jessica: oh, it was very stressful. Yeah. 

[00:30:41] Emma Pickett: And back home, she's back to normal in terms of her breathing. How, how did breastfeeding progress? 

[00:30:47] Jessica: Well, before she was released, the, the NICU doctor assessed her and said, I, I just wanna let you know, she has a tongue tie, A posterior tongue tie is, is quite obvious.

And I did ask, I said, was that needing revised? And she said, they don't revise tongue ties as as procedure anymore. Um, if it affects feeding. And obviously it was hard to separate with Harriet because she'd gone through a traumatic experience and she was nursing a lot. They gave me this form, this chart in the NICU to document how many times a child's nursed and from which side and how much volume.

And I was like, oh, I dunno. Like she's on there constantly. So it was hard to know, but it continued. She had really bad colic, um, and she was quite unsettled at the press. Like quite collary should pull on and off. I had quite a fast let down and this continued. For a long time, I think 10 weeks old, she was still really struggling.

There was a little bit of a clicking sound, but she was the fattest little baby and she was clearly thriving. So, 

[00:31:55] Emma Pickett: and you are okay. You're not in uncut discomfort or anything. You are? 

[00:31:58] Jessica: No. 

[00:31:58] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:31:59] Jessica: I had no pain, but she was, yeah, it was, it was, I was struggling because she was, I don't know if it, she was not as efficient feeding, so there was a lot, a lot of frequent nursing.

She was taking in a bit of air. There was a lot. Discomfort in the evening, especially because of that. So, um, the midwives, the doctors refused to refer her because they said she's thriving in every other way, um, gaining a lot of weight. She was really healthy and, um, we had to eventually go and have her assess privately, which we did, and the practitioner said.

It's quite a severe tongue tie, but, um, she is thriving, but he would recommend, uh, snipping it just because of the issues long term sometimes with speech development, tooth decay, you know, all that sort of thing. Um, so we did that just kind of proactively. And she was a different baby. Different baby. The colic stopped completely overnight.

The feeding was much more settled, relaxed. I was just frustrated that I didn't do that earlier. But you don't know. 

[00:33:04] Emma Pickett: No. And, and actually you followed the right support, the right advice if, if, if you are comfortable and there are no other breastfeeding outcomes. The idea about being unsettled in colony is such a difficult symptom to kind of define.

Mm-hmm. So, um, I mean, whoever was supporting you was technically following nice guidance. 'cause really nice guidance supports doing breastfeeding for breastfeeding out, um, doing a pH otomy for breastfeeding outcomes. So I'm glad that things were easier. 'cause 10 weeks of colicky symptoms and unsettled babies, pretty intense.

So months carried on and then you thought about going back to work. When did that decision come? 

[00:33:38] Jessica: So the police is great. We get a really long maternity pay. Um, and I went back when she was 14 months old. It was a great time to have off with her. So we established breastfeeding. You know, we've gone through the weaning process onto foods.

Um. And yeah, so I went back just after she was 14 months. And 

[00:33:56] Emma Pickett: you knew that you wanted to carry on, obviously you've gone on longer than you did with, with Nora. Mm-hmm. Was that a sort of conscious decision? Did you have a goal in mind, or you just thought, Hey, I'm just gonna start work, see how it goes? 

[00:34:07] Jessica: So I, with my, my birth experience, I just loved the whole process of trusting my body.

And it paid me in such a good stead. And with this, I've just enjoyed breastfeeding as much. And there's not been a point, like obviously I have ups and downs like any person where I think, oh, this is really draining, and I'm very touched out. But on the most part, I, I'm just really enjoying it. So there's not a huge drive for me to stop.

And I think I just listened to that. For me, there will come a point where I think, right, I'm ready to dial this back, but I've not yet hit that, that point. And she still really enjoys it. She gets a lot from it. So it was never for me a question of weaning her before I went back to work. It was just like, we'll just keep going and, and take it as it comes, because yeah, I just knew it's not gonna be the same as a newborn.

The challenges will be different, but she'll be older and we can adjust, uh, as needed. So yeah, we did that and 

[00:35:04] Emma Pickett: it's obviously worked brilliantly, so, so she's 14 months, you're going back to work. Are you going back to frontline straight away? How does, how does the return to work happen? 

[00:35:13] Jessica: Yeah, I mean, a lot of people come back flexible.

Um, I just went straight back. Um, I, I do enjoy my job, um, and I, I just wanted to get stuck back in, so I, I went full, full-time hours and initially was challenging, um, because my, obviously milk supply was quite used to having her with me all day, but I didn't struggle massively with engorgement or anything like that.

Yeah, there was no issues. There were some times when I was like, oh, I really need to get back home. But I didn't need to pump. There was no discomfort. Um, and I just kind of winged it really and it settled. 

[00:35:48] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you're back at work, but just, you obviously timed it just right that your milk supply was able to be adaptable because you talked about, you know, her being a super chunky baby.

I'm guessing with all that frequent feeding, you ended up having quite a lot of milk. So even four or five months prior to that, I'm, I'm just kind of imagining what anyone does when they go back to work and they've got a mega milk supply and their front line. I mean, do you 

[00:36:10] Jessica: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:36:11] Emma Pickett: I mean, people are pumping in the back of squad cars under sheets.

I mean, how does it work? 

[00:36:16] Jessica: To be honest, like I didn't even disclose to my, I mean, it probably doesn't even know now that I'm still breastfeeding. I just, not that I was keeping it a secret, I just thought, oh, you know, I didn't. I didn't wanna end up pumping at work. I just knew that it would settle down and I just kind of was like, right, well, my close colleagues would know and I just waited for it to settle and it did pretty rapidly.

Um, and now that she's that bit older. I don't have any issues with that whatsoever. Yeah. I actually, not even sure how much she's getting, but she seems to still enjoy it, so must be making something. 

[00:36:52] Emma Pickett: Well, it sounds like she's definitely enjoying it, so I reckon something's happening, so, yeah. Okay. So some practicalities then.

So do you know of anyone who's gone back pumping? Do you see anyone in your 

[00:37:02] Jessica: Yeah, um, I had a friend who was on response, but I think she wasn't deployable in the sense that it would be quite challenging because. If you were needing to stick to any sort of schedule, it's very difficult for a line manager to adjust that.

Sometimes you're away from the station for quite a while. You've not really got a base. There's sometimes, when you are out all day, it would be difficult for the to have that rigid schedule. So the likelihood is, if that was a requirement, I would have every confidence. The police would probably find you a different post temporarily that would give you that ability to do that.

If I had asked for that, that probably would have been facilitated, but. I didn't, 

[00:37:40] Emma Pickett: yeah. It wasn't something you needed. And, and your, your uniform fit, I mean, asking the 

[00:37:45] Jessica: Yeah, I've, yeah. I've never, I, I've unfortunately not very generously, um, proportion. So, um, there was no real change. Uh, vests are very, um, they're not comfortable anyway.

They're very heavy, but they've got like Velcro that adjust, um, and you just kind of let it out and win. But, um, yeah, it was. Just, just like 

[00:38:04] Emma Pickett: it should. So no engorgement or problems with, um, no. Okay. And then, okay. I'm gonna ask really a bunch of dumb questions, so feel free to tell me I'm sta Well, I mean, I'm obviously, my technology of the police f force is very much media and TV and film based.

[00:38:18] Jessica: Mm-hmm. 

[00:38:19] Emma Pickett: But I'm imagining that there are risks like needle stick injuries, like risks from people throwing substances at you. And, and I mean, how do you sort of negotiate all that in your, in your head? 

[00:38:31] Jessica: I mean, it's a risk anytime. Um, I've been lucky in that that's not ever happened to me. There's every risk.

It could. I've had colleagues that has happened to, I think you just try to mitigate the risk. Like, um, we we're given a lot of training on how to approach searching a person's body. You know, you're double gloving. You're using, we use an ample probe to pull out pockets. Like I think if you're very, if that's in your head, what's an A, did you say ample probe?

It's ample probe. It's like a, it's like tongs that you'd use to pull out, like down car seats, stuff like that. You're not sticking your hand. Okay. Places that you can't visually see. Of course there's people that are a bit more relaxed about it and I, I'm quite, just for my personal health, I'm quite like, right, I'm gonna get that.

I'm gonna be more cautious 'cause I've obviously gotta consider that I've got a child that's, you know, reliant on me in that aspect. So, but it is always a risk. Always a risk, 

[00:39:27] Emma Pickett: yeah. Yeah. And then I'm just also thinking kind of emotionally, and I mean, you obviously, you don't get into the line of work that you're in without having a certain mindset, but, mm.

I think sometimes when people become parents. The world feels a bit scarier. The world, you know, the mm-hmm. You don't wanna watch horror movies anymore, and you don't, you know, you're feel a bit more sensitive to what's out there, but you are seeing what's out there every flipping Yeah. Day of the week. Do you think you're just more robust as a result of that?

Or do you, are you, do you worry? I mean, how is your mental health in terms of feeling like protective towards the girls? 

[00:40:03] Jessica: I think, I think you're more grateful. When you see some of the situations that you walk into that you come home to the life that you do? I'm quite protective of my family. Um, there is, obviously I do still not, I'm a mom.

I think there's any police officer that would go to stuff that we deal with that can be quite traumatic, especially when it involves children. Um, I always to this day will still struggle, but there is a real hardening off in the police in your first couple years and that's unfortunate. Sometimes the way that you protect yourself, that that is work and you come home and, and your home is your home.

[00:40:38] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:40:39] Jessica: And it's almost like you have these two worlds with your feet in both of them. And you try and, you know, leave that at the door. And sometimes you're more successful than others. Every, every police officer's got a case or a number of cases that will simmer and their head. How could that have been dealt with differently?

Or how could I have done more or, but that's just the nature of the policing. But yeah, there is an inherent risk of, of trauma. Long term, the longer you're in the job and there's some people whose personalities that's not suited to. 

[00:41:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:41:07] Jessica: And there's some people who are naturally more resilient and I think I always advise people if I've ever tutored them.

If you find that you can't switch off or. Leave the stress or what you've seen out of your life, then this job's not for you. 

[00:41:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:41:25] Jessica: Because you need to be able to process it in a healthy manner. Otherwise it does affect you. 

[00:41:29] Emma Pickett: Well, I'm guessing there's only so much training can take you. There has to be something inherent in your personality as well to make it possible.

I mean, when you've got a 10-year-old girl and you've seen, I mean, you see some of the best that humans can offer because you see. Oh yeah. Fellow police officers and people who are out there helping and the com, you know, all the professionals that help everybody. And you also see the worst that that human nature can possibly offer.

[00:41:52] Jessica: Mm-hmm. 

[00:41:52] Emma Pickett: Do you think that Nora is a more kind of prepared 10-year-old than the average 10-year-old? Have you had conversations with her about, about safety and, and 

[00:42:01] Jessica: Yeah. I mean, she's quite, she's, she's very like me in, in her stature, but she's like my husband in, in his nature. She's a very softhearted.

Sensitive little soul as all, all little girls should be. But I do have, because we see a dark side often of the world, there is that fear. As a parent, you try and prepare your children for the environment that they're going into. Um, but also know that we, it's like when you work in the nicu, you deal with the most fragile babies, but that is not the condition for all babies.

You know, not all babies need that. You know, we will deal with a lot of. Dangerous, traumatic incidences, but that's not the reality for 90% of humanity's life. I mean, yourself, you might have very little contact with the police or you yourself may never see anything like that. It's just by nature of our job.

So it's, it's, I don't know if that's making sense, but I try and not say that that's the norm. 

[00:42:56] Emma Pickett: Yeah. It's so, yeah, you've, you've obviously got it in proportion because that's how, yeah, that's how you're able to do the job you're doing and, and you don't blow up that sense of risk and fear, and you obviously haven't infected her with any sort of over disproportionate fear, which is absolutely the way to deliver healthy life as a family.

I'm just imagining you finish finishing a shift. It's 1:00 AM you've come back through the door, you know you're about to climb into bed. Um, with Harriet, do you do anything to kind of chill when you get through the door, do you have any rituals to kind of switch off? 

[00:43:28] Jessica: So, no, because currently at the, at the moment, she's quite unsettled on the back shift, waiting for me to come in.

So I do still feel that pressure driving home, like I need to get home to her. And that's unreasonable because she's absolutely fine. But when I get in, sometimes I'll hear her talking to James, saying, mama, and he's saying, oh, she'll be home in a minute. So sometimes there's that pressure that just gets straight in my pajamas, straight into bed, and we have a cuddle.

And that's kind of my unwinding. I'm looking tonight, you know, probably after she's two. Uh, I don't, but then again, that's no guarantee that that will stop the waking. Um, that's quite normal for children. To wake up at night. So, um, that's not my reason for doing it. It's just more that I, I would like to at some point have her sleep with James all night and me sleep somewhere else or get a good night's sleep.

But, um, yeah, I tend to just get straight in with her, to be honest. Yeah. 

[00:44:21] Emma Pickett: And your brain's obviously able to do that, as you say, you've had that walling off kind of practice that your brain isn't, you're not. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Coming back in that adrenalized state because you're able to kind of process things as a professional.

Um, you mentioned that you've, um, been a, a tutor for other people now and more and mentoring other people. Any new moms that you've been looking after? 

[00:44:40] Jessica: Um, no, so, and not in my current role. Uh, my current role, there's a much smaller team. Um, there's only six of us. Um, response is about, there'll be a much bigger shift and in response you tend to, uh, someone who's just come in the door or work with somebody for a period of time.

But I'm not in this new role and there's, there's not been any other moms, new moms. That would be interesting though, if I could offer a different perspective. But no, I've not worked with any, any moms. 

[00:45:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, if someone actually, you know, chats about their breastfeeding and you can go, Hey, I'm still breastfeeding.

What a powerful thing that would be, how amazing that would be. 

[00:45:14] Jessica: Totally. 

[00:45:15] Emma Pickett: Um, so you mentioned that you're possibly considering night weaning, but other than that, going with the flow, just keeping going with the responsive feeding. 

[00:45:22] Jessica: I mean, I think at the moment, because she's two and she is having some big emotions, um, it is difficult because we've had, Nora was 10, we've had an eight year gap.

It's hard to remember how Nora was at two. So sometimes my husband, although he is the most supportive of my breastfeeding journey's, never told me to stop or said this is causing issues. Sometimes it's easy to, it's easy to think that she's very clingy, very mom centric because of the breastfeeding. I just remind him that no Nora was the exact same and it was nothing to do with that.

And actually the breastfeeding was quite a handy tool for me. Parenting, I'm reluctant to give it up. There are times when I feel quite taxed or drained, um, working full time and having the physical demands of breastfeeding, but it's not currently at the point where I think, oh, I might dial it back. I think it's just more a case of, um.

Seeing how we go. I take it month by month to be honest. 

[00:46:18] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah, that sounds very wise. And what's your plan with work? So you're doing this more community based work at the minute, what would you, where would you like to be in 10 years? 

[00:46:27] Jessica: Oh, I don't know. I'm really enjoying the job I'm in just now. Um, but potentially would look to go detective training would be probably a side step for me.

Um, but interest in world, um, and it's. A really valuable skillset rather than a lot of people promote them, go for promotion. But, um, I'd prefer the training in the other direction. It's, it's more, it's more, um, you deal with a lot more serious but interest in cases and that would be, I dunno, fascinating. So probably would do that.

Yeah. Fantastic. 

[00:47:02] Emma Pickett: Is it cheesy if I say thank you for your service? 'cause I do gen genuinely mean that 

[00:47:06] Jessica: people, people do say that and you think, oh, that's fine. It's fine. 

[00:47:11] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So, so my dad was living in Sterling when you were first a police officer, so you protected my dad. That's good. That's 

[00:47:17] Jessica: no, in some 

[00:47:17] Emma Pickett: ways no.

Did. Um, okay. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you want to make sure we mention? If anyone's listening to this and they're thinking of being a police officer or they all, they're on maternity leave as a police officer, what sort of things would you want 'em to know? Is there anything we haven't covered?

[00:47:31] Jessica: I think it would just be, um, to just take it as it comes and to not worry too much about how the shift work will fit in because it does children very adaptable and you can get quite overwhelmed when you're in your like ma maternity bubble. Of how is that gonna fit or work with my lifestyle? And often you wanna make a big decision about either we're weaning or we're not weaning, or, um, but it's easy enough to just take it one step at a time and see what works and what doesn't.

And 90% of the time, everything works out fine and you don't need to change anything. Um, and that's continued to be the way I go, is to just see if, if it becomes an issue, then I'll shift that. For the most part, you know, when you, with your newborn, it's hard to imagine what breastfeeding six month old looks like.

It's hard to imagine the demands of a 10 month old, but it changes every single month and you probably won't need to worry about it. Um, you don't need to shove the book at it, um, because yeah, it tends to just settle and yeah, I think we do like to fix things like, oh, I'm sleep training, I'm this or I'm that.

But a lot of the time it's just time. Passage of time. Yeah. I have to say to myself, this too shall pass. You know, if there's a pinch point you wanna, oh, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that. But it tends to just make your life a lot more stressful and moving yourself into a place of just acceptance. You know, this is a tough point, but next week it'll be something else and the next week will be something else.

And that's tends to be how I go. Takes a lot of the pressure off you. 

[00:49:01] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Gosh, wise words, Jessica, absolutely. Wise words. And actually that, that sort of attitude just means that you are just so much more. Relaxed about things. Mm-hmm. Not feeling like everything's under your control. Not feeling as though you ha you have to make changes is absolutely the way to go if it's possible.

[00:49:18] Jessica: And, and I, I would say just to and for myself is that with Nora, I did to a very structured parenting approach and it made it very difficult for me breastfeeding. With Harriet. Uh, my approach from the beginning was like, well, how can I make the breastfeeding journey easier? You know, we straight to co-sleep in, we still share a bed.

My husband's in his own in our room. Um, he snores horrifically, so I'm in no rush to return. Um, so we've got, we never did a big nursery. We've got a size bed on the floor. You know, we didn't do any of the fancy doing that in the nursery doing that. This, it was just, we've got a spare room that's comfortable.

It's a cozy room. Breastfeeding her are easier to just be right there. I was less tired. I didn't clock watch. Um, so it's like if, if your lifestyle is more suited to that, if that's your breastfeeding's important to you, setting yourself up for success and not having to trips across the land and every time your baby wakes and then, you know, that'll force you to be tired and wanna fix it.

And so yeah, I just kinda, I tried to make that first year as comfortable, less stressful, no pressure as possible. 

[00:50:24] Emma Pickett: And it's definitely works. I would 

[00:50:25] Jessica: definitely advise that. 

[00:50:26] Emma Pickett: Well, it's actually worked for you. I mean, you're doing one of the most stressful jobs a human being can do full time while co-sleeping and night feeding a 2-year-old.

And it, and that's because of your, 

[00:50:35] Jessica: the 

[00:50:36] Emma Pickett: lifestyle. Yeah. Just the choices you've made as a parent and the way that you've, and you know, you don't think, oh my God, I'm failing. Oh my God, I need to fix my daughter. You, because you've got that acceptance. That means that your, your mental health is where it is and, and it's working.

[00:50:49] Jessica: Yeah. I think, uh, I always said that like, you look at these videos, I always watch them like the monkeys on Facebook and they just, there's no outside influence. They're just feeding their baby and no one's, there's no like, well, I wonder if I'm doing this right. I wanna, and I'm just thinking at some in our core, we know what to do.

So stripping back all of that to just me and her, and that's just. Paid me great. Stayed at my parenting journey. I haven't been fighting those internal battles. I'm not trolling Google. And yeah, there's been the odd occasion where I'm like, this is really hard because it is hard. But when you remove that, the other stuff, you know, the expectations, um, the schedules, the timed nursing, like you just roll with it responsibly feed, because that's ultimately, that's just mothering, you know, in its most natural sense.

And there's a real gift in that, so I just tend to just go with that. 

[00:51:44] Emma Pickett: Wise words. Thank you very much for sharing that Jessica. I really appreciate your time today. Thank you so much. 

[00:51:50] Jessica: No, 

[00:51:50] Emma Pickett: you're fine. Very best of luck with, with the next stages and, and if you do go down the night weaning route, let me know how it goes.

'cause I'll be curious to know. 

[00:51:57] Jessica: I'll let you know. I'm sure she'll love that. But take it as, yeah, 

[00:52:00] Emma Pickett: what you said. You may not even get there, but if you do decide to get there. Exactly. 

[00:52:03] Jessica: I hope it goes well. Thanks so much. I appreciate speaking.

[00:52:11] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well, get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.