Isabella's story - tandem feeding and tandem weaning

Today  I’m talking to the lovely Isabella from near Vienna, Austria, about breastfeeding her two sons, Jonathan (2½) and Valentin (1). Isabella describes generally good breastfeeding support and mixed feeding norms in Austria, and how her early postpartum pain settled with midwife help. She became pregnant unexpectedly when Jonathan was 10 months old while using natural family planning, and assumed she should wean. She made several attempts but didn’t feel committed to a process that was complicated by bottle refusal and a lack of weaning information. After hearing positive tandem-feeding stories from this podcast, she resumed breastfeeding late in pregnancy when Jonathan was distressed and ill, then tandem fed after Valentin’s birth. This time lactation started easily and she managed nights with family bed-sharing and support from her husband. Isabella eventually weaned Jonathan gradually at 2, starting with night weaning and dropping “set” feeds, while continuing to breastfeed Valentin to this day.

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, by going to https://bit.ly/JKPbooks and using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

Resources mentioned - 

Loving Comfort book in English (und auf Deutsch) https://www.juliedillemuth.com/loving-comfort 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, 

breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. 

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm talking to Isabella, who is near Vienna in Austria, and we're gonna be talking about her journey breastfeeding her two sons.

Isabella, thanks so much for joining me today. Can I be a bit cheeky and just get you to pronounce your surname for me because I'm, I'm really bad at, at German speaking surnames. 

[00:01:04] Isabella: It's, and I admit it's a long and complicated 

[00:01:09] Emma Pickett: one. No, it's com it's an absolutely standard ordinary name, but I'm just rubbish at pronouncing German names and want to make sure I hear you do it properly.

So we're talking about your breastfeeding journeys with your, with your two lovely boys, Jonathan and Valentin. Tell me about your, your family. Who have you got? 

[00:01:24] Isabella: Yeah. First of all, thanks for, uh, having me here. So there is Jonathan who is now two and a half, but more, and there is Valentin, who is now a bit more than one year.

Uh, and. Yeah, I always hoped that I would be able to breastfeed my, my first baby. I hoped that it would, that would work. And it turned out that it worked really well with, with some minor struggles in the beginning. But then, uh, we had a really, really good, uh, breastfeeding experience. And then I found out that I was pregnant again, uh, when Jonathan was only.

10 months old. Okay. 

[00:01:59] Emma Pickett: Okay. Right. Stop there. Let's don't, don't give it all away at the beginning. We need to spread these things out. Um, okay. So we're gonna hear in a minute about your journey and, and finding out you're pregnant and breastfeeding through pregnancy, which I think is always really valuable for people to hear.

Before we hear about that, tell us a little bit about what breastfeeding's like in, in Austria, what's the sort of situation with breastfeeding and and breastfeeding culture? Do you know other people breastfeeding beyond babyhood? What's the breastfeeding support like? 

[00:02:26] Isabella: So basically there is both. I would say there is, you know, everything's accepted.

I think at least in my, uh, surrounding my friends family there is. I have friends who, who breastfeed beyond two years, uh, or even longer. And I have friends who bottle feed or, or stop breastfeeding after four months, for example. So there is basically everything. And yeah, so there is, and I also got a lot of support at the hospital when my first son was born and already before.

So there is you, you have access to, I would say to good. Uh, support if you want to breastfeed. 

[00:03:02] Emma Pickett: That's nice to hear. Not always a positive story for everybody, so that's, that's great to hear. And do you have a, a private health system, a state-based health system? What's the story? 

[00:03:12] Isabella: Both. Um, but yeah, so, so with my first son, I only had the, the state, uh, health system.

And now for different reasons, we decided to also have a private. System, but basically you get quite far with only the, the, the state health system. 

[00:03:30] Emma Pickett: Okay. And you mentioned that breastfeeding is something you'd always wanted to do and that was something that was important to you. What, where did that come from?

Was that about family? Where did that come from? 

[00:03:37] Isabella: So I'm the oldest sister of three children, and so I experienced, especially with my brother who is seven years younger, I remember that he was breastfed for 18 months. And for me there was just. You know, the, the standard somehow and maybe bottles afterwards.

But if it worked, then that would just be, you know, the way. 

[00:03:59] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I always thought. Fantastic. That's such a, a great age to see that. So a little, a little 7-year-old girl, sort of seven to eight and a half to see breastfeeding in front of you. Just before your own breasts turn up. What, how powerful that is.

I think we, wouldn't it be great if we could hire breastfeeding families to go and visit 88-year-old girls all around the world? So every eight year, every 8-year-old girl grew up around watching breastfeeding. That that's super powerful. And presumably that also meant that you had the support of your mom if, when your breastfeeding journey happened as well.

[00:04:29] Isabella: Yeah. It was even my mom who, who brought me a, you know, secondhand book on breastfeeding when I was pregnant for the first time. And it turned out to be a really, really good book. Oh, 

[00:04:38] Emma Pickett: okay. 

[00:04:38] Isabella: Very, with very practical, uh, tips. So I even took it to the hospital and, and studied it. 

[00:04:45] Emma Pickett: Oh, fantastic. Was that the book that she'd used herself when she was pregnant?

[00:04:49] Isabella: Uh, no, I think she just found it somewhere. 

[00:04:51] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:04:51] Isabella: In, in an open bookshelf. 

[00:04:53] Emma Pickett: This is what we like to hear. So, so tell us about Jonathan. Tell us about your birth. Tell us about your early breastfeeding experiences with him. 

[00:04:59] Isabella: So the birth was long, uh, and exhausting, but a very positive experience anyway for me.

And we had a really good start breastfeeding. It was, I had some pain in the first week, in the first few days, a light fever, and then I, but my midwife helped me and then after a few days it was, it was good. But I remember thinking. This is so hard. Like, how do I hold him? How, how can I make this work? And I remember once being on the train, and I saw a woman who fed her baby and, you know, holding him with one hand, and then she was standing up and with the other hand, she, she got something from the shelf above.

Oh my goodness. 

[00:05:35] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:05:36] Isabella: Oh my God. I, I was here with my three week old baby and like, how could you ever move like this when you're breastfeeding? And then a few months later, it was me doing the same thing. So, um, yeah, I had a really. I would say really a very good start to breastfeeding. 

[00:05:51] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. 

[00:05:52] Isabella: And, um, yeah, we kept it going, going, going.

And then it somehow changed a bit when I was pregnant again, and I thought now I have to, we 

[00:06:02] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. Let's tell, tell me a bit more about your pregnancy. Mm-hmm. So if I'm asking questions that are too private, feel, tell, feel free to tell me to, to get stuff. But were you expecting to get pregnant again?

'cause that your, your fertility returned quite soon, didn't it? 

[00:06:15] Isabella: Yeah. So. That was a surprise. And, um, I was used to, uh, doing, you know, natural, what's that? Nf, natural Family Planning. Okay. Yeah. 

[00:06:26] Emma Pickett: Natural family planning is a little bit challenging when you're breastfeeding, isn't it? Because all the normal measurements and tools that you use Yeah.

Kind of go out the window a little bit and, and obviously we get the message that breastfeeding under six months has contraceptive properties, and, and as long as you're following all the, the, the LAM lactational AMIA method techniques and, you know, feeding responsibly and feeding through the night and not giving bottles and not giving dummies, you do.

Have equivalent contraception to taking hormonal contraception. But then obviously you got beyond six months and you were trying, were you to, to measure cycles and keep an eye on fluids and things? 

[00:07:02] Isabella: Yes, exactly. And I thought, because I always had a really like, um, regular rhythm I irregular cycle. 

Okay.

[00:07:10] Isabella: And I thought it had came back, but it hadn't. And then, yeah. There we were fine. We, we always wanted a second child. Okay. And we wanted a, a close age gap between them, so it was. We were really happy. Okay. But, but it also bit of a surprise. It was a surprise. It took a while to, to get, get used to. 

[00:07:29] Emma Pickett: So you thought your cycle had returned and you thought you were starting to track, but actually you missed timed ovulation and, and, and essentially got pregnant when you weren't expecting to.

But although Hap happily worked out the lovely Valentines Yeah. Came to join us. So it's a good thing in the end, but must, and 

[00:07:44] Isabella: we really happy 

[00:07:44] Emma Pickett: must have been a bit of a shock. So when you're breastfeeding really matters to you and you're breastfeeding a 1-year-old. And that's, that is quite a surprise when, when you suddenly find you're pregnant, do you remember, how did you know you were pregnant if your cycle wasn't regular?

How did you, did you just have a gut feeling what was going on? 

[00:08:01] Isabella: Yeah, somehow I had a gut feeling and then the, the cycle just, it was way too long. And lo it, uh, um, yeah, it got long and long and long and I found out that I was pregnant pretty late because I was always still waiting for, um, for the period to come.

Okay. Uh, so I think I found out around week. Six or seven, which is much later than I found out for the first time. Yeah. 

[00:08:25] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:08:25] Isabella: By then I had the, you know that I was a bit suspecting. 

[00:08:29] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:08:30] Isabella: There was something. 

[00:08:31] Emma Pickett: Were you noticing changes to your breastfeeding already? Some people do notice very quick. No changes to supply.

No, 

[00:08:36] Isabella: not at 

[00:08:37] Emma Pickett: all. Okay. 

[00:08:37] Isabella: No. 

[00:08:38] Emma Pickett: So what was, I mean, it's a bit difficult to remember everything I appreciate, but when you were around the time you got pregnant with Valentine, what was a typical day of breastfeeding like for Jonathan? Was he still breastfeeding through the night? What was the sort of typical pattern 

[00:08:50] Isabella: night?

Yes. Yeah. So going to bed, it was also going for his afternoon nap. So whenever he was going to sleep, uh, I breastfed or we, we breastfed. And then during the day, I don't really remember, it was sometimes more, sometimes less. And so. He was already eating quite well, I would say. Okay. But we still, I, I thought breastfeeding, you know, it's so practical when we're out and about, uh, to have this, this possibility.

So it was not, um, uh, like a must anymore, at least during the day. But we were so used to it and he was so used to it as well. 

[00:09:28] Emma Pickett: And if you hadn't have got pregnant, what do you think your breastfeeding goals would've been? Did you have a plan for how long you were gonna breastfeed him? 

[00:09:36] Isabella: Not at all. Like my plan was just to not to stop before there was a really good reason for me or for him, you know?

So if, if he would've said, at six months I don't want it anymore, then I would've, I guess I would've been fine with it. Or if I would've maybe gotten really weak or something like this, 

[00:09:55] Emma Pickett: okay, 

[00:09:55] Isabella: then I could imagine that I would have, that this would. It would've been a reason to to stop, but I have no idea how long I would've breastfed when I wouldn't have been pregnant again.

[00:10:07] Emma Pickett: So you got pregnant and what did you decide to do about breastfeeding? How did breastfeeding go after that? What were your plans? 

[00:10:14] Isabella: There were no problems about breastfeeding. It was just in my head, you know, um, something like, there will be a second baby now. At the beginning of the pregnancy, it's probably a good, uh, time to, to wean.

Now, the older, the older child and I had many positive stories around me from friends and family of. Breastfeeding one child, but no story of tandem feeding. That was, I've heard about it that this exists, but I never saw it for me before. 

[00:10:46] Emma Pickett: Okay. So no models of it, nothing to kind of, to model yourself on.

And, and from what you're saying, your assumption was that you weren't going to tandem feed, you just assumed that you'd be weaning Jonathan. 

[00:10:57] Isabella: Yeah. 

[00:10:58] Emma Pickett: And you assumed that you'd be weaning him at the beginning of your pregnancy? 

[00:11:01] Isabella: Yes. Right. 

[00:11:02] Emma Pickett: But spoiler alert you, you didn't. So, so what happened? How, tell us about how you went through that decision and how that wasn't what you ended up doing.

[00:11:10] Isabella: Yeah, so I tried, I, I had several, several, uh, tries of, of weaning. First was really early when he was 11 months old. So, um, pretty soon after I found out I was pregnant and he was really, you know, crying and it was so hard and I thought, no. Doesn't feel right for me, we will postpone. 

[00:11:28] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That is a very difficult age, I have to say.

When people sometimes ask me what is the hardest age to wean, I say, well, actually it's hard to generalize because every child's different. Mm-hmm. And it depends on what the parent's motivation is. But if you're gonna pin me down, I would say between about 11 and 13 months is actually one of the hardest age.

Really? Mm-hmm. 'cause there is no chance of them understanding what's happening. There is no communication possible. They're old enough to have an emotional connection as well as a nutritional connection and they're also feeding a heck of a lot. So it's, it's really, really hard 'cause they can't be a partner in the process at all.

So you were, you were trying and he was just very distressed. Is that what was happening? 

[00:12:05] Isabella: Yes. Yeah. And it was summer, so I think this also played a role that I was, you know, dressed in light t-shirts. There was, the access was also so, so easy, you know? Okay. And, um, and then I started to, to work again, and I thought, okay, now it's not the right time to, so 

[00:12:23] Emma Pickett: you 

[00:12:23] Isabella: went back to work 

[00:12:24] Emma Pickett: while you were pregnant?

[00:12:25] Isabella: Yes. 

[00:12:26] Emma Pickett: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:26] Isabella: But only, yeah, for three days a week. So not, not so much, but it was a, it was. Change for, for both of us. So I thought now weaning is, is not a good thing because I realized he, he needed to breastfeeding more again. 

[00:12:41] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:12:41] Isabella: And then we started another try I think two months later. 

[00:12:46] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you're now, what, three or four months pregnant at this point?

If four 

[00:12:50] Isabella: more, like 

[00:12:50] Emma Pickett: four 

[00:12:51] Isabella: months. 

[00:12:51] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:12:51] Isabella: Mm-hmm. 

[00:12:52] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:12:52] Isabella: Yeah. And he was, again, very, very distressed. But we had a, got a bit further with him accepting the bottle. At least with water and a little bit of milk. And so we, yeah, we went on trying and I, I got a, that was around the time when I found your podcast, actually, I think it was around when I was five, six months pregnant.

And for the first time I got some positive, um, stories about tandem feeling and, and, uh, I remember I was so relieved also when I heard this episode where you sum up different studies and then there's this interview and I heard it in a thought. Maybe it's not. So, you know, it was like, um, um, like something we really had to achieve, but it felt so bad at the same time and then I was so relieved and I thought, you know, we can still try to win and if we don't.

Make it, it, it's not, maybe not a problem or maybe it's really an option. It, it, it got, suddenly it, it, I had it as an alternative or as an, as, even an option in my head. 

[00:13:53] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you hadn't really given yourself the possibility of tandem feeding and, and, and listening to other people's experiences kind of opened that up as an option for you.

I'm just curious a little bit about what you're saying with if weaning worked, if weaning was possible, and I'm, I'm trying to work out the right way to say this because obviously. You could have chosen to end breastfeeding despite his distress. You could have said, no, my love, I'm sorry. We're not gonna tandem feed.

We're gonna end breastfeeding. You could have weaned with your partner with doing night times. You could have, you could have held that boundary. You could have held that line. And the fact his distress was. Enough for you not to want to push forward. Makes me wonder whether you were either not quite sure how to wean and not getting much information about weaning methods or also, or somewhere deep down you didn't necessarily want to stop breastfeeding anyway.

[00:14:47] Isabella: Yeah, I think it was both. So I had definitely the feeling that there is a lot of support for starting breastfeeding. I was, I felt really informed about my breastfeeding start, but then weaning. Suddenly there was this gap of information and also it's so individual. I think maybe that's the, the reason it's so different for everybody.

There's not this recipe. 

[00:15:08] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I think under 18 months, I mean, people will be telling you, my resources doesn't, I don't have a lot of information in my resources about under 18 months because there is such a range of individual children's relationships to the breasts. So that's why I, I do talk about it in, in my book and I have to done a few.

Podcast references to it, but I don't do in-depth episodes because at this age there is such a variation. I mean, some 14 month olds will breastfeed morning and evening. They're not that fast. They don't have an emotional connection to it. Others will literally be feeding like newborns, so you can't really have a standardized approach.

Um, for this age group, do you remember, what were you trying to do to, to wean him? 

[00:15:46] Isabella: I don't remember really. I think it was, I just tried to, you know, instead of when, when I. Realized he wanted to breastfeed then to, I don't know, try a different way just without feeding, but I'm, 

[00:16:00] Emma Pickett: okay, so let's role play anymore.

Are you ready, Isabella? Let's role play. No, I won't speak German, but let's role play. It's two o'clock in the afternoon. Jonathan is not napping. He's finished his nap for the day. He wakes up, he wants to breastfeed. What do you say to him? 

[00:16:15] Isabella: Uh, to be honest. I don't remember about this time. And I think because I didn't try so hard back then.

Okay. It, I, I rem what I remember is in the evening I tried to offer him the bottle instead of the breast. 

[00:16:29] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:16:29] Isabella: And he refused. And then for me it was somehow like, okay, then 

[00:16:34] Emma Pickett: okay, 

[00:16:34] Isabella: this won't work. And also at night I tried to give him the bottle instead of the breast. And so maybe it was. Yeah, at night, probably not the, anyway, not the, the right approach to, to start that in the evening and maybe during the day he wasn't feeding anymore.

And I think by then the milk was also gone. You know, he was dry nursing, so he was maybe during the day not even drinking milk anymore. Could be. I'm not so sure about this. 

[00:17:01] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean that would make sense. If you're kinda halfway through your pregnancy, your colostrum will have arrived at about the halfway point.

It sounds as though you assumed that the way to wean was to substitute a breastfeed for a bottle feed. That was what you thought you should do. And if he's asking him to feed in the day, and it's probably more about connection, you know, presenting a bottle, he's just gonna go, Nope. Um, and it just, that wasn't gonna work.

And even at nighttime, although there may be some element of nutrition, it's often about connection and, and being emotionally regulated and going back to sleep and you just wasn't interested. So, so bottle refusal. Became the failure of weaning, if you like. That's, that's how Wean weaning failed. Mm-hmm.

Okay. So you had your epiphany and you decided you wanted to continue with breastfeeding 

[00:17:45] Isabella: mm-hmm. 

[00:17:46] Emma Pickett: With confidence, or were you still a little bit nervous that that was gonna be unworkable? 

[00:17:51] Isabella: Well, uh, there's another chapter to, to this whole story. I went on offering him the bottle, and suddenly in December, I was seven months pregnant.

Uh, we didn't breastfeed for a month. 

[00:18:07] Emma Pickett: Oh, yes, I remember you saying in your email. 

[00:18:08] Isabella: So, 

[00:18:09] Emma Pickett: so, 

[00:18:10] Isabella: so I thought you thought that was it. Oh, well, I was unsure. I have to, I have to be honest because it was two months before the, my due date. So, and somewhere I had read that if you wean before a, a birth, it should be like minimum two months before, and we were really there and I probably, he would've started afterwards again.

But then he was very sick a month later and then he was crying so much and I, I offered him the breast again. 

[00:18:38] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:18:39] Isabella: And I just couldn't help myself and it felt so right again and with all the knowledge now that tannin feeding was an option and, um, I had still. Like kept it open for myself how we would go on, but somehow I left the choice to my son I would 

[00:18:57] Emma Pickett: say.

Okay, that's lovely. So, '

[00:18:59] Isabella: cause I was okay then with, anyway. 

[00:19:01] Emma Pickett: Okay, so let me just recap then. So you're seven months pregnant, he's probably with dry nursing anyway at this point. Yeah. You had continued with bottles, and bottles started to kind of click with him. He started to be more interested. 

[00:19:14] Isabella: Yeah. 

[00:19:14] Emma Pickett: Um, and then.

Stopped breastfeeding, which, which, mm-hmm. I guess at that point felt okay. 'cause you knew your baby was coming imminently and you'd always had a little bit of mixed feelings around whether you're gonna tandem feed anyway. Then when he wasn't well, that was what sort of high temperature not eating. 

[00:19:31] Isabella: Yeah, it was like a bad cold.

It was January and, and I think he felt that something was going on. I was really also, you know, worrying about the birth. My head was, you know, full and I, I think somehow this transition to him. 

[00:19:48] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:19:48] Isabella: Is that how to say it? Yeah. So there, there was many things. So he was sick and, and he felt that something was off and then.

Somehow we, yeah, we, we ended up breastfeeding again and it felt good, but I also felt some kind of, you know, that like a defeat. 

[00:20:05] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:20:05] Isabella: A little bit, because I thought we had 

[00:20:07] Emma Pickett: you, you thought, thought you closed the door, you'd pro you'd processed it. You thought that was the end. Yeah. And now the doors reopened and, and I guess it's uncertainty, isn't it?

As much as anything. You dunno what the future's gonna be like. 

[00:20:17] Isabella: Yeah. Then really then I knew, okay, now we are tandem feeding. So then it was clear to me. Okay. But it felt okay, you know, it was like. Now the decision has been made and it's, it's fine and I'm fine with 

[00:20:27] Emma Pickett: it. Okay. Can I take, can I take you back to that moment when you are eight months pregnant and you offer the breast again?

Do you remember what was going through your mind when you offered it? Did it happen sort of very consciously or almost without realizing you had 

[00:20:40] Isabella: very conscious, no, very c like a little bit out of helplessness because he was very, very distressed and, and. It seemed like this was the only way to, to calm him down.

And that happened twice. So once I thought, okay, that might be a, you know, just once, but then it was twice. And, and then I thought, okay, we, we just go this way. It, it's, it's fine and it feels better. 

[00:21:05] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:21:06] Isabella: And so it was very conscious decision. 

[00:21:07] Emma Pickett: Okay. And he then carried on feeding more frequently after that, towards the end of the pregnancy.

So for the last month, what was a typical 24 hours for him? 

[00:21:15] Isabella: Yeah. Mainly in the evening. And a few times during the night as well. 

[00:21:21] Emma Pickett: Oh, wow. So he really, really resumed. He really went for it. Okay. 

[00:21:24] Isabella: Yeah. Okay. 

[00:21:24] Emma Pickett: Mm-hmm. 

[00:21:26] Isabella: I, I think so. And, and also after waking up in the afternoon, this was a very important time for him.

[00:21:30] Emma Pickett: Okay. So that, that month when he wasn't breastfeeding, that, that month when you thought you'd close the door on, on his breastfeeding journey 

[00:21:37] Isabella: mm-hmm. 

[00:21:38] Emma Pickett: Was he still waking during the night? Do you remember what was happening? 

[00:21:42] Isabella: Yes. He was waking during night and he was very, you know, um, he needed a lot of.

Contact, body contact. He was, his arms were all over me. And, and, and, um, so he had the bottle, but he also needed a lot of, you know, replacing this, the close, the closeness or the, you 

[00:21:58] Emma Pickett: know, so it wasn't necessarily an easier life anyway, I'm just, I'm just worried that you were sleeping fantastically and then the last month of pregnancy suddenly never 

[00:22:07] Isabella: got 

[00:22:07] Emma Pickett: used to that.

Okay. Well, I'm sort of happy for you and also sort of sad for you. Okay. So you're eight months pregnant. He's back to breastfeeding. He's breastfeeding in the evenings. Did your family think he'd stopped? I'm just wondering what your partner thought. What, what your, what your mom thought. 

[00:22:21] Isabella: They were all like, oh, you know, just that's how it is.

And even my grandma, I thought maybe she would, she would have a different opinion, I thought, but then even she said, um, oh, but he's still so young, so just, just go on. And everybody was really, um, that's 

[00:22:38] Emma Pickett: great. 

[00:22:38] Isabella: Like, yeah. So everybody was so understanding and that was also something. That I thought I had, I should win.

Because maybe of what people around me think or say because it's the, the accepted or the general opinion. But then everybody was really supportive. I never got any negative comments on, um, on how we, how we decided. 

[00:23:01] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:23:01] Isabella: Uh, to, to handle. 

[00:23:02] Emma Pickett: Well, that's great to hear and lovely to imagine you, your granny being supportive as well.

That's that's lovely. Yeah. So pregnancy continues, you're getting close to Valentine's birth. What kind of birth did you want to have and where was Jonathan going to be during your birth? 

[00:23:16] Isabella: So, um, my mom who so, so Jonathan loves my mom, and, and, um, I hope that it, because she lives two hours away from us and I hope that it would work out that she can come and, uh, be here during the birth.

And it worked out, uh, luckily. So that was, I knew he was in, in, uh, in good hands, so to say. I could even put him to bed. And then, um. The like labor started, or I was already feeling something is happening and that it was a very, very quick birth. That time that we just made it to hospital. I have to say, actually my mom said, you know, for me, the second birth was really fast.

Rather go now. And then we went to the hospital and because I, I felt it wasn't so bad that time we went to the hospital and I think 45 minutes later he was, wow. Okay. He was born. So 

[00:24:09] Emma Pickett: that definitely could have been a birth in the, in the living room. 

[00:24:11] Isabella: Yep.

[00:24:15] Emma Pickett: I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got the story of Jesse's Milky, which is a picture book from two to six year olds. That really tells the story of Little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways. Maybe there'll be a new baby sister.

Maybe his mom will need to practice parenthood weaning. Maybe he will have a self weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we are there to support them through all of them. And also we sometimes have needs too.

Also on endings, we have supporting the transition from breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child. There are also chapters on different individual situations like weaning an older child when there's still a baby, feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation.

Then we have supporting breastfeeding past the first six months and beyond. That's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond. What are the common challenges and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey.

Then we have the breast book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14 year olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is. I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives.

So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley press website. That's uk.jkp.com. Use the code mm PE 10. To get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful.

It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you.

So, so Valentine was, was born and what was his early breastfeeding like? 

[00:26:26] Isabella: Really good. And that's actually, I have to say, because I struggled a little bit the first time. The second time, I had no problems at all. Nothing hurt. And I thought that's probably because Jonathan is still feeding and I'm still, um, you know, in, in this process.

And I had. No problems at all with the, you know, lactation start. Is that how you say it? Uh, I remember the midwife in the hospital. She, she, there was a group of students and, and she asked me if she can show them, like she said, that's the perfect example of, um, of a lactation start. That's how the breast should look like.

Aw. She showed them because there were other women who had, um, some serious problems. 

[00:27:04] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:27:04] Isabella: And for me it was really, really good and. I was so happy, I thought, okay. I think this t feeding, there are a lot of, um, advantages also. 

[00:27:14] Emma Pickett: Okay, so you're in the hospital doing the super feed that's being observed as a demonstration feed.

Did, did Jonathan come and visit you in hospital? What do you remember of the first time they met? How did that go? 

[00:27:24] Isabella: So we did not have, uh, like Instagram, oh, here's my cute little baby brother moment. He was more like, oh, here's my mom. 

[00:27:32] Emma Pickett: Oh, well that's good. That makes more sense. 

[00:27:34] Isabella: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, so it was okay.

It was really okay. He met the baby. I think he was a bit confused, like, where are we? He was. 18 months and two weeks. Okay. Then, so it was more like a wise mom in this bed. And, and, and then he, he, he fed i, I, I fed him. And only afterwards I thought, oh my God, should I have cleaned, you know, my breasts in between?

Do I need to clean my breasts? And that was one thing I Googled right away. And 

[00:28:00] Emma Pickett: what did Google tell you? Just to clarify for 

anybody? 

[00:28:03] Isabella: I don't, I don't need to. You don't need need to because, um, even if one of them is sick, they will anyway, exchange all the, the, uh, viruses. 

[00:28:12] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And then actually there's an advantage to that as much as anything.

I mean, yeah, they're gonna come across the same pathogens and, and, um, the idea of washing breasts, we don't really want to wash breasts because breasts have their natural processes and all the natural glands that produce all the loveless, lovely, spacious fluids. They know what they're doing. And if someone was to wash between every single breastfeed, um, you're probably gonna do awful things to your skin as much as anything.

And is yeah, not, not necessary. There are, there are maybe a couple of times when we're gonna pay a bit more attention. So if a toddler had a, you know, a herpes sore or a cold sore. We might pay a bit more attention to sharing the breast. Um, but there really are so minimal, like, you know, things that we need to worry about.

So, Jonathan Fed, how did it feel to feed Big Jonathan with Tiny Baby Valentine nearby? Some people say it feels really odd the first time because the, the older baby F looks really big, but I guess he wasn't that big, so maybe it didn't look too bad. 

[00:29:10] Isabella: He wasn't One thing I remember, but that was not connected to breastfeeding is one eye.

I took him out of the, the stroller and I thought. He's hanging somewhere because he was so heavy. Just 

[00:29:23] Emma Pickett: Oh, you 

[00:29:23] Isabella: thought he was holding on? 

[00:29:24] Emma Pickett: Just, 

[00:29:25] Isabella: yeah. Um, so I realized that like he's heavier, but, but breastfeeding, it felt so normal because it was such a natural and normal thing for us. 

[00:29:36] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. And did you have plans for what you wanted the breastfeeding journey to look like?

Like were you somebody who thought, okay, I'm only gonna feed Jonathan at this time of day, or were you happy to kind of be responsive? What did you do? 

[00:29:47] Isabella: So my approach was always like. Make it as easy as possible for all of us, so try out what works. We had some tries at night where we thought, okay, Jonathan should sleep with his dad now in the room.

And, um, his dad would bring him over when he woke up or would try to, to calm him, and this did not work at all. So, um, we ended up that my, my husband always brought him to our bed where I was sleeping with Valentine, and then I would feed both of them, but not at the same time. At some point, also, even at the same time, because sometimes it would just be the easier way.

Yeah. So in the beginning then, when Valentine woke up more often still. I then went with valet into another room and my husband came to my to John, Jonathan again. So the first weeks are really 

[00:30:40] Emma Pickett: lots of bed swapping, lots of moving around. Yes. Okay. So 

[00:30:43] Isabella: crazy. 

[00:30:44] Emma Pickett: So let's imagine then, so you start the night with your newborn.

Your husband starts the night with Jonathan in another room. At some point, he'll, Jonathan will be brought through to you, but when Jonathan settled, you might then sneak off with Valentine and have your husband come back to, to Jonathan again. 

[00:31:00] Isabella: Yeah. 

[00:31:00] Emma Pickett: And 

[00:31:00] Isabella: or give Valentine to my husband, maybe when he was awake.

Sort of, you know, the first weeks. 

[00:31:04] Emma Pickett: Okay. With a 

[00:31:05] Isabella: newborn. It's not only sleep at night. 

[00:31:08] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:31:08] Isabella: Unfortunately. 

[00:31:09] Emma Pickett: So some people hearing that will be like, oh my God, that just sounds impossibly hard. That sounds, and that's only doable. If your partner has paternity leave, what's the paternity leave situation like in Austria?

He, 

[00:31:20] Isabella: he did for one month. 

[00:31:22] Emma Pickett: A month is good time. That's a good block of time. Yeah. Not unusual for people to only get a couple of weeks. Yeah. Um, in the UK and in other countries. So Jonathan was obviously feeling in the night and was lucky enough to be able to come through and feed with you. How are you getting on with your sleep?

What was happening? How are you feeling? 

[00:31:38] Isabella: Okay. I think it, it was okay. I was still used to, you know, wake up a few times at night. And I think with breastfeeding, I, I, you know, I, I was able to breastfeed while lying. So I, sometimes I just kept on sleeping a little bit, maybe even, um, and it was okay. I was not so sleep deprived.

[00:31:59] Emma Pickett: Okay. Tell us about your sort of furniture and your physical setup in the bedroom. Mm-hmm. What, what did the bedroom look like? Where was Valentine's starting the night, for example? How did you make that space safe? 

[00:32:11] Isabella: Uh, we have, um, a standard double bed with, on one side we have this fence. The fence, you know, so that the kid cannot fall out.

Yeah. And this was where Jonathan would sleep when he, when he came, and then it was him, uh, or me in the middle. And then next to us, we have, um. Is it a cot? Yeah, like a baby bed with, um, just put really next to our bed so that Valentine can roll over and I can 

[00:32:37] Emma Pickett: Okay. So what 

[00:32:37] Isabella: we 

[00:32:37] Emma Pickett: call next, next to me, a cot that's designed to be close to the bed.

Absolutely. At the same surface, essentially. Yeah. 

[00:32:44] Isabella: So we have a large, large space for, for three people. 

[00:32:47] Emma Pickett: Okay. The fence you mentioned, what we might call a, a bed guard or something is such a useful tool. I don't think people use them enough actually with tandem feeding. 

[00:32:55] Isabella: Yeah. We, we bring it to every hotel or wherever we go.

We have 

[00:32:59] Emma Pickett: really handy because it just means you've got more bed. Um, if you have to worry about the toddler falling out the other side, you've, you're suddenly essentially sleeping in the center of the bed and no one's, no one's got space. So super helpful to have one of those, those bed cards for sure.

Okay, so Valentine is a few weeks old. Breastfeeding's going really well. You are coping with feeding both of them at night. How does it feel in the day to be home with both of them? Let's imagine your husband's back at work. How, how did those days feel? Yeah, 

[00:33:26] Isabella: so the first few days by myself, I ate a lot of chocolate.

That got me through the day. No, it was, we had found a rhythm. I have to say the hardest parts for me were when Jonathan woke up from his afternoon nap. 'cause then he really needed a feed and sometimes I had Valentine. On me or in the baby carrier. And I even found a way to feed Jonathan while Valentine was in the carrier and sleeping with the right clothing.

So, but I have to say, this was hard. So this was, uh, these, I I feared a bit these, uh, moments in the afternoon when Jonathan would get really upset and, and took a while to, you know, wake up and, and. I had the feeling he, he remembered now that there was this baby taking his place maybe. And so that was the hardest part of the day, but somehow we made it through.

[00:34:21] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:34:21] Isabella: Just by time going by. 

[00:34:23] Emma Pickett: I'm just picturing you wearing Valentine in a kind of carrier and. Pushing him, sliding him to one side. So you can just expose enough breasts. That's exactly, 

[00:34:32] Isabella: yeah, we 

[00:34:32] Emma Pickett: do for, for Jonathan to be able to get to the breast and, um, you know, baby wearing is such a revolution. It makes such a huge difference when you're, when you're caring for two kids at the same time.

[00:34:42] Isabella: Mm-hmm. 

[00:34:43] Emma Pickett: Um, and then Valentin carried on not having any issues, no particular breastfeeding problems. 

[00:34:48] Isabella: What I was surprised by, or what I, so I read before that, you know, you should have the newborn feed first and then the toddler, but. There was so much milk I already had with Jonathan rather too much milk, uh, than not enough.

And so, and, and Valentine was having a bit troubles with, um, you know, vomiting and, and 

[00:35:08] Emma Pickett: okay 

[00:35:08] Isabella: being sick of, of too much milk. So in the end it was. Often first, Jonathan, 

[00:35:14] Emma Pickett: ah, 

[00:35:14] Isabella: then Valenti. Ah, 

[00:35:15] Emma Pickett: very handy. Okay. Yeah. So we, we talk about newborns going first when we're producing colostrum. 

[00:35:21] Isabella: Yeah. 

[00:35:21] Emma Pickett: Perhaps less of an issue once mature milks come through.

We're not producing colostrum, but I love how, so Valentine must have got the really high fat content milk. He must have turned into a little spherical, um, gor, gorgeous little podgy baby. I'm imagining. 

[00:35:35] Isabella: He, he was such a sweet, chubby baby. 

[00:35:38] Emma Pickett: So, so for Jonathan got all the, the low fat, high water content milk.

Um, I'm sure Valenti would've got whatever he needed, if he needed. And obviously Jonathan wasn't feeding all day long. Um, um, okay. That's handy. But did you struggle then with overproduction 'cause of carrying on with that level of stimulation? Were you worried about engorgement? Did you have any issues with overproduction?

[00:35:59] Isabella: Luckily, luckily not. No. So if I felt something was, um, you know, there was, I was feeling a bit off. Then I asked Jonathan if, if he wanted some milk, and of course he was happy. 

[00:36:10] Emma Pickett: Very useful. Very, very useful. 

[00:36:12] Isabella: Yeah. 

[00:36:13] Emma Pickett: Um, okay. So tell us, how did things carry on then? So, Jonathan is not breastfeeding today. We know his journey ended at some point.

How, how did Jonathan's journey come to a close? 

[00:36:22] Isabella: I don't remember the exact point when I decided, okay, we're. Trying to end this now, but Valentine wasn't even three months, I think it was. It was around two months, and I ordered a book. On weaning. I've wrote it down. If it's called, wait, where do I Have It?

Loving Comfort. Oh, yes, you might know it. 

[00:36:43] Emma Pickett: That's, that's the one with Jack, isn't it? Loving Comfort. 

[00:36:46] Isabella: Yes, yes. 

[00:36:46] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:36:46] Isabella: Mm-hmm. 

[00:36:47] Emma Pickett: That's a very lovely, 

[00:36:48] Isabella: yeah, so Jonathan loved it. He loved just seeing the, the kid, uh. Feed or or drink the milk he loved, especially that 

[00:36:55] Emma Pickett: is, was that in English or was that in German? 

[00:36:58] Isabella: No, in Germany.

German. 

[00:36:58] Emma Pickett: So there's a translated version. Okay, cool. 

[00:37:00] Isabella: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:37:01] Emma Pickett: So you bought that book because you had a gut feeling that you wanted to bring things to a close. Yeah. 

[00:37:05] Isabella: Yeah. 

[00:37:05] Emma Pickett: And do you remember, 'cause you've sort of described, apart from the transition around nap time and the challenge of that, you've described quite a functional tandem feeding experience that's working quite well.

So what was happening for you where you felt that, hang on, I, I need to end this. 

[00:37:21] Isabella: I had some aversion already before, but it was not so strong that I felt I need to wean. But then it became a bit more, and I thought, now, you know, the, the babies here, he's close to three months old. We are a bit settled.

Things have calmed down a bit. Now we can start this weaning process. Okay. Okay. Slowly, but I, I wanted it to be really, um, as slow as possible. And so I started, we, we love to read books and, and I just started with this. 

[00:37:52] Emma Pickett: So you're reading Loving Comfort, which is the story of lovely little Jack ending his breastfeeding journey.

Did you start to say, and um, excuse me, Jonathan, we are actually talking about your story as well. I mean, how did you then make the link between reading that book and, and bringing his journey to a close? 

[00:38:08] Isabella: Yeah, I put more and more focus on the, the page where they night win and then the next day he's happy and everything is is fine.

And we are like, look, he's smiling and he's having some strawberries. And Jonathan loves strawberries. And it was spring, so we were talking about. Ending breastfeeding or, or more the, the situation where maybe he wants milk, but I say no or there's just no milk now, but maybe later. So that was more, 

[00:38:33] Emma Pickett: okay.

[00:38:34] Isabella: Our first approach. 

[00:38:36] Emma Pickett: So he's asking, you are saying not right now, um, but it doesn't sound as though you had a strict timeframe. You were just gradually trying to wind things. 

[00:38:45] Isabella: But no. So then there was this one day, it was just before Easter, and we had really good nights with Jonathan. He was only waking once and um, so it was Easter.

My husband was home for four days. My parents were visiting for I think three or four days. We had good nights and I thought, now is the time to night. We, because we had this book, we talked about it. I knew about it and I thought. I need to take this opportunity. I, I won't have it. Maybe I won't have it again so soon.

So I knew the days would be okay because I have so much support so the nights can be a bit worse. Uh, I thought it's a good time. And then I've, um, I fed him in the evening for, for his bedtime and then only at five in the morning. So that was my kind of, I had this window of eight hours where there was just no milk.

And at night I gave him water and I said, look, now there's water. And in the morning you can have milk. And it was fine. It worked okay. When you 

[00:39:43] Emma Pickett: say it's fine, you mean he wasn't screaming, he wasn't very distressed? 

[00:39:48] Isabella: Nope. No. A little bit maybe, but I don't even remember it. So it cannot, it wasn't, it really wasn't better.

So it, um, I think the first night he completely accepted it. The second night was a bit of discussion, but then it was normal. Suddenly it was just normal. 

[00:40:04] Emma Pickett: Brilliant. Oh, what a lovely story to hear. So some people listen to that, were like, oh goodness, I didn't even know it could be like that. So that's great to hear.

'cause obviously when you are night weaning and you've got a newborn in your arms, it must be really scary to think, oh my God, if my oldest is distressed, I'm gonna wake the baby and then the baby's gonna be crying and it's gonna be, everyone's gonna be dysregulated. Yeah. But the fact that Jonathan.

Absolutely got it. I mean, that must be testament to your communication that you had explained it over and over again. You'd related it to the book, you'd talked about it. He understood what was gonna, what was gonna happen. There was nothing surprising about it. 

[00:40:39] Isabella: Yeah. 

[00:40:40] Emma Pickett: So he woke, he gave him water, and then when it got to five o'clock, he, 

[00:40:44] Isabella: he would have his milk.

Milk. And, and also during the day, I, I realized he wanted more milk than during the day. And actually then one month later I thought. We will never win. So I will win both at the same time. Probably because Jonathan was like requesting the milk so much then during the day. Yeah. But then we had another event where I thought, okay, next chance we, we go on the next we, we take now the next step, which was.

I think one or two months later and suddenly he, he got rid of his nappies of his ty. Okay. 

[00:41:18] Emma Pickett: You made it sound like he did that by himself. Was that 

[00:41:20] Isabella: Yeah, it was, it was really, so it got warm outside and we did, uh, elimination communication from the beginning. 

[00:41:27] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. 

[00:41:28] Isabella: And I just let him run around naked and then only with the, you know, under underpants.

[00:41:33] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:41:34] Isabella: And suddenly he, he realized he can go to the toilet. And this, I, I had the feeling he was so empowered by this. That he, he was in a, such a good mood and it was such a great time and I thought, okay, now is the next chance that we have to, to take. And then I started to really drop during the, to really have a a, a system during the day.

So have a rhythm during the day of certain feeds that we will have, and then I started to drop one after the other. Okay. 

[00:42:03] Emma Pickett: That technique is absolutely, that's what I often talk about at this age. I call them. Tent pole feeds like you, you move from unpredictable, responsive feeding to 

[00:42:13] Isabella: Yeah, 

[00:42:13] Emma Pickett: fixing the feeds at certain times and then you drop them one by one, which is, so it was interesting.

You literally just mimicked exactly what I said, what I exact, what I say to people as well, so 

[00:42:22] Isabella: yeah. 

[00:42:23] Emma Pickett: So he was still having naps at this point. He was still feeding. Were you still feeding him to sleep at nap time and was he still struggling to wake up? 

[00:42:31] Isabella: No, I wasn't feeding him to his nap because we always went outside with the stroller and Valentine in the carrier because it, there was no other way I, I, I could not, uh, put him to bed with Valentine.

So anyway, we went outside with the stroller, so going to sleep was not a problem. But then waking up, as I said, was challenging. So I think I first dropped the, like a lunch feed. 

[00:42:53] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:42:54] Isabella: And then the second one was the one after his snap. And I remember holding him really close and, um. Telling him, I know we can make this.

And, and by then I was really sure we can make it. And I think that was key to the, to the whole 

[00:43:07] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:43:08] Isabella: Uh, process being successful. And I told him, we can make this in a different way and let's just come here. We can cuddle. And um, I tried to have Valentine somewhere. Uh, busy or, or, you know, to, to really have a chance to focus on Jonathan during that time because it was so key for him every day 

trying 

[00:43:27] Emma Pickett: to work out how old Valentin was at this point.

When you are 

[00:43:30] Isabella: finally 

[00:43:30] Emma Pickett: weaning Jonathan 

[00:43:31] Isabella: four, four or five 

[00:43:32] Emma Pickett: months. Four or five months, so he's kind of playing or awake or alert, and I like what you're, I hear what you're saying about how you had that determination. You had that strength of we can do this. Mommy's here for you. 

[00:43:43] Isabella: I never had. Before. So during the second pregnancy, I was never so sure about it.

And I'm sure that this was, uh, why our story, uh, went the way it did. 

[00:43:53] Emma Pickett: Okay. But now you had that kind of inner reserve that this is what you needed to do. And I, I love what you're saying about how you kind of watched for moments in his life when it felt sensible. I think that business about, you know, he was on and up, he was feeling great, he was feeling empowered.

That was a moment to make a change. I, I don't often hear people talking about that, so I think that's, that's really useful information. So. You drop the post nap feed, you're now just down to morning and bedtime. 

[00:44:19] Isabella: So 5:00 AM still a very, very important one, and then two bedtime. 

[00:44:23] Emma Pickett: So the 5:00 AM one you, you'd kind of made it significant by almost making it a reward after the night weaning.

It's that you've survived the whole night. This is the special feed we have to of mark. The fact that you've survived the night. So how did you get rid of that one? 

[00:44:39] Isabella: It was the last one we had. I really remember the day and, and the, the, the situation we were really used to, to this, we can make it in a different way.

I told him this every time we, we, we drop the feed also at bedtime. And he understood. And he was almost two years old then, and I think he just understood. 

[00:44:56] Emma Pickett: Let me ask you about the bedtime first, so we're going in the correct order. 

[00:44:59] Isabella: Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:00] Emma Pickett: So how you dropped the bedtime feed, so that was the penultimate feed.

How did you drop the bedtime feed? 

[00:45:05] Isabella: So I tried to disconnect falling asleep from breastfeeding. I sang a lot of songs to him and, and cuddling a lot. So, and, and he's, he, he loves his pacifier. That also helped, certainly. Okay. And somehow this was an easier one, I would say. So the after the, the nap during the day and then in the morning there were a bit the harder ones.

[00:45:28] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you gradually made the bedtime feed shorter and shorter and then one day just stopped doing it. 

[00:45:33] Isabella: Yeah, sometimes we, we didn't have it then we had it maybe one day again and then not, and I felt, okay, this is 

[00:45:39] Emma Pickett: okay. 

[00:45:40] Isabella: Also, a lot of talking and reassuring that we can, you can fall asleep like this. I know it.

And, um, 

[00:45:45] Emma Pickett: and not a lot of tears from him by the sounds of it. 

[00:45:48] Isabella: No, no, no. '

[00:45:48] Emma Pickett: cause that even that bedtime feed 

[00:45:50] Isabella: not at all, 

[00:45:50] Emma Pickett: even 

[00:45:50] Isabella: wasn't 

[00:45:50] Emma Pickett: particularly significant. And now you're down to the morning feed. That's the last feed. Tell us how that one dropped. 

[00:45:57] Isabella: So also really. It was easy to drop, but he was there. He was sometimes distressed and he was crying at 5:00 AM not, he wasn't asking for the milk anymore.

And he could have, because he had, he had the words for it. He was just upset, but it was not about the milk anymore. So I, I saw that he, he accepted it. He's just angry, you know? Does it make, make sense? 

[00:46:22] Emma Pickett: So he's still in your room. He's come through during the night. He's lying next to you. But he's not asking for milk.

That's really interesting. And yet he's still emotionally dysregulated and you are wondering, do I get up, do I get up Valentine as well? What do I do next? So, so you, did you tell him that this is going to be the last time we have milk? How did that, the actual feed end? 

[00:46:46] Isabella: I think I told him. Yeah, I think I did.

[00:46:48] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:46:49] Isabella: I mean, I wasn't so sure and I was still open to have maybe in three days we do it again in the morning. I was. You know, never, it never felt right for me to have this close end and, and just go over his emotions. 

[00:47:04] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. 

[00:47:05] Isabella: So you, it was very important. So you sort say, so 

[00:47:06] Emma Pickett: today we're not having milk, is how you might say it.

[00:47:09] Isabella: Yeah. And then one 

[00:47:10] Emma Pickett: day 

[00:47:10] Isabella: I always tried, tried, tried, and then I thought, okay, for me, I, I was pretty clear that this was going to be the last one. And I think I told him, don't remember really. Okay. 

[00:47:20] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:47:21] Isabella: And then the next dates when he. I was really upset. I, I think I gave him water or maybe we got up and had breakfast and had some, maybe I made him hot chocolate.

I don't remember. So there was some 

[00:47:32] Emma Pickett: okay. 

[00:47:32] Isabella: Some nice, uh, things instead. 

[00:47:35] Emma Pickett: But I guess, I mean, I guess the fact you didn't remember and we're not talking a long time ago now we're just talking a few months ago. The fact that you don't remember is interesting. 'cause it kind of suggests to me it wasn't. That much of a painful core memory for you.

Yeah. I mean, if it had been absolutely dramatizing, you would've remembered exactly what you did. Yeah. But it wasn't so significant that, that, that memory held with you. 

[00:47:57] Isabella: I, I always thought, okay, when Jonathan is wied, is that how you say it? Mm-hmm. He wied I will have, you know, a celebration because it's such a, we had such a long pro weaning, um, like I was, I thought about it for a year by then and then it happened and I thought.

That was not very significant. Like, why should I have a, a celebration now? It, it's so different from what I expected and that showed me that it was really the right way to go. 

[00:48:26] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah. So as you say, it was a year, wasn't it, from the beginning of your pregnancy? Yeah. And until he finally, finally ended.

Yeah. That that's a, that's a long journey. And when you said that he was still upset at five o'clock in the morning, is that still true now that he's sometimes upset, awake? 

[00:48:42] Isabella: No, no, no. It was for maybe one month. And then he slept through the night, so, 

[00:48:47] Emma Pickett: okay. 

[00:48:47] Isabella: May, no he, he wakes up maybe once now. Some nights he sleeps really through, and sometimes he wakes up once and then he drinks some water and that's we're fine.

So we never went back to the bottles. We also dropped them. 

[00:48:59] Emma Pickett: Okay. So when you say he sleeps through, does that mean he doesn't even come into your room sometimes? He stays in the 

[00:49:04] Isabella: room. Um, we, we bed share now, so we changed this at some point when I found it easier to, um, put both down in my bed to, to put both.

Yeah. In, in my bed. And, um, now it's the three of us in, in, in our bedroom. And my husband, he, uh, was moved to the, to the children's room or, or is allowed to have more quiet nights there because, um, yeah, the, unfortunately, or by now it's both kids who, who ask for, for me at night. Okay. So that's, um, how we do it right now.

And I would love if. The four of us would be in the same room. But then I made the experience that I wake up if my husband is just, you know, moving around or make some noise and I just can't afford having another one waking me up at night. So that's for us now, it, it just feels perfect as it is and we will, that's always has been our approach to see how things go and yeah.

And if we need a change, then we do the change. And this was something that I. We loved about what you said, and I think it was this first tandem feeding episode where you say, why would you cut your hair now if you want a short haircut in five months about this? Why should I, we now, if I'm not even sure if I have to.

[00:50:21] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:50:22] Isabella: And this, this really described my weaning experience during the first or the second pregnancy. 'cause I was just doing it in order to avoid problems that might arise later. 

[00:50:33] Emma Pickett: Yep. 

[00:50:34] Isabella: And that's why it felt so wrong. 

[00:50:35] Emma Pickett: Yep. 

[00:50:36] Isabella: All the time. 

[00:50:36] Emma Pickett: Yep. That's, I'm glad you reminded me of that, the haircut analogy.

Yeah. You know, it makes no sense, does it? We most areas of our life, we make a decision based on our current circumstances and hypothetical fears are not a reason to make a dramatic change in our lives. No. Particularly if hypothetical fears aren't coming from a place where you really have spoken to people who know, and you really do have a strong evidence base.

So just as you are now with your bed sharing, it's working right now, doesn't mean it's permanent. You can make a change when the change is necessary. Um, you know, as long as everyone's able to communicate and be honest about how they're feeling, it's, it's gonna work. So, so Jonathan is pretty much sleeping through, you said, just occasionally waking for some water.

Um, Valentin is, he's just turned one. How, how many times does he wake in a typical night? 

[00:51:23] Isabella: Um, now, last few days. Twice or, or three times maybe. But we had some times where it was more, and I think it's, so we are still waiting for, he, he only has six teeth. There is a connection. So when he feels something off.

Okay, 

[00:51:39] Emma Pickett: okay. 

[00:51:40] Isabella: Because the teeth or he, yeah. I can always tell when we have a very busy day, then the nights are more like. Uh, how do you say they're not so quiet? 

[00:51:51] Emma Pickett: Okay, that's interesting. I'd, I'd have thought he'd get tired out on a busy day, but now 

[00:51:55] Isabella: you 

[00:51:55] Emma Pickett: notice he's more 

[00:51:56] Isabella: disturbed. No, he's very open. He's so open to when he meets people and, and during the day, you would think that he has a lot of fun and I get, I, I, I'm sure he does.

But then in the evening. You can see he's a bit overstimulated. And also during the night usually this, this carries on. 

[00:52:12] Emma Pickett: Okay. Brilliant. Thank you so much for sharing your story, Isabella. What, uh, it's just really lovely to hear how you went through the process of kind of making decisions and reflecting and changing your mind when it felt right, the right thing to do.

And, and, and that's, it's just great to hear how you kind of were able to kinda go through that whole process. Has Jonathan asked for milk again since he's weaned? 

[00:52:33] Isabella: Never once I thought he asked, but then I realized he was asking for his puppy dog or for his, you know, um, toy, toy dog. But what is really funny, since a few days he asks Valentine.

Do you maybe want to have breast milk? 

[00:52:51] Emma Pickett: Oh. 

[00:52:52] Isabella: And, um, even if I don't want to, because I, I'm like, he has just fed, or he, I, I see he doesn't need it now. But then Valentine comes, of course, really happy and, and Jonathan is so happy about it. And then he tells me, look, Valentine is so good at, at drinking breast milk.

I think he has it from a book that we have been reading where the mom says, look, so. The kid, a the toddler asks like, what can the baby do? He can't do anything. And then the mom says, no, look, uh, she can, she's really good at breastfeeding and I think this is where this comes from. Mm-hmm. But, uh, it's very sweet, and I would've liked to know this a year ago, uh, that we would have a very, um, you know, peaceful, uh, uh, relationship with breastfeeding, all three of us.

And it would be so, such a good. Nice. Uh. Yeah. Transition or, 

[00:53:44] Emma Pickett: yeah. Yeah. That's, that's lovely. He's a, I love how he's a little breastfeeding advocate. And are you going back to work again? What's your situation with work? 

[00:53:50] Isabella: Yeah. Um, so I started to work again, but really only a few hours a week. Um, and that's really good for me to go somewhere else and my husband, uh, spending the time with the kids and I think the kids love it and for, it's really good for the four of us.

And Valentin is still breastfeeding. I thought there, so that, there was a time where I thought he might. Just lose interest because he sees his brother eat. Mm-hmm. And, and it's a different situation, but then he, he wanted or he liked it again, and I promised myself I will not have a stressful weaning experience again.

So I will not put any pressure as this time, and we will just see how it goes. 

[00:54:30] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And here's a very personal question. Are you practicing natural family planning Again? What's, you're getting to the point, you're getting to the point where you got pregnant last time? I'm just wondering. 

[00:54:39] Isabella: Yeah, no. No, no. So this time we, we really make sure because we're you, you can imagine with two uh, boys at that age, we are really exhausted and we love it, but we are really exhausted and, and we, this time we make really sure that Yep.

[00:54:57] Emma Pickett: Thank you for, thank you for answering my very personal question. I appreciate that. Um, so is there anything that we haven't talked about that you would like people to know? Anything that we haven't touched on? 

[00:55:07] Isabella: Uh, no. I think, yeah, I, you, you touched upon it because I read somewhere that it's hardest to win between one year and two years because of what you said.

There is not, so there's a memory, but then they don't understand so much yet. And I had the feeling now that I went beyond the first birthday with Valentine, did I somehow make the decision to. Go for sure until his second birthday? Or is that something you don't see so much? I mean, I know it's very individual, so it 

[00:55:36] Emma Pickett: really, really is super individual.

I mean, I would say that every personality's different. So some 14 month olds are super easy to wean because they're already on that journey themselves. It's the, it's the little booby monsters who are very, very strongly emotionally attached to breastfeeding who are gonna struggle when they're not able to communicate.

Yeah. It's interesting you said two. I've never heard someone say that it's hard up till two, I think. WI think 18 months tends to be a bit of a threshold. Okay. I think when children are able to be more verbal and have an understanding, it gets a bit easier. I think it really helps when they can understand the concept of nighttime is sleeping time.

Mm. And mommy needs to sleep and mommy's body needs to sleep and. Lots of 18, 19, 20 month olds will get that. Um, I think it get, when it gets hard is when they don't understand what you're saying. They just don't understand why they can't have milk. Um, but I have had people who've weaned at 15 months and it's been really smooth and it's, it's not been a problem.

It's, it's so hard to generalize. Um, I, I don't think from what you've said. You know, you'll have any problem weaning whenever you want to wean because you're, you've got such a good approach 

[00:56:42] Isabella: and I'm so much clearer now about what I feel and how I communicate it, and Yeah. Um, when I feel that now is the time, then we will, 

[00:56:51] Emma Pickett: yeah, 

[00:56:51] Isabella: we will find a way.

I think 

[00:56:52] Emma Pickett: whatever you need to do, you will do. I mean, I know that didn't happen in your pregnancy with Jonathan, but I think that was because you, you weren't sure what you wanted and now you know 

[00:57:01] Isabella: yourself. There was also this guilt, you know? Yeah. So this was also, yeah. Um, I think played a big role that I thought now we, we present him this baby, um, at such a young age, and I felt also some guilt and I wanted to make this transition as easy as possible for Jonathan.

This, that was also the main reason why I, I was going so much with his, you know, following his lead somehow. 

[00:57:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So I mean, it may well be that Valentine surprises you and self weens. Who knows? Yeah. Um, it, it can absolutely happen and I'd be love, I'd love to hear what does happen. So, so let let me know when the time comes 'cause I'm always very nosy about other people's breastfeeding journeys.

Thank you so much for sharing your story today. I really appreciate it. 

[00:57:41] Isabella: Thank you very much for the nice talk.

[00:57:48] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.