Sam’s story - natural term feeding, tandem feeding and breastfeeding advocacy

This week, I’m talking to the brilliant Sam Kennedy Christian from Herne Bay, Kent, about her breastfeeding journey while 29 weeks pregnant and feeding her three-year-old. We discuss gentle night weaning using a clock and flexibility during illness or distress, co-sleeping changes ahead of a new baby, and Sam’s previous tandem feeding experience when her eldest breastfed until six years old, including boundaries and supporting sibling feelings about fairness. Sam talks about pelvic girdle pain and nipple sensitivity in pregnancy. We also cover Sam’s work with Save the Children on formula marketing, volunteering with the Association of Breastfeeding Mothers, and her coaching work helping parents navigate breastfeeding alongside returning to paid work, flexible working, and shared parental leave.

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, by going to https://bit.ly/JKPbooks and using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

You can follow Sam on Instagram @‌thefloat.space

Resources mentioned - 

Breastfeeding at Work UK: Your Rights, Pumping Breaks & Employer Duties The Float Space https://www.thefloat.space/latest/breastfeeding-at-work-in-the-uk-your-rights-pumping-breaks-and-how-to-ask-for-proper-support

Tigers (2014 film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigers_(2014_film)

Baby Milk Action  https://www.babymilkaction.org/

AIMS https://www.aims.org.uk/journal/item/breastfeeding-politics-business

Maternity Action https://maternityaction.org.uk/

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm really excited today to be talking to Sam.

That's Sam Kennedy Christian. Can I just say that's a really cool name. It sounds like you're a pop star. It's a, it's, it's a cool name. So, Sam Kennedy Christian is, um, yeah, I had a double barreled surname when I was younger and it's a flipping in a hassle, but it's, it's quite cool. Um, she's from Hern Bay in Kent and we're gonna be talking about her breastfeeding journey, um, which includes working for Save the Children, even before she had children in the infant feeding policy department.

We'll be talking about tandem feeding, natural term, feeding night, weaning the decision to tandem feed. And also Sam is a life and career coach who helps other people, um, with their journeys and thinking about where they want to be and going back to paid work. So we've got lots of things to cover. Um, thank you very much for joining me today, Sam.

So you're pregnant right now. How, how far along are you? 

[00:01:39] Sam: Um, so I'm 29 weeks. I think that makes me about like getting on for seven months-ish. Okay. 

[00:01:44] Emma Pickett: How 

[00:01:45] Sam: are you feeling? I feel extremely pregnant, but I know I'm not, I know like gonna get more pregnant, 

[00:01:51] Emma Pickett: get more. 

[00:01:52] Sam: So yeah. 

[00:01:53] Emma Pickett: I think isn't pregnant binary status.

I think you're pretty much so, so you, you make it sound like you're having a little bit of a rough time. I mean, are you, how are you feeling? 

[00:02:02] Sam: I mean, like. Yeah, I'm, I've got, um, I've had through all my pregnancies, pelvic girdle pain has been a problem. I've got joint hyper mobility, so that is a sort of potential for that.

So that makes it quite hard. Having older children makes it a bit tricky. So my older ones are seven and three and like want to apply on the floor and. Luckily they climbed my husband a bit more than me, but, um, yeah, it's, 

[00:02:29] Emma Pickett: yeah. Yeah, yeah. So you've got a 7-year-old and a 3-year-old. 

[00:02:31] Sam: Yeah. 

[00:02:32] Emma Pickett: And the 3-year-old is still breastfeeding right now?

[00:02:36] Sam: Yes. 

[00:02:36] Emma Pickett: Um, while you're pregnant? Yes. Um, and how often do they feed in a typical 24 hours? 

[00:02:42] Sam: It really varies. So we night weaned at Christmas, um, because it took quite a long time for his speech to come along. So my, my older one we night weaned when she was about two, and she was very articulate. So much so that she could tell me when I was reassuring her and telling her I loved her, that I only loved her when the sun shines.

Oh. Oh my 

[00:03:03] Emma Pickett: God. That's so poignant. Oh my goodness. 

[00:03:06] Sam: Because we'd been reading nurses when the sun shine. 

[00:03:08] Emma Pickett: Yes, that's what I was guessing. 

[00:03:10] Sam: So I gave her the words. 

[00:03:11] Emma Pickett: Oh, that was, 

[00:03:11] Sam: that's that's 

[00:03:12] Emma Pickett: powerful stuff, isn't it? 

[00:03:13] Sam: That's why you have to be like super resilient in yourself when you do that. Yeah. 

[00:03:17] Emma Pickett: What, what do you say to someone who says.

You only love me when the sun shines. What are you, what did you say? 

[00:03:23] Sam: Uh, I don't remember. I don't remember what I said in the moment. I think I remember. It was pretty hard hitting. I probably said something like, I love you. I love you all the time. And I'm like, I'm here. I'm probably just carried on with the reassurance.

[00:03:33] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So she was too, when you night weaned, 

[00:03:36] Sam: she was around too? Yeah. Okay. Okay. So whereas my son, so it was Christmas, so he was about three and a half, but he, I, I hadn't been a problem feeding him in the night. It was only because of pregnancy and the sort of pain that comes with feeding or can come with feeding in pregnancy.

That meant so 

[00:03:51] Emma Pickett: that kind 

[00:03:52] Sam: of 

[00:03:52] Emma Pickett: nipple sensitivity. 

[00:03:54] Sam: Yeah. 

[00:03:55] Emma Pickett: Can I just ask you before, before I ask you a bit more, I'd love to hear a bit more about your night weaning, um, because I think that's something that people often really value hearing about. And, and we know that, you know, because you, you know, you had a natural term breastfeeding journey with your eldest, that you're someone who's really passionate about natural term feeding.

So this isn't, you know, this isn't something you would do lightly, um, that I totally appreciate. You know, if you're experiencing pregnancy pain, this is a decision you needed to make. How did you go about it? Tell us about the, the logistics. 

[00:04:22] Sam: So having done it before init, well, initially I was like, oh, maybe I won't.

Need to bother because sometimes he would sleep almost all night, maybe wake up once, have a bit of a feed, go back to sleep Very quickly. 

[00:04:38] Emma Pickett: Were you co-sleeping? 

[00:04:39] Sam: Yeah. 

[00:04:40] Emma Pickett: Are you still co-sleeping now, post the weaning? 

[00:04:42] Sam: Uh, a bit. I'm trying to get out of his bed because of the baby coming. Um, because I'm not keen to coate with both of them.

[00:04:51] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:04:51] Sam: And now he's not being resettled with a breastfeed. My husband can go and resettle him. 

[00:04:56] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:04:56] Sam: In the night. 

[00:04:57] Emma Pickett: Okay, so it was Christmas. Was that on purpose? Because, so it was the Christmas holidays, so your eldest didn't have to go to school? 

[00:05:02] Sam: Actually, we did it just after Christmas because I was like, Christmas holidays are gonna be different.

We were in a different house. Uh, we stayed with my sister, so we, it was all different. So I was like, we, I don't wanna do it actually at Christmas, because that would just, oh, it would be hard for everyone. 

[00:05:17] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:05:18] Sam: And there were days at Christmas where he would breastfeed like all day because. It being all being so different and days where I'd go, I'd realize at bedtime that he hadn't fed since the previous bedtime.

[00:05:29] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:05:30] Sam: Pretty much so. So it would've been, yeah, I guess like New Year decided, we were reading, uh, we got Jesse's Milky. 

[00:05:38] Emma Pickett: Oh, 

[00:05:39] Sam: thank 

[00:05:39] Emma Pickett: you. Well, you 

[00:05:39] Sam: haven't seen you liked it yet, 

but 

[00:05:40] Emma Pickett: thank you for buying it, even if you hated 

[00:05:42] Sam: it. Uh, we like, it's been, um, useful as well. Obviously it covers pregnancy and hand feeding and stuff I hadn't perhaps expected to be covering when we got it and we're reading it at first.

'cause actually, yeah, I got it ages and ages ago. Um, I'm trying to think. The timelines here are all confused in my very, yeah. We'd started reading it quite a long time before I sort of thought this is probably a good one to read. Helpful that Jesse is a 3-year-old boy. He kind of looks like my son has the same first initial.

That was really nice to read together. So we got, I had a grow clock that we'd used for my daughter. We got that out like this sort of, here's the morning. Um, talked about it. Um, he was a bit sad when he woke up in the night, but not te if he was completely distraught and like lost his kind of control, like it felt like he wouldn't be able to get himself back to being okay.

I would feed him. 

[00:06:41] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:06:42] Sam: Um, but if he was just sad and expressing, I'm sad. And kind of in control of it, we'd, we'd have cuddles and go back to sleep. 

[00:06:50] Emma Pickett: Okay. That's interesting to hear actually, that you have that. 

[00:06:53] Sam: It's quite gentle 

[00:06:53] Emma Pickett: you had that flexibility. 'cause I think, I mean, it's, it's a, it's a message I give and actually think it's important for me to hear that, that you can have that flexibility.

'cause I'm big on, we've got to be consistent and if the clock is the wrong symbol, we've got to hold that boundary. Otherwise we're gonna be confusing them. But, but thank you for reminding me that it doesn't have to be that black and white. And if you really Yeah. If you really in the moment feel that you need to respond with the feed.

You have absolutely every right to do that. So, so you were having a go at going the whole night. Were you, so, so from that first night you were saying, okay, mate, it is, the sun isn't shining, milk is asleep. Um, and you, you had a go? 

[00:07:30] Sam: Yeah, we'd say goodnight to the milky. We'd turn the clock on some nights he was like, well, I'm just not gonna turn the clock on.

So like taking a bit of control, but. We'd take good night to them, but then have a feed to sleep. 

[00:07:43] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:07:44] Sam: Um, and it, my feeling was like if he totally like lost his composure and was just like completely melting down a conversation about a clock and the sun not being there wouldn't land anyway. 

[00:07:55] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:07:56] Sam: So he just needed that regulation.

[00:07:58] Emma Pickett: Okay. And how many times did you ignore the clock as it were and just feed anyway? And if you I 

[00:08:04] Sam: don't think it was many. I, it took, I, I think it was like a four night ish kind of. Process and then it was like, oh, I think we've done it now. And then there've been times since then when he's been ill and I've fed him or.

He's woken up and must have had a bad dream or something has like, just been completely like losing it and, and I would feed him and not worry that. 

[00:08:27] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. 

[00:08:28] Sam: Yeah, that changed things. 

[00:08:30] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, I guess part of this story is that you're not actually fully weaning him. This isn't, you know, this is, he is still breastfeeding so nighttime.

Yeah. So you've got this flexibility. It's not like you're on a journey where you're. Adamant, you don't wanna be turned and feeding and you've absolutely got to stop breastfeeding. Yeah. Which would have a different level of, of, you know, desperation. So that flexibility can be built in. Um, did he feed last night, for example?

[00:08:52] Sam: Uh, no. No. Fed at bedtime. He was settled then by my husband at one point during the night. Um, and then I went and got in bed with Tim at some point. I'm not sure when. 

[00:09:03] Emma Pickett: Okay. But 

[00:09:03] Sam: I woke up there, so. 

[00:09:05] Emma Pickett: Okay. Yeah, no, I like people who, dunno what time things happen. 'cause I think if we become too obsessed with looking at the clock, it doesn't help our own emotional regulation.

So he is having a morning feed and then he is still feeding sometimes in the day. 

[00:09:16] Sam: Yeah. It was a bit early today, it was like half five. So I was a bit like, oh, it's not quite the morning. Do I say no? But then I thought if I'll feed him now, we'll go back, we'll go back to sleep. 

[00:09:26] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. And does he feed for nap time in the middle of the day?

When is, is he still 

[00:09:30] Sam: n Um, no, he is not really napp. Well, only if he really needs a nap, but he's not really napping now. Okay. And he's at nursery quite a bit, but if, uh, if he's ill or like really needs a nap, if it's just been a busy week. 

[00:09:44] Emma Pickett: Okay. So baby number three will be coming along. Yeah, not so long.

And, and what's your feeling about what you want tandem feeding to look like when baby number three comes? 

[00:09:54] Sam: So, I guess part of me is assuming it might be similar to when, uh, like last, last time, tandem feeding. So my eldest was four when my son was born. She was delighted to have the milk back. 

[00:10:11] Emma Pickett: What had feeding been like in pregnancy with her?

Did you experience discomfort as well? 

[00:10:15] Sam: Yeah, only at the beginning. Only really first trimester discomfort. And then we were feeding to sleep at the end of the day. Other than that, I don't really remember. 

[00:10:27] Emma Pickett: Yeah, it, 

[00:10:27] Sam: it's not so long ago. That's, 

[00:10:28] Emma Pickett: that's alright. I don't, I'm not gonna pin you down. Get your journal out.

Um, so. You had, you obviously made a decision that you were going to tandem feed. Where did that come from? Or did you just make a decision not to change what was happening? 

[00:10:40] Sam: I think I made a, I don't think it's a decision. I think lots of people sort of say, it's not so much a decision. It's just like a decision not to try and stop.

Yeah. I guess was the decision I made because we had moved house. She was getting a little brother. She was starting school. Like, I didn't feel like I could take this thing away from her. That meant so much. It was such an important part of our relationship. 

[00:11:04] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:11:04] Sam: It felt like it was just pregnancy's hard enough.

Like what? Yeah, I didn't wanna make it hard, like, so I guess it wasn't so much a decision to tandem feed as a decision to not change anything. 

[00:11:15] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:11:16] Sam: And then therefore, that meant tandem feeding. 

[00:11:18] Emma Pickett: So when her little brother was born, you said that she was probably only feeding a couple of times a day. Prior to that, did her feeding suddenly kind of increase again or I guess she was at school so you weren't necessarily 

Yeah.

[00:11:28] Emma Pickett: Together all day anyway. 

[00:11:29] Sam: No, so we went together in the day, but I think for me it was quite nice like recovering. So I'd, I'd had a C-section and could lie on the sofa and feed both of them quite easily. Like get quite comfy. You've got a nice corner sofa, get quite snuggly. It means like you can connect.

Without kind of needing, well needing to get off the sofa when you're recovering from birth. The baby at that time was so little, he was like easier to manage around. Recovery and c-section. Like I would sort of tuck him under one side, like rugby ball was quite good if we were like tandem feeding, like prop him on a bit of a pillow.

Yeah. And like she would like lie next to me And it was nice I think for connecting a bit after school. I didn't have any discomfort with engorgement or like, it felt like a much smoother transition from like birth into like feeding and, and my supply like leveling out than it had the first time as well.

[00:12:27] Emma Pickett: Yeah, you, you paint a very vivid picture there of, of lying on the sofa. I think it's really nice for people to remember that that tandem feeding isn't necessarily draining or exhausting. It's a chance to lie down and get everyone else to lie down. And how often does that happen? I mean, you know, a 4-year-old running home from school who wants to kind of connect with you and, you know, you haven't got the capacity to play games and role play and, and you know, do lots of other stuff, but you can lie.

[00:12:53] Sam: Yeah. And snuggle and her and her brother to like get to know each other. Um, I did hand and feed them one time in a playground and decided that wasn't for me. 

[00:13:05] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:13:05] Sam: Like she'd fallen over and I was feeding her brother at the time, so I fed her to make him feel better, but I was like, this is, this is too much for me.

[00:13:13] Emma Pickett: Okay. In terms of positioning or just feeling 

[00:13:15] Sam: overwhelmed? Just a bit, like a bit uncomfortable because you're on a bench, not a sofa. Um, and a bit like. A little bit thinking like, oh, like what are people gonna think I'm feeding like this older child out about, because I wasn't used, didn't feed her often out and about.

It just felt like a lot logistically and like feeding a newborn, you're quite a bit more exposed. 'cause their heads aren't bigger than your boobs. 

[00:13:37] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Like, yep, yep. No, I hear you. So, so she carried on feeding for, for a wee while, while her younger brother was around. 

[00:13:43] Sam: Yeah. 

[00:13:44] Emma Pickett: But she's not feeding now. How did her Jenny come to an end?

[00:13:47] Sam: Uh, so we talked about it just before she turned five. And she was like, I'm not gonna have milk when I'm five. But then as it came around, she was, she didn't want to stop then. So then again, we talked about it just as she was approaching six. So we weren't feeding a lot. It was like bedtime. We'd at some point, brought a boundary, and I think actually when she was quite small that we didn't feed and watch telly.

[00:14:10] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:14:11] Sam: Because it was like, just like, I'm not. Like a snack. Like it's like if you wanna watch a movie, that's fine. And again, it wasn't like a hard boundary. Like occasionally you'd be like, oh, let's snuggle and watch a movie. But for the most part it was like, if you're having milk, you're having some milk and we'll put tell off.

[00:14:28] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:14:29] Sam: Because otherwise she'd just be there all, all the time. Yeah. Um, so as she was approaching her sick birthday, she started talking about it a bit more seriously. I'd listened to some of the stuff that you shared that was quite helpful. We tried having a little meeting about it where we talked about it.

Uh, and then we'd agreed that that was when she was stopping. So I'd fed her to sleep the night before her birthday. 

[00:14:51] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:14:52] Sam: And then that was the last time there was then a challenge because she had basically always been fed to sleep, that she did struggle to get to sleep a little bit after that, and was quite sad.

It took a few weeks to like kind of transition slowly from feeding sleep to being just comfortable going to bed. 

[00:15:12] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay, so I'm just thinking about that journey and how you came to the end. And I'm gonna ask you a tricky question, so feel free to, to come back at me. The idea about her being six before her sixth birthday, it does sound as though that was coming from you and that was something you felt you needed to do.

Was that because it was starting to feel uncomfortable? You were feeling pressure from other people, you just, or you just kind of you Tell me a little bit more about what was underlying that decision for you. And by the way, God, no judgment at all because bloody 

[00:15:42] Sam: hell, 

[00:15:42] Emma Pickett: you 

[00:15:42] Sam: was sick resolved. No, it was a bit of a back and forth.

Actually. I think a bit of both of us talking about it, a bit of talking about whether other people do it. So yeah, a little bit of that. We talked about, she had a friend who. Had stopped just before starting school and they had talked about it when, which was, uh, it was like, that was interesting. Um, I can't remember how it came up.

I 

[00:16:07] Emma Pickett: would've loved to have been a fly on the wall for that conversation. So 

[00:16:10] Sam: they, uh, I've seen them talking about it. They were like, 'cause at the time when, like not long after stopping, the other child was sort of like, well, hang on a minute. Why is Rose still getting some, and I'm not. And there also there's various, from being a peer supporter, there's various like knitted boobs around the house that get played with occasionally.

[00:16:30] Emma Pickett: My kids, my kids used to have boob wars, so I once had a big delivery of knitted boobs. 'cause I was teaching a bunch of peer supporters and they lined up behind two sofas and literally threw knitted boobs at each other. And that was amazing. A highlight for a very long time. Sorry, I just, I had a sudden flash of boob wars.

They were called boob wars and they, um, that was, that was lots of fun. Sorry. Um, carry on. 

[00:16:53] Sam: Yeah, a little bit. I've been thinking like, will she ever stop? And also, and like trying to be like, well, of course she will. It was winding down feeling a bit like maybe we needed to, like, sometimes she would, she would say like she wanted to, she's like growing up, getting her big teeth.

I think there was a little bit from her coming as like, I'm gonna, I'm growing up now. 

[00:17:19] Emma Pickett: Okay. So she was doing some processing as well. 

[00:17:22] Sam: Yeah, but then there it was, I had to hold it when it came around. 

[00:17:27] Emma Pickett: So that final feed, obviously she's your first, you'd fed her first for six years. That's quite a moment to know when it's your final feed and know that that's it.

How did it feel in 

[00:17:37] Sam: that moment? It was a bit, it's a bit emotional 'cause then after that you haven't got that parenting tool as well. I think ease by the fact I wasn't stopping breastfeeding because so that I didn't have like a sort of hormonal impact from it. 

[00:17:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, how did she feel about the fact you were still feeding your son?

Did that ever come into conversation? 

[00:17:59] Sam: Yeah, it did. It was a bit occasionally like, oh, it's not fair, but that, and that had been coming up a little bit anyway, particularly when he was a baby and maybe I'd hold a boundary with her. I'm feeding your brother right now and she'd be like, you've got another one, 

[00:18:13] Emma Pickett: you've got two.

I can see the other one. Um, how did you respond when she said it wasn't fair? I'm curious to know what kind of language you use. 

[00:18:21] Sam: Hmm. It comes, it still comes up a lot. Fairness and challenges. Sometimes there's a, um, I try not to invalidate the feeling like, alright, so I'm a big sister and my husband is a big brother, so.

We do a lot of talking about being the oldest with her because, or like talking to her about, well, when you were that and then sort of validating feeling and then maybe being like, you know, when you were little. So like for instance, my son goes to nursery four days a week. So we have a day where he doesn't go and she goes to school and that feels quite unfair.

So reminding her, well, when you were little, we had a day that we had together before you started school. 

[00:19:06] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, that's, that's definitely what I suggest people lean into. I mean, it, it doesn't, as you say, it doesn't mean the feeling's not there, but to say, listen, when you were three, you didn't have to share me.

Um, you, you know, this is what your, yeah. That's, this is what your breastfeeding journey was like. Um, you know, you, this actually, if you had the two of you side by side. You are getting the same experience. Um, it just feels different because he's younger. But yeah, I think what you're saying about not, not invalidating that feeling is, is really, really important, I think.

Um, and, and not talking about, you know, you don't need it or, or you don't need me as much and, and none 

[00:19:40] Sam: of that. None of that. Yeah. She's totally over now breastfeeding like. She bottle feeds her choice because she thinks breastfeeding is too much work. 

[00:19:50] Emma Pickett: Okay. Well, well maybe we've got a bit of time to work on her before, before she has a baby.

Um, can I just ask you a quick question about your pelvic girdle pain and your joint stuff? Because one of the things that sometimes comes up in conversation is people are told that if they breastfeed. It continues, the symptoms, there's lots and lots of misinformation in there out there about, about relaxing and, and breastfeeding, um, causing joint problems.

And the, the relaxing continues and we, I don't think we have evidence that Relaxing's gonna hang around because we're breastfeeding, but have you done any reading into this? What's, what's your kind of thinking Yeah. 

[00:20:25] Sam: I've got in red just to like check and be like, is this a myth or is this like, uh, my experience with the pelvic geral pain has always been that birth is.

Has removed it and I've been fine afterwards. Okay. 

[00:20:37] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:20:38] Sam: So yeah, it's not something I've been particularly concerned about. 

[00:20:43] Emma Pickett: Okay. Well that's, that's important that you've obviously had that experience and that's your lived experience, which fits with what I'm reading. But it's interesting how people even meet with sort of professionals and physiotherapists who tell 'em, oh no, it's 'cause you're breastfeeding.

That's, that's, you know, why you're having issues. 

[00:20:56] Sam: Yeah. 

[00:20:57] Emma Pickett: But yeah, as you say, the relaxing ideally should be 

[00:20:59] Sam: not, or like hanging around or like if you're getting support like this time around. I've got an osteopath who is also a, my, I like deliberately got in touch with my friends, like classic mom. What's that group even said I need, I'm looking for an osteopath that will not tell me stop breastfeeding or it'll be better when I'm not pregnant.

Um, and I've got one who's among themselves who like fed their children for quite a long time themselves and gets it. 'cause after I saw an osteopath after um, my daughter was born, I was having quite a lot of shoulder pain. I think that cold getting used to feeding and holding and they were, oh, well, it was just get better when you're not breastfeeding.

[00:21:36] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That's not helpful, is 

[00:21:37] Sam: it? Rather than like, actually you could work on kind of your positioning and getting comfortable and. And things like while you've got a small baby. 

[00:21:47] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'm glad you found the right people. Can I ask you a little bit about your work situation? So we, we touched on at the beginning the fact that you work for Save the Children.

You've, you were also a trustee of the A BM for a bit, weren't you? 

[00:21:58] Sam: I was, 

[00:21:58] Emma Pickett: yeah. Yeah. So, Woohoo, shout out a BM. So for anyone who doesn't know what the A BM is, we're not talking about the Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine in America. We're talking about a different A BM. Give us a little taste of what the A BM does.

[00:22:10] Sam: Yeah, so this is the Association of Breastfeeding Mothers, which is I think like quite a sort of small staff wise organization, but. Massive, massive bunch of very dedicated volunteers. Um, and they provide the training. Well, one of the biggest things they do is training peer supporters and breastfeeding counselors who then are the ones who run the, well take all the calls and social messages on the national breastfeeding helpline.

So I'd been a trustee of a few organizations and was looking for another role, um, and saw the A BM advertising and decided to apply. I think it was around, I literally, I think applied around the time I found out my son was on the way. 

[00:22:53] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:22:54] Sam: So he was at many a board meeting. 

[00:22:57] Emma Pickett: Oh, fantastic. Yeah. So I used to be involved in a, a trustee as well, um, a few years ago now.

And, uh, so we're, so the A BM is coming up for its 50th anniversary soon? Not, not so many years away. Another, another two or three years. And yeah, so they run the national breastfeeding helpline with the breastfeeding network. Um, and also they have training courses for professionals as well. Yeah. So doulas or health professionals.

Um, and yeah, lots and lots of resources and leaflets and, and it's, yeah, it's a very, very special organization to. And one of the things I like about the A BM is that if you want to train, it's possible to do it remotely so you don't have to leave your child to train. Um, you know, there is online training options that you can take at your own pace.

Um, and some, some people, for example, live in an area where there are no other peer support organizations. So you can cha chain train with the A BM, and then you could set up your own breastfeeding support group in your area, or you could carry on to become a breastfeeding counselor and, and go on the national breastfeeding helpline as a volunteer.

Um, so yeah, shout out to the a BM. Thank you. Thank you for doing that role. 'cause trustees are super important. Let's talk about your Save the Children work. So even before you ever had babies, you were talking about infant feeding and thinking about infant feeding. Tell us a bit more about what, what you did.

[00:24:08] Sam: I got a bit obsessed. 

[00:24:11] Emma Pickett: That's what happens. It sucks you in, like there's that, I think in The Godfather, it's like Al Pacino's character. They gr they take you in and suck you in. That's what lactation does. 

[00:24:21] Sam: Yeah, so I, I've been doing, I'd done some work around, um, sort of corporate campaigning. I'd been at the Consumers Association and Save the Children.

Were looking for someone to come in and do some work around the marketing of breast milk substitutes and the kind of, some of the unethical practices that go on around the world. And that's what attracted me in, was working on the kind of corporate influencing stuff. 

[00:24:43] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:24:43] Sam: Um, so I didn't have a sort of health and nutrition like policy background.

So I came in with that kind of experience of influencing corporate behavior. 

[00:24:53] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Great perspective to have on it. And you, and I'm guessing you discovered some pretty horrifying stuff. 

[00:24:58] Sam: Yeah. 

[00:24:59] Emma Pickett: Discovered 

[00:24:59] Sam: some pretty horrifying 

[00:25:00] Emma Pickett: stuff. Yeah. I mean, for anyone who doesn't know this world, what kind of unethical practices are we talking about?

[00:25:06] Sam: It's a really tricky to subject to talk about. So I'm gonna try and do it without putting my foot in or like Yeah, you don't have to mention 

[00:25:12] Emma Pickett: companies, individual company names. 

[00:25:14] Sam: Oh yeah, no. Probably won't mention bit. The World Health Organization have a thing called the Code of Marketing of breast milk substitutes, and these are designed to protect all families.

However, you feed your children from unethical marketing, we know that formula companies in order to make money, and it's a very lucrative product. There are massive profit margins, um, to be had on their products. For them to make money, they need people to choose to use their products. So we need to, they need to choose to combi feed or, or to make more money.

Like obviously they'll make a certain level of money from people who need their product because they can't breastfeed for whatever reason. And then they need people to choose to use their products. They wanna sell their products, they wanna keep people with their products, past infant stages into buying follow on milk and, and all sorts of other things.

The code of marketing is designed to protect families from some of that marketing and, and make sure we've got good information, can make informed choices. And a lot of the companies try and get around that as much as possible. So 

[00:26:21] Emma Pickett: yeah. And in the world of social media, yeah. Doing even better. I mean, the social media world has made that even harder, hasn't it?

I mean, I guess you 

[00:26:27] Sam: are working, it's been very 

[00:26:28] Emma Pickett: a few years ago, so it's got even harder. 

[00:26:30] Sam: Yeah. So. And there's historic scandals and particularly pointing to countries around the world where save children might have worked in developing countries where things like, uh, well, and this still happens, like companies paying for, like promotional people to go in, appearing to be health professionals recommending their products.

Um, we did a report of Save the Children. It was called Don't Push It. That looked into the practices of the big companies. 

[00:26:57] Emma Pickett: I remember reading that report and not, not realizing that you were involved in it. Um, 

[00:27:01] Sam: yeah, and that sort of digging into what was going on and looking at kind of consumer from a kind of consumer protection angle.

Um, the pricing and marketing the way that like different products are developed. Like there's not a huge number of companies in this space, but they make a lot of different products 

[00:27:19] Emma Pickett: Yeah. To different groups. And 

[00:27:20] Sam: actually that's 

[00:27:20] Emma Pickett: one of the things, isn't there because there aren't that many companies.

They can have huge, huge influences and they make lots of different milks. One company, um, and they can do price. What's, is price gouging the word? I mean, you can, I mean, at the moment in the UK price of formula is absolutely skyrocketed because Absolutely skyrocketed. There's so little competition. I mean, if anyone wants to learn a bit more about this, um, baby Milk Action is an organization I recommend to looking up, there's a film called Tigers from 2014 Yeah.

That you can find online, which is about somebody working. In this space in Pakistan, um, and realizing what the companies were doing in terms of health professionals. So companies would be going into, I say would, it's probably still happening today, would be going into hospitals and doctors surgeries, paying the doctors to dissuade people from breastfeeding.

Um, so as you, as you say, this is not about people who need to use formula. This is not about anybody who's in the lactation world. Any lactation consultant absolutely understands the value of formula and how lucky we are to have a product that can be used. This is about people who want to breastfeed, who are being told not to by with, by being given false information, who are being influenced and, and dissuaded using marketing practices that are unethical.

And even in the UK we have 

[00:28:41] Sam: mm, 

[00:28:41] Emma Pickett: you know, health professionals who are being influenced, you know, companies are paying for their training. Companies are paying for training around allergy to try and pull people into the space of using 

[00:28:51] Sam: special Yeah. To purely the allergy. A lot of that is sponsored and paid for, and obviously NHS is really stretched, so people look for that.

[00:28:58] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:28:58] Sam: Access to training. 

[00:29:00] Emma Pickett: Yep. And then you get, you get a training session that tells you all about specialized formulas and doesn't give you information about, uh, elimination diets or how to support people to continue breastfeeding. 

[00:29:09] Sam: Yeah. 

[00:29:09] Emma Pickett: And, and some of the things that happened historically are, you know, genuinely quite 

[00:29:14] Sam: terrifying.

Yeah. Yeah, around, yeah. Where like access to safe waters a problem potentially. I did a little just before I left, so the children was the start of the pandemic, so I did a little bit of work with the WHO around comms, just as we were trying to figure out what happens with COVID and breastfeeding and.

There was a push for mothers and infants to be separated again. 

[00:29:36] Emma Pickett: And who And who benefits from that? 

[00:29:38] Sam: Yeah. I mean, we 

[00:29:39] Emma Pickett: have to 

[00:29:39] Sam: remember that exactly who's influencing policy is interesting. And look, trying to look at what does the evidence say? Like if a mother has COVID, should she, should the baby be separated?

Should they therefore be formula fed or should she be expressing, does it transfer in breast milk? This was literally March, 2020. We were figuring this stuff out. 

[00:29:59] Emma Pickett: And in the early days, people were being taken away from their babies, weren't they? They were 

[00:30:03] Sam: literally being separated like. Saint John works in the US as well.

The move from sending your baby to a nursery after they're born. Like I think in the uk we've been rooming in for quite a long time. That's quite a normal practice. 

[00:30:17] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:30:18] Sam: But that had only been more of a recent sort of shift in the US in support of breastfeeding, like keeping mothers and babies together after birth.

[00:30:24] Emma Pickett: I mean, the rooming in thing is really interesting 'cause I think we've all seen American TV programs where, you know, all the babies are alive, our nursery, and we're like, whoa, that just feels really, really strange. There's a really famous book, the Politics of Breastfeeding by Gabrielle Palmer. Again, if you, he's Behind You in the shop.

Um, again, if you want to learn about this, read Gabrielle Palmer's book, watch the film, tigers. One of the things that Gabrielle Palmer talks about in the politics of breastfeeding is that formula companies got involved with the architecture of hospitals. And it, this sounds unbelievable. It sounds so evil that it doesn't sound possible.

Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, we have to remember that. Is it evil? I mean, somebody's been told to increase profits. They don't know the value of breastfeeding. They believe this is what they need to do to support their company. So literally, architects were being funded by formula companies and were being told to put the baby's nurseries a certain distance away from where the mothers were.

If the nurseries on a different floor were less likely to have breastfeeding getting established. Um, and when women don't establish breastfeeding in the early days, they're more likely to then go on to use the product. Yeah. And become formula feeding parents. So the idea about, oh, you know, let's give mother a rest and, and put the baby in the nursery.

You know, doesn't it sound benign? Doesn't it sound lovely and kind? But actually 

[00:31:41] Sam: still 

[00:31:41] Emma Pickett: underneath that there was some super scary stuff 

[00:31:45] Sam: going on. Yeah. Really intelligent policy design and influencing and that the money that exists there versus the money that is in. WHO or in breastfeeding organizations Yeah.

Is just, they're not comparable. 

[00:31:57] Emma Pickett: No, for sure. 

[00:31:58] Sam: In influence. 

[00:31:59] Emma Pickett: And what we're seeing today is, you know, the market, so the marketing, um, is, is controlled in the UK because some of the code got put into law as, as I'm sure you know. Mm-hmm. And, and so we're not allowed in the UK to advertise stage one formulas.

So stage two formulas. Exist. 

[00:32:17] Sam: Yeah. 

[00:32:17] Emma Pickett: So we can advertise them clearly 

[00:32:18] Sam: for that reason. 

[00:32:19] Emma Pickett: Yeah, they don't have to exist. Babies can have stage one formula throughout the first 12 months, but we're gonna create stage two formulas so we can advertise them. Um, and social media has just mean that meant that it's really difficult for companies to, um, be kept in check because you can get an influencer to talk about products.

You can flash up an advert the minute someone notices it's there and starts to challenge it, it's pulled down again. You know, there are companies that, um, cleverly make their packaging look very similar to say the stage one and stage two looks the same and 

[00:32:50] Sam: like the whole, it's sort of mum club support thing.

[00:32:53] Emma Pickett: Yep. 

[00:32:53] Sam: When you join those, you opt out of the legal protections that you would otherwise have. You're like, yes, it's okay for you to talk to me about these products. 

[00:33:02] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And we've even got lactation consultants involved. You know, there are even, there's even formula companies who are paying lactation consultants and lactation consultants are behaving unethically.

Oh, it's very bleak. I mean, we've had, you know, other health professionals for a long time being involved, but it's, it's really, really in a bad state of affairs. And as you say, the, the people on the other side of the, of the coin who are trying to talk about breastfeeding positively and prevent neutral information, present neutral information, are, there's no way they can compete with the billions and billions of dollars that are coming from the formula industry.

So, so baby Milk action's a good place to learn more about this. Yeah. I mentioned Gabrielle Palmer, first Steps Nutrition Trust. If anyone wants information about Formula and they want commercially neutral information, first Steps, nutrition Trust is the place to go. 

[00:33:49] Sam: Yeah. 

[00:33:49] Emma Pickett: Um, you don't wanna get information from the companies themselves.

You will not get accurate information. And yeah, I mean, we, we could talk about this forever. I did another podcast, podcast episode with, with Vicki, um, from First Steps Nutrition Trust, so people can listen to that as well.

I had love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got the story of Jesse's Milky, which is a picture book from two to six year olds that really tells the story of little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways. Maybe there'll be a new baby sister.

Maybe his mom will need to practice parenthood weaning. Maybe he'll have a self weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end. That we are there to support them through all of them, and also we sometimes have needs too.

Also on endings, we have supporting the transition from breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child. There are also chapters on different individual situations like weaning an older child when there's still a baby, feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation.

Then we have supporting breastfeeding past the first six months and beyond. That's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond. What are the common challenges and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey.

Then we have the breast book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14 year olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is. I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives.

So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley press website. That's uk.jkp.com. Use the code mm PE 10. To get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful.

It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you. 

[00:36:09] Sam: Basically, I learned all of that and got pulled in learning about all of that pre having children. 

[00:36:14] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That's amazing. I just imagine what it must be like for a young woman to go, whoa, hang on.

[00:36:19] Sam: So it was fascinating. And meeting up against like people's real life experiences of breastfeeding and, and the challenges around talking about this stuff. And, but then even with that, all of that context. I then went into my first breastfeeding journey with a goal of like 18 months was my goal. 

[00:36:39] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:36:39] Sam: I thought that was quite ambitious.

[00:36:40] Emma Pickett: Well, you see, make it sound like that wasn't long enough. I mean, that's still way ahead of 

[00:36:44] Sam: most, most people 

[00:36:44] Emma Pickett: in the uk 

[00:36:45] Sam: s but 

[00:36:45] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And it is. So, so you were pregnant and you were pregnant just after you left? Um, say the children? 

[00:36:52] Sam: Uh, no. I had the, I had her while I was working there. 

[00:36:54] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. 

[00:36:55] Sam: And carried on working in that space.

[00:36:57] Emma Pickett: Okay. And then, um. But what else did you know about breastfeeding? Is, did you, had you done any classes? Did you have any family members who breastfed? 

[00:37:04] Sam: So I'd done, um, NCT and we'd had like a breastfeeding evening, um, for the moms. 

[00:37:12] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:37:13] Sam: Yeah, I guess I felt like I was coming in quite informed. 

[00:37:16] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean you must have been knowing, you must have known a lot more about it than the average 

[00:37:18] Sam: person and the people I was working with, like I was because say the children obviously is such a huge, like, respected organiz.

I was like, yeah. Working directly with a lot of the like real experts in this space, which amazing. Yeah. Um, yeah, so I came in feeling fairly confident. That said, I then, when my daughter was born, had had a c-section. She latched straight on in recovery. It was great, and she sort of stayed there kind of on and off for like half a day, but then she had a really long sleep and all the midwives, like when the morning shift came on, there was a big panic and she was quite sleepy, not really wanting to feed, and they insisted she have a bottle of formula.

[00:38:08] Emma Pickett: Gosh, that's quite a strong word. Insisted. How did, how did you feel about that? 

[00:38:12] Sam: They took her from me and gave her a bottle of formula. 

[00:38:16] Emma Pickett: Whoa. 

[00:38:17] Sam: Okay. So I don't really, my memory of my husband's memory of it, it's all quite blurry and. I was just really, I was really upset. I'd got her back on feed. I had managed to get her feeding by the time they came back with the formula and they still said she needs this, but they hadn't sort of checked her blood sugar or anything.

[00:38:34] Emma Pickett: So they hadn't checked her blood sugar. Had they, had you been offered, supported to express? 

[00:38:38] Sam: No. 

[00:38:39] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:38:40] Sam: I just cried while they fed her a bottle on the other side of the room and they asked me what brand formula I wanted to sell. 

[00:38:45] Emma Pickett: Oh, 'cause that's giving you agency. Yes, Amy. We're not gonna, we're not gonna let you choose to feed your child.

But, we'll, 

[00:38:50] Sam: they were a bit annoyed. I didn't have any, uh, with me. Um, they were like, do you have a bottle for her? I was like, no. Um. Then they're like, oh, we think we can probably provide some what? Like, we'll go see what brand would you prefer if we've got it. 

[00:39:06] Emma Pickett: Oh, Sam, I'm sorry. 

[00:39:07] Sam: So that was rubbish. Yeah. Just despite everything I came in, how informed I came in.

[00:39:11] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that's, that is really not, not what we wanna be hearing. I'm so sorry. Okay. So apart from that breastfeeding carried on going. Okay. She 

[00:39:21] Sam: was then obviously quite full because she getting this like massive bottle of formula, like less than 24 hours old. Um, but then it, we were in a couple of nights and she did manage to like, kind of properly establish feeding and then was, yeah, it was fine.

[00:39:35] Emma Pickett: Okay. And I'm trying to work out, do my maths and work out how old she was when the pandemic hit. She was, 

[00:39:41] Sam: uh, she was just coming up to two. 

[00:39:42] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:39:43] Sam: That's a really interesting turning point because I just, I, she was in quite a lot of childcare. My husband and I both had busy, like big jobs. I, um, I actually started a new job right at the start of the pandemic.

Not, not a great time, but um, like, uh, we're busy working long hours commuting into Central London. I did spend, I did work hybrid after returning to work. Like even though pre pandemic, 

[00:40:09] Emma Pickett: yeah. Not many people were doing that at that point. So, uh, 

[00:40:12] Sam: yeah. So two days in the office, two days at home, um, compressed my week into those.

Um, had a day with my daughter, but so she was in some form of childcare, not with me four days a week. For like probably seven till seven-ish. 

[00:40:26] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:40:26] Sam: Probably, I'd say it was winding down a bit. Her feeding at that point. Obviously we, I think we'd at that point, maybe tried tonight. We once hadn't really worked out and we'd gone, I, I'd sort of gone out like, I'm not ready.

Like I'm, I think you've gotta be quite resilient in yourself and know it's the right decision for you to see it through, to be able to hold their emotions. Yeah. So I'd say right, we'll put it down and come back. Then the pandemic hit and I started this new job who had refused my flexible working application as well.

Agreed to pay me a higher salary instead of giving me a nine day fortnight. 

[00:40:59] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:40:59] Sam: And then the pandemic hit. Anyway, it all came completely moot. So I just read, breastfed her all day to be able to do my job. 

[00:41:08] Emma Pickett: So you were with her at home? 

[00:41:09] Sam: Yeah. 

[00:41:10] Emma Pickett: Having to work at the same time. So she was latched on, basically.

And that's how you made it, that's how you made it work. 

[00:41:16] Sam: Yeah. She just, she, she loved it anyways. 

[00:41:19] Emma Pickett: So you, you were like a kangaroo. 

[00:41:20] Sam: It was the easiest way to keep her quiet. And still, 

[00:41:24] Emma Pickett: so you are in meetings, typing away, working on your computer and she's just latch city, having a fantastic time. 

[00:41:31] Sam: Well, and at that point it was like.

Laptop on a coffee table sort of situation. 'cause it wasn't like we were all set up to work from home. 

[00:41:38] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, you make it sound like it worked, but it must have been pretty tough. 

[00:41:41] Sam: I mean, I mean it was pretty intense, but 

[00:41:44] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Bad. 

[00:41:45] Sam: It did work. 

[00:41:45] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:41:46] Sam: But it did massively then like escalate the breastfeeding that had been like sort of tapering down.

[00:41:52] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And I'm just wondering whether the reason she went on and as long as she did was the pandemic. 

[00:41:57] Sam: Well, it also meant we were feeding at home a lot. We weren't, I didn't ever really then have to navigate feeding a toddler out and about. 

[00:42:05] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:42:05] Sam: So she also had an egg allergy. Um, so I couldn't eat egg, which is in just so many things.

[00:42:13] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:42:14] Sam: Um. Actually the pandemic meant navigating. That was much easier 'cause we were just only ever at home and eating at home. I think I might have wanted to stop breastfeeding for navigating the allergy, potentially. I don't know if I were always out and about and in a normal working week going, you know, eating out, going to restaurants and stuff.

Yeah. That's really stressful when you've got an allergy baby. Yeah, but I didn't do that because there was a pandemic. 

[00:42:41] Emma Pickett: Okay. Yeah. Did you ever have any pressure from anyone else? Thinking through your breath? Obviously you referred her for beyond the average length. Yeah. Was anyone GI putting any pressure on you to stop?

[00:42:51] Sam: Not to stop? I think. I definitely, I, I got questions like from family, like, oh, are you still feeding 

[00:42:59] Emma Pickett: the loaded question? When are you going to stop? 

[00:43:02] Sam: Or even right at the beginning, like obviously when, when I was a baby, it was normal to give like baby rice to like a very small infant. And I was like, no, we don't need to start weaning.

Like, yeah, I'm putting that off as far as possible. Like that's, that's mess and hard work. Like, and she's fine on breast milk right now. Um, and I was like, literally my job was in infant feeding and nutrition. Like, we can, can we just accept that I'm like the most informed person in the room about. Yeah.

[00:43:30] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Well, you certainly knew your stuff, which was not gonna help. Um, let's talk a little bit about your other work, your work as a coach, and also helping people return to paid work. So I use, I use the term sort of life and career coach, but tell me, tell me what that means and, and what sort of stuff you've been doing in that space.

[00:43:46] Sam: I work one-to-one with people and mostly, like a lot of coaches end up working with people like themselves or who they would've needed. So I trained as a coach when, when my daughter was three, uh, before I had my son and settled my business just as I found out my son was on his way. So I wouldn't recommend starting a business in the first trimester of pregnancy, but I did.

And um, I really liked supporting women around that transition back to paid work. And often people come to me who are breastfeeding because that's something I talk about and we might connect over and people. Might be doing that thinking, oh, I need to change things. How change, how they go to sleep, how they nap suddenly at like nine, 10 months being, oh, I haven't done a bottle.

What do I do? And a lot of the people I support are going back around like a year. So, okay. Obviously exactly how you do that. Depends very much on the age of the child. And in terms of getting advice proper, like information advice, I'd point. There's kind of that line between like what's peer support and what's go, like call the national breastfeeding helpline or 

[00:44:56] Emma Pickett: Yeah.

[00:44:57] Sam: Um, get a bit more support, but often it's just about sort of normalizing a bit of that sharing, kind of helping people work out what they want. So my role as coach is typically asking questions and providing thinking space. 

[00:45:10] Emma Pickett: Okay. And sometimes helping people with career changes. I mean, I had a conversation with a mum last, yeah.

Last night literally who had a very high paced career and is now thinking, actually, hang on. I dunno if I can go back to that. I'm still feeding my 2-year-old and I'm not sure that works anymore. So. So one of the jobs of a coach is also just sort of. Big decisions, not just the little 

[00:45:33] Sam: decisions. Yeah, sometimes big decisions about like how to, like, how to go back changing of hours.

Also, sometimes like approaching this as a family, like if, you know, if there's more than one parent at home, just because like when the baby was smaller and you were breath, you know. If you're, if you're talking about like a four month old, it's a very different situation to talking about a one year-old or a toddler.

[00:46:00] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:46:00] Sam: And kind of how you support them and what that looks like and what comes with parenting that child. So sometimes there's all of that stuff as well. Um, because of our set up, a parental leave in the uk it can often be the case that moms and women take on. A lot of the child related load. And then so sometimes it's about working out how to make that work and distribute that.

[00:46:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:46:25] Sam: But then sometimes there is like a, I thought pre-children, you did your like 12 months and then it all kind of went back to normal and you had a child in childcare the day and then they slept at night. And if you needed a babysitter, you got babysitter. It just wasn't the case. That wasn't my experience.

And there's lots of people that I'm supporting who are navigating. Quite broken sleep and work. So that comes up a lot. 

[00:46:46] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking, you talked about having quite a, a demanding job while you were still night feeding and, and getting that broken sleep. I mean, there's a, a whole world of women out there doing that.

Um, yeah. And it's amazing. 

[00:46:59] Sam: It's quite hidden. 

[00:47:00] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:47:00] Sam: So we don't really necessarily talk about it. 

[00:47:03] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I, if you're breastfeeding a 2-year-old at night, your colleagues might not even know that you are. And, you know, if you're a breastfeeding mom or a breastfeeding parent, that is really very difficult to have that feeling of isolation as well as, um, the feeling of exhaustion as well.

You, you mentioned before that you had made a request for flexible work that had been denied. For anyone who doesn't know the kind of UK law, I mean, I, this is gonna sound a bit negative, but I think it's important to know how little protection we actually have in the UK compared to lots of other countries around the world.

Tell us what you mean when you say you put in a request and it was denied. How did that go? 

[00:47:35] Sam: Well, interestingly, the law has changed since then. So you can now put in like you are now able to make a request from day one of a job and a business has to formally consider it, and there are eight reasons they can turn it down.

It's relatively easy for a business to work at, make one of the, the case for one of those reasons though. 

[00:47:54] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:47:54] Sam: In my situation it was, I was starting a new job, so it was part of the negotiation. Around the terms and conditions of that job. 

[00:48:02] Emma Pickett: Okay, 

[00:48:03] Sam: so just because I wanted to sort of win something outta the negotiation, I negotiated more money, um, uh, but I was a bit worried about what that meant was gonna mean, uh, for work and.

Connection and time. I was like, oh, by the time I've been at the time, you had to be somewhere six months to then make a request. 

[00:48:25] Emma Pickett: Okay. Oh, that's no longer the case. That's good to hear. No, 

[00:48:28] Sam: but there were positive noises. But then I was like, oh, but she'll be starting school, and we, yeah, I, but then it all became moot because then the pandemic hit 

[00:48:38] Emma Pickett: after the pandemic came.

Yeah. 

[00:48:39] Sam: Yeah. 

[00:48:39] Emma Pickett: So the universe went, she will stay at home with her child. Yeah, she'll, yeah. Okay. 

[00:48:44] Sam: Yeah. 

[00:48:45] Emma Pickett: And then just for anyone who doesn't know, we have. Kind of case law that supports the need for breastfeeding breaks. Mm-hmm. And obviously your employer has a responsibility to keep you safe, but we don't really have a very clear law around people having the right to have paid breaks to express milk or to breastfeed.

[00:49:05] Sam: No, I've actually, uh, I was thinking this was something, I was thinking about this conversation as well, and I, I've, I've written a bit about it on my blog, kind of where we stand that Yeah. There's no explicit. Certainly the ins and outs of the US rules, but obviously in the US lots of moms return very, very early and there.

It probably varies state by state, but like that lactate protection for pumping time. 

[00:49:28] Emma Pickett: So you have federal law, 

[00:49:29] Sam: that's 

[00:49:29] Emma Pickett: the thing. 

[00:49:30] Sam: So 

[00:49:30] Emma Pickett: for companies over a certain size, there's federal law protection for pumping breaks and often additional state law as well. You know, there are countries very close to us.

Ireland has got, um, you know, the right to pay breastfeeding breaks. Yeah. Um, but I 

[00:49:42] Sam: think we can have rest. Right. Is 

[00:49:44] Emma Pickett: that, yeah. So in the law it says that have so much whole frail, weak, breastfeeding women because we're also whizzed and now malnourished, you're allowed to rest if you are pregnant and breastfeeding.

Yeah. But it doesn't say that that rest means that you can express at the same time. Um, no. So there should be a place to rest and the, and you're allowed to rest. What the hell that means? I can't even imagine. Um, and you know, traffic wardens and police officers are not exactly lying down in the street.

Um. But, but the law has not shown that that rest time could be used for expressing. But having said that, though, um, you know, acas has a document about breastfeeding in the workplace. The health and safety executive, you know, talk about good practice and, you know, employers aren't stupid. They know that if they don't provide breaks, if they don't provide places to store milk, they're not gonna hang on to their employees.

[00:50:32] Sam: Sort of could treating a breastfeeding parent differently, could amount to discrimination. Yes. Under the Equality Act. But 

[00:50:39] Emma Pickett: so we have had some case law. Um, there are bits and pieces of case law. Um, I think some lovely people are EasyJet, um, um, did a particular case. Um, so there are fragments of things that you can pull to make your case.

Yeah. But it's quite bitty, but I guess quite a lot of English. Uh, Scottish law is quite bitty. Um, you just have to pull things together and be, be confident and, and, and, and so many people don't understand our lack of rights that it's actually possible to go to your employer and say, yeah, yeah, you have to provide me with a break.

I've, I've heard this happen many times and employees like, yeah, of course we do. Of course, you know, obviously we assume that that's the case. 

[00:51:13] Sam: They sort of do health and safety like, 'cause you, you know, you could get sick. You could, you could, you could get mastitis. Mastitis. Yeah. 

[00:51:20] Emma Pickett: You could get 

[00:51:21] Sam: gorgeous for, and then you'd be off work.

And that would be worse for them. 

[00:51:23] Emma Pickett: Yeah, exactly. 

[00:51:24] Sam: E even just the, just fear, distraction of the discomfort. It really varied depending on, obviously when you're going back. Like my daughter I went back at, she was about one, so I pumped for a bit just for my own comfort until I didn't need to. But with my son, I went, I came, I was self-employed, so I was working again when he was four months old.

[00:51:43] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:51:44] Sam: Um, so then I was expressing while I was working, um, and providing bottle so that he could have that in a bottle with my husband while he was on chair parental leave. 

[00:51:52] Emma Pickett: Okay. Maternity action is a good place to look for information about this maternity action. Have an advice line as well on their website and and fact sheets on their website.

You mentioned shared parental leave, but there's been a conversation not so long ago about how the UK has failed dismally to take shared parental leave seriously and to really use shared parental leave. What was your experience? 

[00:52:14] Sam: Uh, it's really hard to apply for. It only made sense for us because I was self-employed, so.

My husband's workplace at the time had a really good policy where they paid up to six months full pay. So that was worked well. Although I had to literally phone HMRC and say, please stop giving maternity allowance to enable the shared parental leave to start. Okay. So I think because you have to give up your maternity way, it's designed, it takes maternity leave away from the mother, 

[00:52:44] Emma Pickett: okay?

[00:52:44] Sam: Like that part of the design is. It makes it really quite inaccessible. Often if you're in a heterosexual couple, the men are often paid more. 

[00:52:53] Emma Pickett: Yep. 

[00:52:53] Sam: Makes so it doesn't make sense. And their, 

[00:52:55] Emma Pickett: and their workplace is not necessarily, it doesn't necessarily have a culture that's supportive of 

[00:53:00] Sam: That's sense what's been going on.

It makes, 

[00:53:01] Emma Pickett: yeah, 

[00:53:02] Sam: like, and it, it worked really well, but it was particularly particular set of circumstances. But I think this is where things like the dad shift campaign. Pregnant and screwed in campaigning on it to try and get a sort of protected paternity leave. 

[00:53:16] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:53:17] Sam: Or leave for partners that is like ring-fenced for them rather than it being dependent on the mother giving up her leave.

[00:53:25] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Does seem extraordinary how some countries can have such a different experience and how, you know, you hear everybody gets to have a year off. I mean, I, I understand how it, how it's being paid for in some countries, but we've got no, I mean, people are worrying about the birth rates in the developed world.

People are worrying about, you know, the low birth rates in the uk. That's not gonna change unless we sort out the cost of childcare and we sort out things like this. Um, 

[00:53:50] Sam: yeah. 

[00:53:50] Emma Pickett: And the people are shocked that people are not having kids until they're in their mid thirties. Well, it's not rocket science. If you can't afford to do it, it's not gonna happen.

So you, you've got where you wear lots of hats, Sam. Yeah. I'm impressed with all the hats that you wear. Um, 

[00:54:03] Sam: thank 

[00:54:03] Emma Pickett: you. Where do you think your breastfeeding's journey's gonna go with, with your son? Are you going to just let him hang on and see how long he wants to feed for and wait and see what life's like with baby?

[00:54:13] Sam: Yeah. Um. Sort of path of least resistance. Like, um, it is still a bit uncomfortable, which is annoying me because that eased a lot earlier in pregnancy. 

[00:54:25] Emma Pickett: Yeah. It's not latching related, I'm guessing as a peer supporter, you know what you're 

[00:54:28] Sam: looking for, positioning. It's just, yeah, like, like I, sometimes it is, sometimes it's sens.

It's mostly sensitivity. Uh, sometimes he sleeps all night as well. If he's in nursery, he loves his food, loves snacking, like he could quite happily go sort of bedtime to bedtime. 

[00:54:49] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:54:50] Sam: Some of the time. So we'll see. 

[00:54:52] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Well, well I do hope it gets a bit easier in terms of 

[00:54:55] Sam: it's discomfort. It really comforting for him as well though.

Like so like he hates getting dressed. He was really upset after getting dressed this morning, so I fed him to help him calm down and. I wouldn't want to not have that at my disposal. 

[00:55:11] Emma Pickett: Yeah, it's a superpower, isn't it? And you don't wanna lose your superpower unless you need to. Yeah. Um, well very best of luck for the rest of your pregnancy and I do hope things get comfortable.

Um, thank you. Is there anything we haven't talked about? We've talked about lots of different things. Yeah. But is there anything we haven't talked about that you thought you really wanted to make sure we mentioned? 

[00:55:27] Sam: Um, no. I dunno. I guess we haven't taught the thing. We talked a bit about my experience with, in the hospital with my daughter and like, as a result of that, I then.

Like made sure to harvest loads of colostrum for my son, although I did forget to take it to the hospital. So that's like 

[00:55:44] Emma Pickett: someone could have run and got it. 

[00:55:45] Sam: Someone could have 

[00:55:46] Emma Pickett: and got it 

[00:55:47] Sam: if it was needed. But that's my plan again this time. Although remember to take to hospital. That. Yeah. I'm sure you've covered that probably in other podcasts as well.

But that's something I'll be planning. That's probably my next breastfeeding thing that happens. And then obviously a new baby. 

[00:56:01] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:56:02] Sam: And see what happens. See what my son makes of can. Yeah. We, it, it does help that we've had a book to read about, like the, there's not, um, I was speaking, we were, I was a lecture league group for breastfeeding older children recently.

Um, they said they, they're not really aware of any other. Kind of children's books that cover that tandem feeding. So the Jesse's milk, having already talked about it is really helpful, I think, for him. Oh, 

[00:56:26] Emma Pickett: thank you. Yeah, I tried to do a book that covered lots of jobs, so I'm glad it covered that. Yeah, I 

[00:56:30] Sam: like to sort of choose your own adventure.

[00:56:32] Emma Pickett: Yes, that's exactly what I was going for, so thank you for referring to that. Well, very best of luck and I really am grateful for your time today and uh, yeah, I'd be love to hear how things work out. Let me know how the term and feeding works out and how things go. 

[00:56:46] Sam: Will do.

[00:56:51] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist. And leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.