Georgina's story - slow to solids

Today, I’m joined by the lovely Georgina Gregor from Devon to talk about her breastfeeding journeys with her two children, three-year-old Amaya and nine-month-old Lucas. Georgina recounts early breastfeeding pain, mastitis, hospital readmission for Amaya’s 13.7% weight loss, and a later tongue-tie diagnosis and release at 10 months linked to solids difficulties. Amaya’s disinterest in food and love of breastfeeding meant that her start with solids was slow, and Georgina had to carry on with patience. She shares weaning Amaya while pregnant: a significant supply drop around nine weeks, night weaning using the Booby Moon story, partner support, and a gradual daytime fade, alongside nausea and breastfeeding aversion in pregnancy. Lucas’s tongue tie was treated promptly. He is feeding on demand and co-sleeping with frequent night feeds. He is much more keen on food than his sister was at this age.
Georgina also discusses family pressure, helpful resources, and her new role as an infant feeding peer support volunteer.

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, by going to https://bit.ly/JKPbooks and using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

Resources mentioned - 

@‌drgreerkirshenbaum on Instagram

Charlotte Stirling-Reed https://www.srnutrition.co.uk/

plymouth-latchon.org.uk

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, 

breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. 

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I am going to be talking to Georgina.

That's Georgina Gregor from Devon. Plymouth area for anyone who know who likes a bit of Devon. Um, we're gonna be talking about her breastfeeding journeys with her two children, 3-year-old Amaya and nine month old. Lucas, thank you very much for joining me today, Georgina. I really appreciate it. 

Hello. 

So you're currently still breastfeeding Lucas?

Yes, I am. Very much so. 

And I spent a lot of time talking to people about breastfeeding older children. So it's actually good to remember that there are people still fitting nine months olds and eight months olds. Absolutely. And three months old out there. So tell us for anyone who's not in this space. A typical 24 hours looks like for Lucas and his breastfeeding journey.

I'm very much feeding on demand at the moment. Um, he wakes up in the morning, um, he'll have, uh, a feed straight away even though he's been pretty much feeding on and off all night. Uh, we actually co-sleep. Um, so haven't even bothered trying to do anything different this time because I know that co-sleeping and breastfeeding sort of goes hand in hand a little bit.

So first thing, he has his feed, even though he's pretty much been feeding all night, and then he'll have his breakfast, uh, when we get up with his sister. So, um, they kind of sit down together and have their breakfast. He's, he's a good eater actually, which is a bit different for me 'cause my daughter wasn't 

okay.

And then he'll have two naps normally, so he'll have a, a feed before his first nap and then a feed before his second nap in the afternoon. And then I feed him to sleep before bed as well. So, um, but very much like kind of throughout the day if he wants feeding, I'll just let him have it whenever he wants it.

And, um. He has been quite poorly this winter. Um, obviously having a three, 3-year-old sister has had a huge impact on that, so he's just constantly catching viruses and stuff and obviously teething and whatnot. So I'm very aware that he can just sort of have it whenever he wants and then, yeah. 

Yeah.

And what's a typical night for him?

So you say you're co-sleeping. 

Yeah. This 

is the story I hear so often. People don't, people are selling their cots for baby number two, they're not even bothering to try. 

Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Does he have a space that he goes in, like at the beginning of the evening? How do you sort things out?

No. So initially, yes.

So I had like the next to me cot and um, he was sort of going in there and I was actually quite surprised he would, I'd put him down, um, after a feed and he'd sort of be awake. Pat him back to sleep a little bit. I was very surprised by that. 'cause my daughter was nothing like it. But then he outgrew it really quickly 'cause he's a 98 percentile baby.

So Outgrew his next to me crib before the six months, uh, which it was meant to last for. Um, and then I did have a, I do have my daughter's old cot, which we bought a new mattress for. 'cause apparently he's supposed to change the mattress. Yep. So bought a new mattress. He's not slept in it once. 

This is not the first time I've had it.

It's a lovely 

storage area 

area. A nice laundry 

storage area. 

No, that's literally what I use 

it for. And he'll sometimes like sit in there if I'm sort of, you know, doing the laundry or whatever. But, um, yeah, he, he gets annoyed quite easily. He doesn't really wanna be in there. And actually I've tried putting him down for a nap in there before and stuff and I just really struggled to settle him.

'cause um, you can't like, put your hand through the. Through the rails. It's just, it's just awkward. So what I just do now is I sleep with him in the, um, in the super king bed that we've got, which is very much just me and him sleeping in there. Um, so I put him, I put him down for the night in there, and I actually will go downstairs and watch, tell with, with my, uh, fiance if he's, if I'm not too tired sometimes I'll just fall asleep.

And then he tends to wake up when I go back upstairs, actually. Um, so he'll, he'll do quite well at the beginning. I'll go back upstairs, I'll give him a quick feed before I fall asleep. And recently he's only been waking up a couple of times for feeds throughout the night. Um, so maybe at like 2 30, 3 o'clock he'll wake up.

Then again at five, um, normally at five he'll need a nappy change 'cause he, he's quite heavy, sort of wetter, so that's a bit annoying because sometimes it'll like go through his outfit. But yeah, we don't share like, you know, duvet. I'm very much like careful about, you know, doing like c car position. Um, he has his own sort of sleeping bag and whatnot and just, I just find it easier.

I just think I don't have to try and put him into something else. He can just wake up whenever he wants. Um, I'm getting more sleep. And then my fiance is with my daughter in her bed, so she's got a, um, floor bed and, 'cause we, we co-slept as well in the end, uh, after battling for a very long time of trying to get her in the cot.

She just wouldn't want it. And then I think she got like a, I can't remember what she got, some sort of like illness. I think it was, um. Oh, she had croup, so we were sort of told you have to co-sleep for that. Okay. From, so, and I was, I was really tired during my pregnancy, so I just sort of had her in with me.

Joe got booted out into the sink, into the spare room and we decided to get a floor bed. And um, when Lucas was born, Joe went into the floor bed, but we got a double one. Went in there with her and then he's just sort of stayed in there with her. And I think, um. She says, daddy keeps me safe. And it just, it's really nice.

And I think obviously it would be great for her to get used to being on her own a bit more. But at the moment everyone's getting good sleep and I think that's the most important thing. 

Yeah. And she's 

three, I mean, we've 

gotta remember 

the idea that people sleep alone. Yeah. Is, is very cultural, isn't it?

The idea that, 

you know, absolutely 

good little people inverter sleep independently. Yeah. And where does that really come from? And ironically, the adults are the ones that get to sleep together. I mean, and, and little people don't. It's just mad that we think it's completely okay for adults to never want to sleep alone and wouldn't always want to sleep with their partner.

But little people aren't meant to feel that way. 

So true. 

So you just touched on there a minute ago that Amaya was feeding for a little bit of your pregnancy. 

Yeah. 

So let's talk about weaning, 'cause I love to talk about weaning. Mm-hmm. So let's talk about, in a minute, we'll talk about the beginning of her journey and some of the struggles you went through.

Yeah. Particularly around solids. 

But let's talk about her ending first of all. So, so you were pregnant with Lucas when her breastfeeding journey ended. Talk us through your breastfeeding and pregnancy experience. 

Yeah, that was, that was actually quite tough. Um, I got pregnant with Lucas quite quickly. I wasn't really planning on, on, um, how getting pregnant so quickly the second time round.

And I hadn't really planned anything, you know, I just sort of, it sort of just happened and I was very happy. Um, but yeah, she was very much a boob monster. She was obsessed. 

So when you got pregnant, how many times was she feeding in 24 hours? 'cause some people listen to this, are quite interested in that because they're thinking about fertility and, and breastfeeding.

Yeah, so she was feeding, um, I would say, well, some nights it would be like, it, it got to the point where it was like every hour in the night. So it's really tiring. And she, she wouldn't be very happy to be unlatched or anything like that. So she was really. Really wanting that sort of, sort of connection.

And she was feeding a lot throughout the day as well. Um, and she was, she had solids, but it was very much like on the side and not really, um, like she, it was more for the tastes rather than it, I don't feel like that, I feel like the breast milk was actually her main source of nutrition. Okay. So this is at two, she's, she's past two and this is where you still are?

So breast milk. Breast milk. Well, actually it was just, just before she turned two, so she would've been about 20 months old. Okay. When I got pregnant with Lucas. Okay. So then when I got, when I found out I was pregnant, um, I was not really sure how to, how to wean her I'd, it, it'd always been on my mind that I kind of wanted to wean before getting, um, having the baby.

I didn't want tandem feed. Um, very much think it's amazing for people that can do that. But um, I was already, um, sometimes just struggling a bit in the nights and stuff with like the wakes and, and, and whatnot. So I was kind of hoping to at least night wean. So I sort of, I did so much research on it. I read so many different things and I sort of realized.

There's no actual real right or wrong way to do this. And there's no, you know, for me what was important was just, just really be there for AAmaya throughout the night when she needed me. And, 'cause we were co-sleeping anyway, I didn't wanna then move her into her own bed and wean her at the same time. I thought that was like, a bit too much.

Yeah. So co-sleeping was still very important to me. So, so basically when I got to nine weeks pregnant, when I found, obviously found out when I was about five weeks pregnant actually. And then when I was about nine weeks pregnant, I noticed that my milk supply massively dropped. Yes. So I basically had no milk left.

So she, she was wanting to feed even more because she was probably thinking like, where's my lovely milk? I can't, there's nothing coming out. Yeah. Um, so I just, I made the decision tonight. Ween, um, I actually let listen to a lot of your podcasts, um, on Spotify. I did quite a bit of like, you know, research et cetera on it.

And I just, I just did it in like, sort of the way that I thought was most natural. I, I read her the, um. Booby moon. Mm-hmm. Story, which she, she really liked that. Um, and I, I did that exact thing where you sort of say, okay, we're not gonna have any milk tonight, but in the morning, um, you can have it when the sun comes up.

And the first night she just like screamed bloody murder and she's like, all night really, really unhappy. But every time she cried and she would, she'd called it boo So she'd be like boo boo throughout the night. And um, I would just have to just like, cuddle her and say, it's okay. Mommy's here. We've got to wait until the morning.

And I was, I tried to be so strong with it and I was very lucky to have supportive partner. Really. Joe was so great throughout it. And he just sort of, um, when he heard her going sort of crazy in the night, he'd, he'd come in and like, help me to comfort her. And he was really there throughout it. And actually the second night, he then would come, he came in before bedtime to start reading.

He would like. Or during the bedtime routine and we'd like read stories together in the bed. 

Okay. 

So he was sort of there throughout it. 

So at this point you're still doing the bedtime feed? 

Yeah. The 

bed were was, you were, was saying to her, so, so you, so did you say you used booby moon or nurses when the sun shines?

It was Booby 

Moon. Okay. But you adapted it to say Morning milk was available just at night. So you, you got your own story going? I did, and then 

I got my own story 

going. Yeah. But that's, that's, that's what it's all about. I think it's so important that people do adapt it and create their own ownership of something.

So, so you did the bedtime feed, then you gave them the message that milk's gone to sleep or milk's not around till the morning. 

Yeah. 

Um, and then you held on until literally the sun was coming up. So did you actually have a marker of when we can see light through the curtains? How did you know when morning was?

Yeah, it was when we saw light through the curtains, but it was about 6:00 AM I didn't want to give her feed before then. And I won't lie, I, I, I must have caved a couple of times and sometimes it got to 5:00 AM and she was really at 5:00 AM she'd get really upset. So I would say the first three nights were the hardest.

And then after that I was so surprised she suddenly just started sleeping through the night until about five in the morning. And at five in the morning, like pretty much every day for the next like month, she would wake up and ask for it. Sometimes I'd give it to her, sometimes I'd try and hold out a little bit longer.

But what really, really helped was having Joe involved. And basically when Joe was there before, like during the bedtime routine, she sort of like her bond. I just suddenly started to see their bond getting better. And in the morning what he would do is first thing in the morning he'd say, let's go upstairs for milk and 'cause we have an upside down house, or we did then, um, he'd say, let's go upstairs for, um, milk and biscuits.

And in the end, slowly, slowly, slowly, she would actually stop asking for the morning feed and Joe would come in and say, let's go upstairs for milk and biscuits. And they'd go for milk and biscuits and she'd almost, that would be a distraction for her. Okay. And again, during the nighttime, um, slowly, slowly, slowly, she then would stop asking for the nighttime feed because she'd just do stories and fall asleep.

Okay. With the two of, we'd always have to be the two of us in the bed with her though. She said she wanted all of us. 

So the bedtime feed just faded away. She would just, 

just faded 

away. Gradual, start asking less and less. I'm just trying to think what it must've been like to do that night weaning when you are, you know, nine, 10 weeks pregnant.

That's tough. You must have been so tired the next day. You must have been so drained and exhausted. That's really, really, 

yeah. And I thought it was going really well. Um, so the first three nights, obviously she started sleeping really well, which was good. 'cause that was kind of my goal with it as well.

But we went to center parks on a family holiday and that, it just regressed. She started like, you know, she really wasn't happy there. And her, her, um, behavior was quite different throughout the day. So she started asking for it more during the day because she wasn't getting it in the night. Okay. Which obviously eventually I wanted to cut that down as well.

But actually because she was feeling less in the night, she started eating more in the day because I guess she was getting most of her milk during the night. 'cause that's when she was less distracted. Yeah. 'cause obviously toddlers are playing all the time. So in the day she started eat, I, I noticed she started eating a.

Her solid intake started increasing quite a lot. 

Okay. 

So that helped quite a bit. Um, with that, I guess. 

So the daytime feeds just naturally started to fade away. You didn't have to, 

yeah. You 

didn't consciously have to wean them necessarily. 

I did, I did have to. There were quite a few times where I had to consciously when it, you know, the, the time started running out where I was like, I want to sort of be done by the time I have Lucas and some day she'd want it more than others and I, or like, you know, we'd go a month of it to go going really well and then one day she'd suddenly want it more if she was poorly or something like that.

And I was very aware of that. But eventually it got to the point where she would just sort of say she wanted it when, like, if she'd like hurt herself or she'd fallen over or like she, if she wanted that extra bit of comfort, but she would never ask for it throughout the night anymore and she wasn't having the night or the morning feed anymore.

Mm-hmm. 

How about naps? What was happening at nap time? 

Nap time I was. I think she was down to one nap a day by then and she would probably ask, we would normally do it before the nap. Yeah. We would normally do breastfeeding, but she was at, um, sometimes I would just take her for a drive. 

Okay. 

Um, and she'd fall asleep in the car and more, mainly because I used to find nap time.

It was quite hard getting her to nap anyway, by that age she'd sort of at the point where she was nearly dropping the nap anyway. 'cause she's not, she's a baby that's got quite like, or a child that's got quite low sleep needs. Okay. Always has been. 

Okay. 

So yeah, she sort of, um, it wasn't really hard to do the last like, sort of day time, but I felt like the day was easier.

It was when I went to hospital, uh, our last feeds, I went to hospital to get checked out 'cause I was having some like pains in my stomach. I thought I was, um, in early labor or something. Came back and she asked for a feed then. And I remember that last feed. And then after that she just didn't ask for it anymore.

Okay. I actually remember feeling quite sad. Oh. 

So how many weeks pregnant was you, were you when she finally 

stopped? I was seven months pregnant. Okay. So, yeah. I, I actually wrote it in my calendar. I think it was like the 5th of March or something like our last feed. Oh. Uh, it was very emotional. I wish I'd done one of those necklaces or something.

Really? 'cause uh, didn't, I don't have anything to sort of remember it, but my main, my main concern was actually when Lucas was born. I thought she was gonna ask for it again. Yeah. I was 

gonna ask just about to ask you about that. What was it like? 'cause 

obviously two 

months isn't so long. Lots of 

children would 

be asking, how did that go?

Um, 'cause also we just moved house as well, so that's quite a big change in her life. And, um, so basically she, she, I was just so surprised she just didn't, didn't like, didn't even ask or anything. She just sort of, what, what she did do though, which is very interesting. She's got this dolly that she really likes.

Um, she calls her tiny, I think it's like a tiny tears do. Uh, baby. She basically would sit next to me on the sofa, uh, when I was feeding. And I had a lot of issues with Lucas when I first died, feeding him, actually, which I can talk about as well. But I would sit with her on the sofa. She would sit next to me and just basically copy me, like do the same.

Okay. Feed her baby next to me. Um, and that, I think that was like her way of maybe she felt a bit more like grown up and like she was doing the same sort of thing as as her mum, which is really sweet. Yeah, 

that's lovely. But so she never asked to latch on? She never asked to feed? No. No distress when Lucas was feeding 

nothing at all like that?

No, I was surprised and I think it's because of how like it was quite a slow weaning journey and it wasn't like really quick. Obviously I did the night weaning, but then after that she was continuing to sort of feed. Yeah. Um, I think she understood it. She was older, she was a bit older than like maybe, I dunno, people sometimes wean a bit earlier than that.

So she's always been quite a good talker as well and she communicates quite well. So I think that helped as well. We were just able to sort of, I dunno, she was able to actually understand and I, with the booty moon story, it's about giving it to the other babies, isn't it? Yeah. So, um, she knew that it was sort of for him now.

Um, and then she just sort of copied me. I mean, there's been a few times when we've been in the bath, even now, she'll be like, oh, mommy, can I, like, can I have some? And I'll just let her like, you know, latch on, just, she doesn't even know how to latch on anymore. So she'll just like pretend. But it's more of a control thing trying to like, you know, it's, it's not just his, it's mine as well.

Yeah. That's her 

just asking for a bit of agency, isn't it? But 

yeah, absolutely. Does it sound like 

she's, it doesn't sound like there's a lot of deep emotional need behind it. It's just a kind of a play, 

playful, 

experimenting kind of experience. 

And sometimes I'll give her, I, I even like if she's been poorly or something, I'll like put a little bit in her, like wheater bit or whatever she's having for breakfast.

I don't know. I don't know if it does anything. 

So, so Georgina, you haven't weaned her at all, is what, is what we're learning 

Actually, I'm just feeding out all the time. No, she's, 

she's still getting your milk. So technically she is still breastfeeding if you are, if you are putting your milk in her cereal.

Technically she hasn't finished breastfeeding. 

I mean, I think I've done it once or twice, but Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's true actually. Yeah, she's probably getting some benefits from it still. 

No, she def definitely is. I mean, listen, you get to define it however you want, but I would say with my lactation consultant hat on, she is still receiving your breast milk from what you're saying.

Yeah. 

Um, and, and, um, yeah, and getting those lovely antibodies, which is helpful too. But I, I think you're right that because that ending, that daytime weaning was gentle, there wasn't really for her, that sense of loss, that sense of injustice. Um, and I think if someone does wean at seven months and it's harsher and more difficult and, and there is a lot more of a sense of loss and bereavement for the child, I think they're the ones who are probably gonna get a bit more trouble when newborn babies born, if they don't want to turn them feed, they're gonna get lots of requests.

And, and also I, one thing I didn't mention is like I did actually get quite a lot of, um, breastfeeding aversion. I really found that was part of the reason why I also, during pregnancy, you know, really during pregnancy I had, you know, my nipples were really, every time she'd sort of latch on, I just used to have this urgent urge to sort of wanna like, take her off.

I just really didn't want her feeding anymore. And that, that was quite sad for me, really, because I, I wasn't expecting to feel that way so quickly. Yeah. So every time I fed her, um, I didn't enjoy it throughout my pregnancy, basically. That's, that's tough. That's tough. And you 

mentioned you had some sickness.

Tell 

us a bit more about that. Yeah, so I had, um, yeah, I had like nausea, um, really bad nausea throughout my first trimester until I was about 16 weeks pregnant. I had the same with her as well, but it's slightly different when you've got a toddler running around and wanting to play and, and whatnot. So that was quite hard.

Um, and also I was working but only until the end of December and I was only, she was going to nursery, but just for the mornings, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. Um, so. I was with her most of the time and I just found, yeah, I found pregnancy quite hard. I was very tired a lot of the time. 

Yeah, 

it's much, I found it much harder this time round.

Maybe my body's more tired as well. 

Yeah. I'm trying to imagine what it must be like the first nine weeks of your pregnancy feeding a booby monster, feeding frequently through the night, feeding every hour. 

Mm-hmm. 

She wasn't really eating solid. She was completely dependent on you for food. Yeah. That's an intense time.

That must have been a really, really tough time. I, I think anyone would blame me. It, it was tough feeling the need to change that, um, and, and to feeling the need to night. We, 

but equally, I think if I'd wanted to, if I actually had the feeling that I wanted a tandem feed, I would've definitely just got gotten through it.

Like if I had to do, you know what I mean? I would've just thought, okay, let's just keep going. 'cause I know that the end's sort of there, but my end goal was to sort of stop before he, he came along. So, yeah. 

I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got the story of Jesse's Milky, which is a picture book from two to six year olds.

That really tells the story of Little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways. Maybe there'll be a new baby sister. Maybe his mom will need to practice parenthood weaning. Maybe he will have a self weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we are there to support them through all of them.

And also we sometimes have needs too. Also, on endings, we have supporting the transition from breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child. There are also chapters on different individual situations like weaning an older child when there's still a baby, feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation.

Then we have supporting breastfeeding past the first six months and beyond. That's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond. What are the common challenges and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey.

Then we have the breast book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14 year olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is. I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives.

So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley Press website. That's uk.jkp.com. Use the code mm PE 10. To get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful.

It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you. Let's go back to the beginning of AAmaya's breastfeeding journey. Before you had AAmaya, what was your kind of relationship to breastfeeding? Any family history, any kind of close friends?

Not really, no. I, um, I didn't really know an awful, I mean, I did, I obviously, I did my NCT course, so I had the breastfeeding in that, um, breastfeeding course within that. But really, I wasn't really that, uh, clued up on breastfeeding, to be honest. But I did want to breastfeed. Um, I wanted to give it a go, but I wasn't, I wasn't gonna be really gutted if I didn't.

I wasn't able to, I wasn't putting an awful lot of pressure on myself. So it was when, it was, when AAmaya was actually born, she was fine for the fir, like I thought she was feeding fine and I was getting quite a lot of pain. And actually my nipples were like lipstick shaped a little bit. Um, so I don't know, something wasn't going well and I got, I had a mastitis a few times, but basically on day five, I believe we were readmitted into hospital because she'd dropped, uh, like I think 13% of her birth weight.

Okay. Which was quite significant. Yeah. That's scary. Um, so we got, I think it was 13.7 actually. Yeah. So we got, um, readmitted, which I was really gutted about because I've had all the hormones going on and all of that, and I thought it was like the end of the world. I thought I'd done something really wrong.

Like I wasn't doing things properly. She was feeding like she wanted to feed all the time, but that's what newborns are like. Um, but yeah, basically my milk just took age, had taken quite a long time to come in. Do you have a sense what, why that was? Was there anything Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I, I do, I now know I basically went to see a private lactation consultant when am I was 10 months old because.

When we started her on solids, she was just very, very slow with it. But not just that she was gagging a lot, um, but it was like, it led to almost choking quite a few times. Um, and it was, she was, I noticed that she was really struggling to move the food around her mouth with her tongue. And it was just like her tongue just wasn't moving well and she couldn't really poke her tongue out.

And I noticed it had a heart shape. So I took her to a private lactation consultant near us who deals with tongue ties. And she was 10 months old. She instantly told us that she had a tongue tie. She showed us the tongue tie and it just, it was actually like quite refreshing to hear that that was the case because I, I suspected it the whole time, but I didn't know enough about that sort of thing at the beginning, otherwise I probably would've got 'em to do a bit more sort of analysis on it.

Yeah. 

And she said, you can have it done here and now, or you can wait a little bit and come back. So we went, we went away. We had a talk about it and 'cause am, Amaya didn't have loads of teeth. She was able to do it. 'cause I think through the NHS she would've had to have gone under general anesthetic. Yeah, yeah.

Um, but yeah, the, the lactation consultant treated it. Um, and then after that there was quite an improvement in terms of how she was moving the food around her mouth. The all didn't take, didn't increase, but Okay. Um, 

her abilities increased, 

but yeah. But breastfeeding was always, even by 10 months it was, I was still finding it somewhat painful.

Gosh, 

that's a long, long time, Georgina to 

be. Yeah. 

Just, just for anyone who's listening, it definitely would've explained that that 13% weight loss, if, if obviously if the tongue's not functioning properly and latching and positioning really barrier, that that would've made sense, wouldn't necessarily have explained your milk coming in late.

Because the process of milk coming in is about loss of the placenta, and that's kind of hormone driven rather than milk removal driven. 

Yeah. Yeah. 

But I can definitely see why it would've caused early complications of feeding. Gosh, that's a long time to be in pain. And you, and you didn't have any sort of real in-person support in those early weeks?

No. You just powered through and just kept going. 

I got, I had a Zoom call with a lactation consultant, um, through the infant feeding team, um, in, in Plymouth. I dunno if she was actually from Plymouth, but I don't know. But, um, I had a Zoom call with her and she was helping me with latching and positioning.

But how, how easily can you do that when you are on a Zoom call with somebody? Like she couldn't really see me that well. I think in person would've been much more valuable. And I know that, I know that it's improved since then in this area they've got more resource. Um, but I think back then that wasn't the case.

So, yeah. Yeah. I think, um, that would've helped a lot. And I think she was never checked for tongue tie. Okay. I think I remember a midwife saying, oh, when we went in on, uh, when we had to be re readmitted to hospital, she said, oh, I think this baby might have a tongue tie. And then. I then mentioned it to another nurse who walked around 'cause it was just sort of mentioned in passing.

She checked in and she went, oh, I'm not convinced about that. She sort of just looked in, she didn't really, didn't put her finger finger and didn't look for movement or no assess. And I obviously thought, oh great. Like, you know, I didn't want my daughter to have to have her tongue tight knit. 'cause I was like a, you know, new mom.

I was worried about all of that sort of stuff. So, um, really, it probably would've been the best thing in the world. And it, it's not a very invasive procedure really. I mean it is, but it's not, I don't think it's, it's better to get it done younger when she was 10 months. Yeah. She was more aware. I 

don't often hear people having it done at 10 months.

Um, that's an un 

that's an 

unusual scenario. And, and there's nice guidance is normally about, um, you know, breastfeeding outcomes and assessments and doing it early rather than, rather than later. 

Yeah, yeah, 

yeah. I mean, you're really highlighting the variation in the service that people get around the country.

It is extraordinary, isn't it? That, that somebody who isn't obviously, isn't trained in tongue tie assessment is able to kind of say, oh no, your baby doesn't have a tongue tie when they obviously haven't even got the training. There's just, there's such a massive variation. It's just deeply, deeply unfair.

Yeah. So I guess on one level, amazing. That you kept going for 10 months. I mean it, despite the discomfort and the pain. Yeah. Really, I mean, for somebody who, the mastitis, I mean the mastitis as well. For somebody who said, oh, I was just gonna give myself a go and I wasn't gonna put too much pressure myself, here you are in pain for 10 months.

What, what kept you going through that whole time? 

I actually just really loved it. I really liked, I really liked the bond that I, and I obviously did, started doing more research, uh, about it. I bought the Che book, um, the 

Art of Breastfeeding. 

That's, it used to be the woman, the art is now just the art. I think it does say the woman, the one I've got still says the Womanly Art.

But yeah, I've got that one. Um, and I just really, I really buy into the whole, um, sort of brain development side of things. Um, and, you know, I, I, I, I just know, I, I read into all the, the positive, um, health benefits from breastfeeding. I saw how important it was for her on so many occasions. And yeah, I just, I just really liked it.

I really liked breastfeeding and I didn't, didn't want to feed formula really. I just thought I'm, I'm able to do this. I'm off work, I'm gonna try my best. But yeah, certainly wasn't easy. And I think when it got to 10 months when she had the tongue tie snip, I did notice a huge change in the, in the feeding.

You mentioned you had mastitis a few times. Was, was that in the early days or did it carry on being a problem? 

I had it a few times throughout those, those 10 months actually. Um, yeah, I, so it was in the early days definitely I had it and I, I remember thinking like, you know, I dunno if I'm gonna be able to carry on 'cause I had a really painful nipple and mastitis and you know, all of that sort of stuff.

So, um, I think I've just remember thinking, I dunno if I can carry on with this, but I really, really wanted to. Yeah, I think I'm one of these people that like, once I. I once I, once I want something, I want, I just try and carry on as much as I can, you know? 

Yeah. Well that's blooming evident for sure. I mean, it's clear.

Clear how I put 

myself at. Yeah. Putting myself at a bit of, yeah, 

I guess, I guess if I had a little magic wand, I would love you to have got some more help. I think there was, I think there was part of you that was thinking, okay, well, I've been told she doesn't have a tongue tie. I've just gotta keep going.

But no one was, no one else came along and said, no, Georgina, you should not be in pain at five months, six months, seven months, eight months. 

Yeah. No, nobody, nobody. And, um, it wasn't like, it was like, man, it was only, it wasn't really, really painful all the time, but sometimes it was worse than others. So I think when she had the tongue tie step, I just suddenly noticed that like, it was just soft.

Like, it just felt like softer. Okay. The breastfeeding felt softer and it wasn't like that really hard. It was like, it felt sore sometimes after a feed. Didn't, I didn't have that anymore. You thought that was normal by 

the sounds of it, it sounds 

like you thought that was. That everyone who's 

breastfeeding is just having rough days and sore moments.

Yeah. And just 

thought that's what everyone went through. 

Yeah, exactly. And um, and the thing is she did then gain weight again and all of that. So I guess they thought, well, she's effectively removing, you know, milk, so she's okay. But, but yeah, it's not all about the weight gain. And I had a really, um, challenging birth with her.

I had the flu during my labor and all of that sort of stuff. Oh God. What an awful experience. Yeah, she was like, she had to be, she was back to back and all of that. So, um, I then was quite keen when they said that she didn't have a tongue tie and we could get home and stuff. I was quite keen to sort of just get back and back to normality really.

So, yeah. 

And let, let's talk about her solids. So you mentioned you've touched on a few times that this was an issue for you. 

Yeah. 

I'm guessing like most people, you, you had a started around six months. 

Yeah, yeah, I did. Yeah. 

Tell 

[00:30:50] Emma Pickett: us about those very early experiences with solids. 

Yeah, so we started out with baby-led weaning.

Um, so we just sort of wanted to do that. I would offer sort of a, a mashed version of the food. Um, she, she was like, she was interested in it, in the sense of like, at the beginning it was okay, I think we did it for about a week, and then she got norovirus. So then we completely stopped and she was really ill actually, she had to go into hospital with that, um, because she wasn't, she was just throwing everything up.

Um, but anyway, we then went, got back into the solids. Um, I, I did the veg led approach. Um, it was the, uh, I can't remember her name, but it's like the SR nutrition one. Okay. Um, so sort of did the ette approach. Um, and she, she was like, you know, I would say like somewhat similar to some of my NCT group who I've got like a WhatsApp group with.

And we were sort of comparing and talking about it and stuff. But as we progressed, I just started to meet up with. Friends and stuff like that. And like their babies were just eating so much more than mine. And I always used to feel like she wasn't having enough basically. Can 

I just double check with you?

I'm a bit confused. 'cause you talked about 

Yeah. 

Baby lead and then you talked about mashing as well. 

Yeah. I would put the mash food next to like on, 'cause that, that I followed that SR nutrition book. Um, I put the mash food next to the solid version version, like Okay, got it. A, a finger food version. And then she could sort of, and I'd put a spoon there so she could sort of like, help herself with a spoon or, and sometimes I'd like try and encourage a little bit, but yeah, just didn't really, didn't really take off.

Sometimes she would just get like cry and just not wanna be anywhere near the food and she just wasn't, it was more about the, um, the, the volume of food, which I know food's for fun for the first year, but I think after the first year she just still wasn't like having any, it was basically the same as it was when she was six months old.

Okay. 

So you were doing, 

she was having just as much milk, 

the three meals a day. You'd move to three meals a day and 

Yeah. 

You are. Um, you know, for anyone who's listening, I'm sure you did all this stuff, but let's just talk through it. Yeah. So you are eating with her, you're modeling eating. 

Yeah. 

She's not sort, sitting in a highchair with you not having food anywhere near yourself.

No. No. 

And you are eating, let 

it get 

messy. Yeah. Letting her get messy. You are, you are not worrying about wiping her every time she gets something on her face. 

No. Yeah. 

There's no sense of, um, of you kind of forcing her to eat. I mean, you mentioned a little bit of encouragement. Yeah. But you're not kind of shoving spoons in her mouth, but yet she never really loved it in that first, in 

that first No, like, it was more like just fun and like, just like throwing food on the floor and then like, just playing with the food, but not really wanting to eat it as such.

Okay. And you, in her nappies, you could see that not much was, was going through? 

Oh, nothing. Like, you know, it was just a slight texture change, but. It was very much like a, a breastfed baby's nappy. Okay. Yeah. Def, very much so. 

And then you've got friends whose other little people as they get closer to 12 months are clearing plates.

And that's, and 

yeah, clearing plates and having solid poos as well. So, and when did you start to 

feel, oh, this doesn't feel comfortable. I'm a bit worried. When did that start to, in through, 

well obviously we had the tongue tie thing going as on as well, so I thought that might have had an impact. So when the, when we had that snipped then I didn't really see an improvement in her solid intake after that either, even though she was like dealing with the food better in terms of how she was, you know, moving it around her mouth.

Um, she wasn't really interested in, she just would rather breastfeed basically. And it got to, we had the nine to month, 12 month health visitor check. Um, and that basically, um, they asked about solids quite a lot during that, during that. And I sort of then mentioned that I was concerned about it. Then I think she was closer to the 12 month actually during that, um, visit.

They asked if I needed some extra support with it, et cetera. So I had another, another face to face with them. Um, and they just spoke to me about, you know, different sorts. And the lady I spoke to, the health visitor was really good. Um, and she basically said, um, 'cause I, I'd gone back and forth a little bit by 12 months where I actually started to think, okay, maybe if I spoonfeed her it, it'll be like, it'll be better.

I tried doing that and didn't really get anywhere with that to be honest. She just, I think it actually put her off even more. Okay. She was just a bit like, no, just leave me alone sort of thing. Yeah. So I mentioned that to health. She said, look, don't force it, just sort of go with the baby led weaning. So just give, put the food in front of her.

She can have it if she wants, et cetera. Just take the pressure off and, because she's probably picking up a little bit on your stress behind it all. So I gave, I gave that a shot and actually she started eating a bit more. So what she was eating, even though it wasn't, wasn't very much, she was eating quite a wide vari variety of food.

So she'd have like little bits of salmon like yogurt. She used to eat egg, like mashed, poached eggs. So she'd have little bits here and there. But in terms of the volume, again, breast milk was very much the main source of her nutrition. Can I just health pause for a second? Um, yeah. 

Um, so it is actually really refreshing to hear that the health visitor did not say anything about reducing breastfeeding.

Um, no. Which is really nice to hear. And I'm, you know, I'm not implying that health visitors, you know, always giving correct information or always around breastfeeding, 'cause that's obviously not the case at all. But health visitors around the country are huge, huge advocates for breastfeeding. But we do sometimes on this podcast, get the horror stories and the horror.

The horror version of this story is at, you know, 10, 11, 12 months. Someone says, you've got to stop breastfeeding her this much, Georgina, it's your fault that she's not eating solids and she needs more appetite. And it's, it's great. That wasn't the first thing someone said. 

Yeah. It wasn't the first thing.

It was sort of touched upon how much it was asked. How much are you feeding throughout the night? Do you want to reduce that? So it wasn't like, she wasn't trying to force it on me, but she did mention that it could potentially support with the intake of solids throughout the day. But I just wasn't anywhere near there when, when it came to night weed, I didn't want to night wean it or anything like that.

Uh, I wasn't really ready to do anything like that yet. 

Yeah, I mean it's, you know, just to save anyone was listening in this situation, we do not take milk away from children who are relying on milk for their intake. Yes. If a child is not eating solid food and relying on breast milk, it is dangerous to, to to end, to, to remove, to remove breast milk.

And, you know, night weaning a 12 month old is, is not necessarily gonna work anyway. 'cause lots of children will genuinely be needing milk overnight, even if they are fantastic solid eaters. Um, 

yeah. 

So there's a, there's a lot of complexity around this and I think as parents we're often very quick to blame ourselves and to feel a sense of guilt around that.

Did you, were you in a space of thinking, oh my goodness, this is my fault, or, or feeling guilt, or were you, or were you in a healthier space? 

Um, I don't think I, I don't think I blamed myself at any point. I don't think I blamed myself. No, I, I, I was quite confident that I'd done, I had done everything right.

I just didn't really know what was going on really. I was a little bit frustrated that, um, you know, none of the feeds had dropped or anything like that. I was feeling quite tired. I think I would've liked to have seen a bit of an improvement in her solid intake. But, um, yeah, that was just because I was comparing to other people and seeing how, you know, how they were doing and also pressure of like family and stuff as well.

You know, people would sort of comment on it quite a lot. Um, you know, she's not eating, anything's, not getting anything down her, uh, all of that. And I was like, so I think it was actually more the pressure from other people rather than how I felt about it. 

Okay. Did, did any of that pressure translate into kind of anti breastfeeding messaging?

Oh, definitely. A hundred percent. Yeah. I had a lot of that, yeah. From family members and, um, people just think that, you know, if you are feeding too many too, if you doing too many milk feed throughout the day, then it's, it means that. They're not gonna eat as many solids, not everyone, but perhaps the older generation sometimes.

Um, especially if they, if they bottle fed themselves. 'cause they like, think that it's the same as breastfeeding when it's really, it's really quite different. Yeah. 'cause you, you breast, you don't just breastfeed for, for the food side of things. It's also for um, for the connection and the comfort. Yeah. Et cetera.

Right. It can't, it can't be compared. 

Yep. Let's embroider that on a pillow. For sure. For sure. So let me take you back to 12 months. So we're two months past the tongue tie procedure. 

Yeah. 

Not a lot has changed in terms of how much she's eating. You've had a chat with the health visitors team about um, you know, taking the pressure off and not spoonfeeding quantities are still not huge.

I mean this is maybe an impossible question 'cause you might not remember, but what might a typical 24 hours be for her in terms of how much she ate? 

Before I came on this today, I thought I'd have a little look back at pictures 'cause of my memory's pretty rubbish when it comes to this sort of stuff.

But, um, just a quick thing to note, when we did go back to the health visitor, they weighed her and they said. What they actually said this to me, said, whatever you are doing is working. She was in the 98th percentile, so it had not had any impact on her weight or anything like that. Like she was thriving and she was doing really well.

And actually that continued for, until I got pregnant with Lucas as well. And then, you know, slowly she started. But in terms of the, the question you had around, um, what a typical 24 hours look like, um, very much like Lucas at the moment, really, um, like she's, she, but she wasn't eating anywhere near as much as he is now and he's only nine months old.

Um, she was very much, um, just sort of eating bits, so she'd have like maybe a bit of porridge for breakfast, but just ati, tiny amounts really. Um, and then, um, sometimes I'd give her sort of like, uh, those like little tots, which you, you know, like you can put lots of different hidden vegetables in them and it's just like, um, you can put them in the, in the oven and heat them up in the microwave if you freeze them, et cetera.

So that was quite handy. She liked to do it herself basically, but she would have breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I didn't bother with snacks 'cause I, she wasn't there. Her snack was breastfeeding. Yep. In terms of how much she was having, not very much at all. I would still persevere with it and I still continued and I, one thing I didn't do is I didn't ever offer her alternatives.

Um, which I think worked quite well because she eats quite a, like, good variety of food now and she, so it, it What about pointless about meat and protein? So you said she's having a bit of salmon? She's having a bit of egg. Salmon. Yeah, a little bit of, I'd sometimes give her like shredded bits of chicken, which she'd have, there was one meal that she'd always have actually, and I was actually, I was, I actually spooned her it, which she let me do.

It was chicken, potato and carrot, um, which I boiled and then I just like created like a little puree from it. And I would always put like a little bit of cheese in there as well. And she'd always have that. Even like, I obviously couldn't feed her every day, but it was always more like, oh, see why not?

Good, good range of things. Oh, probably good. Yeah. But like, maybe not every single meal, but yeah, she liked that so that was always good to know that she'd fall back on that. She liked broccoli so she'd had like little bits of broccoli. 

But quantity's still quite small and very much, very much relying on breast milk.

Actually looking back it's, it's okay 'cause she was still trying lots of different tastes and now she eats really well. She actually loves her food now and she eats a variety of different food and I think it wasn't pointless doing all of that. 'cause it obviously introduced her to, to different textures and flavors.

It sounds like you did a really good job of, of staying calm. And, and 

not panic. Yeah. Maybe I've seen like that now. I don't know. Well, you're 

definitely giving that vibe of being 

Yeah. Of 

being 

maybe 

pretty calm. Which, which is, you know, the ideal situation I think because the minute 

Yeah. 

Toddlers start to pick up on our anxiety around food.

Food becomes that, that emotional battleground. 

Yeah. 

Which, um, 

and my mom, my mom's been great actually. 'cause at the time she was like a bit, she was like, oh, she's not having very much. Like, she was quite stressed about it. Um, 'cause she loves her grandchildren a lot and she spends a lot of time with them.

And, um, she said, um, oh, you just, it shouldn't, you're not really getting much. And now she's like, goes back and says, I you did so well with, with AAmaya. I think you, you did a great job of like not offering alternative. She was like, it, like would really stress me out sitting and just like having to sit there for like an hour of an hour watching her just like, have the tiniest amount of food.

Um, but she was like, you stayed really calm. And so she kind of like. She went back on it and she's, I've actually had heard from other people, like friends and family who have said, oh, your mom says that you did a really, like, you did really great with a solid, like, can you tell us what you did? 'cause they wanna obviously do it as well.

So I think that's really nice actually. 'cause sometimes I think, you know, that's not always easy for a grandparents for sure. 

Gosh, that is absolutely true. 

Yeah. 

Especially this kind of Satanic baby led weaning. What are you, what are you doing? How are they gonna, they're gonna choke, they're gonna die. It's a dangerous, um, you know, culture.

But, but now we're getting to the point where baby led weaning, you know, people who are 50 did baby led weaning with their babies, so they're now the grandparents. So we, we are, we've, now we've got the new grandparent generation who were doing baby led weaning. You mentioned that you had some anti breastfeeding pressure.

I'm not asking you to necessarily name names. Um, so we don't go around with their house of pitchforks, but Yeah. Um, what was the most negative comment that you ever received or the most pressure that you ever received? 

It was actually with my son. When my son was born. He was about five weeks old and I was told, um, when are you gonna get him onto the bottle?

Um, you can't breastfeed if you've got a toddler to look after as well. And I was basically made to feel like I was actually like not being fair on my toddler because I was spending a lot of time feeding him, um, and made to feel that I had to quickly move him onto the bottle. It was very much like, that's just not the sort of the done thing.

Um, and I, and it was really hard 'cause I was like really struggled with him 'cause he had a tongue tie as well, which was actually treated, but only like, 'cause I went private with it actually, to be honest. But I had a lot of pain with breastfeeding and I was really, really struggling with like the guilt because I've obviously, I'd only stopped breastfeeding my daughter two months before and just like, not like, you know what it's like when you're breastfeeding, you are spending a lot of time in those early days, like with your child on you, they sleep on you.

Um, and you wanna be able to have them sleeping on you and doing the co. You know, you might not, but I certainly did. I wanted to, um. I wanted to do a lot of contact napping and things like that, and it's so hard not having your hands available for your toddler. 

Yeah. 

Um, and I felt so guilty anyway about that, so I felt, I almost like thought, oh, maybe she's right, you know, maybe I do need to get him onto the bottle.

But deep down I knew that wasn't the right thing. Yeah. So 

that comment 

came right 

when you were in that vulnerable space and, 

and really 

pressed the button that was already 

feeling a bit vulnerable? Yeah, it, it did. But I think a lot of, a lot of the time people just project, don't they? For sure. Like, they, they might have, because I'm, I'm almost certain that person didn't with their second, so I think they projected what they were feeling.

And, um, the other thing, the other comment I had was, um. Oh my God. He's feeding all the time. Like he's feeding all the time. Um, and I'm like, yeah, that's, that's what breasted babies. Yeah. That 

I'll do that one, isn't it? Yeah. What you said 

about projecting 

that, that is the heart of it, isn't it? So often what people did themselves, they need to see you do the same thing because that validates the decision that they made.

Absolutely. And if, and if you do not do the same thing on a very deep level, that feels like a personal criticism of their choice. So we've gotta do with all their baggage on top of how we are feeling as well. Um, 

yeah. As if it wasn't enough. 

Yeah. So you mentioned that you had these couple of interactions with, um, health professionals around AAmaya's solids, uh, and the last bit was, she's doing really well, she's thriving.

Her weight gain's great. Just keep doing what you're doing. Yeah. Did you get any more further professional help after that or did things just gradually turn around? 

Uh, things gradually turned around and actually she, 'cause I, I became more chilled out. I did see a slight increase in, in what she was eating.

And, um, and I just sort of took their advice of, you know, I, I know that she's. She's gaining weight. I actually sort of repeated that as well to some, like some of the members of my family and stuff that were like sort of worried about it. So I think that stopped the comments as well from family members.

Um, and yeah, just generally, I think she then started nursery when she was 14 months old, just three mornings a week. And they told me that she was eating really well there, but obviously she wasn't feeding 'cause she was away from me for like four and a half hours. But I dunno if that had an impact or not.

I think maybe just. She was like model, like she wore the, when you surround 

them with lots of other little 

people 

eating. Yeah. There's nothing more useful. I think we should have like an acting troop of toddlers that you can hire to come around to your house and um, I'm sure the labor law would be very complex and you probably wouldn't, unions wouldn't allow it.

But it is also, you need the same acting troop to help your toddler to, to nap at home as well without breastfeeding. 

Yeah, definitely. There's 10 little people 

lying down and 10 little people having lunch. Yeah. 

But also she went to a Montessori nursery as well and they're very much like child led. Um, they don't like try and they kind of follow that same approach as we were at home of don't force it and you know, she can have as much so or as little as she wants sort of thing.

So 

yeah. 

So yeah, I think, I think that helps, you know, um, just, although I hated sending her, I found that really hard, but yeah, that was more, I just, yeah, I almost was worried about the whole breastfeeding thing 'cause she was feeding so much. I was like, how's she gonna deal without being with me for that long?

She, she was fine 'cause my mom would then pick her up at one and then she'd be with my mom until about five. Okay. Sometimes I'd just like nip around to my mom's at like one 30 during my lunch break and give her a quick feed and my mom would be like, oh, she's fine. She doesn't need that. And I'd say like, no, but I actually need to relieve myself.

I need it. Yeah. And she does need that. Well, your 

milk milk production must have been pretty high levels. I mean, if she was a 98 centile it and you were, um, you know, feeding every hour through the night, you must have been pretty heavy production. So I'd imagine a whole working day without removing some milk would've been a bit intense anyway, so 

yeah, 

it was makes sense that you'd need to have that lunchtime feed.

And you said that when you got pregnant with Lucas, she was still feeding frequently through the night. She was still, 

yeah. Yeah. You 

felt that 

breast 

milk was still very much her majority nutritional intake? 

Well, not when he, no. So that, that's what changed. So although she was feeding just like quite a lot, um, obviously I, I did wean her around nine months in the night she started eating quite a bit more.

The thing is, I think she was only getting colos. She was because it, I think it had sort of, I don't know, you could correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it, it turned into, or not colostrum, but like a very different textured milk. 

Yeah, yeah. Sorry, I misunderstood something you said there. You said Unite Winter at nine months, did you say that?

Nine weeks. Nine weeks. So 

nine weeks pregnancy 

when I was nine. 

Got it, got it. I hang on, we'll happen there. Yeah. Okay. So 

the whole, the whole podcast just didn't make any 

sense. Yeah. So, so yeah, no, that makes sense. So basically colostrum normally arrives from Route Week 16, sometime between week 16, week 20.

Yeah. 

But when you are at the beginning of pregnancy and your volume drops significantly, you produce something that we call weaning milk. And is like colostrum, 

weaning 

milk. Yes. Um, so you've got higher concentration of immunological properties. You've got higher protein, but lower lactose levels, um, and potentially a bit salty as some little people say.

So, yeah, it would made, it would make sense that, um, you know, as your milk changed and the volume dropped, um, her relationship to food would've changed as well. That that would make sense. 

Yeah. And no, she wasn't at all bothered though by it. 'cause I thought maybe the salty taste or the difference in the taste would, would make a big difference.

Uh, some, some babies go off it, don't they? 

Yeah. Some, some were self weaned during pregnancy. That does happen and others won't blink. They'll just have milk co. She completely dries up, which happens to like slightly under 20%. They still won't blink. 

Yeah. 

So she was happy to go through. Yeah. And 

yeah. Yeah. I think it became a bit more painful for me because if there wasn't like much coming out, it all felt a bit like dry, if that makes sense.

No, that makes sense. A bit makes sense in her sucking pattern. Changed potentially as well. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. Okay. So then with Lucas, you mentioned that, um, he, he also had a tongue tie, but you'd got that resolved much more quickly. 

Yeah. 

So you haven't been in pain the whole time for you? 

No, 'cause I was in a lot of pain with him.

Yeah. Um. I just thought, you know, I'm not even gonna like, wait around this time. I, I know that what's going on here. And they, they did assess him. I had a health visitor come round. They assessed him and they've got this like, sort of threshold, I think he was sort of in the middle somewhere, so he wasn't like, quite bad enough to be referred to the tongue tie clinic, which I've heard.

Yeah, obviously they can resolve that quite quickly through the NHS now down here, which is great. But yeah, I just thought, I'm not gonna wait, I'm gonna go privately 

okay 

for it. So I went back to the same lady again. 

And when it was time for Lucas to start solids, did you have any kind of worries around that?

Did you feel any sense of anxiety of, uh, oh, here we go again. Or how did that go? 

Uh, yeah, I was, I was nervous actually. Yeah, I thought so. And, and actually the first day was awful. He like cried in his highchair just the first time and he was like. What is this? 'cause it was a bit of broccoli and he was just like, he hated the texture in his mouth.

And he is the opposite of AAmaya, where I've then sort of just 'cause if I'm a bit more time poor because I'm looking after her a lot as well. Um, obviously the two of them together, I mean I've actually done quite a lot of pureing and spoon feeding this time and he really likes that. But I've tried giving some solid food alongside that so that he can sort of help himself.

He's now going the other way where he is actually starting to like doing that more and he's doing a lot better with it. Whereas like initially he would sort of, um, do a lot of the gagging and like being sick because of he, it would like get stuck on the roof of his mouth or in his tongue and he just didn't like that feeling.

Now he's actually getting a lot better at it now that he's turned nine months. So. We're doing a lot more finger food now, which is good, but I'm sort of in between at the moment. But he loves food. He, he's eating a lot, like he's having breakfast, lunch at dinner and he's got solid, solid poos and, um, completely different actually.

Yeah. And I have noticed he's dropped, he's, his feeds have dropped a little bit, so he is not feeding as much in the day now. 'cause I guess he's filling up quite a lot on milk. Um, 

yeah, I mean it can obviously vary at different ages. It might be he goes through a phase and then comes back into milk again.

But, um, yeah, it's, it indicates how different two little people can be and, and no concerns randomized food. She's all guns blazing. 

She is now. Yeah. Yeah. She, she does really well with food. Yeah, she, um, yeah, absolutely fine. I wish I hadn't been so worried about it at the time. Really. Well you said that, but you did 

a 

[00:52:20] Emma Pickett: really good job of being not worried.

Yeah, yeah, I did. But I think, yes. Yeah, I think just, I don't, I just second guess myself a little bit. Like when people make comments, you could sort of think, oh. Maybe, you know, maybe they're right, you know, overthinking. No, 

I think, I think that's unusual. I think that's very 

natural 

that you would think that, and it's very difficult when, especially when it's family members and people you trust making comments.

It's really hard to kind of, I think obviously the fact is on the 98th centile, that must have been a huge relief. If that had been an extra complication, that would've been tricky. I'm just having a little look at this SR. Nutrition, which I've not heard of before, so I'm just Yeah. Having a little look at the website.

So it looks like it's, um, Charlotte, Sterling. Charlotte. Charlotte Sterling. 

That's 

it. Yeah, 

that's it. Yeah. 

So Charlotte, she's great. Sterling Reed baby and child nutritionist. Yeah. I'm literally sitting here talking to you while I'm looking at her website. Um, 

yeah, and I think what's good is, um, she doesn't just, um, she's really great at just not around that whole ideology of not putting the pressure on with children and, and not saying, you have to eat this.

So that you can then have this treat. It's almost like actually you can have the treat alongside your food and control your own appetite, uh, and that sort of thing. Okay. And she kind of creates that positive sort of, um, I dunno, like environment around, around, looks like she's been doing some stuff with Joe 

Wicks as well.

Yeah. And I think she's done quite a lot recently on, um, the whole, you know, like the pouches in the supermarket and the fact that they're really high sugar, uh, some of them and, and things like that. So she's been working 

okay 

quite closely on that project. 

Yeah, that's what we like to hear. Someone who's not 

Yes.

[00:53:54] Emma Pickett: Getting sucked into the products and the commercial side of things and as a little bit of, um, independence around that. That's what we want. That's the one, I'll be completely honest, that's one reason I was looking at our website. I was just double checking. We weren't talking about Charlotte Sterling Re and she was like, Charlotte, you read, sponsored by blah, blah, blah.

But she's, she's not, so we're good. So, um, she's done a little bit of collaboration with different companies, but we're not going to fault her for that necessarily. Yeah. See, her main thing is about being evidence-based. Um. 

Yes. Yeah. 

Brilliant. Well, we'll put, we'll put her website in the, in the show notes.

Um, any other resources that you particularly liked or, or found really helpful? 

I follow a, um, what's her name? Ma. She's a psychologist. Um, but I can't remember. I think she's, um, neuroscientist. Um, Dr. Gre sba. Um, I'm not sure if I've said that right. Okay. Let me have a way look at 

this is, uh, 

yeah, 

Greer sba.

Like, okay. I've got, I, I can 

see. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, 

okay. So your mental health for babies. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. Okay, cool. 

She's got a book called the, the, um, nurture Revolution, 

and 

[00:55:04] Emma Pickett: she's a doula as well. What, what, what was it about her that worked, that really connected with you? 

Well, she basically talks about baby's brain development, um, the positives behind nurturing your child and how, how great it actually is to.

To nurture them and the fact that they're actually still babies, um, until they're three. I think maybe even beyond that, um, and how the closeness between the mother and the baby and not just the mother, any caregiver, um, is so important for their brain development. And yeah, it's just very reassuring to sort of read that sort of thing.

You sort of think. I know I'm doing the right thing here. 

Yeah. Yeah. I can see, um, yeah, I've, I've been following her for a while and it says I'm slightly embarrassed, happy. I didn't even remember, realize I was, oops. That doesn't mean her content's not good. That just means I'm a bit of a dipstick. Um, yeah.

No, I, that's, uh, yeah, I mean, her stuff sounds like it's really, it's really child centered and, and really, really useful vibes. And then just one final thing before we stop talking. You are an infant feeding peer support volunteer. Yes. Tell, tell us about when you did the training for that and how that's been.

Yeah, I did the training for that during, um, so whilst Lucas was, once Lucas was born, um, it was every Monday. It was an eight week course. Um, and it was, uh, through, um, yeah, it was, it was through a company called LiveWell. They needed some volunteer, more volunteers for, um, some of the breastfeeding groups down here.

We've got a breastfeeding group in Plymouth called, um, Plymouth Latch on. So there's a few different groups throughout the, um, which you can just go to as every day. You can just go to it if you have any breastfeeding questions or even just feeding questions, you know, any, any feeding questions at all, breastfeeding or, or bottle feeding.

And they also wanted volunteers in the hospital. So, um, I, I signed myself up for that and I did my first sort of induction and shift last week. Um, and I'll be doing like weekly, two hourly slots at the, um, hospital, just supporting new mums with their breastfeeding journey, because I struggled myself as, as I mentioned throughout this.

Um, and I just wanna sort of give something back there as well. 

Brilliant. That's, that's a really, really valuable thing to do, I know from personal experience. So, so is Amaya still still going to nursery even though you're not working? 

Yeah, she goes, um, to preschool. Um, yeah, like on and off throughout, throughout the week.

But yeah, she really likes it there and it's in our village and we've got friends and stuff that live around here and, and stuff, so she goes with them and, um, she loves it. Yeah. So, yeah. And then is your mom hanging, is your mom hanging out with Lucas while you were at the hospital? Um, actually, um, I'm gonna be just doing it on the weekends, so, um, it'll be Joe looking after, um, looking after Lucas for the odd couple of hours here and there.

But yeah, the other day I left, I left and it was, it was a bit longer than I thought. It was about four hours and I thought, oh, when I came back, he cried when he saw me, so I think he, he had missed me. But yeah, I, Joe did give him some milk in, in a tummy tippy. He doesn't really like a bottle, but I dunno, he didn't really need it, you know, if he's a good eater, he 

can just eat, eat away if he 

needs to.

Exactly. 

And one other very nosy question, and you can tell me to get stuffed 

if you want. Yeah. 

Um, you mentioned that Josie, your fiance, does that mean you're planning a wedding? 

We've been engaged since 2020, so, no. So, 

no, I was just gonna ask about the logistics of planning a wedding while you're breastfeeding, but the 

message is No, I'd love to, no rush.

Okay, 

good. Yeah, I just wanted, I wanted to have, I'd prioritize having kids first. It was like lockdown and whatnot and I just thought, yeah, but I'd like to get, we would like to get married eventually. And I think it's just finding the time and, uh, yeah, the energy to, to sort of do that. But we will do it.

Yeah. 

Cool. 

Yeah, well when 

that 

[00:58:29] Emma Pickett: does happen. Congratulations. Although, congratulations on Oh, thanks very much. Everything else and your breastfeeding journeys and everything else. Thank you. And, and your peer support training as well. Thanks very much for sharing your stories today. I really appreciate it.

And, and very best of luck with the rest of your journey with Lucas. Do you have any sort of time frame? Obviously you breastfed de Amaya for, you know, more than two years. Is that what you're thinking will happen with Lucas? What, what are you thinking? 

Yeah, I'm not really sure. Um, I'm just gonna see how he gets on really.

'cause he's doing, as I said, he's doing quite well with the solids and stuff. But, um, we're still feeding throughout the night, so I'm sort of happy to, if he wants to like, sort of drop feeds throughout the day a little bit more. And then still happy to feed him in the night at the moment 'cause it's working and we, he sleeps well in between feeds, so I'm keen to do it as long as I can 'cause I know how good it's for them.

So, um, I kind of wanna give him the same. The same as I gave am Amaya. Really? But 

yeah, 

I don't plan to have another one anytime soon. So the only thing is like I don't have that end goal, so you might even be fed for longer knowing, knowing me, so who knows. Yeah. Well, good luck with everyth. Not, not a bad thing either way.

No, no, exactly. And good luck with where you 

decide. Thanks for sharing your story today. 

Thank you.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at 

Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes Milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed, because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.