Auden's story - a non-binary nursing journey

This week, I’m pleased to be joined by Auden Krauska, a non-binary parent of two originally from Wisconsin now living near Copenhagen, to talk about their nursing journeys and the complexities of lactation alongside gender dysphoria and healthcare systems. Auden describes binding, being misgendered, considering top surgery but delaying it to lactate, and stopping testosterone to conceive. Their first pregnancy involved hyperemesis, followed by a home birth, sidelying nursing, a newborn hospitalisation for enterovirus meningitis, and recurrent mastitis linked to oversupply and outdated advice, which improved with the Academy of Breastfeeding Medicine’s updated protocol and ibuprofen. Auden shares experience of parent-led weaning at 14 weeks pregnant, using a personalised storybook, and discusses nursing-friendly and pregnancy clothing, working remotely, Denmark’s health care, and evidence and monitoring around resuming testosterone while lactating. If Auden does return to taking testosterone, they will do blood testing to check their daughter’s liver function and hormone levels, and that decision is a way off.

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, by going to https://bit.ly/JKPbooks and using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

Find out more about Auden on their blog https://thepregnantpapa.wordpress.com/

Resources mentioned -

Where’s the Mother? - a book by Trevor MacDonald  https://www.queerlit.co.uk/products/wheres-the-mother?srsltid=AfmBOorXJK6ekxR3phw_y4N2NWXZ4vKNfrwshyJ9XpzXWTcom_fQCunf
Trevor’s Facebook group - Birthing and Breast or Chestfeeding Trans People and Allies https://www.facebook.com/share/g/183Qi5ryX9/

Angela Marchant in Madison, WI https://www.tallgrassosteopathy.com/

Trans Fertility Co https://transfertility.co/

Trystan Reese https://www.trystanreese.com/

Being You: A First Conversation About Gender – Early Pride Matters  https://earlypridematters.org/teaching-guide/being-you-a-first-conversation-about-gender/ 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, 

breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. 

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm gonna be talking to Auden Krauska, who is based in Denmark.

A parent of two originally from Wisconsin, we're gonna be talking about their feeding journey, feeding their two little people. This includes a parent led weaning journey for those of you who are interested in that story. And also they're currently feeding their six month old, soon to be a seven month old.

So we're gonna be talking about a feeding journey as a non-binary parent. We're gonna be talking about all the different complexities and all the different experiences that that brings. But obviously, Auden is not pretending to represent every non-binary person in the world. I don't need to say that.

Thank you very much for joining me today, Auden. I'm really honored that you've got time to share your story today. Tell me about how you ended up in Denmark. What's the story there? 

[00:01:33] Auden: Yeah, uh, my partner is, is from Denmark. Um, so we moved back to his hometown, uh, just this past September. 

[00:01:40] Emma Pickett: Did you meet in the States or did you meet in when Denmark?

I don't mean to ask you about your private love life, but I'm always curious about how people end up in different countries. 

[00:01:48] Auden: No, absolutely. Um, yeah, I studied abroad in Denmark, uh, back in 2015. Um, and, uh, we, we've, uh, kept in touch and, and been together pretty much since. 

[00:01:59] Emma Pickett: Cool. And did you have your, did you give birth in in Denmark?

You went through the Denmark, the Danish birth system with both of them? 

[00:02:08] Auden: I didn't, no. Actually, uh, both of them were, were born, uh, in the us Um, so we decided actually to, let's see, that we, we gotta take a, a step back, I guess. Um, uh, so during the, the COVID lockdown, I think I was at one of the minority of people that actually, um, it was really good for my mental health to just spend time with the people that were closest to me, um, and not really have to be out and about with, with strangers.

Um, and really realizing how much misgendering was affecting my everyday life. Um, and so at that point then I had decided that I, I needed to start. Making more concrete changes in, in order to, to help myself feel more comfortable in society, uh, in like the beginning of 2021, when we were all really hopeful about the vaccine and, and how much that would mean society returning back to normal.

[00:02:59] Emma Pickett: So you're in Wisconsin at this time, are you? 

[00:03:01] Auden: Yep. I'm, I'm in Wisconsin. 

[00:03:03] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And, and you are identifying as non-binary at this stage in your life? How old are you at this point? 

[00:03:08] Auden: Yeah. Um, let's see. I am, uh, 26 years old. 

[00:03:12] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:03:13] Auden: Uh, I've been out as non-binary, uh, in the, in the vast majority of, uh, my life now for, for four years.

And I've been taking testosterone for two years at that point. 

[00:03:25] Emma Pickett: Okay. And I'm asking lots of personal questions and we've agreed that you'll tell me if, if this feels like I'm stepping over any lines, but I think for people who listen to this, who may not have an experience of what it's like to live as a non-binary person.

It's a great gift that you're giving here, being a, from being able to ask these questions. So when you say you were being misgendered, you mean that people were assuming you were a binary gender that didn't feel right and you needed to therefore go down a medical hormonal route that you weren't currently in that to able to, to sort of confirm how you felt.

Is that a way of describing it? 

[00:04:00] Auden: Yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm. Um, and, and specifically thinking a lot more about top surgery. Um, so like a, the medical term would be a double mastectomy. There are slight differences between a double mastectomy, uh, in, in terms of, uh, gender affirming care and, and the kinds that you might get for breast cancer.

Uh, they don't take quite as much out, uh, for gender affirming care. 'cause they don't want it to kinda dip in into your chest. So they leave a little bit. 

[00:04:24] Emma Pickett: So you're binding at this point when? When, correct. Before, even before the pandemic and 

[00:04:31] Auden: mm-hmm. 

[00:04:32] Emma Pickett: Tell us a bit about binding. Is that, um. That's a specially made product that you, you're using that is presumably elasticated.

How did that work for you? How did you find that experience? 

[00:04:43] Auden: Yeah. Um, the kind that I have is essentially like a, a really tight sports bra. Um, so it kind of just molds your chest to, to make it more of a, a masculine, uh, form. I generally found that to be a, a, a good experience. It is a little restrictive, um, in, in terms of, uh, you know, if you're, uh, late, uh, for the bus and, and trying to run after it, the, you're, you'll, you'll feel your rib cage, um, going up, up against the binder and, and, and that kind of restrictive thing.

So you don't wanna exercise in it. You don't wanna sleep in it. For me, it was just kind of a part of my normal outfit. Uh, and, and that was fine, but I, I realized the, the weight of, of how much, how difficult that, that actually was during COVID when all of a sudden, uh, everything is on a screen, uh, from the shoulders up and I didn't have to bind.

Um. And also realized that I had had some, some nerve damage from binding, uh, in terms that I, I didn't have very much sensation on my chest. 

[00:05:42] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:05:43] Auden: Yeah. 

[00:05:44] Emma Pickett: So during COVID you had that feeling of freedom and you felt you were able to be yourself without having that kind of society's goldfish bull bulk.

Mm-hmm. Wanna get bull from goldfish bowl kind of perspective on you, and you realized you needed to confirm a bit more who you were to help you with that kind of societal view. So did that mean, you said, exploring the possibility of top surgery? Um, is that something you went ahead with? 

[00:06:09] Auden: No. Um, I, the, uh, the, the reason then that we decided to have children is then, um, was because I knew that I, I wanted to be able to lactate.

Um, and your ability to lactate after top surgery is, uh, there are certainly people that have done it. Um, but it, uh, the, the chance of you having a full supply, um, is, is pretty low. Um, so at that point, um. We decided we'll, we'll go ahead and, and have children, uh, and then that phase of life will be over and, and I can have top surgery sooner.

[00:06:40] Emma Pickett: Okay, so you're obviously in the middle of that parenting journey right now. Um, busy, busy lactating for number two, and, and you've got top surgery in your mind as a goal. Eventually once, once your lactation journey's finished. And I wonder how it feels to make decisions thinking about something. YI mean, you're putting it off for years.

Presumably you didn't know you're necessarily gonna have two children. You didn't necessarily know how long your lactation journeys would be. You have to think ahead, don't you, when you're thinking about major surgeries and, and life changing decisions. There's a, there's a lot of planning. This stuff doesn't happen accidentally.

Before we talk a bit more about your parenting, can I to ask you about the very beginning of when you started to feel that you weren't a binary gender? When did those feelings first happen for you? 

[00:07:26] Auden: Hmm. I, I think as a child I had a lot of confusion around, um. Gender and, and how other people kind of felt so, so sure in their gender.

Um, and my parents were rather open to me doing what I wanted to do. You know, I, I went to robotics clubs with, with all the boys and, um, did all, all sorts of those kinds of nerdy things. And I, they, they let me cut my hair short, um, to like a, a boy's cut in second grade. Uh, but it actually ended up being a lot of those experiences of having short hair, um, and people assuming that I was a boy that.

Ended up kind of making me go in the opposite direction for, for my teenage years and, and trying to be super feminine because it would be things like, you know, the attendance sheet. Um, I have a girl's name on here, where's the girl? I guess she's not here. Um, and, and then I would have to raise my hand and be like, no, that's, that's me.

Uh, and, and just feeling really called out, uh, on not, uh, performing girlhood in, in, in the way that that adults were expecting me to. Um, and so then going to college and, and spending more time, you know, being an, an adult with a, a, a wider variety of people, uh, that's when it kind of came back to actually all of this feels really uncomfortable, um, for me.

And, uh, I, I felt like people were relating to the. Like I had, I had friendships that were, that I was kind of somehow at an arms distance with and that they were friends with the, the person that I had created and not actually me. Okay. Um, and, and so I wanted to start being more authentic and, and letting people into to who I actually was and not this kind of person that I was performing.

[00:09:13] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And it's great to hear that you had the support of your parents. When I hear the name The Miss Wisconsin as a state, I don't think of that as being particularly progressive. I don't, which is a terrible thing to say. I mean, obviously I'm, you know, I've never even been, been there. How dare I'm getting that from movies and TV programs.

Um, but it's just important to remember that, you know, America is a, a diverse place with lots of different kinds of people living in all of different kinds of places. Um, where did you go to college? 

[00:09:41] Auden: Uh, university of Wisconsin Madison. Okay. Um, so Madison is, um, kind of a, a blue little circle in a, in a sea of red.

Um, so it's a much more open, um, and, and a really beautiful, wonderful city. 

[00:09:52] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for talking at Wisconsin and making sure I had my prejudices are being challenged. How old were you when you, when you started taking testosterone? 

[00:10:00] Auden: Um, let's see. I was, uh, 23, uh, when I started taking testosterone.

[00:10:05] Emma Pickett: Okay. And what sort of changes did that bring for you? What, what are the changes that felt really positive that you remember sort of feeling really good about? 

[00:10:12] Auden: Hmm. Um. Yeah. Uh, my, my voice went a couple octaves, uh, down. Um, I, I'm not sure if that comes across all that well in a podcast 'cause I'm, I'm trying to be friendly, so that automatically brings my voice up.

[00:10:25] Emma Pickett: You, you have a 

[00:10:25] Auden: deeper voice than a little bit 

[00:10:26] Emma Pickett: than 

[00:10:26] Auden: most 

[00:10:27] Emma Pickett: people I speak to on the podcast order for sure. Mm-hmm. You don't need me to affirm that, but you do. 

[00:10:31] Auden: Mm-hmm. Um, and then there's, uh, some things that are a little bit more, um, vague to describe, but just the, the way that, uh, fat redistributes. Um, so my face, um, became a little bit more masculine.

Um, you get a little bit more muscle mass, so your shoulders broaden. Uh, just those kinds of, um, subtle changes that, that people, uh, tended to pick up on, um, as a little bit more masculine coated. 

[00:10:56] Emma Pickett: Okay. And then you started thinking about having a family. How old were you when you said, well, okay, we're gonna try for a, for a baby.

That's the plan. 

[00:11:04] Auden: Uh, 26. 

[00:11:05] Emma Pickett: Okay. Oh gosh. Mm-hmm. Okay. So, so early days in, in the process of, of, of thinking about where you're gonna be medically and you knew breastfeeding was important, or chest feeding was important. Let's talk about vocabulary. First of all, do you say chest feeding? What's the words that you use?

[00:11:19] Auden: So, I actually, uh, have always preferred the word nursing. Okay. Uh, back when IB before I had children, I preferred the word nursing. Um, just because the chest feeding kind of, I don't know, feels a little bit clunky still to me. Okay. Maybe that's my own internalized, uh, um, trans misogyny that I, I should work on.

Um. And, uh, breastfeeding to me feels like a very medical word. Uh, I'm, I'm fine using it. I imagine that there are probably some trans and non-binary people who might wanna listen to this podcast, um, that don't feel that way, um, that, that feel like it is gendered. But I, I, I don't have an issue, uh, with the, the word breastfeeding personally.

Um, but now actually having lactated for, I guess a total of a little over, over three years. I actually really prefer the word nursing because I, I don't think that it's all about feeding. 

[00:12:08] Emma Pickett: Yeah, totally. Right. That's, I, I wrote a little article about that, that was once in a very obscure magazine about anything that has the word feeding in.

It misses the point, especially when you're going beyond 12 months. Yeah. It's so much about emotional connection, isn't it? And nursing can conveys that. 'cause actually nursing is about care, isn't it? We think of nursing as being a very North American term in Europe, so it's not a term that, that Brits tend to use.

But actually it, thank you for reminding us actually that anything with feeding tact on the end is quite restrictive in, in how it describes the relationship between parent and child. Did you have a big family culture of nursing? Was it something that you always knew was important to you? Where, where did those feelings come from?

[00:12:47] Auden: Nursing was really important, uh, to my mom. Uh, she nursed me until I was nine months old. Um, and very much feels very proud of that. Um, she worked for the CDC for a short time and, uh, didn't worked on some kind of breastfeeding education, uh, kinds of things. Oh, wow. Okay. Uh, but the, the Centers for Disease Control, uh, but I think actually the, the bigger kind of role model, uh, in, in our lives was, uh, my mother-in-law.

Uh, nursed my husband for, um, until he was two. And, uh, she had a, a, a really difficult birth story, both with my husband's older brother and, uh, with my husband. With both of them. She had, uh, c-sections under general anesthesia and didn't wake up, uh, until they, they were two days old, uh, both 

[00:13:33] Emma Pickett: times. Oh, wow.

Okay. But she had a real reaction to the anesthesia then. That's, that's rough. But 

[00:13:38] Auden: yeah. 

[00:13:38] Emma Pickett: But actually good to hear that despite that you can come out the other side and have a really positive, um, feeding experience. 

[00:13:44] Auden: Absolutely. Yeah. And then also the way that it just, um, having that, that story. And my mind in the background was also a really peace of mind for those kind of first days before you actually really see the milk come in.

That like my husband didn't have literally anything. They didn't give him formula, uh, for two days either. Wow. He Oh wow. Just didn't have anything at all. Um, and you know, still ditches fine. 

[00:14:09] Emma Pickett: He's just unloaded the dishwashers, so we know, we know he is. Okay. Um, 

[00:14:12] Auden: yeah. 

[00:14:13] Emma Pickett: Um, okay. So, okay. Quick, quick question.

When you were thinking about starting your family and obviously your mother-in-law and, and your mother knew that you were non-binary, did you have any conversations when anyone went, oh my gosh, goodness, you're not gonna have top surgery. Are you, are you gonna be not breastfeeding? Or, how does the testosterone work with, with lactating?

Did you have to deal with any family fears around that or was everyone so well educated and on board that that was never a concern? 

[00:14:42] Auden: Um, that's a great question. Let me think back. Um. 

[00:14:45] Emma Pickett: I'm just thinking two, two women for whom breastfeeding was so significant. I just wondered whether that any of that baggage put extra pressure on you, or you had to kind of spend time alleviating their worries or that wasn't a concern?

[00:14:58] Auden: Um, I, I think on my in-laws side, um, their concern was, uh, more, um, with the, the lack of American parental leave. Um, and like how in the world are you going to breastfeed when, uh, when you don't have many parental leave? Um, I don't remember them having concerns about testosterone at all. I think my dad felt that that, um, this kind of crazy phase, uh, that I was in was over.

Um, and that I've like somehow stopped being non-binary by interesting stopping taking testosterone. Okay. 

[00:15:32] Emma Pickett: So you mentioned there stopping, taking testosterone. Let's talk a little bit more about that. Mm-hmm. For who doesn't know. So when you're going to get pregnant and you're taking testosterone and testosterone.

Presumably feels very significant because it's helping you be the person you want to be. How does it feel to make the decision to stop it and, and, uh, pre obviously you've done your research. Does everybody need to stop it? You can't get pregnant while taking testosterone. You can't lactate. 

[00:15:58] Auden: So there haven't been any randomized controlled trials on the subject.

Of course, there, there, there aren't enough, um, transmasculine people to, to possibly do this. Um, but the best evidence is that, um, it, it's toxic for embryos. Um, however, there also haven't been any reported cases of people who have had issues, um, if they have been taking testosterone, um, and then find out that they're pregnant, um, and then stop taking testosterone in order to, to continue carrying on the pregnancy.

Um, so it really is, um, a gray area, but it's very, very strongly advised that, that you stop immediately. Putting on my, uh, my hat as a statistician who studies medical research, um, I, I do wonder if it probably causes miscarriage. Uh, and that's why we might not see all that many people who both are taking testosterone and then also have, uh, successful, healthy pregnancies.

[00:16:52] Emma Pickett: Okay. There's somebody snoring. Do you have a lovely dog snoring nearby? 

I 

[00:16:57] Emma Pickett: do. That's okay. I love a dog. Isn't there s if anything that microphone's gonna pick up anything? I salute a snoring dog. Um, let me just ask you a bit more about your, your decision to stop taking testosterone. H how did that feel?

Did that feel celebratory because you knew pregnancy was on the cards and you were gonna be growing your family? Or were there any moments of feeling, this is a bit scary, I'm, I'm worried I'm gonna lose myself here. How, how did that decision feel? 

[00:17:24] Auden: After being on testosterone for two years, um, a a lot of the changes don't really revert, um, like, especially the, any like vocal cord changes that that's not gonna go back.

Uh, and, and I also knew that it would take a long time, it would take many months, uh, for the changes that I, in, in terms of body shape, um, for, for those to, to revert back. Uh, and so the actual stopping testosterone, I, I, I wasn't so nervous about as much as the physical changes with pregnancy, um, because I, I knew with that, um, the, there aren't, uh, any pregnant men in society, right?

And, and so that, that would immediately, uh, gender me. 

[00:18:04] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. So obviously chest tissue growing. Um, you know, and, and rounding and hip widening and distributing mm-hmm. All the things that, that we associate with pregnancy, I can imagine feel tough at the same time that presumably you're also feeling really positive about being a parent.

I dunno how it feels to have those two things in your brain at the same time. Did you, did you struggle with any really low mood? How, how did you manage in those, in those months when your body was changing? 

[00:18:32] Auden: Oh gosh. Um, I actually ended up having a hyperemesis GraBar, um, oh no. And so I don't think I really spent, you 

[00:18:39] Emma Pickett: weren't thinking about that.

You had other things to worry about. Oh no. I'm so sorry. 

[00:18:42] Auden: Yeah. Um, so I don't think I really had a much time to think, um, I, I was focusing just on, on not vomiting. Um, 

[00:18:50] Emma Pickett: okay. Yeah. Okay. That sounds rough. I mean, did you end up being hospitalized? How, how did, how did that treatment go? 

[00:18:57] Auden: Um, I, I did have a number of ER visits, um, but they ended up setting me up for, uh, uh, in IV infusions every third day.

Um, and, and so it was, you know, quite, um, quite the task to leave the house, um, when I was feeling so low. You know, I, I naturally am a person that already has really low blood pressure and then being dehydrated with, with low blood blood pressure. Um, you know, as soon as I would get there, the machines would start beeping that my blood, blood pressure is too low.

And, um, they often had to put in IVs with an, with ultrasound. Um, 'cause my veins were good contra veins. Hard enough. 

[00:19:32] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yikes. That sounds really ruffled and I'm so sorry. What was the care like when you were having your, um, parental care at that point was, how was it going in terms of, um, you know, misgendering, what was the care like and what, where were you living at this moment?

You were still in Madison, or you were 

[00:19:49] Auden: so Yeah, I was still in Madison, Wisconsin. Yep. Um, yeah, so I had, uh, before I got pregnant, I had researched, um, home birth midwives in the area and had in found, um, a really lovely affirming midwife. Um, and then unfortunately then when I had hyperemesis, and that's out of the scope of a, a, a midwife's care.

So I did, um, then get in contact, um, with an ob, uh, who then was able to set me up for the, um, the every third day IV infusions. 

[00:20:26] Emma Pickett: You are meeting a lot of staff, every time you go in, there's a new set of staff, so you're having to constantly correct pronouns the whole time. I mean, I guess as you say, if you're busy vomiting, maybe you're not even having conversations with people, but how did those, how did all those visits go?

[00:20:41] Auden: Yeah, um, well the nice part was, you know, every third day you kind of get to know the people. Um, and there were some staff members that were a lot better, um, at, at getting it on the first try than others. So I also started learning their names and, um, getting, getting to know them a lot better. Uh, and then I also, you know, lost quite a bit of weight, especially in the first, uh, trimester.

Um, so it was also kind of exciting. I, I think for both of us with, uh, you know, I'd get weighed at each appointment and so then we could kind of get excited about that together. Um, that I finally started gaining weight and started showing a little bit. Yeah. And I, I stopped getting IVs when I was 15 weeks pregnant.

Okay. So it was just starting to show at the very end. 

[00:21:23] Emma Pickett: Okay. And, and you had a home birth with one of the midwives that you were connecting with. 

[00:21:27] Auden: I did. 

[00:21:27] Emma Pickett: Tell us about your, your child's birth and, and those early breastfeeding moments, feeding moment, nursing moments. 

[00:21:32] Auden: Yeah. Um, yeah, it was a, a really great home birth experience, uh, with, with two really great affirming midwives.

Um, I felt so loved and, and cared for, uh, by them. Um, both, uh, both of my kids were born exactly at 41 weeks. Um, so a week passed, uh, my due date. And let's see, for my, my first daughter, um, uh, the placenta took a little bit longer than, than usual, uh, to come. Um, and so I had to put a little bit more energy in, into focusing on, on delivering the placenta.

Um, but then as soon as that was all over with, um, then she just started, uh, nursing right away. And, uh, she preferred very strongly, uh, for the, the first number of months, um, to only sideline nurse. Uh, which I think was really great in, in terms of getting a lot of sleep. Um, but it was, uh, a little bit more awkward being in public.

[00:22:31] Emma Pickett: Yeah. How does that work? Oh, were you literally sideline in the park and, and doing sort of out about feeds? Mm-hmm. Kind of on grass looking for a spot in the parking lot? I mean, 

[00:22:40] Auden: that, that's literally literal exactly what we did. What's 

[00:22:42] Emma Pickett: happening? 

[00:22:42] Auden: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. We brought a blanket in the diaper bag to be able to lay down anywhere.

Um, you know, even the doctor's office, uh Oh, 

[00:22:50] Emma Pickett: good for 

[00:22:50] Auden: you. Laid down. Yeah. 

[00:22:52] Emma Pickett: So you weren't bothered about that. You didn't kind of feel enormous pressure to try and find other positions. It, it worked. That's, that's what worked for you. Obviously at home it's not remotely a problem. You mentioned, um, when we first got in touch that, um, somebody had meningitis.

Was that your eldest? 

[00:23:06] Auden: Yeah, that was my eldest, yeah. She had, uh, she kept meningitis from enterovirus. Um, so not quite as scary as the, you know, meningococcal meningitis. Uh, but she was only three weeks old. 

[00:23:18] Emma Pickett: Oh, Auden, that's, that is very scary. I don't care what kind of meningitis it is. That is very, very scary at such a young age.

How did that kind of present itself and, and they went back to hospital? 

[00:23:28] Auden: Yeah. Um, so, uh, she was, uh, just shy of, of three weeks old. Um, and she just felt really warm and so it took her temperature and it was a hundred degrees Fahrenheit. So let's say that's, uh, 37.8, uh, Celsius. So just, just shy of a fever.

Um, and so we, uh, called the midwife right away and she recommended just, you know, try to nurse a lot and, and, and keep track of it. Uh, and then kind of through the course of the evening, she started getting a little bit more fussy. Um, and then our thermometer just started giving us a, a really wide range of results.

Every, like, it would beep and say that she was, um, like 94 degrees, so like hypothermic and then, um, you know, a 103. And we were just getting these like, I, all right, we need a different thermometer. And so we asked a bunch of neighbors for thermometers, and then all of a sudden we had five different thermometers and seven different results.

Um, and so it was like, all right, let's just go to the er. They'll probably tell us to buy a new thermometer and that we're, you know, first time parents who, who don't know anything and send us home. So better to do that at 11:00 PM at night than at, you know, through later. 

[00:24:36] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:24:37] Auden: In the early hours. Um, so we got to the, the hospital, um, and they put us right into triage immediately.

Uh, and her temperature was, uh, 102.9. Um, so a pretty, yeah. Scary fever for a, 

[00:24:51] Emma Pickett: yeah, 

[00:24:52] Auden: a tiny infant. 

[00:24:53] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That is scary. How long was she in hospital for? 

[00:24:56] Auden: Um, let's see, that was, uh, uh, four days, uh, three nights. Um, and then at that, um, I think the part in the ER was a, a little bit more kind of fast paced. 'cause then all of a sudden they wanted to do a spinal tap and, you know, uh, bladder cultures and, and all of those things.

Um, but then in the actual, uh, children's hospital, um, she really was just there for observation. I think the, the real bummer of it was that because we had decided to go to the hospital, uh, and she finally got admitted just after midnight, then she was exactly three weeks old. Which meant that she was too old to go to the nicu.

She had to go to the children's hospital. Oh 

[00:25:37] Emma Pickett: golly. Okay. 

[00:25:39] Auden: Um, where the, the pediatricians, I, I think just really didn't have a whole lot of trust of breastfeeding. Um, and the midwife association in Madison has a really great relationship with the nicu. Um, but I don't think the pediatricians had any of that connection.

Okay. And so I, I think they, and I think we walked in and they were like, there's no medical record for this baby. Who are these irresponsible parents that have decided to have, um, a, a home birth and, and didn't really understand that actually we had, um, a, a very qualified um. A certified nurse midwife present.

[00:26:14] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I'm sorry you experienced that. Gosh, that's a matter of hours. That's such bad luck, isn't it? Um, and, and as a nursing parent, were you allowed to stay with her and sleep in the same room and that was all. Okay. There was no pressure to kind of go back or any come for visiting hours or anything? She's so little.

Sometimes with children, hospitals, there are weird rules around nursing parents. But that was all okay. Was it? 

[00:26:35] Auden: Yeah. Um, in, in terms of policies, um, I, I think it was totally fine. They, uh. They let me stay. And then also, this was still kind of in COVID restriction era. Um, and so they had a rule of only one support person.

Um, which if I hadn't been nursing, that would've been, you have to pick one parent. Um, but they had an exception that the nursing parent doesn't count, uh, in that quota. 

[00:27:00] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:27:01] Auden: Um, so both, uh, my partner and I were able to, to be in the hospital, uh, with her. Um, they of course were very anti co-sleeping, um, which we had been co-sleeping up until that point.

So, um, trying to figure out how to, um, how to put her, uh, in a crib at just, um, especially when she was so sick, uh, just kind of felt really impossible. Um, so they gave us, uh, an enormous crib, um, that I could kind of side, side lay nurse Okay. In the crib and then roll away. So that's what we did there. I, I think the real issue was that, um.

They didn't, uh, want me to, to directly nurse because they wanted me, they wanted to be able to measure how many, um, uh, milliliters or ounces she was getting. Um, so they wanted me to exclusively pump and bottle feed, but having, uh, a baby who was so sick, and I, I, I really do think that, um, the, the spinal tap was still bothering her at that point, um, that she, she seemed to be in pain, especially if you put her on her back, which of course didn't help with the crib slipping situation.

[00:28:09] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:28:10] Auden: Um, so I, I just directly nursed her and I also pumped as much as they wanted me to pump, um, which I think at three weeks postpartum, uh, then my body just was able to do. 

[00:28:21] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:28:21] Auden: Uh, so I, uh, I, I started, um, expressing 600 milliliters, uh, uh, every day. And then also. Not feeding her any of that. I was just directly nursing and she, 

[00:28:34] Emma Pickett: golly.

Okay. So your supply was obviously doing very well at that point. So, so obviously you've got the whole, whole challenge of dealing with her not being well, but it doesn't sound like your milk supply was a concern and, and when she was actually latching on that felt comfortable, that was all Okay. You didn't have any kind of positioning issues apart from the needing to lie down the whole time.

So no other particular nursing issues, but you did get mastitis, you, you mentioned. Tell me a bit about that journey. 

[00:29:00] Auden: Yeah. Um, so then after we left the hospital, then, um, I, I wanted to stop pumping, um, but stopping pumping when you have so much milk Yeah. At, at that point really was just, um, uh, uh, quite the battle.

And I, I, I think I didn't really know how to stop either. Um, I think the advice that I had read was to just pump a little bit. Uh, but also I, I think I, I'm just someone who has a really fast let down. Um, and if I pumped for just a, a couple minutes, I would get, uh, five or six ounces. 

[00:29:34] Emma Pickett: Wow. Okay. So pumping for less and less time doesn't really isn't great advice if, you know, the second you get a let down, it's all there.

Yeah, that is, that is rough. So you didn't have an I-B-C-L-C working with you or anything? You were just trying to figure it out by yourself. 

[00:29:46] Auden: Um, so my midwife, uh, was an I-B-C-L-C, uh, and, and was still, uh, helping, uh, to, to some extent. Um, but I, I think I just didn't ask, um, or, or I, I don't think that I realized at the time how much I, like, I, I was just kind of in the struggle, I think.

Okay. Um, and, and didn't realize that I, I could have asked for help. Um, and that. She would've been a, a really fantastic person to ask for help and, and would've come with really good advice. Of course, this is the old understanding of the mastitis protocol, uh, or of, of mastitis again, too. So it was every time I started getting a, a lump or mastitis, the advice was to pump more.

And so I got really stuck in this rock and hard place of, uh, pumping more to 

[00:30:35] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Thank you for, for mentioning that. For anyone who doesn't know, the thinking around mastitis has shifted maybe three, three years ago, something like that. Um mm-hmm. It used to be heat and vigorous massage and, and, you know, electric toothbrushes and all this kind of, you know, attacking the inflammation, which now we think about it just, just sounds absolutely bananas.

And, and now it's cool and cold compresses and, you know, no firmer than stroking a cat. And, and you know, we're not massaging away in inflammation no more than we would in any other part of our body. And the relationship between overproduction and mastitis, we're thinking about a lot more. So, as you say, extra pumping to take away the bad milk in invert as it really doesn't make sense if you're gonna be stimulating production even more.

So you were in a bit of a pickle it sounds. So you were kind of trying 

[00:31:21] Auden: and, and I think I just kept getting it worse 'cause I would ask a little for a little bit of advice on, on how to deal with the mastitis and oversupply and I was, you know, really getting my knuckles into uh, like get the, get the clog out in, in terms of what the old thinking was.

Um, and, and pumping for only a couple of minutes many times a day. 

[00:31:41] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:31:42] Auden: Um, so somehow like ramping up my production 

[00:31:44] Emma Pickett: at the 

[00:31:45] Auden: same time that I'm trying to 

[00:31:46] Emma Pickett: scale it back. So all those prolactin surges happening and Yeah. I mean we, we used to literally think, I mean, when I first started in this game, it was, there is a blockage in your milk duct, like a little kind of ball of fatty milk.

Mm-hmm. Somehow. And we've just gotta heat it up and then it'll move more easily and we've got to push behind it and it'll slide out. It's so interesting how the world of, of lactation changes and all the science changes. I mean even the configuration of what the chest looks like. And we used to think there were these sinuses, you know, behind the nipple.

And we know now that that only existed 'cause people were injecting wax into cadavers. I mean, it's just a bizarre world, but Yeah. But in fact, that lump is just inflammation and you're not gonna shift it by pushing on it. I mean, if you're just gonna cause more damage to delicate tissue. Um, so it sounds like you were really battling, I mean, were you taking antibiotics on and off through, through this period as well?

[00:32:33] Auden: I wasn't, no. Um, 'cause it, the fever always, um, managed to, to cut, uh, right before that 24 or mark. Um Okay. Which is when my midwife said that I should reach out for antibiotics. Um, up until the. Fifth time that I got mastitis. And at that point she was, I was September, so she would've been, uh, just shy of, of four months old.

Whoa. 

[00:32:56] Emma Pickett: Five, lots of mastitis in a couple of months. That's, that's a rough word. And I'm so sorry. 

[00:33:02] Auden: Yeah. 

[00:33:02] Emma Pickett: And then it ended, you, you did something, you managed to do something. How did that, how did the shift happen in the end? But, 

[00:33:07] Auden: yeah. Well, my fever was so bad. I, I just felt delirious and just really unsafe. Um, and, and not able to take care of my daughter.

And my husband was traveling for a wedding, and, and so I, I went and got antibiotics and I said, I, I gotta do something different. Um, I, on Monday I'm going to go to the doctor and ask for some miraculous medication that's gonna stop the, the, the milk entirely. 

[00:33:35] Emma Pickett: You were thinking of ending? 

[00:33:36] Auden: I, I think I had some magical ending.

And your nursing 

[00:33:37] Emma Pickett: journey completely. Is that where you were? Yeah. Gosh. You were in a desperate place. Yeah. Okay. 

[00:33:41] Auden: And that's exactly when the um, academy of Breastfeeding Medicine published their new mastitis protocol. 

[00:33:46] Emma Pickett: Oh wow. Okay. 

[00:33:47] Auden: Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:48] Emma Pickett: That's amazing, isn't it? What a coincidence. 

[00:33:50] Auden: Yeah. 

[00:33:51] Emma Pickett: And obviously you're in the medical world, so you were paying attention to the new announcements and things in a way, perhaps another parent might not be.

So that landed and you noticed it. Mm-hmm. And you just shifted completely what you've been doing. 

[00:34:01] Auden: Yeah. Um, especially 'cause I'm also someone that doesn't really. I like to take medication. Um, and so every time I get mastitis, I was definitely not going for ibuprofen or Tylenol. And so the, the new understanding, of course, that it's inflammation and just take a bunch of ibuprofen, that seemed to, to make a, a huge difference for me.

Uh, so every time I started feeling mastitis, um, coming on, I would just take a bunch of ibuprofen, um, and, and just kind of relax, uh, and, and take it easy. 

[00:34:32] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And presumably your supply was regulating a little bit by then as well. Um, gosh. It's almost like the universe said, no, don't end your lactation journey.

No, here's the new protocol. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, gosh, what a coincidence. I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got the story of Jesse's Milky, which is a picture book from two to six year olds that really tells the story of little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways.

Maybe there'll be a new baby sister. Maybe his mom will need to practice parenthood weaning. Maybe he will have a self weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we are there to support them through all of them.

And also we sometimes have needs to also on endings, we have supporting the transition from breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child. There are also chapters on different individual situations like weaning an older child when there's still a baby, feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation.

Then we have supporting breastfeeding past the first six months and beyond. That's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond. What are the common challenges and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding.

Then we have the breast book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14 year olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is. I talk about brass. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives.

So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley press website. That's uk.jkp.com. Use the code mm PE 10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful.

It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you.

Okay, so let's, let's skip ahead a little bit to the ending of your eldest's feeding journey. Um, how old were they when they stopped breastfeeding or nursing, first of all? 

[00:37:01] Auden: Yeah. Um, she was two years and, and seven months. Um, and at that point I was 14 weeks pregnant with her younger sister. 

[00:37:08] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:37:09] Auden: And, uh, I, I knew that I didn't want a tandem nurse.

Um, I had had a lot of aversion, uh, at, at some points, uh, with breastfeeding her. Uh, and this, uh, I, I think many people will relate to this, but I'm a little embarrassed to admit I, I hated our dog. Um, it, it immediately postpartum. Um, our dog is incredibly sweet. Um, she's well behaved. Um, she sn nothing to complain about.

She, uh, that that was her, her, uh, um, uh, the, the thing that just could annoy me to, to no end, uh, was that I, I felt like her snoring woke the, the baby. And, and that was, you know, 

[00:37:48] Emma Pickett: okay. 

[00:37:49] Auden: Uh, and, and I really didn't wanna have all those feelings. Towards, uh, my daughter that like how much I, I hated the dog. I, I didn't wanna have those kinds of negative feelings, uh, toward, towards my daughter as well.

And I, I felt like if, if I had a lot of breastfeeding aversion with her, um, that, that might then cause uh, some of those negative feelings as well. 

[00:38:10] Emma Pickett: Okay. That's interesting. So almost like the dog was a rehearsal for possibly when you were a parent, two humans, how that might feel like it was, gave you a clue as to what sort of triggers might, might be going on for you.

So did you have HG with your second daughter as well or was that pregnancy? I didn't, no. 

[00:38:27] Auden: Okay. And, and that also was one of the reasons that I, I had wanted to con continue nursing, um, is 'cause there is, uh, a theory that having higher prolactin levels, uh, prevents hg. 

[00:38:39] Emma Pickett: Okay. That's interesting. I haven't heard that before.

Um, can I also quickly zip back to getting pregnant with number two? Lots of people think they have to end breastfeeding to increase their fertility. Did you have a struggle getting pregnant with number two? And how frequently was your eldest nursing when, at the point that you did get pregnant? 

[00:38:57] Auden: Let's see.

[00:38:57] Emma Pickett: I'm not expecting to remember precise details, but had, did you have to night wean to get pregnant? Did you, do you remember making any changes or they were just feeding responsibly and, and you got pregnant? 

[00:39:08] Auden: Uh, we did Night Wean, um, when she was a little bit over two years old. Um, but that wasn't, um, due to fertility.

Um, she had started sleeping through the night occasionally, uh, when she was around 18 months old. And then as she got closer to, to two years old, it started to be a little bit more often. 

[00:39:26] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:39:26] Auden: Um, and it was, I, I think there must have been some sort of hormonal shift for me, um, because when she started sleeping through the night more often than she didn't, those night wakings bothered me a ton more.

Okay. I just, 

[00:39:41] Emma Pickett: that's interesting. 

[00:39:41] Auden: Uh, as soon as she. Had a, um, a, a night waking, then I would just be up for the day, whether that was 2:00 AM or 5:00 AM or 7:00 AM That's 

[00:39:51] Emma Pickett: grim. 

[00:39:52] Auden: Yeah. Um, and so then at that point, I, uh, we, we gently night weaned. Um, 

[00:39:58] Emma Pickett: tell me about your night weaning. Give me the details. Yeah. And rubbing my hands together.

Tell me how you did it. 

[00:40:03] Auden: Um, we just made the rule that we don't nurse in the bedroom anymore. 

[00:40:07] Emma Pickett: Hmm. 

[00:40:07] Auden: Uh, I think that made it really easy to hold the boundary and that those times when I was like, all right, I'm giving in. We could just walk into the living room, uh, and then, uh, you know, if it was 5:00 AM or something like that, we could nurse in, in the living room.

Um, and she might fall asleep in my arms then on the couch, but, okay. Uh, I, I could hold that boundary at the same time that, um, you know, we could work through it. 

[00:40:31] Emma Pickett: Okay. So it's two o'clock in the morning. She's asking to feed and you are saying, well, remember we don't feed in the bedroom anymore. Is she saying, okay, well let's go in the living room then.

But, but you are presumably saying, well, it's sleeping time, it's bedtime. Yeah, we're staying in the bedroom. It's sleeping time. So you were able to kind of use that logic to try and keep her in the bedroom? Um, 

[00:40:50] Auden: yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:40:51] Emma Pickett: And how long did that process take before she was accepting not nursing at night?

[00:40:56] Auden: It actually didn't take all that long. Um, I, I wanna say the, the harder part was, um, uh, not nursing before bed. Uh, 'cause we, we night weaned both with cutting the, the night nursing session and the overnight nursing sessions. Then at the same time, well, 'cause also around that time she had kind of stopped nursing all the way to sleep like she would wanna nurse for a long time and then would unlatch and roll away and, and fall asleep on her own.

And so we would nurse in the living room and then walk into the bedroom. 

[00:41:28] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:41:29] Auden: Um, and then she would fall asleep. 

[00:41:31] Emma Pickett: And did they, um, did she increase her feeding in the day as a response to that, or that was accepted kind of peacefully? Do you remember that being an issue where suddenly she was keen to feed to make up for it in the day or that wasn't particularly a problem?

[00:41:45] Auden: Oh gosh. She nursed all the time during the day. Okay. I don't think I could have noticed a difference. 

[00:41:49] Emma Pickett: Okay. It's not possible for it to be anymore. Okay. So you night weaned. Mm-hmm. Then you got pregnant and then you realized you didn't want to turn and feed. Um, tell us how you ended her nursing journey entirely.

So you were about 14 weeks pregnant at the point that her journey ended completely. How did you go about weaning entirely? 

[00:42:08] Auden: Yeah. Um, so I, I certainly had a lot less, uh, morning sickness with my second pregnancy. Um, but that, you know, didn't mean that I didn't have any, uh, morning sickness by any stretch. Um, and so I started taking, um, MacLaine, which is a, um.

In the same class as antihistamines. Um, and so that pretty well killed my supply at that point. Um, let's see, she would've been two years and, and four months old. 

[00:42:34] Emma Pickett: Okay. And sorry to be a dipstick, that's, that's a drug that reduces sickness, reduces the symptoms of hd. Mm-hmm. And just happens to have that side effect of reducing milk.

And 

[00:42:44] Auden: it does. 

[00:42:44] Emma Pickett: And for some little people, they don't care if the milk goes, 'cause you know, people are gonna be dry nursing get pregnancy. Yeah. Didn't she didn't, she didn't mind at all. Okay. 

[00:42:51] Auden: Mm-hmm. Uh, she did start asking like, where did the milk go? Uh, why is popups milk empty? Um, 

[00:42:57] Emma Pickett: okay. 

[00:42:58] Auden: Those kinds of things.

[00:42:59] Emma Pickett: But still was trying to nurse And did you then have to say, okay, right, we're gonna have to actually stop, stop the actual nursing entirely. How did you explain that to her? What, how did you go about doing that? 

[00:43:11] Auden: Yeah. I, I, uh, had kinda started trying to build in a lot of the kind of distraction, um, kinds of things with like.

Let's have milk after we go and do this other thing. Um, let's read a story first. Let's sing a song first. Um, and then realized that I, I, I was spending quite a lot of time with like, trying to, to distract and it didn't really feel all that honest to me instead of just talking to her about it. And so, uh, I, I think that we probably found the advice from maybe from your podcast about, uh, making a story.

Um, so we, we made our own little storybook. That, uh, you know, in the beginning, the only way that Papa could love you was by giving you milk. And now there are so many foods you can eat and so many ways that papa could love you. Um, and she would like, add her own each time we would read the story, uh, which was also really kind of fun to see, like the, the moments of connection that that mattered a lot to her.

Um, like we cleaned the refrigerator, uh, one day and was just really silly about the way that we were doing it, uh, together. And so then all of a sudden, like cleaning the refrigerator is included in the story about what the, one of the ways that Papa loves you. 

[00:44:23] Emma Pickett: Oh, I've never heard that before. Clean the refrigerator is a bonding experience.

Let's extend that to anything else. So, so is it papa that, that she calls you? Did you say Pa? Pa a, pa a, yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. 

[00:44:34] Auden: Yeah. Uh, as, as short parent. 

[00:44:36] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. 

[00:44:37] Auden: Mm-hmm. 

[00:44:38] Emma Pickett: And so the story helped. She had that acceptance. 

[00:44:41] Auden: Yeah. 

[00:44:41] Emma Pickett: The journey ended. Mm-hmm. You carried on. Being pregnant and, 

[00:44:45] Auden: yeah. Um, yeah, and I, uh, let's see.

Then I had, um, in the second beginning of the second trimester, then I had stopped taking Melaine and so my milk kind of came back a little bit. Uh, and then I got mastitis again. 

[00:44:57] Emma Pickett: Oh no. 

[00:44:57] Auden: And at that point it was like, I, I don't think my body can handle the, um, kind of rollercoaster of, of how many times we would nurse.

'cause there would be some days where I'd feel more tired and we'd nurse a ton. And then the next day where I felt more capable of trying all of those distraction techniques and it would maybe be a day or two without nursing. And so then getting mastitis again, it was like, I, I think my body needs to 

[00:45:19] Emma Pickett: yeah, 

[00:45:19] Auden: be either be really consistent.

Um, and, and it felt like the only way that I could really be consistent was by not nursing, uh, at all at that point. 

[00:45:28] Emma Pickett: Lots of opportunities to clean out the fridge, um, to connect instead. And so then obviously your pregnancy continues. Were you worried that she might ask a nurse when new baby was born? Was that ever something that happened?

[00:45:41] Auden: Um, she really loves playing with dolls. Um, and so she would always nurse her dolls. Um, so I, I think the connection never, uh, went away for her. Uh, she did ask to nurse again, gosh, a, a couple of times later when I was pregnant. Um, and there was one time that I let her, 'cause I had heard from an, uh, a couple of friends who had, you know, older nurse Lings, uh, who said that they forget how to latch pretty quickly.

And, you know, it'd be maybe just kind of a silly moment. Um, and that actually wasn't true for her. Mm-hmm. Um, her latch was just fine. Oops. Um, and, uh, I think I was just kind of a little bit shocked by it and, and laughed. Um, and then we laughed together. Uh, and, and that was it. Yeah. And, uh, let's see, in the, in the real early days, um, she wanted me to, to nurse her doll as well.

[00:46:33] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. So that was her agency. She wasn't asking to nurse herself, she just wanted you to do nurse her doll. That's her way of, of kind of feeling empowered. That's, that's, that's handy. 

[00:46:44] Auden: Yeah. 

[00:46:44] Emma Pickett: We've skipped over birth of, of number two. Was that a home birth again? How did that go? 

[00:46:50] Auden: It was, yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, and she was right there, uh, for, for the birth.

Um, she was holding a flashlight for the midwives. 

[00:46:57] Emma Pickett: Oh, fabulous. Yeah. That, that's really special. Um, and how is feeding Jenny been for number two? 

[00:47:04] Auden: Yeah. Uh, moving internationally, uh, with a, a newborn and a toddler, um, is not something I would recommend 

[00:47:10] Emma Pickett: to anyone. Oh, yeah, of course. How, how old was your newborn when you moved to Denmark?

[00:47:15] Auden: Yeah, she was eight weeks 

[00:47:15] Emma Pickett: old. Oh my goodness. Okay. That is intense. So you're packing up and shipping and boxes and finding a new place to live and all that stuff. While you are in those very, very early stages of number two, that's tough. And moving away from family and a support network and your midwife.

I mean, that's also another element too. 

[00:47:33] Auden: Yeah, certainly. Um, certainly living my midwife. Uh, and, uh, we also had a, a, a really great doctor. Um, leaving both of them was, was really difficult, um, which is why we actually decided to, uh, continue living in the US until after she was born, uh, until she was eight weeks old to kind of get through that, that first part.

Um, but actually, uh, my family doesn't live all that close to, to Madison, Wisconsin. Um, uh, and so moving to my husband's hometown now, we have a lot more family support. 

[00:48:02] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. What's the sort of situation with nursing in, in Denmark? I, my absolute misunderstanding and cliche, like, like I've got my assumptions about Wisconsin.

I imagine Denmark, everyone's breastfeeding three year olds in coffee shops, and it's all very kind of pro lactation. Is that the case? Is it, is it a very lactation, friendly place? 

[00:48:22] Auden: Hmm. Um, you know, the, it's, it's kind of funny coming from the us uh, where. Like nursing rates are very, very high, uh, despite the fact that there's, you know, quite a lot of social stigma in terms of being public.

Yes. It's fascinating, isn't it? Public, 

[00:48:37] Emma Pickett: and actually, can I give you a job or as a medical statistician, I mean, obviously you've got nothing else to do. Being a parent of two children, I, I cannot get my head around the, the result the states and how they're nursing. Um, results are so high. I mean, the CDC report card has probably been killed by, um, the current administration.

But all the stats show that mm-hmm. US rates are higher at six weeks, at six months, at 12 months, despite the lack of parental leave. Despite the fact we don't have the WHO code encoded in law and everyone's been given formula samples. It's still really, really high breastfeeding rates. Can I ask you, with your statistician brain on, why do you think that is?

What's going on? 

[00:49:15] Auden: Um, I, I, in terms of just comparing the US and, and Denmark, I, I think it's the sense of perfectionism. Uh, everyone wants very desperately to do the very best for their child, and, and good enough is not good enough. Um, you, you need to do it perfectly rather than there's not, not at all. Uh, that, that same sense of, uh, of perfectionism in, in Denmark.

[00:49:39] Emma Pickett: Okay. Wow, that's interesting. So you think there's some sort of internalized culture around people putting pressure on themselves to be a certain kind of parent and that means 

[00:49:48] Auden: Yeah. 

[00:49:49] Emma Pickett: Ticking the nursing box. 

[00:49:51] Auden: Mm-hmm. 

[00:49:51] Emma Pickett: Gosh, that's interesting. I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that before. Thank you.

That's really interesting. So you're in Denmark. You've got your 2-year-old who's probably nearly three at this point. Um, and you've got your eight week old and, and let's have a quick chat about clothing, 'cause that's something that you mentioned in an email to me as a nursing parent who's non-binary.

Out and about wanting to nurse in public finding clothing that's compatible with nursing. Tell me about that journey. 

[00:50:19] Auden: Yeah, I think it's kind of difficult for anyone, uh, who's lactating to figure out what, what feels comfortable for them. Um, but I, I feel like it's especially something that, uh, comes up on, on non-binary parenting forums, um, quite a lot.

What's worked well for me is to have, um, a button up shirt, uh, on underneath some sort of sweater. Um, so I'll leave the buttons unbuttoned until about my, my sternum, uh, so that I can kind of pull things out discreetly. Um, I also really like the shirts that have, uh, the double zippers that go straight across the, the bus line.

I find. Often with those two that people don't even really realize that I, I'm nursing, it just kind of looks like I'm holding a baby, uh, or, uh, in, in lighter years, a, a toddler as well. Uh, and just kind of giving them them comfort. 

[00:51:07] Emma Pickett: Okay. And what about pregnancy clothing? Was that something that was pretty easy to find in a way that felt comfortable?

[00:51:14] Auden: Oh, that's even harder. I feel like, um, uh, non-binary, uh, or, or just even more masculine leaning pregnancy clothing, I think is something that, that barely exists in my first pregnancy. Having hyperemesis and then still kind of being on the tail end of COVID. Um, I worked for home and so honestly, I just wore pajamas, uh, pretty much all the time.

My second pregnancy, um, I had a lot more conferences to go to, so I, I kind of had to, to dress up and be professional, and so I kind of found a little bit of a compromise in, in finding some of the like, button up, uh, pregnancy, uh, shirts. Uh, and I really liked the, uh, corduroys from h and. That kind of felt like a 

[00:51:54] Emma Pickett: Okay.

[00:51:54] Auden: Bridging that gap of being professional and also, uh, pregnancy friendly. 

[00:51:59] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yep. So you're living in Denmark. Are you actually in Copenhagen or are you somewhere else? 

[00:52:04] Auden: I am, yeah, just outside of Copenhagen. Yeah. 

[00:52:06] Emma Pickett: I love Copenhagen. It's such a, such a great city. Yeah, it's a beautiful city. It really is. Yeah.

My daughter's hoping to study there at some point. Um, so you are parenting two back at work as a statistician, um mm-hmm. And that's in a sort of Danish system you are working or are you still working for an American system? I don't mean to ask you for your CV or your resume, but what, what's, how does work work for you at the moment with, with two children?

[00:52:32] Auden: Yeah. I've, I've worked at home, uh, remotely ever since COVID. Um, and so I've just continued to do that. A lot of my collaborators are in the UK actually. Uh, so it works out really nicely that, um, now it doesn't take a whole day to get an email reply, uh, that we have, you know, a lot more overlap and working hours.

Uh, so there's a lot more, uh, back and forth, um, that way. Um, and unfortunately does mean a little bit more evening meetings, uh, than I maybe anticipated, uh, uh, before moving. 

[00:53:03] Emma Pickett: How does that work with your nursing journey with number two? How's that going alongside work? 

[00:53:07] Auden: So my, my husband is, is on leave. Um, so he's home, uh, all the time with her.

Um, and especially when we first moved, um, she would just nurse to sleep in my arms and then I would continue working, uh, with one hand on the keyboard. And then he would take her when, when she woke up and, you know, needed a diaper change or anything else that they need when they're awake. 

[00:53:28] Emma Pickett: So, number two, obviously we're still early days, we haven't even got to, to seven months yet.

Um 

[00:53:33] Auden: mm-hmm. 

[00:53:33] Emma Pickett: Do you have a feeling about how you want that journey to end? And are you, and are you stopping at two children? What's, what's your plan? 

[00:53:40] Auden: I, I don't think we realized before we came, parent became parents. How much, uh. Uh, time we would want to spend with them, uh, at home. Uh, and so my husband's career has really taken a, a hit on in order to be able to, to spend a lot of time at home and in order for me to continue, uh, being able to work and nurse, uh, and, uh, um, and, and spend time parenting as well.

And so I think it really kind of will be a conversation in, in terms of what, what he wants to do. Okay. Uh, I, I think, uh, I, I think he would be happier if he got back into the workforce and, and started doing things that, that, uh, were a little bit more mentally stimulating for him. Yeah. Uh, but yeah, I, I think we'd love to have another child, so, we'll, we'll have to figure that out.

[00:54:26] Emma Pickett: Okay. So like a bit more lactation to come. Um, can I ask you a question about how Denmark is as a non-binary person? I think, I think at the moment, lots of us are worried when we hear about what's happening in America, although UK is nothing to wave flags about either. Um, what, what does it feel like living in, in Denmark.

[00:54:45] Auden: Yeah. Um, especially for me as a, uh, a non-binary person, I, I find that, uh, I'm gendered very differently in different contexts. Um, so like Madison, Wisconsin, who's, um, very queer friendly, very, very, uh, progressive, very blue people often read me, uh, as probably like a lesbian. Um, and so wouldn't put our family together.

Um, and, and so I think there were a number of times when people would be a little bit confused about why my very masculine looking husband is also the parent and I'm the parent, uh, and our, our daughter and, and putting all of us together. Um, versus like when I had visited, uh, some family members who live more rurally, um, I was often seen as a teenage boy.

Um, and so then they would assume that, that he was. Not the father of the child, um, but that I was just kind of some unrelated, 

[00:55:39] Emma Pickett: A nephew hanging out. Yeah. Okay. 

[00:55:42] Auden: Yeah. Mm. 

[00:55:42] Emma Pickett: People just want to put you in a box to work out how to 

[00:55:45] Auden: organize 

[00:55:45] Emma Pickett: you. 

[00:55:46] Auden: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:55:46] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:55:46] Auden: For sure. Uh, rather than in, in Copenhagen, I, I'm often gendered as a woman and, and not, uh, um, it, it seems fine for them to, to put us together as a family.

Uh, and so in terms of interacting with society and, and gender, I actually find a lot of safety in that. Um, in having our family recognized by other people as just kind of a, an instinct, um, that all of us belong together. Um, especially my oldest would, uh, was very active and would, you know, run all sorts of places and then run back.

Uh, and, and having that ability to be recognized as the. The correct adult for her to run back to. Okay. Felt really important. Um, at, at different points. 

[00:56:29] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And, and your papa. Um, and that's going to be what she calls you in daycare and nursery and school and, um, what's your husband called? 

[00:56:40] Auden: Um, so the Danish word for dad is far.

[00:56:42] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:56:42] Auden: FAR. 

[00:56:43] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. Far. And papa, that's a cute combo. Um, um, so presumably as your daughter gets older, you'll be having open conversations with educators and, and daycare people and, and that's all gonna be in your future. And, and, um, do you have any resources that you like as a family about gender? Is that something you've talked about yet with your eldest, or that doesn't feel something you need to do yet?

[00:57:09] Auden: Yeah, absolutely. Um, there's a really good, uh, series of, of books, um, 

[00:57:16] Emma Pickett: Auden's just stepping away from the, to go and get some books. 

[00:57:19] Auden: Yeah. Well the, the bookshelf is right next to me. Let's see. The, um, the book that specifically deals, uh, most closely with, with gender, uh, is called Being You. My first conversation about gender and, uh, kind of walks through, uh, that like everybody has a body and, uh, you know, everybody has a, a gender and, and what pronouns are, um, in a really approachable way.

[00:57:44] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:57:44] Auden: Um, I like this book A little bit less than, um, the same author group also, uh, has a book about, um, consent. Um, and I think the title is Yes, no, a first conversation about Consent. Um, and that's just a lot of kind of bodily auto autonomy, um, uh, kind of that safeguarding kind of language in terms of, you know, these are the names of all of your body parts.

Uh, you can use your body to do things that, that feel good and tell your parents if something's not feeling good. 

[00:58:15] Emma Pickett: Okay. Yeah. It sounds like you're, you're having all these valuable conversations. So you mentioned the possibility of having a, a third child depending on how, how your husband feels and how that goes.

And then you also said at the beginning of our conversation that you imagine top surgery being in your future. 

[00:58:29] Auden: Yeah. 

[00:58:29] Emma Pickett: But at the moment, presumably that feels quite distant because, um, you know, there could be another third child in the middle and you're still, you know, nursing your, your youngest. 

[00:58:37] Auden: Yeah.

Yeah. The, the funny thing about all of that is, uh, after, let's see, I think even actually before I got pregnant with my second, um, the, you know, body changes after lactation with my chest getting flatter, um, I actually haven't really felt the same need for Okay. For top surgery, uh, now kind of post first lactation.

And, uh, it, it also just has felt really kind of healing to have, having had, you know, carried around these body parts for all of my life. Um, and that really haven't felt like me. Uh, like even to the point where I like will run into things, uh, with, with my chest or with my hips because my like mental body image doesn't feel like it, it belongs on my body.

Then having two children who's who, like these body parts belong to them. 

[00:59:31] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:59:31] Auden: It's their milk. That's been really, uh, kind of healing for me. I, I know some people have kind of talked about the opposite end, that they feel like they can't get their body back until they stop lactating. Um, and I feel like to some extent I've, um, I'm on the opposite end of that, that while I'm lactating, uh, this is their body and, and, and we're not totally separate yet.

[00:59:51] Emma Pickett: Okay. That'll 

[00:59:52] Auden: be, and that's okay. 

[00:59:53] Emma Pickett: That's really eloquent. Thank you for sharing that. Um, I just wonder whether breasts, when they're not doing anything, are. Are very sexual, aren't they? They are all about, yeah. Being female and a woman and a, the subject of a, a, a male gaze or a desire gaze and that it doesn't feel great for lots of people, including some cis women as well.

And, and yeah. When they start, especially not great for me. Yeah. And especially not great for, yeah. And, and for anybody who is then lactating and realizing the value and the, and the purpose of, of that part body part, I can then totally appreciate that your relationship to that changes. And I think, as I said, somebody who's not non-binary or trans can, can relate to that too.

Um, yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So yeah, thank you so much for your time today, den. I'm, I'm really very, very grateful. Is there anything that we haven't touched on that you wanted to make sure we talked about? 

[01:00:45] Auden: Did you wanna talk about testosterone? Yes. Or was that, uh, too controversial subjects? 

[01:00:49] Emma Pickett: No, no.

Let's, let's talk about it. Yeah. 

[01:00:51] Auden: So, uh, the kind of medical evidence, uh, that I've been able to find, uh, is that testosterone in a very, very early postpartum definitely will, will stop your milk supply. They, they've used it at some points in history that they would give a, a testosterone injection at like a roughly 24 hours postpartum, and that would stop milk from coming in, uh, in entirely.

Um, but we really don't have all that much evidence that, uh, testosterone impacts milk supply, um, after, uh, eab, uh, after supply has been established. Um, and so probably starting testosterone after three months, uh, is probably not gonna have a major effect on supply. The other thing that I was a little bit more worried about, uh, when I started taking testosterone while still lactating.

Was that taking testosterone orally, um, is actually really toxic for your liver. This is why most people who are taking testosterone is either by patch or gel or injection, um, because it's, it's not a good idea to take as a pill. And so, yeah, I started taking testosterone again when my daughter was eight, eight months postpartum.

[01:02:00] Emma Pickett: Okay. So this is number one eldest. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. 

[01:02:03] Auden: Elst. Yeah. 

[01:02:03] Emma Pickett: And, and obviously you'd had that hyper lactation, so your supply was very, very, very well established. And, and when you started taking it, you didn't notice any reduction? 

[01:02:13] Auden: I didn't. Um, and I, I did a couple things to prepare. Um, I did have a decent amount of milk in the freezer.

Uh, I didn't actually have all that much 'cause I only had one set of pump parts and I wasn't using the milk to feed my own daughter. So I often just, uh, left the pump parts out on the counter, uh, and then would pour the milk down the drain. Um, that's 

[01:02:35] Emma Pickett: funny. 

[01:02:36] Auden: Yeah. Right. You're allowed your, 

[01:02:39] Emma Pickett: your milk, you're allowed.

[01:02:40] Auden: So, yeah. Uh, well, it, it was a little heartbreaking. Um, but I also felt very proud then of the milk that was in the freezer that like, I was really on the, on top of it, right. I had washed things, I had sterilized things. I had remembered, um, to, to put it in the freezer. 

[01:02:56] Emma Pickett: And you had that stash in case your supply crashed and, and you just wanted to have that, that milk available.

Okay. 

[01:03:03] Auden: Exactly. I started pumping again, uh, when she was six months, just once a day. Uh, 'cause I wanted to have 250 milliliter, or 250, uh, ounces, um, of, of milk in the freezer just in case. Uh, that's a pretty 

[01:03:18] Emma Pickett: impressive stash. Wouldn't that said. Okay. And then you started taking it. Did you start at a much lower dose?

How, how did that go? And did you, and you had obviously a medical practitioner supporting you with making that decision. Were they knowledgeable about lactation and testosterone? 

[01:03:33] Auden: Yeah. Um, so at that point then I had switched over to, um, a direct primary care doctor, um, who was absolutely fabulous. Um, I, I, I'm happy to give her a shout out.

Uh, Angela Marchand, uh, from Tallgrass Family Medicine. Um, and she, uh, is almost done with getting her, um, and it's called an N-A-B-B-L-M. Uh, so the, the kind of doctor version of an I-B-C-L-C, uh, that's just starting in the us. Um, so that's the North American board of, uh, breastfeeding and lactation medicine.

And so, you know, she essentially has her, actually, I think she also did sit for her I-B-C-L-C, so a, a, a both, um, a doctor and, and also, um, a, a breastfeeding medicine expert. So yeah, it was really great to have, have her support. Um, and, uh, based on, on where we lived, uh, they recommended lead testing, uh, nine months, uh, and a year, um, which is just a simple blood test.

Um, and so we also then tested my daughter for, um. Her testosterone levels, um, and her liver enzyme levels and, and, uh, her liver enzymes were, were perfectly fine and there was no deductible, uh, testosterone, uh, for her. Okay. Um, and so that, that made me feel comfortable to continue. 

[01:04:53] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Did you, did you say lead testing?

[01:04:56] Auden: Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[01:04:56] Emma Pickett: Because of lead in the, in the water supply or in the environment? That's something that's happens as standard in your area. Okay. 

[01:05:04] Auden: Yeah. Um, to be totally honest, I'm not exactly sure why. Um, but that, that was the, the standard advice, uh, in the area. 

[01:05:11] Emma Pickett: Okay. Um, must be something about old pipes or something.

Okay. So you've absolutely got that confirmation that your daughter's okay and you can carry on with your own care and then when you were going to get pregnant again. You then came off the testosterone prior to trying? Is that how it worked? 

[01:05:27] Auden: No, I actually stopped, uh, taking testosterone, uh, uh, not long after I, I had started again.

Um, 'cause I, I got really bad aversion. Uh, and to be quite honest, I, I don't think that it was related. Um, but it was one of those kind of, of things where I wanted to continue nursing and I just was really desperate to have it feel better. And, and so literally anything that I could think of, um, to, to make the aversion stop, I I was willing to do.

Okay. 

[01:05:57] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[01:05:57] Auden: Um, and I think ultimately, looking back on it now, it probably was due to a lot of biting. Um, and, and so setting more boundaries, uh, with, with biting is, is ultimately what, what helped the aversion the most. 

[01:06:11] Emma Pickett: Okay. And now with number two, six months old, are you back on testosterone again now with number two?

[01:06:18] Auden: I'm not, uh, speaking of differences between Denmark and the US in, in terms of being trans-friendly. Um, no. The, the waiting lists here are, um, incredibly long. And I also probably, uh, wouldn't be, I, I would probably be rejected, um, based on the fact that, that I am lactating, um, because that would be seen as not performing my gender correctly.

[01:06:40] Emma Pickett: Not performing your gender correctly. Really. That's a, 

[01:06:43] Auden: yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[01:06:45] Emma Pickett: A label that someone else gets to put on you. Yeah. 

[01:06:47] Auden: Yeah. Up until very recently, they would also, um, deny people who were gay. Um, so if you were a trans person in Denmark wanting, uh, hormone replacement therapy, you also needed to be dating the opposite sex, or at least state that 

[01:07:01] Emma Pickett: Oh my God.

Oh, wouldn't, that's horrific. 

[01:07:03] Auden: Yeah. 

[01:07:04] Emma Pickett: That is just absolutely horrifying. I've never heard that before. Gosh, I'm, but you said until recently, that's changed now, has it? 

[01:07:12] Auden: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, and there are private options as well. 

[01:07:15] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[01:07:15] Auden: Um. Uh, there, um, it, it does still take a, a long time to, to get through all of that.

Um, and so that, that's something that I'm sure we'll look at, uh, uh, at some point in the future. But especially with having small kids, uh, at, at home, I would wanna do injectable to testosterone, uh, which is a little bit, um, 

just 

[01:07:36] Emma Pickett: in case they come across a patch or, or touch something that they shouldn't 

[01:07:40] Auden: Yeah.

Um, yeah. Before I got pregnant for the first time I was, uh, um, on testosterone cream. Um, and so I'd rub it on, uh, like my upper shoulder or, uh, my belly. Um, and having a cis male partner, if he got a little bit of testosterone on him, that would be okay. But I don't wanna have to be making sure that, um, my kids aren't getting in the dirty laundry and those kinds of 

[01:08:02] Emma Pickett: things.

Yeah. Touching your skin and Yeah. That's, 

[01:08:05] Auden: yeah, 

[01:08:05] Emma Pickett: that's another layer of stress. I can appreciate that. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much for 

[01:08:08] Auden: Yeah. Especially with lactating, how do you keep your kids off of your 

[01:08:11] Emma Pickett: body? Yeah. Yeah. That, that's not complicated. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for going into detail on that, that that's, that's really, really valuable.

Okay. Last question. Someone listening to this who is working in the world of lactation support, who is probably cis themselves, hasn't had a lot of experience working with non-binary or, or trans parents, what resources would you recommend? Is there anything you'd want them to know? What message would you want to leave them with?

[01:08:38] Auden: Yeah, and um, in terms of resources, uh, I would highly recommend, uh, Tristan Reese's work. Um, he has a company called, uh, trans Fertility Co. Uh, he was a man who, uh, carried his own, um, his own baby, uh, and was quite public about it. Uh, his father is also an ob GN, um, so he's. Got a lot of resources, uh, more towards the, the fertility and getting pregnant.

[01:09:03] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[01:09:03] Auden: Um, kind of side, but there certainly are some resources in lactation as well. Um, there's also a really great book, um, called Where's the Mother? Um, by Trevor McDonald. Trevor 

[01:09:13] Emma Pickett: McDonald. That's my, the name. I was gonna say, um, he's definitely the sort of pioneer for lots of us who, who've been in the breastfeeding world for a while.

So Trevor McDonald is maybe was, well, well, was a electro league leader in Canada, if I'm remembering correctly. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and used a tube feeding a supplementary nursing system, um, to, to feed his children. But, um, yeah, his book is, I think, a really important read for anybody in this area. 

[01:09:39] Auden: Absolutely. Uh, and he's also got a Facebook group, um, called Birthing and Chest Feeding, uh, trans and Non-Binary people.

Um, and so I think that's a really great resource both for practitioners, uh, practitioners are allowed in the, in the public facing, uh, part of the group, um, as well. 

[01:09:53] Emma Pickett: Okay. Thank you. That's super valuable. You've been very generous with your time today, Auden. Thank you so much. Um, I'm really grateful. Yeah, and good luck with the continuation of, um, your second lactation journey and, uh, I'd love to hear how that ends and, and how you carry on.

So, so keep in touch. Thank you 

[01:10:10] Auden: Will too. Thanks.

[01:10:15] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett IBCLC and on Twitter at Makes Milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.