Danielle's story - an IGT journey

This week, I’m welcoming Danielle Kyaligonza, who joins me from Uganda to talk about her breastfeeding journey with insufficient glandular tissue (IGT). Danielle describes a positive planned C-section birth in Cheshire, but on day five her baby Annie had lost 13% of birth weight and was later found to be severely dehydrated. This led to hospital admission, formula supplementation, and a traumatic start with pumping and limited breastfeeding support on a children’s ward. After weeks of triple feeding and minimal pumping improvement, a lactation consultant suggested IGT, with possible hormonal factors including suspected PCOS. Danielle sought domperidone via Dr Sharon Silberstein, and saw some supply increase and leaking, but experienced insomnia, vivid dreams and anxiety when tapering off too fast. She now combi-feeds, breastfeeding six months old Annie mainly when she isn’t hungry to encourage positive associations. Danielle is rightly proud of her perseverance in carrying on with breastfeeding despite all the challenges she faced.

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, by going to https://bit.ly/JKPbooks and using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

Resources mentioned - 

Finding Sufficiency: Breastfeeding with insufficient glandular tissue https://www.lllgbbooks.co.uk/store/p230/FindingSufficiency.html

Breastfeeding Grief by Professor Amy Brown https://professoramybrown.co.uk/breastfeeding-grief

Caoimhe Whelan https://latch.ie/

Dr Sharon Silberstein https://www.breastfeedingdoctor.co.uk/

IGT And Low Milk Supply Support Group | Facebook https://www.facebook.com/groups/IGTmamas/?ref=share

Danielle would like to mention @thriveinfantfeeding on Instagram. Shami gave her lots of messaging support.

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. Thank you very much for joining me for, for, for today's episode.

I'm going to be talking to Danielle, um, that's Danielle Kyaligonza and she's actually in Uganda. So for anyone who's a bird watcher, there's some lovely bird noises in the background that you don't get when you talk to somebody when they're in Cheshire, which is also where Danielle spends a lot of her time.

Um, Danielle, thank you very much for joining me today. Where, whereabouts in Uganda are you?

[00:01:10] Danielle: I'm in Jinja, which is on the banks of Lake Victoria in the start of the River Nile. So worst places to be in a January.

[00:01:18] Emma Pickett: I was gonna say fantastic. I mean, you're, we're wearing this lovely like low cut, top warm, sunny kinda day kind of clothing.

I'm sitting with all my fleeces on and, and do you have an open door to the outside or is, are there lots of birds outside? Just 'cause there's a garden out the door.

[00:01:32] Danielle: No, the door is open as well. 'cause it's, I think 32 degrees today.

[00:01:36] Emma Pickett: Okay. Wow. Fantastic. I'm from a bird watching family, which is why I'm being nerdy and mentioning the bird straight away.

[00:01:42] Danielle: There are amazing birds here.

[00:01:44] Emma Pickett: I bet there are. We're gonna talk about your breastfeeding journey and as the title of the episode suggests, we're gonna be talking about a journey with IGT and for a lot of people in the UK who've had this experience, you know, this is not an easy journey because most people don't get the right support.

So this may be a difficult listen for some people who've had this experience themselves, but, um, hopefully also a listen that will inform others and help them with their stories and also help people in the breastfeeding support world. So thank you very much for joining me today. Tell me about your family.

[00:02:17] Danielle: Okay, um, so, uh, it's me and my husband and we had our first baby July, 2025. So she's six months old. Just literally a couple days ago. Yeah, we were quite lucky. Everything went quite smoothly, kind of pregnancy wise. We ended up having a C-section because she was breach, so we knew that all the way through.

Because I'm clinically obese, the joys of BMI, we were having growth scans, which was actually a blessing in disguise. So we knew she was breach from, you know, the whole way through really. So as it got to the point where it was kind of crunch time, we weren't really given a lot of choice about whether we wanted to try for a vaginal birth or not.

It was kind of like, these are all the ways that you and your baby can die if you try and go ahead with a vaginal birth. I just remember being in the consultants room, just in floods of tears because I wasn't ready to kind of face the fact that I needed a upon section. But, um, it was definitely the right decision and the birth itself went really, really well.

We're very lucky. Okay. Um, kind of, I've actually enjoyed it, which I know some women will say they enjoyed birth, but I did enjoy our C-section, which I know a lot of women haven't got that experience. That's, yeah.

[00:03:28] Emma Pickett: And, and before, in a minute, I'm going to reverse the time machine and talk a little bit about your feelings about breastfeeding before you had Annie.

But tell me a little bit about what was positive about your birth? Did you get to have that skin to skin time? Tell me about, 'cause a lot of people, I think when they're here, they're having a C-section are really nervous and they think that means they won't get that connection. They will feel that their birth experience has been robbed from them.

So it's really lovely to talk to someone who had a positive experience. Tell me a little bit about what was positive about it.

[00:03:54] Danielle: I quite liked having it planned then. It was planned about three days before it happened. It wasn't, you know, planned very long before, but it meant then that I knew it was coming.

You know, I wasn't waiting for labor to kick in, which was kind of quite scary thinking it could happen at any moment. And I actually drove us to the hospital in the morning knowing that I wouldn't be able to drive for a few. Um, so drove us in and it was all very relaxed. There was only two couples booked in that day.

The team were amazing. The surgeon was hilarious. Um, he just came in and was just very matter of fact about the whole thing. You could just, it just felt like it was his day-to-day job, which obviously it is, but for you, it's like the most life-changing moment you're about to go through. And for them, it's literally just what they do every day.

They asked if we wanted our music and things, but as we walked in they were playing Spice Girls. And I thought, I can get on board with this. We'll just keep this playlist on that time. Um, and then we got chatting and the anesthetist actually had been to Uganda, which was really nice. 'cause my husband's Ugandan, that's why we're here at the minute.

So that was just a nice connection. And yeah, obviously the spinal injection wasn't a particularly pleasant experience, but apart from that, they were just chatting and keeping us relaxed and. Yeah, everything went smoothly. Like she came out very quickly. I know anyone who's had a C-section, hopefully at least a planned one, will say the same, that the baby appears very quickly.

And my husband was in like sobbing in floods of tears when she arrived and I was just relieved. I didn't cry. I dunno if some of that was the meds. So some of it was just, you know, she's here and she's fine. We didn't know what sex either we were having. So it wasn't until she literally came out and the surgeon went, I know what you've had.

And then like lifted her up in the Lion King moment to like show us. Yeah, unfortunately the only bit that I would've changed was the skin to skin because I didn't get immediate skin to skin. And there isn't actually, in hindsight, there wasn't any reason I shouldn't have got the immediate skin to skin because she was fine.

But the midwife took her off the surgeon and then said to me, oh, should we just do the checks now? So I kind of was like, oh yeah, okay. And actually skin to skin was the one thing I was adamant I wanted straight away. So that was a little bit disappointing On hindsight. And did take me a bit of, you know, getting over a few weeks later.

'cause I looked at the timestamps on the photos a couple of weeks later, you know, in the middle of one of the night feeds. And it was, you know, about 20 minutes before she then was put on me when we were taken to recovery. And you know, obviously there's lots of women that have to go a lot longer without having that skin to skin for medical reasons.

But I think for us, because there wasn't a reason, it was quite frustrating that she wasn't giving to me straight away, but it meant my husband got cuddles. So that was nice at least.

[00:06:36] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that is special. Um, and you said he was in floods of tears. Was that because that wave of joy, ecstasy of seeing Annie?

Or was he worried about you? What, I don't mean to kind of get you to speak on his behalf, but what was happening for him do you think?

[00:06:48] Danielle: No, we've talked about it quite a lot actually. We had a bit of a, a debrief a few weeks later. Um, he, his was because he was desperate for a little girl. I think he really wanted a daughter and he is such a girl, dad.

Um, yeah. So I think that was the main thing. But also he was terrified through the whole surgery, which I didn't realize until we spoke about it weeks later. Um, I thought it was all fine and it was great and I wasn't doing anything, you know, in terms of birth. It was the easiest. I could have had it. Um, yeah.

But I think he was terrified the whole way through, which he didn't. Yeah. Tell me thankfully until much later, presumably wanting to protect you from that, so

[00:07:26] Emma Pickett: Of course. So let's go in our little time machine. Let's go back to the beginning of your pregnancy. What did breastfeeding mean to you while you were pregnant?

Did you have any family background with breastfeeding? Where were you with your antenatal education? Tell me about you and breastfeeding.

[00:07:38] Danielle: Mm-hmm. So back when I was younger, in the late teens, early twenties, I was kind of grossed out by breastfeeding, I'll be honest. And I think there's probably quite a lot of young women that might feel the same.

You know, that's not what I saw. My boobs as my boobs were something else, and. It was actually living in Uganda that made me really kind of think about breastfeeding as something that I wanted to do because it's so normal here. You see it everywhere. Women will literally just pop a boob out on the side of the street on a taxi, you know, anywhere and everywhere.

You just see babies and toddlers and children breastfeeding and that wasn't something I grew up with. Um, I was an only child. I didn't have lots of people breastfeeding around me growing up. I was formula fed, um, from birth. So my attitudes definitely shifted when I lived over here.

[00:08:29] Emma Pickett: Then how long did you live in Uganda?

Is that where you met your husband?

[00:08:32] Danielle: Yes, I was here about three years. Um, yeah, I was here about a year before I met him and then stayed with him for a bit and then we moved to the uk. But my attitudes in pregnancy to breastfeeding were very much as I think a lot of women, I'll give it a go, see if I can.

I'd like to, if I struggle, it doesn't really matter, you know, but that very much changed when I had her. I then just had this like feral instinct almost to be like, I need to do this. Which really surprised me. I think a lot of people will relate to that. I think that's a, that's so commonly a story I hear where people say, I don't wanna put pressure on myself.

Mm-hmm. If it works out great, but I know it doesn't for lots of people. And that word you used feral is such a great word because it's, it comes deep from somewhere, doesn't it? For a lot of people.

[00:09:19] Emma Pickett: Yeah. It's surprising. And you can't even explain it. Do you remember her, her first feed? How did that go?

[00:09:25] Danielle: I do, yeah.

So she was on me when we were wheeled through to recovery. Um, and she was nuzzling and kind of crawling, like crawling up and doing all the things she was supposed to be doing again. And she, she latched on and there was colostrum there. And I remember I actually took a picture of the colostrum coming out of my boob because I was like, oh wow.

Like this milk there. This is amazing. Yeah. And she had a little feed and that was noted by the midwife. And yeah, it all, it just felt really. Natural and that this is what's supposed to happen. And I was a little bit worried with having the section that maybe it wouldn't happen as quickly. You know, the I'd read about there being delays and things because of things that happening naturally.

But actually I, I was really pleased that it all seemed to be kind of ticking over and happening as it should. And it was really special.

[00:10:12] Emma Pickett: And you were in the UK at this point just to say, so you, so you were living in Uganda, you met your husband, you both came back to the UK to live in the UK in in Cheshire, and that's where you had Annie.

Did your husband have a background of breastfeeding in his family? You mentioned the sort of Ugandan tradition of breastfeeding. Was that very much not his normal?

[00:10:28] Danielle: Yes. So completely normal for him. So he's second oldest of four and he'd watched his mom breastfeed his younger siblings. Um, and it was just super normal.

Like he has memories himself of breastfeeding as a child. I'm not sure want me to necessarily say that on, on a podcast, but he probably won't listen to this.

[00:10:47] Emma Pickett: I doubt his mates are gonna be listening to this.

[00:10:49] Danielle: Exactly. I think we're okay.

[00:10:50] Emma Pickett: And I think it's, and I think it's special for the people to, to hear of a dad who've had the, has has the memories that's really special.

Um, and presumably that means you've got a mother-in-law who's absolutely team breastfeeding as well. Exactly. Yeah. Which I think is special. So things you've described a really positive first feed and that, uh, and you, you've got a sense of your body working and things are feeling really good. What did that next couple of weeks bring?

[00:11:14] Danielle: Um, this is a bit, I have to try not to cry.

[00:11:16] Emma Pickett: Um, so by the way, if you cry, you are absolutely entitled to cry. And if you think, you want to pause us recording, we can do that too. Um, I know how important this stuff is and, and how this stuff affects us. So whatever you feel comfortable with,

[00:11:29] Danielle: thank you. Um, so I spent two nights in hospital when she was born because I was still on morphine, so they wouldn't let us go home.

And also I just wanted a bit of extra support with feeding because we'd done the antenatal classes of breastfeeding and things with the hospital. But you know, it's all still new. I just thought, you know, if I can stay here and someone can check, we're doing things right then. Great. Yeah, she was feeding through the night.

I had the classic first night of being a mum where you don't get any sleep and you just have them on your chest all night 'cause you're scared they're not gonna breathe and things like that went home. Um, everything seemed great. She was feeding all the time and she'd feed for long, long periods like 45 minutes to an hour sometimes.

She was definitely doing all the cluster feeding. It just, it felt like everything I was reading and everything that should be happening. And then the, uh, midwife that must have been on day five, came to do the home weigh in. And it seems to be the case with lots of women that have gone through this thing that it seems to be that day five check-in.

Is where everything changes. And Annie had lost 13% of her birth weight and we didn't really know what that meant. We were like, okay, you know, that seems like quite a lot, but we don't have anything to kind of measure it against. Yeah. And she said, anything over the 10% you need to go back to hospital. So we are then terrified and all the blood kind of drains from you and you just think, I've got to take my tiny precious newborn back into hospital.

You know, I've failed her. Something's gone horribly wrong. We thought she was fine. She'd actually been starting to get quite fussy on day four. But again, we just thought that was, you know, she'd been home a couple of days and that was normal.

[00:13:11] Emma Pickett: Um, and then, and do you mind me asking, and I'm appreciate you might not remember all the details.

Mm-hmm. But for anyone who's listening, who's trying to kind of investigate, looking back, any other flags, so were her nappies unusual? Was she pooing? What was happening with poos? Do you remember?

[00:13:23] Danielle: In those first few days, her nappies were all fine 'cause I was kind of, I was tracking everything. Um. Too much so, but yeah, her nappies were fine.

Um, and there was no other signs of dehydration or anything in her. And that was the bit that scared me and still scares me now that there was no signs of dehydration from her. Apart from them putting her on those scales to look at her. The pediatrician at the hospital, the midwife, they all said she looked fine.

Okay. So, so we thought she was fine. So she'd gone through the kind of black stools and green stools and was now on the sort of mustardy yellow. Yeah. And all that felt normal. Wet nappies all felt normal. Yeah.

[00:13:59] Emma Pickett: And that weigh in must have been a huge shock when you had no other signs that things were, were going pear shaped.

Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine how that felt emotionally for both of you. So did you have, did you actually physically go back to hospital?

[00:14:11] Danielle: Yeah, so the midwife then proceeded to take me upstairs and take my stitches out after she just told me I had to take my baby back to hospital. So that was all a bit surreal.

Um, but then we packed up a bag and took Annie and she said, pack an overnight bag. They probably won't keep you in, but just have on with you just in case. So we did. Um, we got to the hospital and they pretty much said the same thing. You know, she looks fine, we'll just do some tests. Probably won't need to stay.

And that was that. So we were feeling quite hopeful by that point, like, okay, maybe this is just, you know, a bit of a blip and they're just making sure things are fine. Then her bloods came back and they were like, she's severely dehydrated. You need to stay in. And it all kind of switched very quickly to then what are we gonna do to make sure she's okay?

The pediatrician asked if we were okay to give her formula and I said, yes, of course, you know, whatever she needs to make sure she's okay. We'll do it. But I said, but I do want to breastfeed but do whatever you need to do to, you know, get her healthy. Obviously that was the main priority. So we stayed in and they gave me a pump, the wheeled a pump into the room.

So we were then on the children's ward 'cause we couldn't go back on the maternity ward once we'd been discharged. I dunno if that's the case at all hospitals, but it was at ours.

[00:15:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean there's a lot of controversy around that. I mean, I think some people would argue that you actually should be mm-hmm.

On a maternity ward talking to midwives and people with breastfeeding training because on a children's ward it's very unlikely you'll meet somebody with breastfeeding training. Um, but you got a breastfeeding pump at least. So what happened?

[00:15:41] Danielle: I found it really strange being on the children's ward and we were put in a private room because I was with her, so obviously I had to stay in with her, of course.

But everything, 'cause it's for children, like even the toilet was really low, so I just had a C-section and couldn't get myself up and down off the toilet, you know, just little things like that. So it felt quite lonely because obviously I was in there on my own with Annie and the nurses were kind of just popping in and out to check, um, a bit.

It was very much, and my mum made this comment that it was very much that Annie was the patient, which is right, because she was the one that was dehydrated. But I wasn't the patient at all. I was just there because Annie needed me. But it felt very much like I probably also needed some care. And I think that's where I feel like I probably should have been on the maternity ward rather than the children's ward.

Because you know, even for instance, for dinner, they just gave me a cheese sandwich and I'm like, if I, now I know in hindsight as a woman trying to increase your supply of breast milk, just having a cheese sandwich for dinner probably isn't gonna do a lot.

[00:16:39] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And when you said someone wheeled through the breast pump, did someone talk to you about how to pump and what was gonna happen next or?

[00:16:45] Danielle: No. So I got shown how to turn it on and that was it. And this was probably the most traumatic part of the whole thing that my husband was still there. Annie was crying because she was hungry. They were trying to sort out a bottle for her. The nurse came in and said, shall I just take her and give her a bottle while I'm sat there with this pump that's, there's milk just dripping down me because it's not going into the pump.

And I'm crying and my husband's looking at me and Annie going, they're both crying. I don't know what to do. He gave Annie to the nurse to take her off to have a feed, and that made me a hundred times worse because then they've just taken my baby away from me. I just sat there feeling like a complete failure, which I know I've listened, you know, to your other episodes of the mums with IGT, and they've said the same about feeling like a failure.

You just feel like the one thing you're supposed to be able to do as a new mom is feed your baby. And it was the one thing I was failing at and it was just terrific. And I just remember wanting to scream because I just felt like nobody was understanding what I, why I was frustrated. There was lots of like, there, there's, and it's okay and we can do it, but I was like, I just need somebody to sit me down, show me how this pump works.

Show me how I can feed my baby and let me go home. That was all I wanted.

[00:18:04] Emma Pickett: I can just imagine, Danni, it must be just, it's just so sad to hear of that, of your baby being taken away in that moment when you were feeling so vulnerable. And what's bananas about this is obviously, yes, okay, Annie's the patient, but the treatment is your breastfeeding support.

Mm-hmm. You having someone sitting down with you, checking the latching, watching, feeding, looking at swallow patterns, looking at you, looking at your breasts, that is the treatment for Annie.

[00:18:29] Danielle: Mm-hmm. Exactly.

[00:18:29] Emma Pickett: But yeah, that is just missing. I mean, not even working on the pump properly and not even understanding how the pump works.

It's just, it's just so disjointed, isn't it? It just makes no sense at all. Um, obviously when you're in the thick of it emotionally, there's that whole extra layer. So. She's taken away, she's given formula. So presumably her weight does increase and you are able to then go home. Did, did you get anybody sitting you down and going, okay, let's work out.

Why did she lose 13%? Was there, was there any investigation around that?

[00:18:56] Danielle: There was nothing about why she'd lost the weight. Um, it was clear my milk hadn't come in and they were asking about that and it was very clear when they were talking about sensations and leaking and all this stuff. I couldn't relate to any of that.

[00:19:08] Emma Pickett: So you hadn't experienced any engorgement?

[00:19:10] Danielle: No.

[00:19:10] Emma Pickett: You hadn't experienced any sense of fullness or anything. Okay. No. And did you have any breast changes in pregnancy?

[00:19:16] Danielle: No, but nobody asked about that. Okay. Until much later. Um, I actually had the, the women, there was a lovely, lovely woman from the infant feeding team at the hospital who came down and spent about four hours with me watching two full feeds with Annie, which was great.

And it was just great to have someone there that was, you know, listening and helping. Um, and that really helped. And at this point, my nipples were bleeding. And, you know, we tried so much that everything was just horrible and painful and Annie was frustrated. Understandably, I was frustrated. We ended up staying in for two nights again, and we got to the point where I was on a triple feeding plan.

So I know you've had lots of women on that, but we had every three hours. Um, I had to breastfeed Annie on both breasts. Then we were giving her 70 mil top-ups from the very start, which felt completely counterintuitive to me because it looked like we were, you know, drowning her in milk that first night in hospital.

She threw up through her nose and it was like, you know, something from The Exorcist. And I was just in floods of tears that will traumatize me forever seeing her be sick like that. Um, and then I then had to pump every time. So they sent me home with a hospital pump, the. Um, and all the bits and stuff. Um, but still no f flanges.

No one had ever talked to me about f flanges still, I don't think at this point, a flange size.

[00:20:41] Emma Pickett: Um, okay. So the inserts that go into the pump, you mentioned you were bleeding, so obviously something is going on with positioning. Mm-hmm. That lovely lady that was you, with you for four hours. Did she help you resolve what was happening with the positioning?

[00:20:52] Danielle: Yes. So we managed to get that sorted. I think the thing that frustrated my husband was that someone from the infant feeding team had been to see us before we were discharged the first time from hospital. And he said, how do we know she's swallowing? That was all he wanted to know was how do we know she's swallowing?

Okay? And they were just like, oh, you'll know. And obviously she wasn't swallowing. She was just suckling from me for five days and that was the problem. And not swallowing,

[00:21:17] Emma Pickett: but the nappies were okay. Danni to be Sherlock Holmes a bit here. Mm-hmm. If the nappies were okay and her poo was changing, she was getting something from you.

Yes. And, and it and the business about your milk not coming in, that also doesn't really fit with your nappies. The nappies being Okay. So, so I, I mean, I don't mean to contradict messages you've been given already, but just kind of thinking it through. It doesn't, it's not always a black and white. Your milk's coming in or your milk's not coming in.

Something must have been transitioning otherwise, you know, she would've probably lost even more than 13% and you would've seen dry nappies and you wouldn't have seen the poos going to that mustardy yellow color. But as you've already described, it sounds as though something's going on with your milk supply.

[00:21:55] Danielle: Yeah.

[00:21:55] Emma Pickett: When was the first time that somebody talked to you about IGT or, or primary milk supply issues? When was the first time you thought, hang on, maybe this isn't my fault. Maybe this is not that it's ever anyone's fault. 'cause even if it is something about secondary issues, it's about lack of information or lack of supply.

But when was the first time that someone talked to you about, about your body and how did that feel?

[00:22:16] Danielle: Um, so I got a lot of help from the infant feeding team at the hospital and from the community breastfeeding support group. But things like IGT and primary low milk supply weren't even mentioned, I'd say for at least a month.

So I was triple feeding for, well, I think in total we were triple feeding for about six weeks, if not longer even, possibly. And it wasn't until I kept saying to them, you know, I'm, I'm pumping, I'm power pumping, I'm doing all these things. And everyone kept saying, just keep pumping. It will, you know, it will increase, it will happen.

And everyone says, you know, pumpings not a representation of what your breasts are producing and what she's getting from you, which of course is true, but when I was seeing no increase in the pumping, no matter what I was doing, I also probably wasn't looking after myself properly at that time either, because, you know, doing it every three hours was horrific.

It was by the time we were done, we'd have about an hour between feeds before we'd have to start the whole rig roll again. So I kept pushing and saying to people, this isn't working. Something doesn't feel right. And it took probably about a month of me saying that to people before then.

[00:23:29] Emma Pickett: Gosh, Danielle, it's that they sent out.

That's such a long time.

[00:23:33] Danielle: Well, yeah. And you know, now you're like, oh, it was just a month. But actually when I'm in it, it was horrific. And a month of triple feeding and a month of pumping every three hours is absolutely horrendous. I mean, that is just such a draining thing for anyone to experience.

[00:23:49] Emma Pickett: And sadly, your story really highlights what's happening in the UK is that we meet them, the loveliest peer supporters, the loveliest midwives, but if we don't have a specialist pathway, a, an actual way of getting to a specialist, all you get is the encouragement and the come on, and, and, you know, 90% of people can do it and 95% of people can do it.

It's just to keep going. There's nobody saying, oh, hang on, let's look at her pumping output. Let's look at Annie's weight gain. Hmm. There's something going on here. Let's, let's investigate that ideally should have been happening so much sooner than a month. Mm-hmm. You're meeting all these lovely people, giving you encouraging words.

But sometimes that's even all worse actually, was because everyone's implying that there's a mystery and you, no one is helping you work out what's happening.

[00:24:33] Danielle: And all I felt was it was me not trying hard enough was the message I was getting because everyone kept saying, oh, just keep pumping. It was like the motto I just felt I can't possibly pump anymore.

But you know, any hour of the day that she wasn't breastfeeding, I felt I had to be pumping because it felt like I wasn't doing enough.

[00:24:52] Emma Pickett: So were you were using a hospital grade pump the first month, so it wasn't like it was the pump quality?

[00:24:55] Danielle: No. So for the first month, yes. And then I had to give that back and so then I bought a wearable pump.

But even that, doing the research on which one to buy and things just, yeah. And I didn't know about things like the fridge hack for pumping. So we were literally cleaning the pump parts every single time, every three hours. My husband said to me on numerous occasions, are you sure you want to continue doing this?

Because all he could see was how broken I was. And he was, 'cause he also wasn't sleeping or you know, getting, yeah, the help. He only had two weeks of paternity leave, so he was back at work as well when we were still deep in the throes of this. That's another thing, isn't it? So pumpings not working. Maybe I just haven't found the right flange.

I haven't found the right flange size. I'm not doing the right technique.

[00:25:40] Emma Pickett: Did you get a chance to get the flange size that was right for you? How did that journey go?

[00:25:44] Danielle: Yeah, so I had the breastfeeding support group in the community when I couldn't drive to them and my husband went back to work, they then came to the house, which was great and she measured my nipples there and it actually was able to get me the correct.

Tell me which was the correct flange size? Um, okay. Because there was even conflicting information around that online. Everything I read or everything anyone said just seemed to be conflicting and contradicting. And obviously I was deep in baby blues and my brain was not, and I'd like to think I'm quite an intelligent person, but trying to decipher all of this information postpartum was really difficult.

[00:26:21] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean the, the flange conversation is only really happening in the last kind of two or three years, so you'll still find companies that don't recognize the latest research and, and certainly articles that don't recognize it. And, you know, everyone gets given the 24 millimeter as standard when mm-hmm.

Lots of people need much smaller than that. Do you remember what size you ended up being and, and did that make a difference?

[00:26:42] Danielle: Yeah, I'm a 17 millimeter. I'm still pumping. Um, and it, uh, do you know, I don't know now. I'm sure it did make a difference. It was definitely more comfortable, um, in terms of my output.

I don't know if it necessarily did. I'm sure it was probably a combination of things. Um, but it took, they then kind of escalated me to like the head of the breastfeeding support group in our area, um, who is a qualified lactation consultant who's the only one out of the, the group, um, who is, and she was the first woman or the first person that helped me that was able to actually look at my breasts and say.

I think you have hyperplasia or insufficient glandular tissue. And I was like, oh, okay. And you know, what does that mean? And she, she was then the person that asked about if my breast changed during pregnancy, which they didn't. She then asked about me going through puberty, about my hormones, about my history of my breasts, if I had any other kind of hormone issues and things, which I do have.

And she was able to then, I know you can't kind of officially diagnose IGT, but for me, I kind of take it as the diagnosis of IGT at that point. Okay. Which was the turning point.

[00:28:00] Emma Pickett: I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got the story of Jesse's Milkies, which is a picture book from two to six year olds that really tells the story of little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways.

Maybe there'll be a new baby sister. Maybe his mom will need to practice parenthood weaning. Maybe he will have a self weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we are there to support them through all of them.

And also we sometimes have needs to also on endings, we have supporting the transition from breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child. There are also chapters on different individual situations like weaning an older child when there's still a baby, feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation.

Then we have supporting breastfeeding past the first six months and beyond. That's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond. What are the common challenges and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding.

Then we have the breast book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14 year olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is. I talk about brass. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives.

So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley Press website. That's uk.jkp.com. Use the code mm pe 10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful.

It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you.

For anyone who is listening, IGT stands for insufficient glandular tissue. Mm-hmm. And some people are not happy about that term. Are you comfortable with me saying IGT? Does that feel okay?

[00:30:15] Danielle: Oh, completely. Because for me that is what's, it's lacking. That is what's missing in my breasts is there isn't enough glandular tissue, so it's nice to have a name for it.

[00:30:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And I haven't seen your breasts, even though we're looking at each other right now. Um, but for anyone who's listening IGT presents in different ways.

It might be that you have a tubular breast, um, where with a bulging areola and any breast tissue that's there kind of falls into the areola. Um, so you often have quite a large areola compared to the rest of the breast size. Um, you might have extreme asymmetry, so one breast might be tubular, the other one not.

You might just have small breasts or breasts that appear to have, you know, one quadrant that's fuller than another. Um, wide spacing as a, as a marker as well. So wide spacing between breasts. But actually probably the way to really diagnose is to have decent breastfeeding support to do and have, you know, have someone looking at what's happening with your breastfeeding.

You talked about your hormonal history, do you mind me asking, do you have PCOS? Is that part of your history?

[00:31:14] Danielle: So I don't, I've never had like an official diagnosis of it. I've been tested for it a couple of times, but since doing more investigations kind of postpartum, we think I probably do have it. It just presents differently.

But we think it could all be part of the kind of same package. Um, one thing that also that lactation consultant did, she was called Emma as well. Um, and she got me to feel my breasts and feel the difference between the breast tissue, like the fatty tissue and the glandular tissue, which was really interesting to me 'cause I'm that kind of person that I like to know what's happening and why it's happening and things like that.

So for her to literally get me to feel the difference in my breasts was really fascinating for me. I found the whole thing of pregnancy and birth fascinating and how my body changed. So it's just kind of another layer to that.

[00:32:05] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Can I just ask you a bit more about that conversation? So. So some lactation consultants are even reluctant to say what she said.

I mean, three cheers for her. I've had this conversation a few times with parents as well, and I think it's, it's so important that we use all our professional skills and all our professional knowledge and we say, listen, I can't diagnose, but I want to share with you something I'm observing you. You have a right to that information and I'm really sorry it took that long for you to find the right person who was able to do that for you.

When you had that conversation, I mean it was obviously, you know, five months ago now, but I'm guessing it's very fresh in your mind, did it feel a relief? Did it feel infuriating because you're so angry at Take had taken that long? Um, did it feel hopeless? What kind of emotions were running through your mind?

[00:32:55] Danielle: My initial feeling, I just remember thinking, thank God it is not for lack of trying, because I just felt like I tried so hard over, you know, those five, six weeks. That I couldn't physically have done anymore if I possibly tried. And it was nice to just know that it wasn't for lack of trying, that no matter what I would've done, I couldn't have increased my supply.

You know, I was never gonna be able to exclusively breastfeed and no matter what I did, and it just felt really nice to have that validated, that there was actually a tangible reason why my baby wasn't able to just breastfeed that it wasn't just because I didn't pump enough or I wasn't eating the right thing, so I didn't take enough fenugreek or you know, whatever it was.

I tried everything by this point, spent a fortune. Um, so it was just nice to have an answer. And then came the frustration that someone hadn't spotted this earlier, then came the crying and the kind of grieving of that and accepting, you know, there was a, a phrase that someone used on your podcast about that grief and relief.

And it totally was, when I listened to that episode, I really. Connected with that because I did, I felt really, really sad then that I would never be able to exclusively breastfeed and no matter what I did. So then it started a whole process then of accepting that our life was always gonna be combi feeding or formula feeding or whatever it then went on to be.

So yeah, I definitely went through kind of all the stages of grief, I would say. And my husband definitely kind of had to sit there and let me go through them. 

[00:34:30] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah, I can understand. Thank you for describing that so vividly, some people in your situation go down the medication route. Is that something that someone talked to you about or you explored?

[00:34:40] Danielle: Yes. So Anna, who was the lactation consultant who I saw, who was like the NHS one, the the council one, she then signposted me to Dr. Silberstein. So she'd mentioned domperidone to me and I had had that mentioned to me previously about low milk supply when I was struggling to increase my supply. And I'd spoken to my GP about it and they'd said, point blank.

No, they do not prescribe it for that use. Um, 'cause it's an off license use of it, um, that they don't do that in my area. And she just said, I'm really sorry, but I can't. So I already knew that that wasn't an option from my gp. 

[00:35:15] Emma Pickett: Okay. So then, um, Emma then kindly suggested Dr. Silberstein, who is a lactation consultant, but also a gp, um, who was able to prescribe it.

[00:35:26] Danielle: So I had a consultation with her when Annie was about six weeks old. 

[00:35:29] Emma Pickett: She's a medical doctor. Sorry to correct you. She's actually currently not working as a gp. She's a medical doctor and, and also a lactation specialist. Mm-hmm. So she's based North London, just north of London and has helped so many people with their breastfeeding journeys.

So Sharon Silberstein, I'll make sure I put her link in in the show notes. Um, and prescribing Domperidone is one thing she can do, but she does lots of other things as well. So, sorry to interrupt you. Um. But, so you had an online consultation with, with Dr. Silberstein. Mm-hmm. And obviously she takes your history and she hears all the things that you know have been going on with you, your breastfeeding journey.

And for anyone who doesn't know, there are some side effects with Domperidone. For someone who's fresh to this topic, can you just talk us through the kind of things that you have to think about before you start taking domperidone? 

[00:36:16] Danielle: Yes. So yes, I had that online consultation, like you said, because obviously I live quite far away from, um, Dr. Silverstein. And she looked at my breasts and asked all my history and kind of 

repeated everything that had already happened with Artian consultant so that, you know, she could check for herself. She said, I think she made a comment, something like, I had textbook, I gt boobs. Um, okay. Which was also quite nice to hear that, you know, it kind of fit the mold.

And we discussed, you know, whether I'd triple done triple feeding and the pumping and how that all works. And then she said, was I interested in domperidone? So I said, I'm interested in anything that's gonna help. But yeah, you have to. Really think about it's, it's not a short term solution. It's something that you have to, you know, they are just tablets, but you can't just come off them when you feel like it.

You have to do, um, a weaning process to come off them. And that's something that I've had difficulties with, which, you know, I can talk to you about in a moment. But part of it was, um, she needed to know my health history, know if I had any kind of mental health issues, um, if I had any heart problems, things like that, that can be risks if you go onto domperidone.

[00:37:24] Emma Pickett: So she did a really thorough unit investigation and everything before prescribing it for me. Mm-hmm. And then we talked a lot about the dosage and things and what I wanted to get out of it. And it, it was a really fully rounded kind of consultation. It wasn't just, oh, you wanna try Domperidone, here you go.

[00:37:40] Danielle: I really felt like I was taking care of as well, you know, that she's just a, a doctor and not just, you know, a lactation consultant. I felt the full package of it all. 

[00:37:48] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So you started taking it and do you feel it helped? 

[00:37:51] Danielle: Yes. So I started on nine tablets a day and noticed a slight increase, but not a lot.

And then went up to the maximum 12 tablets a day. I'm not sure if that's the maximum kind of in the UK or in general. And there definitely was an increase, certainly nowhere near enough that I will ever be able to exclusively breastfeed, but enough that it actually felt that pumping was worthwhile when I did it.

[00:38:15] Emma Pickett: Um, okay. Just to say about the dosage is, it's down to, it's in, it's about the doctor relationship and the doctor discretion. So in some parts of the world there will be higher doses and others, obviously she, you know, as a doctor, she's taking liability and, and responsibility having taken on your history.

So usually in, if someone's getting domperidone from a gp, if that they are in an area where that's possible, it won't be as high dose as that. It was because you're under the care of, of Sharon, that you were able to get that slightly higher dose. And pumping. You noticed the obvious change. It really felt like it was, it was making a difference.

Even now, even though you're using the wearable pump at this point. Mm-hmm. And not using the hospital grade pump, which is, which is great news. 

[00:38:55] Danielle: And I leaked for the first time. I remember the first time I woke up and there was a wet patch in the bed. Um, and I know for lots of women, it's a real annoyance when they leak.

And I absolutely love it still. I still think it's just, it's annoying sometimes. Don't get me wrong, but when it happens, I just think, wow. Like there's enough milk for it to leak. 

[00:39:17] Emma Pickett: Bless. So how long did you take Domperidone? 

I'm still on it. So 

[00:39:20] Danielle: I have been on it now since Annie was about six, seven weeks old.

Um, and she's now six months old. So I was on that increased dosage for a while, I can't remember how long. And then started to wean off it because I felt like, you know, we'd maximized what I could get from it and we could then start weaning off. I started weaning. One tablet every seven days and then one tablet every five days because it felt fine.

Then I started to notice I wasn't sleeping, so I was having quite a lot of insomnia, quite like wide awake at night. And by this point, I'll say it quietly for the other months, but Annie was sleeping through the night. Um, so it was kind of counterintuitive that I was wide awake in the middle of the night and she wasn't at this point.

And I also was having really vivid dreams, like quite horrible vivid dreams and quite a lot of, um, kind of intrusive thoughts and anxiety and stuff was happening. 

[00:40:16] Emma Pickett: No, I'm so sorry to hear that. And thank you. It took about three weeks though, and it was actually my mom who noticed, um, and said, wasn't your doctor say that that could be a side effect of coming off the tablets too quickly?

[00:40:28] Danielle: I was like, oh, yeah. So it did take, you know, a little bit for me to notice. So then I had another call with um, Sharon, and she said, right, yes, that sounds like you know, you're coming off it too quickly. And it's usually if you have a history of mental health problems. So I have got a history of having, you know, some anxiety issues and things before.

Um, so it doesn't happen to everybody. Um, so what we did was we put my dosage back up to when I felt stable and I've now been on that dosage again for about five, six weeks, I think, to get rid of any of those side effects. Then what we will do is reduce it more slowly, so maybe one tablet every two weeks.

Okay. Um, so whereas I thought I'd be all done and dusted by Christmas and fully off it, it's not been the case, but obviously I'd much rather slow down and do it properly. I also had the, the side effect when I was on it, of, especially when I was on the, the highest dose of having a really high appetite and eating a lot and I've put quite a bit of weight on, um, which is something that's just worth bearing in mind as well if mums are considering going on it.

[00:41:30] Emma Pickett: Okay. Thank you so much for sharing that in detail. So you've, you've obviously come to your, your family's home and Uganda and you've. Have you had to get more dosage while you're out there or have you just been able to travel with all the medication from the uk 

[00:41:44] Danielle: I was able to travel with it, so luckily I, um, explained everything to Sharon before I came and she gave me a prescription for enough that I could bring out with me and to cover it until I get home.

[00:41:53] Emma Pickett: Okay. So tell us about what a day of feeding Annie looks like right now. How do you organize everything? When are you pumping, when are you bottle feeding? What does the day look like? 

[00:42:03] Danielle: She generally has about five feeds in the day on average. Um, it's been slightly more when we've been out in Uganda 'cause she seems to be having less but more often, um, with the heat.

But generally it's five a day. And what we tend to do is she wakes up in the morning, she breastfeeds and then she has the bottle. Um, and she is mostly formula fed now. I've come to terms with that, that it's not top-ups anymore. It's very much, she is mostly formula fed. She has almost a full supply of formula, so she generally has about 600 to 700 milliliters of formula a.

And then throughout the day she has a bottle preference now, which I know is really common around this age. Um, and I spoke to, um, Dr. Silverstein about it to say, you know, she won't breastfeed. I keep putting her on and she just won't breastfeed from me. What do I do? So now what I do is we breastfeed her and she's not hungry, which probably sounds a little strange to some no listening.

[00:42:58] Emma Pickett: It's a very sensible, it's a very sensible approach. 'cause you want to keep that, that positive association, don't you? And that yeah. Make feeds relaxing and positive. Absolutely. The way to go.

[00:43:07] Danielle: So if she's already kind of, if she's hungry and we can see, she's definitely hungry. It's straight to the bottle.

We don't even mess about with the breastfeeding. And then what I'll do is kind of wait half an hour, an hour and then try on the breast afterwards. If I catch it before and she's happy, then I breastfeed her first before she has the bottles during the day and then at night she breastfeeds really well.

Morning and night are the best times for breastfeeding. Definitely. Um, and then she has a bottle of, and goes to sleep on the bottle. Usually she's never really gone to sleep on the breast, um, which I feel a little bit sad about sometimes, but also it makes it easier in some ways that she doesn't need to rely on me to go to sleep, I guess.

But yeah, so she generally breastfeeds five times a day and has a bottle five times a day. Um, and then pumping wise, I don't pump every day anymore, thank God for me, it's, I've got I think a lot of P-T-S-D-I think I would say, around pumping. Um, I now only pump if I need to, so if she's away from me for, you know, a few hours and I feel like all, she probably would've had a feeding this time, then I'll pump, or when we were flying over here, she was really obviously distracted and didn't want to breastfeed on the plane and things, so then I was pumping while we were traveling.

So I use it now as I very much see it as a means to an end to maintain my supply rather than something I have to do.

[00:44:28] Emma Pickett: Okay. And how is your sleep right at the moment when you changed back to your previous dosage? Did your sleep get better? Are you okay?

[00:44:34] Danielle: Yes. In terms of the intrusive thoughts and things, yes, it did take a couple of weeks, um, to settle again, but yeah, my sleep is generally better and yeah, those, I still have the, the kind of normal mum intrusive thoughts, which I think every mom has.

But um, yeah, it's much, much better. Thank you. Than it was.

[00:44:50] Emma Pickett: Okay. Nothing that's worrying you. Can I just say one really boring thing? She's taking 600 to 700 mils of formula. That's not a full formula fed baby at this age. Um, she's definitely getting milk from you. A six month old who, who's exclusively formula fed gets more formula than that.

Okay. So I, I, I want you to know that she's getting milk from you, but also even if she wasn't, that breastfeeding is really valuable, that breastfeeding has, you know, even if it's a small amount of milk, we could sit here for an hour and talk about all the immunological benefits, all the health benefits, which are inconsiderable.

Can I just ask you about when you're breastfeeding her, what do you think your future's gonna be? What, do you have any particular goals in mind? What are you thinking you're gonna do with your breastfeeding?

[00:45:35] Danielle: Um, so I'm really proud of myself for getting to six months. I think if you'd have asked me that five months ago, that might have seemed impossible.

Um, I actually love breastfeeding her. Um, it took a while to get to that point, but I love doing it now. I go back to work in a couple of months when she's eight months old, so I don't know what that's going to look like. Ideally, what I would like to happen is if I could still keep the morning and night feeds and my body could kind of adapt to that.

My worry is though that my supply might dip too much to be able to do that. I dunno, it's gonna be a bit of trial and error. Yeah.

[00:46:11] Emma Pickett: You're a teacher, aren't you? Yes. You're a secondary school teacher, so, so anyone who's not from a teaching background. Pumping during the day as a teacher is a blooming difficult ask.

I think it's one of the jobs where it's super challenging. I mean, traffic wardens and a few other jobs. You know, it's, it's, it's hard to imagine how you fit that in.

[00:46:29] Danielle: Yeah, I know people are, oh, legally they have to let you do, and it's like, it's not that work wouldn't let me do it. Of course they would.

They'd be really supportive. It's just finding the time. I just don't know. I see.

[00:46:37] Emma Pickett: In the uk they don't legally have to let you Oh, it's not the law. It's not the law In the uk, um, we don't have a legal right to express milk at work in the uk. We wanna, there's lots and lots of countries that do. Mm-hmm.

We're one of the ones that don't. So it's a recommendation. Um, it's an acas recommendation. It's a health and safety executive recommendation. Um, but it's not actually a legal Right. So we weirdly, if you're a breastfeeding mom, the law says we have a right to rest inad. But we don't actually have a right to to expressing breaks.

Interesting. But very few employers, very few employers don't acknowledge that it's, it's good practice for a ton of different reasons. And we have got a bit of case law, so some case law involving some people working on an airline and few other bits and pieces. But it's not actually explicitly written in law.

But you should find that you should, you know, someone should support you even if it's just five minutes and you, or you're hiding in a stock cupboard somewhere. Yeah. But you've got levels or fight me for that. Well, well you, wearable pun, you might be able to walk around with it. Who knows what's wrong.

[00:47:39] Danielle: I think she's got, she's got, and because I teach secondary as well, it might be a good teaching opportunity.

I do think that breastfeeding should be on the PSHE curriculum. It's something that I definitely didn't know enough about beforehand.

[00:47:50] Emma Pickett: Yeah, no, that's that, absolutely. I think that is so important. So I want to ask you the question about being in Uganda where everyone is breastfeeding, the world is breastfeeding, the family breastfeeds.

Um, we just heard someone out on the street in a minute ago, and I dunno if it's the mic picked it up. How has your, your family reacted to your journey? Do you have, I mean, presumably IGT isn't something that they necessarily talk a lot about or know a lot about. How's that side of things gone?

[00:48:16] Danielle: So I, I did have a lot of anxiety around how are we gonna feed her when we were here because of that kind of perception from people, you know, it, it is strange 'cause it's kind of the opposite.

In the UK I almost feel like people get judged for breastfeeding. You know, it's like you get your breasts out in public and people have something to say about it. Whereas here it's kind of the opposite. It's if you get a bottle out and start bottle feeding, it's judged the other way. Um, and I only know one of my friends who has bottle fed, um, well can be fed the same as we are, um, in Uganda or my other friends were exclusively breastfeeding, so I didn't even have people I could ask about kind of bottle feeding in the same way.

My family have been really, really supportive. And my husband is obviously, you know, they've known about the journey the whole way through, um, right from the beginning with Annie and what we've had to do. But it's, it's been tricky. Even just things like cleaning and sterilizing the bottles is a little bit more complicated than doing it at home.

You know, just making sure we have access to, you know, the water we need and things like that, and the space to clean things. Also, we use ready made formula mostly at home 'cause it's just easier to get the bottles and use those when we're out and about. You can't buy that here or not that we know of. So we've had to get used to making formula with the powder and the hot water and stuff, which I know is the norm for most people.

But for us it was another thing we had to get our head around. Yeah. Um, and we actually brought a suitcase full of powder with us because I was just worried that we wouldn't get the same powder here. And Annie does generally drink whatever we give her. We're quite lucky with that, but I didn't want to risk, you know, a different location.

Things are different. I thought let's keep the milk the same. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, so even that, like just packing a whole suitcase full of milk was quite ridiculous in hindsight. But the things that you have to do, so we've managed to do quite well and um, like my husband is amazing and he washes all the bottles and sterilizes the bottles.

Um, and pretty much, you know, he kind of takes ownership of the bottle feeding and I do the breastfeeding. That's kind of been how we've split it from day one, which is great, but it has been definitely more challenging. And I do definitely still feel every time I pull a bottle out here that I am being judged slightly.

I, I'm sure it's all in my head and not actually coming from anybody, but I can't help but feel that sometimes that there's just that, why is she not breastfeeding? Um, or we, you know, when we go to, when we're with my mother-in-law and she's breastfeeding and she's getting frustrated on the. They're like, oh, she's getting frustrated, isn't she?

And I'm like, yes, I'm aware of the fact that she's getting frustrated and so am I. And you stating it isn't very helpful, but obviously she's just saying it. She's not, you know, she doesn't mean anything about it. Um, but that can be quite triggering for me rather than anything else. It's not her being horrible, it's just, it's a trigger for me.

[00:51:08] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah. I understand. Um, and she's about to start solids. Um, yes. Solids are, are happening. How, how does that feel adding in solids to everything? Does that make you feel a bit more vulnerable in terms of what's gonna happen with the breastfeeding and it's an unknown? Or does that just feel an exciting part of the next journey?

[00:51:25] Danielle: It's been a bit of both. There's definitely been excitement for it because, you know, it's the next thing, but it's more kind of the overwhelm of, oh gosh, we're sorting bottles and we're doing all of these things and now we're gonna have to prepare food and do all this. It is like another thing to include in the day of feeding Annie.

Um, I haven't really been as worried about it affecting my milk supply because obviously she's not really gonna get a lot of nutrition from it yet, so it'll take a while for her to really get any nutrition from it. Um, but we've actually started it since we've been here, so she, um, my friend made a watermelon cake for her on her six months and she like dove headfirst into that and was loving it.

And last night she had a bit of steak and was sucking on that. And so we're trying to do it over here with the family so that they get to have a first with her 'cause they won't get many firsts. So we're trying to do a lot of the, the first things we can while we're here, which is nice. Yeah. Fantastic.

[00:52:23] Emma Pickett: Okay, so as we kind of begin to wrap up, I'd just love to hear a bit more about any resources that you found helpful. So once Emma had said to you about IGT, did you then. Find any communities. Did you find any information that helped you? What would you recommend to anyone who's beginning this journey? 

[00:52:42] Danielle: So, um, Emma sent me the Facebook group, which I know you've talked about before on this podcast.

Um, I think it's like IGT, low Milk Supply Facebook group. Um, I haven't really posted on it or anything, but it was, there's, um, a massive bank of resources in there that was really great to kind of just read through. And also, it was the first time I'd ever seen boobs that looked like mine, which was just really nice and validating.

I also was sign posted to your podcast, which was how I then got in touch with you. So I listened to, um, it was Hannah's episode first, I think, and I listened to Katie's episode who both have I gt. Um, I also read, I've read the Finding Sufficiency book, which I really liked. Um, and also the, um. My breastfeeding, grief and trauma matter, I think it's called.

That was really powerful. Yeah. Amy Brown for me. Amy Brown. Yeah. Yeah. That one was really powerful for me in kind of accepting that I have IGT and that my breastfeeding journey didn't look like what I was expecting, but it was okay. Um, I cried quite a lot reading that book, but it was quite cathartic.

[00:53:47] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. Yeah, that's a good list. So Finding Sufficiencies is an old book, but it's, it's a classic and there's some really good stuff in there. So we'll make sure we link to that in the show notes and we'll link to Amy Brown's book as well. 

[00:53:59] Danielle: Yeah. There's also, um, a WhatsApp group. I think it's Caoimhe's WhatsApp Group.

[00:54:03] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Caoimhe Whelan. Yes. Whelan. Yeah. So, so I did an episode with her when we talked a little bit about, um, primary milk supply issues. So she's fantastic when it comes to anything to do with primary milk supply. So yeah. Caoimhe Whelan, W-H-E-L-A-N. Um, we'll make sure people know about her. She also does support, and that's the WhatsApp group.

Did you actually go to one of those sessions? 

[00:54:26] Danielle: No, the sessions haven't, didn't work out. But I'm in the WhatsApp group, um, which is nice. It's just nice to not feel alone. I think it's, I think it was on Caoimhe's podcast with you on the episode where she said, you know, they reckon it's as prevalent as tongue tie, but nobody ever talks about it.

And it was just that realization that, oh, I'm not the only person that has this, there isn't something wrong with me. It's just something that some women have. And actually, I now talk about it all the time, and I think my friends are sick of hearing about my boobs, but I'm just, for me it's now like an, an awareness thing.

The only kind of downside to it is I feel like it's kind of taken over my journey. Some motherhood, I think. Because I'm a bit like, like that. I like to throw myself into something and this is kind of the thing I've thrown myself into because I wanted to learn more about it and, you know, tell people about it and raise awareness.

But I do think it has overshadowed my journey. It's becoming a mum a little bit that perhaps I've not quite been able to just enjoy Annie and enjoy being a mom because this what I feel has been a huge thing has kind of happened. Um, yeah. So that would be the only kind of downside. 

[00:55:42] Emma Pickett: No, that's a big downside.

I'm just thinking of a parallel universe where you met a midwife in pregnancy who said, oh, I've looked at your breasts, I've heard your history. I think this might be your story. Let's talk about the, in the very early days about how we get breastfeeding maximized. Um, let's talk about, you know, medication in the early days.

Let's talk about the right pumping. Do you think that would've changed things? Do you think it was the, the, the waiting for a month, the lack of knowledge, the, the sense of frustration that made it tough? If you'd known all this stuff in pregnancy and had the right support from the very beginning, is that the ideal, do you think?

[00:56:17] Danielle: Yes, but then I have asked myself a few times would I have persisted? You know, would I have persevered with breastfeeding if I'd have known what I know now? And honestly, I dunno if I would've done, you know, if I'd have known it was gonna be tricky and I'd have known, I could never get a full supply. I think I possibly would've just gone onto formula fully from day one.

Whereas actually going through what I've been through and having to be so kind of tenacious and stubborn, I think it's made me really grateful for the breastfeeding that I do have. Not that I would ever want anyone to go through what we went through. And I wish, I wish it had happened sooner and I'd got the answers sooner.

But I think having a little bit of the struggle is what has made me. Combi feeding and the relationship that we now have with breastfeeding and for, you know, if we go on to have more babies, I would like to look at combi feeding from day one. And I wish that had been something that had been talked about because I didn't really know that was an option.

Yeah, I think that's the main thing that I wish, I just feel sorry for me, you know, as a new mom that didn't get to enjoy being a new mom and have all the cuddles and lie in bed and do all the nice things you kind of wanna do in the newborn bubble, because I was just so fixated on increasing my milk supply, which wasn't gonna happen, and you were waiting for some goal to be reached.

[00:57:40] Emma Pickett: You had this sort of aspiration of exclusive breastfeeding, like that was the holy grail. Mm-hmm. And that was never on the cards. And, and the whole journey you go through and saying goodbye to that goal and it's just. There's a heck of a lot going on for you there. 

[00:57:53] Danielle: Yeah. And I'm really grateful to a lot of the support.

You know, we had, we've had amazing support from people and I'm really grateful for that. I just wish that the people who'd supported us were more educated and informed on IGT because I think that was the, that was the piece that was missing. It wasn't for lack of, they had really big hearts and were being really great and supportive.

They just weren't clued up on what my issue was. Yeah. So I think that's kind of the drum I'd like to beat on the, as we kind of wrap this up, it's just, I wish more people knew about it. 

[00:58:26] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And it's not gonna be social media where necessarily you'll get the information about IGT because most of the platforms won't let you see breasts, pictures of breasts.

Um, so it's actually interesting to hear that Facebook group does have some files with images because for, for many years you wouldn't be able to see those files on Facebook and, and certainly on Instagram you won't be able to see those images. So if somebody is a breastfeeding supporter. You have to go out and look for those pictures.

You might have to look for books, you might have to look at specialist websites and, and bits of research. You're gonna have to go out and find that information so you know what you're looking for. And, and even if you're a peer supporter and you're thinking, oh, this is outside my remit, you won't notice to signpost if you don't know sort of what we're talking about here.

So as a peer supporter, I think of absolutely and naturally people are really worried about being out, going outside their remit and staying within their role. But that doesn't mean you can't educate yourself, and that doesn't mean you can't go out there and, and make an effort to learn a bit more about this.

Because if you've got that sneaking suspicion, it's gonna be up to you to signpost somebody. And if you don't have that information, you'll spend a month telling someone to try a bit harder. And, and, you know, and it doesn't always, not everyone's got that determination that you have and, and the support that you have.

[00:59:38] Danielle: Well, I still question my gut instinct. I think that was the biggest thing it took away from us, like our parental instinct for a long time. And I, I still question my gut instinct quite often. And ask, you know, lactation consultants and things, questions that are really quite common sense and obvious. But just because I second guess everything because of our experience right at the beginning.

Yeah. So I think, yeah, if people did have that knowledge, it would make a big difference in that regard. 

[01:00:04] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Thank you. Danielle, is there anything we haven't talked about that you want to make sure we mention? 

[01:00:09] Danielle: I don't think so. I think for me it was just, it is really tricky and I think for me, a big part of it was obviously mine and my husband's relationship through it.

You know, there were quite a few times he said, let's just go onto formula, because he just wanted to protect me and you know, look after my wellbeing. He, and he thought if we just went out to formula, that would be easier. But actually that connection and he, he now understands it and is fully supportive of it.

But that feeling and that, like I said, we call that feral instinct to want to breastfeed is really real. And if you want to do it, if you are a woman that's, you know, in that situation now and you're struggling. That's fine. You know, that's really valid to feel like that and it's okay to keep pushing. If you want to breastfeed, do whatever you can.

If you don't want to breastfeed, that's absolutely fine as well. You know, I'm all pro-choice, but I'm really glad that I persisted in pushing for wanting to breastfeed, even though it felt like it was the silly thing to do at times. And the counterintuitive thing to do, actually, I'm really glad 'cause now we're in a really good place with it.

And I know the other women that you've spoken to with I gt have had much longer breastfeeding journeys than I've had so far. And they also are really grateful that they've now had that journey. So I think if it's something that's important to you, then keep pushing for it. You don't have to stop doing it if you don't want to.

Yeah, absolutely. And and the people that love you and support you, when they say, oh, you don't have to do this. You know that they're coming from a good place, of course, but it's actually really important to explain to them. Why it matters and why it's important and, and make sure they understand as well and, and communicate to them.

[01:01:47] Emma Pickett: Thank you so much for your time today, Daniella. I really, really appreciate it and very best of luck with solids and coming back, back to the England and starting work and, and let me know how things get on 'cause I'd love to hear how your journey ends when it eventually does. 

[01:02:00] Danielle: Thank you. I will do.

[01:02:06] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.