Breastfeeding a 5 year old with Natalie and Dana

I’ve got two amazing mums for you this week in a bumper episode about feeding five year olds.

Natalie, in Cornwall, breastfeeds her 5-year-old daughter Georgia mainly at bedtime (and occasionally in the morning or when ill), and describes how continuing breastfeeding helped with starting school, bedtime regulation, co-sleeping, and meeting Georgia’s high attachment needs. She discusses societal pressure, comments Georgia received from her classmates, her own feelings about reclaiming her body (supported by returning to exercise), and managing mixed reactions from family and professionals while staying confident in her choices. 

Dana, originally from the Czech Republic and living in Cambridgeshire, breastfeeds her 5-year-old son Alex every couple of days (around her evening work schedule) and tandem feeds him with her 3-year-old daughter River. She shares how tandem feeding worked after River’s birth, how feeds fit around school and very early bedtimes, and how breastfeeding has been largely straightforward for her, supported by family.

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and open you at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. As you'll have seen from the title, we're talking about breastfeeding five year olds today, and I'm gonna be having two separate conversations with two moms, breastfeeding their five year olds. That's gonna be Dana, who is in Cambridgeshire with her son, Alex, and Natalie, who's in Cornwall with her daughter Georgia.

So I'm gonna be talking to Natalie now. Natalie, thank you very much for joining me. Tell me about your family. 

[00:01:11] Natalie: So I have a daughter, Georgia, she's five, and a son Indy, who's seven, and Georgia is breastfeeding, indie, finished breastfeeding when he was two, and obviously my husband Bill. Um, yeah, and we live in New Cornwall.

[00:01:27] Emma Pickett: Cool. And you mentioned that Indie short for Indiana. Great name by the way. Yeah. Um, indie stopped breastfeeding when he was two. Um, we're obviously gonna be focusing on George's journey today, but tell me a little bit about Indy's journey. Was that a, an ending that you led or was that an ending that he led?

[00:01:44] Natalie: I guess it was led by me, but it felt, it felt, it was led by me primarily because I was quite heavily pregnant with my daughter and I just found that. That breastfeed it, it was hurting a lot and I wasn't enjoying it, and he didn't seem that interested anymore, to be honest. He was kind of more focused on, he was becoming sort of more interested in other things and I was sort of fighting to keep his attention on the breast and things like that.

So it was actually quite easy for me to stop and it just felt like it was the right thing to do because I wasn't enjoying it at the time. 

[00:02:21] Emma Pickett: Okay. How many, how many weeks pregnant were you, do you remember? 

[00:02:24] Natalie: I was probably about five months pregnant when I stopped. Okay. Okay. Um, I tried to kind of keep it going as long as I could, but it just wasn't really working for me anymore and, and he didn't seem that fussed, so it was a fairly easy process.

I just sort of tapered down. I spent a really long time sort of just tapering down every feed and by that time we were only feeding at night. Before he went to bed. And um, yeah, it was, it was quite a smooth transition actually. 

[00:02:51] Emma Pickett: Okay. Well that's the phrase we like to hear. Smooth, smooth transition. 

[00:02:54] Natalie: Yeah.

[00:02:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, pregnancy discomfort, that sort of hormonal pain can hit people really hard sometimes. And then when your milk supply starts to drop quite often their feedings style will change as well, and the latch will change. And it, you know, it can be really horrendous for some people. So I totally understand, um, why you feel you needed to bring things to a close and it sounds like he was ready too.

Um, and then when and when Georgia was born, he was, he was fine with her breastfeeding. He didn't ask to restart again. Do you remember any, any particular difficult moments? 

[00:03:22] Natalie: There were a couple of times. I mean, to be honest, to be brutally honest, he still tries, like he wants to know, you know, he's interested like, what's, what's she doing?

Because I guess he can't remember it really. Um, you know, what does it taste like? And I'm, and, and I. Let him have a try, but I don't think he knows how to latch anymore. So he just sort of, um, but he, yeah, he, he did show some interest, I think because of, you know, he wanted to sort of get my attention again.

And, and you know, obviously that's, it's the hugest, it's the biggest, you know, thing in their life when a sibling comes along and, and they now have to share their attention with mommy and things. But I don't know why I didn't, but I just didn't feel like tandem, like start, restarting and tandem feeding was right for me.

I, I guess I, maybe on some level I felt like I had breastfed exclusively Indy and he had had my time and my so attention and I wanted to be able to give that to Georgia and like n now looking back on it, I wonder if maybe I could have tandem fed them. But I think you know, everything, you make the decision the best decision at the time, don't you?

So. There's not really any point kind of thinking like that because, um, I think, and also I know so much more about the benefits of breastfeeding now, and I'm so much more informed with Georgia at this point, seven years of breastfeeding in than I was when I first had her. So if I'd have known, perhaps if I'd have known all the things that I know now, I might have made a different decision to tandem feed back then.

But yeah, I didn't decide at the time it wasn't the right thing for me. 

[00:05:08] Emma Pickett: No, absolutely. Fair enough. And I even as someone who's an advocate of tandem feeding, I absolutely respect that sense of wanting to give Georgia her go. Yeah. You know, not having to share little people who are second in the sibling ranking always have to share everything.

They never get you to themselves. So I can, I can absolutely understand that urge. Um, and, and two years we make, we're making it sound like, you know, you deprived him of a breastfeeding journey. You know, two, two years is obviously well, well beyond, you know, the national average and it's something to be incredibly proud of and his world health organization recommendation type stuff, you know, and so let's not, let's not shortchange, um, Natalie from a few years ago and suggest that she did anything that was, was not amazing.

So let's talk about Georgia. Tell me about the last time you breastfed her. So we're talking in the middle of the morning on a Wednesday. When was the last time she had a breastfeed? 

[00:05:58] Natalie: Uh, probably this morning. She sleeps in my bed. Well, they both do, but. She sleeps in my bed and if, you know, if I've got my boobs out, she'll just sort of latch on and have a, have a bit of a go in the morning.

But generally I don't breastfeed her in the morning. And generally I only breastfeed her to sleep at night now, but I, I'm flexible, so like if she really wants to, um, in the morning, um, or if she's ill for example, we both, we all just actually recovered from quite a nasty case of flu, so it was great to be able to kind of give her those extra breastfeeds and sort of help her through it still.

But generally we kind of only really do, um, bedtime feeds now. 

[00:06:44] Emma Pickett: Okay. So the last 24 hours then, how many feeds has she had in the last 24 hours? 

[00:06:50] Natalie: Two, I'd say. 

[00:06:51] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Okay. So that's bedtime last night and this morning. So she's not feeding overnight even though you're co-sleeping. 

[00:06:58] Natalie: No. No, but again, like if she, if she wakes up, sometimes she wakes up, she's had a nightmare or something, and she's really unsettled and, and literally the only thing I, you know, the greatest sort of power that I have to help her settle back down and to comfort her is to just give her a bit of milk and, and that sort of helps to settle her off to sleep.

But, but no, she won't breastfeed through the night, you know, on a general basis. 

[00:07:23] Emma Pickett: Okay. And she's at school. 

[00:07:26] Natalie: She's at school. 

[00:07:26] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And, and lots of people are like, don't start school breastfeeding, and, oh my God. What? It's like, we've talked about this in another episode about, you know, that's, that's seen for some people, like this magical cutoff, especially for family and friends.

[00:07:37] Natalie: Yeah. 

[00:07:38] Emma Pickett: How did she get on starting school as a breastfeeding child? Did she stand in the playground with a poster, tell everyone she was breastfeeding? Did the, did the mobs descend on her? I mean, what happened? 

[00:07:47] Natalie: Well, so going back to that, there's been times where I've thought. I've wavered and I've sort of thought, felt like I wanted to reclaim my body.

It hasn't been sort of, I haven't been determined to breastfeed to natural term the entire time. I suppose that I think there was a point where I thought, should I stop breastfeeding before she gets to school? And it seemed like a kind of a good, I don't know, cutoff or something. And then we actually kind of tapered down a bit and I was going to, and I, I really felt at that point, like I really needed to sort of try and reclaim my body a bit.

And then we were kind of getting towards the end and, and only breastfeeding for maybe sort of 30 seconds on each side. And she said to me, I don't want to stop milky boobies. I love milky boobies. And then I had to, it kind of broke my heart and I kind of had to like reassess why I was doing this. And I, it felt like this really arbitrary sort of.

Societal imposed thing of like, oh, they can't breastfeed while they go to school. And then I just kind of thought to myself, well, why, actually? Because this is what's going to help her through it is breastfeeding and staying connected to me. And actually this is, this is my, and I always sort of talk about it like it's my superpower.

[00:09:09] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:09:10] Natalie: To help my children and this is going to help her. So actually I need to keep going and, and what else can I do? You know, what are the reasons that I want to stop and what else can I do to help myself feel that reclaim of my body? So I actually started going to the gym and doing Pilates lessons for the first time in seven years.

Since having children, I hadn't done really any regular exercise and that really helped me kind of reclaim sort of some own ownership over my body, I suppose that, that I felt like I was, that I needed and I was missing. And that kind of really helped me. To continue. And now I'm kind of, she still says to me like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be breath, I'm gonna have milky boobies till I'm a grownup.

And you know, to her there is no end. She has no thought of this is gonna come to an end. And, and, and going back to the school thing, she has come home once or twice and I think she's probably talked about it with her friends. And obviously she's clearly probably the only one in her class who's still breastfeeding.

And she said to me that she, that she told her friends that she was still having Milky boobies and they called her a baby. And then she came home that night and said that she's a baby and only babies have milky boobies and she doesn't wanna have it anymore. And she sort of, sometimes she gets this real conflict, this sort of internal conflict by what she believes that she should have.

And there's, there's that noise out there. 'cause obviously she's. She's cognizant of it now that she's five, she hears that and, and in stories and in books and things, and you see all the pictures of babies breastfeeding. Yeah. They're not older children breastfeeding. So I think she is, she has that conflict and it's never obviously come from me and it's never come from her dad, but it's out there and she's aware of it.

[00:11:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So just like the noise affects us. 

[00:11:09] Natalie: Yeah. 

[00:11:09] Emma Pickett: As they get, as they get much older. As you say, that kind of absence of messaging around older children, breastfeeding will start to impact on them as well. 

[00:11:17] Natalie: Yeah. 

[00:11:17] Emma Pickett: Not enough to want to stop. So you said that that night she said, oh, I'm a baby. I shouldn't have it anymore, but 

[00:11:22] Natalie: yeah.

[00:11:22] Emma Pickett: How, how long ago was that? 

[00:11:24] Natalie: That was probably a couple of months ago, so. 

[00:11:26] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:11:26] Natalie: Yeah. 

[00:11:27] Emma Pickett: But it hasn't had any lasting effect. She's obviously still keen to breastfeed and, and her relationships with her friends. So some people hearing that story will go, oh my God, that's my nightmare. That's my nightmare. That my child will talk about breastfeeding with their friends.

Yeah. Is that something that's still worrying you? Is the dynamic with those friends something that's still worrying you? 

[00:11:43] Natalie: No, I don't think so, because I think I always wanna try and teach my children that like to be secure in themselves and that it's okay to be different. You know, we're not all the same and we all have different timelines.

So I, I think that if you help build that, you know, resilience and that confidence in your children, actually, yeah, they might, you know, they might get teased a little bit for it, but actually, you know, you are strong and you do you basically, and that's, that's good. That's cool. And I want, I really wanna build that in them.

So I'm not afraid. I'm not really afraid of that. I think it's a shame definitely, that there is that out there and that that is influencing her. I think it's, I think it is a bit sad, but you know that that's life, isn't it? I think, you know. Yeah. And those are some of the hardships that children have to go to.

They're not always gonna be. The same as everyone else. And it's, it's just one of those important lessons I think that they have to, you know, learn and grow from. 

[00:12:42] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That's such a brilliant way of looking at it, I think. Yeah. Our in initial instinct when we've got very young children is to protect, isn't it?

Yeah. And wrap them in cotton wool and we don't want them to ever feel different. But you're absolutely right. That's the wrong way of looking at it, isn't it? We, we've, we need children to be resilient. We need them to, to celebrate their differences. We need them to feel strong about the things that matter to them.

Um, and rather than saying, I'm gonna deprive my child of breastfeeding because I'm worried about that reaction. Absolutely the most positive thing is to say, no breastfeeding matters to us. It matters to her. I'm gonna support her to be a little person that can cope if there are any negative comments.

But that's by far the healthiest way of looking at it. So, so thank you very much Natalie, for saying that, because I don't think that's a perspective that we've heard before. Um, and I also love the way you talk about how you had a bit of an epiphany when you realized that you were making changes based on that societal noise and were able to see that and, and sadly so many people that can't see that, they just, they just push forward maybe under influence of partners or family and, and, and maybe you get that epiphany 10 years later.

So it's great that you had it in the moment you had, and, and I just love the bit about reclaiming your body in a different way. What a fantastic way to look at it. So she started school. Yeah. And she was breast breastfeeding still. Mostly in the bedtime, occasionally in the morning. And do you feel it has helped her with that transition?

[00:14:02] Natalie: Oh yeah, absolutely. I mean, she's, she's a really, really, I would describe her as a very sense. Both my kids are very sensitive and very high needs, but she, her attachment needs are quite extreme sometimes I'd say, you know, like she, she, until she was about two and a half, she. Would not let me put her down.

Like even at home I had to carry her. She just wanted to be cuddled all the time. And like even the other day we went to a wildlife park and she clearly didn't feel comfortable that she's not that comfortable around animals and things like that. And she asked for lift up cuddles all the time and I said, you know, do you, are you feeling a little bit afraid and can we just hold hands and I'm here for you sort of thing.

Because she's quite heavy now and I can't sort of carry around the same way that I used to. But she does have very, very high attachment needs. I think. So I can't, I forgot what the question was. Well, 

[00:14:59] Emma Pickett: I mean, well what a gift that breastfeeding is in that situation, isn't it? 'cause it obviously helps to feel that sense of connection.

We were talking about whether you felt it had helped, helped to start, start with the starting school. 

[00:15:09] Natalie: So she's actually been going to school part-time as well. Um, 'cause she's only just turned five so she can go to school part-time until she's to the term after she's five. So she, that's helped her to settle in enormously.

But I think. I think the thing, and I think the thing I found with my son as well is the, the, the hyper sort of stimulation from school, you know, and they're tired, but they're also, you know, overwhelmed with all this stimulation and particularly being sensitive children that they're kind of wired in the evening.

And for Georgia being the person that she is, breastfeeding her to sleep is like my gift, you know, that it doesn't always work. I mean, she will, sometimes she will, it won't put her to sleep, but maybe one out of seven days that doesn't work, you know? And the other times it's just the best way to, you know, she just goes to sleep and then I cuddle her and then, you know, it's just the, the calmest, smoothest sort of most sort of connected way that we can do bedtime and she can ease into sleep.

Because I think without it. Bedtimes would become quite a battle with her. Yeah. You know, she doesn't ever really want to go to bed and I know that that part of not going to bed is 'cause she still wants that connection with me. So, so that, you know, that I think is probably the, the thing that breastfeeding helps the most with is the, is the bedtimes.

Yeah. 

[00:16:42] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And Conco sleeping obviously, really lovely way to keep that connection as well. You, you mentioned that of occasionally she wakes up at night, but doesn't sound like that happens a lot. Did you go through a phase where she woke up very frequently at nighttime? 

[00:16:55] Natalie: Oh yeah. Yeah. She's, she's never been a big sleeper.

I mean, napping. No, she, she's got phenomenal stamina for a child. She, she's never been a big sleeper. No, she, when she was a baby, you know, and probably until, I'd say, I don't know, I think it's different with co-sleeping, isn't it? Because she co-slept in. Bed all night until she was maybe two or something.

And then we transitioned to her to a bed in her room, and now she just comes in when she wakes up. So, and then she sleeps most of the night in my bed, to be honest. 

[00:17:32] Emma Pickett: Has she ever not come through? 

[00:17:33] Natalie: I would say she slept through the night about eight times in her life, and certainly not until, not once until she was about four.

[00:17:42] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:17:43] Natalie: I mean, she, she, she woke up a lot when she, it was a baby and it was, and I was feeding her sort of, you know, hourly, two hourly that went on for a long time. That was a very difficult period as probably most moms that going through similar things can appreciate, it's hard, but it's, it's hard. It's only harder if you're trying to get them to sleep in their own bed.

Obviously if they're in bed with you, it isn't quite so hard. But you're still, you know, I've, you're still going through such disrupted sleep for such a long period of time, but she's just one of those kids that just doesn't. Sleep well. 

[00:18:20] Emma Pickett: Really. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think what you're saying about co-sleeping, I think there's, I think also, and to correct me if this isn't your experience, if you think that what you're doing is wrong, if you think that what you're doing is a failure, that you are kind of co-sleeping out convenience, that it shouldn't be what you are doing.

You're in this mental state where you are really struggling. If you accept that no, this is the biological norm. 

[00:18:43] Natalie: Yeah, 

[00:18:43] Emma Pickett: yes, I'm going to be woken, but when she latches on, I can go back to sleep again. We're gonna match her sleep cycles. If you come from a place of acceptance, it can feel very, very different.

Yeah. Um, and actually not, not, not even necessarily feel like a problem, even if you are getting broken sleep. 

[00:18:58] Natalie: Yeah. And I think as well, that's some, it's just so much easier with your second child, isn't it? Because you're just so much more confident in your, your mothering and your intuition and everything.

And, and I think probably most moms would say the same, that there's so many things that they. Wish they did done with their first child, and they'd have had the confidence and the intuition to sort of do with their first child that, you know, I think as mothers, we, and women, to be honest, we, we have that kind of instinct and intuition, sort of, I wouldn't say beaten out of us, but it's undermined a lot.

And it's important I think, as a mother to, to follow that, you know, to follow your intuition and to, and to have confidence in yourself and your own knowing, because it's, it's instinct, right? It's there for a reason. It's there to, for protect our children and to protect our family and everything. So, so I think I've, you know, as I've moved through motherhood, I've, I've become much more.

Confident to do that. 

[00:20:02] Emma Pickett: Brilliant. You mentioned that when you were outside the house, she's asking to be picked up. 

[00:20:06] Natalie: Yeah. Is 

[00:20:07] Emma Pickett: she still asking for breastfeeds outside the home? When was the last time you fed outside the home, would you say? 

[00:20:12] Natalie: Last time I fed her outside of the home, I was just trying to think if there was another one, but I specifically remember a time when she was probably not for a while, to be honest, when she was about three, three and a half I'd say.

And we went on this walk and it was very windy. It was a clifftop walk in Cornwall and it was a bit rainy. And I remem, I, I'll always remember it actually as a very, very special experience because she didn't, she doesn't normally ask for breastfeeding, you know, breastfeeding outside of the house. But I think she was very tired from the walk.

She was a bit overwhelmed with the wind and we'd, you know, been camping for a few days and very tired and she, we sat down on a rock. I was just literally sat on a rock. On this cliff and, um, you know, she wanted to be breastfeeding. She was asked asking for milky boobies and, and I just bred breastfed her there, like, on this like clifftop, it was like a really kind of like, I don't know what's the word, but like, 

[00:21:11] Emma Pickett: sounds like watering heights except, 

[00:21:13] Natalie: yeah, it 

[00:21:13] Emma Pickett: was, it's the wrong part of the country.

[00:21:14] Natalie: It was a bit, and then there was like dolphins in the distance. Oh wow. Fantastic. You know, we sat there in the rain and the wind and I just kind of cuddled her into my coat and, and breastfed her there and, and people walking by and like, you know, I don't care, whatever. 

[00:21:31] Emma Pickett: Oh, wow. That does sound memorable.

Bly me. Lots of people's last public feed is, you know, in the corner of Costa, not quite as picturesque. 

[00:21:37] Natalie: That was outside the home, but, but every other feed is. You know, normal. 

[00:21:43] Emma Pickett: Tell me about other people in your life. Yeah. So what's going on with friends and family? Do, do people know? Are you getting quotes from anybody?

[00:21:51] Natalie: I guess I'm someone that I've never really been afraid to go against the norm, and that's probably part of the success of, of it I suppose. I don't listen to the noise of everyone else. I really don't care what every anybody else thinks. I just never really have and, and I quite like, you know, that, I guess this is the reason that I'm here is I, I, I love the idea that I can be somebody who normalizes this a little bit, you know?

And so I'm quite happy to tell people that I'm breastfeeding my 5-year-old, you know? And I, and I, and I find it quite interesting, the reactions that I get. I mean, I went to the pub with my husband's family, his brothers and his friends. Male friends, like last year. And I, and I said, you know, we, I dunno why it came up in conversation, but it did.

And, and I got some looks and it all went a bit quiet. And I'm like, yeah, you know, I'm, yeah, she, she's five, she's breastfeeding, she loves it. And then, and then we, I was at the dentist the other day and I dunno, she asked me for some reason, they need to know these questions, questions, so, you know, are you breastfeeding or pregnant or whatever.

And I said, I am. Yeah, yeah. I'm breast breastfeeding. And she said, oh, how old's your baby? I said, she's five, five years old. And she was like, oh, okay. Um, and, but she was actually, I mean, she was, she was actually interested in, you know, sort of my journey and like what got me there. And she was like. She was obviously sort of, you know, of that societal sort of norm of like, should you really still be doing that kind of thing.

But, but also she was interested, she was asking questions, so I was quite happy to kind of have a conversation. That's what we want, isn't it? 

[00:23:30] Emma Pickett: That's, I mean, that's, 

[00:23:31] Natalie: yeah, 

[00:23:31] Emma Pickett: that's, these are the people. We need the people who, who think it's strange, but yet the next split second they're like, okay, but I need to learn.

That's my for problem. I need to, I need to learn about this. And, and fantastic to get that from a dentist. 

[00:23:43] Natalie: Yeah. Her mind was open, you know? Yeah. To, to it. So, so I sort of yeah. Had that conversation with her. Um, so, you know, but I mean, I, I suppose mothers and mothers in-laws, they, they're not totally supportive.

They've never necessarily been to, 'cause they come from that era of, you know, the breast of the, the formula and. Formula was sort of heavily pushed on 

[00:24:11] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:24:11] Natalie: Them in those days, and particularly my mom and my mom didn't really have a successful breastfeeding journey with either of us. So she's not always totally been on board, to be honest.

I think there's a lot, she's, she's very sort of guided by society and all that sort of thing. Pressures and things. And she's, and I have had a lot of, oh, you know, like, especially in the early days, oh, you know, just give him a bottle. He'll sleep better. Or, you know, you shouldn't, you know, do you should, should, doesn't really need it anymore.

Why you still breastfeeding? You know? What about everyone? I got a lot of the sort of, what about everyone else? You know? Yes. As if like that me breastfeeding her was causing their bond to suffer somehow, you know? But I just shut it out to be honest. And I think that. I'm able to do that because I know that it comes from a place of just being uninformed.

Yeah. And I think, you know, I think back to often think back to the things that I thought of my friend, I had a friend who breastfed, uh, I can't remember how long she breastfed for, but they were two or three certainly. And this was before I had children and the, and the, and I didn't really know anything about breastfeeding.

Um, and the things that I thought, and, and all of those thoughts just come from a place of just being uninformed. And I think as long as the mind is open, you know, information and is, is a gift and, and. We can change those opinions the more we talk about it. Yeah, definitely. 

[00:25:45] Emma Pickett: Yeah. But it sounds as though you are, you are a person that even if you can't change those opinions, that doesn't affect you.

You've got this core strength in you, Natalie, which is very obvious to me and, and very admirable, which means that you center Georgia and you center what feels right. Yeah, absolutely. And those, and those noises that come from those external places are, are not going to make you influence, you know, not gonna make you change what you're doing.

[00:26:10] Dana: Yeah. 

[00:26:10] Emma Pickett: When you think about the ending of George's breastfeeding journey, what, what do you imagine? What, what if I asked you to imagine the next six months, what can you picture? 

[00:26:18] Natalie: I think the next six months will be pretty much just the same. I think that I, I, you know, I, I really don't know with Georgia, because I, I asked myself, like I said, I, I've never set out a sort of natural term breastfeeding, but I think I've heard you say it before.

It's just, you just do it one more, you know, it's just the next day basically, and the next day and the next day. I think to myself, what if she wants to, what if she still wants to breastfeed when she's nine or 10? Am I still gonna be, because I have heard of people of kids still breastfeeding at nine. I know like most children, you know, the sort of the natural term happens around six or seven and coincides with the development of the immune system and things like that.

But because she's has those such high attachment needs, she could potentially be one of those kids who's still wanting to breastfeed at nine or 10. And am I going to go along with that? And I just don't know, you know, I just don't how I'm gonna feel in two or three or four years time if that's the case.

So I guess all you can do is just like you say, just. You know, just make the decision today that you're still breastfeeding. So, 

[00:27:31] Emma Pickett: and you don't, and you don't have to know. I think it's also so important that people don't think they are, you know, we talk a lot about breastfeeding goals, which I think kinda falsely gives the impression you're meant to, to know the answer to that question.

And why would you, she's gonna change. You're gonna change. You might feel differently. She might feel differently. Yeah. Um, you know, and I think just leaving it open and allowing yourself to have that sort of organic instinctive, um, ending to your journey is super important. But from the sounds of it, you are nowhere near parent led weaning that you're, no one nowhere near bringing things to a close.

Does she ever talk about breastfeeding ending or what that might feel like or doesn't come up in conversation? 

[00:28:05] Natalie: Sometimes it comes up because I think sometimes Indie talks says, and again, he's influenced by, you know, societal pressures and things like that. He, he says, he said to her just the other day, you know, you can't have milky boobies forever, Georgia.

You'll have to stop one day. And he's obviously not getting that from me, but it's coming from somewhere. And I said, you know, no, Georgia can decide when she's ready to stop. And she says, but I'm going to have milky boobies till I'm grown up. I'll still be having milky boobies when I'm 26. 

[00:28:40] Emma Pickett: That's very specific.

[00:28:43] Natalie: Okay, well let's see. 

[00:28:46] Emma Pickett: But bless her, she sounds like she absolutely knows what she wants, which is fantastic. 

[00:28:50] Natalie: Yeah, yeah. I think, yeah, she does. 

[00:28:52] Emma Pickett: So if someone was listening to this and they were thinking, gosh, I'm feeling the pressure, I'm feeling isolated. I dunno, anyone else, is this the right thing to keep going?

What message would you want to leave them with? 

[00:29:02] Natalie: I think just, just follow your intuition. Absolutely. Just do what feels right for you and, and I, with all of motherhood, I think you have to just focus back in on, on what you feel and your, and your and your gut instinct. And this is something I'm really trying to instill in my children too.

Just following their gut instinct. Because I think that if you can focus on that and center on that, you will never go far wrong. You know, that is your guide basically. You know what is right deep down. You just have to, you just have to sort of be aware of it and let yourself listen to it. And don't really worry about everyone else.

You know, some people's minds you can change. Some people mind. You can't, it's not really worth your time. I think. And, and I've, and I found this particularly with my mom and my mother-in-law, it's not really worth my time trying to persuade them that, you know, this is the right thing. And there was a time when I was like, oh, you know, but breastfeeding does this and you know, it's, it's, this does this for the immune system and all this and trying to kind of educate them.

And I just became really tired of that because. It's not really my job to reeducate them and to change their opinion. And I, and I think I wouldn't anyway, so I'm just focused on Georgia and what is best for us, and I think that what is natural and what nature intended can never be wrong, you know, so it doesn't really matter what anyone else says.

And also, I think that it's important to remember that like no one loves breastfeeding from start to finish. Like, it's not easy for anyone from start to finish. There are always times where there's certainly, there's times where I've been like, oh, so done with this, or, oh, this is really hard part, you know, particularly in the first in stages with the, with the first one.

But it's like, I'm here now seven years in and I'm, I've never been more proud of anything that I've achieved in my life than my breastfeeding journey that. Makes me feel really good and that that only just increases my confidence and, and intuition As a mother, it's like I knew from the start that I wanted to breastfeed and there was nothing that anyone was ever gonna say that would make me give my children formula.

Like I was really, really strongly against it and it was pushed on me and I just didn't listen to them. And I was lucky enough that I, that I had the support from my husband. I think that was really, really important. Um, you know, he supported me so that I could look after my children and I just feel really, really proud.

And, and, and I think that, you know, nothing that is worthwhile ever comes easy. And I think that, that you need to be prepared for the fact that there are going to be times when it's hard, but that doesn't mean that you stop. And that's true of anything really. You know, if that, if, if ultimately that isn't what you want, and deep down you know that, that isn't what you want.

[00:32:12] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Gosh, you're so articulate and eloquent. Natalie. I wish I could, I wish I could like, put you on a pedestal in the middle of Fogger Square and, um, 'cause you, you express what matters so beautifully. And, and yeah. You, you're a legend. Thank you so much. Thank you for blessing that so clearly. It's been such a pleasure.

[00:32:30] Natalie: Yeah. 

[00:32:30] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And I can see, you know, that all that resilience stuff that you're talking about, you're gonna, you've got two very lucky little people who are, who are being cared for in, in a beautiful, balanced way. And, uh, yeah. Thank you so much for sharing your journey today. I appreciate we could talk for another half hour, but I'm gonna squeeze in Dana in this episode as well.

Okay. And I'd love to hear how things come to an end. So will you, will you promise to get back in touch with me, even if it's in five years time and let me know what happened? 

[00:32:57] Natalie: Yeah, it might be a while, but I, I will do. Thank you so much for having me. 

[00:33:02] Emma Pickett: Thank you. I had love to tell you about my four most recent books.

So we've got the story of Jesse's Milky, which is a picture book from two to six year olds that really tells the story of Little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways. Maybe there'll be a new baby sister, maybe his mom will need to practice parenthood weaning.

Maybe he'll have a self weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we are there to support them through all of them. And also we sometimes have needs to also on endings, we have supporting the transition from breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child.

There are also chapters on different individual situations like weaning an older child when there's still a baby, feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation. Then we have supporting breastfeeding past the first six months and beyond. That's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond.

What are the common challenges and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey. Then we have the breast book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14 year olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is.

I talk about brass. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives. So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley Press website. That's uk.jkp.com.

Use the code mm PE 10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful. It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you. Thank you very much for joining me for today's second part of the episode.

We're gonna be talking to Dana about her breastfeeding journey with her 5-year-old. She's a mother of two. From Cambridge, we have River who is three, and Alex, who is five. Thank you very much for joining me today, Dana. I really appreciate it. So you are tandem feeding to not so little people. Alex and River.

Tell me about Alex's breastfeeding journey. First of all, when was the last time that Alex had a breastfeed? 

[00:35:39] Dana: So first of all, can I just say thank you for having me, Emma. I really appreciate that. 

[00:35:45] Emma Pickett: That's very kind. 

[00:35:46] Dana: And the last feed we had with Alex was on Wednesday evening, just before bed. 

[00:35:51] Emma Pickett: Okay. So today is Friday morning.

Wednesday evening was the last feed, which is a really beautiful representation of how sometimes breastfeeding goes with a 5-year-old. You do sometimes get a couple of days break and that's completely normal. 

[00:36:05] Dana: Yeah. 

[00:36:05] Emma Pickett: And so Wednesday night before bed was the last time that he fed? Mm-hmm. And when was the time before that?

Do you remember? 

[00:36:13] Dana: Uh, it would have been Monday evening. 

[00:36:15] Emma Pickett: Okay. Is so the fact it's every couple of days, is that, is that because something's happening with the structure of the family or that's just a coincidence? 

[00:36:23] Dana: I'm at work on Tuesdays and Thursdays. 

[00:36:26] Emma Pickett: Aha. 

[00:36:26] Dana: So I don't finish until half past nine. So he's usually in bed by 

[00:36:31] Emma Pickett: the 

[00:36:31] Dana: time.

[00:36:31] Emma Pickett: Okay. That makes, that explains how it works. Okay. So today is Friday. Does that mean you're expecting a bedtime feed to happen tonight? 

[00:36:39] Dana: Yes. 

[00:36:39] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:36:40] Dana: Yeah. He will. Yeah. 

[00:36:41] Emma Pickett: And what does that look like? Tell me where you are, how long the feed lasts for. Does he fall asleep on the breast? What happens? 

[00:36:48] Dana: So it depends on the day and how he feels.

Um, if we are still downstairs in a conservatory watching some television, he will have the feed while we watch some television. So that can take up to 10 minutes. Uh, we cuddle up on a sofa and we'll just have a relaxing moment together for yeah, about five to 10 minutes. If we are already upstairs in his bedroom, he will, um, have a feet lying down on a bed.

We just again, cuddle up and he does not fall on a fall asleep on a breast anymore. He used to up until last year, about June when he just turned five. I think that was the point when he stopped. 

[00:37:32] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:37:32] Dana: Falling asleep. 

[00:37:33] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:37:34] Dana: On the boob. So, yeah. 

[00:37:35] Emma Pickett: So you've obviously got River who's three. How do you, 

[00:37:38] Dana: yeah. 

[00:37:38] Emma Pickett: How do you organize a bedtime for River alongside the bedtime for Alex?

How does that work? 

[00:37:45] Dana: So River goes to bed at five o'clock. 

[00:37:48] Emma Pickett: Wow. 

[00:37:48] Dana: Okay. So her bedtime is usually five, half past five, the latest. So I will feed her. She still feeds to sleep, so I will have a, about 20 minutes up in our bedroom, um, feed her to sleep. She still shares a bedroom with us. Alex in that time, he is either downstairs playing or in his bedroom.

Okay. Or watching a bit of television. 

[00:38:12] Emma Pickett: Okay. So, so that might be the earliest bedtime I've ever heard. But that obviously works, works for you as a family. So I'm guessing what she's, she's dropped her nap now and she just can't go any longer and she's faded fading at half five. Does that mean, I'm slightly nervous to ask this question, but does that mean she's waking up at three o'clock in the morning?

What time does she wake up? 

[00:38:29] Dana: No, she wakes about five. 

[00:38:32] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:38:32] Dana: Which is not too bad. 

[00:38:33] Emma Pickett: Okay. So she's getting that 12 hour night, but starting at five, 5:00 PM wows, that's, that's fascinating. And that works for you 'cause it means you get to do Alex's bedtime and you get to have a bit of, a bit of evening time.

[00:38:45] Dana: Yeah. 

[00:38:46] Emma Pickett: And so the days when you are working, um, and you're not around until half nine, does that mean someone else is putting a river to bed as well and river's not getting milk either on those days? How does that bedtime work when you're, when you're working. 

[00:38:59] Dana: So I only work in a village, so I go home at five o'clock to feed her to sleep because she will not go to sleep for anyone else.

[00:39:08] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:39:09] Dana: We haven't mastered that yet. 

[00:39:11] Emma Pickett: Okay. So that's great. You've got that opportunity. So you nip home to do river's bedtime and then, and then you pop back to work again? 

[00:39:18] Dana: Yes. 

[00:39:18] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:39:18] Dana: Yeah. 

[00:39:19] Emma Pickett: Great. You've got this down D Dana, haven't you? You've got, you've got this, this, this, you've got this system all sorted.

This sounds like it works really well. Yeah. 

[00:39:26] Dana: Yeah. 

[00:39:27] Emma Pickett: So does Alex wake again during the night? What happens if they were to wake again and do you, so it sounds like he's only having that bedtime breastfeed. How long has that been the case for? 

[00:39:37] Dana: Um, so again, it depends on the day. Like on a weekend, if we are at home and we are just, um, I dunno put her in about the house.

He will get sometimes at times when he wants tole up and have a breastfeed. So I definitely allow that as is something. I cherish as well, just to have that 10 minutes just together because life is hectic and uh, we live with my in-laws as well, so it's a bit more hectic. It's dropping the daytime feeds more and more.

So it will be, I dunno, maybe one every two to three weeks on a weekend. 

[00:40:19] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:40:19] Dana: And he has mainly have the bedtime because he does not wake in the night anymore. 

[00:40:24] Emma Pickett: Okay. And was there a time when he co-slept and woke constantly? What, what? Looking, 

[00:40:30] Dana: looking at his life. 

[00:40:32] Emma Pickett: When was the time when he woke the most, would you say?

[00:40:35] Dana: Um, he was with us in our bedroom in the next to me and we cos slept as well, um, in our bed. And that was up until he was about, I wanna say 80, 19 months. And then we moved him to his bedroom. But he would still, in the night, he would wake up and then. In our bed and then we would just go sleep until the morning.

And then I roughly remember he stopped feeding overnight after River was born. Okay. So he would have been two and a half. 

[00:41:09] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you've never really had to do any forced parent led night weaning with him? It just happened naturally. 

[00:41:15] Dana: No, I've just, it just, yeah, it just happened. He just dropped the feet himself overnight.

[00:41:21] Emma Pickett: Fantastic. So when you say after River was born, was it, I mean, how soon after was it quite dramatic? Was it as a response to River being born or just something that happened to coincide? 

[00:41:30] Dana: I don't think so. It might, I dunno, because River then shared with us and at the beginning they would both share with us.

So it was quite crowded. And I think he just, I dunno. Just naturally, I've never. Asked or I never tried to ex never really explained to him that if he would like to drop the night feed, are we gonna drop the night? It just naturally happened. 

[00:41:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah. This is the dream. I'm I'm, it's great to hear that it can work like this for some people.

So some people listening to this, maybe people who are pregnant or thinking about tandem feeding people are often naturally very nervous about the idea of having a child that feeds overnight while they have a newborn on the scene. Mm-hmm. Um, so I'm gonna take you back sort of two years or so, three years or so for when to when River was just a newborn and had just been born.

[00:42:18] Dana: Yeah. 

[00:42:19] Emma Pickett: Alex was still waking up, coming through, coming through to co-sleep. You sound very relaxed when you talk about this. Like, it, like it wasn't a big deal. It worked, it was a bit crowded, but other than that, it worked. Yeah. Could describe for us those, those early weeks when you have a newborn and a little person, two, 2-year-old toddling through, how did that go?

[00:42:39] Dana: Um, so I, I quiet mastered the bedtime time. So I would feed them both in a lounge, on a sofa. I would tend them feed them to sleep and at that time Alex was still feeding to sleep. So I would feed them both at the same time. River would fall asleep first, so I would kind of move her on to the side on a sofa and then get Alex, um, he would fall asleep, then move him to his bedroom.

Then we would carry on with River, whatever she was doing. If she woken up again, then I would go to bed and then she was in next. In the little cot attached to our bed. So she would, she was quite happy sleeping in there to start with the night. Um, then she would come and both children favor the left side, which was not great at the beginning.

I dunno why. Um, my left side seems to produce more milk even when I expressed, um, at work. It just seems the left side is more, it just produces more milk and they favored it. Um, so some, I had nights when I had to have my husband to get river to hold her for a while, um, while Alex had his feet on the left and then he would swap to the right and then I could feed them both at the same time.

Okay. So would go on the left. 

[00:43:57] Emma Pickett: Gosh, Logi Logistics. Okay. So this is when, when your husband comes into play, 'cause it sounds like you needed him a bit to To support To support River and, and settle her while Alex was feeding. 

[00:44:06] Dana: Okay. Yeah. In the early days. 'cause then he would, I think, I can't remember exact times, but I think she was about, I wanna say two months when he stopped coming in, in a night to feed 

[00:44:20] Emma Pickett: and 

[00:44:20] Dana: that was just, he would still come.

[00:44:21] Emma Pickett: That was just something he 

[00:44:22] Dana: decided 

in. 

[00:44:22] Emma Pickett: Okay. Wow. So 

[00:44:23] Dana: he was 

[00:44:24] Emma Pickett: still coming in? 

[00:44:25] Dana: Yes. He was still co he still comes now sometimes. 

[00:44:27] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:44:29] Dana: But he, he just decided he didn't wanna feed in the night anymore. Okay. He just was happy having a feed before bed and in a day 

[00:44:36] Emma Pickett: at point. And I'm 

[00:44:36] Dana: guessing 

[00:44:37] Emma Pickett: having the freedom to come through for a cuddle, he didn't feel as though he was missing out on anything.

He wasn't being deprived of anything. 

[00:44:42] Dana: No. 

[00:44:42] Emma Pickett: He could just come, come through. Yeah. Wow. Okay. So thinking about feeding during pregnancy and the tandem feeding period, what of that time was the hardest for you? What was the most challenging? 

[00:44:55] Dana: I think it was the initial, when River was born, I didn't know who to feed first.

It was like, will I, you know, you've got the thoughts. Will, if I feed Alex first, will he take the milk from river or will they get the same? I did then done some research and joined lots of groups and I've been um, going to breastfeeding group with NCT at that point already, but I still had that doubt. Do I need to feed the river first?

How is it gonna work? Like feeding them both at the cinema when we go out, because I rugby at halt feeding both of them. Okay. When they were little because I've got quite large breasts. So cradle, is it cradle A across that never worked for me. Yep. So I have that worry feeding out and about and then just a initial little Alex, be jealous, you know, because there is new baby and I think.

Feeding, tandem feeding, really help with uh, introducing him to river and getting that special bond together. 'cause they had her the first feed in the hospital after river was born about six hours after he came with daddy. So they had the initial feed and I think it really helped to bond 'cause I was really worried he would be, um, jealous of her.

[00:46:19] Emma Pickett: Yeah, 

[00:46:20] Dana: because obviously you have to give all the attention to the newborn. 

[00:46:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean that, that hormone oxytocin, which is such a key part of breastfeeding. Is the hormone that bonds people together. It's the hormone of relationships. So if we're able to give it to everyone in the household, what an advantage that is and it and how is their relationship now, now that Alex is Five and River's three, how do they get on now?

Um, 

[00:46:41] Dana: they do fight a lot, but they can be sweet as well together. They had tandem feed last Saturday together, so I have got a little cute picture from that. 'cause I always go to my husband. Can you please take a picture? 

[00:46:57] Emma Pickett: Oh, well done. 

[00:46:58] Dana: Like to not everyone 

[00:46:58] Emma Pickett: remembers that. 

[00:46:59] Dana: Yeah. 

[00:46:59] Emma Pickett: Okay. So, so here's my million dollar question.

If they both want the left, are they actually fighting for the left? Is that literally a battleground? Yes. Okay. 

[00:47:08] Dana: Yes. 

[00:47:08] Emma Pickett: How do you get, how do you, how do you get around that? What do you do? 

[00:47:11] Dana: So it's just naturally I don't, uh, I, I do usually ask, um, Alex to go on the right and then they would swap and it usually works.

[00:47:21] Emma Pickett: Okay. So he know, he knows he will get a turn on the left. He just has to, just has to wait a little bit. 

[00:47:26] Dana: Yeah. I can reason with him more than with River at the minute. 

[00:47:29] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that makes sense. That's the advant advantage of a 5-year-old. So you mentioned that you, yeah, you live with your in-laws. 

[00:47:36] Dana: Yes. 

[00:47:36] Emma Pickett: How have things been going in terms of other people's opinions?

Have you had any negativity around feeding a 5-year-old or, or feeding both of them At this point, 

[00:47:46] Dana: I actually haven't. 

[00:47:48] Emma Pickett: Yay. 

[00:47:48] Dana: I'm very open talking. I'm talking about breastfeeding a lot, like quite a lot. And I do, um, support groups for new moms, breastfeeding moms. And I do walk and talk with anxious mom club, and I do, I'll go to NCT, um, baby groups with River.

So I talk about a breastfeeding. It's part of my life and I've never really had negative. From anyone. Some people will rise at a eyebrow and say, oh, is he too old now? And I'm like, oh no, he'll stop when he's ready. And that's it. And they know me because a lot of people, I'm quite blunt with people, so, and then, and they know, I'll just tell them just to be quiet and, you know, mind your own business 'cause it's not your, not anyone else's business.

Then mine and Alex's and Rivers. And I've never had any, any negativity from my in-laws either. They're quite supportive. Fantastic. So, and fantastic. They've always been. 

[00:48:47] Emma Pickett: What about your side of the family? 

[00:48:49] Dana: Uh, they live in Republic, so they don't see us much often, but they, again, they are very supportive.

Where they've seen me feed on a, when we do Skype, uh, when we talk on a camera and when we go over there or they come here, they've seen me and they know I'm still feeding them both. So they're, yeah, they're supportive. 

[00:49:08] Emma Pickett: That's so lovely to hear. I so rarely hear a story where no one's said any negativity at all.

That's fantastic. Can I ask you about when Alex started school? How did you find that process of starting school? How did it go alongside the breastfeeding? 

[00:49:21] Dana: Very easy. He loves school. He went straight in. Um, at the beginning he would feed quite often straight after school as a downtime just to unwind and relax for five to 10 minutes.

Again, it's just progressed that he kind of stopped feeding after school. Sometimes he would feed in the morning before school 'cause he was, although he does love school and going, sometimes morning's overwhelming 'cause it's all going on. I have to get ready, get everyone out of the door. Sometimes he would ask, um, he calls it babie, so he'll ask for babie and, um, sometimes we would have it then if we didn't have time.

I try to, again, as he got older, I could reason with him a bit more. So I would say, we don't have time now, we'll have a feed after you finish school. And he was fine with that. 

[00:50:18] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:50:18] Dana: So yeah, 

[00:50:20] Emma Pickett: everything sounds so straightforward. It's so great. Great to hear. Some people are a bit nervous about starting school because they're worried about other people finding out or their child making a comment in the playground, but you don't sound like that's something that would bother you.

I mean, has anything happened? Has he said anything about it at school? 

[00:50:36] Dana: Um, I don't think so. A lot of the moms know that I'm still feeling them both because I've become friends with quite few of the moms. Um, the teachers they initially knew when, before he started reception, because they came around to have a, like a show, some resources and just meet the family before he started reception.

And he, of course, he needed a feed at that time, so they've seen him feed him. So I think they, no, I don't know. Nobody ever asked me since then. So. People probably just assume he stopped by now. But I don't think he ever come up in the playground. I can't see them standing around and talking about it because I don't think it's, I don't think it comes up.

[00:51:21] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. And it sounds as though you're so open with it. It's not really a conversation because it's not gossip if everyone knows it's not gossip if you're not hiding it from anybody, it's just, it's just part of who you are and you're so laid back and confident with it and excluding that confidence that's super special.

So you sometimes feed Alex outside the home. He still sometimes feeds in public, 

[00:51:42] Dana: um, in the car more. Yeah. I think the last time I fed him, like in a public, public would be, um, I think it was before he turned five. It was definitely last year when we went in April, we went to check and he fed in the restaurant in there and in coffee shop couple times and in a park.

[00:52:07] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:52:07] Dana: And I. That might have been the last time he fed out and about like is if he does ask, um, he'll be like, oh, can we just, before we go somewhere, he'll sit in the car. But it's very rarely 

[00:52:21] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:52:22] Dana: Doesn't happen. 

[00:52:23] Emma Pickett: What, what's, um, what's the situation with breastfeeding? Uh, is that okay to say Czech Republic?

I'm confused about whether it's Czechia or Czech Republic. What do you say? 

[00:52:31] Dana: Right. So I say Czech Republic. 

[00:52:34] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:52:34] Dana: Officially on the maps and as, uh, people refer it to as 

[00:52:40] Emma Pickett: Czechia. Okay. So in Czech Republic, what's the situation with breastfeeding? What's the kind of culture around breastfeeding? Do you see people feeding, all feeding older children?

[00:52:47] Dana: Yes. Yes. And also I think it's more, you see it more because the maternity leave is up to three years. You can take 

[00:52:56] Emma Pickett: Wow. 

[00:52:57] Dana: Yeah. 

[00:52:58] Emma Pickett: So pay paid maternity leave for three years? 

[00:53:01] Dana: Yes. Yeah. 

[00:53:02] Emma Pickett: That's incredible, isn't it? Wow. Is I 

[00:53:04] Dana: know. 

[00:53:05] Emma Pickett: How do, how does businesses, I mean, I'm, that that should be the way it is, but I'm just wondering how financially that works out.

Does the government help them to, to cover that cost? I'm just trying to work it out. 

[00:53:15] Dana: I think it is, I quite don't know how it works like logistically 'cause I've never taken a maternity leave there, but my friend had, and the employer keeps your place until you decide to return. And I think the government matches the pay.

I know you can take up to four years, you can have like extra year, which is classed as a parental leave after that. 

[00:53:40] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:53:41] Dana: But I don't quite know how it all works 'cause I've never 

[00:53:45] Emma Pickett: Okay. Not been in that country when you've been, when, when you've been working. So presumably that means breastfeeding outcomes are gonna be supported because no one's got that pressure to go back to work when they don't want to.

Um, so you do have people breastfeeding beyond two years quite commonly. Do you, I don't know the stats for, for Czech Republic, 

[00:54:03] Dana: I would say I've got. I can just talk about my friends again and the people I know when I went to, um, breastfeeding group when I went last April and there were about 10 ladies who were feeding two, two and a half year old.

3-year-old. So there were quite a few older children there, but I dunno, the statistics. 

[00:54:23] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. But it's great that you know people and you're seeing it out and about and the fact that you were comfortable doing it in a coffee shop and, and you know, feeding a 4-year-old in a, in public like that is says a lot.

'cause I think, I don't think that's something you do unless that environment was supportive. Wow. So what do you think is gonna happen in the next few months? What do you imagine Alex's journey is gonna look like in the next few months? So he turns, he turns six in June then, so, 

[00:54:47] Dana: yes. 

[00:54:47] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Okay. So little, little while to go yet.

What do you think is gonna happen? 

[00:54:51] Dana: I honestly don't know. I'll just, I'll just go with the flow. Uh, literally, literally go 

[00:54:57] Emma Pickett: with the flow. 

[00:54:59] Dana: Yeah. I dunno. I thought last, it was about September and I thought he is nearing the end because it's dropped the night feeds. Well, the bedtime feed, it was like, kind of every other day.

And then we had couple weeks when he went like three, four days without it. And again, I don't offer, we don't refuse it. 

[00:55:20] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:55:21] Dana: So I don't, I don't really know. I can't say if he's gonna stop by when he's six or if he's, if he will be still feeding when he's six. I'll just follow his lead. 

[00:55:30] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. This is a great example of when don't offer, don't refuse, does actually work, don't offer, don't refuse, I think can be quite dangerous to say to someone who's feeding somebody who's a toddler and asking all the time.

But actually at this point, dunno if don't refuse. Makes a lot of sense because it's just gonna be up to him. You're giving him that power and that in that moment, in that situation. And how often does River Feed at the moment? What? So River is three, what's that? Noise suggests quite a lot is going to be the answer.

What's a sort typical 24 hours for River? 

[00:56:01] Dana: Oh, she's a totally different ballgame to Alex. So, um, she attends preschool now three days a week. So if she's at preschool, she will only feed in the morning. She'll have a couple of feeds in a bed with me for, but they're quite long, they can last up to half an hour.

So that's, that's the morning. Um, and then if she's at preschool and I'm at work, I will then come to feed her to sleep. So that's the typical, that'll be the typical when she's at preschool and I'm at work. She does not wake in the night anymore. Um, again, that just happened. It's just I didn't ask to stop.

Wow. We didn't really do anything. 

[00:56:45] Emma Pickett: That's fantastic. So she's going to sleep at what sort of 5, 5 30 ish. And you don't, you don't hear a peep out of her until the morning and you are, and she's next to you still in the, in the same bedroom. So even you being in there doesn't disturb her. Yeah. 

[00:56:58] Dana: Not really. It depends if she's.

Getting down with court and stuff, she'll come in a bed. But yeah, most of the nights she'll sleep through the night and not wake. 

[00:57:08] Emma Pickett: Okay. I feel like we need to make a poster. We need to make a poster that says you can have a 3-year-old that is feeding responsibly, pretty much feeding on demand, and yet they are sleeping 12 hours without even blinking.

Um, that's, that's amazing to hear. There are some people listening to this going, crikey, that's not my situation. But listen, it's possible. That's what we're saying, people it is actually possible. 

[00:57:30] Dana: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:57:30] Emma Pickett: Um, wow, that's great. That's great to hear. So obviously daytime a little bit more, um, enthusiastic, but nighttime, she's obviously doing all the transitioning between sleep cycles and, and settling herself back to sleep.

[00:57:42] Dana: If she's not at preschool and not, I'm not at work and we are at home, she will feed every 10 minutes. 

[00:57:48] Emma Pickett: Every 10 minutes 

[00:57:49] Dana: she will 

[00:57:49] Emma Pickett: wows. Okay. So how do your breasts cope then with not having any, this is a real example of how breasts are super clever. So even though she's feeding so frequently in the day, you are not experiencing engorgement overnight.

You're not struggling with breast com No comfort? No. 

[00:58:04] Dana: No. 

[00:58:05] Emma Pickett: Isn't that amazing? I should imagine if you got on a plane and went to Australia and you had some serious jet lag, your breasts might complain. 'cause at the moment they're so, they're so sorted in that sort of 24 hour system. Yeah. And your breasts absolutely know that everyone's gonna be sleeping, which is so super clever.

So have you had any particular difficulties, we haven't talked about the early part of your breastfeeding journeys. What, what were the toughest moments at the beginning? 

[00:58:27] Dana: I must say I've had plain sailing. I, I don't like talk about it because I always feel like I shouldn't be talking about how easy I had it because I've never had really, at the beginning, a little bit of discomfort, the first initial latching.

Um, but I always had a good supply and both of my babies slept straight away. I didn't really have any issues. 

[00:58:51] Emma Pickett: Fantastic. I don't get to meet people like you very often, so it's great. Great to say hello. Um, and you mentioned that they have a preference for the left, but it sounds like you were quite relaxed about that.

That wasn't something that worried you, you just sensed you were naturally producing more on one side and that felt okay, or was that something that did feel worrying? 

[00:59:11] Dana: Um, no, I think I just kind of was like, oh, well, okay. They're like the left more. They were still feed, they're still feed now off the right one, so they're both producing.

Um, but yeah, I never. Really worried and just again, I don't know, it just naturally happened. 

[00:59:29] Emma Pickett: Yeah. It's just your body, which is so normal. Lots of people produce more on one side than the other. And the fact that, um, you know, you, you didn't worry about that, just accepted that as normal is, is great to hear.

Um, okay. This is a tricky question to answer Dana, but what has breastfeeding meant to you? If I was asking you to sort of summarize, how does it feel to be a breastfeeding mom? What does it mean to you? How important is it to you? 

[00:59:53] Dana: Um, it's my superpower. I'm a super mom. I dunno, it's amazing. I, it's my greatest achievement, like the breastfeeding puts anything, any of my studies, any of my traveling, anything to shame because I've kept two babies, two humans alive.

For the first six months alone, just on milk, I think that's amazing. 

[01:00:19] Emma Pickett: Yep. 

[01:00:20] Dana: So it's my superpower and it's my greatest parenting tool because it solves any problem and anything, any tantrum is, I think we are amazing. 

[01:00:31] Emma Pickett: Yeah, you are amazing. And for sure, I mean, what an amazing achievement, Dana. You've just done so much with your breastfeeding and you've, and it's just really lovely to hear just how positive it's been.

I mean, to, so to hear you say you've never had a negative comment, to hear you say, you know, there's both sleeping so incredibly well. It's absolutely worked, hasn't it? It really is your superpower. Um, what an amazing part of your parenting journey it's been. And I, I love how you say it puts all your other achievements to shame and it's the thing you're most proud of.

'cause that's, that's really special to voice that. So if someone's listening to this and they may be feeding a 3-year-old, or they're thinking, oh gosh, maybe I should bring things to a close now, what would you want someone to know about. Letting your child take the lead. Why, why do you think that's, that's mattered to you?

[01:01:15] Dana: I dunno, it's, I've always, from the beginning, I was like, I'm gonna follow the child's lead. Never quit on a bad day. 'cause that's never good. And I, I don't, again, because it naturally just happened for us. I didn't have to put any boundaries in a place. But absolutely. If you need to put boundaries in place, absolutely do that.

Yeah. Um, and I think, um, just steadily, not to pressure either side, don't pressure yourself. Don't get the pressure from your parents or your friends or anyone who's trying to tell you you should be doing this and that. Don't. Take that. Just follow at, at the end. It's your, and your baby's on your child's journey.

I always kind of with the flow, so I just 

[01:02:10] Emma Pickett: Yeah. But it's actually really great to hear you say, even though you haven't needed to put boundaries in place for you to remind people that if your breastfeeding journey does need you to put some boundaries in place, that is absolutely the right, right thing for you to do.

Absolutely. And that may mean that you can end up breastfeeding for longer, so, so don't give us, don't get the impression from this conversation with Don that we're saying, you know, completely child-led is the way everyone should do it. And this is the ideal and this is the dream. And if you are not getting that to work for you, something's wrong with you.

Not the case at all. If you need to put those boundaries in place, then that is also natural term breastfeeding. That is also mm-hmm. What breastfeeding, a toddler, a little person looks like. Because you are part of this story as a, as a mother and as a parent and you matter too. Um, and there are lots of different ways to be being a breastfeeding mom of a 5-year-old and it doesn't all have to look the same.

But just before we, we wrap up, Dana, is there any resources that you've particularly loved during your breastfeeding journey? Any, any particular things that you'd recommend? Anyone checks out? 

[01:03:09] Dana: I've been with both kids. I've been going to lule meetings and they've been brilliant. Um, NCT again, breastfeeding classes, if people have the time and you know, if they're around anyone they can go.

That, that'd been brilliant for me. 'cause you meet breastfeeding, uh, moms. 

[01:03:30] Emma Pickett: The lecture league are particularly well known for older children breastfeeding and toddler breastfeeding. Yes. So they traditionally have sessions focused on older children, so it's worth finding out if you've got a lecture league meeting close to you because they, they, that's absolutely part of the core of that organization.

I mean, every, every breastfeeding charity will support someone breastfeeding beyond babyhood, but it's, it's very much part of the culture of L League for sure. Um, yeah. Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time today, Dena. I really appreciate it. You are just such a amazing role model for people just hearing how things have worked out for you and also the fact that you work and you work in the evenings and that hasn't meant that your breastfeeding journeys had to come to a close.

And the value and the support of your family is just so special to hear. Really huge congratulations on your breastfeeding journeys, and thank you so much for sharing your story today. 

[01:04:20] Dana: Thank you so much. Are you gonna make me cry? Aw, no, thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It was great to chatting to you.

[01:04:28] Emma Pickett: It's, it's a pleasure and good. Good luck with how the next things go. Keep me posted. I want to hear how things carry on. 

[01:04:33] Dana: I will. Thank you.

[01:04:39] Natalie: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on 

[01:04:42] Emma Pickett: Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.