Emilia's story - formula fed my first, breastfed my second

Today’s guest is Emilia Kalyvides, a graphic designer and mum of two from North London. Emilia faced a lot of challenges with feeding her first child, including a tongue tie, extreme pain from her milk coming in, and a postnatal mental health crisis, which led her to choosing to bottle feed. She found out that she was pregnant with her daughter very quickly (they are just 16 months apart) and vowed that she would do things differently the second time around. After a lot of research and preparation, this time she established breastfeeding despite her daughter’s low birth weight and sleepiness. They persevered through those early weeks of pumping, and she breastfed for 18 months. 

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

Resources mentioned - 

Milly Godwin @‌milkystarts 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm gonna be talking to Emilia. That's Emilia Caldis, who's not very far away from me. I'm in North London and she's a, I could probably chuck a paper dart if I was really good at chucking paper darts. She's just a little bit across the north circular from me.

And we're gonna be talking about her feeding journeys with her two children who are just 16 months apart. And as you have seen from the title of the episode, we're talking about the experience of having formula fed your first child and then breastfed your second child. What does that feel like? What issues does that bring up?

How does someone get to that position and how does it feel to be breastfeeding for the first time when actually you are a mom of two? Thanks very much for joining me today, Emilia. I really appreciate it. Tell me a little bit about your family. Tell me who you've got. 

[00:01:32] Emilia Kalyvides: So I have, um, a little boy who will be, um, three in two weeks time, and then I have my daughter who 

[00:01:41] Emma Pickett: is 19 months.

Okay. So. That's quite a small gap, not only in, in North London, I don't often meet people with a gap that small. So you, first of all, whatever we're gonna talk about today, you need a serious medal because that is incredibly impressive to have gone through pregnancy with such a little person and to have given birth with such a little person and done the whole newborn thing.

So that is amazing. Um, and your son is your eldest and your daughter is your youngest and your son is the child that you formula fed. So before we talk about his feeding journey, tell me about your family history around feeding or or breastfeeding or formula feeding. What was, what were you expecting when you were pregnant?

What were your, what was your plan? What was your kind of culture around infant feeding? 

[00:02:27] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah, so I'm one of, um, three girls and we are actually also, um, very close together in age. So my sisters are 13 months apart and then I am two years younger than my middle sister. My mom breastfed all of us, um, to different degrees.

I think. I think my eldest sister was maybe three or four months, and I think my middle sister and I were sort of 12 to 13 months. Um, so I had known that we were breastfed, but it was something that was a little bit, you go upstairs to breastfeed, you don't breastfeed in public. That was the kind of idea I had about it in my head.

Rightly or wrongly, I'm not sure if that came from my family or from me to be honest. So when I was pregnant with my son, um, I hadn't really thought about it very much, um, until we started our sort of NCT classes. And I must say I went to the first one and got completely overwhelmed by everything that was said in the class about giving birth and everything else.

And, um, I'm not sure how much information actually went in after that. I think a lot 

[00:03:43] Emma Pickett: of people can relate to that. I often have conversations with people where they say, I don't think that was covered at all in my antenatal class. And it turned out it possibly was. And, and maybe we just need to work a bit harder on thinking about how we can receive information when we're in that state because it is very overwhelming when all this stuff's being thrown at you.

Um, so do you remember breastfeeding content in those, in those classes? 

[00:04:05] Emilia Kalyvides: Yes. I, I actually remember it really well because we had a specific breastfeeding class. Um, it was a half day on a Saturday in a cinema. Um, and we sort of had, yeah, this half day session. And at that point I was never someone who thought I really want to breastfeed.

Like I, it didn't matter to me really. I didn't know much about it. In fact, I knew nothing about it. And so I, I'm sure I was listening in the class, but I wa it wasn't something I was taking in all the information thinking I must do this. I just kind of listened and I don't remember hearing anything about it being difficult at all.

Um, it was a lot about like feeding cues. Um, and I just don't remember hearing about the challenges. I remember getting something with, um, you know, sort of like helpline on there if you need to call them at the end of the class. Yeah, I don't remember much else, so I don't know. I either didn't take it in or maybe it wasn't mentioned or 

[00:05:06] Emma Pickett: talked about too 

[00:05:07] Emilia Kalyvides: much.

A lot of 

[00:05:08] Emma Pickett: people say that they think antenatal content is too positive. And it's really interesting when you drill down to the people that organize the classes, there's almost this sort of fear that if you're too negative, you will put people off. And, and I'm kind of, sort of gently getting from what you're saying that you wish there had been more on, on the challenges and the struggles, and I think almost everyone I've spoken to said I wish there was more on that because I think it does parents a disservice to imagine that, um, you know, they could, they can't accept more detailed information.

And I'm guessing you're gonna go on to tell me that with your son, you did have some challenges. So you sort of, so it's interesting what you're saying. You kind of went into that space not necessarily being wholly committed to breastfeeding. It wasn't something that you've absolutely felt it was very, very, very important to you, but you did wanna give it a go.

It was something you wanted to initiate. 

[00:05:56] Emilia Kalyvides: It was something that, to be honest, I wasn't even sure. I, I wasn't even sure how I felt about it. If you told me then that I would be doing a bread breastfeeding podcast, I would be absolutely shocked. Honestly, I was, I completely just, just thought, if it happens, it happens.

That was my approach, which I now know was it doesn't just happen. Um, so I thought I'll give it a go. I was quite fixated on the actual birth throughout my pregnancy, like, um, quite terrified. Um, and by the end I was overdue and I didn't want to be induced. So I actually had an elective C-section. So that's kind of how my sort of birth story went in the end.

And I was quite happy, um, with that situation 'cause I had a lot of anxiety over the birth. 

[00:06:44] Emma Pickett: Okay. Was that, do you mind me asking, was that something that, mm-hmm. So there's a particular condition where people are, are very, very nervous about birth. Was that something, did you feel you got sort of specialist support around that?

Did people kind of help you reflect on what was going on or you were just given the impression it was normal to be scared and, and, um, 

[00:07:02] Emilia Kalyvides: I don't think I told my midwife I was nervous about it. 

[00:07:06] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:07:06] Emilia Kalyvides: I think I didn't tell anyone until it came to them saying that. So I went in with some reduced movement when I was 40 plus weeks and, um, they sort of said, you're not gonna be able to leave without having the baby.

Um, we're gonna examine you and see if we can in, um, or do an induction. And I, I had heard, 'cause I was actually the last, one of the last babies in my NCT groups and I'd heard a few stories about induction. I thought, oh, I'm not sure. And so I just asked for a c-section and they, that was. It was fine.

That's how they, they just sort of said yes. 

[00:07:41] Emma Pickett: Yeah, it's your decision of course. And that, and that felt more, you felt more in control. All that uncertainty be taken away from you. 

[00:07:49] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah, and my mom had actually had three C-sections, um, because I think we were, my first two sisters were breach, so that's something I was familiar with, I'd heard about.

Um, so I, I wasn't overly anxious about it. 

[00:08:02] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Okay. So your son is in the world. Did you get to have that skin to skin experience? What was your actual birth like? 

[00:08:09] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah, it was, it was actually completely fine. It was a bit rushed because I was kind of on the emergency list. I was waiting for a slot. It wasn't with my daughter, it was booked in.

So it was, it was quite a different experience. Um, so I felt, you know, we didn't quite know when we were going down and when, when it was gonna happen. Um. So, yeah, we had the skin to skin. Um, my husband was in the room. Um, he took the baby, um, cut the umbilical cord and everything. Um, and yeah, I had overall a, a, a positive experience.

I had sat in the recovery room with him. Um, I remember it all being quite positive. 

[00:08:50] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So at what point, you can guess what I'm gonna say next? At what point does breastfeeding enter your head? So you, you hadn't necessarily gone to hospital that day expecting to give birth. Your mind had been filled with thinking about the birth.

So I'm kind of guessing you hadn't even had mental space to make your decision around feeding. Uh, when you were in that hospital, when did those feelings around feeding and thoughts around feeding first start to creep in and, and what happened in the first hour after your son was born? 

[00:09:16] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah, so from memory, it was immediately, um, encouraged to breastfeed, which was, I was happy with that.

I wanted to try. And I don't remember too much from that first. I mean, I, I think I had expected that they'd suddenly sort of latch on and just be drinking load of milk. But I mean, I didn't have, I hadn't, my milk hadn't come in. I didn't have milk yet. So, um, I also hadn't harvested any colostrum or anything.

Um, so I think at that point I was just very overwhelmed and just trying to bring him to the breast when I could and keep him there, keep him really close. Um, I had some support from the midwives, um, coming over and showing me different positions, but he never actively fed. I, I didn't think he wasn't actively 

[00:10:05] Emma Pickett: feeding at 

[00:10:05] Emilia Kalyvides: all.

[00:10:05] Emma Pickett: Okay. So when he was on the breast, you weren't in pain or it just, he was just there but not really doing much? What was happening? Do you remember? 

[00:10:14] Emilia Kalyvides: I didn't find it painful. That was when I was in the hospital. Um, but I think he wasn't really doing very much. Um, and then when we had our. I can't quite remember what it's called.

When they, you know, when they check the baby just before you leave? Yep. They found he had quite a severe tongue time. Okay. So that was as we were leaving, um, I left within 24 hours of having him. Wow. From the hospital. Gosh, okay. Um, so we were really not there very long. Um, they told us he had a tongue tie.

They said that unless we were, I think, I think they said unless we were exclusively breastfeeding, it would be quite a long list. And I remember feeling very confused about that. 'cause I thought, how can I exclusively breastfeed when he can't? He's struggling to breastfeed with a tongue tie. And I was, I was really confused about that whole situation, 

[00:11:05] Emma Pickett: to be honest.

What you're saying there about tongue tie and how you have to be exclusively breastfeeding. It is the most ludicrous thing that is part of this tongue Thai conversation. So the uk I'll try not to ramp the next 20 minutes. The UK situation around tongue tie is such a mess. But that, what you just told me is something I've heard again and again.

There are particular hospitals that say we only do the tongue type procedure on a hundred percent breastfed babies. Hello. The whole flipping point of somebody possibly needing the procedure is because they can't actually breastfeed. It's absolutely ludicrous. So you were 24 hours post birth and this weird bit of information had been thrown at you.

What were you thinking you were gonna do next? 

[00:11:46] Emilia Kalyvides: To be honest, I didn't know what tongue tie was. I hadn't really heard of it before. Um, it wasn't something I think my mom had experienced with any of us. My husband actually went to do this check with the, with the midwife. I'm not sure who does it, but with them.

So I wasn't even there. He kind of came back and said he has this tongue tie thing. Um, and that they said. It could be sorted if he was, um, yeah, exclusively breastfed. And I was really conf, he wasn't exclusively anything at that point. Um, so I was very confused. Um, we got home, they recommended that we see someone privately, um, to get it resolved quickly.

So luckily, well, not luckily. In my NCT groups. Some other mothers had experienced this. They had someone who was local that they had used. Um, and she came to my house I think on day three. Um, and she helped me. So that was a positive experience. She was really great. Um, she gave me a little bit of feeding support afterwards.

Um, but not, not a lot. And by that point, being my first baby, I was quite panicked that he was not feeding 

[00:12:55] Emma Pickett: understandably, um, before those three days you be. Mm-hmm. Did you start bottle feeding him when you realized he wasn't directly feeding at the breast? Were you bottle feeding early on or were you still trying to feed breastfeed?

[00:13:06] Emilia Kalyvides: I was still trying to breastfeed. I was pumping, so I was trying to, I wasn't getting a lot of milk. I think my milk hadn't really come in. I remember it coming in very specifically and it hadn't yet. So, um, I was pumping, trying to get something, something out. I was giving it to him in a bottle 'cause he was feeding from bottles.

And I kind of continued that, but I just didn't feel like there was enough coming out. I didn't know what enough was, and I just got extremely overwhelmed and anxious. I phoned the breastfeeding helpline. I was kind of getting mixed, um, feedback from everyone I spoke to. And at that point, becoming a mother for the first time, the pain of a c-section, my milk coming in was incredibly painful, which I didn't even know was something that could be painful.

I just, I, something had to give and I just thought, I just have to feed the baby. So I put, I bought some formula and, um, I felt enormous guilt, which was quite, um, unexpected because I hadn't been that attached to the idea of breastfeeding. So that actually came as quite a shock to me, um, that I was so upset 

[00:14:19] Emma Pickett: about it.

Gosh. So even though he had the severe tongue tie. You still felt this extreme guilt that you are, you were making a choice that somehow you weren't being allowed, you shouldn't be making. 

[00:14:31] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah, and I think because I think naively, I had thought that once they cut the tongue tie, he should just be able to feed.

I just thought that was it. And then I think I spoke to someone on the, um, helpline who had said that because he had always had this tongue tie that his, um, sort of sucking, swallowing would be different because that's what he was used to and that he'd need to kind of relearn. And I thought this, that was a whole other 

[00:14:59] Emma Pickett: issue that I just, it just became so overwhelming.

Yeah, it does take time. Um, I mean, I don't want to kind of take your individual story to kind of talk generally, but just for anyone who's listening, you know the idea that when you have a tongue tie released immediately everything falls into place. You know, good tongue tie practitioners will make it really clear to you that that's not necessarily gonna be the case.

That's a little muscle that he would've been working at all through the end of the pregnancy. He would've been swallowing amniotic fluid. He'd have been pressing the tongue against the roof of his mouth. He would've been really moving that tongue around if he hadn't been able to do that. And it's interesting that the person doing the assessment talked about it being a really significant, severe tongue tie.

That muscle probably wasn't able to lift much at all. And when the freni limb has been cut, that muscle for the first time now can move. And he's got to learn a whole bunch of skills and also get the muscle strong enough and practice, and it can take. A couple of weeks sometimes to see the impact of of, of, you know, the procedure.

And if you're feeling anxious already and overwhelmed, um, you know, those, those couple of weeks will feel like a really, really long time. Do you remember on what day you made the decision that you weren't going to be breastfeeding anymore? Do you remember that process? Did you talk to someone about it?

Did you just feel that kind of on an instinctive level? Can you remember how that felt? I felt awful actually. 

[00:16:17] Emilia Kalyvides: I felt awful. Um, and I had a lot of support around me. Everyone was just saying to do what I thought was best, but in a way that was a lot of pressure. 'cause I didn't know what I thought was best and no one was pressurizing me either way.

But in a way, I just wanted someone to tell me what to do because I just needed to someone to tell me exactly what to do in that moment, I just felt I couldn't make any decisions. And I feel I would've probably regretted the decision, whatever decision I made, because I didn't know, I didn't know what I wanted.

So by day five, I think I'd got so anxious, um, he'd already been then feeding, um, on formula. So by day five, I think I just said, that's it. I don't, I don't wanna try anymore. I thought my milk hadn't come in properly. I just thought maybe I just don't have any milk. I just was very confused about the whole situation.

Um, and yeah, I just needed something to be a bit easier. Um, and although saying that, I remember the first time I tried to make formula, I was completely even overwhelmed by that. Um, boiling a kettle or leaving it half an hour when you have a crying baby, I was very confused by the whole situation. So yeah, from then onwards, he was formula fed.

Um, and we used about. Uh, two or three different formulas, um, because he had sort of constipation and things and they weren't really working well for him. And then that leads into another sort of story that we have with a cow's milk protein allergy. Oh gosh, that was, 

[00:18:00] Emma Pickett: um, yeah. Okay. Before we go into that story, I'm so sorry you had that experience.

On top of everything else, I don't wanna keep dwelling back on this week, but I'm just thinking about what you needed in that time. If you had a little time machine, and I'm not asking you to go back and imagine how you could have breastfed your son, because I don't think that's helpful, but, but it sounded like you would've maybe benefited from someone to help talk you through your decision and your family were doing the lovely thing of not wanting to put pressure on you and wanting it to be your decision, but in a time when maybe you didn't have the capacity to, to make that decision.

What do you think would've benefited you on in that, those moments? Did you need more face-to-face breastfeeding support? Did you need, um, someone to just sit down with you and talk you through your options in a kind of therapeutic type conversation? What do you think you would've benefited from in those moments?

[00:18:50] Emilia Kalyvides: Yes. I think, well, I think a lot of the things I did the second time round, I learned lessons from the first time. So I, you know, having the support from a lactation consultant was amazing. The second time, I think I just didn't have that information to hand, and in hindsight, if I'd been more prepared or if I had the kind of, um, those tools available to me before, if I knew a consultant to contact if I needed to, then those things would've been a bit easier.

But just, just, you know, it's a very like, vulnerable time. And then to also be looking for someone to discuss something that's so sort of delicate. Is quite hard. Yeah. Um, you kind of need to think about that before. I think that that's kind of my advice. Now I give to my friends who are having babies, I kind of say, maybe think about doing, if you want to breastfeed, do a lactation consultant appointment before your, you have the baby.

[00:19:45] Emma Pickett: 'cause that's what I would've wanted. I think. Yeah, that's, that's really good advice. Um, an antenatal conversation, not least because then the practitioner will get to know you and, and you know who you are and, and how you organize things and how your brain works. But also they can give you any practical information you need.

And then quite often when you've done an antenatal conversation with someone, you'll be in their mind for slots as soon as baby's born. They'll, they'll write you a due date in, in their calendar. They'll know when you, when to expect a call from you. You might even schedule one if you're having an elective, you can schedule one for a couple of days after baby's born.

So you talked about your milk coming in and that happened after you'd made the decision to not breastfeed. Is that what's happening? I'm just, talk me through the days. No, that, that 

[00:20:25] Emilia Kalyvides: was on day three. Um. I don't know if this is true, but I've since heard that if you are quite, um, flat chested, which I am, um, that it is a little bit more painful.

I don't know if that's true. I I don't think that's 

[00:20:39] Emma Pickett: necessarily wrong. I mean, it makes sense to me if you don't have a lot of fatty tissue and you've just got a lot of glandular tissue, proportionally, it makes sense to me that your skin is stretching in a way it doesn't normally. Um, my experience is that women who, um, breastfeeding folks who've got a lot of fatty tissue don't necessarily notice engorgement as much as people who are a little bit smaller, um, sized.

Um, so I know I don't think that's necessarily wrong. I've got nerve evidence to back that up, but that, that makes logical sense to me. Yeah. So you were in quite a lot of pain then right in the moment when you were having the tongue type procedure done and you're worried about intake and you're worried about your son, there's a lot going on.

Yeah. 

[00:21:18] Emilia Kalyvides: I would say that pain was actually worse than the C-section pain. Oh, okay. It was really bad. I, I remember my husband phoning the, um, hospital and them just saying, oh, it's, it's just her milk coming in. I just remember thinking, this can't be, this can't be right. But I mean, obviously it was, but I do know I, I since spoke to other friends and they didn't have any pain at all.

So, um, I guess it is, it just depends to say, I 

[00:21:42] Emma Pickett: mean, I guess if, if he wasn't attaching brilliantly and there were latching issues, I mean, you know, you were pumping, but it might be if you weren't pumping quite enough, Andy wasn't attaching, you just milk wasn't being removed and you had a bit bit more milk being left behind them was ideal.

[00:21:55] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah, and I do remember speaking on the, when I did speak to the helpline, they sort of said about how often I had to pump. I can't quite remember exactly what they said, but at that point I just remember thinking that is completely overwhelming. I was like pumping every however hours. They probably said roughly three hours.

That's 

[00:22:12] Emma Pickett: what they would normally say for hours. I just 

[00:22:13] Emilia Kalyvides: thought. Gosh, I just, I can't do that. And I did do that second time round, but the first time it was just too much. 

[00:22:20] Emma Pickett: So it's probably your milk coming in, plus a bit of engorgement, plus a bit of extra milk being, um, left in the breast. And that combination of those two things together being really rough and, and when we're not emotionally feeling great, pain feels worse.

Pain is more pronounced, pain is more obvious. The lactation consultants, or maybe they weren't a lactation consultant, the person that did the tongue type procedure, that wasn't someone you felt you could work with for an ongoing lactation support relationship. 

[00:22:48] Emilia Kalyvides: I don't think that was something she offered.

I remember going back to her after I'd spoken. So once I spoke to the helpline, they'd said that perhaps she should have given me some exercises and things to do with the, with the baby. Um, and I remember asking her about that and her saying, no. Um, so the support was kind of finished. Okay. There. I didn't feel like I could, um, approach her again.

Really. 

[00:23:13] Emma Pickett: You'll get different schools of thought around the exercises thing, by the way. There's, there's not a lot of strong evidence around that. So lots of practitioners will say breastfeeding is actually the best exercise. And some practitioners will talk about mirroring and sticking your tongue out, and other practitioners will talk about putting your finger in baby's mouth and moving tongues around.

But you'll get a lot of variation because there isn't necessarily a very strong evidence base. But I'm not a specialist in this area. Yeah. So I 

[00:23:36] Emilia Kalyvides: think even that was quite confusing, that I'd got one bit of advice from the helpline and then the women I'd worked with had said something different and I, you know, it just, nothing was adding up really.

Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:23:47] Emma Pickett: So you've made the decision to move to formula and you made the decision to not continue pumping. You just wanted to draw a line under the whole lactation thing completely and just move to a hundred percent formula. Um, you talked about feeling guilty. How did you cope with that feeling and was it something that got easier?

No, I 

[00:24:08] Emilia Kalyvides: think that, um, in hindsight that decision, um, caused a lot of problems that continued right until I was pregnant with my second 

[00:24:20] Emma Pickett: child. Yeah. Okay. Um, there's a really lovely book written by Professor Amy Brown where she talks about breastfeeding grief. Um, I dunno if that's how, how that term sounds to you.

Is that something that feels familiar or you've, you've used the word guilt as guilt, really. What, what was the overwhelming emotion? 

[00:24:41] Emilia Kalyvides: It was definitely, um, it was definitely guilt. Um, that was much worse once my son was then diagnosed with a cow's milk allergy, that really cemented 

[00:24:57] Emma Pickett: sort of, that I'd made the wrong decision.

Yeah. How, how did that diagnosis come about? So you talked about constipation, which is obviously a, sometimes a symptom of analogy. Yeah. That was one of his symptoms. What, what else was going on for him? So early on, 

[00:25:10] Emilia Kalyvides: um, I went to the gp. We had reflux, um, and constipation. With the constipation. The doctor, the sort of GP was telling me that he needed to sort of learn how to poo.

Um, and then with the, um, reflux, they were saying it was normal. I was a first time mom, I don't know what normal is. So I took, that is what they said. That's normal. So that kind of con, that kind of improved the constipation improved. The reflux did improve as he got bigger. I, I must have been to and from the gp.

10 times, you know, it was, I was going all the time. Then much later, sort of when he was kind of 5, 4, 5 months old, he was still on maybe his third or fourth formula brand. 'cause we were trying all different brands and he started to get some, well he got really bad diarrhea, just continuous diarrhea. And again, I went to the gp, they were sort of saying that there was no bug, like they were testing it, no bug.

So basically he's fine and that's sort of normal poo. Again, I'm first time mom, I don't know what was normal. In my gut that was not normal and I sort of delayed weaning a little bit, like only a couple of weeks because um, I didn't want to then go back to the GP and then tell me that it was because of some food allergies.

Okay. So I really wanted it resolved before we started weaning. Um, and then basically things came to a head when he was about six and a half months. And I had just started weaning, um, because I spoke to the doctor about it and I said, look, this problem is not to do with weaning, so I'm gonna start. And he basically, um, started to poo blood.

Okay. Um, so yeah, and I went to a e um, 'cause I was obviously very panicked and luckily or not, luckily there happened to be a junior doctor strike that day. So the woman I saw was a really senior doctor and she looked at it and she said he's got cows with allergy. 

[00:27:18] Emma Pickett: Okay. So he'd been starting to eat dairy.

Had he and started to when you were weaning? 

[00:27:24] Emilia Kalyvides: Uh, yes. Okay. 

[00:27:25] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:27:27] Emilia Kalyvides: Well, no, maybe not actually. We were in the very early stages, so maybe he was still just on first fruits and vegetables. Okay. 

[00:27:33] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. So that must have been a horrible, scary day. And then did that mean that you moved, you changed to a different kind of brand of formula and Yeah.

What happened next? He instantly got onto 

[00:27:45] Emilia Kalyvides: a prescription formula, which, um, by that they had said I need to introduce it quite slowly. But by that point I was quite desperate. He was really, I felt, wasn't really fair on him. Um, and luckily he took the new formula really well because it does, um, it does seem very different.

You know, it smells very different. Yeah. Lots of 

[00:28:07] Emma Pickett: people say that it's quite difficult to, to prepare 'cause it doesn't smell great. But he didn't have a problem. He was quite happy. 

[00:28:13] Emilia Kalyvides: No, I think the first bottle, he wasn't very keen, but then after that he was fine. Okay. All those symptoms stopped basically instantly.

[00:28:20] Emma Pickett: Okay. Gosh. Well, I'm glad you met the person you met and, and, um, yeah. All the symptoms went away. That's a, that's the, about the strongest bit of evidence that yes, he was struggling with cows milk protein if, when you changed the formula and suddenly his symptoms went away. 

[00:28:35] Emilia Kalyvides: Mm-hmm. 

[00:28:36] Emma Pickett: So it's not long until you're about to get pregnant with your daughter, I'm just thinking we've got another couple of months and you're about to get pregnant with your daughter.

Mm-hmm. Personal question. Tell me to get stuffed if it's too personal. Were you thinking, Ooh, I want number two here, I, here we go. Or was it a bit unexpected? 

[00:28:51] Emilia Kalyvides: Absolutely not. Um, by that point, um, I was feeling quite low really. Um, and I had been talking to the GP a little bit about, um, whether that was postnatal depression, um, the cow's milk allergy and everything that kind of surrounded, that had caused so much anxiety, uh, that I was just, yeah, I was really anxious and then I found out I was pregnant with my daughter, um, which was a big surprise.

And, um, my anxiety absolutely spiraled. Okay. Uh, and I ended up in a bit of a mental health crisis 

[00:29:34] Emma Pickett: at 

[00:29:34] Emilia Kalyvides: that point. 

[00:29:34] Emma Pickett: Oh, I'm so sorry. Th that crisis was that related a little bit to, I'm pregnant again and I've got another birth coming and another feeding journey coming, or were you able to kind of, I ident identify what those triggers were for you?

[00:29:50] Emilia Kalyvides: I, it was, it was a little bit of the overwhelm of finding out I was having another baby, but in all honesty, I had been feeling quite bad before that. Um, so it wasn't directly related. Um, I think just the absolute overwhelm of being a new mother. Um, I really struggled with thinking that I didn't have a strong bond with my baby or, you know, wondering if my bond with the baby was what it should be.

And comparing myself a lot, thinking things like, if I had breastfed him, he would've been, you know, he would've bonded a lot more and, you know, could it have been different? And that kind of all was what, what led to that sort of. Yeah, depression, really. 

[00:30:36] Emma Pickett: And did you get support? You mentioned that you did talk to your gp.

Did you get sort of treatment and support? 

[00:30:43] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah, I mean, um, things got fairly serious. Um, and I was actually under the support of my local crisis team, um, who would actually, when I found out I was pregnant at that point, they were visiting me daily. Okay. 

[00:31:03] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Okay. So I'm glad you had that contact and you weren't on a waiting list, waiting for something to happen.

I'm guessing your family were very worried about you. You mentioned that you'd, you went, when, before we started recording, you told me that you'd gone back to work quite early. Were are you working as well at, at this point? 

[00:31:20] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah, so I'm freelance, so I'm working from home. Um, the setup at that point, my son hadn't started nursery, so my mum would watch him.

In the house with me, um, while I was working. So I was really lucky that she was able to do that for me. And he was in the house still. So yeah, I was back at, I, I mean, I wasn't working full time, but I was back and doing a bit of work. Yeah, yeah. 

[00:31:48] Emma Pickett: Gosh, there's a lot going on, isn't there? I'm just really imagining how, how overwhelming all this must have been.

What helped you to get better, or maybe you didn't get better. I mean, at, at some point in your pregnancy with your daughter, did you start to feel better? When did things start to turn around? 

[00:32:04] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah. Um, no, things really did turn around. So that was sort of September, um, 23, just when I'd found out I was pregnant.

Um, and I'd say by November, which was, uh, my son's first birthday. I was feeling much better. So, um, it was a mixture of therapy, some medication which I actually stayed on throughout my pregnancy and breastfeeding, um, journey. And I was, yeah, by his first birthday I was, 

[00:32:34] Emma Pickett: end of November, I was feeling much better.

Good. I'm really glad to hear you talk about the medication because I think there are lots of misconceptions around medication and compatibility with pregnancy and breastfeeding and, you know, we hear reports about people who get pregnant and suddenly stop their medication because they don't think it's compatible.

And, and it is, there are a lot of people post-natally who need medication to help 'em with their mental health. So we've got a, a big population of people who are being looked at and studied and there's actually a pretty decent amount of research. Um, and, and as you also touch on breastfeeding compatible medication is absolutely an option too.

So I'm really glad that you had that support to, to continue with that, I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got the story of Jesse's Milky, which is a picture book from two to six year olds that really tells the story of Little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways.

Maybe there'll be a new baby sister, maybe his mom will need to practice parenthood weaning. Maybe he will have a self weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we are there to support them through all of them.

And also we sometimes have needs to also on endings, we have supporting the transition from breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child. There are also chapters on different individual situations like weaning an older child when there's still a baby, feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation.

Then we have supporting breastfeeding past the first six months and beyond. That's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond. What are the common challenges and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey.

Then we have the breast book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14 year olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is. I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives.

So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley Press website. That's uk.jkp.com. Use the code mm PE 10. To get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful.

It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you. What are youth starting to think about your next feeding journey? What are you thinking about when you're, when you're reflecting on your imminent second baby, were you able to do more thinking about feed your feeding journey?

Were you able to do more thinking about breastfeeding? Where were you with that decision? 

[00:35:32] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah, I think it took me a little bit of time to sort of accept there was another baby coming. So, um, I did keep the baby a little bit quiet, um, for a few months, and then in my head I was a hundred percent going to be breastfeeding as time.

I think I did put a bit of, bit of pressure on that. Like I, to me it felt important. I felt like, um, this bond issue would be not an issue if I was breastfeeding, which I don't think is necessarily true. Um, but that's how I felt about it. And I felt like this time I'm gonna do the work before I have the baby and I'm going to research, I'm going to harvest colostrum when I'm in the hospital, I'm going to tell them I'm breastfeeding and that's what I'm doing.

Um, that was kind of my mindset going into it. So it was very different to the first time round. 

[00:36:23] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that's, that's a very brave decision. I mean, I know you might dismiss that, and that's a daft thing for me to say, but actually you're going to be parenting in a, in a different way. I mean, you don't have the advantages necessarily all the advantages of being a second time mom.

When you are breastfeeding, and lots of people would say, my God, you're gonna be breastfeeding and you've got this tiny toddler walking around and you're gonna be breastfeeding with a another sibling who can't even, you can't even say to them, Hey, I'm breastfeeding. He's too little to even understand what you're doing.

Some people are nervous about breastfeeding with little people around. So I'll ask you a bit more about that in a minute. When you describe your decision making process, it sounds like it's, it's very internal. Like you're doing all this thinking yourself. Did you reach out to someone, antenatally, did you talk to any lactation consultant?

I didn't actually. Um, 

[00:37:11] Emilia Kalyvides: I did a lot of research. I think might have been around that time. I started listening to your podcast as well. I, um, I spoke to my midwife out. I was under the care of, um, a specialist, uh, midwifery team. Um, so I got a little bit more support this time round, which was really good. Um, and I did speak to them and I made it really clear that that's what I had wanted to do.

Um. Yeah. And then I was also receiving, um, some more scans throughout the pregnancy 'cause the baby was measuring a little bit small. So that was a little bit of a consideration because I was wondering, you know, how that conversation would go once she was here. If she's small already, would I, yeah. Would I, would I be able to 

[00:37:54] Emma Pickett: breastfeed and Yeah.

Et cetera. Yeah. So you have another planned C-section and this time presumably it's a little bit more relaxed 'cause you're going to hospital expecting to give birth. And, and he was with your mum, was he your, your son? 

[00:38:08] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah. My parents, um, came and stayed in our house, which was nice. 'cause by that point, um, I hadn't spent a night away from him really.

So my parents came and stayed here. Uh, me and my husband went to the hospital. We had her, it was a Friday and it was scheduled in, I had her early, she was um, 30, I was 38 weeks. Um, which they advised because she was measuring really small. So how 

[00:38:34] Emma Pickett: old was your son on the day that she was born? 16 months.

Did you do any, I mean, he's just old enough to know that there are things called babies and this is what babies look like. Did you have a go at doing any of that kind of prep or did you just, we're just gonna go with what feels right at the moment? 

[00:38:49] Emilia Kalyvides: I don't think I did. I used to refer to the baby. Um, I used to refer to her a lot.

Um, and I had like a little nickname for her that I used to use. But no, I don't think, I don't think I did. I remember thinking that I needed to spend lots of time with him. Um, so I was kind of like eight months pregnant. I was taking him places on the tube and I wanted to take him everywhere. 'cause I was thinking this is my last chance to have just the two of us.

Yeah. I don't, I don't think I did though. I don't think he would have understood really. But he was by that point really confidently walking, crawling. He was, he's really active, um, which was. Um, a little bit worrying in a way for me. Um, there was new challenges. Um, yeah, he was a very active little boy. So 

[00:39:38] Emma Pickett: tell me about the first breastfeed you had with your daughter.

How did those early days go with breastfeeding her? 

[00:39:43] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah, so, so I had her, um, and she was small. She was five pounds, five, and she, we had a lot of challenges at the beginning. I was in hospital with her for about a week because she just would not feed, so she wasn't waking up enough to feed, which was, yeah, really difficult.

But I really stuck to, I was gonna be breastfeeding, I'd harvested colostrum, which I put in the freezer in the maternity ward. I was giving her that in the little syringes. Yeah. So I spent a lot of time with her, you know, skin to skin, but she was really sleepy. 

[00:40:21] Emma Pickett: And you are expressing, I'm guessing, early, early days as well as the hand antenatal expression, you're also expressing postnatally as well.

Yeah. It's interesting how when you're talking about this, you're coming across as quite calm. Like so even though you had a really difficult first few days and she's small and she's not feeding effectively and she doesn't have a lot of energy and she's really sleepy. The contrast between how you're describing those few days versus how you described the first few days with your son, you seem much calmer despite all these new challenges.

And is that, am I fair in saying that is, did you feel more, more calm even though things were challenging? 

[00:40:57] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah, it was a completely different experience. I, I went into the hospital just knowing what I wanted and knowing things like when she's born, she doesn't need to be drinking 60 ml of milk, you know, at each feed.

Like just being more informed. And I, I mean, it was cha. Don't get me wrong. It was challenging and I was really emotional and, you know, I didn't feel like I was getting the support I wanted in the hospital from the team because obviously they're just so busy. And, um, I did have a, a couple of bad experiences where I, I had a midwife come in and I'd just be saying, oh, you know, I don't think she's fed for like four hours.

Like, she's just asleep. She, she just couldn't wake up. And, um, he said to me that if I give her some formula that will give her energy to wake up. And the decision was just kind of made there. And then, and he gave her a bottle, like a, one of those, you know, pre-made little bottles, a formula just standing up next to me.

And I remember being really upset by that. So without you properly giving consent, I did consent to having the formula. Formula. But you felt under pressure. But I, I felt under pressure and I felt, um, I, I felt like that should have been me to give her the bottle. Okay, I see what you're saying. Yeah. Um, and I, I didn't really understand why.

Why he had just stood next to me and just picked her up and given her this bottle. I mean, we had discussed it because obviously he had to go off and get the bottle and all those things. So I did know that she was gonna have the formula. But in hindsight, I look back on it and I think, or I'm not sure about that, but that was actually the 

[00:42:31] Emma Pickett: first and the only formula she ever had.

Isn't that odd that you are sitting right there and he didn't. Make the decision to offer you to feed. I wonder did he think you weren't able to 'cause of your C-section? I'm just trying to work out what would've been going through their mind. 

[00:42:44] Emilia Kalyvides: I don't know. But a anyway, needless to say, after that, the next midwife said, why would that make her wake up?

Like that's just filling her up. She's just gonna sleep. And she did, she just slept more after that. So, um, that, that wasn't 

[00:43:02] Emma Pickett: probably the right idea. Yeah. Sometimes we talk about a little teeny weeny bit of milk just to poke people up, be like putting a little bit of milk in someone's cheek or putting milk on your finger or, but that could have, I mean, you were an espresso.

You were an antenatal espresso that could have been expressed milk. Um, there's nothing magical about formula in that scenario, but just hearing what you're saying about how that was the only formula she ever had. Wow. That really tells us what a different scenario this is. And now determined you are this time round.

Yeah. That's amazing. So, so despite her sleepiness, you were able to. Push through and make exclusive breastfeeding work. I mean, that really says everything about your determination. 

[00:43:41] Emilia Kalyvides: I did also get really lucky that my husband, who was going to and from this freezer with all these syringes, 'cause I was, um, expressing a lot in the hospital.

Um, on one of his trips he saw a midwife there who said, oh, this is great. Your, your, your wife must be doing really, or Your partner must be doing, um, really well with breastfeeding 'cause you're coming to the freezer so much. And um, my husband sort of said, oh no, it's the opposite. So, you know, the baby's not having any of it, so we're just putting it all in the freezer.

And, um, she was a locum, I think, and she happened to be an infant feeding specialist. Um, it was the weekend when the teams are not in. So I had no support from the team. And she came after her shift when she'd finished and she sat with me for about an hour. Um, and she really, really helped me. She completely changed my breastfeeding journey.

I don't even know who she is now 'cause she doesn't usually work in that hospital. That's so special. Gosh, I 

[00:44:36] Emma Pickett: can imagine. 

[00:44:37] Emilia Kalyvides: She was amazing. She was amazing. Even my husband was saying, I just, you know, he just happened to meet her and she was amazing. And she, she sort of explained to me that, you know, having these little syringes of colostrum at her weight and her age was totally normal.

And to really, she really encouraged me. And when the pediatrician came, because they were seeing her, because of her low birth weight, she kind of stood up for me and sort of stood up for the breastfeeding and saying, you know, that's what I wanted to do. And, you know, it could work. She was, she was amazing.

Gosh, 

[00:45:09] Emma Pickett: I have to say, if I was a spiritual person, I'd think, was that a human or was that some kind of angel that came down and was there in the hospital to make sure that they were there at the right time? Because it sounds like they were there not only when you absolutely needed them, but also to be there at the, during the conversation.

The pediatrician. I mean, it's like magical timing. Yeah. Um, yeah. And, and also they changed your kind of feelings around, you know, you know, feeling positively and, and made you feel that you were succeeding and helping you feel more confident. That's amazing. But it's also really clear how much of this is about your preparation that, you know, you were so much more informed about what, what early breastfeeding looked like, and, and that, that level of education was really what, what's making a huge difference here.

But yeah, three cheers for someone who's willing to come for an hour at the end of a shift. And, you know, being a locum in a hospital is an intense time and they were still gonna give you that hour afterwards, which is so special. Yeah. How was your son getting on with you being in hospital for a week?

How did that feel? And, and did he come and visit you and visit the baby? 

[00:46:07] Emilia Kalyvides: No, we chose, so we chose for him not to come in because I just thought that would be, he just wouldn't understand at all. And I think he wouldn't wanna be seeing me in the hospital, but he was absolutely fine. He was here with, um, my parents, my sisters.

I think he was, yeah, he was actually really enjoying himself. Um, so that was a relief that, um, and my parents were coming obviously into the hospital, sort of taking it in turns my husband was going home and doing bedtime with him and then coming back. So, um, it was, yeah, that, that was, that was okay. And, um, in a way, in hindsight, being in him for the five days meant I actually recovered much better, I think, from my C-section because I was forced to just, you know, it wasn't, I wasn't able to really go anywhere.

Whereas when I'd come home after the 24 hours, I sort of was just doing we as much as I physically could. 

[00:46:58] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, if you'd walked through the door 24 hours after giving birth and he'd sort of leapt on you, that would've been pretty intense. Yeah. So she didn't have a tongue time, I'm assuming? Um, no, she didn't.

No. And breastfeeding felt different. 

[00:47:11] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah. I mean, it was extremely painful. It was all of those things. I, there were a lot of times where I thought, is this gonna work? Um, but you know, the idea of having, I, and I was, um, at the beginning, sorry, I was, um, pumping and she was having milk from the bottle because she wasn't able to feed directly very well, and it was very painful.

Um, so I sort of had a break and was using the bottle, but continuously pumping. Did 

[00:47:40] Emma Pickett: your milk come in? Did you have that same pain again? 

[00:47:43] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah, I did. No, I'm sorry, but I knew, I, I knew what it was that time, so it was okay. It was just being prepared was, you know, just made the whole experience better just knowing what those feelings were and what was going on, you know?

So, yeah, we had, you know, I, I remember being just like attached to that pump all the time. Um, and the idea of pumping every three hours wasn't as overwhelming when I heard it at that time. I sort of thought, okay, that's what I have to do this time round. Whereas the first time I thought, oh my goodness.

Like, how am I gonna look after a baby and pump every three hours? And, yeah. So I mean, there was a lot, you know, there was a good, I'd say the first six weeks she wasn't really feeding directly. Sort of doing a bit of both. And I was, you know, in the nights, my husband is amazing and he was giving her the bottle while I was pumping for the next bottle.

And I, I never had a, like a stash. Yeah. I was always pumping for the next bottle. Okay, 

[00:48:38] Emma Pickett: okay. 

[00:48:38] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah. 

[00:48:39] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, I guess, I think sts are a bit overrated. You don't need a stash, but one ahead would've been nice, I guess. 'cause that must've been quite Yeah. Quite intense to always feel like you needed to and six weeks of pumping.

And that's a heck of a long time. And especially when you've got your son to look after as well. Mm-hmm. But yet you're giving me this vibe of, which is just, I'm, I'm doing this, this is, this is what's working. You've obviously got the support of your husband, um, but you feel you're in control. You know what you want to do.

You've got goals in your mind. You're just giving me a completely different vibe. 

[00:49:10] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah. Um, I think when I first started feeding, I thought, I'm gonna try and do this for the first three months. Then it became six months, then it became nine months, and then it became I'm gonna be one of those mothers who keep breastfeeding.

That I sort of, you know, had never expected to be like, it was absolutely, if you told me I was breastfeeding an 18 month old child, I would've just thought, that's absolutely ridiculous. And not me at all. Like, it's just opposite what I, what I thought. 

[00:49:42] Emma Pickett: Well, congratulations on being where you are. 'cause it's really special to hear.

So, so she did it, she did that. Start latching on So as she got bigger Yeah, and little, her little buckle fat pads developed. She started to latch on her feet effectively. And did you carry on doing a bit of pumping or you just say goodbye to pumping and just breastfed? 

[00:49:59] Emilia Kalyvides: Um, I did carry on for a little bit, but then she very quickly became bottle refuser.

[00:50:04] Emma Pickett: Oh gosh, that's not helpful. Okay. 

[00:50:06] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah. So she, she, after. From quite early on, I'd say probably two, three months, she wouldn't take a bottle anymore. Okay. Um, so 

[00:50:18] Emma Pickett: yeah, she never took a bottle after that. Okay. That's interesting. Yeah. Some people are saying, oh, we've got to start giving an early bottle because then they won't ever refuse.

And this is just a little demonstration mm-hmm. Of how there, there are no guarantees there. How did it feel to be parenting a breastfed baby instead of a formula fed baby? Did, did your parenting at nighttime differ? Did you, were you making different decisions around co-sleeping? What else felt different?

Mm. 

[00:50:44] Emilia Kalyvides: You know, actually it actually didn't, which I thought it would change. So I'm, I'm quite a routine person. Um, which obviously when you are, I guess the, yeah, the feeding frequency obviously changed because with my son I was quite like. Every three hours, he will have this bottle and offering it every three hours.

Um, which I know isn't probably even what's recommended now for bottle feeding anyway. But with my daughter, I was much more responsive. Um, basically every time she cried, just pick her up and, and feed her. But the nighttime didn't change. I haven't, I haven't ever really co-slept with either of the babies and, um, that continued.

I didn't either with her, I just used to get up and go into her room a lot. 

[00:51:28] Emma Pickett: So she's now 18 months-ish? Um, 19 months. She's 19, yeah. 19 months. And, and what does a typical night look, look, look like for her at the moment with breastfeeding? She does, she breastfeed at night. 

[00:51:38] Emilia Kalyvides: She's, I, she stopped, she stopped breastfeeding, so, uh, 18 months.

By 18 months, I was only feeding her before bed and not through the night. Um, so that feed was just getting shorter and shorter and shorter. Um, typically I'd sit with her brother and he's used to reading his bedtime book. She'd just get distracted by the book, wasn't interested in feeding, and eventually it just stopped.

She just, she just prefers the books now and cuddle. So when was your last feed? 

[00:52:11] Emma Pickett: Do you 

[00:52:11] Emilia Kalyvides: remember? I do actually remember it. It was, um, so I haven't breastfed her in in the day for quite a few months. When she started nursery, rightly or wrongly, I thought, I'm gonna not feed her in the day. So there wasn't a confusion there.

And then, um, they, they called me and said she had a temperature, so I collected her from nursery. Um, it was a very rare occasion where I sat on the bed with her and fed her during the day 'cause she was, you know, upset and ill, and that was actually ended up being the last time I fed her. 

[00:52:41] Emma Pickett: Gosh. So she, so she stopped asking it at bedtimes, wanted just to read the books.

Yeah. And you just let, you just let her take the lead and, and went with her. 

[00:52:49] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah. And she just 

[00:52:51] Emma Pickett: loves a cuddle. She just wants to be cuddled. So, so, so I'm trying to think how many weeks ago. So it's about, been about a month since she's had her last Breastfe. Yeah, about a month. Gosh, wow. So well done for getting to 18 months.

What an achievement. And again, you went back to work reasonably early as a, as a freelance graphic designer. So combining work and nursery and, and breastfeeding and looking after a not so old toddler as well. Um, amazing. So, gosh, what an achievement to have that second breastfeeding journey after what happened with your son.

I hope you feel incredibly proud of yourself and, and what you did and what you achieved. Especially, I mean, even, you know, the fact she wasn't really latching on and feeding effectively for the first eight weeks. Um, you know, to have come through that and have, and ended up breastfeeding for 18 months is such an achievement.

If there's anything about your journey that, thinking about your daughter's journey compared to your son's journey, was there anything, did you have moments where you started to reflect on your son's breastfeeding journey? Again? Did any of the sort of grief and guilt reemerge, I don't mean to sort of poke you to imply that you should have been feeling that way.

Any reason I ask is because some people find that even though they've sort of come to peace with their first breastfeeding journey not working out, sometimes if they continue breastfeeding, the, the old, the younger child, some of those feelings start to reemerge and you start to think, you know, the concepts of fairness and one child getting one experience and one child getting the other.

Did any of that stuff reemerged for you or were you able to sort of accept what happened and understand that's the way things were? 

[00:54:21] Emilia Kalyvides: Um, I mean, luckily I didn't, I didn't feel like that, um, and actually breastfeeding the second time round because they were so close together. Was actually really helpful in many ways.

So at the time I had my daughter, my son was like still having his milk in a bottle. In a way, um, my daughter not using a bottle was good 'cause there was like no jealousy there. So the few times at the beginning, she did have a bottle. He kind of wanted it and he wanted her bottle, but because he hadn't experienced breastfeeding and he, he just didn't have any jealousy over it at all, he'd come and sit on my lap and read her book and it would just become time for us to be like all together.

I mean, obviously there were times it was difficult and he wanted to run around and I, you know, I remember following him around the park breastfeeding at the same time. Um, but, um, all in all, it actually made things a lot easier. I could take him to all of his, you know, little classes and then she'd just be there as soon as she was sort of a bit upset.

She just wanted to be fed for a little bit and I became, by the end, really comfortable with feeding her in public, which was, that wasn't luckily an issue for me. So, um, I didn't have those feelings. And, um. I actually think for them, having those two different experiences meant there wasn't, yeah. That jealousy wasn't really there.

[00:55:42] Emma Pickett: Good, good. And, and if you just, you just seemed, um, this is gonna sound really daf, but there seems like being some sort of healing going on for you here with your daughter experience. Is that, is that word that feels comfortable to use? 

[00:55:54] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah, and I think, um, yeah, I think the, you know, some of the thoughts I had at the, you know, when I had just my son about our bond, now I look back and I think, how did I even think those things?

I think obviously we had a really strong bond and he's amazing and, you know, I just think we are really close and I, I just don't know what I just had in my head that breastfeeding would change things so much and in a way, breastfeeding my daughter made me realize it doesn't, you know, it's lovely, but it, it doesn't change it.

I'm, I'm still both of their moms and. It doesn't really matter to, to them now they're both happy children. And 

[00:56:37] Emma Pickett: so I'm wondering whether maybe, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you. I just wondering maybe you weren't well when your son was, was was little and, and whether maybe some of your concerns around did the bond were, was a symptom of that, of, of not Oh, they were a hundred.

[00:56:51] Emilia Kalyvides: They were a hundred percent that it was, it was, you know, I was really not well. Um, so looking back on it now, the thoughts I had were just kind of, you know, I wouldn't think of now at all. So, yeah. And I mean obviously that was a worry as well that that would happen again the second time round. And, um, in my head I did think that by breastfeeding, I'd try and prevent that a little bit.

But, you know, I, I think if it hadn't have worked out, it, it could have been different for me. Like, I think I did. It probably wasn't a great idea to pin so many hopes on it, because I really did, I was really relying on it. 

[00:57:30] Emma Pickett: But it also gave you that determination at the same time, didn't it? So the, the pinning hopes thing, which sounds risky, also gave you that incredible drive and that determination.

So there was a, there was a positivity to that as well. And if you'd gone into your second journey with Yeah, maybe it'll work out, you maybe wouldn't have not had that drive. So it swings roundabouts as they say. 

[00:57:50] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah, yeah. No, you're right. I, I probably wouldn't have, um, yeah, if I hadn't have been, you know, actually done some of the research before then, uh, it would've been a different situation.

But, um, yeah, it's, yeah, it's been, 

[00:58:05] Emma Pickett: it's been a really, um, wonderful experience. You must be a very useful person for expectant parents to talk to. Um, have your sisters had kids, have you had any conversations with friends? No. Are you, when people say, tell me about your feeding journeys, you, you must be very good at giving a whole balanced of view of, of what's, what people need to do and, and helping them with their journeys.

[00:58:26] Emilia Kalyvides: Yeah, I mean, oh, one thing I did miss out is that one, after I had my daughter, I did, I actually contacted you, I think because some of my NCT friends recommended you and you were, um, fully booked, I think. Oh, no guilt. Sorry. And you recommended me to No, that's fine. 'cause you passed me on to, is it, uh, Millie from Milky Staff?

Yep. So I just wanna give her a bit of a shout out. 'cause she was, she came around to my house in the early days and helped me and she was amazing. So, um, in terms of, yeah, the advice and things that's, I always recommend her, um, recommend your podcast and also. Yeah, I mean the, the, I think one of the things about the, the pumping and how the frequency is just absolutely shocking when you first have a baby.

I think people just don't think that that is, you know, when you hear about it, you think, how can I possibly do that? But kind of reassuring people that sometimes putting in that effort at the beginning does just, it does pay off. You're not gonna be doing that for months and months, or at least, you know, if you are, then maybe you need to look at, you know, what, what you, you know, whether that's the right decision for you.

And just telling people, you know, you can just gotta really get through that initial bit. That's really hard and it, it does pay off in the end, you know, like being able to just go out without the bottles and the thing that keeps the water warm and then the thing that cools it down and then the. Little thing with the powder in, so, you know, it, it made 

[00:59:52] Emma Pickett: logistically, it did make life much, much easier as well.

Yeah, I bet. As a mother tube getting out and about. I can imagine. Um, how is your, some of his allergies, uh, is he still struggling? What's happening with his allergy? No, 

[01:00:02] Emilia Kalyvides: he's, he's really good. So, um, from when he was one, we did the sort of milk ladder, um, and now he's totally fine. He has all, all dairy. He absolutely loves his milk.

You know, he lives for his milk. My daughter actually doesn't drink any milk now. She won't touch cow's milk. Um, so they're totally opposite. He's kind of obsessed with it, and she, she won't, she won't touch it. 

[01:00:27] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That's not unusual when a, a child finishes breastfeeding at her age. Um, so you just have to pay attention to other sources of calcium, which I'm sure you're on.

Um, I'm thinking about the traditional intake. Okay. As it's common. Does, does she eat dairy? She's happy to eat dairy. Oh 

[01:00:41] Emilia Kalyvides: yeah. She loves, she loves, yeah. 

[01:00:42] Emma Pickett: Yogurt, cheese and stuff, but she just, just drinking milk. That's fine. Not a problem. As long as she, there's nothing magical about drinking milk. Um, obviously they're even vegan toddlers who are absolutely doing fine.

Yeah. They just need parents who are paying a bit more attention to what's going on. But, um, not unusual for children to stop breastfeeding and just want to drink water. So as long as she's eating, um, everything she needs to eat, then that's not a problem. Well, I'm really honored that you're sharing your story with me today, Emilia.

Thank you so much. Um, and, uh, yeah, I'm just really pleased to hear that you had that second experience, that it's just been so positive and, and, and healing and, um, you sound like you've got two gorgeous kids. 

[01:01:22] Emilia Kalyvides: Thank you. Thank you for your podcast because honestly, I've, I've loved listening to it. Um, it's given me so much advice.

It's just been great to hear other people's stories and you know, when I didn't know anyone who breastfed basically passed a year. And just hearing other people's stories that had done that and how normal it is, um, really kind of encouraged me to do the same. 

[01:01:44] Emma Pickett: Well, that's lovely to hear. Well, I hope your story will do the same, um, for somebody else.

So yeah, I really appreciate your time today. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes Milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well, get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.