Breastfeeding a 4 year old with Madeleine

This week, I’m speaking to the brilliant Madeleine from Leeds about her experience breastfeeding her 4-year-old son, Peter. We discuss how Madeleine managed night weaning and setting boundaries, and how their day to day feeding is going now that Peter is at school. Madeleine shares her personal experiences, including the challenges of breastfeeding while working night shifts as a doctor and the essential support from her husband and online communities. Since starting their journey together, she has trained as a peer supporter, worked with her colleagues at MiLC and changed her career to focus on public health - all due to her experience of breastfeeding!

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

Resources mentioned - 

MiLC - https://www.facebook.com/groups/480916214609440/ 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end.

And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too. Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm talking to Madeleine from Leeds, and we were just comparing the fact that it was snowing where we are. So this episode won't go out for a little while, but today's a snowy day for both of us, and Madeleine is feeding her son, Peter, who is four, and we're gonna be painting the picture of breastfeeding a 4-year-old.

How does someone get there? I don't put these episodes on YouTube, but Madeleine doesn't have horns. She looks very normal. People that breastfeed four year olds are normal. 'cause it is normal. And that's the, the message that we're giving with this episode today. Thank you very much for joining me today, Madeleine.

I do appreciate it. 

[00:01:24] Madeleine: Thank you for having me. 

[00:01:25] Emma Pickett: You've got headphones on, but I assume there are no horns hiding under your headphones. Um, no, 

[00:01:29] Madeleine: just my hair. 

[00:01:30] Emma Pickett: Because feeding a 4-year-old is very ordinary and very boring and very normal. So in some ways people would say, well, how can you make an episode out of something so ordinary?

But for some people they dunno. Anyone feeding a 4-year-old and they might be feeding a 2-year-old or a 3-year-old and, and wonder what life will be like. Um, and, and that's what your job is today. So no pressure to represent the entire world of feeding four year olds. I have got another episode where I'm talking to a couple of other people feeding four year olds as well.

But, um, it's great to hear your story. So first question, when was the last time Peter fed? Can you describe for me his last feed 

[00:02:05] Madeleine: this morning? So just a couple of hours ago before the school run, we were still in our pajamas sort of getting, starting to get out of bed and get ready for the day. He's always in bed with us in the morning because he comes through trots through at any time between 10:00 PM and 5:00 AM often bringing a few cuddly toys with him.

Yeah, it's, it's sometimes not, not every day, but it is sometimes how we start our day. I start to make moves to get out of bed. And it's almost like he grabs 'em back and he's like, mummy, milk please. And depending on how I'm feeling, I say yes, or I say no. I say wait till later. Um, but this morning was a yes, um, because I can't tell you why I said yes, but I did.

And so we did what we call 10 and 10. Um, and this is a, it was sort of me, I think maybe a year ago, starting to think about implementing some boundaries and reducing the duration of his feeds 'cause it got a bit uncomfortable for me, although it's not uncomfortable at the moment. Um, and so we do 10 and 10, and this means I count 10 and he feeds on one side, and then he switches sides and he and I count to 10.

And the beauty of it is that I can choose how quickly or slowly I count to 10. 

[00:03:10] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that's, that's the trick, isn't it? So the nice slow counts. So when you're feeling a bit more regulated in, in the zone, yeah. It's, it's really healthy to hear that you have that. That inconsistency of of mm-hmm. Of saying sometimes yes, sometimes no.

I think people are often really scared of that and they think, oh, I'm not allowed to say no on one day if I said yes on the other day. But, but this is about feelings and bodies and Yeah, we feel differently on different days, and of course we're gonna answer that question differently. Um, when you do say no, what does he, how does he react?

What happens? 

[00:03:41] Madeleine: I think because of the age that he is now. He, I, I often accompany the no with a reason. It's like, okay, if it's the morning, no, we haven't got time today. We need to get up and get ready for school. And that, you know, if I'm reasoning it and giving, you know, a, a justification for it, he can, he takes it a lot better than just a flat out no.

And so, you know, sometimes it's, it's of an evening and it's just before bed. He did ask before bed last night and I said no. And I said no, because it's gotten really late now and you had an extra story and now it's time to go to sleep rather than to have mummy milk. And again, he took it quite well. You know, he's not a hundred percent happy about the decision.

He, he will go, that's not fair. But he, um, I think because he, as he's gotten older and older, that sort of negotiation between the two of us has gotten a lot easier and it's become a really respectful relationship, I think, between the two of us. So I can see when he really needs it. And so I'm much more likely to say yes then.

He can see when I really don't want to do it, and he's much more accepting of my nose then for whatever reason, especially, especially as I say when I give a reason. 

[00:04:48] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean it sounds a bit naff, but I do believe this. I believe you, you are modeling something so powerful in terms of body autonomy and and self-care.

Yeah. That's in the back 

[00:04:58] Madeleine: of my mind. Yeah. Of, you know, this is his first. Like it, it's his first relationship with another human body, isn't it? Yeah. Um, and you know, other than his own and showing that my body is my body, his body is his body, and yes, they, they are related and they're connected in this way, but we still have that ownership and that power of our own bodies to say what happens with it.

And so for him learning that from an early age, I'm hoping he takes that forward. And those, those takes those principles forwards as he gets older. 

[00:05:32] Emma Pickett: You expressed that beautifully. Um, yeah, that's, that's, that's the nub of it all. In fact, that's the episode. Thanks Madeleine. We said, we've said the important bit.

Um, no. That, that's, that's incredibly powerful and that, and that doesn't sort of get dropped, you know, when they're, they reach their fourth birthday, that is a drip, drip, drip. Mm-hmm. That starts to happen very gradually as you make that transition from responsive feeding to toddler feeding, to preschool feeding.

And, and now you are not preschool feeding. You're school feeding. He's school feeding, yeah. When he started school, how was that for him? How did he find starting school back in September? I'm 

[00:06:03] Madeleine: so, so proud. He's done beautifully. It's such a big transition for any child and so we didn't really know how it was gonna go.

Um, there were lots of nerves on the, the, that first day, in that first week, adjusting to that new routine. And to be fair, I, I think my, our plan was always with Peter that we were just gonna try and hold space for whatever emotions came with it. If he, if he, if he was one of the anxious children, then we just, we just ride with it.

We just try and meet his needs emotionally. We've been really fortunate that he, he seems to have just adjusted really well and we haven't had any of those additional challenges. Um, you know, every day he's more than happy, just coddling into the classroom. He loves the wraparound care that he goes to a couple of times a week.

So he constantly gets questions. Is it Breakfast Club? Is it after school club? He's coming home with phonics and reading books and it's just really exciting hearing about his little friendships and what he's had for lunch and yeah, he's done. He's done so great. We're so proud. Wow. 

[00:06:58] Emma Pickett: Great. Do you think that continuing to breastfeed was helpful in that process or, or kind of irrelevant?

[00:07:04] Madeleine: I remember on that first couple of weeks, I think the, the af like the kind of evening feeds, he probably had a few more than he was doing previously. And I think I recognize that for that kind of, oh, something's changed in my life, so let's just go back to what's familiar. Let's have that, that, that comfort, that connection.

Of an evening after this. Really, really, you know, he was knackered as well by, he started the way his school did it is they went in on a Monday morning at nine o'clock and that was it. They were in, there was no, none of this half days. I know some school did. Oh gosh. People 

[00:07:32] Emma Pickett: I know like two days off you go, come back again.

Which actually for working parents isn't super helpful. So there's something to Oh, it was great for our, our point full. Yeah. 

[00:07:40] Madeleine: Um, and he went in, he went into, into the wraparound care as well, that first week as well. So it was just, that was it. He was there. He was in. But so he was exhausted by the Friday afternoon and I think we did have, um, for him, you know, having a breastfeed is a real pick me up.

Um, it, it like gives him a bit of a boost. Um, and I dunno whether that is just because he gets the comfort from it, I, whether maybe he probably is getting a little bit of, um, hydration and nutrition from it still as well. I do know I've still definitely got milk there. I dunno what volumes, but there's something.

Um, and he does seem to kind of get a bit of a boost from it, uh, when he is tired. Which isn't always helpful at bedtime, but, um, but you know, when he's that a bit dysregulated, a bit tired after a long day at school, I remember that having a real positive effect that, you know, four o'clock sound the safer after the school run.

[00:08:26] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So we, we talked about the last feed, which was the 10 and 10 this morning. Mm-hmm. Is every feed at 10 and 10 or just depends on how you're feeling? 

[00:08:34] Madeleine: No, he will sometimes ask for 10 and 10. Um, sometimes he asks for a feed and I offer a 10 and 10, and he always says yes. I think that's him understanding that 10 and 10 is what's offered, and it's either that or nothing.

But sometimes we don't count to 10 and he just feeds for as long as he wants to. Okay. But they're never long feeds anymore. You know, they're probably max, maximum a minute each side. 

[00:08:56] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. And what's a sort of typical 24 hours? Let's pick a weekend day, let's say Sunday. Okay. What's a typical feeding pattern on a Sunday?

[00:09:05] Madeleine: The morning feed if, because we are not rushing out the house. So generally on a weekend, the morning feed happens in bed and then we kind of get up and we'll often have errands to run a supermarket, sharp and all of that usual family life. Um, I might go on a run, my husband might go on a bike ride. Um, and so one of us will take Peter and do, you know, go out for a walk, go do the supermarket shop with him.

We'd like trips out. My husband's great at finding local museums and points of interest and stuff, so we'll, we'll visit family. Um, and he may sometimes ask for a feed in the afternoon, sometimes the afternoon when he possibly would've previously had a nap. We might sit and have a quick cuddle and a quick feed, but that's becoming less and less.

But what is still quite consistent is that he asks for a feed before bed. So we tend to do bedtime somewhere between seven and eight. It's very variable, but, and it depends on the day that we've had and how early we got up and how busy we've been, and just when he's sharing signs of being tired. Um, but one of the last things that we'll do before bed quite frequently is have a feed.

And again, that will probably just be 10 and 10. 

[00:10:10] Emma Pickett: Okay. So he is not feeling falling asleep on the breast. He's then getting into his bed and he's in his own room. Is that, how long has he been in his own room? 

[00:10:18] Madeleine: We moved house in December, so 11 months ago. And it was then after we moved house that we transitioned him into his own room because he got this new.

Big room with a double bed and you know, we put pictures up on the wall and he had all his books and toys. So it was quite an exciting thing for him to have his own room. He did have his own room in our old house, but it was only the second bedroom, so it was also used as the spare room in the office and everything else.

Um, and he, he never once slept in it in the three and a half years that he had it. So we trans, we made that transition and, um, we still do bedtime as a family, as the three of us. So my husband and I. We lie with him. We do stories. He has some mummy milk. Um, we turn off the light and then I sing him a few songs and normally by the end of the third song, he's asleep.

But we are with him and we are li we are lying with him. That's the beauty of him having a double bed. Yeah. And so he gets, he gets cuddled to sleep now. 

[00:11:11] Emma Pickett: Yeah. There's nothing to be, I mean, double beds in kids' rooms are absolutely lifesaver. The people that have the little tiny little toddler beds that look like Ferraris or something, I'm like, mate, that looks great for five minutes.

But, and if you've got a breastfeeding toddler, I guarantee there's nothing like a, a low bed or a floor bed. 

[00:11:27] Madeleine: And it's great because then it means that if we do have additional visitors that exceed our spare room, so we've got, we've got a three bed house. So Peter then comes back in with us for the whole night.

We've got his room as a spare room and the spare room so we can have up to four guests. 

[00:11:42] Emma Pickett: Yeah, very handy. So when you moved house and you set up his room, did you, I'm just, 'cause there are some people listening to this going, oh ooh, how did she stop co-sleeping? How did that work? Um, so some people would say, oh, you're moving house.

Surely that's not a time to make a change. I actually really think it can be super handy to do it then, because for them it's a very obvious fresh start. Mm-hmm. And, and as long as they know that you are available and they're not being left alone and that you're emotionally available. They're often quite excited about a new room and a new house, and it works really well.

Mm-hmm. So from that first night, was it kind of like, this is your room, this is where you're sleeping? How did you, how did you do it? No, 

[00:12:18] Madeleine: it wasn't the first night. Um, he was in with us the first night. I'm trying to think back to it. I think there actually wasn't a bed in his room initially. Or no, there was a single bed in his room initially, the single bed that we brought from our old house, um, which he'd never slept in.

So it was then when we moved the beds around. So we got a new double bed in our room and our old double bed went into his room. So it was at that point that that room became his okay. And it had this big bed and I think because it was the bed that he'd always slept in, 'cause it had been in our room. It was like, well, you're still in the same bed.

And we were still there doing exactly the same bedtime routine with mommy and daddy there. And we'd always, you know, since he was maybe two. We'd done that thing where I'd fed him to sleep at that age, but then rolled away and then I stopped feeding him to sleep. But I still lay with him and, and then rolled away and went downstairs and did a bit of my evening so that nothing really changed for him.

Same bed, same bedtime routine, same way of getting to sleep. Same people there. Just a different room. Yeah. And we are literally across the corridor from him, so we knew exactly how to come and find us. And the first few nights he kind of cried in bed and we went to get him and he brought him into our bed.

But then after a while, he just started appearing in bed with us, and it's like, now we don't even wake up, you know, it's just, it's like, oh, it's the alarm's going off. It's half past six. And oh, he's there. 

[00:13:39] Emma Pickett: I love the way you said at the beginning. He trots through there is that, there's that little, there's nothing like that.

The little co-sleeping trot is, is so gorgeous. 'cause it's a little person who, who knows they're gonna be welcome. They know. Yeah. They know That's a safe space. There's no kind of, mommy, can I come in? Or nervousness or fear of your reaction. It's a little person who knows that these people are here for me.

Yeah. I need them and they are absolutely my team and, and I'm gonna get in bed with 'em and everyone's okay. Not to say that, you know, if it doesn't work for you, obviously as a family, there are loving ways to reduce that, but mm-hmm. For him it's just like, yeah, this is my space too. Um, so if he comes in at 10 o'clock, you've got a big enough bed that it's okay.

There's no sense of Ong, let's try and get back in his room again. 

[00:14:21] Madeleine: I've never, once he's through to us, I've never once tried to take him back. And sometimes he comes through whilst we're still awake. 'cause if it is 10 o'clock we could be still awake. And that's why I call it the truck 'cause I can hear it and it sounds like a truck.

'cause we've got wooden floors. And so I hear him climb down from his bed in his room and that little pad of his little feet and then this creek of the door across the landing. And then he just appears. 

[00:14:44] Emma Pickett: And he just crawls it. He's probably quite handy. I mean, I'm not going to ask for intimate details, but as, as a couple, if you're having any couple time that, imagine that being able to hear him approach, 

[00:14:53] Madeleine: that's never happened actually.

Um, yeah, it's, but he just, I don't, yeah, like what you said about him, just knowing that we are there and my husband and I, when we. When he was a bit younger and then once we kind of started talking about that, you know, maybe we should try him in his own room for a bit. One of the things that we both agreed on, and it was really nice that we had this agreement and there was no dis, it was just how we both knew we wanted to parent, was that if he wanted to come and get into our bed with us, he was al.

He would always be welcome. You know, even once he's older, if he needs that comfort of his parents because he's had a bad dream or he is worried about something, he would always be welcome. And I think that's partly because of our experiences when we were children of always being welcome in our parents' bed and remembering that, the comfort that that brought.

[00:15:41] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I remember going up to see my 

[00:15:44] Madeleine: mom, you know, if I'd woken up and I was worried about something, or if I was feeling a bit unwell. And there'd be a bit of musical beds. So my dad, you know, 'cause I, if I was older, my dad would pop, you know, would've gone and slept in my bed, but I'd crawl into bed with my mum.

And that I immediate sense of, of relief, I remember it, you know, being maybe seven or eight years old and, and sleeping next to my mum and feeling safe. Yeah. And I would never want to deny Peter that. Aw, 

[00:16:09] Emma Pickett: that's really sweet. And actually, before we started recording, you told me what special relationship with ha you have with your mom who happens to be visiting you today.

Yes. So it's really clear that what you'd start when people are little is what is what continues. Um, when was the last time Peter had a feed in the nighttime? 

[00:16:24] Madeleine: He accidentally fed a few months ago in the night. Lovely ally, what? You were woke up and Whoa. Sort of just, well, there's been a few times where I've like, how did you get there?

How are you latched on? And he's just figured it out himself. Um, and then there have been other times where he's asked for a feed and I fed him and I've gone, hang on a minute. It's two o'clock in the morning. 

[00:16:43] Emma Pickett: So when you say accidental, that was, that was months ago. Did you say? That was really a long time ago.

Probably within the last six months. 

[00:16:50] Madeleine: I, we did do some active night weaning in Autumn last year. So kind of September, October, 2024. So he was three at that point. Three in a bit. 

[00:16:58] Emma Pickett: How did that go? Tell us what you did and how did it go? 

[00:17:00] Madeleine: Um, sort of. Winged it, um, didn't really, I read, you know, read a lot online and lots of different kind of techniques and plans and stuff, and I just thought, I'm sure a lot of those things kind of work really, really well for some families.

But for me, I was just like, you know, I'm just gonna wing it and just see what happens. And basically my, my approach was just delay the first feed. So whenever he woke up and asked for that first feed, be it 10 or 11 o'clock, often, I would just say, well, we're just gonna have a cuddle for now. And you can have some mummy milk later.

And then eventually the first feed wasn't happening until half past 10, and then it was 11 o'clock. And just gradually, gradually, gradually it got pushed back until all of a sudden it was five o'clock in the morning. Okay. And he just started becoming more and more accepting of the cuddles, the drink of water instead.

And it took, it was a really, really slow process. It probably took a couple good couple of months until we were consistently not feeding until five o'clock in the morning and sometimes it was four o'clock in the morning. 'cause I just knew that if I didn't feed him, we'd be awake. Um. And then, and, and thing is as well, nothing really changed that much with his sleep.

He was still waking, but that was okay. Um, and I knew that that was a possibility. But for me, the reason I wanted tonight ween was just kind of that I was just starting to get that feeling of being quite touched out. Um, and I knew that if I wanted to make breastfeeding sustainable longer term, which I did, um, something was gonna have to change.

So changing the, the nighttime pattern for me was preferable to changing the daytime pattern. 

[00:18:30] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:18:31] Madeleine: And so that's what I did. 

[00:18:32] Emma Pickett: So it's interesting you're saying to him, not right now, Peter, we're gonna, you know, let's have a cuddle now. We'll have that later. Mm-hmm. And that's kind of a little bit what you.

What you were sometimes doing in the day. So sometimes in, so it's, it's, I hear what you're saying about you didn't wanna change patterns in the day, but in the day you had been modeling self-care, you had been modeling, you know, we're not gonna have a feed right now. Um, so, so to bring that into the nighttime, it wasn't coming outta the blue, it wasn't sort of coming out.

Yeah. 

[00:18:59] Madeleine: I think in the daytime they were much the, at that stage when he was just three, it was more, the daytime feeds were being delayed for practical reasons. It was because we didn't have time to do it. We had to be somewhere. Rather than from my own needs. Okay. So it was slightly different that at nighttime I had no, no real practical excuse other than what I was wanting.

[00:19:20] Emma Pickett: Okay. And how did he react to that? Did you have some really tough moments where he was very desperately asking? Yes, 

[00:19:27] Madeleine: especially initially, especially within the first couple of weeks. But I remember thinking, you know, in the long run I think this is gonna benefit us both 'cause it's gonna make this whole thing more sustainable.

And I, I, and I. It's so difficult to know in hindsight, but I think if I had kept feeding overnight and having that touched out feeling, I wonder whether we would've, whether we would be not, wouldn't be feeding as we are now. 

[00:19:50] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:19:51] Madeleine: Um, so I think it has just made it sustainable for me in the longer run.

[00:19:55] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:19:55] Madeleine: Um, so yeah, it was, it was difficult. There were definitely tears. I think there were tears from me as well at points thinking, oh my God, am I doing the right thing? Is this the right decision? But my husband was, you know, incredibly supportive. He was willing to be there overnight and to try and help settle Peter when, when he was screaming for mummy milk and stuff.

Um, okay. 

[00:20:14] Emma Pickett: Okay. So very practical question. Um, obviously what you did absolutely worked and, and you knew him and it, you nailed it. But I'm just curious as to, in those moments where, so you're talking about delaying the feed, does that mean that when he was super frantic. Sometimes you go, okay, we're, we're not gonna get past 1130 tonight.

Get it? I'm gonna feed. So you were, you can see where I'm going. So you're feeding him in his most frantic moments or were you waiting for him to calm before you can, yeah. Okay. Waiting 

[00:20:42] Madeleine: for him to calm. So in those frantic moments, what I would often have done is just been there, held space, allowed him to kind of just work it out with us there.

And often he then fell back asleep and so then it was at the next wake that I fed. 

[00:20:55] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That makes perfect sense to me. I, I'm, I guess you're probably gonna say that otherwise it wouldn't have worked. Um, because he'd never had a sense that if I really hold out and scream my head off, she's gonna feed me.

Yeah. So you so you weren't doing that. 

[00:21:06] Madeleine: Yeah. That was my thinking at the time. If I, if I feed him when he is like this, that this is gonna become a pattern. 

[00:21:11] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:21:12] Madeleine: Whereas allowing him to kind of get used to, and he wouldn't have gotten used to those other comfort measures. The cuddles and the songs and everything else.

Whereas, 

[00:21:21] Emma Pickett: yeah, 

[00:21:23] Madeleine: so I think, I think, I think it was the right, it's so difficult to know, isn't it? But it ended up working for us. It well, it worked. It worked. You're in a great place now. And 

[00:21:30] Emma Pickett: and you mentioned sort of five o'clock is sort of your threshold in your head. Is that still the case that you think of?

Five o'clock as being the morning? 

[00:21:37] Madeleine: Yes, because some days I get up for work at five o'clock, so for me, that's when my alarm is set for. So it is very much the morning for me. Well, I say some twice a week. That's when my alarm is set. Okay. That's quite early. What do you do for work? I'm a public health doctor.

Okay. Okay. Um, and although I live in Leeds, I work in Merseyside. 

[00:21:55] Emma Pickett: Oh, okay. Bit of a drive. 

[00:21:57] Madeleine: I get the 

[00:21:57] Emma Pickett: train, 

[00:21:58] Madeleine: but 

[00:21:58] Emma Pickett: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. So that is a, uh, yeah, that's an early start and an intense job. Um, so I can see why sleep would've been useful. Yeah. When did you, how old was Peter when you went back to work? 

[00:22:08] Madeleine: Um, well I went back to work in my old job, so I used to be an obstetrics and gynecology registrar.

Um, and then I changed pathways within the world of medicine in, thanks to my experience of breastfeeding. Um, so I went back to night shifts and long days and weekends, and that was when Peter was about 15 months old. Wows. Yeah, that is amazingly impressive. That, and I did that for, uh, two years and then, and then, and then moved into public health.

[00:22:35] Emma Pickett: Tell us about the experience of doing night shifts with a not yet night weaned, breastfeeding little person. I'm guessing that was when your husband particularly came into Yeah. And into his own. 

[00:22:45] Madeleine: It was really, really tough going, initially, it was really tough for all of us, but particularly for my husband and Peter.

Because I, I had been responsive feeding up until that point. I hadn't made any changes to how I fared in the run up to me going back to work. I'd kind of trusted in the process and with regards to him going to childcare, it just worked really, really well At childcare, he ate and drank like a trooper and we, you know, if I was at home of an evening, then we just had have a big, lovely feed when we were reunited of, of the evening after work and nursery.

Um, but night shifts were a different kettle of fish. Um, because Peter was feed, we were bed sharing, Peter was feeding frequently, overnight, and all of a sudden that changed. And I'd heard really positive stories from, you know, friends and colleagues who were also done shift work. And they said, oh, you know, because I wasn't there, my baby was just fine with daddy or, or grandma or whoever.

And, you know, they had, they had a cup of milk or they had a snack and they just settled back to sleep with some cuddles. Unfortunately, that was not the case for us. And I remember speaking to Mike and he said, you know, we've had two hours of screaming. 

[00:23:55] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:23:55] Madeleine: Um, which just because I was on a night shift didn't mean that Mike was excused from work the next day.

So he had to deal with those really, really tough nights and then go to work himself sometimes, you know, and he had quite an intense, stressful job as well. So it was really, really difficult. My thoughts on it were, and I think perhaps I was a bit selfish in this with regards to my husband, he had two really, you know, I only ever did like two or three nights a month 'cause of my working pattern and working less than full time.

[00:24:22] Emma Pickett: Yep. 

[00:24:23] Madeleine: So it was only two or three nights a month. And then the rest of the time, those other 27, 28 days. Nights I was feeding and doing the majority of the nighttime care. My husband was in bed with us, but he'd sleep through the night wakes. Yeah, yeah. And it would be me dealing with it. So I was like, well, I could change things now.

But then that makes it harder for both of us. For all 31 nights of the month. Yeah. 

[00:24:45] Emma Pickett: Three nights a week. Sorry. Three nights a month is a very different story from, you know, regularly night shifts, you know, week by week, by week. Yeah. And they 

[00:24:53] Madeleine: were, they were incredibly tough. I remember my husband calling me, it was probably two or three o'clock in the morning.

I was. In my scrubs on labor ward, about to take somebody to theater to do an emergency C-section. And he called me, he said, I dunno what to do, Mads. He's screaming, he's been screaming for two hours now and I can hear him in the background and I said, honestly, this is the least of my worries right now.

And it is not a me problem that I need to fix because there is literally nothing I can do because I have a labor ward full of women to care for. Okay. And so I was very blunt with him. I'm like, sorry, I, I was like, I'm sorry. You're just gonna have to find a solution. And I know it's hard and we can talk about longer term solutions when I'm home in the morning, but right now I can't do anything to help you.

[00:25:36] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:25:36] Madeleine: And that was, that was really hard for everybody, I think having that conversation. 

[00:25:39] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that is tough. That is tough. But, but. The fact that you are still breastfeeding now tells me that your husband is someone who, who heard that and didn't get defensive and freaked out and ask you to change your patterns overall.

And, and for three night shifts a month, it makes no logical sense to make permanent changes to patterns. Yeah. And, and probably the three nights a month also meant that his life was a bit harder 'cause neither of them got into a groove and there wasn't that kind of predictability about it as well. Yeah.

[00:26:07] Madeleine: Yeah. 

[00:26:08] Emma Pickett: Um, but it's, you know, it's testament to your husband's personality that he, he took that on the chin as it were, and heard that he really did. 

[00:26:14] Madeleine: And actually, aside from those really difficult nights, he's never once asked me to change anything about how I feed him. Yeah. You know, from, from, from when Peter was very, very first born, there was never, you know, he's always really just respected my wishes with how I've wanted to do things.

And that, you know, I realize how lucky I've been with that. It has been amazing. 

[00:26:35] Emma Pickett: Yeah, no, that is something to be celebrated through. Cheers. Um, for, for Mike? 

[00:26:40] Madeleine: Yeah. 

[00:26:41] Emma Pickett: I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got the story of Jesse's Milky, which is a picture book from two to six year olds that really tells the story of little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways.

Maybe there'll be a new baby sister, maybe his mom will need to practice parenthood weaning. Maybe he'll have a self. Weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we are there to support them through all of them.

And also we sometimes have needs to also on endings, we have supporting the transition from breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a. In a way that protects your emotional connection with your child. There are also chapters on different individual situations like weaning an older child when there's still a baby, feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation.

Then we have supporting breastfeeding past the first six months and beyond. That's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond. What are the common challenges and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding gym.

Me. Then we have the breast book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14 year olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is. I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives.

So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley press website. That's uk.jkp.com. Use the code mm PE 10. To get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful.

It really, really makes a difference and as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you. Just in terms of your breastfeeding journey, looking back at the, the early days Mm. Did you have lots of experience of natural term breastfeeding? Was it something you had friends and family that had done?

How did you sort of know? 

[00:28:56] Madeleine: My little sister, who's eight years younger than me, she was breastfed past her second birthday. So again, props to my mum. So you saw that with, I saw that lived. I remember that. Lived with, yeah. Yeah. And I've spoken recently to my mum about this in that. It is not a given for anybody because you know, breastfeeding is hard and you need the support.

But for me, when I was pregnant, when people asked me How are you planning to feed, the answer to me was obvious. It was always that I was planning to breastfeed. Obviously then, you know, you have your baby and you encounter a lot of the challenges that, that come with that as a new first time mom in this world of postpartum recovery and hormones and, um.

And everything and, and you've, you know, it's a bit of a, just a luck of the draw as to what support you get. We had challenges, Peter was jaundiced in that first week and we were readmitted to hospital with jaundice and put on a bit of a plan for triple feeding. But the community midwife that saw me at the day three visit and said, oh, maybe we do need to do a bilirubin check.

Maybe we do need to look at his weight. He'd lost 11% of his weight as well. She was the one that sat with me and said, well, this is how your hand express. This is a little cup that you can collect in. This is how you cup feed rather than here's a bottle of formula, which I know is the experience that other people got in exactly the same situation.

[00:30:19] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:30:20] Madeleine: And I had a breast pump in the cupboard. It wasn't a very good one, but it was there. And so I started pumping and then my milk came in day five or six. So a bit delayed, I think, possibly. 'cause I had a postpartum hemorrhage. But once my milk came in, my milk volumes came up. Peter was latching like a trooper.

And we sort of just went from strength to strength there. And the the top ups that we were doing just seemed to very quickly diminish. And we were able to just move to exclusive breastfeeding from that point. 

[00:30:48] Emma Pickett: Okay. Was there anything about your work that kind of made you feel differently about breastfeeding?

[00:30:54] Madeleine: I definitely had that attitude of, oh, I'm a doctor. I should know what I'm doing. I literally care for people in pregnancy and postpartum. This should be something I know about. And then I had my own baby and I was like, hang on a minute. I know nothing. Why wasn't I taught this at med school? Did you have any lactation training in your, in your training?

So I've gone back through my notes since having Peter since training as a breastfeeding peer supporter myself and since working with milk medics, lactation community. Um, and I found one PowerPoint slide in five years of med school notes wowses. And there may well have been other points. There may well have been other points, you know.

Paper that got thrown, thrown away or something. I've not got all of my notes, but, um, there's nothing else that I remember. I don't remember ever, ever being taught. 

[00:31:38] Emma Pickett: Okay. Yeah. That's pretty scary, isn't it? Hence why we need milk. Yeah. Um, we've talked about milk and a couple of other episodes. Podcast. I was gonna say, you podcast, you've 

[00:31:46] Madeleine: spoken with Naomi and Mariam.

I have. But for anyone 

[00:31:48] Emma Pickett: who didn't listen to those episodes, give, give us the, uh, the quick milk description. 

[00:31:52] Madeleine: Um, so milk is, uh, we've now announced that we are officially a registered charity. Yeah. Exciting. Yay. Um, so we're a charity, um, with the aim of providing peer support to doctors who are breastfeeding.

But also providing education and resources so that doctors who are caring for breastfeeding patients or breastfed patients can provide evidence-based, knowledgeable, supportive care, um, for their patients. Um, and the hope as well, that through both of those arms, through PRI providing peer support for doctors with their own journeys, plus the education, we just improve that culture within the medical field around, around infant feeding.

[00:32:33] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, I have come to feel that that is the most important thing in the country that we can do, actually. I, I actually think that transforming the way the medical community feel about breastfeeding is, is gonna make such a massive difference. Mm-hmm. Um, so thank you very much for, for the work you're doing with that quick, practical question.

You are doing night shifts. You're on labor ward, you are feeding a, you know, 13, 14, 15 month old. Mm-hmm. Are you expressing, how did, how did that go? 

[00:33:01] Madeleine: Initially, so long days and nights when I was out the house for 13 or 14 hours, I had to, because I was again uncomfortable and I was very lucky in that there were other doctors around who were happy to hold my bleep.

So they would take that off me and I would go and have 20 minutes and I would use the labor ward, hospital grade pump, um, and the milk kitchen. So there was fridge and bottles and labels and everything there, or everything I needed. But then that grew very quickly. Stopped because Peter never took a bottle.

He never took any expressed milk. He didn't like it. So I've still got all of that milk that I pumped in the freezer. I dunno what to do with it. Whatcha gonna 

[00:33:39] Emma Pickett: do with it? I know that's the million dollar question that's coming up for sort of three years old. Yeah. There will be some jewelry at some point.

Pointm. It's a very piece of jewelry. There was a, there was an artist that made a dress out of, of kind of milk beads. Maybe you just need an entire ball gown made out. There we go. 

[00:33:54] Madeleine: That's the plan. But yeah, because he wasn't taking it. And I did look at donating because the hospital that I was working in at the time had a milk bank.

But unfortunately I didn't meet the criteria. So I just very quickly wound down the expressing my body adapted. Um, I was getting less and less engorged on shifts, and so I stopped and it was, and it was fine. It was probably within the first three months that I stopped expressing, needing to express. 

[00:34:18] Emma Pickett: Yeah.

Yeah, that's lucky. 'cause I don't want to be doing a c-section in agony. Um, worrying about engorgement. That doesn't sound fun at all. You've talked about those very early days and, and the expressing and the topping up. Mm. Other than that, what would you say has been your toughest part of your breastfeeding journey?

[00:34:35] Madeleine: There's one day in particular that I recall so, so vividly, and I remember reaching out for support at the time because it was so, so brutal, and I can't tell you why. No, I can't tell you why it was sleep deprivation. Peter was about eight or nine months old and we were going through a really, really rough patch with sleep, and he was waking pretty much every hour overnight.

And we were already bed sharing, you know, already doing everything we felt we could possibly do as a family that was right for us. And I was so, so tired. And for some reason that one night in particular was just the worst it's ever, ever been. And I got the true, true aversion. To the point where, you know, it was that, it was that real sensation of I in the moment I wanted to throw him across the room.

I just wanted him away from me. That feeling of being touched, you know, it made my skin crawl. But then, 'cause he was so young, he was so. Used to feeding and loved the comfort from it. He, he was distraught that I couldn't go near him, so I wanted to feed him. It was that it was so difficult because I, I felt that draw that instinct to feed him, but then that skin crawling feed feeling to push him away, it was, it was, it was so weird having those two feelings simultaneously in the end, I was initially really embarrassed to admit this, but I think it's really important that I say it so other people know.

What can happen and, and that there is, that is really, and I found it really helpful speaking to people afterwards as well. But in the end, that night, I ended up essentially, I dunno, that self harm in a way, but as a way of distraction. I, I hit myself on the forehead okay. Repeatedly with my knuckle. Just, it wasn't, it wasn't that painful or anything, but it was just that form of distraction.

I bit, I bit my thumb just so I, I had something else to focus on. I'd already put an audio book on. I'd already tried watching something on the telly, but that didn't help 'cause that wake woke Peter up more. I tried other forms of distraction and in the end that was what I had to do to get through that night and it never happened again.

Um, 

[00:36:36] Emma Pickett: gosh, isn't that interesting? It was just one night. Isn't that 

[00:36:39] Madeleine: I got, I got other feelings of aversion. It was never that bad again. I think I spoke to my husband, you know, we spoke together in the cold light of day the next morning. And I said, I'm, I'm sure it was because I was so, so tired. Um, and so I got a bit more, he, he let me have a bit more sleep that day.

Um, I started taking some magnesium supplements and I think we just, we just focused on prioritizing my rest where we could. 'cause I think I was probably just burning the candle at both ends a little bit too much. Okay. You know, I was busy on mat leave. I was going out to baby classes, meeting moms of coffee, having a really nice time, having a really, really nice time.

I love being sociable and doing all of that stuff. But I think I, after that, I probably started spending a bit more time at home, still doing some of those things, but not quite as much. Roping my mum in for a bit more support. And you know, I still had feelings of aversion when I was really, really tired, but never quite to that extent.

And it was just really, really tough, and I'm really sad that it got to that point. But I'm also very pleased that it didn't happen again. 

[00:37:38] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, the fear of it happening again, did that kind of hang over you or you were able to let go of that? 

[00:37:44] Madeleine: I was definitely scared that it would happen again, but then as time went on, you know, it was a couple of weeks later and I thought, actually, no, things are feeling better.

And yeah, and I spoke to people, I, I, I reached out on, on a peer support group and, and I had, you know, kind, kind people coming back to me with so much reassurance and so much kindness. And just, and you know, a lot of people making sure that I was well from a mental health point of view, you know, checking in with symptoms of postnatal depression or postnatal anxiety signposting me to lots of places to support national breastfeeding helpline, my gp, my health visitor.

Um, so I think just knowing that I had that little community online and all those other places of support did something in my head as well to say, you know, you're not alone. There is help. Yeah. Reach out if you need it. 

[00:38:29] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So you mentioned that, that Mike, your husband's been a, a big support practically.

Yeah. And also in terms of the breastfeeding journey itself, um, and, and your mum was somebody at breastfed beyond babyhood. When you sort of got beyond two, which was her experience, was there any sense of, right, Madeleine, what's happening now? Are you gonna be given up? Was there, did you get pressure from anybody, is what I'm asking?

[00:38:51] Madeleine: Amazingly, no. And this is the thing I, I keep trying to think. I've had funny comments when I've been out in public from strangers, and that's upset me, but not from people that I know, and I think part of the reason is because I'm so vocal about it. I've done my breastfeeding, peer supporter training. I work with Mil.

They know how people who know me know how important it's to me. So it's like they wouldn't dare. Yeah. Um, and I just kind of like, you know, it, it is, it is part of me now. It matters. So if anybody were to, were to suggest changing something or stopping or, or whatever, they know that I'd bite their head off in return.

[00:39:29] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And not only would you bite their head off, but you'd know what you were talking about and you, you've got, you. I would educate them. Yeah. You mentioned having a negative experience in public. I'm so sorry to hear that. Um, yeah. Just for anyone, a couple of those, it's possible to not ever have a negative comment in public.

Yes. But, but you know, depends obviously, where you live and what breastfeeding rights are like, where you live and what's kind of normal when you're out and about. Can you describe one of those times for me, if that feels okay? 

[00:39:54] Madeleine: Um, this was probably the worst one. Um, we'd gone on a, a holiday, we'd, we'd gone down to Brighton to, for a friend's wedding and we'd sort of turned it into a long weekend.

Um, and we were getting the bus into Brighton from where we were staying and Peter was, I think he just turned three at the time. So you know, a visibly older child walking, talking and all of that. And I was sat on one side of the bus and I think we were heading back to the train station 'cause we had our suitcase with us.

So Mike was further away 'cause he was stood up with the suitcase. Peter asked for a feed, so I fed him on the bus, which was still really normal for us. And it is still normal for us actually to feed out and about in public. If, if we both, if we both want to feed, then we will do it in public. We'll do it wherever we are even now.

And yeah, this time it just happened to be on the bus and there was an older man sat next to Mike and I'll tell, I don't actually know what was said and Mike isn't entirely sure what was said, 'cause he said the man wasn't very, wasn't that clear to understand. What was obvious was his body language and the hand signals that he was making and where he was looking.

And he was looking at me and Peter and he was making gestures and asking Mike, 'cause it was Mike and I had been kind of talking to each other across people on the bus. So it was clear that that was my husband. And like I said, I dunno what was said, but the, the implications were there that this person shouldn't be doing that.

That's strange. That's weird. And we got off the bus at our stop and I sort of held it together in public. And as soon as I stepped off the bus, I burst into tears. And Mike was so apologetic because he felt he should have said something to this man. And he felt I, you know, I think he felt like he should have stood up for me.

But again, it was difficult 'cause he couldn't quite hear what he was saying properly. But Mike was really reassuring and he said, you know, you've not done anything wrong. It's great that you're still feeding Peter. He was just so supportive as he always has been. Has, 

[00:41:39] Emma Pickett: yeah. Good. Good for him. You know, because people get embarrassed and people blurt out things they don't mean, and, you know, and, and even a supportive husband in that moment may have had a flinch of all, crikey.

That was uncomfortable for me. Mm-hmm. But. Totally focused on, you totally focused on making sure you, you were okay. Yeah. And he said, we've 

[00:41:56] Madeleine: got age. Yeah. We, you know, he was like, we've got ages before train. Should we go and get a coffee and, and sit and have calmed down and stuff? And he just, he just looked after me.

So, yeah, I was, I was really, it just, it just threw me, it was the first time it had happened, you know, I'd gone three years without having a negative, a negative comment. And it like, it wasn't even a comment, it was just, it's just the way somebody looks at you sometimes and it's a stranger. It's a, it is an old man.

Like what do I care? Yeahinteresting. It's very well me looking, looking back at it now, I can say all of these things. 

[00:42:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah, there's something about being on a bus. I think it's quite, it kind of, it's claustrophobic. Yeah, exactly. It's that it kind of stuck together. You can't go anywhere. They're not going anywhere.

It's, it's quite intense, isn't it? It's a weird kind of public, um, I wonder, yeah, if it had been on a bench in a park, you know, he'd have. Pushed him away and he'd have kept walking. But there's something about him being stuck right there, which makes it feel different, I think. 

[00:42:44] Madeleine: Yeah, I've definitely had that reflection as well.

And, and the second time it happened, it was out and about. We were outside a cafe and it was very different because it was that open space and there was, you know, almost like an escape route. But no on the whole feeding in public has always been something, always been something that I've done, always been something that I've wanted to do, especially with an older child, just to give it that visibility.

[00:43:04] Emma Pickett: You're amazing, Madeleine. I'm so, I'm, I mean, let's just pause for a minute. That is really special. I mean, you are making changes to people's attitudes and you know, even the person that just walks past and gives you a glance, you're, they're absorbing that as part 

[00:43:19] Madeleine: of their environment. 

[00:43:20] Emma Pickett: The thing 

[00:43:20] Madeleine: that I see and the thing that I'm most proud of is children walking past and seeing it.

[00:43:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:43:25] Madeleine: You know, a, a young girl who might be nine or 10 years old, perhaps if she sees that, that could potentially influence her when she has her own children. That's my hope. Yeah. You know, 

[00:43:37] Emma Pickett: well, I, I'm confident that is the case and you know, when they, anyone who, who looks at you will see that, that connection between you and that's a mother nurturing a child.

You know, you, if you look at that with neutral eyes, which will come from, from the eyes of a child, and no one can ever see that as a negative thing. It's when you look at it through adult eyes, sexualized eyes, eyes that are struggling with their own triggering and, and traumas and, and mm-hmm. Those are the eyes that struggle, um, not the eyes of, of little girls.

What do you think the next six months will bring? What do you, what's your sense of the sort of trajectory of, of Peter's feeding? 

[00:44:11] Madeleine: I would love for us to get to age five. Um, I have started to note. That his latch is perhaps changing a little bit as he grows and as he gets older, but it's not consistent at the moment.

Things are still very comfortable for me. He's still asking for milk frequently, but then I know that he is, he is getting older. He's well within the, the age now of natural term weaning. So for me, I'm. My, my mindset is we just go with the flow and we just see what happens. I'm not wanting to make any significant changes at the moment.

Obviously if something crops up, then I will do, but, but no, this is, this is, this is how we're going now. And we'll just see, just see what, see what happens. 

[00:44:53] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, your sort of identity as a mother is, is. Much more than breastfeeding, but yet breastfeeding has become a big part of, of your passion and obviously your work and your volunteering and, and you know, I, I went through that phase of ending breastfeeding, but staying in 

[00:45:09] Madeleine: the world, it's become part of me now, I think even once I am a little bit worried.

'cause I see, you know, um, people train as peer supporters and that's what they do for that phase of their life. And I've made some really good friends and you know, still am friends with people that, but they've moved away from being peer supporters because their own children are now. 4, 5, 6 years old. And I've stopped breastfeeding.

I think I've committed so much now that, you know, I've changed my career. I've founded this, uh, co-founded this, this amazing charity. Like I think it's with me now. So whatever happens with my own experie experience. 

[00:45:42] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean there are obviously some people who are super useful in the world of peer support, who, you know, while they're on maternity.

Absolutely. Yeah. They train and they volunteer, they're vital and they're back at work, and then breastfeeding sort of leaves their consciousness. I think breastfeeding is tattooed on your consciousness. You're not going anywhere. 

[00:45:56] Madeleine: Well, I spoke to my mum yesterday, one of my 40 before 40 things is a tattoo, and it will be about breastfeeding.

[00:46:02] Emma Pickett: Aw. Yeah. I, I like a good tattoo. I did a little series on breastfeeding tattoos, um, not very long ago. Yeah. My first tattoo was a, was a breastfeeding related one, so I, I connect to that. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah. So you don't feel nervous at the idea of letting go of breastfeeding because you know it's gonna be right for Peter when it happens, or is there a moment of, Ooh, what's that gonna feel like?

[00:46:23] Madeleine: I think I'll be really sad when it comes to an end. But not nervous. Um, I think one of the reasons in particular I'm gonna be sad is because Peter is our only child and will be our only child. Um, we are not planning any seconds. We, we are very, very happy as a family of three, that's absolutely the right thing for us, but part of me is sad that I won't have that experience again.

So once he stops feeding, then that is it. Yeah. So I will, I will be really, really sad, but I'm sure I will look back at it as such a positive thing for us. As a family and you know, all of these amazing things that it's brought us, I'm hoping that because of where we are with his age and his understanding that whenever it comes, we will have made that transition into that other way of parenting.

So we'll both, you know, we'll all learn how to parent without breastfeeding. Um, it happens 

[00:47:12] Emma Pickett: gradually. You're already doing it. Yeah. That's it. You're already parenting at night without it. Yeah. You know, you're already connecting. Without it, it just, it happens organically. It's not something we necessarily have to sit down and think about.

Just on a kind of practical note, are you a photo taker? Are you a, a journaler? Are you a, I'm just thinking that if this is a moment in your life that you're going to want to be able to look back on. Yeah. And, and busy lives whiz past. Are you, do you have photos of feeding? Do you have I do memories, yeah.

[00:47:38] Madeleine: Um, when Peter turned two, so literally just a couple of days after his second birthday. It was my birthday a few weeks before for my birthday. My husband bought as a family photo shoot, and I purposely booked a photographer who did family shoots, but also did breastfeeding shoots. And I said to her, I said, can we combine?

Can we do a family shoot with some breastfeeding photos? So that was almost like, um, my, my, you know, is it diamond At two years? My diamond booby present to myself. So I have some absolutely beautiful photos of Peter feeding just a couple of days after his second birthday. Oh, that's gorgeous. Um, in the garden at our old home, it was June, so we were surrounded by flowers.

Um, and, you know, there's a, there's one in particular where he's laughing mid feed and it's. Jess his, and he's, and all he is wearing is a nappy. He's just got his big, he's got a big cloth nappy on, and otherwise he's naked and it's, oh, it's one. It's one of my favorite photos ever. 

[00:48:36] Emma Pickett: Oh, that sounds gorgeous.

Yeah. Yeah. That's special. That is a lovely thing to have. Yeah. So many people get to the end and go, oh, hang on. I haven't taken any photos of, of this and then, oops. Um, so it's good to have those, those, those concrete. Yeah. But we do, 

[00:48:48] Madeleine: we do just have a, you know, sometimes if you, we are just feeding on the sofa.

I'll wilt my phone out and we'll just have a little feeding selfie. 

[00:48:55] Emma Pickett: I think they call it bra fees. That's what I've heard someone. Okay. But you can call it wherever you like and us see, I dunno, that's about some Ted lasso. Um. I'm so, I'm so honored to have heard your story today, Madeleine. I'm, I'm really, really grateful for you sharing your experiences.

Is there anything that we haven't covered? If you would imagine someone listening to this who's feeding a 2-year-old thinking, okay, I just wanna hear what this sounds like. What messages would you want to give to that person? 

[00:49:18] Madeleine: I think when I was feeding a, a one yearold and then a 2-year-old and a than a 3-year-old, for me, it was like, I, I did start thinking, oh gosh, what if this keeps going on for longer?

And actually there was no looking back on it now there, it didn't really help thinking what is it gonna be like in a year's time? Because what, all I really need to know is what's it gonna be like tomorrow? The only reason we've gotten here is because it has just been one day at a time. There has been no huge leaps.

Everything has happened so gradually and it is all just been one day at a time. And that's how things have changed. There's been no, nothing drastic, nothing dramatic. It's just happened the way it has. And I'm so, so grateful that I found the online community that I did when Peter was young, because it was that group of people.

I met people there when Peter was just a, you know, a few days, few months old who were feeding 2, 3, 4, 5 year olds. So from the off it was like, oh, this is a thing. I could do this. So if you, if you are feeding an older child, I'd say surround yourself with other people. There's that excellent Facebook group, breastfeeding, older babies and beyond.

[00:50:22] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:50:22] Madeleine: Which I'm a member of. And, you know, there's, there's so many people on there doing such amazing things and just normalizing it. So if you are feeding a one or a 2-year-old, then get yourself on there. I would say just so you've got that kind of normality and know that it, it all just does come with, with one day at a time.

[00:50:40] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I think one day at a time is the kind of motto of natural breastfeeding, isn't it? It's not like, you know, we don't sign contracts, so we're gonna feed for 3, 4, 5 years. It just, our child has a need and this feels like the right thing to do. And you know, the, the fact a day's gone by makes no difference.

Thank you so much, Madeleine. I think you're bloody amazing. Thank you. The, the diamond booby thing, I'm, I never remember those awards. I, I never remember where they come from. And do you, where are you now? Do you know what the four year one is? I don't even know. 

[00:51:09] Madeleine: Amethyst. I think three is sapphire and four is amethyst.

I think so. I mean, I think I need some jewelry, 

[00:51:20] Emma Pickett: something like that. Yes. I think that's, I think not necessarily breast milk jewelry, but maybe we can have a piece that combine just jewelry, amethyst with breast milk jewelry in general. Yeah, I think you definitely earned some jewelry. That's for damn sure.

Um, thank you so much for your time today. I will put links in the show notes about Thank you for having me Milk. So that's MILC. And, um, we'll make sure people can find that, um, especially if they're coming from a, from a doctor perspective and, uh, and breastfeeding older babies and beyond. You can find on Facebook if you just put a search in the, in the Facebook search.

Thank you so much for your time today, and good luck with the rest of your breastfeeding journey. 

[00:51:53] Madeleine: Thank you, Emma. Thank you.

[00:51:59] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.