Breastfeeding a 4 year old with Stella and Michelle

This week, I’m speaking to the wonderful Stella and Michelle, about breastfeeding their 4 year old nurslings. They delve into the challenges, societal perceptions, and personal boundaries set throughout their journeys. Both emphasize the importance of following your instincts, setting limits, and maintaining emotional connections. They highlight the misconceptions around breastfeeding older children and offer valuable advice on dealing with judgemental relatives, starting school and breastfeeding manners with older children.

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. As you'll have seen from the title we're talking about breastfeeding four year olds and painting the picture of everyday life. How incredibly normal and uninteresting it is. But also may be interesting for you if this isn't where you are in your breastfeeding journey and you'd like to hear from other people who are experiencing this stage.

So I'm gonna be talking to Stella and Michelle and there's, this is a little series where I'm talking to people who are breastfeeding, three year olds and four year olds and five year olds. And there are some questions that will be the same in all those episodes, but obviously these are individual stories too.

Thank you very much for joining me, both of you. I really appreciate it. Let's start with you, Stella. Tell us a little bit about you and your family. 

[00:01:27] Stella: Yeah, so the child I am currently breastfeeding. She's called Ada. She will be five in four weeks of four weeks from today. She'll be five. I have an older daughter, Iris, who's 13 and a half.

I breastfed her as well and only until she was 18 months old. So we live in Manchester, although I'm obviously Scottish and uh, live with my husbands and we've got a little dog as well. Who was there? Juanita was born. Aw, that's so cute. 

[00:01:57] Emma Pickett: You're paint painting a picture of a, a lovely home birth. Either that you snuck him into the hospital.

I don't wanna make, want to make assumptions. Yeah, yeah. Ho home birth. 

[00:02:05] Michelle: Yeah. 

[00:02:05] Emma Pickett: Oh, cute. Uh, Michelle, tell us about your family. 

[00:02:08] Michelle: I'm Michelle. I have, um, one child called Leo. He is, uh, four at the moment. His birthday will be in April, so he'll be soon to be five, um, next year as well. So yeah, just the first child at the moment and um, yeah, we'll see what goes from there.

But yeah, we just had, um, a hospital birth, so no, no cats present at mine. 

[00:02:31] Emma Pickett: No cats or dogs that you are aware of and hopefully no other animals that you weren't aware of. I think British hospitals are fairly rodent free. Um, okay. So thanks very much for painting that story. So it's interesting to hear, Stella, that you had that different experience with Iris and Ada and, and lovely big gap between them as well.

Yeah. So when you came to breastfeed ada, did you have goals in mind? Did you think, oh, I've got to get to 18 months like I did with Iris? What were you thinking about your goals with your second journey? 

[00:03:00] Stella: Mm, with both my children, I was very much of the mindset is I, I will breastfeed them, um, that I'm, I'm quite stubborn.

And to me I was like, that is the only option. They'd be, they'd be breastfed and that's it. With both of them, I wanted to do natural term and I did believe at the time that Iris was natural term, but then listening and learning more from your podcast over the last couple of years, I probably realized with Iris that it probably wasn't quite natural term in the true stents of the word or the concept.

Um, but that was always my goal with both my daughters was to feed them as long as they wanted and as long as it worked for, for us. Um, but Ada, to use your term, is a booby monster, so she is still going strong at age almost five. 

[00:03:52] Emma Pickett: So it's interesting you talk about Iris maybe not being natural term. I'm, I'm so nervous about these conversations 'cause I think it's really important that we don't kind of gatekeep that term.

Um, I took interviewed one mum for one of my recent books who her child weaned not long after 12 months, and she'd always really held that to her heart and, and felt it was a child-led ending and then did her peer support training, which told her that's impossible. Absolutely can't be child-led at that age.

Um, and she just felt awful that she'd kind of, you know, had this kind of misguided impression. I think it is possible for a child to end breastfeeding naturally themselves at 18 months, I think. I think that can be natural term breastfeeding. But you, you are not feeling that about Iris's journey. I know we're not here necessarily focusing on Iris's journey.

Yeah. But I'm just curious about your thinking behind that. Why do you feel maybe it wasn't her decision? 

[00:04:41] Stella: First of all, I would say that like, it's not something I'm beating myself up, up about at all. Good. Um, I'll only look back on myself and Iris's breastfeeding journey, uh, fondly. Um, I think it's amazing.

But I think, I suppose like any breastfeeding journey, it's not just about the baby. It's the, it's the, the mother and the wisest family. It's the relationship between everybody and that's how it should be. And I think it was maybe just because my work situation increased. Um, there were some evenings that I would have to be away from Iris, so dad would put her to bed.

So she dropped the bedtime breastfeed. She wasn't upset about it, but that was, that was led by me, not her. Really, when you think about it, it wasn't it. But then the very last feed that she dropped was the first thing in the morning feed. And it was how it dropped out. So I suppose it was, it, it was a two-way thing and I think it's always gonna be a two-way thing, isn't it?

[00:05:30] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. That's what I often say. I think it's a myth that there's this kind of pure child-led weaning unless, yeah, we live in a cottage in the forest and we are billionaires and we don't have to earn a living. Everyone is gonna have to go to work or you know, wants to see friends or wants to have a life and someone else does bedtime.

And there's always a bit of give and take. So I think, I think we have to be really careful not to kind of idealize the kind of concept of pure child led weaning. And anything less than that is kind of contaminated some way. Of course. Yeah. Um, so I'm really glad to hear that you don't feel that you, you know, anything negative about Iris's journey.

'cause it's something to be super proud of. ADA's obviously on a different level and ramped up a little bit in terms of her enthusiasm. So I'm just gonna ask both of you a very simple question. First of all, I'd like you to paint the picture of your last breastfeed. So it's 11 o'clock in the morning, now it's a Monday morning.

When was the last feed that you had with your child? Describe what the circumstances were. So Michelle, let's start with you. 

[00:06:26] Michelle: Yeah, so I think it was actually surprisingly a couple of days ago now, probably, oh, Thursday night maybe. And it was just a case of we'd done bedtime stories, very quiet in bed, nice and calm, and then usually I kind of have a little cuddle before sleep.

He's lying next to me. We've got a big floor bed for him and he just always turns to me and just goes, mommy milk. So obviously we, we go through that and um, it's just literally a couple of minutes latched and then it's kind of, he's off asleep. Is done where everyone's asleep. And I, I kind of lie there in a nice, calm state in the dark for a while.

[00:07:09] Emma Pickett: So, so today's Monday, that was Thursday, so not a couple days ago. That's more like four days ago. Yeah. Losing 

[00:07:15] Michelle: track of the 

[00:07:15] Emma Pickett: time, right. You were allowed to lose track of the time. I'm just kind of curious as to what I'm, what was the feed before that one, before that Thursday night feed? 

[00:07:23] Michelle: Um, it's been consistently every night unless I am out of the house and it's, my husband does, um, bedtime.

So prior to that, it's been every night consistently for a long time. Um, there's been odd occasions where he might not ask, it'd be too tired, but most of the time he will consistently ask at bedtime for a feed to sleep. The last two or three nights he hasn't. Haven't asked, just rolled over, gone 

[00:07:50] Emma Pickett: to 

[00:07:50] Michelle: sleep.

Oh 

[00:07:51] Emma Pickett: gosh. Could we be having this podcast on, on a monumental day? Like, although anyone who has what Fed child at the children at this age knows that sometimes they will skip a few days. Absolutely. Yeah. What's your feeling? What, what do you think's going on? 

[00:08:05] Michelle: I don't think it's the end. I don't think it's the end.

Um, is, is very occasionally gone. A few days without, not often at all. You know, similarly mentioned. Food monster. He, he loves it. Um, but yeah, it's, it's the first time we've had a bigger gap a few days I think 

[00:08:24] Emma Pickett: this time, so. 

[00:08:25] Michelle: Okay. We'll see. 

[00:08:27] Emma Pickett: And how are you feeling about that emotionally? Do you, have you noticed any change?

Some people do notice even with a gap of three or four days, they suddenly feel a little bit emotionally wobbly. Have you noticed anything yourself? How are you feeling emotionally? 

[00:08:39] Michelle: Um, not 

[00:08:39] Emma Pickett: this time. I 

[00:08:40] Michelle: think if it was to happen, I'd feel ready. Um, and yeah, I've gone through kind of, you know, when feeds did reduce in terms of daytime feeds, I definitely noticed more of a hormone drop then.

Um, but at the moment, no. Just everything is calm and peaceful. 

[00:08:56] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. So when you're doing bedtime at the moment, like just thinking about last night's bedtime, you're just, just doing a cuddle and he is just not asking for a feed. Yep. 

[00:09:07] Michelle: That's it. Yeah, he's just turned over, got his little teddy turned over from me yesterday.

He did ask for a cuddle. Absolutely fine. So yeah. And then he just snuggled in and 

[00:09:18] Emma Pickett: drifted off. And if that had, if that had to been your last feed on Thursday, how does that feel? I think that's quite strange 

[00:09:26] Michelle: because it passes without occasion. Whereas, you know, if you are, um, maybe, you know, you're leading the ween in yourself, you might try and implement some of the, you know, wean in celebrations or, you know, make a story about it.

But I think at this age, if that is how, how it truly ends, it feels a little bit strange to have kind of gone through this such big journey to get where you are. And then it just to kind of. Fizzle out. Just feels strange. I think. 

[00:09:55] Emma Pickett: Let's not say fizzle out. Let's fizzle out, let's say come to a gentle, beautiful ending.

Exactly. I listen, I'm not saying it, it is the ending. 'cause as you're absolutely right, you're absolutely right to point out. Sometimes, um, chaps at this age do go a few days, but I'm just curious if it was the last feed, what you're saying, what you're saying is really interesting about how people. Often associate endings with, you know, weaning rituals and, and mm-hmm.

Making books and making an event out of it. And I've had sometimes people contact to me and going, oh, it looks like they've self weaned. Should I do a, a weaning party? Should I make a big thing out of it? And I, and I often say, well, probably not, just because I suspect that might be. More for you than for them.

So if you are gonna do anything, absolutely do it, but maybe do it with friends or do it with a partner if you have one. And it's not necessarily something that you'd want to tie them to because it's, it's just possible that it's putting an emotional weight on it that they may feel confused about.

Mm-hmm. And they may not quite understand what's happening. And it may, we might be projecting, I mean, having said that, there are loads of self weaning journeys that absolutely do lend themselves to beautiful rituals. And children are really keen to do that and they're really part of that. But I think if they haven't suggested anything, if they're not talking about it, if they seem really at peace, um, I think we have to be a little bit cautious.

I mean, would you agree with that, just theoretically, Stella, what do you think about weaning endings and rituals? 

[00:11:18] Stella: Yeah, I think the way the relationship is between the staff and AIDS at the moment and the way our family is don't, I can't really see that happening. Um, obviously listen to other people's beautiful stories on your podcast.

Um, and looks at a few things like the, the books that people read and the little ceremonies that people have. But I, I don't think Ada would be into that, but I don't feel like we're anywhere near the end of our journey, so that, that might change. But I'm, I'm really totally open to whatever I think just unfolds naturally.

I think we'll probably, I'll just feel right at the time. 

[00:11:51] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Well, that's the 

[00:11:52] Stella: way to be, 

[00:11:52] Emma Pickett: isn't it? That's the, that's the essence of a, of a child led weaning journey, just being responsive and seeing what happens. When was your last feed, Stella? Tell us about that last 

[00:12:00] Stella: feed. Um, so we've got a gym at home.

So I was in the gym this morning, so I came in from the gym at like 6:00 AM and Ada had woken up already. She was in the kitchen with her dad making breakfast, and as soon as she saw me, she just shouts baby. So I'm like, right. So we've got to go to the sofa. We've got like a corner sofa. So she's got this spot on the sofa that she calls the spot.

She has a certain pillow. I have a certain pillow. We've got to sit, sit a certain way. She had booby then, um, probably about half an hour. So she has, she's gotta have both boobs and she tells me when she's gonna swap onto the other one. Like she decides how much milk's in each boob and which one she's gonna start on and whatever.

So then about 25 past six, I was like, Rammy mummy needs to have a shower. Now we were gonna end a booby in five minutes. Sometimes I'll use the timer that you wouldn't recommend, but we didn't do that this morning. So then, yeah, we had half an hour boob on the sofa, both boobs. And then I went for a shower and um, we played and just did reading and homework and stuff before school.

And, and when I totally reflect on it, I think, oh my God, if somebody had told me like five or 10 years ago that I would be breastfeeding my child who I was then taking to school, I would've just thought they were banana. But. 

[00:13:16] Emma Pickett: Here we are, isn't it? Days? Day in day, but goes by. I'm gonna ask you a bit more in a minute about the process of starting school, but I mean, just as, just for a moment, let's compare these two experiences.

A half hour feed, that's, that's a pretty chunky feed. That's someone transferring milk, isn't it? I mean, that's not someone who's just doing a little, a little quick emotional, hello. There's, there's, you know, you're judging milk quantities and discussing volumes and discussing when to change size side.

That's definitely some milk transfer going on there. What were the last 24 hours like before that feed? Stella. So is she feeding overnight? Um, what's the sort of typical 24 hours? 

[00:13:52] Stella: No, she doesn't feed overnight or during the day anymore. So she's, she's allowed to have booby in the morning when she wakes up and she's allowed to have it at bedtime.

And we stopped the booby in the day and then we stopped the booby overnight while I'm saying we me in February. Okay. So just a couple, couple of months after she turned four. Um, so she's had a previous feed prior to this morning was. Bedtime. It was, it was dad's time to put her to bed last night, so she would just have a little bit of booby on the sofa before dad takes her up to bed.

And again, that would be about half an hour, both, both barrels, as my husband calls it, 

[00:14:24] Emma Pickett: both barrels. I love it. Tell us about your, your night weaning journey. What was that like for you back in February? Yes. So, 

[00:14:34] Stella: uh, similar to what Michelle was saying, we've got a floor bed for Ada, and so we've co-slept ever since she was born.

And she was, I was, up until she'd turned four, it was me that was sleeping with her every single night. And to be honest, at the time she was four. I was just absolutely physically and mentally exhausted. Um, breastfeeding round the clock, but then obviously trying to have a job and run the home and all those things.

And it kind of got to the point where I was like this, like this needs to stop. And I don't think I would've had the confidence to actually assert myself and actually. Set some boundaries in place in terms of the, the feeding. If I hadn't been listening to your podcast Oh, thank you. And hear you talking about it.

Um, 'cause 'cause you get to the stage once I've found that both my children, once they've passed about six months to 12 months, nobody else around you is breastfeeding. So who, who do you lean on for support or advice or ideas? So, new podcast was, has just been invaluable in terms of that. So yeah, that helped me to, to put some boundaries in place for ada.

So we did it on the, the February halftime from school. Um, I was gonna be spending the week in Scotland with my mom anyway. And when I stay at my mom's, you know, she takes care of everything. Cooking, the cleaning. She wants me to have a, a, a rest. So I thought, do you know what I'm just going to say to Ada?

I mean, mommy, mommy's body's is getting really, really tired. Which was the absolute truth. Um, mommy's body's is making me so tired making milk for you. 'cause you, you're such a, a big girl now. So we're still going to have booby, but we can have it when you wake up in the morning. We can have it when you go to sleep at night, but we, we can't have booby all day long and we, we can't have booboo when we wake up in the night.

And then I introduced the concept of, of when you wake up in the night, you'll still wake up in the night. Mommy will still be there, but there are other things we're going to use to help you get back to sleep. We can have cuddles. And then I use the idea that I had on your podcast of maybe having a drink or a couple of drinks there that she could choose from.

Um, if you really wake up and you can't get back to sleep, maybe you could have your favorite book. We could have a teddy. So she chose a few different things that she was gonna start taking to bed at night. And the first couple of nights it was, it was a bit tough. She was pretty cross. But again, I was just there for her.

And I said like, I know you're feeling really cross. 'cause mommy's saying no, that you can't have booby. And it's, it's all, you know, ever you've ever known. It's difficult, um, to get used to this new normal same during the day. But after about a week, um, she was, she was like. 

[00:17:04] Emma Pickett: Okay. And yeah. Yeah, I mean that's a great example of just being truthful, truthful and authentic.

And, you know, holding a boundary based on that authenticity, I think makes such a huge difference. And have you ever had to do any night weaning? Michelle, what's your story with Leo's overnights? When did he last have a night feed? Um, 

[00:17:22] Michelle: he still wakes probably once a night most, um, most nights. And typically we do feed back to sleep, but it's such a short amount of time, um, that is latched on that it, it's kind of got to the point now where it's the easy thing for me to do is just roll over, have a little feed and you know, he's off again and he's back asleep.

So I've never really consciously night weaned. I think it was probably earlier on in our journey that things got a little bit more tricky, so. I probably fell foul when he was kind of a year, 18 months thinking, oh, everything should be sorted now. We should be sleeping. What's going on? And I think around that time, you know, he was waking a lot more frequently and I think at that time I felt the pressure to make changes with night weaning, but I never followed through with it.

So it's always been a case of I'd be quite responsive to my needs to say that, you know, if I was too tired or if it was starting to get sore, I'd reduce the time he was gonna feed. And I'd just quite honestly say, you know, it's too uncomfortable. Um, it's starting to hurt. And I'd just gently unlatch him.

And at that point, obviously he was a bit younger, he probably would get upset, but would just kind of hold that space for him, um, and just kind of work through it. I think after that kind of 18 month age stage, he. Got that. It was more of a two-way relationship. So if at any point, you know, it was getting more difficult for me, you know, he'd, he'd respond to that.

And I think over time we've just kind of got that two-way relationship down. So. Very much do that. Now, if it, if it doesn't feel comfortable at night, I just offer a cuddle instead. And he, he, he does accept that a lot more now. He's obviously got the, the comprehension behind it as well. 

[00:19:17] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I, I love that, that kind of example of how it's okay to be responsive to how you're feeling.

Lots of people are like, that's inconsistent. You're being inconsistent. And I say, well, no, you're not, because actually consent and body autonomy yes. Varies as each day goes and, and one day you're in the mood and one day you're not. That's like saying, you know, I consented to sex with my partner, so therefore every Monday we must have sex at this particular time.

Little people also get that today's the day when mommy maybe doesn't feel like doing milk and that's okay. And maybe tonight she does, and tonight, the next night she doesn't. So it's not inconsistent. I think provided we are communicating and we're just being super honest. Yeah. Um, so you said Michelle, that he wakes most nights, but he hasn't since Thursday.

No, we're on a good run. Touch, touch, wood, touch all the good luck gurus everywhere. Okay. Gosh, I was greatly curious to see what's gonna happen with that with Leo's feeding pound. Um, okay, so let's go back to the beginning and talk about starts a journey. So I think some people think that if you're feeding a 4-year-old yeah, the massive myth is that, you know, something's going on with you.

That it's, it's your issue that you are maybe compensating for some big trauma or you are struggling to bring things to an end. And, uh, I, I should imagine most people who have got to the 20 odd minute mark of this podcast aren't in the group who feel that way. But I think it's super important to acknowledge that very ordinary breastfeeding journeys can, can go on like this.

But, but obviously there have been moments where things might have been a bit more challenging. What's been the toughest stage of your breastfeeding journey so far, and, and what was early breastfeeding like for you? Let's start with you Michelle. 

[00:20:53] Michelle: Um, so I think the start was tricky and say around that kind of 18 month part.

So I'll start with the start. As I went into breastfeeding, um, and birth itself, I hadn't necessarily planned out to breastfeed. I wasn't gonna die hard. This has to happen. Um, you know, I've not had a lot of friends or family who've breastfed, so there wasn't kinda any pressure going into it at all. It just felt, you know, read upon it.

That sounds like a good thing to do. So, kind of obviously went into, went into birth, um, and I think following birth latch was okay. It kind of, you know, we had the golden hour we got on, okay. Then I think after maybe a day or two in hospital. So I'd ended up, ended up with a C-section. It got to the kind of sleepy, sleepy newborn stage and we started to struggle to latch at that point.

Um, you know, we'd had a couple of feeds but just wasn't consistent enough. So. Got packaged off from hospital and, um, he'd started losing a little bit of birth weight into the threshold where we had to be put on a feeding plan. So, very much went into that triple feeding madness, uh, quite early on in our journey and obviously just got swept up in the whole, um, the structure of your day of pumping, feeding, trying to breastfeed, pumping, feeding, trying to breastfeed.

And it was really difficult. And obviously it's something we see time and time again, um, as a peer supporter. But I just remember feeling so distressed and upset that it wasn't working after having a birth that, you know, wasn't what I'd planned. I'd planned a home birth, wanted, all that kind of natural stuff.

And it felt like breastfeeding was gonna be the way out if you like, you know, kind of get us to that harmonious bonding, bonding state that everyone kind of wants. And I think. Somewhere along the line of being discharged from hospital and going home. I got very, very stubborn with breastfeeding and I had to get it to work.

So thankfully that did happen because that gave me the perseverance to carry on with this triple feeding plan. And I was about to maybe make peace with the fact that maybe I could be an exclusive pumping moment. That could be my journey. And I dunno what happened, but kind of around the eight week mark, something just clicked.

I think I remember we kind of took ourselves to bed for a weekend, did a bit of the kind of the baby moon and just something, just something clicked. All that skin to skin, um, that we talk about and all the, just oxytocin getting relaxed. It, it started to latch on. So we were able to obviously reduce the pumping and go to.

Exclusively breastfeed and didn't walk back 

[00:23:44] Emma Pickett: since 

[00:23:45] Michelle: after 

[00:23:45] Emma Pickett: that. So when you say he started to latch, you mean he wasn't really latching before Before then There was time when he was latching? No, he was always very 

[00:23:53] Michelle: shallow. It seemed like he had, you know, he wasn't able to open his mouth very wide. It could have been, obviously things would birth that had impacted that, but it just remember the midwives joking, oh, he's such a lazy boy.

He's not opening his mouth and just going to sleep and just having a joke about it. And I was just, it just didn't feel right and I knew, you know, the perseverance and just keep trying, just getting the support, trying the different positions, trying different tweaks and in the end, yeah, with the kind of more relaxed approach, I think you obviously get heads up in the stress of it all.

Um, yeah, it clicked after that eight week mark and yeah, we were 

[00:24:31] Emma Pickett: happily breastfeeding after that. Gosh, eight weeks. I mean, you used the word stubborn, but that's kind of, I mean, that's a word that we so often think of as having negative overtones. I mean, that is someone who is so determined and really focused.

And I mean, that's, that's, that's a really important lesson I think, for people to hear whose children aren't attaching in the early years. Sorry, early months and early weeks. You can really panic when things aren't going well. Yeah. But, but actually, obviously here you are now with a 4-year-old, so things absolutely can work out.

I'll ask you in a minute a bit more about that, about that tough stage. Yeah. Um, but let's just hear for about Stella's very early breastfeeding journey with Ada, what were, what was a's early start? Like Stella? Um, yeah, pretty in advance. Well really just, 

[00:25:11] Stella: um, born at home in the pool. Um, just latched on and just started feeding and she's not stopped since.

[00:25:21] Emma Pickett: So you've not had, if I asked you about your toughest period, you haven't particularly had big downs. Um. 

[00:25:28] Stella: Probably in the early days. I mean, ADA was born in, in a lockdown at Christmas. So any sort of support from like midwives, um, breastfeeding support, it was all just like the odd text message was nothing really there.

Um, we were supposed to be in a situation where like friends and family weren't, weren't supposed to visit us, so it was just me. My older daughter, she was off school 'cause it was locked down. So I was having to try and manage her. My husband at the time was self-employed, so he went back to work the day after the baby was born.

So I think I was up and about and trying to do too much. So I ended up with mastitis like two, three days into after Ada being born. So that was ta tough. I don't think necessarily the actual breastfeeding itself was necessarily tough in terms of like, she latched by and she was feeding fine. It was just the managing everything else.

So, yeah, I ended up with mastitis. 

[00:26:22] Emma Pickett: Oh, that's a really early mastitis episode. Yeah, 

[00:26:25] Stella: that's, but I'd had it, I'd had it before with Eli, so I knew, do you know what it was recognized as straightaway sort of thing. 

[00:26:31] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:26:32] Stella: Yeah. And then I suppose as she got older and the booby monster thing just got more and more, um, just they, you know, suffering her periods of just being really run down and absolutely physically and mentally exhausted again.

'cause we don't have any family that live near us. We've got no help whatsoever with childcare. Trying to sort of manage big sisters, about eight and a half at that 0.9. So trying to manage her and a little one at the same time. Probably just other like general life getting too much as opposed to the actual breastfeeding stuff.

But again, a bit like Michelle said, I'm just super stubborn with it and I was like, I am gonna breastfeed. These are the sacrifices I'm gonna make to make it work. It's, yeah, if that's your choice, then I was, I was gonna keep going and, and Ada I don't think would've given me any alternative options anyway.

[00:27:27] Emma Pickett: When you mentioned you, you're working, when did you go back to work? How was that transition? Um, I was really lucky 

[00:27:33] Stella: in terms of my work. So when Ada was 12 months, I started back but very like half a day a week. And then sort of built it up to one day a week and then by the time she was 18 months, I'd built it up to two days a week and she went, went to nursery those days.

And again, your podcast about, um, starting nursery who are still breastfeeding really helped with that. That facilitator's had to be a baby monster as well. 'cause we've, we've hardly really needed to be a part, which has been really helpful obviously. 'cause then we've been able to create that bond, which is amazing.

And I'm so fortunate I've been able to spend so much time with her. 

[00:28:10] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for that.

I had love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got the story of Jesse's Milky, which is a picture book from two to six year olds that really tells the story of little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways. Maybe there'll be a new baby sister, maybe his mom will need to practice parenthood weaning.

Maybe he will have a self weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we are there to support them through all of them. And also we sometimes have needs to also on endings, we have supporting the transition from breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child.

There are also chapters on different individual situations like weaning an older child when there's still a baby, feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs s. Then we have supporting breastfeeding past the first six months and beyond. That's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond.

What are the common challenges and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey. Then we have the breast book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14 year olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is.

I talk about brass. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives. So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley Press website. That's uk.jkp.com.

Use the code. Mm pe 10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful. It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you. So Michelle, you, you hinted earlier that you are a peer supporter.

Tell us about when you did your training and how's that experience been? 

[00:30:27] Michelle: I trained during my maternity leave, I think Leo probably would've been about five months maybe. And the course was open for me to attend with Leo, so he, he was getting the information as well at the same time. Um, and yeah, we just, uh, had our training sessions, I think, um, the Treasure chest in York and just really got on really well with it.

I felt, because I'd had such a tricky start, you know, I really wanted to kind of give back to, you know, other parents that were. If they were having a struggle or even just empowering other people as well. So, you know, shout about how great breastfeeding is, how, you know, if you're having a tough day or if you're having a great day, it's there to be celebrated and acknowledged.

So I just really wanted to support supporting the community, um, and kind of give back to that support that I received when I was going through the, the middle of it. And I think I've been able to support kind of, uh, all throughout different parts of people's journey. So we run antenatal workshops so when people are pregnant, kind of help signposts the different resources going into the hospital wards, um, as well.

So seeing the new parents and then all the way to peer sport groups as well. So it's just been fantastic and I wouldn't want to spend my way anywhere else. Yeah, I do have another job at the sa at the same time, but yeah, the, the peer sporting side really just. Warms your heart 

[00:31:54] Emma Pickett: most of the 

[00:31:54] Michelle: time. Yeah, 

[00:31:54] Emma Pickett: definitely.

I, I de totally relate to that. So Treasure Chest in New York is, is the charity that you're volunteering with, and we'll make sure we put the, the information in the show notes. You mentioned that you had another tough phase, um, when Leo was about 18 months. What was, what was going on for you there? Um, so I think 

[00:32:11] Michelle: around that time I mentioned obviously you start to have doubts around, um, I was a peer spotter at the time as well, but even then, you know, you still doubt yourself and you, you, you listen to other inter uh, external influences.

Um, and it was just, you know, is this normal? Is it normal that he's waking up all the time? Is it normal that he feels that he is depending on my milk so much? You know, at that point I had gone back to work albeit a part-time basis, so I was able to feed him most days of the week while he was at home with my partner.

And, you know, our breastfeeding journey was very much kind of in the thick of it. He, he seemed to really need the connection so. When we had breaks away, if he had been at nursery for a few hours or he had had had a day out with his, his dad, he very much wanted to kind of come back to me, kind of reset and we'd have breastfeeding as soon as he'd got get home.

And I think it just felt all consuming at that point. You know, it was just that typical touched out feeling. They're always kind of wanting to be on you. You don't have a moment to yourself. And I think it just started to really eat away at me. I was like, it's 18 months, nearly two years. Like when does this slow down?

Um, and funnily enough, at that similar time period, I started on my periods again and I don't know, you know, the full scientific evidence behind it, but I really started to notice a pattern with coming on my period like the week before. I'd just feel quite frustrated when we were feeding at night that kind of, um.

Just anger at night, just when I was having to do the night feeds, I was like, are we still not sleeping? Um, and it was just that kind of despair that got on top of me I think, at that point. But I think the thing that got me through was just hearing other people's stories. So kind of reaching out to the older baby groups for breastfeeding and kind of just realizing how, how many other people there are out there, how many other people are doing it, and they're going through the same things that you are.

And even understanding the longer journey that people have, say feeding a 4-year-old and how that looks different to how it looks 18 months. Just to taking all that information in, I think reassured me why I was doing this and how important it was for the both of us. I would say the tough start to breastfeed and definitely helped spur me on and the connection and the bonding that it both brought to both of us just.

Kept me going, I think, in those really difficult periods. 

[00:34:50] Emma Pickett: Yeah, thanks for sharing that. I think it's interesting what you're saying about making that link between your cycle and tougher moments. Yeah. Is that something you've noticed, Stella? 

[00:34:58] Stella: Yes, definitely. Um, and, and Michelle, I've felt over the years with aids, I definitely, those periods of time where you just like that self doubt kicks in and you're like, is this normal?

And it, it is so overwhelming, isn't it? Sometimes when they literally just want to be on you all the time. Yeah, that's, I totally get that. And, um, it was quite a long time before my cycle kicked back in because I think Ada was feeding so much overnight still. I'm sure she was about three when my periods returns.

And up until that point, I feel like we probably got into bad habits. So aid ADA's really a, a boob fiddle left, so, so she'll be feeding on one boob and she really wants to fiddle with the other nipple all the time. Up until the three year mark when my periods hadn't returned, did not bother being the slightest.

But then as soon as my cycle returned at certain parts of my cycle, I just absolutely cannot stand her touching the other nipples. So then three years in, I was having to try and introduce new boundaries, which I hadn't introduced from the beginning. So yeah, that was a challenge. Now I find, um, for me, like the nipple touching, it's actually when I'm ovulating that I think obviously my nipples are really, really sensitive and I, oh, I just absolutely hate the feeling.

So I'll just say, you know, my mommy really doesn't like when you touch me like that. Like please take your hand off. And I, I have to like create a physical barrier. So I have like my bra down over the other boob and sometimes I've got to my arm across 'cause she just, she obviously forgets and she really wants in a little hands there all the time.

Um, so we've had to create boundaries there. And then like you see Michelle as well, maybe just that week leading up to your period. I think most women are, are phones have a bit overwhelming that part of the cycle empty. So yeah, that's. Sometimes when the self-doubt keeps in and I start to feel a bit overwhelmed with not just the breastfeeding, but everything, and you start to kinda question yourself.

Um, although I think now we're approaching five years, I think I've, I've almost gone past that now. I'm just like, you know what? We're here. She's nearly five. Let's just not try to constantly be second guessing yourself. Let's just go with it and see what happens. Um, but yeah, definitely when you, when your cycle kicks in, it creates, it creates a whole new dynamic, doesn't it?

But then, like you've said earlier on, it's, it's really good to model setting boundaries for your children and that I'm especially conscious of that having daughters. Um, and obviously my older daughter sees me setting those boundaries with my body to my younger child. So I, I think it's all very positive.

[00:37:32] Emma Pickett: Yeah, definitely that role modeling body autonomy stuff is so, so important, so important. I mean, obviously, you know, goes without saying that we don't get a lot of society's positive messaging around feeding four year olds and nearly five year olds. So both of you have had that strength of character, which meant that you've been able to kind of center your children and and follow your instincts.

And that might have had meant that you've had to kind of push through a difficult phase where you started to worry about whether things felt normal. But you obviously came out the other side of that. Do you have people in your real life who are either saying positive things or negative things, or do you have that kind of tumbleweed silence where no one's saying anything about your breastfeeding anymore?

What's happening with the people close to you, Michelle? 

[00:38:16] Michelle: I'd definitely say tumble weird silence. It doesn't come up because no one, no one really goes into depth about, I suppose, feeding past a certain age unless you have that kind of open dialogue already. So because people aren't in the house and they don't know our bedtime routine or whatever, it doesn't, it's never gonna be shown to anyone.

Um, or be visible to anyone. I think, obviously I'm quite lucky in being in a peer support network. I've got lots of people around me who can kind of cheerlead, you know, extended breastfeeding and I think that really helps to know there are other people, um, like say in the community that, that are going through the same things that you are, um, and can give you, give the encouragement if it's needed.

But I think generally, kind of my friends and family won't be aware that it's happening unless show them this podcast unless you send them the link. Yeah, 

[00:39:14] Emma Pickett: yeah. They're generally watching, listening to breastfeeding podcasts. What about you, Stella? What's happening with people in your life? 

[00:39:20] Stella: Um, yes, similar, there are not many people that know that we are still breastfeeding.

Um, I think the people that. Completely aware of it myself, my husband, my older daughter, and my mum. And it's one of those things, ADA's just got a day older and a day older and it's just, it's always been ada, so they, they don't comment on it. When I told my 13-year-old daughter I was gonna be on this podcast, she was initially mortified.

And I said, well, really, I don't think anybody at school's gonna listen to the breastfeeding podcast. And she was like, oh, oh, yeah. Um, I would say, yeah, really close friends know that I'm still breastfeeding. Um, they pass no judgment. They're just very supportive of me and us. And again, they know Ada really well, so they, they just know what she's like and it's, it's just her.

Um, the only negativity I've had are from my in-laws, so my husband's parents. Um, so they come from a family who, as far as I know, nobody has breastfed in their family. On the opposite side, my, my mom breasted me, so she was always very much a champion of it and very supportive. But yeah, my, my in-laws, um.

They have over the years made comments. We only see them a couple of times a year. So it, it probably is a bit weird for, for them coming into the house and seeing me breastfeed a four, almost 5-year-old when they've got no experience with breastfeeding. That I get that I think they, they maybe feel like it creates problems.

I think 'cause 'cause my staff and my husband don't sleep in the same bed. I slept bed for four years and then my staff and my husband, we do, and he does a night, hour night. He, so I think they, they come into our home and they see that, oh, we don't sleep in the same bed. And in their mind that's a problem in our family and in our relationship.

That is not a problem in the slightest. But I think they see that as a problem. So they, they will sometimes to take it upon themselves to try and try and say something to Ada. So one particular time, um, it was Christmas just gone. They waited until I went out for a walk with my friend and they took ADA to one side.

They said to Ada that you need to stop sleeping with mommy. You've just turned four and you shouldn't be sleeping with mommy anymore. You need to go to bed on your own and sleep, sleep on your own bed on your own, and mommy and daddy will sleep in their bed and you need to stop having boob. So they did this, but my mum overhead, what they were saying.

So obviously when I came back from the work, my mom sort of filled me in on what's happened. So I I, I just asked Ada, 'cause I'm totally open and honest with her. I said, what, you know, have, have nanny and granddad said something to you? And she said, Jenny, they told me that I need to stop having baby, like I was off tonight.

I'm not gonna have boob anymore and I'm gonna sleep in my bed on my own. 

[00:42:00] Emma Pickett: So, oh my 

[00:42:02] Stella: God. Start trying, 

[00:42:02] Emma Pickett: trying to hold my breath back here. Oh my goodness. 

[00:42:05] Stella: I was obviously absolutely seeding, but I thought my, my initial, the first thing I need to do is help either I deal with this. Yeah, absolutely. I want, I want to minimize the impacts on her.

So when we went to bed that night, she, she was just very, very confused and, and really upset. And I had to lie with her and say like, you can still have booby. It's absolutely nothing to do with nanny granddad as to what we do. You can still have booby as long as you want. Um, I said, mommy can still sleep with you as long as you want.

You don't have to stop sleeping with mommy. Like just, you're basically don't listen to what they're saying. So I sort of dealt with fallout with her and she was quite upset and quite confused initially, but then we managed to work past that, but it's not really on Christmas Day something you'd really wanna be working through.

Yeah. So we managed, we managed to work past that and then I waited for an opportunity the following day to, to be on my own with them and spoke to them and basically said, you know, we see you a couple of times a year and know as, as outsiders looking in, our situation might be unconventional, but it's working really well for us.

And unfortunately it's not you police. To be taken either to one side and, and given her advice, even if you maybe feel like it was, it was done from, I dunno if they thought they were doing good by saying it, and I kind of said to them like, I'm sorry, but you know absolutely nothing about breastfeeding, so please don't be trying to give breastfeeding advice to, you know, my child or my family.

And then I spoke to Aidan and said, you know, if, if anybody ever says anything like that to you, please come and tell me. And I said, I've told Nanny and Grand that, that they're not allowed to talk to you about who sleeping or breastfeeding. So if they do, again, please tell them that they're not allowed to tell.

Talk to you about that. But then also Cummins, tell mum's dad. And yeah, that was 

[00:44:00] Emma Pickett: the end of that little episode. Oh my goodness. What a moment That must have been. I, I, yeah. I'm so impressed with your restrain Stella. That's a really brilliant example of how to handle it. You got, you got to keep the beast still happening.

Yeah. But the fact that you really focused on Ada first, great reaction. And what did they say when you talked to them? Did they res, did they absorb all that? 

[00:44:23] Stella: Um, they were kinda defensive. Oh, oh, no, that's not, we, not what we said. That's not what we meant. And I was like, look, you know, you, you said you need to stop having booby as of tonight, and you need to stop sleeping with mommy as of tonight.

Like, there's no, there's no way around that. Now, if they didn't apologize, they didn't try to defend themselves, themselves or their opinion necessarily. I, I, it probably, it probably was done without very much thought. I don't think they possibly realized how much of a humongous impact that can have on a child and a family who have been doing everything like child led, baby led, um, for, for four years.

But yeah, the, yeah, they were a bit, a bit defensive but then didn't apologize either, but they've not mentioned it since, obviously. 

[00:45:08] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I, I love how you started with, listen, we only see you two times a year. This, I can appreciate this feels weird for you. That's such a great way of opening because it's, it's a very subtle it.

You're not with us every day. You don't know us that Yeah. Incredibly well. You dunno Ada very well. That's the under the subtext. But it's also, but I'm empathizing with how this might feel a bit weird for you. So it's a beautiful double-edged little comment there. I love that. Um, yeah, you handle that brilliantly well.

Um, yeah. Gosh. Oh, isn't it interesting how people are so scared? They really are, they're really nervous. They really don't understand what to do with it. And they're worried about things that make no sense to us who live it every day and, and it's just part of our normal. Okay. Question about something different.

When was the last time you fed your child in public, in front of strangers? Uh, do you remember Michelle? Um, I was, I thought this question might 

[00:46:00] Michelle: come up, so I had to rack my brains. Um, it's been a long time, probably when he was two, maybe 18 months old. I think the majority of times when he was a bit older would've been perhaps like a baby group kind of situation where we'd attended and there's other parents, that kind of thing.

Or when we were camping or something outside. I think I went, might have gone to a festival once and someone cheered me on because I was feeding him when he was probably around just before two, two years old. Um, so it's, it's definitely tailed off since, since then. Like I say, we only feed, um, it was very occasionally when he'd come home from nursery or at bedtime, sometimes in the morning if it was poorly.

But he, he doesn't ask out and about and he hasn't for a long time, I think. He might very occasionally kind of pull up my top and be like, mommy milk, if he was feeling a bit overwhelmed, but he wouldn't, he wouldn't actually want to sit and go through a feed. I don't think he's very much kind of doing that as a connection and a comfort seeking movement and you know, a hug or something and just suffice if I just say, you know, oh well we only feed at bedtime and he knows that.

So, 

[00:47:16] Emma Pickett: yeah. 

[00:47:16] Michelle: Yeah, it's been, it's been a long time since we've done it in public 

[00:47:20] Emma Pickett: couple of years. Do you remember your last feed in front of strangers Stella? 

[00:47:24] Stella: Yes. So prior to me having the, the cutoff point of nobody in the day, nobody night in February, ADA was very much like I would be preaching the trolley around Sainsbury's and she would be, have a baby.

Um, and that, that's at four years in a couple of months. Yeah, mum and baby groups like music group and stuff like that. So it would pretty much be anywhere and everywhere. But I was getting to the stage when I was like. This is getting a little bit uncomfortable just, just for me. I was like, Hmm, I don't really wanna be having the boobs out when I'm pushing the T Brown Sainsbury's.

So yeah, that was stopped in February. But then actually our rules around breastfeeding seem to go out the window on holidays. So if we go on like a holiday where we're like by the pool or on the beach and we're on the sun lines and stuff like that, ADA will still have a, a nap in the day and I'll give her booby on the sun lines or a booby.

And so I think actually my last, yeah, public feed was, this is quite cool, actually would be lying on a blanket in Central Park in New York in August when she wanted to have a little nap. And I, I dunno what it's about, being in a different country, I don't care. About having boob in public in a different country.

[00:48:32] Emma Pickett: Very cool. A Manhattan final public feed or possibly final public feed or like on, on an airplane. I'll let her 

[00:48:39] Stella: have booboo whenever she walks on an airplane. I just think, yeah. Um, have booby and go to sleep. 

[00:48:44] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Um, what you were saying earlier about your, your teenager, I think teenagers are hardwired to be embarrassed about whatever we do.

I think that's the reality. But I, I hope you know what an amazing model you're being for, for Iris. I mean, she's absorbing all this normality and, and natural term breastfeeding being part of normal life. That's, that is going to have an impact on her for the rest of her life. And if she becomes a mother, that will be such a powerful message.

[00:49:09] Stella: Yeah. The, the breastfeeding is definitely having a positive impact. And you're right. Like everything that I do is super embarrassing. Like it's not just the breastfeeding, it's everything. But she's, she's, both my daughters talk about they, they want to have children and that they will definitely breastfeed.

They talk about breastfeeding in a really positive way. They fully plan on breastfeeding, which is really nice. 

[00:49:31] Emma Pickett: Yeah, 

[00:49:31] Stella: that is super special. 

[00:49:33] Emma Pickett: Quick question about starting school. I think a lot of people who've got three year olds and they're breastfeeding three year olds who might be listening to this.

There's this weird thing I've talked about on Instagram a couple of times where people think when you start school something, you know there's gonna be a gaggle of children circling around your child and everyone's gonna have pitchforks and lanterns and they get bullied if they breastfeed when they start school.

And it's this, it's it really interesting how it seems to bring this real surge of fear in people without any evidence, without any experience, without any anecdotes. You obviously were completely happy for Ada to start school while she was breastfeeding. Has it ever been talked about in school? Has she ever brought it up?

Has it ever been a thing? I don't think anybody at school 

[00:50:16] Stella: knows that we're still breastfeeding. Although she, I'm sure, I'm sure. I said to her one day, I went, they can, any youth friends at school still have boob? And she said, oh yeah, Abby has boob. So, I dunno if her and Abby have had a conversation about, about boob, maybe, but it's just not, it's not really a thing.

Um, I used to, when my going to go back to my in-laws when my in-laws used to say, you know, when my, when my babies were like six months, nine months, she'd always be saying, oh, is she not on the bottle yet when she go in the bottle? And I used to always joke, oh, well I'm gonna be sticking my boob through the railings at the school so they can breastfeed at school.

And now, and now you're there. And I think if I, if I hadn't had the cut, cut off point of February, like no boob in the day, then that might have actually been my reality. Like turning up at school, breaks out, break time, sticking my boo through the railings. So yeah. 

[00:51:07] Emma Pickett: What do you, what are your feelings about starting school and breastfeeding Michelle?

[00:51:11] Michelle: Um, so we started school in September. I, you know, we had passing comments, um, between myself and my husband. Like, oh, surely you won't still be breastfeeding at school or whatever. Here we are and we're still doing it. Um, and I think it's just, it's just been a natural transition that's not had any big impact really in terms of breastfeeding.

So obviously he just does it at bedtime anyway, so there's no need for anyone to know anything about it. And it's certainly not on his hot topic, uh, list to chat to his friends at school. It's not about Lego, it's not about, um, building stuff or whatever. So yeah, he's not, he's not chatting about it. So yeah, I just don't think it'll be something that comes up.

I think the peer supporter and me unfortunately, um, gets a bit disappointed because he very much is a, when I've got a little baby in my hands, a little play doll baby, he feeds it a bottle and he always wants to have a bottle, which is quite funny considering he's obviously exclusively big breastfed and husband the whole time, apart from, uh, the initial start.

But. He very much finds that role play quite natural. And even if I kind of add in a little bit, oh, does that baby want breastfeeding? He is never, 

[00:52:30] Emma Pickett: he's never initiated it. I think we need to get a sort of Mattel breast pump, don't we? If we do model putting express breast milk in a bottle, so, so Leo has, dad can feed express breast milk.

Some people say, oh gosh, what happens if it comes up at school? And I quite often, I used to be a primary school teacher and I quite often say, listen, have you ever been in a playground listening to four year olds and five year olds chatting? Someone says something and and the rest of 'em like, yeah, yeah, sure.

Yeah, yeah. They're half the time they're not understand what the other person's saying anyway. And even if they did say, I have booby at bedtime, someone would think that was their word for their teddy bear. They would assume it was a word for a cup. They, no one's gonna go breastfeeding. You're talking about breastfeeding.

It's just, it's just not how the conversations go. No. And the idea of bullying, I think also we need to realize that bullying. Requires organization and, and that isn't necessarily what we see in reception classrooms. We see friendship dynamics not working out well, and we see friendship, friendships, you know, you know, two against one and, and so and so won't play with me or sit with me, but it's not, we don't get little people bullying in the way that we see, you know, we think of in kind of like television programs.

Um, and if, if anything, it's the adults that have more a problem than the little people if it does come up. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but anyone who's been teaching reception, um, for a while will be very used to having a couple of breastfeeding kids in their class. It's just, it's just no, no big deal at all. Okay.

Let's talk about what the endings are gonna look like. So we may have already had your ending, Michelle, but we don't know, um, when the ending does come, it's presumably gonna look a bit like this. Yeah. Um, it'll be the bedtime feed a few days ago that you suddenly go, Ooh, that is the last time we've done it, and it's not have been one since then.

What do you imagine your ending would look like, Stella, when that comes. 

[00:54:13] Stella: Probably similar to, to what's happening with Michelle. Um, and like reading around the topic and listening to podcasts, you hear like, oh, you know, they'll, they'll maybe forget about baby for a couple of days, and I'm still waiting for that to happen.

Uh, the way she's going now, I'm thinking, why was she gonna be like seven or eight? I I just go, um, it might be that it's gonna have to be something that's initiated by me. If I get to the stage where I feel like it's too much at the moment. We're just taking along nicely. Um, but I would imagine it will just gradually fizzle out.

Um, although I cannot see that happening yet or in the near, near future, but you never know. 

[00:54:51] Emma Pickett: So, a bit of a slightly deeper, deeper question now. What has breastfeeding, what does breastfeeding mean to you? What has it given you as a, as a mother and as a woman? Let's start with you, Michelle. 

[00:55:03] Michelle: Um, so I think it's given us kind of a connection together on a bit of a deeper level.

Um, it's, I've always felt like. You know, those snuggly feeds at the end of the day where it's all quiet. That's just been like my little safe place, my little place of home. Um, and that's something that I'll just always remember, just that little one-on-one time together where everyone else is doing something else in the world and it's just us too.

Um, it's just that real close connection that it's given us and yeah, it's just great. Yeah. 

[00:55:39] Emma Pickett: Great. Exclamation mark. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. What about you, Stella? What, what's it given you? 

[00:55:44] Stella: I think it's just the, the ultimate bonding experience for your child's. Um, I just don't think you can get any closer to, to your child than that.

And, um, also feel like I've set them both at nutritionally in the best possible way that I can from even like a gut health perspective. All of those things, immunity from diseases, I just think. It's the biggest investing I could have given to my girls. 

[00:56:15] Emma Pickett: Yep. And yeah, it's, it's amazing. Someone who's in the gym before 6:00 AM I'm guessing that the health side of things is quite significant to you.

[00:56:23] Stella: Yeah, yeah. I'm really, um, very, very health conscious. Um, that was one of my main sort motivations for breastfeeding. Um, because I just want us as a family to be as healthy as possible. I mean, yeah, he just deletes crisps off the floor. Um, it's 

[00:56:40] Emma Pickett: all about balance. Yeah. But she's got the immune immunity, immunological properties that if there was anything on those crisps, they'll be absolutely fine.

Um, yeah. Okay. So last question. If someone's listening to this and they're breastfeeding a 2-year-old or their 3-year-old, and they're thinking, am I gonna keep going? What am I gonna, what kind of messages would you want to give to someone who's unsure about what to do with their breastfeeding journey?

Who's feeding a younger child? Let, let's start with you, Stella. I would say do not boast any pressure, 

[00:57:06] Stella: any external pressure. Don't try to overthink or second guess yourself. Just take it day by day. And if it feels right, it probably is right. But if you feel like something's not working for you or your family, then you definitely have got the power to change it and to set yourself and, and make that breastfeeding journey 

[00:57:27] Emma Pickett: works for you.

Yeah, definitely. I like the point about having the power. You are, you are not the one who's the victim of someone else's needs and wants. And especially when you're talking about breastfeeding a 4-year-old, this is a two-way street. This is a two-way relationship. Relationship, yeah. And absolutely can work for you too.

What, what would you want that person to know? Michelle relationship like you said, it's just about 

[00:57:47] Michelle: using your gut feel. Um, so you know, if, if it feels like the right thing to do for you to be carrying on the right thing for you and your child. Absolutely. You go all going to blazing down, down that road.

And like you say, it's just shutting out those other influences. If it's not attuned to what. You want to do, you go down your own path and, and, and find your way. And yeah, like you say, it is a two-way relationship. So if any point you do struggle, then it's just getting the support you need to go to get through that however you want to.

[00:58:25] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So you mentioned support from peer supporters. So everyone thinks that peer supporters only help in the early months, not the case at all. Treasure Chest and any other peer support organization, I promise you there'll be peer supporters who are absolutely breastfeeding to natural term because that's very, very normal.

And there will be someone who can help you and support you in that situation. You can call the national breastfeeding helpline at any point in your breastfeeding experience, and that's true of all the other helplines as well. And there are lots of us on Instagram, um, who support natural term breastfeeding journeys.

So you're not on your own even if you don't feel like you know what any, no one, anyone else in real life. I think you're both amazing and, um, so in awe of, of your journeys. And, and I think Stella, you should set up a kind of consultation service for anyone who gets a hard time from their in-laws because I think you've got an amazing approach for those to those conversations.

Um, thank you so much for talking about breastfeeding four year olds and, and modeling those, those journeys and, and, and sharing your experiences. I'm really grateful. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you wanted to definitely mention? Not that I can think of. Yeah. Okay's. Okay. Don't think so either.

Okay. No problem. Great. Well, thank you so much for your time today. I really, really appreciate it. Good luck with your endings and good luck with the rest of your journey and, and let us know, Michelle, if that was really the ending. I'll be, I'll be very curious to hear and if it is fantastic, feel so proud of, of where you got to and if it isn't when the ending does come, I hope it's, it's what you want it to be.

Thank you so much. Oh, thank you so much. Lovely talking to you both.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well, get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby.