Lindsey's story - weaning Ada

If you’re tandem nursing and wondering how your older child will ever wean when you are constantly feeding your baby, this is the episode for you! My guest this week is the lovely Lindsey Bouchard, a nurse from Massachusetts who has two daughters, Ada and Violet. Lindsey talks about her experience of oversupply and returning to work when Ada was just a few months old. She shares her experiences of night shifts, milk donation, and tandem nursing. When Violet was born six months ago, Ada gradually reduced her feeds unprompted. At the time of recording, Ada is still drinking breastmilk from a cup, but has not fed at the breast for a few weeks. Lindsey continues to feed Violet. 

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end.

And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too. Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I am going to be talking to Lindsey, Lindsey Bouchard. I'm trying my French accent there, but I'm not sure I'm pulling it off. Lindsey's in Massachusetts in America, and we're gonna be talking about her breastfeeding journey. With her two daughters.

As you'll have seen from the title of the episode, we're gonna be talking about her weaning journey with her eldest, and we're also gonna be talking about all the steps along the way. So she's a nurse, um, she's donated milk to milk banks. Um, she's had mastitis. And we're, I'm very happy to speak to you today, Lindsey.

How are you?

[00:01:20] Lindsey Bouchard: Good, thank you. Thank you for having me on. I've been a long time fan and I'm really glad to be joining you today.

[00:01:25] Emma Pickett: Aw, thank you. That's really lovely to hear. It's nice to imagine people in different parts of the world listening to the podcast. So your daughter Ada is three, and your daughter Violet is six months today.

Happy half birthday Violet. Um, thank you. And we were just talking before I pressed the record button that Ada maybe has finished her breastfeeding journey, but maybe hasn't, because there's a technicality here. We need to decide what you feel is the right way of defining this. So. When was the last time she latched onto the breast and fed directly from you?

So the last time that she latched on was about four or five weeks ago. Um, but she does still drink express milk almost every day because I do still pump on occasion for Violet. So yes. Is she, is she weaned if she is drinking express milk and not latching or, I don't know. It doesn't matter, but just curiosity.

Well, you 

get, you get to define I, I would say she probably hasn't weaned in the same way that I think a child who is drinking express breast milk if their mom is exclusively pumping, for example, and they are just drinking breast milk. I would say that was a breastfed baby. I think anybody in the lactation world would say that a baby who's receiving breast milk is a, is a baby who is breastfeeding inverter.

But your situation's a bit different because she's obviously finished feeding directly and I don't know. I mean, what do you, does? I appreciate what you're saying about maybe it doesn't matter. 'cause these are words, not realities. These are descriptions. But if someone was to ask you in 10 years time, how old was ADA when she stopped breastfeeding?

I guess it's nice to know what you might answer. What? What's your gut feeling? 

[00:02:58] Lindsey Bouchard: Yeah, I, I guess at this moment I wouldn't know how to answer that because for me, ADA's been, we, I guess, you know, supposedly they're weaning from the time they start solids, but for me, she was weaning when, um, probably when I was about 20 weeks pregnant, she really started weaning more rapidly.

Um, but at this point, that was about a year ago. Um, and she's, she's not fully weed, so I don't know. It's hard to define. I mean, she's somewhere in the two and a half to three and a half. 

[00:03:28] Emma Pickett: So she stopped breastfeeding maybe, but, we'll, we don't have to decide for sure. No one, yes. The police aren't gonna rush in and, and pin you down because you haven't got the right definition of when breastfeeding ends.

Um, so let's, why don't we start with the end. Let's start with ADA's journey, because lots of my listeners are really into talking about older breastfeeding journeys, and I think that's, that's really special to share that story. So you got pregnant with Violet when ADA was two. 

[00:03:52] Lindsey Bouchard: She was 23 months when I found out I was pregnant.

Um, at that point she was still breastfeeding at least three times a day and sleeping through the night. Um, so it was typically morning before nap and then at bedtime. 

[00:04:06] Emma Pickett: Okay. So when you say sleeping through the night, sleeping through the night at 23 months, breastfed child, we need to know how that happened.

Um, what, what did you do? Did you do anything or was that something that Aada just took the lead on? 

[00:04:19] Lindsey Bouchard: It's something that kind of just happened on its own. Um, with Ada, we never did co-sleep. She started out in a bassinet in our room. Of course as a newborn, she was getting up through the night, but she would just nurse back to sleep and I'd put her down and, you know, when she woke up again, we would just go on like that.

Um, but she started sleeping the 12 hours through the night pretty early on. I mean, let me see if I. If I wrote down, I think she was like two or three months that she was often sleeping 12 hours through the night. Oh my goodness. Okay. So you are, which was lucky. As I look back, violet is not sleeping through the night.

Now it's six months and it's fine. I don't, you know, I'm not bothered by it, but, so 

[00:04:56] Emma Pickett: sleeping 12 hours at two or three months old, let's just take a pause for a moment to, to celebrate that and think, wow. I mean, you were a nurse, so, so, and you, I know you've worked with, with families in lactation, so Yes. A, you probably know how our normal that is, but B mm-hmm.

Kind of few. If you're a nurse, at least you get to have a bit of extra sleep at the time when you need it. So that's good news. Um, yeah, I was working night shift, so my sleep was, was still 

[00:05:24] Lindsey Bouchard: not occurring, but 

[00:05:24] Emma Pickett: So when did, she was sleeping. When did you go back to work? How old was she? Is she when you went back to work?

[00:05:29] Lindsey Bouchard: So she was four months when I went back to work. Okay. Um, and I do recall at that time so that at that time I was leaving bottles of, of expressed milk for her. When I left for work at night, I was working two nights a week. I was gone from about 6:00 PM to eight o'clock in the morning. Okay. Um, and at that time I was leaving a bedtime bottle.

One, she was sometimes getting up once in the night, sometimes sleeping through the night, and then one for the morning, and she, she never woke more than that. So I was always confident that that was adequate. 

[00:05:56] Emma Pickett: Okay. Gosh, Lindsey, your experience, it's so great to talk to you about your experience 'cause it is so different from what we see happening in the UK and, and lots of the families I work with.

So I'm kind of really glad for you that she was sleeping as long as she was because lots of babies at four months would still be waking every two to three hours through the night. So who was looking after her while you were working? So my husband was home 

[00:06:20] Lindsey Bouchard: with her at night while I was working, and then when I would come home in the morning, it was either him or my mom would come to watch her in the morning so that I could sleep after work.

[00:06:29] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you walk in the door at 8:00 AM mm-hmm. Your, do you breastfeed when you say hello to her at 8:00 AM. Um, it depended 

[00:06:37] Lindsey Bouchard: if when she was really young, if she had recently woken and having a bo had a bottle, then she might not have been interested. She did eventually wait for me to get home and she would refuse the morning milk.

Um, I don't know exactly how old she was then, but she was over a year. Okay. But I was pumping at work. I pumped at work until I got pregnant. So until she was 23 months, I was pumping while I was at work and I eventually decreased and stopped pumping before I left because I knew that she would refuse the morning bottle and wait for me to come home.

[00:07:05] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you come home, you're feeding her when she's a little bit older and then you have to go to sleep? Yes, and I'm always in awe of people who work night shifts and manage to get there. Obviously you've got a routine. You know what you have to do. Presumably you've got eye masks and the whole thing, and someone's in the house with her and she starts to know that you are there.

I'm guessing, but that's a separate problem. Um, and then how, how long did you let yourself sleep for before you woke up and start being mom? Um, four or five hours typically. Okay. 

[00:07:34] Lindsey Bouchard: But it would depend. Okay. So 

[00:07:36] Emma Pickett: four or five hours sleep, then you are parenting all afternoon and then you're back to work again in the evening?

[00:07:41] Lindsey Bouchard: Uh, yes. If I was working a back-to-back shift, I would try to sleep a little bit longer, but if I was not working that following night, I would wake up early to spend more time with her and then sleep again at night. 

[00:07:51] Emma Pickett: Okay. So it really, every day was very different. Okay. So. She's sleeping through it two or three months.

There are some people who still haven't recovered from that piece of information, I'd imagine. And when she was teething, still sleeping? 

[00:08:03] Lindsey Bouchard: Yes. She has been a very asymptomatic teether. Um, she didn't start teething until she was nine months old, so we did have a long time, uh, toothless there. But once she started teething, she, she really didn't, wasn't bothered by it.

Okay. So fantastic. We were lucky there. 

[00:08:19] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:08:19] Lindsey Bouchard: Um, she was pretty, a pretty fussy baby during the day, um, until almost a year, but she did well at night. Yeah, that sounds like it. That's 

[00:08:28] Emma Pickett: good news. And tell us a bit more about your work. So you are a nurse and you work in sort of labor and delivery and maternity units.

Is that right? I do, 

[00:08:37] Lindsey Bouchard: yes. So I work, um, inpatient in the hospital. At that time I was doing 12 hour shifts, so I was, was gone for about 14 hours. Fortunately, the environment that I was in, everybody was supportive of pumping, you know, in a, in a, um, labor and delivery unit. I didn't have a lot of time to pump, so I was often using the wearable pump.

Um, which have their, their pros and cons, but it, for me, it was a way that even if I didn't have a lot of time, I was still able to pump and to have that milk for her. 

[00:09:05] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you'd be working with a family while you were pumping. Is that something you managed to do? Yes. Okay. 

[00:09:11] Lindsey Bouchard: Yes, I did. I did that yesterday while I was working 

[00:09:14] Emma Pickett: and, and just for anybody that doesn't kind of know how the American system works.

I don't know if you know how much you know about the British system, but our delivery's very much midwife led. It's really unusual for someone, um, who's got a healthy pregnancy without any complications to have a, you know, a obstetrician doctor led birth. Obviously, if they're having a c-section, doctors are gonna appear.

Um, and, you know, if there's anything else where we need extra support, we might have a doctor appearing, but really normal for someone to have birth and never meet a doctor at all. But so as a nurse, is what you are doing what midwives would do here? Like do you, would you be at a birth by yourself with a parent mother, would you or, 

[00:09:56] Lindsey Bouchard: so my understanding of how the British system works is that the midwives in the hospitals there are sort of.

Filling the role of, of both the midwife and the labor and delivery nurse in America. Okay. Um, so, so perhaps there'd be two midwives at a birth in the uk, but in the US you would have a nurse and a midwife. So the midwife here is the one physically, um, delivering the baby and doing the medical side of things.

And then the nurse is doing most of the labor support and positioning and medications and, um, baby care after the baby is born. So most of those things that we just, we are not doing the medical interventions or the birth itself or the stitching, you know, the repair and things like that. Okay. 

[00:10:38] Emma Pickett: And then that would be the midwife.

So, and then I'm guessing similarly, if there were more complications, you'd have an obstetrician, a doctor 

[00:10:45] Lindsey Bouchard: getting involved as well. Yes. So we typically have. Both a doctor and a midwife in the hospital, um, during the shift so that if a, if there was a C-section or something that fell into their scope of practice, 

[00:10:55] Emma Pickett: they could step in.

Okay. And tell, tell me about what sort of lactation support you're doing as part of your job. 

[00:11:01] Lindsey Bouchard: So we do quite a bit, um, especially because I was working night shift. We have no lactation consultants at night. So if somebody does need lactation support in the, you know, 12 hours overnight or sometimes even longer, it does fall on the nurse.

So when I, I started out working on a postpartum unit and then moved into labor and delivery. So we did do quite a bit of lactation training, um, so that we can support families, but not, of course, nearly as much as the the I-B-C-L-C. Um, so we're helping with First Latch. We're helping with, you know, basically any breastfeeding assistance, um, overnight until lactation comes on if they need help.

I'm helping to set moms up with, um, pumping if applicable. Helping with, you know, with formula preparation if that's applicable for families. So we're pretty much doing all of it until lactation comes on in 

[00:11:51] Emma Pickett: the morning. Okay. I love the way you say with lactation comes on. You probably know in the UK there's, it's really common for a hospital not to have any lactation consultants on staff at all.

Um, yeah, that's, so it's, it's an unusual, frustrating situation. You might, you might have some specialist midwives around, but then even then, not, not as necessarily doing the, your hands on stuff. So you've got, um, some training, but you don't have UNICEF baby friendly as standard. Is that right? Or We 

[00:12:16] Lindsey Bouchard: are baby 

[00:12:16] Emma Pickett: friendly at our 

[00:12:17] Lindsey Bouchard: hospital.

[00:12:17] Emma Pickett: I 

[00:12:17] Lindsey Bouchard: think that varies hospital to hospital, but those that I've worked in have been baby friendly. Okay. 

[00:12:22] Emma Pickett: Thank you for putting on your professional hat for a moment. So, so let's go back to your own lactation. So you are using wearable pumps in that 12 hour shift. Let's imagine when you first went back to work, when ADA was only four months old.

How many times would you typically pump during that shift? Ooh, that's a good question. Um, you're allowed to guess if you can't 

[00:12:41] Lindsey Bouchard: remember exactly at that. At, at that time, I still had a really significant oversupply, so my body was definitely telling me to pump as opposed to me. Um. You know, remembering, I guess, if you will, um, based off of the time, I would feel engorged every two hours and I would pump.

Okay. I also kinda had a, a significant oversupply at that point, so I was not super concerned about, about volume because I knew that the volume would be exceeding what she would need. But it was sometimes challenging. I mean, I was, I'd be pumping, you know, in the middle of a, of a C-section and I'd have one of my coworkers take the milk out of the operating room for me.

You know, trying to remember to, to shut them off before they overflow or, you know, just to, to take the time, um, to set everything up. So I, I guess I, I, I would assume I was pumping at least every three hours at the beginning, but I don't quite remember. And then it gradually spaced out. Okay. Um, until it was only once a shift 

[00:13:35] Emma Pickett: and you would be pouring this milk into some sort of container to take home.

I was bagging 

[00:13:41] Lindsey Bouchard: it up and then, um, putting it in the work refrigerator and bringing it home in the morning. Okay. And she would either use that for my next shift or I would freeze 

[00:13:47] Emma Pickett: it. Gosh. Okay. Well I'm gonna be passing you a medal. 'cause I think it sounds like that's, that's amazing And I'm very happy to hear that she was sleeping as well as she was because that must make made of life a little bit easier for you to know that was the case.

Yes. So you carried on working, you carried on pumping. You were pumping right up until you got pregnant with Violet. Yes. And you did a bit of milk donation in there. Tell me a bit more about that part of your journey. 

[00:14:14] Lindsey Bouchard: I did so, um, as most first time breastfeeding parents, I didn't know, um, how my milk was, you know, how, how my milk supply would be when I, uh, started breastfeeding.

And so to my. Shock. I had mostly been helping moms with lower supply to try to, you know, do this, to boost your supply and, you know, all these things to encourage supply. And when, when ADA was two and a half days old, the milk came in and I was exploding for, for a very long time. I ended up, um, and when she was five days old, having a postpartum infection and getting readmitted to the hospital.

Um, which of course was terrible. But the blessing in that is that I was able to then meet with lactation. I didn't feel that I needed to meet with lactation. When she was first born. She latched beautifully. She was feeding, you know, regularly on her own. We didn't have any tr any nipple pain, any problems.

And then when I returned at five days, my, I returned because of the infection, but I was also extremely engorged. Um, I was really never, um, softening up my, within 30 minutes after feeding her, I was engorged in pain again. 

[00:15:19] Emma Pickett: Oh, wow. 

[00:15:20] Lindsey Bouchard: So that sounds rough. Thankfully I was able to meet, it was, it was very, I was a little nervous about that.

This like going into the second breastfeeding experience, trying to avoid that. Yeah. But I met with lactation then and she had recommended, um, ice and block feeding, um, and pumping just to relieve a little bit of the engorgement and then ice and, and block feeding. So I was able to, to do that. But in any case, I started, I started with some pumping at that time.

Um, and I started to. Pump way too much milk. I was, I mean, I was pumping, I remember like four ounces and five minutes and then still feeling full. Um, so because of that, I ended up storing a lot of milk at the time when I was going back to work, may even have been before, I can't quite remember the timeline, but our freezer was overflowing.

We do not have a deep freezer or a second location, and it was clear that we were not going to be using all of this milk. Um, ADA also was refusing the bottle until right up until when I went to work. Um, so we were pouring a lot of milk down the drain, which at the time didn't bother me because I had so much that I was not concerned with it.

Um, we were doing milk bags all the time, and so because I work at, in the labor and delivery unit at the hospital, we use donor milk frequently for our babies and our patients. And so I was familiar with the milk bank that we source the milk from. Which is local to me. So I looked into that milk bank and went through the process of getting approved as a, as a milk donor for that milk bank, you have to start with a minimum donation of 250 ounces.

So I've made sure that, that I would have at least that to donate. Um, and fortunately, the drop off location is my hospital. That's handy. 

[00:17:00] Emma Pickett: So that's quite a high minimum amount. I mean, in the uk my experience is that milk banks don't require quite that much as a minimum if anyone's listening. So you have the blood tests, you are all cleared.

You started Yes. And then you just got into a routine of taking the milk to To work. Dropping it off, yeah. And you. Provided a thousand ounces. Is that, that's a lot. So I 

[00:17:19] Lindsey Bouchard: provided, yeah, it is a lot. And yes, I donated some milk to the hospital with a, um, formal milk bank. I donated some to a friend who had a bit of a younger baby who was struggling with supply at the beginning.

Um, and then I also donated some informally through the, um, human milk for human babies. Mm-hmm. Page for my area. So I think my total is a thousand ish ounces for all of those donations. Okay. 

[00:17:47] Emma Pickett: Wow. Not 

[00:17:47] Lindsey Bouchard: strictly 

[00:17:48] Emma Pickett: to the Milk Bank. Wow. Well, well done. That is such a gift to lots of families, and I can imagine how appreciated that was.

I've got a very practical question to ask you. So Ada is sleeping through or three months-ish. You've then got a month before you're going back to work and working those night shifts. So did you have horrendous engorgement when she started to sleep through? How did you cope with those nights? 

[00:18:11] Lindsey Bouchard: So I pumped at about two or three o'clock in the morning if she did not wake up for a very long time.

I, I don't know if I wrote down when I had stopped doing that, but it did take a long time. Um, and if she did happen to wake up, fortunately at that point when she started to take a bottle, then I would say just give her the bottle to my husband if she woke up 20 minutes after I had pumped and said, give her the bottle.

And, you know, we'll, um, proceed in the morning. 

[00:18:37] Emma Pickett: Yeah. You mentioned that she was doing a bit of bottle refusal before you started work. That must have been quite stressful when you knew you had to go back. How, how did you get round that? What happened? It was stressful. Um, 

[00:18:48] Lindsey Bouchard: we did meet with a lactation consultant at our pediatrician's office and she was able to give us some tips and suggestions.

I think ultimately what the solution was, was a faster flow nipple. Um, at that time I was very fast flow and I think she was getting frustrated with the slow flow nipple. We had started with the slow flow nipple for two reasons. One, because I, I know from my training, we typically recommend that for a breastfed baby.

So that way that's what we say, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. That way they don't refuse the breast. And also the nipples are advertised, you know, this nipple for this age range. And so we were starting with the younger nipple. Um, and I think just for her, that was, she needed a faster flow. 

[00:19:29] Emma Pickett: Okay. That is a great example of how you need individual solutions to individual problems.

Yes. And it's not one size fits all. So, so when you got the faster flow, she was suddenly happy and prepared to hang around. 

[00:19:39] Lindsey Bouchard: Yes. She eventually did take it. I think she was, she took a, a very large feeds and so, you know, she was nursing and done and, and 10 minutes or less, um, with her feeds and with the bottle.

I remember she was, you know, 30 minutes into the, the bottle and she had had two ounces. You know, so I think she was frustrated by the, the pace of the volume. Okay. You know, she figured she should be done by now. Okay. 

[00:20:02] Emma Pickett: Okay. Hmm. That is an interesting one for anyone who's listening who's having this problem.

That might be something to experiment with. Yeah. So you are back at work. You are doing night shifts, you are coming home, bit of sleep, breastfeeding in the afternoons. What was the sort of, let's, I'm gonna pick a age out the thin air, and I'm not expecting you to remember exactly, but she, let's say she's 18 months.

Mm-hmm. You've been back at work a year. What was the sort of typical breastfeeding pattern for her when you were with her? 

[00:20:30] Lindsey Bouchard: Um, at that time, I know she was breastfeeding morning before nap, after nap bed, and then sometimes throughout the day if she requested another feed. I never restricted her. Um, I, I just let her feed whenever she wanted to, but for the most part, if she got those, she was content.

[00:20:49] Emma Pickett: So you were already happy just to go responsively and Yes. Did you come from a family with lots of breastfeeding experience? What was your kind of background for, to breastfeeding? 

[00:20:57] Lindsey Bouchard: I 

[00:20:57] Emma Pickett: did 

[00:20:58] Lindsey Bouchard: have, I have more breastfeeding experience in my family than I think many families do. I know my, uh, paternal grandmother breastfed her children, which at that time was.

Was pretty uncommon in the late sixties and seventies. Um, I actually had a conversation with her about that recently. Just, you know, how, how was that experience for you and her experience was that there was no breastfeeding support. It was very uncommon to be breastfeeding. And when she returned to work between six months and uh, six to 10 months, they went straight to whole milk.

And there was no pumping. And, and, um, and that's what they did. But, so I had some, you know, I have support from their, their end of the breastfeeding is normal and, you know, um, that it was, is the right thing to do, if you will. Um, my mom did breastfeed. I'm one of four children. She breastfed us between, I think between six and 14 months each.

Um, but they also did combination feeding for all of us. Um, so they were supportive as well. And that. You know, again, it's, it's the normal process. Nobody in my family has breastfed as long as me, so I'm definitely the first to have been breastfeeding a, a toddler, definitely a two or a 3-year-old. Um, but definitely starting out when I said it's my intention to breastfeed, everybody was supportive of that.

[00:22:15] Emma Pickett: Okay. Slight implication in your voice that maybe they didn't carry on being supportive of that. Is that, is, did it feel uncomfortable for them or have you had, I don't know how comfortable you feel answering this question. 

[00:22:25] Lindsey Bouchard: Yeah. Nobody has expressed that they think I should stop more, just curiosity. Like, oh, you're still, you know, you're still breastfeeding and you know, but nobody has put any pressure on me to stop, so, okay.

So I'd say 

[00:22:37] Emma Pickett: they just, it's new for them. Okay. I wonder whether it's, if you've got a health professional hat on, whether that gives you a bit of armor in this conversation. 'cause they know that you've, you've been trained in it. Who knows? Well, I'm glad that's the case for you. I think 

[00:22:49] Lindsey Bouchard: I, I feel strongly about it.

So nobody's. The thought to argue about it. You're giving the vibes. Don't necessarily think it's an any vibe. I don't think it's an argument that you'll win. 'cause I'll come armed. Armed. Just evidence or, or personal choice. 

[00:23:03] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Good. Well, I'm glad to hear it. Well, you've, you've certainly proved them there's the right thing to do.

So, so you got pregnant while you were, um, you were still expressing at the moment you got pregnant. Does that mean you stopped when you found out you were pregnant or is that just a coincidence? 

[00:23:16] Lindsey Bouchard: Um, I had planned to stop breast or stop pumping rather. I was only at that time pumping at work, so, and, and only once during the shift, so I was pumping twice a week.

So it was not a lot of pumping at that point. Um, and it was my intention to stop pumping when she turned two. Um, and then when I got pregnant a month earlier, I was like, okay, this is, this will be a good time to stop. Mostly because I was so sore, breastfeeding her, um, was uncomfortable, but I wanted to continue.

But the pumping had to 

[00:23:42] Emma Pickett: stop. It was too uncomfortable. Nipple sensitivity and pregnancy is a tough moment for lots of people, so Yes. So you are first trimester working as a nurse, pregnant. Mm-hmm. Doing night shifts. That can't have been super easy. And it was exhausting. Yeah. 

[00:24:01] Lindsey Bouchard: But we, we made it through, we did have to start making some changes to ADA's routine at that point.

At that point, she was nursing during story time at bedtime, and then she also wanted to nurse again. When we went into her room to put her down, that became too painful for me, so I was happy to continue feeding her, having that bedtime feed. But I had a conversation with my husband that I can't do both.

We need to, it needs to be one or the other. So we ended up making a shift in routine that she took pretty well to, I would say that I told her, you know, she was old enough to communicate with at that point, which was helpful that, you know, mommy's sore, mommy wants to give you milk, but, you know, um, I can't do both.

It's, it's too uncomfortable for me to do both. And so she didn't, didn't push back on that too much. So we ended up just nursing while we were doing story time. And then my husband would put her to bed. And she did fine with that luckily, so I'm glad that he was there to help because I don't know how I would've managed that so low.

[00:25:01] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And how did you find the rest of pregnancy lactation? Did you notice supply changes? Did her sort of patterns naturally change? 

[00:25:10] Lindsey Bouchard: I did notice changes and, and she naturally changed on her own as, as the, um, milk changed. So, at the beginning, in the first trimester, I still felt that I, I was, I had stopped pumping, so I wasn't keeping track of volume, but I felt that the milk was probably the same in volume.

It was just that I was very uncomfortable. I ended up using a magnesium spray to help with the, the sensitivity, and I would say that it helped. It helped us to continue with the pattern that we had had, which at that point was only two or three times a day breastfeeding. 

[00:25:42] Emma Pickett: Okay. Stupid question here, but for anyone who doesn't know about using magnesium sprays, are you spraying that on your nipple?

What? What are you doing with magnesium spray? So, I 

[00:25:50] Lindsey Bouchard: didn't know at first, and I will say I did spray it on the breasts once and Ada told me that the NUMs were spicy. Spicy, so that was, that was not the right thing to do. So I said, oh, I'm sorry that they. They feel spicy, you know, I'll, I'll wash them and we can try again later.

And so she was fine with that. Um, so I ended up actually just spraying it like on my abdomen and rubbing it in and, and for whatever reason that did help. So if anybody's struggling with nipple sensitivity in pregnancy, 

[00:26:19] Emma Pickett: it's something, something to look into it, it may help. Yeah. So you were able to carry on and you said that her patterns changed a little bit.

So what, what, what was a typical breastfeeding day like when you were getting towards the end of your pregnancy? 

[00:26:31] Lindsey Bouchard: Around 16 to 20 weeks. I noticed the change to colostrum, and she noticed the change too. She told me that she, that this was yellow milk and she wanted the white milk. Um, she expressed to me that she would, she wanted me to bring the white milk back, and I, so we had a lot of conversations about it, that the white milk will come back when the baby's born, but while the baby's in mama's belly, then we'll have the yellow milk.

And she wasn't thrilled about that, but she, I guess, accepted that she couldn't change it. So she started to decrease the length of feeds and the, um, frequency on her own. And it got to a place where. Between 25 and 26 months. She was down to once or twice a day and occasionally had skipped a day. I had noticed that my, this, my supply was decreasing at that point.

Um, by 27 months. It was usually just once a day. Occasionally she'll, she had skipped a day. Um, at that point she was just funny talking about it. She, she calls it numb NUMs and she still calls, calls it that even for her sister. But she would tell me that this side's for ADA and this side will be for the baby.

So at that time she had switched to only nursing on the left, which was my, um, bigger producing side. Okay. Something she kind of gave up on the right because it was not, 

[00:27:43] Emma Pickett: it was producing too much yellow milk. I love the logic of working that all out in our head, and so therefore that one's the babies. Um, and it's, it's always great when the kids can talk about breastfeeding.

I think we need to sort, I don't know if it would ever get past the ethics committee, but we need a massive research study where all the verbal nurse lings sit us down and tell us all the things that we need to know about milk changing and, and flavor. Yeah. And, and how pregnancy particularly works. It is so funny to hear what you said.

[00:28:07] Lindsey Bouchard: Yeah.

[00:28:17] Emma Pickett: I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got the story of Jesse's Milky, which is a picture book from two to six year olds that really tells the story of little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways. Maybe there'll be a new baby sister.

Maybe his mom will need to practice parenthood weaning. Maybe he will have a self weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we are there to support them through all of them and also. We sometimes have needs to also on endings, we have supporting the transition from breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child.

There are also chapters on different individual situations like weaning an older child when there's still a baby feeding. Weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation, then we have supporting breastfeeding past the first six months and beyond. That's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond.

What are the common challenges and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey. Then we have the breast book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14 year olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is.

I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives. So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley press website. That's uk.jkp.com.

Use the code mm PE 10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful. It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you. So you'd already decided that you were gonna be tandem feeding.

How, how did you make that decision? Do you remember? I think I 

[00:30:26] Lindsey Bouchard: decided that I was open to it. I wasn't at that time, honestly. Sure. If I wanted to. I know I had been listening to your podcast and other, other people's experiences and you know, some children go back to feeding once or twice a day. Some children all of a sudden want it every two hours again.

I knew that I didn't want her to go back to feeding like a newborn when the baby was born, but that I would be okay with a couple times a day. And I felt that our communication at that point was enough that I could express that to her. And I thought she would accept it if I said, you know, if I said to her, you know, ADA's only gonna have milk in the morning or at bedtime, I think she, she would've accepted that.

So I think I just kind of, I guess, gave up the control and said, we'll see what happens. 

[00:31:10] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I love that and I love what you're saying about communication. 'cause that is the key. That's how this works. Yeah, if you can, I mean that's, there's such a gift when you are breastfeeding an older child. Just being able to talk to 'em about your needs and your feelings and, and you know, together as a partnership, working out what works best.

Some people listening to this would be going, yeah, yeah, that sounds ideal, but wait till the, you know, new baby's born, everything could go out the window. Let's find out whether everything did go out the window. Um, so tell us about, um, Violet's birth. 

[00:31:36] Lindsey Bouchard: So, Violet's birth was, was good. So at that point, um, violet was born in May, ADA had.

Significantly reduced her breastfeeding by like January. So she was very infrequently, I mean, every couple of weeks maybe asking to nurse through the end of the pregnancy. So very minimal towards the end of the pregnancy. So I wondered if maybe she's done, but I, but she still talked about the white milk, so I didn't know if, if that would come back.

Um, so Violet was born at 39 weeks. I went into an appointment and had high blood pressure and so they, um, wanted me to stay for an induction. So I, I, I delivered to the hospital I work at, so I knew all of the midwives and, and the, um, staff. So I told them that I would like my membrane stripped and if I went into labor, I'd come back and if not, I'd see them in the morning for the induction.

So by the time I arrived in the morning I was in, had been in early labor all night, but it didn't, it didn't fully progress. So they, um, broke my water and things progressed rapidly and she was born four hours later. I had a vaginal birth. It was medically speaking smooth. Um, she came out, cried right away, no complications for her.

Our standard at the hospital was to do an hour of skin to skin, but I felt strongly for Violet that I wanted up to two hours. So I expressed that. And when they came in to do all of the things at an hour and a half, I said, you can come back at two hours. Brilliant. Which I did. I love all the advocacy. Uh, she latched on very easily when she was, I think about 30 minutes old, um, and breastfed for like an hour.

It was a little bit different with her. She had a tongue tie, which I discovered the following day after. I had never, other than pregnancy, I had never had any nipple soreness with Ada. Not, I mean, not in the first couple of days. Her latch had always been until toddlerhood had always been really good, and then we made some adjustments when she was a toddler.

But I was super, super sore after 24 hours with Violet. And some of the, the nurses were like, well, you know, sometimes when you've been breastfeeding a toddler and you go back to a newborn, you forget how to position them. And I was like, I just don't think that's what this is, because I work with helping newborn babies breastfeed all the time.

So I'm like, I'm trying as hard as I can to maximize positioning and, and I'm really sore. And then we noticed the tongue tie, and I had her looked at by lactation and. 

[00:33:54] Emma Pickett: That Yeah. Appeared to be the cause and that, and in, in that hospital that just gets sorted out in, within the hospital, does it, how does the, how does that work?

[00:34:02] Lindsey Bouchard: So, I met with la I, I asked to meet with a lactation consultant in the hospital with her, because I wanted her opinion on the tongue tie. Um, we didn't experience that with ada, so I didn't know, should we have it snipped or, you know, do we need to do exercises? I, I, I had no experience with that, so I didn't know what they would recommend.

So they came in and looked at her and they said, you know, it's, it's thin and it may stretch out on its own. If you're having nipple damage, then we would wanna address that. But if it's soreness, basically if it's soreness that I can cope with, then it may resolve on its own in a couple of weeks. So I decided not to do anything about it at first.

We had a follow up with the lactation consultant at our pediatrician's office, so that way I could get her opinion and talk to her about it as well. My milk came in no problem. She gained weight rapidly. She's huge now. Um, she was above birth weight, I think at five days old, so we were watching that as well.

You know, if there was a concern about her weight gain or her milk transfer, um, that we would address it. But it ended up that it, it did stretch out on its own and I was not very sore after about two weeks. 

[00:35:06] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:35:07] Lindsey Bouchard: Um, and now she could latch onto a flat wall. So 

[00:35:12] Emma Pickett: turned out okay. She could latch onto a flat wall.

I think you should trade trademark Lindsey, because that's a great phrase. I love that phrase. Um, okay. So that's such a good way of saying it. Okay. So the tongue tie was not a barrier in, in the longer term. Um, I would love to take you back in time to the first time. Ada met Violet, where were you? How did that go?

Because lots of people who, who are pregnant for the second time are really worried about that, that meeting. Yeah. How did it go for you? 

[00:35:37] Lindsey Bouchard: So we had a hospital birth, and so Violet was born before lunch. So in the afternoon during the visiting time, my, um, my mom was here with Ada, which was helpful because she was one of her caregivers, you know, since birth.

Um, so my parents brought her in to visit. I. You see things on social media, but how you, you know, don't hold the baby when the toddler comes in because they might be jealous. Well, they happened to walk in while she was breastfeeding. So I wasn't gonna stop her from feeding to, you know, to arrange 

[00:36:05] Emma Pickett: that. Um, yeah.

Isn't it funny how people say that they, there are people who are so confident that you should not be holding the baby. Yeah. And I love to say, can we talk about that? Where you, where do you, where are you getting that from? Because I'm pretty damn sure that hasn't been a research study because that would never get past ethics.

No one's assigning those babies to be on the crib and you know, those babies to be in mother's arms. Right. Why do we assume that toddlers are reassured by seeing a baby in a plastic crib rather than in your arms? I mean, I, I get the logic of they need to be able to come to you and they need to be able to feel loved and connected to you.

But if that newborn is crying, lying in a separate space, that's not gonna make anyone feel regulated and good. Yeah. And if the baby needs to feed. I mean, I, I don't understand why. 'cause I think if you say to parents, you shouldn't be holding the baby, that's terrible. That's really scary. That's quite a frightening thing.

If, and that puts parents on edge and then mm-hmm. That's more likely to rub off on the child when they come in. So, yeah. So thank you for highlighting that. 'cause this is a particular, particular bug bear of mine, because I don't think it hits realistic expectations on, on parents. 'cause they're just frightened.

They're gonna, if they're gonna break something, if they hold their child and they, it totally will never recover. 

[00:37:15] Lindsey Bouchard: It's hard to time. She happened to be feeding when, when she walked in the door. I mean, I, I didn't wanna stop her feeding to create this scenario. Um, but she really wasn't bothered. She came right in.

She sat in the bed with me, so I just held both of them. You know, I'm sitting in a bed so I could hold both of them. And we had a little book about being a big sister for her, and she honestly was really sweet. And we, we got it on video and I'm glad because we. In the story, it said something about, you know, now the baby is part of our family.

And she looked at Violet and she said, and that's violent. And she's a part of our family. Aw. And I might cry talking about that 'cause it was so sweet when she said that. And I'm so glad we got it on video and. Um, she just accepted her. 

[00:37:56] Emma Pickett: Oh, 

[00:37:56] Lindsey Bouchard: that's lovely. Because a part of our family that, 

[00:37:58] Emma Pickett: that shows the power of books, doesn't it?

That that, yeah, the repetition of a book and just constantly sending that message through, you know, really gets absorbed, um, on that level. So did she feed again soon after birth? What happened? So Ada 

[00:38:13] Lindsey Bouchard: didn't, she didn't ask and I, I didn't know, I was hoping that she would not ask in the first couple of days.

'cause I wanted my milk supply to come in based off of one child, just in case she, you know, decided not to. And I didn't want her to basically create an oversupply for me again and then decide not to feed. So she didn't ask, and I, I don't remember when she asked again, but the first time she saw me pumping milk, she immediately said, oh, I'll drink that.

And I, so I said, okay. And I, I handed her the bottle and you know, of course she's two and a half, she can drink from a cup. So she just drank the milk. And I said, do you, do you like it? And she said, oh, I like mama's milk. So, so she wanted it. So then every time I pumped she would say, I'll drink that. I'll drink that.

So you're not gonna 

[00:38:57] Emma Pickett: get a freezer full this time by the time, 

[00:38:59] Lindsey Bouchard: no, no, I'm not. Which, which is okay. And I've accepted that, you know, I'm like, I don't, I'd rather feed her than the freezer, so, 

[00:39:04] Emma Pickett: yeah. Damn right. Yeah. So that's fine. 

[00:39:07] Lindsey Bouchard: Um, and happy to donate milk, but if I'm donating to my own child, if you will, then that's okay 

[00:39:12] Emma Pickett: too.

Yeah. Fantastic. So, so she got her white milk, um, but she did eventually latch on directly. Do you remember when that was? She did eventually. 

[00:39:19] Lindsey Bouchard: I, I don't, it was definitely after the milk had come in, I wanna say while it was maybe two or three weeks old, at which point I thought, I thought that maybe she was done because it had been, you know, over a month since she had latched.

And then she asked again. I didn't wanna deny her the ask because it was such an important thing to her. So I said, okay, you can try. And at first her latch was awful. You know, she got, she didn't, she couldn't even elicit a, or didn't stay latched long enough to elicit a letdown because she would latch on and be like, you know, I'm not getting a lot of milk.

And then she would just let go. And then she's asked very sporadically. There's no schedule to it at all. I mean, it could be. That she asks a couple days in a row and then she doesn't ask for two weeks. And so that's, that's why it's kind of hard to say, well, is she weaned? It's been two weeks. Oh, but no, she asked again, you know, is she weaned?

It's been three weeks. Oh, she asked again, you know, again today, and I suppose if I, if I said no, I think she probably would be okay with that. But I figured that eventually she'll stop asking. Yeah. 

[00:40:19] Emma Pickett: Gosh, that's so interesting, isn't it? So some people will think, yeah, gosh, if I let my child breastfeed, that'll be it.

We'll be feeding every day. But yeah, for not at all for her. Do you get a sense of when she asks, like, is something happening for her in those moments? If two weeks go by and she asks again, is it because she's had a rough day? What? What do you think is going on? 

[00:40:37] Lindsey Bouchard: I don't know because she sees me. I mean, I'm breastfeeding Violet every one to three hours.

She sees me breastfeed all the time, and she knows that, that she needs the milk. And I mean, she even says things like Violet's still in our room and breastfeeding throughout the night and, and she's ate, is in her own room and in a toddler bed. And she'll say things like, well, you need to sleep with Violet because she might need NUMs at night.

And so she recognizes that for Violet it's a need and that she is getting milk around the clock, but she's not. She's not asking for it. So I think that to me demonstrates the, um, gradual decrease in it being an important part of her life. You know, it was such an important part of her life. If I had it 15 months, said, oh, you're done.

I mean, she would've had a horrible time with that because it was such an important thing to her. And she talked about it all the time, and she talked about how much, how special it is to her. She would climb into my lap and try to nurse and tell me that she felt safe and all these sweet things that I, I think at that point it would've been, I couldn't imagine weaning her.

I didn't want to, and I could tell that it would've been hard on her. And I, what I'd like to, to tell, what I would like to share with other moms is that, at least for us, the way that it was so gradual, she has never cried about not having milk. It, it's this completely tear free, I guess, pleasant experience for both of us because it's been so.

So gradual. Now, of course, it has taken a year, so not everybody wants to wean over the course of a year, but it's just been kind of easy weaning her because she's, she's been self weaning, 

[00:42:10] Emma Pickett: I guess all this time. Very, very much self weaning. I mean, I often say that very few children actually have that pure self weaning experience.

But you've, you've never said no. I mean, obviously sometimes you were literally out the house, but when you were around Yeah. You've always said yes. And it's, she's never had that sense of loss. I mean, what an amazing gift that is. That's very special. Yeah. When she was feeding as sporadically as she was, I'm, I'm guessing that because you had oversupply that didn't bring you any worries.

So some women who maybe didn't have a lot of milk would've been a bit nervous about, oh, hang on, you're feeding right now. I dunno when the baby's gonna feed. Next that, you know, I haven't got a tandem feeding milk supply. I've actually only got a violet milk supply. This is a situation where it's not quite supply and demand.

'cause you haven't fed for two weeks, you haven't been putting in the order, right. This is actually violet's milk. But that didn't feel like that for you because you were weren't worried about your production. 

[00:43:03] Lindsey Bouchard: I think it felt okay for me because I knew that if she started to feed more frequently, my body would adjust to that.

And also that she wasn't really taking that much milk. You know, I, I don't know how much she was taking, but if she was latched for five minutes, I mean, I, I, in my head I'm like, well, if she has an ounce or two, and you know, vi Violet has also has also been gaining weight rapidly. She was over 16 pounds at four months, so she's a large baby.

So I think if, if she was struggling to gain weight, it maybe would've been more of a concern for me. But I, from having the breastfeeding experience with ada, with having the oversupply, I feel that my body's adaptable to the milk needs. I know my capacity is larger than my volume is right now. So if it needed to plus up, it would.

[00:43:47] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. And it is important for anyone who's listening, obviously in, in tan feeding situations, the vast, vast majority in cases, unless there's something going on with someone's primary milk supply, the vast majority of cases, we will just produce the milk both our children need, and it's not an issue.

Uh, I was just curious because her feeding was as sporadic as it was. So when she asks again two weeks later, there's not a tiny part of you that goes, oh, crikey, I thought we were done. You're, you're just fine. You're just absolutely happy to let it happen. 

[00:44:15] Lindsey Bouchard: Yeah, I, I think, I don't know, I guess I don't, I just go with however I'm feeling at the time.

I guess they, I don't have any expectations for it now, and I feel that she's been, so, she's been weaning, so I do feel that she will stop. Um, I don't feel like, you know, oh, she's gonna start back up to, you know, multiple times a day. I think. I think she's past that. So, I mean, perhaps she, she is done and she'll just have expressed milk until there is no more expressed milk.

And then I'll say, 

[00:44:43] Emma Pickett: oh, there's no more. Yeah, and maybe she'll be done. I don't know. Wow. So five weeks since the last feed, and do you remember that, that last feed? I do because I, 

[00:44:52] Lindsey Bouchard: because it's been so sporadic. I took a picture because I thought, I don't even know when the feed before that was, but I think it had been over a week.

So I thought, well, you know, maybe this is it. So I snapped a quick picture just for my memory and, and if memory serves, that was the last time. I don't think she has been since that one, but yeah, it's hard to, it's hard to pinpoint the end. And I know you've said that a lot in, in conversations with, with moms that, um, have older children that self wean that we might not know the last time or, you know, I, I couldn't really describe her patterns in the last couple of months.

'cause there was no pattern. It just, 

[00:45:25] Emma Pickett: it just stopped. Yeah, she just needed it less and less and what a gift that is for her. Yeah. I hope you feel really proud of how ADA's journey's gone. That's really, really special to hear. Thank you. So Violet, six months today? Mm-hmm. And you've just started back at work?

Yes. How does it feel to be back at work without a baby that sleeps through the night? 

[00:45:44] Lindsey Bouchard: I'm not bothered by her not sleeping through the night. Being back at work was hard. Um, it was hard for ADA too, for me to leave a lot of tears with the leaving. Violet didn't know that I was leaving. Just too little to understand that yet.

Um, and she luckily does take the bottle well, so I wasn't concerned about her, her intake. I just, I didn't know how much she would take though. So that was a little bit hard. I texted my mom partway through the day, how much milk has she had? 'cause I don't know if I'm pumping often enough. I mean, she feeds as as much as she wants, which is a lot.

And I don't know how much she's taking per feed. So that's a, that's a little bit harder this time with not having the oversupply. I'm much more comfortable without the oversupply, but I am a little bit more concerned about please don't waste milk. And I wanna make sure that I'm pumping often enough at work, um, to have all of the milk.

I'm not working night shift anymore, not often. Um, so that is helpful. I think also for my husband, because he hasn't done a full overnight with her, she usually nurses back to sleep and ends up co-sleeping at some point in the night. That's something we didn't do with Ada. She was always in her own crib and, and then in her own room early on.

Um, violet gets up at least once or twice sometimes. I couldn't tell you how many times because I keep rolling over and, and not waking, hardly waking up to look at the clock, but I'm really grateful for that too. You know, that's something that I, I wasn't comfortable with the first time around and I don't think it would've been a good fit for Ada either.

She was not, she was never content to sleep next to me. But Violet wasn't content in the bassinet, so I just early on gave in and said, that's fine. Come on in, 

[00:47:18] Emma Pickett: come on in. I love it. I, I love how you've had two different breastfeeding experiences that are so different in terms of that early responsive feeding and that nighttime parenting, a real demonstration of how the same in the same person can have such different experiences if they just take their baby's lead.

So you're co-sleeping, feeding through the night with Violet needs it. You mentioned that you are more concerned about wasting milk. You might be able to guess what I'm gonna say now. How does it feel that aid is still drinking expressed milk? If you're more worried about Violet's intake, is that something that may limit how much milk ADA drinks?

[00:47:52] Lindsey Bouchard: It may, it doesn't bother me yet because I do still have enough in the freezer, but Ada typically drinks her. She, she requests all the milks, which means mama's milk, chocolate milk, and white milk all in one bottle. All the milk, the milks. You mix it all 

[00:48:07] Emma Pickett: together. Oh my God, I do heard of that. So she 

[00:48:09] Lindsey Bouchard: doesn't, she doesn't know how much of each is in there.

[00:48:12] Emma Pickett: Aha. Okay. So that 

[00:48:13] Lindsey Bouchard: is easy for me to adjust. If you know, I could put a drop, she wouldn't know, 

[00:48:19] Emma Pickett: and that would technically be true. This, that would be, that would be truthful. Putting a drop in. And so you can care on giving her mommy's milk for as long as you want to. Um, I love the idea about mixing it all together.

I think I've ever heard that before. So if she's into the colors of milk, what's she got now? Beige milk, I'm guessing. Um, who knows what's going on there. Fantastic. Um, so you still give her a bottle? 

[00:48:39] Lindsey Bouchard: So she drinks it out of, it's not a bottle, it just, it's. It's the bottle with the straw tick cap on it. Um, we did wean her from the, the bottle itself, I think around 15 months, but she, she calls it her bottle because it's 

[00:48:52] Emma Pickett: okay.

The bottle with a different top. Okay. And what's your plan for Violet's journey? Same thing again, just being violet lead. What are you thinking you'll do? Yeah, at the moment I'm thinking Violet 

[00:49:04] Lindsey Bouchard: led. Um, I suppose we'll see how the end is. We don't know if, if she'll be our last child or if we'll have another.

And I do think ADA's weaning journey was definitely influenced by the pregnancy. So obviously eventually everybody has their last child and there is no more pregnancy to we to help the weaning. So we'll see what happens at, at the moment, she's still exclusively breastfed and obviously very connected to it.

So I don't know if she'll gradually reduce on her own like ADA did or if it, what that journey will look like. But I, I feel that I definitely want to breastfeed her until at least two, and then I suppose we'll see, see where we're at at that 

[00:49:43] Emma Pickett: point. Yeah. I love how open you are to just seeing what happens.

Um, that's, that's the, if everyone can do that, that's a very special place to be. Thank you so much, Lindsey, for sharing your story today. Is there anything that we haven't touched on that you really wanted to make sure we covered? 

[00:49:58] Lindsey Bouchard: I think the biggest message that I wanted to express is just that it, it can, depending on you and your child, it can be tear free and it can be a peaceful end.

I think not, of course everybody has different breastfeeding goals and that end may be peaceful at three or four or five or six, you know, so you may want to end before, um, before the child would self wean. And I definitely respect that for different moms. Um, but I think if you're have, if you have a baby who is very, very connected to the breast.

It may not always be that way. It will not always be that way. And so there's a, there's a chance that they could gradually lose interest as they get older. And, um, this can be a really beautiful experience. I think also after they are a year, the stress, a lot of the stress on breastfeeding goes away.

We're not stressed about supply, you know, if they feed one time a day or 10 times a day, or if they get two ounces or 15 ounces, it doesn't matter. And I think that a lot of moms breastfeeding in the early days, you're very concerned about supply and um, just the logistics of the breastfeeding and the older the child gets that just, it doesn't matter.

It's not, it's not so much about the volume, it's about the connection and the, you know, of course the health benefits, but, um, it's just less stressful, I 

[00:51:18] Emma Pickett: think the older that they get. Yeah, no, I, in my experience, I think that's a, that's a good message to share. And also thinking what's special about ADA's story is that she.

Self weaned despite having violet feeding right in front of her all day long. So I think some tandem feeding parents think, well, they're never gonna self wean now. I mean, I'm literally advertising breastfeeding constantly throughout the day. Yeah. How can you know No child self weans in this situation, but Ada is a perfect example of how, Nope.

Absolutely. You can self wean when a baby's right there and mommy's milk supply is ample and you know, loads of milk flying around. Yeah. And, and they can still self wean. It's about their relationship to the breast changing and that can absolutely happen in a tandem feeding situation. Brilliant. Thank you so much for your time today, Lindsey.

I really, really appreciate it. Very best of luck back at work and uh, I'd love to hear how things end with, with Violet. So please get back in touch and let me know when, when eventually that time comes, 'cause I'd love to hear about it. Thank you.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great As well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.