Breastfeeding a 3 yr old with Lara and Michelle

Merry Christmas to you, if you are celebrating this week. I hope you are surrounded by love and joy this holiday season.

This episode, I’m speaking to two mums, Lara and Michelle, about their experiences breastfeeding their three year olds. Lara, from South London,  has two children: Noor, aged 3, and Layla, who is a newborn. She is tandem feeding them both. Michelle, from Cumbria, has three boys. Her eldest is in his early twenties. Then she is tandem feeding her 3 year old and her nearly one year old, River. You might hear feeding noises from both Layla and River during this episode.

Our conversation delves into co-sleeping arrangements, the challenges of tandem feeding, nipple twiddling, breastfeeding manners, and the joys of feeding a 3 year old rather than a 2 year old!

My picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. I just wanted to come on before the episode started to say Happy Christmas, Merry Christmas, and a happy New Year to everybody who celebrates Christmas and happy holidays to anyone who doesn't.

I hope that all your dreams come true this year in 2026, and you reach your breastfeeding goals. I hope you are surrounded by love and celebration and gratitude over the next couple of weeks. I know not everybody is. I know some people live in worlds where their breastfeeding journey is not necessarily fully understood by family members and them, those around them.

If that's you, if you are hiding in an upstairs bedroom, um, away from somebody who maybe doesn't quite get why you're, why you're still breastfeeding, you're not alone. Lots of us do get why you are. We think you're bloody fantastic, and don't let the negativity and the insecurity of somebody else impact on your decisions with your child.

Your child needs you to be brave and well done for continuing to center your child's needs and, and meeting their needs through the wonderful choice of continuing to breastfeed. I hope that's not your reality. I hope you're able to be out and around with everyone breastfeeding, but if you do have family members who are being critical.

Remember that you don't have to enter into any conversations that feel uncomfortable. It is very empowering to shut a conversation down and say that you're not going to talk about it. You do not have to provide evidence. You do not have to advocate. All you have to do is do what's right for you and your child.

On a practical note, yes, you can drink alcohol while you are breastfeeding. Even the most conservative sources say it's fine to have one to two units of alcohol alongside breastfeeding. And you'll find some leading world experts in breastfeeding who say that essentially, if you're able to hold your baby, the level of alcohol in your milk is safe.

Milk is made from our blood, not from our stomach contents. So don't feel you can't drink a alcohol during Christmas if that's something that matters to you. And yeah, enjoy this time. Eat, look after yourself, look after your little one. Sleeping arrangements may not be what they always are. Don't worry.

Things can go back to normal when you get home. Just do whatever you need to do to get everybody rested. And yeah. Thank you so much to everyone who's been listening, listening to the podcast during the year. Thank you to everyone who's, who's shared positive comments and suggestions, and also the lovely comments about the story of Jesse's Milkies as well.

Thank you to everybody who's out there supporting breastfeeding. Um, today to the 23rd of December, or whenever you're listening to this, there are volunteers on the national breastfeeding helpline out there to answer calls 365 days a year. And thank you to everybody who supports new families. And yeah, let's listen to Lara and Michelle talk about breastfeeding a 3-year-old.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. As you'll have seen from the title, we're talking about life breastfeeding, a 3-year-old, and I'm gonna do a little series of episodes, which we kind of give you a flavor of what daily life is like for someone breastfeeding an older child. And I'm very honored to be joined by Lara from South London, and Michelle from Cumbia.

Who are gonna be talking about their families and their breastfeeding experience. And you might hear a little bit of sound effects 'cause both of them have got younger children as well. We've got River who's breastfeeding and snuffling beautifully. And we might have a bit of noise from Layla who's 10 weeks as well.

Um, so, but you know, on this podcast we welcome the kiddies and the babies. We're not gonna pretend we're sitting in, um, you know, sterile studios. So all background noise is welcome and thank you very much for joining me, both of you. So I've got 12 questions, which makes it sound like I'm a mastermind or something.

If we don't end up doing all 12 questions, that's not a problem. But, but let's start at the beginning, which is a nice easy one. Tell me about you and your family. Lara, why don't we start with you? 

[00:04:31] Lara: So I have my first, that was born in 2022 and, um, breastfeeding was, uh, a journey. I COVID and the restrictions that are around during that time.

And then I have Layla, who's 10 weeks old, and I thought, you know, second child breastfeeding is just gonna be so easy. It was easier, but I still had a few challenges. And, um, yeah, that was a bit of a challenge, uh, that was a bit disappointing or disheartening. I thought that my breastfeeding journey won't be as, won't be as long as with my eldest, but luckily I overcame them.

Okay. 

[00:05:08] Emma Pickett: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Second time around. Lots of people think that, oh, I've done this. I'm still literally doing this. This surely popping on a 10 week old won't be a problem or a baby. But yeah, new babies, new mouths, new birth experiences, new set of experiences to, to deal with. So we'll hear a bit more about that in a minute, but I'm going to sound like your mom here.

Lara, you didn't tell me anything about you. What about you? So apart from your breastfeeding experiences, give me the, the rundown on Lara. What, what are your passions? What do you do for a living or what, what, what gets you excited? 

[00:05:38] Lara: Oh, I think I forgot myself during motherhood, to be honest with you. So me, what do I do?

Um, so, um, I'm on maternity leave at the moment. I work for a financial services company. Doing risk and compliance, um, is lovely. Um, I used to love baking, going to the gym and having, going for long walks. Now life is consisting around going for walks to the park or whatever my 3-year-old will allow us to do.

I can't say I've got the patience to bake with my little one. Um, so finding the time for myself is quite limited. I'd say it's probably because a reflection also of like. We haven't got much support for where we live. So, you know, support comes and goes or, you know, everyone's living their own life. So yeah, that's probably why I probably don't find as much time for myself.

The time that I do have to myself is probably just catch up with friends and catch up with just life. 

[00:06:32] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Lots of people will relate to that. Maybe the baking will come back. Maybe your, your eldest will be into baking as they get a little bit older. Um, as the years go by, it gets a little bit easier to have them as baking partners.

Um, maybe, maybe we'll see you on Bake off one day. 

[00:06:48] Lara: Oh, maybe. I don't think so. My presentation is, is like that of a 2-year-old. Everyone can 

[00:06:56] Emma Pickett: learn and you can sometimes see them at week one producing complete car crashes and, and that you get to practice the final bake about a zillion times. So I am sure you get there in the end.

Okay. No pressure. I'm not recruiting for channel four. Um, Michelle, tell us about you. Tell us about you and your family. 

[00:07:11] Michelle: Yeah, so I've got three boys. Um, my eldest is about to turn 23 in December. He's a Christmas Eve baby. So that was, um, lovely. Um, and has been really nice, uh, as he was growing up, having just all the chaos of birthday, Christmas and everything all, all at once.

Um, he's still living with us, um, but obviously he's doing his own thing and he's off working and everything. Um, my second child was also born in 2022. He's off at preschool today, so he's just turned three in September. And then my third boy, um, River, he will is almost one, so he'll be one in, uh, beginning of, of November.

Yeah, breastfed all of them. Um, my first, it was pretty straightforward. Breastfed him for a year. For no other reason. Then it just seemed like that's what, what, that's what the advice was around then. I don't know. It was sort of, you know, once they're 12 months they can have cow's milk. So I think I had that in my head and that's kind of what I did.

Um, but looking back now, I think, oh, I kind of ended that breastfeeding journey probably earlier than I would've liked to have. Um, but like I say, at the time that was kind of. Oh, I don't know. I must have been advised it or that's what we spoke about or something like that at the time. So, yeah. Um, with my second child, we had a tricky time.

Um, so I can relate to what Lara's saying. I, I'd done it before, so I think I'd just thought, oh, this'll, yeah, this'll be fine. You know, almost quite confident. You know, I, I didn't see there would be any issues. I thought I've done this before. Did it for a year? Yes. It was quite a long time ago. 'cause I've got a big age gap between my first and my second.

Um, but didn't think it would be a problem. But I did actually have quite a tricky journey with him. Um, he had a tongue tie. Uh, I ended up doing some triple feeding, so it was, yeah, it was quite, it was quite a lot. Um, but then, yeah, we got it all sort of sorted and he's still going now. Um, and my third, it's been pretty straightforward.

Again, thankfully. So that's been, um, and I think having an older nurse line has helped the baby. 'cause I think the, the milk was already there and it was all just sort of, it just seemed easier. Um, so yeah, that was kind of our breastfeeding start and, um, me, um, well, I totally relate to what Lara was saying there about losing yourself a bit.

Really. Um, yeah. What, what do I like? Um, I've had someone else has said it. Yeah. With a baby and a toddler, it's hard to find any time for yourself, isn't it? Mm-hmm. It's chaos. I'm really lucky. I live right next to the beautiful Lake district, so before we had, um, our younger boys, we were. Quite keen hikers.

Um, we were, we were busy doing, um, working our way through the wa rights they're called, which is like all the fells in the late district. So we are trying to do that with the boys as well and trying to get them involved with that. But it's tricky with, uh, a toddler and the baby. It's, we've, you know, we've got all the right gear, but you've got to make sure that they're.

They're happy and, and they're up for it. And yeah, it's not, um, it's not straightforward as just going yourself. Um, but we still, I still feel really passionate about that and, and really enjoy being in the outdoors and, and in the later district. So yeah, we just, we, I think it'll come back as they get older and hopefully we'll get them, get them involved and get them having a love of it as well.

[00:10:58] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Oh, fantastic. Well, I love beautiful plaza, the world of the world to live in, so we're very jealous, Lara and me, us as Londoners. We certainly don't have any fouls and around here. Um, okay. Thank you very much for sharing those a little bit. I totally relate to what you're saying about losing yourself.

My kids are teenagers and I'm just working on that still. Um, so it takes a bit of time. So we're going to focus today on your breastfeeding journeys with Nor, which is Lara's 3-year-old, and, um, Indy, who is Michelle's 3-year-old. So I'm gonna ask you about the last breastfeed that you had with them.

Literally the last one today. Where were you? How long did it take? What happened? Let's start with you Lara. 

[00:11:37] Lara: Uh, so my daughter comes into my bedroom every morning. Now she has named her Boob Abu, so she's like Abu Abu. I'm like, okay. So we had our morning feed this morning and the bedroom just laying down together.

To be honest, I like it. So we don't, you know, I've only just stopped co-sleeping earlier in, I think May. So it is nice to have those cuddles again. Um, and yeah, she used to love like, dwindling my other nipple and during pregnancy, that drove me nuts. I was like, you need to stop. This is annoying me. I used to get really touched out from it, and I dunno, she got a lot of, it's like a surge of just like, oh no more.

And she tried doing that again this morning. I was like, no, we can't do that anymore. She's like, but why? And I was like, but why do you want do it? And she was like, I like it. And I was like, well, let's hold hands instead. Maybe she's like, she, she looked at me, she's like. No, no, it's okay. I think she just doesn't know what to do with the other hand.

But that was our breastfeeding this morning. Yeah. I prefer the morning one to before bed, one in the evening. I'm, I'm done. I'm like, I haven't got, I'm tired. I've just sleep. I 

[00:12:47] Emma Pickett: don't You touch me. You're looking for the off button. Yeah. I think we can relate to that one. Okay. Thank you for sharing that. So what, when you'd say that you, um, ended co-sleeping back in May, that was obviously when you were pregnant, you knew that you wanted to have her in her own room.

How, how did you find that that journey went, that, that transition? 

[00:13:04] Lara: Oh, she loved it. She loves having her own room. When we showed her own room, she's like, this is great. Her dad does sleep with her. And we started doing it by daddy's sleepover, mommy's sleepover. So it wasn't like straight, straight away into our own room, like, no more mommy.

And then when I came about, I think about 34, 36 weeks pregnant, I was like, I can't do mommy's sleepovers anymore. 'cause she used to wake me for a feed. I'm tired. I can't anymore. So I just like steady sleepover now. And she, I mean, yeah, now she loves daddy sleep and her daddy sleepovers and um, and I think she's taken it really well.

Um, when the baby came, it was a, you know, then she was like, oh my god, mommy. And she used to run into the room in the middle of the night. Now, yeah, she's a bit more comfortable with it and she really enjoys it. I'm really lucky she loves her being, having her own room and that independence because I was dreading it.

You get a lot of people that tell you, uh, fearmongering, oh, you know, you're still co-sleeping this age and they're never gonna move into their own room. And, you know, it was very disheartening at the time, but I was like, well, you know, this, this prioritizing my mental health. I need to get the most sleep.

That's why I started co-sleeping to begin with. So. 

[00:14:16] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think one of the reasons she's probably taken it so well is because of how you managed it. I mean, the idea of the mommy sleepover and then the daddy sleepover and alternating and, you know, she obviously felt really safe and that was an environment where she knew she still had access to you.

Um, so you, you are handling it, I'm sure made a difference. It wasn't that anything magical happened, so. Okay. So that was your last feed, the morning feed with a little bit of negotiation around twiddling. Tell us about your last feed with, um, indie Michelle, 

[00:14:44] Michelle: um, this morning? Yeah. Um, we do still call sleep, so I'm, listen, I was listening for tips there.

Um, yeah. So, yeah, when he, when he was up this morning before he got up, he had to feed both of them. So, so you did hand and feeding both at the 

[00:15:03] Emma Pickett: same time. Yeah. 

[00:15:04] Michelle: Yeah, yeah. Um, and it was really sweet actually because, um, I can completely relate to what Lara was saying. I just feel like I'm just gonna relate all the way through this to la But, um, with the twiddling, oh, the twiddling, the twiddling in the pregnancy, awful.

And then he's obviously still sort of trying to do that and he kind of, um. His hand goes sort of where river's feeding and I'm making move his hand gently back. But then this morning we had a really sweet moment where the held hands, and I actually took a book, took a photo of her hands held while we're both having a feed.

'cause I thought, I want to remember that, that that was really sweet. That was this morning. I still, um, feed him to sleep at night and yet he still tries to twiddle and, and, and if the hand goes and I just say to him, oh no, you know, keep your hand down or, or we'll have to stop because I can't bear it.

Yeah. 

[00:15:58] Emma Pickett: I guess what the advantages of tandem feeding is that rivers blocking the other one. Um, yeah. So there's advantages and disadvantages to that. Um, yeah. So it sounds like twiddling something both of you are gonna be thinking about for the future and continuing to work on. Um, so the next question is, describe a typical 24 hours.

So this is just your eldest feeding, well not your eldest Michelle, but your middle child's feeding. Yeah. Um, tell me about indie's. Typical 24 hours of fist feeding pattern at the moment. 

[00:16:25] Michelle: Um, at the moment it, he only really feeds before bed. That's how I get him to sleep. And then if he wakes through night, he feeds.

Um, and he feeds in the morning before he gets up through the day. He doesn't really, um, he's, he goes to preschool a few days, so obviously when he is at preschool, doesn't feed, he doesn't ask to feed when he comes home from preschool. Sometimes if he's upset or sometimes if he's tired or poorly, um, he will ask, but it's not, not very often.

Sometimes I let him, sometimes I tell him no. Okay. Just depends. Um, so where does he nap at home when he is not at preschool? You're seen still napping at home? No, not unless he was like really tired. Like he'd had a really early start or a really bad night. He might, but mostly no. Um, or if he's unwell. So he was unwell last week and he did, he did have a nap in the day and I did let him food.

'cause I thought, well he is unwell, you know, can have breast milk. He can hydrate him and he can get him to sleep and he can have a nap. And what's better than that? Yeah. You know, when he's. When, you know that's what he needs. So that did feel like a, oh, I'm pleased I'm still doing this. Yeah. At this, at that point.

[00:17:37] Emma Pickett: I mean, when they're unwell, especially if they've got kind of a vomiting bug or a gastro bug, breasts milk is just the best thing in that situation. Yeah. You, you said that he doesn't feed when he comes home from preschool. Um, was that something that he just, just naturally faded away? 'cause for most people that feed is really intense, but how did that happen?

[00:17:54] Michelle: No, he just, he just, no, he's just, he just hasn't really I to be i'll, like being completely open and honest. Our journey is different now than when river, my youngest was first born. Um, like I say, we're nearly a year in now of tandem feeding. When river was first here, it was very intense and Indy wanted to feed all of the time.

He'd gone from one feed before bed and the occasional feed. If you walk in the night and. One feed in the morning, two, just wanting to have milk all of the time. And I think, you know, we had, I had a newborn baby that he was obviously seeing breastfed and, um, yeah, he, he, and he wanted to, he, he wanted to feed constantly and that was really tricky to manage.

What did you do? Tricky to manage. So in 

[00:18:42] Emma Pickett: those moments, did you just wait it out or did you do anything? 

[00:18:47] Michelle: It's hard to remember now. It's such a blur of postpartum. Um, it was a bit of both, um, a a bit of allowing him to as, um, much as I could as well because it's how you feel as well, isn't it? You know? It's not just what they feel.

You've got to also look after yourself so you can look after them the best way. So it was a bit of a mixture of both. Um, sometimes I would just allow him to, all the times I would use sort of tactics, like the distracting and different things. Actually, your podcast really helped with this, and this is actually how I became aware of you, Emma, because, um, I think I was googling frantically because I didn't have anyone to talk to.

I didn't know anybody else that had tandem fed. I didn't really know. I, I think my expectations of how it was going to be were quite different to what it was in reality. I really didn't expect him to suddenly want to feed all the time. Whereas now that sounds ridiculous. Why did they not expect that? I think it's natural if he's 

[00:19:46] Emma Pickett: wound down.

It's interesting how many people just think, oh, this naturally seems to happen, and they don't actually 

[00:19:51] Michelle: Yeah. 

[00:19:52] Emma Pickett: Link it to, maybe that's because my milk has changed. Maybe that's because of the colostrum and they, you know, they're not, and when there's all this lovely sweet lactose, rich newborn milk comes along.

Absolutely. Of course things are gonna be different, but you are not necessarily Yeah. Making those connections. 

[00:20:06] Michelle: No, no, I didn't. And, and I was quite shocked at, at the difference between my re my expectations and the reality. Um, so I did, I, I listened to quite a few of your podcasts and they really helped and gave me a lot of advice.

And one of the, um, strategies that worked really well was the thousand kisses. So I would say to him, well, you can't have milk right now, but what about a thousand kisses or a million kisses? And we'd make a really fun thing of giving him lots of kisses and, you know, try and I, I really learned a lot from listening to other people talking and yourself talking about, um, that it's not just about the milk, it's about the connection and trying to replace that rather than just off, I would offer him a drink and a snack, but, you know, offering something else as well to support that connection with him.

Yeah. Um, so I did a mixture really sometimes letting him feed and sometimes doing other things to, um. Replace that feed in a word. Okay, thanks. Thank you for the plug, 

[00:21:02] Emma Pickett: Michelle, check checks in the post. Um, just a quick question about your took co-sleeping. So some people who are pregnant thinking, oh, I'd love to keep co-sleeping with my eldest, but how do you do it safely?

Just describe your setup for us, for anyone who's thinking of co-sleeping with both. Well, we've got a super king bed, so 

[00:21:21] Michelle: we needed the space. Um, yeah, we just, I kept trying to, to get Indian a cot and I had this huge cot in my bedroom that he never slept in, that I put washing in. 'cause that's what you use your for.

So many people tell me that. So 

[00:21:37] Emma Pickett: many people say the cart is the laundry. Yeah, I, you know what? I didn't even bother with the cart with the second number two. Yeah. Because I just knew it wasn't gonna happen. So you've got river on the outside. 

[00:21:46] Michelle: So, yeah, I got rid of the cot and got a super king bed so that we had the space and um, yeah.

Indie's in the middle, uh, indie's on one side and yeah. River's on, on the 

[00:21:58] Emma Pickett: other side. And you are both, I mean, I'm just, just sorry if this getting a bit finer tuning, but behind river, is there some kind of guard? 'cause you, you don't even have a next to me. Yeah. Is there like a 

[00:22:08] Michelle: No, no. There's a, there's a bed guard on that side.

Um, and I can do the sea curl around river. Okay. Um, because Indy's sort of, I've got my back to Indy. Okay. If that makes sense. Yeah. So, because Indy doesn't need a sea curl and everything like that. 'cause he's obviously older. He can safely sleep within the bed, tap you on the shoulder 

[00:22:28] Emma Pickett: if he needs a feed.

Yeah. And, and because, and you can presumably move more into the middle. So you, you're not gonna have your back right next to river. If you do need to turn towards Indy, you'll be able to move more. 

[00:22:39] Michelle: No, and it wasn't my plan. I, um. At, at first had the Moses basket in the bedroom and river beautifully slept in the mosies basket.

And I thought, oh great, this is gonna be different. And he kept, I kept popping him back in and that was great. And then it just gradually started to, to get more tiring and he sort of started refusing the mosie basket. And then, you know, with breastfeeding feeding him, I was sort of dropping off to sleep as you do.

And I just thought, if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it right and I'm gonna do it safely. So I just committed to it really. Yeah. 

[00:23:16] Emma Pickett: Mattress size is such a dream. If you can get a bigger mattress. And, uh, sometimes I suggest if you haven't got a, if you haven't got a bigger mattress, just flip it around the other way so you're sleeping in different direction.

And even if that means, oh, that's really, your feet hang off the end, or you, you have to put a sofa cushion at the end. Just, just more width of mattress makes such a difference. Um, yeah. Thanks for sharing that. Michelle La Lara, tell us about your last 24 hours with nor. So she's in 

[00:23:41] Lara: childcare four days a week.

She goes to her child minder. Um, so we tend to have our feed in the morning, which I've spoken about. And then off she goes, uh, she used to have really bad separation anxiety, so getting her off in the morning, like she used to scream and used to be a nightmare. She just didn't want to go. Um, a lot of people, a lot of people have suggested it might be connected to breastfeeding.

I don't think so. I just think she, I think my girl is a bit of a manipulator and she just, it wants to be a mommy and daddy all day, every day who wasn't right. Why not? 

[00:24:16] Emma Pickett: We, we wanna be on holiday. Exactly. With our family. Not many people say, oh yes, I prefer being at work. I mean, it is like, why would kids be any different?

You know, if we, especially if we had dysregulated emotions, we'd stand at the work door going, I don't wanna go to work. Um, makes perfect sense. 

[00:24:31] Lara: So, um, but now since my, since Layla was born, she's happy to go. She's like, okay, bye bye Layla. See you later. I'm like, oh, okay. See you later. It's been great. I think if that's all I needed, I would've had a child sooner, maybe say for headaches in the morning.

And, um, when she comes back, she used to have a feed when she used to come back when she was younger, I'd say up until about two years old. But then it just stopped. 

[00:24:58] Emma Pickett: And you didn't do anything about that. You didn't make it stop, it just happened naturally. 

[00:25:01] Lara: No, it just happened. Just stopped asking for it.

And then when we go to sleep, I tandem feed as well. So I've got Layla on my, on my right, and then I lay, I try and lay down, uh, with my other, um, with Nor and feed her. Um, and so all of us in the bed and she has a double bed, but it feels like a squash and a squeeze, um, because daddy's there too. So daddy's at the end of the bed, then Noah's in the middle.

Then it's, um, me and Layla, but Layla's in my arm. So, you know, she's not on the mattress or anything. There's no space on the mat. There's no, there's no mattress left at this point. 

[00:25:39] Emma Pickett: Um, so she's falling to sleep, feeding during that tandem feed? 

[00:25:43] Lara: Well, she doesn't fall asleep. She just has it. Okay. And then she just rolls over.

Then she has a conversation, then she goes to sleep. She used to fall asleep on the breast, but I'd say she stopped doing that, um, probably during pregnancy at some point. I think. Um, I can't actually remember when. Because I used to love it when she used to get milk drunk and enough she was asleep. But yeah, no, I didn't really see that anymore.

She just tends to just roll over and it's like, okay, goodnight mommy. 

[00:26:10] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. Night, night. Oh, cute. Everyone's thinking, oh, that sounds good. And, and then obviously she's in her own room at night. Does she ever ask for night feeds? What's the situation with feeding at night? Uh, she 

[00:26:20] Lara: does sometimes, rarely.

I'd say it's once a a month. I mean, whilst we were co-sleeping, I mean she didn't stop. And when we were doing mommy's sleepover, once she moved into her own room, she would wake me up for a feed. But when she sleeps with her daddy, um, yeah, she's fine. It only sits the birth of Layla. Um, she did come in initially once or twice, um, in the night for a feed and just want to lay with us.

To be honest, that's just like, um, I was thinking in my head, if this continues, I just won't be able to breastfeed her anymore. 'cause I can't. Stay up, get woken up by one child, then woken up by another child for a feed's too much. Yeah, that won't be left alone. One child's more than enough at this point, and so I'd say she does wake up for a feed.

I'd say, uh, Layla's what? 10 weeks old? In those 10 weeks she probably woke up. She's probably coming in for a feed that all times in that period. Okay. That's 

[00:27:12] Emma Pickett: pretty good. That's pretty good. I mean, if you think what a big change she's had in her life only four times is pretty, pretty impressive. I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books.

So we've got the story of Jesse's Milky, which is a picture book from two to six year olds that really tells the story of Little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways. Maybe there'll be a new baby sister, maybe his mom will need to practice parenthood weaning.

Maybe he will have a self weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end. That we are there to support them through all of them, and also we sometimes have needs too. Also on endings, we have supporting the transition from breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child.

There are also chapters on different individual situations like weaning an older child when there's still a baby, feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation. Then we have supporting breastfeeding past the first six months and beyond. That's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond.

What are the common challenges and how can we overcome them, and let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding journey. Then we have the breast book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14 year olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is.

I talk about bras. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives. So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com.

Use the code mm PE 10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful. It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you. Let me ask another question.

What do you think, if you could ask your child, what do you think they would say breastfeeding means to them? What do you think breastfeeding means to your child? Michelle, let's start with you. I don't know 

[00:29:35] Michelle: how we should ask him this now. I might asked him. He just calls it milk. So we just say milk. Um, I do remember one day, not so long ago actually.

I don't, he was a bit upset about something or he was tired. I can't remember. I think he was tired and it was, he's got to that age where he is dropped his afternoon nap. So sometimes it's like there's a danger nap period around 5:00 PM and I think, oh, if you fall asleep now you are up till midnight. You know?

So, um, I think it was one of them days and um, I said to him, oh, I think he'd had his, um, he'd had his dinner and I says, all this, uh, sticky toffee pudding and custard. Do you want some of that? And he was like, no, I want milk. And I said, is sticky toffee pudding better than milk? And he went, no milk. And I thought it must be good stuff because I think sticky toffee pudding with custard is amazing.

So if it's better than that, it must be good stuff. So that 

[00:30:33] Emma Pickett: did 

[00:30:33] Michelle: make me laugh. Oh, I think we 

[00:30:34] Emma Pickett: should use that clip in national advertising better than sticky toffee pudding. 

[00:30:38] Michelle: I thought that was so funny. But, um, I don't know what you would say. I think it's. It is his favorite thing. It is his favorite thing.

There's nothing better. There's nothing that tops it at the moment. It is his absolute favorite thing. Um, I think it's connection. It's um, like a cuddle, but better maybe. 

[00:31:02] Emma Pickett: I don't know. Yeah, no, I think you described it beautifully. What do you think nor would say Lara, if you asked her? 

[00:31:08] Lara: She's quite possessive over it, so I'd say she'd see it as, I don't know.

I think it's a connection with her especially. Yeah, she's very, yeah, she only breastfeeds from one side, from the left side, um, for a long time, for nearly two years now. Um, going on three and she is, yeah, I dunno how I should describe it. I should ask her really to really find out, but I'd say she'd probably say it's her favorite thing in the world, um, because.

The way that she clings on sometimes, or begs for it in the evening. I'm like, no, I can't give you it tonight. I'm too tired. Oh, just a little bit, just a sip. Like trying to negotiate and I'm like. Okay. Maybe just a sip down that we need to stop now. Oh, but I didn't take a sip. Just one more. Like, okay. Oh, you know, um, I purposely try not to breastfeed from that side, from like, in the afternoon, from like four o'clock or for three o'clock onwards.

So I know by the time she comes home and she's ready for bed, there's milk and she's like, she always ask me, mommy, you said lots of milk. I was like, there should be just for you. 

[00:32:10] Emma Pickett: So Layla feeds from that side during the day to, to keep su supply boosted and doing her job on that side. And then, and then does, does, um, nor see Layla sometimes fitting from that side.

Is, is she so possessive that you actually have to be careful about her seeing, um, Layla on that side? 

[00:32:27] Lara: Um, I try not to feed her so much from that side when no's around though she knows that, um. So she doesn't, I don't trigger those emotions within her, but when I have, she's like, she has asked Mommy, why is Layla having from that side?

And I said, oh, 'cause the other side is, is a bit low. Like there's not enough milk for her. Even though there probably there is, it's just, you know, it's, I'm a bit engorged. I've left it a bit long. She said, okay, mommy, that's fine. 

[00:32:53] Emma Pickett: Permission granted. Yeah. Yeah. It's pretty good to, I'd explain to her how milk supply works, actually, that nor when you're not around, you know, Layla's keeping it going for you.

If, if, if lay Layla didn't take any milk out in the day, they'd be even less for you. Um, a little discussion on supply and demand. Maybe she's ready for that. 

[00:33:10] Lara: She has to ask where does, where does breast milk come from? So then I try to explain it and I get myself in a mob door, to be honest. I'm like, well, you know the blood that goes around my mommy's body and she's like, blood, how?

And I'm like, oh God, I dunno how to convert this. Or, you know, I dunno if there's even a book that explains it for a toddler of child. It is actually difficult 

[00:33:31] Emma Pickett: to explain. To be honest, I don't think the science people even a hundred percent understand how milk's made. So, so it, so you're not missing anything.

I mean, literally as scientists, we're not a hundred percent sure how it happens. Like we, we, we have obviously we, we could, we can see the milk going around the alveoli and the milk. Production areas, and we know that milk is getting filtered into the, um, you know, through the bloodstream, but I don't think we have a full understanding of, of how that process happens.

So, um, yeah, I don't think you are, you are necessarily missing a trick. So, yeah, the book I wrote, the breast book is for slightly older children, unfortunately. So, so won't, won't work for you, but I think we need to make one. Let's, let's write a book right now. You, me, Lara. Let's make it happen. Um, we need, we need a really simple explanation.

That's a sciencey explanation. There must be someone who's done it. Let's, we'll Google and find it. Okay, next question says, what does it mean to you? Now, I'm not expecting necessarily an airy fairy deep, profound answer here. It might just be, I'm just doing it 'cause stoppings harder. Um, but if I was to ask you, what does breastfeeding mean to you?

And you're speaking to a parent who's maybe feeding a 14 month old and doesn't understand what it's like to feed a 3-year-old, what does, what does breastfeeding nor mean to you? Lara? 

[00:34:45] Lara: To be honest, it's, I'd say it's the one way that I feel connected to her. Um, I did suffer from like, um, postpartum depression.

Um, and it's probably one way that I bonded with her because I didn't really feel a bond with her. So I'd say that's the way that I found a bond through her and the way I feel like I connect her at the end of the day. So I'd say that's what, yeah, I think it's quite special that it's so special that I dread the day that she says, no more milk.

Um, especially, yeah, she'll be four in February and I'm like, wow, at what point are you gonna wean off? Are you gonna still be breastfeeding when we go to school? But yeah, actually I had this phase last year where I was away from her for a period of time. When I came back, I thought, oh, she, she didn't ask for it.

And I thought, oh my God, is, is this the end? And I was actually going through like, I thought I'm gonna start grieving this. Can't. It sounds quite dramatic, but yeah, I really dread that day when she's like no more. Although sometimes I'm like, I can't do this anymore. You're too old. 

[00:35:42] Emma Pickett: Just leave me alone.

Mixed feelings. I think every breastfeeding parent would relate to that. The hating it and loving it at the same time, the wishing it would end and dreading the day it does end. That is, I think everyone who feeds the older children will be relating to that. Michelle, what about you? What does it mean to you?

[00:35:58] Michelle: It wasn't really my plan to be breastfeeding still at three. And you, I wanted to breastfeed longer than a year. 'cause like I said, with my eldest, I did a year and that was it. Um, I kind of had in my head around two. That was my goal. I wanted to, I wanted to get to two. That's what I kind of thought, um, when I was pregnant and the feed had that kind of reduced to just before bed.

And obviously that was because of my milk and drying up and things like that. Um, but that felt like it was beco, it was coming to a natural end and I naively thought it was, it was coming to a natural end and I was quite happy with that. Um, so it was just over two when River was born. So, but, and he hadn't, he hadn't weaned off.

Um, and now that I've read more about it, I've, I realize now that that was probably unrealistic of me to think that he was naturally just weaning off at two. And actually it was probably more like my milk was sort of reduced and because I was pregnant and the changes in the milk and things. And then because he hadn't weaned off, I kind of decided to continue, um, and try tandem feed him.

But like I said, I didn't really know much about it and my expectations were quite different to the reality. And now I'm okay with where we're at and you know, I've done it for this long and I do keep thinking about weaning him. And I've got all the books. I've got your book, I've got the booby moon books, you know, and we read them, um, and I think about it and then I just don't do it.

He just never seems right and he just never seems ready. So it's, it's a funny one really. I do think when it actually, when when he is actually wined, I will feel sad and I'll think, oh, it's, you know, it's finished now. But also I do keep thinking about when is it gonna happen and when. Mm-hmm. When's gonna be the best way?

I don't think it's going to be easy, and I, and honestly, that's why I've put it off because it's sometimes the path of least resistance. Yeah. Well, I think that's parenting. Sometimes 

[00:38:03] Emma Pickett: you pick an easier life and there's nothing wrong with that. Right. And you don't lose it until you need to lose it. When it makes you sad, that's the time to start working on the weening.

[00:38:11] Michelle: I know that the support he needs to wean off breastfeeding. I can't give him right now because I'm breastfeeding a baby still. And I think that's why I'm not weaning him because to hold him and support him in that 'cause he's gonna be upset and rightly so. And to be able to comfort him in the way that he needs, I can't do that while I'm breastfeeding his baby brother.

Okay. Um, so yeah, it's a tricky one for me really. But, um, yeah, it, it, to me it's meant having that connection and, you know, it's really lovely having that bond, um, and being able to offer that support and, you know, to quote you again. And there's something about it being a good parenting tool. I never really thought about that side of things, you know?

I sometimes say to my friend who's also breastfeeding, I don't know how bottle feeding, you know, formula fed babies. I don't know how the parents do it. They must be amazing because I just, if anything, any cry, I am like, oh, we'll get the, it tells everything. And I think wow. You know, hat's off to them because their, their, their skills that they've got to develop and to be able to comfort their babies because I'm here just, just giving them milk to, to, um, stop all the cries saying, and, you know, I think, I thought a lot about what you said about, you know, you just, you've got to be prepared that that tool goes if you wean.

And I thought, I'm not sure I'm quite ready to let go of that tool right now. 'cause that's, um, it's a good tool in my pocket right now. Well, I've got a baby and a toddler. Yeah. So, so yeah. It's a funny one really. It's, it's been a bit of everything. It's been a bit of. It's been a bit of just, I don't know.

It's a funny one, isn't it? It's, it's, it's a, it's a funny concept, but I'm pleased I've been able to do it. 

[00:40:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I think you sound unsure about what you want to do in the future, and that's okay. We'll talk a bit more about the future and one of the later questions. Okay. Right. Next question says, what's going on with support in real life?

Do you have support for breastfeeding, a three-year-old in real life? Do you have anybody that's giving you a hard time? You don't have to name names. What's happening, Lara? 

[00:40:29] Lara: I'm laughing at this because I feel like I've had pressure for a long time to, um, like people are still surprised. I was still breastfeeding my daughter.

Um, my eldest, I'm surprised that I've gone this long. Um, you know, every, I used, you know, it used to be a, a blame tactic, um, from um, people that you knows reason why my daughter might be. Might get upset if she's not with me in the evening or why daddy can't put her to sleep, I think, or you know, even now I'm getting questions asked about, well, what's gonna happen when she goes to school?

Yeah. I've been reading a lot into this, whether it's for you, um, Olivia, the lactation facilitator there, see if I can find anything there. And Lucy as well are looking on her site for anything that, and I think it's, um, I don't think it's a conversation that children naturally would have about breastfeeding.

You mean at, at school? 

[00:41:23] Emma Pickett: Yes. Yeah. So I used to be a primary school teacher and sort of know, know about this from two different angles. The idea that you go into the playground and go, right, let me discuss the fact I breastfeed from my mother. It just doesn't happen. And little people, if they ever do bring up breastfeeding, other little people, dunno what they mean anyway.

You know, if she was, what's her word for best? Finn Abu or Abu? Yeah. Yeah. So if she said, I have Abu, everyone's gonna go, great. Lovely. What's that? Probably a teddy bear. I dunno, I'm five. I don't understand lots of things I hear about in the world. Let's move on to the next thing. People aren't going to get it.

Even if she did bring it up. And even if she did, like, you know, if, if um, indie's saying milk, no one's gonna blink about that. But even if they say, I have booby, they're still not gonna judge. They're not going to fully understand. They're just gonna, it's just gonna sweep over their heads. And the idea that, you know, reception children are sort of a wild pack of animals that herd around each other and bully each other.

It just, that's not the dynamic of reception children. That is just not how it works. I'd be more worried about adult reaction than I would about child reaction. 

[00:42:26] Lara: So reassuring to hear, because one things that she might get bullied for, I was thinking, but would the child really understand that? Like, you know.

They don't see breast, uh, um, boobs sexualized at that age. No. So like, it's, for us, it's more natural's. 

[00:42:42] Emma Pickett: It's just not a thing. And, and it's, I've never ever heard of somebody whose child is, you know, victimized or picked on by other children because of breastfeeding. And I've been doing this for 20 years.

I've never ever heard of that story. The idea that you've got to rush to wean before school. What's different about school? They're, she's at childcare now with the same children. Are they giving her a hard time? I mean, she's, she's, you know, she's three. They don't suddenly, at the age of four, get this kind of magical bullying fairy that sits on their shoulder.

It's the same kids. Um, you know, why is nursery any different from school? It isn't. Um, so please don't use school as a, as a thinking. That's the threshold. And you have to do anything different. It's just not a thing. Um, make the decision that feels right. And actually the kids that do carry on breastfeeding when they start school, it's great.

They get to have that lovely emotional regulation and connection and, and, you know, at the end of a busy day, you know, have a lovely bedtime feed. What a great way to start life at going to school your wing when it feels right. And it's certainly nothing about school. So other people are saying, are they that school is some sort of threshold?

[00:43:46] Lara: Yes, it seems so. Whereas I'm like, and you know, I question, well, how long is she gonna go? And I'm like, well, however long she wants to go. And they're like, well, you know, but you've put boundaries in place. If she asked during the day where I'm like, no, you can't have it now, in the end I give up. To be honest, I like an easy life.

I, that's one thing I, I haven't got the energy to debate on. I'm like, okay, if you want boo now, okay, fine. Find it awkward though. If she does ask me in public like. To breastfeed. Like, no, she's, she looks like a four or 5-year-old because she's quite tall out in the public how that would be perceived. I'm conscious of that.

I have had stairs when I was even doing it at two and a half, um, years old and even going on three years old. But, so I try not to breastfeed a public, to be honest. She doesn't really ask me anymore because she's like privacy. I'm like, yes, privacy, um, when we're outside. But yeah, I dunno, to be honest, I think however long my daughter wants, it's the best gift I can give her.

I'm surprised I've gone this long. It's probably one of my greatest achievements. And, you know, I wasn't maternal for having children, so for me to say that feel that was quite a win. 

[00:44:49] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Oh yeah. That's, that's a really powerful thing to say. Thank, thank you for sharing that. Um, Michelle, what's happening with people in your life?

Do you have anyone giving you a hard time? 

[00:44:59] Michelle: Um, no, not really. Um. My partner's really supportive. Um, I think he sees how much it means to him and he's very supportive of that. He's never, ever, you know, we've talked about it and he's said, oh yeah, you know, it's probably time to stop. Or, you know, if I've said to him, I'm really touched out or I'm really tired, or, well, you know, maybe it's time to get him off and things.

But then we've talked about, but what's the reality of that and how are we gonna manage that? And then when we've talked about that, we're kind of like, oh, well maybe not yet. And, and I said to him the other day about it, um, I said, oh, I might just, I might just wait until he's four and Rivers two and then wean them both together.

You know, maybe that would be the better way to do it. Rather than trying to wean Indy while he's baby brother's, still having the thing that's so special to him. I just feel like a cat. I just don't feel like I can do that. And he was like, yeah, that sounds like a good idea. So he's very, very supportive. I don't talk about it a lot to people.

I've got, you know, there's a a few close people in my life that know he's still breastfed, but most people don't know and don't ask. They assume he's not 

[00:46:10] Emma Pickett: Probably, yeah, they assume he's not. 

[00:46:12] Michelle: Probably, yeah. Um, but if somebody does ask, I, I, I am open about it. Um, I've had comments not recently, but. In the past where people have said, oh, don't you think he's a bit old for that?

Or Oh, yeah. Um, had a lot of comment for that. Yeah. 

[00:46:28] Emma Pickett: That's so interesting. Someone says that, I wonder what they're actually expecting you to say. Are they expecting you to go, oh my God, you, you're right. I, it's, I've never, that's never occurred to me. Oh my God, thank you for letting me sharing that with me.

What is the response they think is gonna come out of your mouth when someone says that? 

[00:46:42] Michelle: I know. And, and I just laugh when, when people have said like, oh, do you know? Do you think, oh, he is a bit big to be in your bed, or he is a bit old for that. And I'm just like, do you wanna come round my house and you wanna wean him and you wanna get him in his own bed?

Please do. 'cause I would love that help. He's three. 'cause I can't do it. Three is not 

[00:47:00] Emma Pickett: big, three is little. Um, okay, so actually the next question was about feeding in public and Lara's already answered that. So I'm gonna ask you, Michelle, do you, how do you feel about feeding Indian public? Is it something you ever do?

[00:47:11] Michelle: No, not anymore. Not for, not for a while. I think. I think as the deer feeds kind of reduced as he got to around the two age, and he sort of stopped asking. He never really asked. Um, I think I probably asked, fed him in public when he was under two. Okay. And I think he just naturally stopped asking, just stayed away.

And I, I don't know why. Yeah. Um, he would ask at home, but I think, do you know, I think maybe I'm remembering there was maybe the odd time where he did. Um, and I maybe said, oh, no, you know, when we're at home, and kind of just, and, and he accepted that. I don't know, but I'm, I'm the same. I feel a bit awkward about I, yeah, I'm absolutely fine feeding the baby in public.

Not bothered to, yeah. Sometimes feel a bit awkward, but I, I don't mind. But yeah, if I would feel very awkward if he wanted to feed in public now. Because he's quite big. But I don't know where that comes from. Society. I think that society as suppose I, yeah, I think 

[00:48:11] Emma Pickett: we know where that comes from. I think everyone would understand that we live in a world where we don't see it very much.

And, and you don't have a responsibility to break barriers when you're dealing with everything else. And I think some people go, oh, I feel a bit guilty that I'm not feeling in public. I I should be modeling, feeding older children. No, you do what feels right for you and you, you're doing enough coming on this podcast and enough, you know, talking to people in your life and, and actually feeding in public with an older child isn't necessarily comfortable because you can't sit easily and, and you're quite exposed and they're bobbing off and looking around and, you know, it's not, it's not comfortable physically as well as emotionally and culturally.

And, and that's okay. That's okay. We can't, we can't, you know, be everything. Okay. Next question says, what has been the toughest stage of your breastfeeding journey so far? So we're just talking about your three-year-olds here, Lara. Thinking about Nora's breastfeeding journey, what was the toughest bit? 

[00:49:07] Lara: I'd probably say at the start actually and, um, when I was pregnant at the start, because I didn't find that she latched properly.

So luckily where I gave birth there was the infant, um, being support team. They're like, you can't go home basically until you learn. 'cause I was like, I really want to breastfeed. They taught me how to do it. But then once I got home, it wasn't flowing. It took me a few weeks to actually get the lateral. It was quite upsetting.

So yeah, I had like, um, you know, sore nipples and tears in my nipples and that was an experience. And I think 'cause it was lockdown, there wasn't really like, um, any breastfeeding clinics I could go to. It wasn't lockdown, but it was like that COVID period where there was some restrictions. Yeah, lots of groups haven't restart.

So there was still that hangover of COVID, if you like, during that time. So I just felt like it was quite a lonely experience. Luckily I had a good friend that was able to help and give me the support, um, to, so we could get that latch going. Um, first say that was quite difficult. Um, then the next bit was actually, it probably wasn't when I was pregnant, probably when I spent a few, I had had spent some time away from my daughter at the end of last year, about two weeks.

It was unexpected, just a, a family emergency. And um, when I came back I was pumping 'cause my, my boobs were quite engorge. I hadn't breastfed for like two weeks. So I pumped and then actually damaged my nipple from pumping. And then I had like an, and it was breastfeeding through that. And you know, once we reunited and we started breastfeeding first I thought, oh my God, she stopped breastfeeding.

Like it's the end of breastfeeding, but also trying to breastfeed through an infection. Oh my god, I dunno how people do it. It was so painful. That you had mastitis, did you? It wasn't mastitis, it was just an infection of the nipple. Okay. Where the nipple had got cut. Ouch. And that's what got me thinking, how do moms with newborn babies continue breastfeeding through mastitis?

Because my god, just breastfeeding through that. Um, the nipple infection was really hard. You know, I used to, I felt like she was pinching at my nipple even though she wasn't. And it was horrible. It was awful. I remember crying through breastfeeding. That was just the worst. 

[00:51:21] Emma Pickett: Okay. Well you're amazing for getting through that.

That sounds really intense. And actually thank you for highlighting that. You can have two weeks away from a child who, what was two at that point, presumably, or, and you just start a breastfeeding game when you got back. Some people say, oh my God, if you have two weeks away, they're not gonna breastfeed when you get back together.

That's the end of your breastfeeding journey. Um, no. Um, nor is one example of that, but there are so many other examples. Um, you know, you don't wean by spending time away from your child. So I'm really glad that things were able to resume again. But gosh, that does sound intense. And that was just pumping, was it wrong size flange or, or something to do with the pump?

[00:51:55] Lara: I think I've fell too strong to try and get all the milk out. I dunno why I wasn't. I'm not, I find it quite hard pumping anyway. I haven't got the patience for it. Um, to sit there and have pumping. I don't know, I don't find that it actually, um, withdraws the milk as efficiently as what my, my children can do.

Um, so I was more like, well it doesn't feel like how it does after a feed, so maybe I need to continue. So that was probably my naivety to pumping. Yeah. Uh, if I didn't have breastfeeding when I came back, you know, luckily she did come, you know, she was a bit traumatized 'cause it was unexpected of having those two weeks away from her.

I didn't have breastfeeding as at all. I don't know how I'd feel connected to her. 'cause I could see how dysregulated she was, how upset she was, um, you know. Feels a bit very clingy to me from that period. So I didn't have breastfeeding as a tool. I dunno how I'd keep her that comfort and security, obviously words of affirmation, but outside of that, I don't feel if that would've been enough for her.

[00:52:56] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that was obviously what she wanted. She was happy to continue. Uh, what's been your toughest part of your breastfeeding journey with Indie Michelle? 

[00:53:04] Michelle: The start was quite tough. So he had a tongue tie. The midwife noticed it in hospital, but they said, oh, it's just mild. You should be okay. Let us, let us know if you've got any problems with feeding.

And I thought originally he was feeding. Okay. But then I think it was a few days in, or maybe like a week in, I can't remember. I started thinking, this doesn't feel right. And because I'd breastfed before, even though it was a, a time ago, I thought it doesn't feel the same and. I thought it's not, he doesn't, yeah, he didn't seem to be latch right.

And he didn't put on the right amount of weight, so, or he lost too much weight. I can't remember now. Um, but so, so they, I think it was the health visitor. I said, oh, I just don't think it's right. He's not latching right. And because he wasn't gaining the right amount of weight, or didn't, or lost too much weight or whatever, whatever it was at the time, um, they said, oh yeah, I think it would be a good idea to have his tongue tie, um, snipped if, um, if, if you're happy with that.

Um, so I was just like, yeah, you know, and they explained it and I said, yeah, that's fine. So we, we took him along for that. Um, and he had that procedure, and then afterwards it was actually worse. Oh no, his, um, his latch was worse. And I think what happened was he got used to feeding with the tongue tie.

Okay. And then once it had been revised, he had to learn how to feed all over again. Um, so because he wasn't gaining the right amount of weight, I was advised that um, it might be best to supplement him with formula. And at the time I was like, oh, well can I express and supplement him with my own milk? So I said, oh, you can try that, but if he's not gaining enough weight, we'd really like you to put him on formula.

So I was like, okay, well we'll try that first. Um, so I did. And um, yeah, I have to say I really don't like pumping either. Um, I haven't pumped at all with this, with this breastfeeding journey, I think just because of the association with it. Yeah. Um, from with indie, so I ended up doing a bit of triple feeding really, where I was feeding him, expressing, topping him up with breast milk.

And I did that for six weeks. And that was really difficult. That was the most difficult part of, of it all. That's a long time. Um, but he started, he started gaining weight and he, he started thriving and yeah, it, it, and then after that period of six weeks, it all sort of righted itself and I didn't need to top him up anymore.

He was, um, his latch was fine and he was feeding fine and he was managing to get enough milk off himself and he was gaining weight and he was, he was doing well. So it, it, it worked, but that period of time was really tough. It was really tiring. It, it was a lot of pressure on my, on my body and it was, it was quite draining.

It was, it was a difficult time, but we got through it and we're still going, so. Yeah. 

[00:55:57] Emma Pickett: Yeah. But that's a, 

[00:55:58] Michelle: yeah, 

[00:55:58] Emma Pickett: that's a long time to do triple feeding. And, and thank you for mentioning that you haven't been pumping with River. 'cause I think it's really healthy for people to, you know, you've rested for nearly a year and you've not pumped at all.

Um, and that is absolutely doable. People think, oh, pumping is a compulsory part of a breastfeeding journey. Not at all. I've just seen the beautiful chunky river and, uh, no pumping was required. Um, okay, thanks. You two. Okay, so we're getting to the end of my questions now. You've actually answered some of them within the context of other answers.

So if anyone's counting, we're not gonna get to 12 questions. Uh, next question is, so we're gonna go a little bit hippie here. Bear with me. I want you to describe for me what you think your last feed is going to be like with, with Nor and with Indy. Where do you think you'll be? What do you think it's gonna be?

What time of day do you think it's gonna be? What do you think the last feed will be like? If you were to, if I asked you to imagine it, what do you think's likely? Let's start with you, Lara. 

[00:56:50] Lara: Oh, I don't know. Even thinking about it makes it a bit emotional unless it's quite sad. Um. I hope it'll be like maybe before bed and having those last cuddles or perhaps, perhaps not.

Or in the morning. Even just having those last like close, close cuddles that you get with a breastfeed. Um, 

[00:57:10] Emma Pickett: uh, can I just add that you may not know it's the last feed. So especially you are talking about both of, you're talking about maybe possibly self weaning or possibly that's one option. Um, so it's, it's really likely that you wouldn't know it was the last feed if you, if you were letting the child take the lead.

So don't feel it's gonna be having this huge emotional weight around it. 'cause it just may be the last feed without you realizing I have no idea what, where my child's last feed were. Um, which actually does is actually sounds a bit weird, but actually it's lovely 'cause it just means that there's no heaviness to it.

It just, one day you really, you actually look back and go, gosh, it's been, how long's it been? And then, then they ask again. You go, okay, okay, fine, fine. And then it goes another few weeks and you go, oh, well that must be it then. Um, it just happens that one day they don't ask again. You don't realize. But it's like that thing about, um.

One day you don't pick your kid up anymore. Like I'm pretty sure Michelle, you're not carrying around your 23-year-old one day, no one day. You never picked him up again. One day it was the last time you carried him. Um, and you don't know when that was. Um, and just happens naturally. 

[00:58:11] Michelle: Oh, I can't remember that.

Oh, it's the last, you have lots of, you have lots of lasts and lots 

[00:58:16] Emma Pickett: of first in motherhood. Yeah. Yeah. And you dunno, so that thing about carrying your child, I actually did a, a tweet, a tweet about that once to say, uh, you know, I, I was with my 18-year-old who was 18 at the time, and, and we were, we thought, well, that's not okay that I haven't carried you for 15 years.

I'm gonna carry you. So I did a little big piggyback and gave him a piggyback. I did a tweet about it and I still see that tweet coming up online. Aw. It's still, it's still being shared by people. So it obviously has really connected with people. Um, so probably bedtime, you're gonna be relish in the cuddles when it happens.

What do you imagine your last feed as Michelle. I really 

[00:58:50] Michelle: don't know. I really, I've never thought, thought about it really. I think because there's so much emotional weight around it, both happy and sad, both frustrating and not, you know, it's like there's been times where I've wished it was the last feed.

That's so true. You know, can we just stop? Can't this just be, you know, you know, we've done it for so long. So it's such a, it's such a a, a weighted thing, isn't it? Um, and I just think, I, I think if I imagine it, it would probably be a before bed and you know, that maybe that last time that he needs it to support him to go to sleep.

Maybe one night, he'll, I don't need it to go to sleep now. And I won't know that the last time was the last time, but maybe it was a nice one where he was just getting cuddled to sleep and he felt fell asleep. Um, breastfeeding. 

[00:59:45] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Final question. If someone's listening to this and they're breastfeeding a 2-year-old and they're thinking, oh, I'm not sure about breastfeeding a 3-year-old, that sounds a bit weird.

What messages would you want to give people about breastfeeding three year olds? Again, it doesn't have to be profound or weighty or anything. What would you, if someone said, oh, what's it like breastfeeding a 3-year-old? What would you say? What would you say? Lara, 

[01:00:10] Lara: you probably don't realize that they're like three, that they're as big as what they actually are since having another child, like, and a baby feeding a baby and a three-year-old.

You, you, you just don't really like to other people. Three or four years old or five years old, sounds like they're old. You forget this. They are still quite like little, they've got their own emotions and whilst they're not babies, you know, they're little hands and so forth, they're quite little in comparison to like, you know.

Teenager or you know, an adult, this, they're still little in their own way. So, you know, I'd say don't let them grow up too quick with that. You know, hold on to whatever you can. 

[01:00:54] Emma Pickett: Aw, that's very deep and thank thanks for showing that. Lara, what about you Michelle? What do you want people to know about feeding a 3-year-old?

[01:01:00] Michelle: I think I probably thought it was a bit weird feeding a 3-year-old when I was feeding a 2-year-old. You know, I don't think it's, um, I think it's a common feeling and, and, and, um, but what I think now is feeding a 3-year-old doesn't feel much more different than feeding a 2-year-old. True. And exactly what you just said is, you know, he's still a baby.

Really. They're still babies. Um, and I know they don't look like babies. But they are still babies. Yeah. You know, and, and I just think it's, I don't think it's that different. I think, I think I thought it was going to be different and I think maybe people would think it's much more different, a 3-year-old than a 2-year-old.

But in the reality of when, now that I am feeding a 3-year-old, it doesn't feel much different to when he was two. 

[01:01:49] Lara: Yeah. Feels the same. The years blur and you're like Totally. Yeah. Two, three. Yeah. It feels exactly the same. So if anything, the behaviors, like, you know, you, it's easier to put boundaries in place for a 3-year-old Yes.

Than it was for a 2-year-old. 

[01:02:03] Michelle: Their understandings a lot easier, isn't it? Yeah. 

[01:02:05] Lara: Like, no, I don't like that. They're like, oh, okay. And you give them an alternative. They're like, okay, that's a good idea. I'll do that instead. So actually, if anything comes a bit easier for something you don't like that they're doing, like the fiddling, whatever, it's easier to be like, no, I don't actually like that.

We try something else. Okay. Then we're open to it. Rather than, no, I don't want, yeah, I want to do that. 

[01:02:28] Michelle: Because they're becoming, they're, they're at that age where they're becoming their autonomy and they're able to tell you they don't like something. So I think they're then be able to understand that you don't like something.

And you're right. It is, it's a bit easier. 

[01:02:41] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Communication is such a gift, isn't it? Weaning a 14 month old. Oof. That's tough. That is tough. People sometimes say, oh, it's easy when they can't talk. Are you kidding me? Goodness me. I mean, those, the, the, the toughest age is, is that kind of 12 to 18 month age.

I 

[01:02:55] Michelle: wound wounded my eldest at 12 months and it was, it wasn't really, even though it was now 22 years ago, I can still remember how hard it was. 

[01:03:04] Emma Pickett: Wow. 

[01:03:05] Michelle: Yeah. 

[01:03:06] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Okay. You've very generously given me an hour of your time, so I'm gonna say goodbye to you and I'd love to hear how things continue and, and give me an update on when you finally do finish your breastfeeding journeys.

I think you are both amazing tandem feeding and feeding through your olds. I think you should both be incredibly proud of where you are and, and thank you so much for sharing your stories today.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.