Aisha's story - bigger boobs and two breastfeeding mums

This week, I’m joined by the brilliant Aisha Graham from Bristol. Aisha is mum to a nine-month-old daughter, and a five-year-old son, who her wife Lauren gave birth to. Our conversation delves into the dynamics of a same-sex family, co-nursing decisions, advocating for yourself and the importance of support during complex medical situations, including Aisha’s unexpected appendectomy shortly after childbirth which meant dealing with an emergency hospitalisation with an 11-day-old baby nursling. We also talk about breastfeeding with big boobs - something which needs to be discussed more in breastfeeding spaces.

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

Resources mentioned - 

Kate Battersby IBCLC https://www.theperfectstart.org.uk/ 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm really happy today to be looking at Aisha Graham from Bristol.

Aisha is married to her lovely wife, Lauren. She has a son who's nearly five called L and a daughter who's nine months called E. And we're gonna be talking about Aisha's breastfeeding journey and her decisions around co-nursing with her wife and something exciting that happened when her daughter was about 11 days old.

And we're also gonna be talking about big boobs. So that's the headlines for our conversation today. I hope you don't mind me describing you as having big boobs. I sure said. Okay. No, that's fine. I, I say that as a member of the big boob team. I was K-cup when I was back, when I was breastfeeding. So, um, I think that means I'm allowed to say big boobs, but if I describe your body in a way that doesn't feel comfortable, you, you must shout at me.

Mm-hmm. I heard you speak at the Bristol Infant Feeding Conference, which was, was that back in May, 2025? It was quite a long, yeah, 

[00:01:42] Aisha Graham: it was a while. Yeah. I think E was, yeah, four or five months. So, yeah. 

[00:01:48] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And, and you were just so brilliant at talking and no pressure, but you were so brilliant and connected with people and described your world and it was just great to hear you talk.

So I was really excited when you said you'd be happy to go on the podcast. Okay. Let's talk about your own feeding journey. So before you had your daughter, you had your son, but your wife was the one who gave birth to him. Does that mean that you had lived among breastfeeding and you had all this amazing breastfeeding knowledge and you were in a very different place from the average person who gives birth for the first time?

Tell me about your feelings around breastfeeding before you gave birth to your daughter. 

[00:02:27] Aisha Graham: I mean, yeah, I guess I, I, I would say I had a leg up, um, compared to, you know, families where the other parent typically, maybe the dad or perhaps, um, solo parents wouldn't have that kind of, um, in-house face-to-face support.

But the support is only one part of it, I think. I think so much of it is to do with just having the representation, um, and the imagery and, and it, it just, it's existing in the first place. And breastfeeding very much existed in my world, and it existed in my current world when I was, um, trying to conceive and, and when I was pregnant because my wife was breastfeeding our older child and still is, and he is almost, um, five now.

Fantastic. So for me, it, it was beyond normalized. It was, it was very much a part of the makeup of our lives, but even prior to that, uh, I think I've been fairly lucky in, in that my, my mother breastfed myself and my two siblings. Um, all very, very different journeys. There kind of, there's, there's some age gaps involved and, and disabilities and things.

But she, she breastfed all of us to, uh, for various lengths. And yeah, so, so it kind of was already in the fabric of, of who I am. And so I already knew that it was possible and that it existed. And I think for so many people that I encounter, particularly women and pregnant people or people trying to conceive in my generation, that in itself is almost a big feat.

Just, just having people around them that have done it, uh, at all. And, and, and we all know that. We don't see it in terms of media, press, et cetera. Well, we hardly see it. You have to seek it out. Yeah. So if it's not in your family and it's not in your social circles, cultural circles, then, then yes. It won't be forefront of mind.

So I had it. All over the place. So for me it wasn't a big leap to be like, yes, I want to breastfeed. Yes, I think I can and I'm confident to, to do so. 

[00:04:49] Emma Pickett: Yeah, it'll be really interesting to do some research, which as I begin the sentence, realize is never gonna happen. Where you actually look at the second birthing partner, you know?

Yeah. The birthing parent in a relationship where there's been a previous birthing parent who has successfully fed what it must be like to have seen breastfeeding up close for years. I mean, in your case, you, your son must have been about three when you were pregnant with E. So yes, it's quite a long, you know, you saw breastfeeding for many, many years.

I wonder whether that means that the second birthing parent is more likely to have more positive feeding outcomes. It'd be really interesting to know. Yes. I dunno what that research would do, but it would just be curious to see whether, um, that is the issue. Whether we do notice that, but I guess we can't really send a, a previous breastfeeding person to go and live with someone who's going to be getting pregnant.

So not much we can take from that research. But it would be interesting to know, 

[00:05:41] Aisha Graham: and I wonder if it works oppositionally as well, you know, if, if the, if it is kind of each, each parent having a go with the pregnancy and birthing, if, if it works in that, the, the, the first one to go. If, if they decide not to feed or, or it doesn't work out or it's, you know, very stressful or something happens whether that then it would surely have a knock on effect then.

Yeah, I think for the, for the second. Go. Yeah. I 

[00:06:07] Emma Pickett: mean, we know that people that don't reach their fitting goals are very likely to have some kind of, you know, trauma or grief around that. And it's really hard that that would not rub off on your partner. Mm-hmm. And you've seen you go through that, um mm-hmm.

Um, yeah. Really interesting to know what goes on there. Um, so you decided it was time for number two. Mm-hmm. And you'd picked an interval, presumably, but obviously you didn't necessarily know whether you'd be successful first round. No. But you, you, you picked your interval. I'm not asking for the, the details of conception 'cause you have the right now to tell me about that, but when you got pregnant, did you need an antenatal class?

Were you feeling like that wasn't necessary? Where, where were you when it comes to your kind of breastfeeding education? 

[00:06:47] Aisha Graham: I mean, it is obviously again, a more atypical situation in that I was proxy to somebody being pregnant and birthing and everything that goes along with that prior to myself conceiving.

But, but yeah, we did do antenatal courses when my wife was pregnant with our son and it was the height of COVID, I should say. It was, it was 2020. So yeah, they were, they were all online sessions. Um, and we do still actually have a couple of friends, um, from that group. So we were quite lucky. But I would say the breastfeeding side of it wasn't amazing.

It was kind of, I wouldn't say it was quite glossed over. I think we, we did do a, a, a session on it from memory, but I don't think it was, it, it was very top level and you know, I think very carefully done, I guess to placate everybody and whatever their backgrounds and their wishes were. So, you know, it obviously wasn't memorable, put it that way.

Yeah. And my wife was very keen on, on. Breastfeeding. Uh, and I, I, I do remember her feeling that it was a bit lacking, but we didn't know what was gonna hit us. So we kind of, yeah. And, and I should say that my wife had a very, very difficult journey with breastfeeding at the beginning. Uh, and you know, she's been quite lucky in her life that her mental health has always been pretty stable.

And it's one of the only times I've ever seen her in a very, very dark place. And it, it didn't, it was around 10 weeks, um, until things settled down and, and the, the feeding kind of was, was established and working for both of them. And COVID didn't help, I think, in those times. So yeah, we definitely were not prepared for the, for the gargantuan task of, of, of breastfeeding and, and the support that we would need, and that would be lacking, unfortunately.

[00:09:00] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Can I just ask you a quick question? Yeah. Just taking off your parent birthing parent hat and, and putting on your parent of your son hat, what was it like watching your wife go through that and, and how did you support her? I mean, what, what kind of, how did you go about doing that in a way that was kind of respectful of her goals and because I've never actually been able to talk to someone who was watching someone go through a horrible breastfeeding experience without the other person being in the room.

So I'm just curious as to how that, how that felt for you and, and what you did to support her during that time. 

[00:09:32] Aisha Graham: It was difficult for me in that I'm kind of one of those people that's very, I, I enjoy solving problems. I'm a fixer, I'm a doer, and, you know, I'm quite protective of the people I love and I'm also very prepared.

It's kind of, um, my nature and, and my career in that I project manage everything. So. It was really difficult. I, you know, it definitely gave me some empathy for dads and men that I had known whose partners had had babies, you know, recently, you know, because I did feel quite useless, quite helpless. And, you know, even though I was a woman and I had breasts, I felt like I couldn't really help her other than being physically present, being emotionally supportive, you know, I did, I did help with the research and of finding a lactation consultant and, and what have you.

But yeah, it was really hard and our son had difficulty with gaining weight and, um, because it was COVID, we had to go out in the snow every couple of days to a clinic because health visitors wouldn't come to us to weigh the baby. That was very stressful. And lactation IBCLCs were not coming out because of COVID.

And yeah, it was, it was all just thinking about it now. I mean, it just feels like a huge weight that was on my wife and, and me and, and then, you know, the family that we weren't really seeing, but we would send pictures and videos and get comments like, yeah, I, I tried to protect my wife from these, but you know, he's looking thin or, or, um, have you thought about formula and stuff like that.

And it was, it was all incredibly difficult and sensitive and vulnerable and I, I, I guess I supported best I could and I was very much on the same page with her, with breastfeeding. You know, I knew how important it was for her and I think especially because her birth hadn't gone the way well, that either of us had hoped.

She won't mind me saying that she had an emergency cesarean after an induction. So, yeah, it, it, it all just was a very, very different, probably one of the most difficult times of both of our lives, I would say. Yeah. But he's, I think for a large reason that she's still feeling feeding now because it was so important and continues to be so important.

[00:12:10] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:12:11] Aisha Graham: Yeah. 

[00:12:11] Emma Pickett: Well, it's amazing to hear, um, that she came through all that and is now feeding him as he turns nearly turns five. That's fantastic to know. And, and, um, yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Um, okay, let's go back to your pregnancy. How was your pregnancy? Tell me about your birth. 

[00:12:26] Aisha Graham: So my pregnancy was, I would say fairly uneventful, low risk, I should say, that.

Um, I'm a fat person and I use that as a term, as sort of a factual descriptor, as, uh, morally neutral, but appreciate that. Others may not use it that way, but, but I'm comfortable describing myself as fat, so I would be. You know, in the high BMI range. Uh, and so in the fertility clinic, 'cause we did use IVF for myself, you know, we did face some barriers because of, because of that.

And also we, our expectations were managed by the clinic professionals in that, you know, my high BMI, along with other factors like my age, so I was, I was 36 when we started trying and my low egg count, I had a low A MH, um, which is just your egg reserve basically. Uh, and we were basically told it wasn't going to work first time, the chances were incredibly low.

So I had, we both had not expected it to work. And it did work first time. And so I think the first few months I was in shock and hadn't quite processed that I was pregnant because everyone had told me that I. Wouldn't be. Mm-hmm. But medically and physically, yes, everything went along swimmingly. I, I had quite a lot of nausea and sickness.

Didn't particularly enjoy the first half of my pregnancy. Much preferred the second half carried on working as normal, was still able to move around. Yeah. Everything was, was kind of fine. I did have to fight off the, the medical professionals a bit of, you know, wanting to put me in a high risk category for whatever the reason was.

But generally it was all good. And I planned a home birth and, uh, you know, again, my wife's experience of, of pregnancy and birth definitely informed my choices planned. A home birth was allowed, I guess to, to follow that route. And I did end up with an emergency c-section much like my wife. 

[00:14:37] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:14:38] Aisha Graham: But it all was a little bit less fraught, I would say, because I kind of made.

The decisions and advocated a lot better than we had the first time around. So yeah, it was, it was all Okay. In the grand scheme of things, I wouldn't say I have any birth trauma, I have birth disappointment, is how I describe it. That's a, 

[00:15:00] Emma Pickett: that's a really interesting phrase. You know, I've never heard anyone use that phrase before.

That is, I think, okay, tm, Aisha Graham, but someone else must have said it. But I, I think that's a great phrase that just really helps people understand what that feels like. Talking about being a fat person and having bigger breasts, obviously not all fat people have bigger breasts, but bigger breasts are part of your story and mine too.

What do you remember about those really early breastfeeding attempts and the kind of support you were getting, um, and, and did it match your body shape and what in the information that you needed? 

[00:15:33] Aisha Graham: So, I would say antenatally, uh, any imagery I had seen. So, um, I did the, the lecture league beginning breastfeeding course over two evenings, uh, quite late in pregnancy.

In fact, I was in labor during those sessions. 

[00:15:49] Emma Pickett: Whoa, that must have freaked out the other people on the course. Why, why is I just screaming in the, in the corner of the Zoom call? 

[00:15:56] Aisha Graham: There was actually two other, the attendees that were also in labor, 

[00:16:00] Emma Pickett: so Oh, wow. Really? Yeah. 

[00:16:01] Aisha Graham: Um, it was, we were all bouncing on our balls, you know?

[00:16:04] Emma Pickett: Wow. I guess that's a good thing to distract yourself with and just focus on something else. Why not? Yes. Yeah, 

[00:16:10] Aisha Graham: and I, I, I, I must say as well, I actually really enjoyed labor then and the contractions. I, I got to seven and a half centimeters and I really was so close. Um, but, but yeah, I could do it again tomorrow.

Uh, I was, I, I really enjoyed, uh, up to seven and a half centimeters and then, and then yes, it was taken outta my hands, but yeah, so. The imagery. Imagery. I think very famously they use the, is it the, the World Health something Videos? They are lots of videos that are actually amazing of um, 

[00:16:44] Emma Pickett: are you talking about global health media?

Maybe. Maybe that's it. Yes. Yeah, yeah. 

[00:16:47] Aisha Graham: Yes. Uh, I have both my wife and her, I have very conflicting views around these videos because, especially with her, because her breastfeeding was so difficult and these videos really do make it look so easy and talk about it. So matter of fact, and I guess 'cause it's a sensitive topic when you've struggled with breastfeeding, it's, you can't help but feel inferior when you think of those videos, I think.

Um, so yes. Anyway, but that's by the by. So we'd seen those videos and from memory, none of those people had. Breasts. Very, very big breasts. And then also the imagery that's used in breastfeeding, teaching materials and just, you know, any NHS materials and videos, all the ones I've seen, they all have kind of small or average size breasts, I would say.

[00:17:47] Emma Pickett: Yeah, there's a lot of nipples coming out at right angles. There's a lot of perky nipples that stick, you know, one and a half centimeters away from the body and very little of nipples pointing down very little of breasts with any droop and very little large breasts. And very little large breasts of flat nipples.

The, the global health media videos, I think you and I would both agree that, and I'm sure your wife would too, they are diverse in terms of ethnicity and skin tone, and there are lots of black and brown women and birthing people in those videos. And there's one video that has a completely flat nipple and a baby attaching to a completely flat nipple, which is a very rare representation.

But you're right, there is a kind of jaunty positive tone, isn't there? It's kind of like, this is what we do and it's kind of gonna work. And I think there's one video where someone's not latching on brilliantly and, and that's a kinda demonstration of not great latching. But other than that, it's all very calm and straightforward and it's not troubleshooting, it's just this is the way breastfeeding works.

So I can understand that might rub someone up the wrong way. Yeah, the perky nipple at right angles and I so rarely meet those in real life. Everyone's trying to pretend their baby is coming onto a breast that shape with the breastfeeding pillow, even if they're not that shape. Yeah. It's exhausting, isn't it?

[00:18:59] Aisha Graham: Yeah. And, and I should say as well, that, I was going to say with, besides from those global health media videos, you know, you don't, you don't see those other representations, not just large breasts, we're talking any breasts that aren't, you know, on white young women really, uh, that have small, fairly small olas and, and, and, yeah.

Uh, like you said, you know, perky, very protruding nipples that, that, uh, yeah. Most people I know don't have either. And, and my wife has large breasts too, even larger than mine. And so we'd kind of been through this before and so I guess we were prepared for that lack of representation. Uh, yeah. I 

[00:19:40] Emma Pickett: mean, it's interesting to take a moment just to think about why there is that lack of representation because it's not like the people in breastfeeding support aren't a range of body shapes.

You know, I know some fantastic lactation consultants who are also fat and on the larger side. So what is going on? I wonder whether sometimes it's that women who do, who are bigger or people that are bigger, feel othered and don't want to take part in taking photographs and being videoed and having education looking at them because they're so tired of their body being criticized.

They're so tired of feeling, um, you know, rejected and othered by society. So maybe that's part of the reason they're not volunteering to take part or, or wanting to take part. But there has to also to be a decision on behalf of the creators of images, um, that they're choosing to pick something that almost feels like the universal breast.

So, because larger breasts vary in shape and angle, and nipples vary in shape and angle. Maybe it's, it means you'd have to have five different representations of what cradle hold looks like or cross cradle hold or rugby hold. Whereas if we as pretend everyone's got the perky smaller to medium sized breasts, you can have his, here's the one cradle hold picture.

Here's the one rugby hold picture. But it it as I think I'm sure you'd agree too, if we don't get that right imagery, people make horrible mistakes and they get damaged and they hold their breast and they lift their breast and they try and move their nipple to be the right shape and the baby's not close enough or coming from the wrong angle and people get damaged, people get mastitis, babies don't get milk, you know?

Yeah. People are physically in pain and emotionally in pain. Do you remember what positions your wife was using when your son was small? And I appreciate that's a bit of a stretch 'cause there's a lot going on for you there. 

[00:21:26] Aisha Graham: Yeah, so I think she was doing a fair bit of rugby ball in bed and I think she found that quite useful.

At the time, which I kind of kept in the back of my mind for myself, but it's, it wasn't really working for me. And I think I kept trying to force it and it, it just wasn't happening. I mean, I should say that when she latched really well after she was born, e uh, and I hadn't managed to harvest any colostrum, antenatally, which I'd been quite sad about because my wife had, again, this is, this is where the negatives come in with having a wife that's done it all before because she, the deadly comparisons, but she, uh, she had managed to get quite a lot of colostrum.

We have lots of syringes, and so I felt a bit rubbish that I hadn't managed to get any colostrum. 

[00:22:23] Emma Pickett: So you were trying. Mm-hmm. It wasn't just that you were working and too busy, you were literally trying and nothing was coming out. 

[00:22:28] Aisha Graham: Yeah. Every night from 36 weeks or whatever the recommendation was. Doing all the things, you know, um, a kind of dimly lit room, nice music, getting myself calm, uh, making sure I was warm and well hydrated, et cetera.

And yeah, nothing. Uh, and yeah, I just remember my wife, like the second time she tried it, got got the, yeah, the colostrum. So I was like, what's going on? And, and then I had to, you know, in my nature, do a deep dive into, into what it is. And, and actually thankfully the, the lecture league, at beginning breastfeeding course, they did cover colostrum.

And they, they said about how. It's not really a done thing in many places around the world, this, this, uh, and that it's, it's, you know, it, it doesn't indicate supply, et cetera. So that, okay, I'm very glad you got, I'm very glad you got that 

[00:23:22] Emma Pickett: message. 'cause, uh, because a lot of people think that if they can't express antenatally, they are screwed.

And for somehow that's gonna affect their milk production when baby's here, not the case at all. And there seem to be a large minority of people who just can't get milk out when they're pregnant. It's just not gonna happen. And it's not about your hand expression techniques. It's not that you've not watched the right videos, it's just not gonna happen.

And we don't really understand why. And as, as you say, as you, it doesn't mean anything when the, when the baby's born, you can still have a whopping gr over production and, and have tons of milk, but it doesn't do great things for your mental state and your confidence. 

[00:23:58] Aisha Graham: No, exactly. And so I think I did manage to dig myself out of that hole when I felt a bit rubbish.

I just stopped doing it after a few weeks and was like, I'm gonna stop and it's okay, and everything's gonna be okay. And I kind of had to give myself that internal, uh, monologue every day. And then eventually I kind of forgot about it. But actually it worked out, you know, the universe or whatever you'd like to say.

It was fine. You know, our, our son when he was born, he, he, even though he was two weeks overdue, he ended up in NICU due to hypoglycemia. And so those, those colostrum syringes were, were amazing, were brilliant, they were needed. And, um, our daughter. She was fine. She was absolutely fine when she was born and got colostrum straight from the breast.

So yeah, it was, it was all Okay. 

[00:24:50] Emma Pickett: And you, and if you'd had those syringes, you probably wouldn't have used them? No, no. The best, the best antenatal expression syringes are the ones that end up not being used 'cause um, they're not, not needed. So that was a good result. So you met, you touched before about how the rugby hole didn't quite work for you.

Do you remember what early positions did, did work for your body shape? 

[00:25:08] Aisha Graham: So obviously when I was still in the hospital recovering, you know, I was kind of semi reclined, well I would say sat up somewhat, sat up and didn't have much of a range of motion. And so to start with, I was just putting her to my breast in a, in a cradle position as that was kind of the easiest thing to do.

I could move my arms. I was fairly uncomfortable everywhere else. Couldn't quite feel my legs properly yet. She seemed to latch well and, uh, was quite sleepy as. As freshly born babies are. Yeah. It was the second night when, you know, she was more fractious and I was having some discomfort. I wouldn't say it was major pain, but, but you know, there was definitely something there that wasn't, wasn't right latch wise.

And I knew it and I was pressing the buttons and everyone else who just had babies that was on my ward was crying and they were trying to latch their babies and it was just a chorus of, of um, you know Yeah. Difficulty and new babies and yeah. So we, I tried to get support, but you know, whichever midwife or healthcare assistant was, was on shift.

Would, would basically do it differently. Yeah. Some would come and sort of take over and my wife had had this too, and would basically grab the boob and put it in the baby's mouth. Um, whereas some would watch and kind of. Try and give advice, but, you know, they're rushed, understaffed, there's lots of other things going on.

They're trying to see to your wound, your, your dressing, you know, they're trying to, and I did ask for support. So, so this second evening, she was just, I couldn't get her to stay la she was quite upset and I was having difficulty, especially on one boob. And this was in cradle position. And I raised a point to the nurse that she hadn't done a, a wee yet, and I can't remember what the policy was, whether it was eight hours or 12 hours or something.

But she needed to have done a whee, and I'd remembered that from my son's birth. Uh, I think because he had hyperglycemia and it was all a bit traumatic. I was, I was acutely aware of, of doing a, of her needing to do a whee and making sure she was, you know, getting some glucose basically from the colostrum.

So. The nurse was like, Hmm, okay, well if she hasn't done a whee in the next hour or two, we're probably gonna have to think about a top-up. And she said it very flippantly. And then I was kind of like, dazed, and then she left and I was just incredibly upset. And I rang my wife who'd gone home to obviously look after our son.

This was the second night in hospital. And you know, I said, I don't want, I don't know what she meant, but I'm presuming she meant formula. Uh, I don't want to give her formula. She's a day old. Uh, you know, I know that they don't need lots of, lots of volume of milk at this point. Uh, so yeah, I, I just was quite flummoxed by the whole thing and, and also knew that I didn't want to give a top up, but then I felt like I was on a clock.

[00:28:26] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:28:26] Aisha Graham: So I just kept her on me and on my breast and kept trying, and kept trying and trying to what little I knew of trying to have my nipple coming at her nose and not coming at her mouth and making sure she tipped her head back and had a wide open gait. But she was one day old, so obviously she wasn't kind of fully in her body yet, 

[00:28:49] Emma Pickett: let's say.

Yeah. So you knew all, you knew the stuff to do. Can I just ask you a quick question about nipple shape? So some people with larger breasts will have nipples that stick out at RightAngle. Some people will have nipples that point down. I'm not asking you to flash me Isha, but, but in cradle hold, were you able to see what was going on?

Did you have nipple shape that meant you could see latching? So 

[00:29:09] Aisha Graham: with on my left breast, yes. Uh, I could. So, uh, I have quite large Olas, but my, my nipple on my left breast is, um, it's, it's semi inverted actually. If you look at it from above, it's kind of like a. It's asymmetric, shall we say. It's kind of flat on one side and sticks out on the other side.

But yes, I did have a visual on my right breast, and even still now the nipple is more, um, downward facing. And I've had issues with latching on that one I did at the time, and I continue to do so when I got home. And, you know, you, you just don't have the visual to see your nipple in order to get the nipple in the right place.

Yeah, and this was one of my bigger issues. Was anyone 

[00:29:52] Emma Pickett: supporting you with shaping the breast or lifting it? Were you putting socks underneath your breast? Did anyone talk to you about any of those kind of techniques? 

[00:29:59] Aisha Graham: Yes. So the shaping, so a lot of my problems with early breastfeeding where I was, um, bringing my ba the baby to my breasts to the baby.

[00:30:09] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:30:10] Aisha Graham: So a lot of my issues were around my own physicality and being uncomfortable and. I wasn't relaxed, I was so tense. I had the posture of a prawn on tiptoes, basically. 

[00:30:22] Emma Pickett: Oh my God. Okay. TM Iisha Graham prawn on tiptoes. I'm just gonna make a note of that. That's, that's great language. 

[00:30:28] Aisha Graham: I was using all the cushions in my, in the household and yeah, it, so we used, uh, my wife had introduced her as well.

Kate Battersby, lactation consultant, a local tour in Bristol. And she'd saved my wife's breastfeeding journey. And so I basically had her in speed dial as soon as I was pregnant. And I text her 'cause, 'cause um, my daughter was born on her due date the 16th of December. And uh, yeah. So I'd text her straight up for birth and was like, when are you next free?

Because I'm aware it's Christmas and I don't know how this breastfeeding's gonna go, but I wanna see you anyway, even if it goes well. 

[00:31:05] Emma Pickett: Oh, I forgot to say I interrupted you in. I'm so sorry. I did interrupt you when I did. What happened with the year end? Did you get paid? Did you have to do a topup? What happened in Oh yes.

[00:31:12] Aisha Graham: So, um. My wife was like, you don't have to give formula. You know, just keep latching her on and keep requesting support. I'd requested a lactation consultant in the hospital or a feeding specialist and it was overnight, so they said no one was on shift. She didn't know when, you know, they would next be available.

And it was very busy and there were lots of babies and moms needed help. So that was not great and I just kept her on skin to skin and just, I didn't sleep all night and I just kept her on me going from breast to breast to breast to breast, trying my best. And um, then they came back. She hadn't done a whee so I requested that they do a heel prick.

I said, I don't want to give formula. Could I have a second opinion on the, on the top-up thing? And could I have a heel prick? To check for hypoglycemia. They did a heel prick and it was, her sugar levels were absolutely fine. 

[00:32:03] Emma Pickett: What a legend you are Aisha in the middle of that, not having slept, advocating yourself like that.

That's fantastic. I'm so impressed. 

[00:32:11] Aisha Graham: Thank you. And well, it wouldn't have happened had I have not bo witnessed to my wife's kind of experience and done the research I guess. So yeah, she was absolutely fine. And then as if she'd been listening like I think 15 minutes after the heel pitch she did away. So, um, you know, and it just, I've, I've ruminated on this so many times about, 'cause there's other experiences that I'm sure we'll discuss that happened, um, after I'd had her where, you know, just one word or one sentence that somebody in a, in a medical field says to you can just throw your breastfeeding journey completely off kil her.

And, you know, I could have at that point just said, okay, top up. And then that would've been a top up. And then. Kind of like with birth, the cascade of intervention. It happens in breastfeeding too. The, the cascade of, I guess, top ups or, or whatever you wanna call it, it's a cascade where they tell you about the top up, which of course is needed at times, but they don't tell you what the consequences of the topup par and you know, they don't ask you what your, what your plans, what your long-term goals are.

And so I knew that if we topped up, that might solve the, the here and now problem, but it might also cause me other problems going forward and completely disrupt my plan to exclusively breastfeed. Yeah, there's there's so much there. There's so much there. I could talk about that. I just wish all of these people working in this field could just, I, I guess, have access to better training and understanding of all of this stuff.

[00:33:48] Emma Pickett: I mean, it just speaks volumes, doesn't it? That because it was dark. There was nobody in the building who was an infant feeding specialist, and there's a bunch of babies who are going to be feeding, and they don't know the difference between day and night when they're one day old and two days old. It is extraordinary that there can be so little emphasis placed on, on feeding.

And some hospitals in the UK don't even have infant feeding specialists around on the weekends, or they work part-time or they're not IBCLCs or, you know, it's a, we are in a mess. You know, we can, we can talk about the good stuff, but we can't deny we're in a mess in lots of different ways. And, and you're talking about just nine months ago.

This isn't even a five years ago story. This isn't even a COVID story. 

[00:34:26] Aisha Graham: Mm-hmm.

[00:34:31] Emma Pickett: I'd love to tell you about my four most recent books. So we've got the story of Jesse's Milky, which is a picture book from two to six year olds that really tells the story of Little Jesse and how his breastfeeding journey may come to an end in one of three different ways. Maybe there'll be a new baby sister.

Maybe his mom will need to practice parenthood weaning. Maybe he will have a self weaning ending. It's a book that helps your little people understand that there are lots of different ways breastfeeding journeys might end, that we are there to support them through all of them. And also we sometimes have needs to also on endings, we have supporting the transition from breastfeeding, which is a guide to weaning that really talks through how to bring breastfeeding to a close in a way that protects your emotional connection with your child.

There are also chapters on different individual situations like weaning an older child when there's still a baby, feeding, weaning in an emergency, weaning in a special needs situation. Then we have supporting breastfeeding past the first six months and beyond. That's really a companion to sit alongside you as you carry on breastfeeding through babyhood and beyond.

What are the common challenges and how can we overcome them? And let's hear some stories about other people who've had a natural term breastfeeding. Then we have the breast book, which is a puberty guide for nine to 14 year olds. It talks about how breasts grow. It answers common questions. It talks about what breastfeeding is.

I talk about brass. I really want to leave a little person feeling confident and well-informed as breasts enter their lives. So if you want to buy any of those books, I am eternally grateful. If you want to buy one of the supporting books, you can go to the Jessica Kingsley Press website. That's uk.jkp.com.

Use the code mm pe 10 to get 10% off. And if you have read one of those books and you can take a moment to do an online review, I would be incredibly grateful. It really, really makes a difference. And as you can tell from the fact I'm making this advert, I have no publicity budget. Thank you.

Okay, so you got home, you contacted Kate. Did Kate Cummins watch you and help you with your conditioning? Yes, 

[00:36:43] Aisha Graham: she did. And um, the first thing was she, she came in and she was like, what the hell is going on with all these cushions? She was like, take them away. Because one of the midwives I'd had that had been seeing me, you know, at day two and day five, and I should say that she only lost 5% of her, uh, weight and my daughter.

So by the day five or whatever it was. So we were actually doing really well, which much better than, than my son had done. But I was still having discomfort and fully enough it, I dunno if this comes up on your podcast a lot when you're talking to people, but I had the nipple discomfort so there were latch issues and it definitely suboptimal latch, but it was my body discomfort.

It was my physicality that was, that was so destroyed. My shoulders, my neck, my back. So you're hunch 

[00:37:30] Emma Pickett: you're hunching over to try and see. Yes. 'cause visibility's not great. You've got all that tension around your neck and shoulders. You're curling your spine and mm-hmm. And yeah, and your arms and shoulders.

But for lots of people, particularly people with bigger breasts and chest, it is a, it is that hunch, that's that classic leaning prawn over pra. 

[00:37:47] Aisha Graham: Yeah. 

[00:37:47] Emma Pickett: Yep. The prawn on tiptoes. Yep. Yeah, it is that curly prawn shape, isn't it? You're trying to desperately see what's happening and your neck just stays in prawn position.

Mm-hmm. Okay. So Kate said, forget rid of the cushions and she wanted you to be more inclined, I'm guessing, and more relaxed. 

[00:38:02] Aisha Graham: Yeah, so the, A midwife had kind of basically in my, in my, uh, follow up appointments just after she was born, had kind of gathered all the cushions and was held because I was saying how uncomfortable, um, I was.

And she just patted me left, right, and center. And then Kate turned off and was like whipped them all away and I'd been like heavily researching breastfeeding nursing pillows and which ones would be best for me with large breasts and what have you. She was like, no, don't be spending any money on that.

So I was like, okay. And also I, I was literally on tiptoes. I was sat on my couch, tiptoes, so tense and she was just like pushing my feet into the floor. She was like, get your feet down, get grounded. You need to be stable. And so the first amazing, simple, obvious, I guess thing she did is got, got me comfortable and then she helped with, so we tried a bit of rugby ball and yeah, it was just too difficult.

I dunno if it was our couch or if it was me, but it just wasn't happening. Couldn't get the baby. The baby was bigger than our first baby, so she, with my right breast where the nipple points down more and it is, it is my larger breast. Anyway, she, um, we did the old rolled up Muslim thing. Muslim thing, which actually my wife had done and we'd both forgotten.

So, and as soon as she said it, we were like, ah, yes, we did that first time around. 

[00:39:28] Emma Pickett: So for anyone who doesn't know what we're talking about. Yes. Describe, describe what you're doing. 

[00:39:31] Aisha Graham: So you get a muslin or a tea towel or any bit of cloth fabric, I guess. Roll it up into a sausage and, you know, put it under the breast basically.

And, uh, for anybody with large breasts, as you would know, um, we can pretty much store anything under the, there's, there's lots of space. 

[00:39:49] Emma Pickett: Packet of digestive biscuits. Yeah. I think I could list 

[00:39:52] Aisha Graham: a chair with my, with my breasts. I 

[00:39:54] Emma Pickett: genuinely think I could actually, of course. I'm not gonna do it for you right now.

I gen This is why we're not a YouTube podcast. No. 'cause I genuinely think we could both do that. Yes, 

[00:40:01] Aisha Graham: absolutely. Yes. So we, we did that and that did just help tilt the breast enough to give me Yes. That nipple 

[00:40:09] Emma Pickett: tilt. 

[00:40:10] Aisha Graham: Yeah, the visual. And I did that for months and actually I think I was out and about, you know, a lot more confident with feeding maybe four or five months in.

And I just kind of, I didn't even consciously stop using it. I just stopped using it. Because I guess she was just latching herself and it was, it was fine. And so for anyone listening that's like, how am I gonna manage? I don't wanna be out and about with a, with a Muslim, my breast. And why? It's like, well, it's not forever.

And, and actually, depending on how large breasts your breasts are, you can't even see it. I mean, 

[00:40:42] Emma Pickett: yeah, 

[00:40:43] Aisha Graham: my breasts swallowed it up, so you could probably have put a few under there and you would never have known. 

[00:40:49] Emma Pickett: Ball of socks is a, is a good one as well. Just doesn't have to, you know, Muslims are around, they're literally draped all over us at this point.

So grabbing one and rolling one up is a, is a good plan. So let's go back to this first couple of weeks. I, I touched on this in the introduction. Something happened around day 10, day 11 postnatally. Um, tell us what happened. 

[00:41:10] Aisha Graham: So, I, I had a cesarean, which I mentioned, and, uh, you know, I was obviously in a bit of pain, abdominally, uh, after birth.

And I was spending quite a lot of time in bed and on the couch as you do. And uh, my daughter was born in December and it was coming up for Christmas. We were at home. Yeah, actually it was, I think it was the day after boxing Day 27th of December. I'd, I'd ended up probably as soon as I got home from the hospital, I'd tied a dressing gown, rope, the end of my bed because I was finding it so hard to get up from, from a lay down or, or lie down equally.

So any movement that involved me sort of bending the waist, I was in a lot of pain. Now I'm quite stoic with, with painkillers and stuff, so I was just taking my paracetamols. I wasn't taking the heaviest stuff they'd given me, but it was getting harder and harder to move. And weirdly, this is what brought me into co co-sleeping.

I had her next to me, but I was finding it so difficult to roll over, sit up, get her out of the next to me. That I ended up co-sleeping and thank God I did. 'cause it's been amazing. But, uh, I digress. So my wife who'd also had a cesarean was starting to think it was quite weird that my pain was getting worse and not better.

Yeah. And, and I did start taking the heavier stuff and in the end I, I needed to get up to go to the toilet and I just couldn't move without being in excruciating pain. I couldn't get up, I couldn't swivel myself outta the bed. And I said to my wife, I think there's something wrong. I feel like this can't just be cesarean pain.

So we called 1 1 1 and they said, uh, we'll call you an ambulance. Uh, which they did. They came out two very lovely paramedics did all my obs, which were okay. My temperature was high, but everything seemed okay. But with abdominal, you know, they, they can't really do more tests. 

[00:43:13] Emma Pickett: And they're probably thinking uterine something about you, you, you know, postpartum stuff.

Mm-hmm. Um, I guess that's what maybe what you and your wife are thinking as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

[00:43:23] Aisha Graham: So, you know, I dunno. Yeah, we, we probably thought it might have been a UTI, uh, and I'd never had one before. I've always been quite lucky, so I didn't really know what they felt like, so I was like, probably as a UTI, not sure, but I don't have pain when I'm urinating, so that's a bit odd.

But there you go. So they said, we think you're in enough pain that you need to go to hospital, so we're happy to take you to hospital. 

[00:43:47] Emma Pickett: And what do you do with, with your son and your daughter at that time? 

[00:43:50] Aisha Graham: Good question. So I said, okay, but the baby's coming with me. Yep. They said no. I said, I'm not going.

Then they said, okay, that's your choice, but we would advise you do. I said, my baby is 11 days old. I'm taking her with me. I'm, I'm still establishing breastfeeding. She's coming with me. They said, okay. Then we were talking about how to get our car seat into the ambulance, uh, which we did figure out. And then they were like, well, you're gonna have to go to a and e.

And I said, no, I'm not going to a and e with a newborn baby at Christmas. And they were like, okay. They were really great. And I was just saying what I would and wouldn't do. And basically, one of the paramedics rang a, a locum gp, I think, or a doctor and, and basically was trying to get me directly admitted to a ward.

Which they ended up being successful then. 

[00:44:48] Emma Pickett: I'm just so impressed with you, Isha. I'm so impressed with how you're able to just talk about what you need and, and people responded to, to you. People just listened. You know, you're obviously so good at communicating that, you know, these lovely paramedics, you must have had a pretty rough few days 'cause they've just survived Christmas.

Ah, just saying, right, we're gonna do what we can do for you. Brilliant. Yes. 

[00:45:07] Aisha Graham: And I just think it is a, you know, am I allowed to swear on this podcast? Yeah, go on. Okay. Okay. So I am from Liverpool originally, and I've always been a gob shy. This is how my friends and family would describe me. Um, I, I've, I talk very openly about anything and I, I'm not scared of, you know, saying what I need and, um, you know, it's, it's, I really try and hammer it home, especially for women, uh, in healthcare settings.

Look at a wall. If you're struggling to say what you need, you don't have to look at them. 'cause white coat syndrome even I get a bit of it, you know, but, but you, it's so, so important because, especially in a healthcare setting, because it really can be life or death or, you know, not quite that extreme. But still it's so, so incredibly important for your wellbeing to Yeah.

Speak up. And, and it's always, you know, what's the worst that can happen? They're gonna say no. And you say, okay, you might feel a bit silly and that's it. But yeah, I, I just said, I was just saying no to everything, and they clearly were worried enough about me, and they made it happen. I, I, I got, um, admitted directly to a ward, a surgical ward with my baby.

My wife had to stay at home with our son. Obviously. We got to the hospital and then the matron. Came in and started talking about social services because they can't be responsible for a newborn baby, and I can't be responsible for a newborn baby if I'm really ill, which I was. So then I was ringing my wife like, you need to get here because they're gonna send some social workers in.

And basically she rang my dad, who lives around the corner from us, um, nonstop until he answered around 3:00 AM and came over to look after us on, and then she could come to hospital. 

[00:46:58] Emma Pickett: Gosh, that's a scary moment. Mm-hmm. Okay. So what are they finding in hospital? 

[00:47:02] Aisha Graham: So they did, you know, they, they did some, um, checking of my abdomen and did my obs again and again, high temperature, obviously in pain.

They put me on fluids, gave me some painkillers. They didn't know what it was, and I said to them, could it be appendicitis? And they were like. It's unlikely, but it could be. And where I was having pain, they were like, Hmm, this probably isn't that. But you know, we'll give you a CT scan. Probably eight hours later I got a CT scan.

And then not long after that they told me that yes, my appendix was very inflamed, fit to burst. The consultant said, and uh, so then they scheduled me for surgery and all probably, which probably happened a day later, but all the while, you know, I was still establishing breastfeeding with my little baby.

[00:47:53] Emma Pickett: So Was your wife allowed to be on the ward with you? Yes. So she's allowed to sleep in a chair next to you and she's helping looking after your daughter? Um, yes. Is that something? 

[00:48:04] Aisha Graham: Yes. And yes, it was, uh, thank God. And you know, she was my daughter. The, the baby was, was really just textbook. She wasn't making a fuss and she was feeding quite.

And then when my consultant told me that the surgery was happening, she said, I was breastfeeding at the time and she said, yes, we're gonna schedule you for surgery. You need it, you need your appendix out. I was like, great. And then, um, she said, you are not gonna be able to breastfeed afterwards. And I was like, okay, what do you mean for how long?

What do you mean? She was like, well, at least a day. Maybe longer because 

[00:48:43] Emma Pickett: Why is that? 

[00:48:43] Aisha Graham: Because I'm having a general anesthetic. 

[00:48:45] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:48:46] Aisha Graham: Right. 

[00:48:47] Emma Pickett: Hands up. Hands up. I know. Okay. This is a surgeon saying this, this the surgeon, the year 2024. This is a surgeon. Um, nearly 2025. Okay. People have c-sections. I know you, you can guess the end of this sentence.

And they breastfeed immediately afterwards. People have surgery all the time in the uk. Mm-hmm. And when they're conscious, the anesthetic has pretty much left their system. It doesn't hang around and people breastfeed immediately after surgery. So why in earth is she still saying this? Mm. In 2025. 

[00:49:17] Aisha Graham: So I, my face was, must have dropped, as did my WI wife's.

We were already exhausted and I was obviously in excruciating pain and still fairly recently postpartum. So I started crying. My wife started crying. We were like, what is go? I was like, well, I can't, I said, I'm not having the surgery, uh, that, you know, I need to breastfeed. I don't understand, you know, and she, and basically her, and then the, the registrar or a different surgeon or doctor that was with her, just both looked incredibly confused as if my reaction was, was.

Really not in the realms of what they would've expected anybody to react, um, appreciate. These are not pediatric people. These are not people from, from the, um, obstetric unit or anything. But, but still, they, they, so they probably haven't encountered a brand new mom like this before in this kind of capacity, but yes, they, they just looked completely confused as to why that would be upsetting.

And I think one of them might have even said, well, it's okay. We can, we can get you some bottles. And I was just, yeah. Beside myself anyway, I, I was like, you'll have to come back. We we're gonna have to have a discussion about this. They, and they went away. And I immediately started furiously googling like, there's got to be, hopefully this isn't true, this isn't true.

And obviously, and it takes 

[00:50:43] Emma Pickett: 30 seconds of Googling to Yeah. And which they can flip in. Well do as well, I hope. Yes. When they're, when they're being asked to. Um, I know it's, it's so easy to health professional bash, but come on guys, there are some flipping basic moments where that's not okay. So they came back and, 

[00:51:01] Aisha Graham: and I said, um, and I'd also text my GP friend as well, who I should say has been a massive, um, kind of inspiration to me because she had her first in 2018 and she breastfed right up until she had her second four years later.

And so she's, she's amazing. Um, so just shout out to Rashe. Um, my oldest friend, oh, brilliant. Uh, I text her as well at the time and said, consultants just told me this, but yes, breastfeeding network website came up almost immediately and said it's absolutely fine. You're not passing, you know, and even if you are passing a bit of the anesthetic on, it's a tiny amount and it's not gonna affect anything, blah, blah, blah.

So they came back and by that point I'd really, um, kind of settled myself and was actually feeling quite empowered. And, and so I was like, uh, by the way, it's fine. Says breastfeeding network says my GP friend, you know, says do go do your own research, but it's fine. And she just went, oh, okay. Yeah, no worries.

And that was it. 

[00:51:58] Emma Pickett: Okay. So it's that classic. Oh yeah. Why don't we just wait a day 'cause, you know, we can't be bothered to Google. And a day Sounds about right. 24 hours. Yeah. Few. Okay. So that at least you're going into this surgery. Now you got, obviously you don't quite know how long it's gonna take.

Luckily you haven't burst yet, but a burst appendix is pretty damn serious. So good thing that hadn't happened. Let's talk a little bit about coursing, 'cause we're approaching a moment where you're not gonna be able to be with your baby now. Um, you and I had a little chat and you told me that you and your wife had talked about coursing while you were pregnant.

Tell me about some of your decisions around that. 

[00:52:34] Aisha Graham: Yes, so I think, as I've mentioned, my wife was still lactating and breastfeeding when I was pregnant and then afterwards and still is now. And so in advance, you know, we both had talked about breastfeeding a lot. We knew that I wanted to do it, and we decided that until my breastfeeding was fully established and my milk supply was fully established, that my wife wasn't going feed our daughter.

And we hadn't really put a timeframe on that. That's kind of just how we described it. Just like that. Yeah. Until, until it's established, I won't feed. And then, yeah, this whole appendicitis, uh, appendectomy thing happened and she was 11, 12 days old. My wife then when I was, we'd been told I needed to have the surgery and, and, you know, we'd, we'd all calm down from the whole not breastfeeding thing.

Uh, she said, what do you want me to do? Do you, while you are gone and straight after, while you're coming round? Because it was only, it's, it's not a very long operation. It's, you know, an hour or two and then maybe an hour or so to come round. Do you want me to feed her if she, if she needs it? And I said, yes, absolutely.

Please, if she'll take it, that would be amazing. I should also say that I'd, um, requested a pump while we were waiting for my surgery. And in an ideal world, I'd, I'd also said if you could send somebody from the, from the, um, kind of midwife unit, that would be great too. And they did eventually it took hours and then I didn't get anything out in the pump anyway, so, well, I maybe got 20 mils or something.

So I was feeling a little bit worried. I was like, well, she's feeding on demand and at this point on demand was pretty much constantly. So, uh, I knew that in that 2, 3, 4 hour period she would probably want to feed. So I said yes to my wife doing it and, and I came back from surgery and I don't remember exactly, but my wife had fed her and it had gone fine.

And then she did feed her. She continued to feed her while I was kind of recovering and sleeping and resting. And she was just, they, they've got her a Z bed, so it was folded out. She was lay on that, she was side lay feeding her. And it's just such a beautiful image I have in my mind, being in this ward half dead post-surgery postpartum with just.

Wounds and scars all over my stomach. Yeah, 

[00:54:54] Emma Pickett: your plop, your poor abdomen was in a rough state. Your body's like, what the hell's going on here? Yeah. 

[00:55:00] Aisha Graham: Yeah. 

[00:55:01] Emma Pickett: But you've got that lovely image in your mind. 

[00:55:02] Aisha Graham: Yeah. The, the window was behind her and she was just, she was just, yeah. Feeding our 12 day old daughter that I'd just given birth to.

And it was, it was lovely. And yeah, she slept for ages. Well, you know, a few hours felt like ages, but in terms of what I'd had the, the days prior, and I just rested and it was, it was amazing. And we kind of came out of hospital when I was eventually discharged, being like, this is great. And I was like, do you know what?

I feel like this is okay. I feel like you could feed her, maybe you could do a night feed the way couples do. You could do, do a, I think I knew that, that that key times between one and. Three in the morning that you wanna make sure you feed. 

[00:55:47] Emma Pickett: Yeah. There's some different opinion, different opinions around that.

There's a theory that prolactin levels may be from midnight to 5:00 AM maybe, but no one's really pinning down that time, but, but we know night feeds do have a value because of the prolactin. So what you're thinking of avoiding that time for her to do the feed? 

[00:56:03] Aisha Graham: Yeah, so we were like, maybe I could do a feed, go to bed, sort of like early evening.

And then if she woke up again soon after, like give me a good chunk of maybe four hours that my wife could feed her. And we did that for a little while, for a few weeks, and then eventually my daughter got bigger and stronger and more opinionated and she, she just wouldn't latch on my wife anymore. She just was like, no.

And we presumed it's was because her, maybe her letdown wasn't as strong, you know? That would make sense, wouldn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, 

[00:56:37] Emma Pickett: if she's feeding your son and, and I mean, how many times a day was he feeding at that point? Do you remember? Only in 

[00:56:41] Aisha Graham: the evenings. 

[00:56:42] Emma Pickett: Okay. So it would make sense that her volume might be a bit less.

So her letdown may be a bit slower and it may also be that her milk tasted a little bit different. So when we drop below a threshold of maybe 200 or 300 mls, there's a theory that we turn into what we call weaning milk, which is higher in sodium, lower in lactose, a bit more similar to colostrum. So it maybe it didn't taste as sweet as your milk as well as the volume being different.

So your daughter basically was a restaurant critic? 

[00:57:09] Aisha Graham: Yeah. And even still now, very occasionally when I'm really touched out, which happens fairly often, I must say. I'm like, oh, just can you try and feed her or something? 'cause she's just driving me insane. And um, obviously she's nine months old now and Yeah.

You know, she'll sometimes latch on a bit. She did last night. And just look at my wife. Kind bewilderment. And then sometimes she'll even laugh. She'll, she'll look at the, look at the boom and, and just laugh and be like, God, she's, she's, yeah, I know. She's already taken the mick outta us so much. So, um, we really thought crossed.

So back to the, I was gonna say, 

[00:57:46] Emma Pickett: I mean, you really had a system that worked well when it sort of broke down. Did it feel okay because it was obviously your daughter's choice or was there some feelings of sort of sadness about saying goodbye to that? How did you feel? Or was it because you hadn't planned on coursing, it wasn't necessarily an emotional loss?

How, how did it feel when it didn't carry on? On, yeah. 

[00:58:06] Aisha Graham: I wouldn't say no, I don't think it was an emotional loss. And I'm, I should say as well that we, she's always taken a bottle of express of my expressed milk. And I don't even remember when we first introduced that. It must have been, I don't know, maybe from three or four weeks or something.

So, so it's not like we don't have that option, you know? Um, so it didn't feel like a huge deal. Now had, had she have been a bottle refuser, perhaps we would've Yeah. Had a tougher time with it, or I would've had a tougher time of knowing that I was responsible for all of them. But I think breastfeeding was going so well.

She was gaining weight so beautifully, you know, she was so, she was thriving so much. I just think we kind of had a bit of a laugh about it, that she had made the choice, uh, and, and said, no, I don't want these boobs, I'm afraid. And I, I always remember this is, this will show my age. There was a, a, a, a comedy kid show called Dinosaurs in the nineties, and there was a little dinosaur baby in that, that, that would whack the dad over the head with a wooden spoon and say, not the mama.

Um, and that's, that's a joke we have in our household, but even with our son. Because I didn't birth him. So, you know, when he was little it was like, not the mama and then, and then the other way round. Then with my wife, she's not the mama, so we like to take the mick in our household with things like that.

So, yeah. 

[00:59:27] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that's, that's a good approach. And, and how is your recovery from surgeries? No complications, everyth, it sounds like your breastfeeding continued to go well. 

[00:59:34] Aisha Graham: Yeah, everything was fine after that. And you know, I've had, I've had issues on and off, small things, you know, very recently. So she, she's got six teeth and she's got them quite early and, and my son didn't get teeth till he was 13 months old, so my wife didn't get a bite, you know, until he was over one.

And I've been getting bitten since about four months. Uh, so yeah, that's been, that's been tricky to navigate. And I've had injuries and, and I've had to, you know, really go back to basics a few times with, with latching, you know? Yeah. She, she enjoys a shallow latch sometimes. But yeah. You know, I plan to continue as long as, as long as we can.

I think I can't, Ima I can't get my head around that. The majority of people that do breastfeed that they would've already stopped by now. She is still so small and so dependent on my milk. It's, it's crazy to me. And she's a really good eater as well. 

[01:00:33] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Breastfeeding not a barrier to being a good eater.

That's, that's really important to highlight. Mm-hmm. I think that's, that's a myth that we often have. So you're just gonna play it by ear. You've obviously got some lovely natural term breastfeeding already in your family and you, you don't have any particular goals. How have you got on with going, getting back to work?

Are you back to work at all? What's happening with your work and, 

[01:00:53] Aisha Graham: no, I'm still on leave. Um, but we are going to do my wife and I a month of shared parental leave. So, uh, yeah, in, in about a month I'm gonna go back to work for a month and she's going to take, um, a month off. So, um, e will be 11 months old.

And so, yeah, we'll, we'll see how that goes. I think I'm gonna pump, uh, uh, you know, for one bottle a day and, you know, maybe co nursing will come back with me not being around all day. 

[01:01:22] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[01:01:22] Aisha Graham: Uh, and then I'm, I'm gonna be off again then for a couple of months, and then I go back properly, um, after that point.

Yeah. So, yeah, we'll see. I mean, I don't know. I feel like I'm already getting signs that she's less interested in. She's having less feeds, but I'm really, really hoping that she stays a boob monster for as long as possible. Like, because my son is, you know, and it would make me a little bit sad if she gives up.

I'd like to get to at least three, you know. 

[01:01:51] Emma Pickett: Yeah, it must be really special for her to see him still feeding, I guess maybe if it's bedtime he doesn't, she doesn't always see him feeding or is that something she is part of as well? 

[01:02:00] Aisha Graham: She does see it sometimes because sometimes if he's partic he's just started school, so he is been quite dysregulated in the afternoons and early evenings.

So he's been having a little bit more of a feed on the couch downstairs and yeah, so she sees that one and sometimes she climbs up on my wife and she's, you know, that's when my wife will try and latch her on the other one, um, to do a bit of, a bit of tandem. Um, and that's when she normally laughs at her.

[01:02:25] Emma Pickett: And has your son ever asked to feed from you, if you don't mind me asking? Uh, 

[01:02:28] Aisha Graham: yes and he has a couple of times, not recently, but yeah, when she, probably a few months ago he did. And, and we would say, does it taste the same? And um, does it feel the same? Is it more milk? You know, and he'll just say, tastes the same, um, and he goes, yum.

And then, but only has a little bit. And I imagine it. It's, yeah, it's, it, it feels weird for me, I must say. It's quite weird. Yeah. I mean, 

[01:02:54] Emma Pickett: different mouth shape, different palette shape. Yeah. It's definitely a different setup, isn't it? I imagine that feels a bit different. Yeah. But not painful. 

[01:03:01] Aisha Graham: No, not painful.

And a couple of times I've said to Lauren, I'm like, you know, especially now my baby's um, older, I'm like, should, should I try and do some bedtimes? 'cause he is always fed to sleep for bedtime, so she's never really gotten a break with, with bedtime. Uh, and you know, we've offered a couple of times, I sh should, um, should mutty, I'm mutty I should say, my mom's mum.

Um, and I'm mutty, should Mutty do bedtime for you? And he's like, no, I want, I want more money. So, um, maybe she'll she'll, you know, do something in the coming, in the coming weeks. She'll go out for the evening and I'll give it a go. But it's a bit trickier when there's two of them to have, but there you go.

Yeah. 

[01:03:40] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Well, I'm so grateful for you sharing your story today actually. You've, you've been really generous with, with everything. Uh, just. To ask you a little bit about your kind of community work and, and, 'cause obviously I heard you speak at the day on at Bristol. Do you, do you know couples that conos and do inject induce lactation?

And what's the kind of support network like in Bristol? Are there, do you find that people can get information from health professionals? Is there a good sort source of information? What's sort of out there when it comes to kind of lactation support? 

[01:04:11] Aisha Graham: So unfortunately, I don't know anyone who has induced lactation that, that I know personally.

I do follow some people on various social medias that, that have done it. Um, and I know a little bit about it from when I've done, you know, my own research for breastfeeding and, and what have you in terms of specific resources. So the only one I can think of that's related to kind of the queer community is that I'm part of, um, a Bristol Queer Parenting group, and it's more of a social group.

So we meet up, um, there's kind of a, there's an offshoot baby group for people that are on leave. Then there's, you know, just everyone else who's got kids of varying ages. And we meet up and as you can imagine, there's a whole variety of people. There's solo parents, adoptive parents, surrogates, yeah. Same sex families, both male and female trans families, uh, co-parenting arrangements, you know, the, the whole gamut.

And that's great, not only for us to kind of be around our people, but also for our children to, to see families that look like theirs and also families that look different to theirs. And, you know, I, I guess I'm telling you this in that if I had needed specific support, relation to kind of our sexual identity or our family setup, then I, I would've definitely lent on these people.

But I think I should just recognize as a, as a cis woman who's, you know, able bodied middle class, I've been able to access the same support and resources, I guess that, that all of my. Um, heterosexual peers would've, would've had. So, you know, lactation consultants and you know, yourself and, and the likes of Lucy Weber, who's, you know, these people are so important on social media and, and everything that you post is, is all really helpful.

Uh, and yeah, I kind of have, have just used, I guess the more mainstream conventional roots, but I would love, and I do think it's needed to have people that are kind of more, well, inclusivity, but I guess people that represent those different groups, uh, in the breastfeeding and chest feeding arena. Yeah.

And obviously what you are doing with, with the Spectrum image library is so important. And again, that addresses some of the issues we've already talked about with large breasts, but also, you know, different, uh, skin colors and different ethnicities. All of that is so needed. Um, and. Yeah, I, I dunno, maybe, maybe I should start a queer breastfeeding support group.

[01:06:40] Emma Pickett: It does sound like that might be in your future. Yeah, sure. I have to say, um, you know, you touched on maybe possibly wanting to do some training in the future, and I think you're, you are such a great communicator. I mean, not only have we got two trademark phrases from today's conversation, but you're just great at, at, at talking plainly and honestly, and exploring things and communicating.

And that's what, that's what 99% of, of breastfeeding support and lactation support's all about. So, mm-hmm. I'm, I'm going to pester you. Um, to see where you are in a year's time. Okay. And you're allowed to not have set something up. Yes. But I think, I think you do, you do a brilliant job in doing that and, and, and sharing your story.

Um, I'm aware that, you know, the, the lactation community, lactation support community, like any aspect of health, we do get it wrong when it comes to supporting families that look different from our own families. And, and, you know, we are in a sticky place in the uk particularly when it comes to supporting trans parents.

Mm-hmm. Um, you know, times are not always positive, and I don't want to focus on the negatives or pull you into that space. But if, if someone's listening to this and they are maybe a breastfeeding supporter themselves, maybe they're heterosexual, maybe they're cis and they're thinking, how can I make my practice feel more welcoming?

How can I make more of an effort to send a message to people that I am for everybody? What are some of the things that you might look out for if you were, you know, visiting somebody's website or listening to someone's posts? 

[01:08:03] Aisha Graham: Well, I think ultimately. I said this at the conference where, where we came across each other is it's, it's not to make presumptions.

And I think that's just a broad one, right? I don't think it just applies in the, in this, um, scenario. I think across the board don't make presumptions and even if you are gonna make presumptions, because we all have internal biases and things go through our mind and that's okay. You know, you don't have to voice them out loud.

I haven't faced an awful lot of homophobia, I must say, but a lot of the time it's kind of like little micro comments that are aren't great. So, you know, a lot of people presume that I have a male partner or presume that, um, you know, we've used IVF and, and things like that. And, and that's, that's not always the case with everybody.

Um, you know, I have trans friends, uh, that, you know, it's just been presumed that they don't want to breastfeed. Uh, or, or chest feed. And, and that's the wrong assumption to make. 'cause that's not the case. Or equally that they don't want to have a vaginal birth. So I think that's really important. And, you know, the obvious one as well is, is language.

So along with those presu, presumptions comes, don't, don't presume anyone's pronouns, don't presume anyone's partners. And don't use the wrong terminology there. Don't say, you know, dad or husband or, you know, even, even with breastfeeding. I think a lot, a lot of my queer and trans friends don't have an issue with the term breastfeeding, but it's a very individual thing.

Like, like me using the term fat, that's fine for me. Um, but, but you know, you just need to check in everyone. You can only speak to someone on an individual basis and you just need to ask. That's all it is. Obviously I'm not afraid of asking anyone anything, and I hope no one's afraid of asking me anything.

And you, you don't have to dread tread so carefully that, that, you know, you are terrified of saying the wrong thing because saying the wrong thing happens to all of us, including those in minority groups. And you've just got to try and, you know, go into it with an open mind and with an open heart and people will read that from you.

And also there are queer people that are assholes. Uh, and so, you know, you might get somebody that is in that minority that isn't a very nice person, and that doesn't mean they represent all of us. Um, it just means we've got the broad spectrum of humans, um, across all of the groups. So I think that's good to keep in mind as well, because this might be the only gay, queer, trans person you've ever come across, and they might not be lovely, and that's okay.

That doesn't mean all of us are that way. We're all very different. Keep that in mind as well. 

[01:10:53] Emma Pickett: Thank you for that. Yeah. Yes. That's, that's a good point to make. Yes. And I, and I love what you had touched on before about how we make mistakes. And, you know, I've heard people say this in different talks, but if you make a mistake with someone's pronouns, if you make a mistake with, with who somebody is, you apologize.

You don't send to yourself, you don't gush an apology for 20 minutes. Um, you move on and you focus on who you're supporting. This isn't about you. This is about who you're looking after. So when your wife was staying with you in, in the ward, you didn't have people going, oh, who's this? Um, they that it was on your notes.

This was your wife. You didn't have that extra burden of constantly having to talk to new health professionals every time someone came in the space. 

[01:11:34] Aisha Graham: No, we, no, we didn't face any of that, but we did have, you know, when I was alone or, and you say about the notes, I mean, no one's ever really looking at the notes.

Well, certainly not in my experience, but, you know, every, everyone was fine. Nobody was, you know, wondering. We did get a few of, oh, is this your sister? Um, which we get a lot, which is hilarious to us 'cause we don't look anything like each other. But there you go. Um, that's an easier leap to make for some people, I guess.

It doesn't really bother us. But yes, when I was alone, you know, I did get a bit of, um, where's your husband or your dad or the dad or whatever. And I have had a bit of who's the dad? And then we have to, I mean, this happens even within our own family and we have to, you know, say, oh, well, you know, it's a sperm donor, et cetera.

But yeah, I'm, I'm quite, I'm quite hardened. It, it doesn't really. Bother me that much, but I could see how that would be much more sensitive to others. 

[01:12:27] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, if someone's got gender dysphoria, it's a different Exactly. It's a different story, isn't it? That's not, yes. Quite, quite the same, although I don't wanna speak on anyone's behalf.

[01:12:35] Aisha Graham: No. And the power dynamic, I think is the thing to remember. I think, you know, I've come across incredibly lovely, warm, um, kind-hearted and, you know, great bedside manner, uh, nurses, midwives, doctors, et cetera. But I think, you know, you, you, I think ultimately you have to remember that you, you have the power in that relationship.

It doesn't matter how lovely and inclusive and, um, welcoming and good at listening that you are, that power dynamic still exists. And so I just think, just to be cognizant of that is really important. And even for someone like me who is a loud mouth and who will advocate for yourself. It's still very much a thing.

And you know, I guess midwives feel this when they're pregnant, right? And the shoe is on the other foot. They still, even though they know all the theory, somebody says something and it still hits really hard. And I had that with the surgeon, I had that with the nurse. It was just one comment and it threw me for six.

And thankfully I was able to get around that. But, but yeah, I think just being aware of, of that dynamic as well is so important. And I think it's especially pronounced when you are someone from a vulnerable, underrepresented, or, you know, a different background than, than the mainstream. 

[01:13:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you very much for that.

Is there anything we haven't touched on that you wanted to make sure we talked about? 

[01:14:02] Aisha Graham: I mean, it's not, it's not that important, but I, I could mention about how I personally don't like it when people sort of tokenize kind of my scenario. 

[01:14:13] Emma Pickett: Yeah. If you think that, 

[01:14:13] Aisha Graham: yeah. Tell me 

[01:14:14] Emma Pickett: a bit more about what you mean by that.

[01:14:15] Aisha Graham: So. I personally don't enjoy it when, and this isn't just healthcare professionals. This could be anybody in the street or a friend or a family, whatever, an acquaintance, um, when I've said, oh, uh, you know, I've just had a baby, or I'm pregnant, or I'm breastfeeding, and then they kind of like tokenize my scenario by saying, oh, my cousin's neighbor had IVF or is a lesbian, or, you know, whatever it might be that, that kind of, they're try, you are trying to relate to me, which is lovely.

But you would never say that to somebody that was heterosexual. You wouldn't, and maybe you would if they'd had IVFI guess. But it just, it just always makes me feel a bit icky, um, because. I don't, I never know how to respond to that. 

[01:15:06] Emma Pickett: Yeah. What do you say next is that people joke about, oh, I'll look out for them in the newsletter or something.

That's the kind of joke you hear people say. 

[01:15:13] Aisha Graham: Yeah. And it, it, it doesn't, it doesn't offend me or upset me. It always just makes things a bit awkward, I think. Um, so again, it might come up in your mind. Maybe you've just met somebody that's, you know, you think, again, this is also to do with Presum presuming, right?

Because you presume that this person you've just met who's in a same sex relationship has had I vf and actually for me that was true, but for my wife, that wasn't true. Uh, so, you know, again, it's kind of just this part of presuming everything. Uh, and actually no, you don't know me and that's okay. And you, we don't have to find common ground right now.

We can still kind of respect and talk openly with each other, but yes, I don't need you to have met a gay person before, basically. 

[01:15:58] Emma Pickett: No. You've explained that very clearly. Thank you very much. Yeah. I'm really grateful for your time today, Aisha. Thank you. And I'd love to hear how things carry on, not only because I'm gonna be pestering you about your, uh, support group that you set up, but also, um, I'd love to hear how your breastfeeding journey goes as well.

Um, good luck with everything. Good luck with your month back at work. 

[01:16:16] Aisha Graham: Thank you and thank you so much for all that you do, and I love your podcast. And we, um, you very kindly signed, uh, Jesse's Milky book for us when we were at the conference, and we've been reading that to our son and it's been, it's been great.

And you know, thank God for, for the likes of you and, and others. Oh, bless you. Yes. Thank you. Yeah, 

[01:16:35] Emma Pickett: that's really lovely. Thank you so much.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes Milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.