Weaning Q&A with Carly from Seed Pod, Part 2

This week, we have two back-to-back episodes answering your questions about weaning. To do so, I’m joined by the brilliant Carly Facius, Midwife, IBCLC, Women's Circle Facilitator and Aware Parenting Mentor. 

We delve into question topics ranging from weaning a toddler while tandem feeding, addressing night-time feeds, and managing breastfeeding with neurodiverse children. 

To find a list of questions, please consult the transcript of this episode.

You can find out more about Carly at www.seedpodfamilies.com or follow her on Instagram @‌seed_pod_

Carly has created a free Guide called “10 Things to Consider When Ending Breastfeeding” for anyone making changes to their feeding rhythm.It offers ideas around setting boundaries, big feelings, play, family dynamics, practicalities and more.

You can access it here: https://tinyurl.com/Get-your-Guide-here

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

Resources mentioned - 

Breastfeeding Aversion and Agitation https://www.breastfeedingaversion.com/home-baa-aversion-and-agitation

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated. Questions are highlighted.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end.

And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too. Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Welcome to part two. Carly and I are gonna continue talking about your questions on ending breastfeeding, bringing breastfeeding to a close. If you haven't listened to part one, go back to part one. Lots of talk about night weaning and tandem feeding and big feelings, and we're gonna carry on answering your questions now.

So this question says, how can partners and family provide support during the weaning process? I'm gonna let you answer that one first. 

[00:01:16] Carly: I love this question. It's something I talk about a lot in my workshop, and I think firstly, seeing the family as a system is what's most important. That it's not just the mother and the child, the breastfed child or children that's ending this breastfeeding relationship.

It's the entire family. So whether it's a father or a partner or. The other children that are involved, like everyone's gonna be impacted by this. So I think just really looking at it like a family's a single nervous system. We are all moving and res responding from to each other. So really looking at it like.

Partners, uh, have a very important role to play as other support people and really preparing them, like preparing them. And maybe that might be, maybe you don't know how to prepare them 'cause you don't know what's to come. But having a bit of an idea of like, what's the, what's the plan? Is there a plan?

What kind of feelings are gonna come up for you? Are they willing to listen to the feelings from you? Or the child, what practical support's there? Are they going to step in for bedtime or are they going to be more active during the night? If you're reducing night feeds, are they going to be getting up for drinks of water or things like that?

So really calling in the support, and I think that's something that is just going to be so supportive of this process because it's not just you and your child. Yeah. 

[00:02:46] Emma Pickett: It's 

[00:02:46] Carly: the people around you and being held by them. 

[00:02:50] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. As I think you probably agree, no, no one else can wean apart from you. If you are the breastfeeding parent, lactating parent, you're the only one that can wean.

But that does not mean that other people cannot support you. During the planning process, the brainstorming process, looking at calendars, when's the time to start night weaning, you know, what's happening with work? If I've night weaned, I'm gonna be exhausted at 6:00 AM I'd love to get an extra hour in bed.

Can you do the morning shift consistently for a week, um, during that night weaning process? You know, as you say, it may be that the partner can help in the middle of the night, and that might be that both of you are there alongside a child. It might be that you need to say, I'm, I just need five minutes. I can feel I'm wavering, I can feel I'm struggling to hold this boundary.

I'm gonna go to the toilet. In inverted commas, we're not expecting the partner to magically calm the child, the partner's, just keeping that child safe until you come back. Sometimes I've come across partners who struggle more than the breastfeeding parent. Hmm. They've been so used to their child, never having big emotions, never being distressed, always just plunking on the breast in the best way that actually seeing their child distressed is really upsetting and triggering for the partner on a deep, deep level, bringing up lots of stuff from their own childhood, bringing up some really, really deep stuff.

And I have sometimes come across situations where the partner's saying, please just feed them. I can't cope with this anymore. So it's, it may be that the big feelings are not the breastfeeding parent, but the, but the partner. So, you know, we need to talk about how a child who's distressed is not necessarily a child coming to harm.

You know, if they're in the arms of a loving adult, if their feelings are being validated, that's very different from a child being left alone with that flood of cortisol in the brain. Um, so we need to talk about everyone's reactions and everyone's understanding about what the purpose of this is. Why does it need to happen?

You know, what's going on? Um, and support to help you brainstorm through the process, you know, readjust. How did yet last night go? Let's think about it. And also partners and family can talk to little people too and do the symbolic play and how, you know, how did you feel last night? And it was, I can see you were feeling a bit sad when, when milk was sleeping and it's okay to feel sad and we can read the books too.

Um, so yeah, absolutely. Yeah, other adults can do a lot. 

[00:05:02] Carly: I think also managing expectations. 'cause I often find that partners might have unrealistic expectations that if breastfeeding reduces at night, their child's all of a sudden gonna magically sleep through all night. And so that can be quite difficult for partners and other family members to manage, particularly if they've been finding the frequent night feeding difficult.

They might be like, well, your baby's, you know, the child's still waking up all night and this is meant to like fix it in inverted colors. So I think being really clear around like, yeah, I might stop breastfeeding at night and our child's still gonna wake up multiple times per night, or I'm gonna stop breastfeeding and they're still gonna want me for everything.

So just really being really clear around like, what are we, what are we looking at? Look, looking at what are, what things are likely to happen. So yeah, that can be really helpful, those conversations around managing expectations. 

[00:05:57] Emma Pickett: Yeah, actually what you said something there that really reminded me that I think sometimes a non breastfeeding parent thinks if you don't breastfeed, I'm gonna find it easier to do bedtimes.

I'll be more accepted at nighttime. Our child won't reject me anymore. And as you say, you can end breastfeeding and absolutely still be the favored parent. Absolutely. Be the one they want to see in the middle of the night. They can still scream, get outta the room daddy or Mama, I want mommy who breastfeeds.

And that can be horrifying to the pa to the partner who thought this was gonna be a resolution. So yeah, I think that's, that's really important to think about. Um, what, what are you hoping to get out of this and what do you expect life to be like? Okay. The next question I'm gonna predict is the shortest answer we're gonna give.

Okay. So let's see if I'm right. So the next question says, my 1-year-old is starting nursery two days a week. Should I breastfeed her on demand on the other days? She normally has two to three feeds during the day. Yes. Yes. See, that's the, that's all we have to say. Um, do you wanna say a bit more? But that really could be all we would say.

Uh, what would you add to that? 

[00:07:02] Carly: I would say that uh, your daughter starting nursery is wonderful and congratulations, and that breastfeeding her on demand on the other days is perfectly natural. And if that feels good to you, please continue breastfeeding her. It's not going to matter her being away from you for those days and then returning.

She might actually want to, you might find she might start reverse cycling and wanna breastfeed more at, you know, when she gets home from nursery after having that separation from you. And it's gonna be a really helpful and beautiful tool to stay connected and support her. During those times of separation.

So yes, yes, yes. 

[00:07:43] Emma Pickett: Yep. Yes, yes, yes. It, the idea that if you didn't breastfeed it would somehow make nursery easier is not the case. Won't make any difference at all. And actually you trying to not breastfeed when you with her is just gonna be harder. So why would we not give her something that supports her immune system?

She's gonna be getting some time in nursery. Why would not, would we not do something that keeps your milk supply going, that protects your health? Um, absolutely carry on breastfeeding. And by the way, any qualified nursery practitioner and experienced childcare person would say, yeah, absolutely. Any nursery that might apply to imply otherwise is bananas and there, I don't think any nursery would imply otherwise.

Okay. Next question says, I work nights one week on two weeks off, and I'll be going back to work when the baby is 1-year-old. Will they be okay with dad overnight without breastfeeding? I don't want to stop breastfeeding because of this, but I'm worried it may be confusing for the baby to breastfeed some nights, but not others and me not being there to comfort.

[00:08:44] Carly: Hmm. Yeah. 

[00:08:46] Emma Pickett: What would you say to that? 

[00:08:47] Carly: Um, similar to the response about nursery, that it's absolutely fine to keep breastfeeding on those nights that you're there and that. It's probably gonna be trickier for you being away from your breastfed baby than than the child. And what a wonderful opportunity for your partner to have at night to build that relationship and deepen that bond by being that the primary caregiver for that week of night shifts.

Yeah. And again, it's just gonna be supportive of the connection that you have, and you might find that it, it does feel different when you're there. When you return after being away, like when you come back in the morning, you might have a very, a child who's very excited to breastfeed. So it's going to be, yeah, a great thing for you to continue if you want to.

So I don't feel like it's confusing for the child. And again, like we've shared the whole way through, giving information, giving your child information, letting them know what's happening, letting them know what to expect. 

[00:09:52] Emma Pickett: Yeah, so babies one, that might be tricky in terms of explaining things, but, but I totally agree with you that, um, it's not confusing for the baby.

The idea that if you didn't breastfeed when you were with her, it makes life easier for everybody. I would question, we're not gonna take that tool out, your tool toolbox unless you want to take it out. Your child knows that when they're with your partner, the cook comforting techniques will be different.

The soothing techniques will be different. Bedtimes are different. Life is different. Then they're with, when they're with you, you're breastfeeding. And if you weren't breastfeeding when they were with you, it'd still be different because you're two different adults who would comfort in different ways and soothe in different ways.

So removing the breastfeeding doesn't make you both identical human beings who comfort and soothe in the same way. So there's really no reason to take the breastfeeding out of the equation if, if you don't want to. As you say, absolutely a tool that will help and you will probably also will benefit from that oxytocin from feeding at night because your circadian rhythms are gonna be a bit messed up with the night shifts and when you have the weeks off, if you breastfeed, the oxytocin will enter your bloodstream too.

I suspect it will help you more quickly get back to sleep at night and, and readjust to, to sleeping at night again. So I think only, only positives about continuing no reason to, to not breastfeed. The only thing to think about is, is expressing at work. You might need to, especially the first week, first few days of being back in night shifts, you may, you want to probably have plans to express during the night.

Um, that's the only practical consideration, I think. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay, so next question is about aversion. Slight trigger warning. 'cause some of the language here is a bit tough. My baby is 22 months and all of a sudden I've developed breastfeeding aversion. When I feed, it feels like cockroaches are crawling under my skin and I want to get my baby off me.

It makes me squirm and feel sick and tense. Is this my body's way of telling me to stop feeding? Or how can I ease this feeling as it's making feeding really difficult? So let's start with that question. Is this my body's way of telling me to stop feeding? I don't think anyone can answer that question for you.

I think only you can answer that question, but I would say generally. I don't think we should think that aversion is a message to that we should be weaning because lots of people experience aversion even with quite young babies, and they are absolutely devastated and miserable about it. And the last thing they want is to when breastfeeding.

So I don't think aversion is strongly and associated with the need to wean. But having said that, there must be some people who don't want to be breastfeeding who also get aversion and, and potentially there is something that's triggering for them and their, their body's saying they're ready to bring things to a close.

It's interesting that she doesn't then end with, how can I wean? She says, how can I ease this feeling? So that is another clue for me that she's not actually ready to end breastfeeding. There are some great resources out there, um, around breastfeeding aversion and agitation. We'll put some of them in the show notes.

There's Facebook group. Um, Zainab has written a book. About breastfeeding aversion. Some people find that supplements can help. Um, some people find that breathing exercises can help some people find that when they're dehydrated, they're much more likely to suffer with aversion. So check your hydration levels and also have a think about your cycle.

Is your cycle returning? Could something else be going on? Could you be pregnant or are you noticing a version's worth worse on different days in the month and you, and you've got some sort of cycle association. It's, it's not that there's nothing you can do, there are some things that you can do and there is a breastfeeding aversion community that, that we can signpost you to.

So have a look in the show notes. Okay. Should I go on to the next question? Planning to start weaning when my daughter turns one, she's currently 10 months old. I'm looking for the best general advice on how to do this. Currently she feeds morning, mid-morning, mid-afternoon, and bedtime. She also currently feeds on average once in the night.

But more is a comfort to stop her crying. And I'm a bit worried about how I'm supposed to wean that one off when it seems to be the only thing that gets her back to sleep. 

[00:14:03] Carly: Mm-hmm. So I think looking at, again, the feeds that are gonna be the easiest to let go of initially. So that would be the daytime feeds and potentially the morning feed.

Then thinking about a timeframe. So it sounds like there's, there is a plan in place if the baby's 10 months and she's wanting to begin weaning at one, 

[00:14:27] Emma Pickett: sounds like. So she says planning to start weaning when my daughter turns one. Yeah. So that's two months off. Okay. 

[00:14:34] Carly: Yeah. So my suggestion would be to be going slow and going feed by feed.

And it sounds like there's already a bit of clarity around. Potentially keeping the night feed the longest, um, because there's some apprehension around how her daughter's gonna go back to sleep at night. And earlier we mentioned about giving information then that might be a bit young for a 1-year-old, but in my experience, it's still helpful.

I talked to all the babies and I've found that. It can be quite helpful even if they're not taking everything in, but it's can be very helpful for the parent to continually like be saying what's happening, putting the plan in place, being repetitive, having clarity around it. So I think that can be just like a very good thing to do for all of us.

And partners and support people as well. So everyone's on the same page, everyone knows what's going on. So yeah, I would definitely be looking at which feed to begin with and then moving gradually. I mean, everyone does it at different paces. Often. For a smaller baby it might take a bit longer. It might be better to drop one every few weeks.

It's really depend dependent on what the timeline is and what the motivation for weaning is. 

[00:15:56] Emma Pickett: So currently she feeds morning, mid-morning, mid-afternoon bedtime. So I suspect the mid-morning and the mid-afternoon will be the easier ones to get rid of. Mm-hmm. And at this age, we're really still very much focusing on milk as a source of nutrition.

Lots of our answers so far have focused on the emotional side of, of breastfeeding, but with this child, we're going to need milk to be happening. And ideally, NHS recommendations, I dunno if it's the same in Australia, are that we wouldn't be moving to bottles for this, this child. We would probably be looking for a cup or a sippy cup, um, just for dental health reasons.

So you're gonna be, you could be moving to full fat cows milk at 12 months. Um, and we're looking for a mid-morning milk offer and a mid-afternoon milk offer. Along snacks, alongside snacks, and solid food. Um, and we're gonna need at least 400 mils roughly of milk. But you can have a look online and, and see what your recommendations are for, for wherever you are.

Um, so replacing a breastfeed with a milk feed, but even at 10 months breastfeeding's, not just about milk, it's about connection. It's about cuddles. Um, so we're looking to make sure we add in all that, all those lovely cuddles and oxytocin opportunities as well. And then the night feed, if this was a client and I was talking to this person, one to one, I would say you've picked one.

And you've picked one, not because you're saying you hate breastfeeding, not because you're saying you're miserable, not because you're saying you loathe it. It's just like you've picked a, a number and I guess I'd ask you why not? Because I get points if you don't wean. I don't get, you know, I don't get vouchers from breastfeeding international or anything.

Uh, but I would just say, let's just double, double checked. You've not picked, you've not plucked a number outta the thin air. And because you think people should stop breastfeeding at at 12 months. If it's working for you and it's working for you to be able to put your child back to night, to sleep at night, do you necessarily want to stop bang on 12 months?

I mean, we're entering into the winter now. We've got increased risk of respiratory illnesses and viruses and gastroenteritis type infections. Do you necessarily want to lose that, that tool during that period of time? Because it may be that she's only waking once on average and you can breastfeed her quickly back to sleep.

That works. Sounds great, but if there's something missing from this question and you do hate breastfeeding and you know you've gotta start a particular rare kind of medication that's not compatible or whatever the answer is, then how else can you get a back to sleep? It's probably going to be milk at one, so absolutely common to still need milk feeds at one and genuinely be hungry.

So I would be offering a sippy cup of milk in the middle of the night at this age. You know, even under 18 months absolutely valid for children to need milk, for nutritional reasons, overnight, and for some children, even older than that. Um, so I would not necessarily expect her to go all through the night without milk, and she could genuinely be needing it because she's hungry.

So offering some milk, giving her a big cuddle, you know, at this age, bit of rocking, you know, gentle talking, shushing, and, and helping us settle back to sleep again. And then you might then reduce slowly and gradually the amount of milk that's in that cup. Until one day you're picking her up and just rocking her and, and seeing what happens.

But as you say, don't rush. Take your time and, and make sure you're focusing on the nutritional side of things as well. Okay, so next question's also about night weaning. Now, we touched on night weaning in the last episode, but I kept this one separate because the child's a little bit younger, and that change is, I think some of the ways we might communicate with them.

We're not talking about a, a 2-year-old or a three-year-old. So this question says, how do I set boundaries at nighttime? I want to night ween. My 15 month old is a boob, a barnacle, and feeds to sleep and screams without. He wakes about seven times at night and won't fall asleep without feeding. He's such a content and happy boy apart from breastfeeding and sleep.

I'm 21 weeks pregnant, so I'm getting too tired for this. I'm planning to tandem feed and I don't want to wean completely. 

[00:19:53] Carly: Yeah. So again, what looking at feeding to sleep and if that's something that we can look at in a different way. And then the frequent night waking is tricky. I think for a 15 month old there's lots of different schools of thought on when to stop feeding at night, and I'm sure people have heard all different ideas.

Um, I feel like the general recommendation in the lactation world is. Keeping, like not ending night feeds till 18 months. Would you agree with that, Emma? 

[00:20:26] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, I think, I mean, you know, I know you, you'd agree with what I'm gonna say next. Everybody has the right to end breastfeeding whenever they want to.

Of course. So we're definitely ne, we're definitely never gonna say to anyone, you can't end breastfeeding. Yeah. But they may still need milk and, and we shouldn't necessarily expect them to be able to go without milk. Yeah, actually one of the other questions that came through is why is it not recommended to night ween before 18 months?

I want to partially wean a 14 month old and, and this wraps into that question as well. I guess really truthfully, realistically, the 18 month guideline probably has come a little bit outta thin air. I'm not sure we can say for sure that that is evidence-based, but I think as general guidance, most people say night winning under 18 months is gonna be more challenging because of the nutritional side of things and also the comprehension side of things.

They just don't understand why they can't have milk, and that means I think they're more likely to move straight into a meltdown situation and, and stay angrier. And stay dysregulated for longer because you can't do that communication and you can't, you can't talk to them. So the person who's talking about partially night winning a 14 month old will, will lap into this question about night winning a 15 month old.

I think as you say, it's, first of all, we're probably looking at changing that fe to sleep relationship. What would you say about, um, so seven times a night, that's, that's pretty much every sleep cycle, isn't it? 

[00:21:52] Carly: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's a lot. Um, I would be hopeful that changing the feed to sleep could help with those wake up.

I would also be really thinking about the pregnancy and the pregnancy just really impacts on feeding and. I would be wondering about milk supply and why the child is feeding so frequently at night, and if that's always been the case or if it's ramped up since the pregnant, since this woman's become pregnant, and wondering what the nights have looked like in the past.

And again, just thinking about how, what, yeah, what ways to connect. Yeah. In the daytime, are there opportunities for play and connection? Are there opportunities to have breastfeeds at times where it feels more enjoyable and you are able to be present and enjoyable and enjoy the feed? Because I think it's so tricky at night when you are pregnant and tired and you're being woken multiple times in the night to then have a.

Baby feeding from you. It's incredibly hard. Yeah. So looking at ways to support yourself as well. 'cause it's very, very big. 

[00:23:11] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I think your point about milk supply is really important. So at 21 weeks. Probably this person is producing colostrum, and it could be that some of the more frequent wakings, if they have ramped up a little bit, are about higher sodium levels.

Not being as sated by a feed, maybe being a bit thirsty after a feed, not not getting as many sleepy hormones and settling into feed, sleeping, so. I'd probably suggest that at 15 months, there's, again, there's still nutritional aspect of feeding and you may want a cup of milk around. It gets a little bit tricky when we talk about dental health.

We don't really want to be drinking cows milk through the night, so maybe water as an option as well. Um, it may be you offer water first and then they're more regulated and calm and then they're more likely to accept other ways of, of settling. At 15 months. I think it may work to talk about milk being asleep.

It may work to have some sort of color change clock, but less of a guarantee, less of a guarantee. They're gonna get that concept. Um, so it's really just about talking, validating, keeping your voice beautifully calm and regulating, you know, using your regulation to, to rub off on them. You might have a go at feeding and then trying to take them off and settle 'em in a different way.

So, so as you say, break the feet to sleep association at the beginning of the night, first with habit snacking and then, then when they're waking at night. You might initially feed and then try and take them off. Now that's tougher in the short term because you've gotta stay awake and, and you can't just go back to sleep's the minute they latch on.

But seeing if you can consistently get it, get them coming off again through the night, and then have a go at reducing the length of a feed. I wouldn't say that for a 3-year-old, but at, at 14 or 15 months, they'd be talking about trying to reduce the length of feeds gradually. And then eventually when they wake, you're moving straight into whatever methods you had been using to get them back to sleep before and see if they'll accept those without a feed at all at 14 months.

The person who asked about that, I would not necessarily expect them to be going 10 or 12 hours without milk. So probably you would be looking at a milk feed in the middle of that at some point. And if you don't want to breastfeed, that's obviously gonna have to be in a cup. And start with the goal of four or five hours.

See how that goes. See if you can get their circadian rhythm used to not feeding for that chunk of time, and then gradually extend it. Mm. Only ever set boundaries you can hold. So we don't say to a 15 month old, no, you're not gonna have the boob and then cave. Uh, you know, cave's a hard word, but cave's the word I'm gonna use, you know, 10 minutes later be.

I think it's better for a younger toddler to breastfeed immediately. And then take them off and work on settling them. 'cause at least you've had some milk going into them. And then you've got the chance of practicing settling them when they've already had a bit of a feed. I think what works less effectively is trying to delay the feed and then finally feeding because you're giving them the message that if they hold out, eventually the milk will come.

But there are gonna be big feelings. And even if a child can't communicate what they're going through, even if you can't communicate with them, that doesn't mean there aren't gonna be big feelings. But you absolutely have the right to try and partially night wean at this age, even if it, yeah, it may not be easy, but as I said, possibly expect some, some alternative milk being needed.

[00:26:26] Carly: Mm-hmm. And I think, again, how well resellers are you to begin that journey? And for some people it's really worth kind of laying it all out on the table and being and thinking, am I gonna get more rest when I do this? Is it gonna feel more restful or is it gonna feel harder? And is it. It's better to park this for a little while until I'm in a place where I have more resources or I have more support.

I feel like sometimes when we're really exhausted, really depleted, really wiped out. The decision making can come from a bit of a desperate place, and I have been there and done it, and I've made decisions from a place that was more resourced and rested, and it was a much better journey for me. So I feel like.

Really thinking, thinking about all the, all the different alternatives and all the different options and what's gonna actually be the most supportive for you and for your family. 

[00:27:21] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. The person who talked about the 14 month old said, is it confusing for the child to nurse sometimes at night and sometimes not.

Possibly. Yeah. Truthfully. Um, but that doesn't mean you don't do it if that, if that's what works for you. In terms of the feeding to sleep at bedtime, I think if, you know, I'm not saying there's a massive amount of evidence around this, but my, my experience is if a child wakes once at night, once in the whole of the night, they don't really have a feed to sleep association and you may be able to get away with continuing to feed at bedtime to sleep.

If a child's waking seven times during the night, they probably have that dependency on using the breast to transition between sleep cycles. So working on breaking that feet to sleep pattern at the beginning of the night may be a sensible first step. Okay, next question says, I was hoping that my almost 5-year-old would slowly stop breastfeeding now that I'm pregnant.

But no, he wants it more and says, I've got more milk. I don't want him to view the baby as stealing his milk, but I don't think I'll be able to feed him and the baby, it makes me think I should stop him before the baby is born, but not sure. Mm. Okay. So this person needs to talk to someone, don't they? They need someone.

They need to talk to someone about how to make this decision. It depends a lot on the personality of the five-year-old and their feeding patterns and how dysregulated they get. And do you have other skills? Skills you can use to regulate them because. Ending breastfeeding may not necessarily make life easier.

Um, and parenting them alongside a baby may be harder without breastfeeding. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be hard with breastfeeding, but it might be harder. Harder without breastfeeding. I don't want him to view the baby as stealing his milk. I'm not sure he would think of it that way. I think we often worry about that in this society.

But as I said, he's gonna be resentful of you, not resentful of the baby. He's gonna be angry that you are depriving him, not that the baby's depriving him. When, when the person says, I don't think I'll be able to feed him and the baby, there's an element of uncertainty around that, isn't there? What's your gut feeling?

[00:29:28] Carly: I feel like there's a lot of uncertainty in the whole question, and so it does sound like a really good idea to get some support to kind of nut out what the possibilities are and what feels right for this mother, and if she doesn't have strong feelings against her five-year-old. Not feeding, then yeah, it might be worth continuing it because like you said, it could be more supportive in the early stages with a newborn and having him there.

And again, there's gonna be feelings, there's gonna be feelings there, there's gonna be lots of feelings with the arrival of a new sibling, particularly because he is had five years of parents and five years of breastfeeding without another person, another baby. So it is gonna be a big shift for this child.

So I would really suggest getting clear on what feels right, um, yeah. And knowing that it's not going to be negatively impacting the relationship between the child and the newborn baby. It's more around getting clear around what it feels like the best way forward for this mother. 

[00:30:39] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's right.

Getting clarity and, and it doesn't have to be that the five-year-old feeds in an unlimited way. I mean, you can absolutely, lots and lots of people will tandem feed, but only feed the older child twice a day. Hmm. Or just for maybe nap times or bedtimes, because that's the way they get 'em down for a nap.

Not, I'm expecting a five year-old to be napping. So I, I, I think the main thing is just take some time. You know, I dunno how pregnant you are, but you don't necessarily have to rush this. It's possible if you're only in the first trimester that your milk supply may still change, your colostrum's gonna come along at some point.

There are gonna be variations in your pregnancy. But that first sentence, I was hoping that pregnancy would change things. That's always a bit dangerous because some children have got a really strong emotional attachment to breastfeeding. They wouldn't care if engine oil was coming outta your nipples.

Um, because it's the act of breastfeeding that brings that connection and comfort. And that's the important thing. 

[00:31:34] Carly: And it's also that fear of putting some boundaries in. Like often we hope the children just, they just stop doing it on their own and we don't actually have to implement any changes. 'cause changes can feel scary and difficult and hard, so.

Sometimes we do need to do it and we have to kind of be in the discomfort and hold space for all the feelings that come with that and be okay with that. 

[00:31:57] Emma Pickett: Yep. Be brave. That phrase holding space, which I associate with the, the Wicked Film Press tour and Ariana Holding, um, Cynthia's finger. Um, we people joke about that phrase holding space and they think it sounds a bit naff, but when you use it, what do you, how do you mean it?

[00:32:14] Carly: I've seen so many funny memes that are like, what does it mean to hold space? And there's people just holding air and you know, I find, I find it funny too, but I do use it as you picked up. Um. To me it's around like attuning to the child and attuning to their emotions and welcoming the emotions. Yeah, so welcoming.

There is no positive emotion or negative emotion. There's just emotions and we're human beings. We have a huge variety of emotions and. Anything like breastfeeding, it's a highly emotive for everybody, children, mother, partners, families, everyone. People who don't even breastfeed wanna tell you about breastfeeding.

So it's a very emotive topic, and for me, holding space is really around like letting the child know that how they feel is okay and that you can be with it. Um, so whether there's a lot of anger or frustration or grief or pushback around putting limits in, in around breastfeeding. Sitting with that, being with that, and so not wanting to distract them from the feelings or not saying that, you know, you can go and have a ice cream or watch TV or things like this, but actually being like, yeah, it's really hard.

It's really hard. This sucks, or This feels hard for you and I'm here with you. So being with being with the feelings is probably a better way of describing it. 

[00:33:36] Emma Pickett: Hey, I've got no problem with holding space. I think holding space is a great phrase. I mean, I, I guess there's something kind of metaphorical about how the feelings are coming at you like a big cloud.

You're not trying to bat them away. You're not trying to say, I failed as a parent because my child has big feelings, or I failed as a parent 'cause I haven't found the button that switches off these big feelings. You're holding out your arms and saying, welcome cloud of big feelings. This is not failure.

This is my child expressing how they're feeling. And that's valid and important. And, and they can be angry and they can be disappointed, and they can be sad. And, and with the example of this 5-year-old, if you say, I'm so sorry my love, but mommy's body's tired now and mommy's gonna stop making milk. And I'm so sorry.

And it's okay to be sad and we're gonna help you with your sad feelings. We're not scared of that. We're not, we're not scared of those feelings when they do come. 

[00:34:23] Carly: Yeah. And I think it's a huge barrier to putting in limits around feeding is most of us are really scared of what's gonna happen when we say no.

I think when we start to feel more comfortable with that and knowing like, oh, these feelings make sense and it's okay for my child to like rage or have a meltdown or a tantrum, or whatever words you wanna use. Like that's okay. That makes sense. They've had this thing that they love for all these years and now we're actually saying, no, they can't have it.

Of course they're gonna be upset about it. Yeah. And that's all right. 

[00:34:55] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And gentle weaning. Contrary to the myth you sometimes see online, gentle weaning doesn't mean there is no emotional reaction. Some people say, oh, I want to wean gently. IEI don't want my child to be sad. Of course, that's such a natural reaction.

But actually gentle parenting and gentle weaning is about valuing emotions, valuing emotional reactions, not being scared of them, not trying to avoid them. You know, I sometimes say that if, if we don't welcome our child sadness. The logical conclusion of that is a teenager that runs upstairs and shut the bedroom door and doesn't tell you when they're having a rough time because you've never made it clear that you're welcoming those kind of feelings.

So even with a 2-year-old, we are saying, I know you're feeling sad and angry, my love, and I'm here to help you with your sad and angry feelings. And I'm not looking to switch them off. I'm not looking for the button. I'm not panicking and carouseling through all the things that might switch off the button by offering five different books and three different snacks.

I'm just sitting with them and, and taking some time to observe and see, well, what does happen when my child doesn't breastfeed? Where, where do their feelings go? Do they eventually calm? Yes, they will. What does that look like? 'cause I may never have seen that before. And, and crucially obviously, staying calm yourself and, and staying, and staying regulated yourself and working on your breathing and, and you staying calm and you not panicking.

[00:36:16] Carly: A big part of my workshop is, um, positioning yourself as the researcher of your child and looking at the behavior of your child when they're asking to breastfeed and when they are breastfeeding. So just noticing subtle things like when they're asking to breastfeed, is it like really insistent and urgent and they're like, clawing at your shirt and pulling it down or.

Or are they able to kind of just come up and climb into your lap and ask with words or with gestures and when they are feeding, are they like able to be there feeding or are they on and off and like, you know, moving all around the place and just noticing like different times what's going on in their world, what's going on in your world?

Has something happened And just like looking at that as a bit of a insight into their emotional state. Yeah. 

[00:37:04] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Sherlock Holmes Observations. I call them working out what's what the triggers are. Yeah. Last couple of questions are about self weaning. So this one says, my 22 month old has chosen to drop to one feed a day in the morning.

Does this mean he's self weaning? I neither offer nor refuse. I've lost track again of it goes first. You go first. 

[00:37:27] Carly: Um, I've never understood this. Not offer, don't offer, don't refuse, don't offer, 

[00:37:31] Emma Pickett: don't refuse. Listen, don't get me started. I would just, I would just say, because I wrote an article about this, so don't offer, don't refuse.

I don't think this person necessarily is meaning as a, as a weaning technique. Yes. But people describe it as a weaning technique. Don't offer, don't refuse. And I think it's. Criminally awful to suggest to a parent. It's a weaning technique because saying that you're not allowed to refuse when you have a 2-year-old who asks every 40 minutes, what does that do to the mental health of the parent?

I just think that's, you're not at all modeling body autonomy or consent or looking after yourself or communicating or being authentic. You're just a vessel for milk and the child is just completely in charge. And then you might want to offer, you might be about to go out for a couple of hours. You might feel like offering a breastfeed because you know the child's dysregulated.

I, I think it's a very strange concept. Don't offer, don't refuse. And I think it, it's not fair to say that to parents who are struggling, that word refuse is so emotionally loaded. I think it's really not okay to imply that parents can't decline a feeder, offer something else. So Google my name and don't offer, don't refuse, and you'll get me doing a big rant about it.

Okay. Putting that to one side, this person with a 22 month old is saying, is this child self weaning? 

[00:38:47] Carly: Well, it sounds like it. If he is dropping feeds on his own and he's 22 months old and only having one feed, and I guess if that's just a curiosity, then I would say yes. He is self waning and. If it feels good to keep going.

I mean, sometimes we have feelings around the feeding ending and sometimes the parent, the breastfeeding parent, actually has more grief around the end of the feed, end of the feeding journey than the child. 

[00:39:14] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. And 

[00:39:14] Carly: so self waning can actually bring up a lot of feelings for the parent that they weren't ready or they imagined they were gonna tandem feed, but their child's waned during pregnancy.

So for this mother, I'd say yes. Yeah. It does sound like that's what's happening. 

[00:39:29] Emma Pickett: Yep. Very much so. This child is coming to an end of their breastfeeding journey, and that's okay. I mean, wow, feel proud. What an amazing achievement that is. How special that is. But you're absolutely right to point out that's a child's self Weaning doesn't protect the breastfeeding parent from big feelings themselves.

And you can still have post weaning blues, you can still have grief around that. You can still experience feelings of loss. It can be tough, especially if it was earlier than you're expecting, and, and 22 months is on the earlier side for, for self weaning. So, um, yeah, it's very much possible that, um, that may be tough for the parent.

But yeah, that is the child on the end of their breastfeeding journey. And the next person says, what does self weaning look like at the beginning? Is it them dropping feeds or being less intense? My son is three and has only ever said once to his dad. He didn't want milk and he just wanted a nap. It didn't happen since.

Is it them dropping feeds or being less intense? It can be both of those things. So it can be that feeds are shorter or there are longer gaps between feeds, or they're less likely to ask when they're in emotional situations, or they may choose to play instead. Or they may choose a snack instead. Um, but actually I kind of answered this question by saying self weaning.

I don't think self weaning really exists in a very pure form because it's always a two-way street. You know, when you make your child's spaghetti bolognese, that's weaning them in a way, isn't it? I mean, and that's obviously probably why the words weaning has been associated with introducing solid food.

We're ending the milk journey when we give them their first cup. You know, when we go to work, when we go and have a shower and they're not in the room with us, you know that separation very gradually occurs and happens and, and breastfeeding will gently fade and it's gonna be different for everybody. So some children will drop frequency of feeding.

Some children will have very quick feeds just for a few seconds. I love the fact that he said it once that he didn't want milk and just wanted to nap and didn't happen again. Yep. You can do that and then not wean for three more years. Um, so it's, there's a, there's a massive amount of variation. And I guess one thing I might say is if this parent is trying to kind of be a detective and work out if self weaning is happening.

Does that mean there are some feelings of anxiety around that? Are they worried about self weaning or are they really desperately keen for self weaning to happen because they really aren't enjoying breastfeeding and they may be, are struggling with the idea that parent led weaning may be the right choice for them?

So I'd want to talk to this person about why they're asking. Um, what would you add to that about, yeah. 

[00:42:04] Carly: Oh, I love that you touched on the nuance around. Child, like child led or self weaning because I think, I don't think that really exists because Breastfeeding's a partnership, so it's two, two bodies, two people and children might reduce feeds because the mothers started putting in limits around feeding or some, or they've started going to work or there's been more periods of separation.

So. I wouldn't call that child led weaning. That's like, you know, circumstantial things have shifted in the breastfeeding relationship to cause that to happen. So I guess if this mother's happy to keep feeding, keep continuing. It's really like what are her feelings around it? And is she wanting, is she wanting it to continue is you're wanting things to start changing.

So again, just a gentle exploration into your own feelings around what you want to happen. 

[00:42:57] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Thank you Carly. Right, deep breath. Whew. We answered the questions we got in that, in response to that first request, can I be cheeky and ask you to come back for a future episode? You can say no if you want, and we'll have that recorded.

Um, but I'd love to meet, talk to you again in a few months time and we'll get another collection of questions because I don't think these questions will ever end. Everybody, as you say, needs support around the end of their breastfeeding journeys, and it's, it's just really nice to have you as a partnership to answer some of these questions.

Thank you so much for your time today. Um, I really, really appreciate it. Is there anything you want to kind of leave people with as we finish the episode 

[00:43:32] Carly: just around really looking at the family as a system and breastfeeding as a partnership and honoring your own needs in all of this? 'cause I think there was a bit of a common thread between all the questions around centering the child, so really.

Thinking about yourself and knowing that your needs matter and that you are still gonna have a beautiful relationship with your child without breastfeeding them. 

[00:43:57] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Here, here. Thank you. That's a lovely place to end. Thanks for your time today. Yeah. Thank 

[00:44:02] Carly: you. It's been great.

[00:44:08] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.