Weaning Q&A with Carly from Seed Pod, Part 1

This week, we have two back-to-back episodes answering your questions about weaning. To do so, I’m joined by the brilliant Carly Facius, Midwife, IBCLC, Women's Circle Facilitator and Aware Parenting Mentor. 

We delve into question topics ranging from weaning a toddler while tandem feeding, addressing night-time feeds, and managing breastfeeding with neurodiverse children. 

To find a list of questions, please consult the transcript of this episode.

You can find out more about Carly at www.seedpodfamilies.com or follow her on Instagram @‌seed_pod_

Carly has created a free Guide called “10 Things to Consider When Ending Breastfeeding” for anyone making changes to their feeding rhythm.It offers ideas around setting boundaries, big feelings, play, family dynamics, practicalities and more.

You can access it here: https://tinyurl.com/Get-your-Guide-here

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

Resources mentioned - 

Breastfeeding Aversion and Agitation https://www.breastfeedingaversion.com/home-baa-aversion-and-agitation

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end.

And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too. Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. Um, as you'll have seen from the title of the episode today, I am joined by Carly. Carly is a midwife and an I-B-C-L-C and a parenting mentor from Perth in Australia. And she comes from an aware parenting perspective, but also does lots of work in the parenting space and the lactation space.

And we're going to talk together about some of the questions that you have put to us about ending breastfeeding journeys. Carly does work in the weaning space specifically and runs workshops and does one-to-one support. So it's great to have our extra expertise. And I would also say we may not necessarily agree about everything 'cause I'm not a necessarily an aware parenting person.

100%. And we're here to provide you with two different perspectives. And if we have a big old fist fight, it'll be an enormous bit of gossip and we can, uh, use those clips on social media to increase the, the podcast reach. How about that? Carly? Sounds great. I don't anticipate we will because the conversations we've had so far, I think we are on the same page about being authentic and being focused on the, you know, attachment and, and helping people to change relationships rather than, you know, disappearing for a few nights or putting plasters on nipples.

But, you know, we're gonna be two different people coming at this from different angles. So what we'll do is we'll answer the questions one by one. We'll take it and turns to go first. And I think you and I both agreed when we read the questions that some of them are very intense and quite detailed, and this person who's written this question really needs one-to-one support, and we will not be able to give a full answer that answers all these aspects, but we'll do our very, very best to steer you in the right direction.

Before we get started on the questions, Carly, tell me a little bit about the, the workshops and the work you do specifically around weaning. What, what kind of support are you doing in that area at the moment? 

[00:02:33] Carly: Um, so for the last six months I've been running a online workshop that is centered on ending the breastfeeding journey with love and connection.

So not doing the things that we just mentioned around leaving your child for a few nights to end or putting bandaids, plasters, as you say in the UK on your nipples. So doing it in a way that's respectful and really acknowledges the breastfeeding as a partnership that both the mother and the child, we are wanting them both to have their needs met.

And that was really inspired by many years of working with families that just felt, they didn't feel great about how the breastfeeding journey ended. And I think for something so. Important. There isn't really a huge amount of support on that as a rite of passage. And so that's why I love that that's a huge focus of your work because it can be fraught with lots of di difficult times and there can be a lot of grief and loss around how it happened.

So it's a huge passion of mine for people to have as much support as they might have in the early months of breastfeeding. And obviously we all know we need support the whole way through, but in my experience, I feel like as people come towards the end, it's kind of a bit DIY. Yeah. It's like do it on your own, figure it out.

You know, ask your friends or your mom or someone like that. So I think people being held and supported in that time of transition is just gonna be such a game changer for the whole family. 

[00:04:08] Emma Pickett: Yep. High five. Blowing you a kiss across the world. Totally agree with all that. A hundred percent. Yeah. And people get stuck because they can't find any guidance and do bizarre things that don't fit with their parenting philosophy.

Like picking up a book and thinking it's a textbook and, and doing every single thing that a picture book tells you to do, thinking it's a textbook or as you say, going away for a few nights. You and I had a chat about this a, a few days ago. I'm so confused as to why in 2025 when we know what we know about attachment, relationship building, little people's brains, why people are still saying Go away for a few nights, and that's how you end your breastfeeding journey.

It is utterly mysterious to me because it, it simply doesn't work. I mean it, yeah, the idea that you go away for four nights and the child comes back and you've removed breastfeeding from their brain like a men in black, flashy thing. You'll walk in the door and they'll go, Hey, fantastic, you're finally home.

A I am a bit annoyed where you've, where that you went. 'cause I don't quite understand that. And I'm little and we've had a little bit of a rupture in our relationship as a result of that. And B, can we please reconnect now? And breastfeeding is how we reconnect. And then in that moment, are we really expecting a parent to say, oh no, no, we don't breastfeed anymore.

I mean, you're creating harmful things here that I think will stick with people for their lives. And, and I, and it just is such an odd, odd bit of advice. And what happens the next night? You're meant to magically have night weaned. The child thinks that that's how you settle them back to sleep. You haven't upskilled, you haven't learned to do anything else.

All you've done is put the emotional labor of that rupture on the child and left them with feelings of isolation on top of that loss of breastfeeding. I just find it so confusing and I know, and I know why people say it, because they dunno what else to offer. They have no idea what else to offer. So really clever people who are very in tune to young minds and relationship building will blurt it out as an option because they dunno what else to offer.

And I'm, yeah, I'm really happy to hear that you are in this space too, because parents deserve more than that, right? I'll try not to deep breath, right? I just find it so sad that a beautiful breastfeeding relationship will end with a parent doing something that doesn't feel instinctively, right? Because they just dunno what else to do.

So let us do our best to prevent this happening and, and put guidance in different areas. So should we get stuck into the questions? So we'll go one through one at a time. Some of them are a bit repetitive, but that's okay because often people's language is slightly tuned differently and we can read something into that and, and if the question is similar, I don't think that's necessarily a problem, but let's see what, how we get on.

Right. Question number one, shall I read it out? And then you can answer first and then I'll, I'll answer second. I've got a 22 month old who is just boob obsessed. He eats minimal food, often gets upset and just wants the boob. When I'm around, I worry about cutting down foods as it may impact on his overall calorie intake.

Sometimes even the mention of food has him frantically demanding boob unless it's something like chocolate and, and then she goes on to say, and a second point. I feel like I don't really have any grip or control over when we feed as he goes into meltdowns very quickly. If I refuse at all, I find it distressing too.

How can I slowly start to wean him with a bit more confidence? Hmm. 

[00:07:25] Carly: There's a lot in there. Firstly, I would say that's really hard. It's really, really hard and it does sound distressing for this mother, and I'm sorry that she's having that experience. It sounds like there's some tricky stuff going on in terms of food.

Both table foods and breastfeeding. And I wonder how the family feels in terms of the relationship with food in general and how it's been introducing solids to this child and if it's felt like they're focusing on building a healthy relationship with food, or if there's been some tricky times where there's felt some stress and pressure around food.

Because often I find that when children are feeling pressured to eat, then they're obviously gonna move away from the food. And if breastfeeding feels more enjoyable to him than eating food, it makes sense that he is wanting to breastfeed more often than eat food. So I guess I would just be looking at what can be done in order to support the relationship with food.

And is there ways that this family can kind of feel more relaxed around eating? And is that something that they can get some support around? Because you know, we see so many, so much information around how to introduce foods, when to do it, what are the first foods, how many tablespoons a baby should be eating, all of this.

And it can be incredibly overwhelming for parents. And often they feel like they're in this very high pressure environment to get their children to eat. So I'd be really looking around like, how important is it that this child is eating these meals at this time? And is there ways to incorporate a bit of fun and playfulness into food and make it a more healthy relationship with food?

[00:09:20] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I, I mean, you've just talked about the solid food, which is what I would be doing in this conversation. This is this parent, this family needs help with solid food before they do anything else. Because I think their instincts are right. You can't cut down on breastfeeding if the solid food issue has not been resolved.

And the fact that when she mentions solid food, he frantically starts to demand boob. There's obviously some dysregulation for them around the whole concept of eating. Yeah. And it makes perfect sense that she's not feeling very confident about this. If, if when she does try and reduce breastfeeding, he panics, some of that panic is probably just coming from simple hunger and, and worrying about his food source being taken away.

So I promise we're not gonna answer every question by saying you need to talk to professionals. But I, I do think in this area, this person needs help with solid food. We need to work out what's, what's going on. We need a practitioner who's gonna help you look at the whole relationship the family has with food.

What's happening. Could there be something going on medically? I mean, that's not impossible. What else is happening? And when the child's relationship with food has changed and that parent feels more relaxed around their eating, then we can start thinking about weaning. It's actually dangerous to start thinking about weaning if a child at 22 months eats minimal food.

Um, that, that I think is, is a risk. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I dunno who, if you have any recommendations in Australia for professionals in the uk I talk about Stacy Zimmel, who's feed eats, speak on Instagram. We've got Lucy Upton, who's the children's dietician. You want to find someone who's knowledgeable about breastfeeding and knowledgeable about solid food and, and understands that taking breast milk away does not improve intake for solid food at this age.

Something else is going on. 

[00:10:59] Carly: Absolutely. I would probably just add as well, um, a bit of an exploration into the family's own food stories, because that can play such a huge part into how we show up in terms of mealtimes. So often we bring that into the family dynamic, like if we've had. A difficult time with food or we use food as a reward for ourselves or things like this.

So that can always be helpful to look at that as well. 

[00:11:26] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I would say that she talks about not having any grip or control, so there's obviously lots of emotion going on for her and we're not saying, oh sorry, love you have to breastfeed every hour forever and ever. We, you know, we can see that she wants the situation to change, but that probably has to change by starting at the solid food side of things first.

And then she may be able to feel more regulated and calm herself, which will help her to co-regulate her child if there is a moment when, when she does need to decline her feed. 

[00:11:54] Carly: Hmm. And there's a lack of control around the solid food intake as well, which is a double whammy. You know, both areas feel like there's some powerless and helplessness.

[00:12:05] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Let's have a look at the next question. So it's, this is a meaty one, so deep breaths. Okay. Toddler is two and a half years. We bed share, and he's feeding every one or two hours at night. I'm pregnant and I'm struggling badly with morning sickness and soreness. I'm desperate to stop, but no gentle methods seem to be working.

He loves reading Jesse's milky little plug for my book, and his understanding is excellent. But when it comes down to me refusing at night, all hell breaks loose. I really don't want to tandem feed. So my question's in three parts. Does it reach a point where cold Turkey is the only option? Is it possible to bed, share and wean?

He kicks off if dad tries to get involved in any way during the night. I also feel like I need to stop ASAP so the toddler doesn't resent the baby. Is there a minimum gap you recommend between ending breastfeeding and baby being born? 

Okay. Should I go first on this one? Yeah. So first of all, the question about the minimum gap, it is a myth that there is some standard gap that protects you from your toddler asking for breastfeeds when baby's born.

I have met people who weaned before they even got pregnant, and a year later they have a 3-year-old or a 4-year-old asking for breastfeeds and becoming very dysregulated when the child breastfeeds. Um, I've also had people who weaned less than a month before the baby was born and they were totally fine and there was no bother whatsoever.

So the idea of, oh my God, I've got to wean three months before the birth. I've got to wean four months before the birth. 'cause there's some sort of magic window. It is just not the reality. So let go of that, that might sound scary, but let go of the idea about there being a minimum gap. First of all, even if you get it wrong, inverted commas, and it is too close, the toddler is not going to resent the baby.

The toddler's gonna resent you actually. So the toddler's gonna be angry with you. They're gonna be frustrated with you. It's not going to mean that they don't love the baby or they don't connect with the baby. They understand it's not the baby's choice. Um, even a two and a half year old will get that.

They might be angry, but angry is not necessarily something to be frightened of because those angry feelings are probably gonna exist in some form anyway, whether it's breastfeeding related or not. So we're gonna be supporting the child to, to live life with a new sibling and, and help them to feel that their feelings are validated and help 'em find other ways to connect with you.

And the idea that if breastfeeding isn't part of the picture, those feelings magically go away, I don't think is, is realistic. Second question, is it possible to bed, share and wean absolutely to absolutely possible to bed, share and wean? In fact, I actually think it's easier if co-sleeping as part of your world and that's all that your child's ever known.

Don't try and do two mega changes at once. Um, putting them in their own room as part of the weaning process, I think adds an extra stress and potentially means that you are gonna get less sleep because you'll be walking backwards and forwards. Not only are they losing breastfeeding, they're losing you.

Um, they're not gonna feel that sense of comfort and reassurance that you're still present. Um, it's potentially gonna be tougher. So I would definitely say that you don't have to end bed sharing in order to wean. And then does it reach a point where cold turkey's the only option? Well, that phrase cold turkey's quite a loaded phrase, isn't it?

No one ever says cold Turkey is a lovely, wonderful thing. I mean, when we use that phrase, it suggests something awful. But I guess for some families, for example, if you've only got one feed left, that's a binary, you're rather doing it or you're not. So when you stop that feed, yes, I suppose technically that's ending At cold Turkey, we're not going, you know, 20 minutes, 15 minutes, five minutes, three minutes.

You know, for older children, older toddlers, reducing the length of a feed very gradually just drags out a period of conflict and doesn't necessarily help. So I think sometimes cold turkey's valuable, but probably not. For a little bloke who's feeding every one to two hours through the night cold Turkey in that situation, I don't think is necessarily gonna be helpful for either of you and is gonna make life a lot more stressful.

And I'm really sorry that you're suffering with morning sickness and soreness. That's an extra layer on top of all the emotional complications I would be saying to somebody who's two and a half years old that boobies are sore and mommy's body is feeling really sore. And I'd be honest about that. And I'd be talking about how your body's struggling and that you are really sorry about that and you wish that wasn't the case.

So I would be explaining that things have to change because mommy's body is tired and you mentioned that you have a partner. I'd be getting them involved in those conversations too. And I would be starting to have blocks at night where boobs are sleeping and resting and you're not feeding at. And that go, I suppose, in a way that is cold Turkey, but only a short block of night.

I'm talking about, let's see if we can get to a three or four hour block at some point in the night. Let's see if we can make that four hour block or five hour block. And if you've listened to any of my materials, you know, I'm a big fan of communicating that clearly to children by using some sort of clock or color indicator so they're not waking up and wondering if they're gonna be able to feed.

And then they have that horrible dashed hope on top of not getting to breastfeed. So you explain that the clock shows when milk's asleep, milk is sleeping, and because milk is tired and mommy's body needs a rest and mommy's body's a bit sore, and you gradually extend that gap and your partner can help alongside you.

It doesn't have to be either you or your partner. Your partner might be there to, to give you support. They might be there to take him for just three or four minutes while you catch your breath. But you're going to set a boundary you feel you can hold and you're gonna hold that boundary. And that doesn't mean.

That's not gonna be tough. And that doesn't mean your child won't be angry, but you're gonna hold that boundary with lots of validation and as much explanation as you can do, and you're gonna gradually extend the amount of time that the breasts are asleep for. All hell breaks loose is a really strong phrase, isn't it?

That's a child who's very dysregulated, really angry, not knowing how to settle back to sleep. So we want to think about what other methods you might use. Habit stacking, you know, guided meditations, offering other cuddly toys, maybe food. If he's been feeding every one or two hours in the night, he might be genuinely hungry, so it might be he needs a snack at two o'clock in the morning, rather than expect him to push through to another sleep cycle.

We might have to think outside the box. If you know a banana at 2:00 AM may be something that helps you in this situation, but we just, you need to change things. It's really clear that you're struggling and you don't want to turn and feed and you need to change things, so you're gonna have to hold a boundary.

And even if he's really sad about that, that's still the best thing for your whole family. What would you add to that, Carly? 

[00:18:44] Carly: Yeah, I love all of that. I would also add just that it sounds like there's a lot of clarity around what needs to happen, um, in terms of feeding, changing and Yeah, all hell breaks loose is a really big way of phrasing it.

And I would be thinking about for his sensing that there's another baby coming. He's sensing this shift in the family, that there's a pregnancy. And often in my experience, that's when toddlers start feeding more. 'cause they're wanting to like kind of pull the mother back into them. And so thinking about what other ways can you connect with him?

So it's really hard when you're pregnant and you're exhausted and you're nauseous and it's really hard when someone says, oh, you need to play more or you need to do more things to connect. Like it can feel really hard. And I'm a really strong advocate for lying down games. So games that you can play that can feel connected to your child while you are resting.

'cause often it feels like there is that energetic shift where all of the, you know, whether they're articulating it with words, but there's a sense that life is about to change in a big, big way. And as we all know, having a sibling is like the biggest thing that can happen to a child. The best and worst thing all rolled into one.

So I would be thinking about what are the ways that you can feel connected to him without breastfeeding and looking at ways to kind of reduce feeds in a way that feels sustainable for you. And I guess exploring some of the feelings that are coming up for you, because it sounds like there's some big feelings there for you.

Yeah. What are the ways you can. Work with those feelings to have clarity. 'cause it sounds like the clarity is there, but the boundary is not there. Um, yeah. So what does it feel like to say no to him and when all hell breaks loose, like, can you be with that or can your partner be with that? Can your partner hold space for his feelings?

And like Emma said before, just being really clear about things, being honest with him like you are. You've also got lots of feelings around the breastfeeding coming to an end. But right now, that's what needs to happen for everyone. And that you wanna show up as a playful and present mother. And right now it's too difficult because of feeling sick during pregnancy.

So giving him the amount of information that he can, he can handle. And I guess my suggestion would be not being scared of the big feelings and knowing that they're gonna be there regardless of whether he is breastfeeding or not. And a lot of it's gonna be partly due to him knowing that there's a sibling coming.

I always, I always recommend, you know, getting as many feelings out before the new baby comes. 'cause it's often easier to listen to feelings in pregnancy than with a new baby. 

[00:21:37] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I want to hear an example of a lying down game. Give me an example of something you might do. 

[00:21:43] Carly: In Aware Parenting, we talk a lot about power reversal games.

So they're games that you offer to children when they're feeling powerless or out of control, which, when it comes to changing the changes in the breastfeeding rhythm like that is your go-to. So it would be like, he is the doctor and she is the patient, or he's the teacher and she's the student, or he's the mother Mama and he is the baby.

No other way around. He, yeah, she is the baby. So things where he is, um, he is telling her what to do basically. Um, so he's got the control and he is kind of like in the position of power. So that can be quite good to just very simple games. And then all the usual stuff like reading books, playing puzzles, drawings, like things where you can feel connected.

And I also often recommend special time, which is a term from hand in hand parenting. And that's like 10 minutes of child directed play. So you let them know this is your special time, you're gonna put on a timer for 10 minutes if you choose, if that's an appropriate time for you. And then you let the child know.

And obviously at two and a half you can let him know like, this is your time. I'm here to play with you in whatever way you want. Yeah. With I'm, I'm not 

[00:22:57] Emma Pickett: going anywhere. I'm not leaving, I'm not looking at my phone. You've got me in entirety. 

[00:23:01] Carly: Yeah. 

[00:23:02] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:23:02] Carly: That can be really helpful when children are feeling that shift in terms of the family dynamic changing.

[00:23:09] Emma Pickett: Okay. Thank you. Okay. Few questions now about tandem feeding. So just to say there was a, I did a special episode on tandem feeding, just tandem feeding and questions about tandem feeding with Nicola a few months ago. So you might wanna have a look at for, for that in your feed as well. But we will touch on some tandem feeding questions here as well.

So this person says, I'd love to know more about how to end feeding a toddler Heidi, who's three in January whilst you are tandem feeding. So we've got baby Zach who's five months. We've got Heidi, who's two and three quarters. Heidi has a small feed in the morning and then often just before going to bed.

It has been helpful with engorgement and if she has been well, but sometimes it's the very last thing I want to do. Okay. So Heidi, nearly three feeding in the morning and just before bed. What's your response to that one? 

[00:24:00] Carly: Um, I would be wanting to know which, whether. One of those feeds were the hardest ones.

Like what was the, the feed that was most enjoyable for the mother or the most, you know, that felt okay for her. And if that was something that was the same one, if she was able to kind of continue with that one for some time. And again, like we've shared earlier, giving the child lots of information, just letting them know what's going on, that they're moving towards the end of the feeding journey.

This feels, you know, there's lots of feelings around it. And the mother sharing whatever feelings she has this time, it's, it's feeling harder for her to feed because of X, Y, Z, whatever the reasons are. And then potentially choosing one feed to keep for a little while and kind of like slowly coming towards an end.

And again, like giving lots of information. So if the toddler's fed to sleep, like that could be a good time to. Introduce like a social story where Heidi is the main character of the story and you're talking about Heidi being this person and, and you know, she really loved to breastfeed and her younger brother's breastfeeding, but she's actually coming to the end of her breastfeeding journey and she feels quite sad about this or feels whatever the feelings are.

So creating a story where Heidi is the main character and toddlers love it, they love being the main character in the story. Um, so that can be a really beautiful way to introduce, you know, the changes and then repetition, repetition, repetition can be really helpful. So that would be my first suggestion.

[00:25:35] Emma Pickett: Yeah, social story. I love the idea of that. So sometimes I talk about making picture books about the journey ending, but actually I like the idea about just telling the story of the journey ending. I guess some people would say, okay, be honest to her, but what, what do I say? How do I say? I don't want to feed you anymore.

How do you say, I want to feed the baby, but I don't wanna feed you. And that's, that's often the hardest bit because people want to be truthful and authentic, but they don't want to actually blurt that out and they dunno how to say that. So I sometimes say, okay, we may have to fudge it a bit when it comes to honesty in this moment.

So you might say things like, you know, mommy's body is going to stop making Heidi milk and mommy still makes Zach milk, but mommy's body's going to stop making Heidi milk. And I know that's really sad to hear and I'm so sorry my love and I, you know, we're gonna help you with your sad feelings. One of the things that struck me reading this is Heidi's only feeding twice a little feed in the morning and a little feed at bedtime.

And actually, she even says a small feed in the morning. So part of this makes me wonder whether this is more about a token feed rather than, you know, Heidi's not asking all day long. Heidi's not having five or six massive feeds. There's something here about how the mother's got 99% of the way there and the final 1%, she can't quite bring herself to draw that line, but she's done 99% of the work.

She's meeting Heidi's needs all day long. She's obviously regulating Heidi without breastfeeding. Heidi's obviously not sleeping with the breast and not transitioning between sleep cycles with the breast. So she's 99% of the of the way there. It's just that final step, and that might mean that you've got to give yourself permission to do that, that it's not, we're not actually talking about Heidi's feelings, we're talking about your feelings that you haven't quite given yourself permission to end it.

I think morning feeds are sometimes reasonably easy to get rid of because you just have to get up. You just have to start the day. You just have to go and do something interesting for breakfast and begin the day and say, oops, sorry, my love. We don't have milk any, any milk right now. You know, we'll see milk at bedtime and as you say, maybe stick like that for a couple of weeks and then.

You would explain to Heidi, you know, all the girls and boys in the world stop having milk in the end one day and mommy's body stopping, making Heidi milk and some sort of ceremony, some sort of event to mark that can help draw a line and help children come to an understanding that something special is happening.

So we're not talking about having a weaning party, we're talking about doing some sort of ceremony, marking that end of breastfeeding. That might be giving her a gift. That might be, I have a client who drew a little circle of fairy lights on the ground that might be making a cake, that might be going somewhere special, but explaining that it's ending, that you are care about, that you are regulated, you believe she'll be okay about that.

Rubbing that co-regulation off on her, and as I said, she's 99% of the way there. So it's just about that, that emotional process of letting go and saying goodbye. And again, very similar. Next question says how to end tandem feeding with older child but continue with the baby. I want him to stop, but he's bright and a good communicator.

So argues his case to carry on sharing with his sister. I, I love that language. So is there anything you say differently to that question? 

[00:28:49] Carly: I think the fact that he is bright and curious and a good communicator kind of lends itself to like, then he, he can, that can be an easier process in terms of like, yes, he can argue his case, but similar to the earlier question, like there's something there for that mother that's making it a bit bit difficult to take that final step.

And I think sometimes it can be much easier to. Look at the feelings of the child and think like, oh, it's hard for them to stop. Or it's gonna be, they're gonna be really sad. There's gonna be lots of big feelings, but for many of us, it's actually looking at our own feelings and being like, oh, I don't know how to get them to sleep without feeding.

Or, I don't wanna read them books at night while I'm breastfeeding the other baby. Or I feel like I don't know how to connect with them. That's my easiest way to connect. Or I like to sit down on the couch and have this rest time. Or, you know, there's many, many reasons why we wanna continue breastfeeding.

And even though it's springing up feelings of like, I don't wanna do it anymore. I think it's really important to get some clarity on our own feelings. So I often suggest doing some journaling around that. Like what does it feel like to come to the end of the breastfeeding journey? What would it feel like to, to not breastfeed my child?

How does it feel to say no to my child? Because for a lot of us, like we've been like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. For quite a long time. And so when it comes to actually saying no, that can bring up a lot of feelings of like disappointing somebody that you really love and care about. They might be, you're worried about rupture or disconnect in the relationship.

So I think it's really important for us to not only be thinking about our children's feelings, but really taking time and space to think about our own and how that's gonna impact that. 

[00:30:34] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I think a lot of people who are practicing natural term breastfeeding, and I talked about this before, are in what, in what they call a gentle parenting relationship.

And they sort of think that gentle parenting is about. Always centering their child's happiness and not knowing what else is possible and being frightened of their child, being angry or distressed and literally being frightened of, of big feelings and, and big emotions. They may never have seen a full meltdown cycle or whatever the phrase you want to use.

People use different words for tantrums and the meltdowns. They've always disrupted it with a breastfeed. And the idea that that might not be available anymore is, is quite scary and, and seeing big feelings, which may bring up feelings of guilt for you. So yes, this little wee chap is a good communicator.

I'm pretty sure you are too. Uh, whoever wrote this question. So I would say you want to sit down and think, okay, what language do I want to use with him? What explanations do I want to give that feel as close to the truth that I can possibly share with him that feel authentic and real? As I said, sometimes it's just about, you know, mommy's body's getting tired now and mommy doesn't have enough milk for everybody.

And I sometimes say, little bright people who are really clever get the concept that you had milk by yourself for a really long time before baby came along. You didn't have to share for a long time. And here are all the weeks and months that you breastfed for. I sometimes say literally get a piece of paper mark with a marking pen all the weeks that you breastfed for, and here are all the weeks that your baby's breastfed for.

And baby sisters had, you know, X number of weeks and wow, look, all the weeks you've had, it's now time for baby sister to have a turn by herself. And, and concepts of justice and fairness sometimes will connect to little people. And that doesn't mean you don't have you, you, you know, you have to be happy about it.

You have every right to be cross about it, but it's time now for mommy's body just to make milk for one baby and you hold a boundary. Once you've set it and you make it clear to your child that that's, that's what's gonna be happening.

I want to tell you about my brand new book called The Story of Jesse's Milky. It's a picture book for two to six year olds, and I wanted to write a book that was about weaning, but also not about weaning, because breastfeeding journeys end in all sorts of different ways. So Jesse's story is presented as having three possible endings.

In one ending, his mom is pregnant and Jesse's going to share his milk with a new baby. In the second, his mom is getting really tired and it's time for some mother led weaning. And in the third, we see a self weaning journey as Jesse's attachment to breastfeeding gradually fades. There are beautiful illustrations by the very talented Jojo Ford, and the feedback from parents so far has been so lovely and touching and I'm really excited to share the book with you.

If you're interested in my other books for Older Children, I have the Breast book, which is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And I also have two books about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding for a 10% discount on the last two.

Go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code mm PE 10 Makes milk picket Emma 10. 

Next one. Also tandem feeding. Bit more emotional. My little girl has just turned two. She's really ramped up feeding since her brother arrived and it's getting a bit much for me. I've tried offering her other ways to connect, but she screams and screams until I feed her as well because I can't take the noise.

Is there anything I can do to help her feel close to me when I'm feeding the baby, which doesn't involve her hanging off a nipple. I want to keep feeding her, but I'm struggling with bad aversion and I can't carry on like this. 

What's your feeling on that one? Sounds really tricky to start with.

[00:34:30] Carly: Um, I think linking back to what you said earlier around gentle parenting and this idea that we need to center the child often, you know, at the detriment of our own wellbeing and not necessarily looking at our own needs.

I think that's something that's so important when it comes to any kind of change in the breastfeeding rhythm and being like, is this working for both of us and how does it feel? Because sometimes when we are feeding and we are not enjoying the feed or we have a lot of aversions or we're, or feeding, we are feeling really resentful towards the child around feeding.

They feel that and sense that, and I, I think when we look at the bigger picture, like how is that showing up for them in terms of your connection and your relationship? So we don't wanna say no to the breastfeed. So we'll reluctantly breastfeed and Yeah, absolutely. 

[00:35:20] Emma Pickett: And they see it in our eyes. They know, they, yeah, they pick it up.

They feel like then, you know that phrase hanging off the nipple. I mean, this mom is obviously really not enjoying feeds and that little person. Is gonna pick that up and ask more next time to feel that sense of safety. Yeah. 

[00:35:36] Carly: Yeah. And I always talk about like, are you saying yes with your mouth and no with your body, or yes with your voice and no with your body, or no with your voice, and yes with your body.

So children are so wise and able to sense those subtle cues. So I think it's really important to try to be as clear as we can around, like, do I wanna do this feed? And that's what I said earlier about like what's the least enjoyable feed and the most, and the one that you can enjoy because you want everyone to be getting their needs met, which obviously is not gonna happen all the time, particularly when you're tandem feeding.

There's gonna be many times where it's tricky. But yeah, I'd be looking at. Some clarity around like what's feeling possible and what's feeling good and is there a space to listen to those feelings? 'cause it sounds like there's a lot there and the more practical question around what can the child do while she's breastfeeding the baby?

Does this little girl wanna breastfeed a baby? Like is that something that you could introduce? Um, you could do some more symbolic play around that. Where she is, you know, she is breastfeeding the baby and then she says, oh no, you can't breastfeed anymore, or I'm not willing to breastfeed you right now.

We are going to do something else. So if there's any ways to kind of reenact some of the situations that are going on, 'cause we know that children learn through play, so bringing in some play to it where the child gets to reenact what's going on and perhaps maybe be able to share some of the frustrations or the grief around the change in the feeding, that can be quite a good entry point into it.

In a way that might not be as overwhelming for this mother who's not really ready to sit with all the intensity of the feelings. 

[00:37:17] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, she paints a picture there of how she declines a feed. She says, no, I don't want to feed. Let's do something else. Instead, the little girl screams and screams, that's her language, and then she does feed her because she can't take the noise.

So she doesn't want to feed, but she does feed because she can't take the noise. So I think one question I would say is, what can you do to help you cope with the noise? Not that we want to leave children screaming. Of course we don't, but we also don't want to set boundaries that we then don't hold because that doesn't feel safe for little people either.

So if you are saying no, and you are going to try and hold that boundary. That might be hard if for a very long time you haven't held, held that boundary and that child knows that you don't hold that boundary. So what can you do for yourself to help you hold that boundary, whether it's breathing exercises, listening to music, you know, change of scene, you know, putting on your favorite TV program that's, that's child appropriate.

What, what can you do in that moment to, to hold that boundary? And also start small. Start with, as I said, start with boundaries. You can hold. So if you say to her, you have to wait for five minutes. Here's a timer for five minutes, we're gonna sit and read a story, and then we'll have milk, you know, for five minutes we're gonna do this craft activity with you sitting next to me, and then we're gonna have milk.

And then you gradually extend and, and are there any feeds that maybe you can lean into in the short term? So you might say, well, we're not gonna feed right now, but let's do a feed together later on. That's gonna feel special, that I am gonna look forward to a version. Might be worse if you're tandem feeding.

So can you offer individual feeds at separate times? But just the first thing is what boundaries can you hold? Yeah. And how can you cope with her reaction If she's unhappy and she might have some ideas about what to do, she might have some thoughts about activities that she might like. Maybe she's got some ideas and you can make a little book of, you know, book of resources or box of resources that you can, you can share during those baby feeds.

Um, we don't know how old the baby is, so this could just be really early days and it might be, things will get a little bit easier as, as life settles into the baby. Yeah. 

[00:39:24] Carly: I would just add that when people are starting to experiment with a boundary, and like you said, it is really important to follow through with that, doing it at a time where you feel like it's more possible.

So is, is and being a bit strategic about it, like I'm feeling more rested and more resourced and more spacious in the morning so I can put in this limit around feeding and be able to. Listen to the feelings that are gonna come up when I say no, rather than trying to do it. You know, when people try and do it in the middle of the night, and obviously that's one of the hardest times to maintain a boundary because you're exhausted and your child's sleeping and wake up and they're used to feeding back to sleep.

So I think it's really important to play around with when it feels more possible for you to do that. Like what time of day, how are you feeling, and do you need to walk outside and look at the sky or have a glass of water, or you know, prepare yourself in order to like hold that space for your child.

[00:40:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah. Okay. Next question says, is it possible that I will traumatize my nearly 2-year-old by ending breastfeeding? She's going through a very tricky separation anxiety stage at the moment. I've wanted to stop breastfeeding for a while now. She feeds a lot through the day and night. I feel like now isn't the right time for her.

But then equally, I dunno how long this separation anxiety phase will last. So should I just try and stop anyway or will it make things much worse? 

Okay. So I would say that traumatized is a big word. I don't think we can say that a child will be traumatized by the ending of breastfeeding if a parent is doing that lovingly alongside their child, validating feelings, offering other ways to connect being present.

I personally believe that it could potentially be more traumatizing if you were to continue breastfeeding miserably and resentfully and unhappily and your child detected that. And sometimes I think that anxiety can come from a child sensing that you don't want to breastfeed and then you do consent to a feed and they're very confused and they've got really mixed feelings because they sense you don't really want to feed and then they don't dunno how else to repair that and they want to breastfeed again.

So I think first of all, this person needs to give themselves permission to breastfeeding. And if this child is going through a tricky and separation anxiety stage and that's, you know, been something that's happened for a while, you are gonna be working really hard to find other ways to connect with your child.

You're gonna be upskilling yourself to find ways to help them feel physically close, whether that's cuddling or massages or mummy, little person spa experiences. I don't mean going to a paid spa. I mean, you know, at home, you know, we're gonna do each other's hair, we're gonna do each other's nails. It might be that you make a little snuggly space and you cuddle together and listen to music.

It might be you do breathing exercises together. Um, it might be you do yoga together. Little people can absolutely do yoga alongside a, you know, a parent. You are gonna need to sit down and brainstorm some other things that you can do to help connect with your child, and maybe you will have to breastfeeding more slowly than you might otherwise, if your child is going through a wobbly phase.

Take your time, um, and pause along the way and reflect along the way. But it sounds like you're ready to breastfeeding and I think that that, therefore that is the right thing for you to do. Is there anything you'd add to that? 

[00:42:49] Carly: Uh, I agree with all of that, and I think all that I'd add is around like, how can you resource yourself?

Like how can you resource yourself as you make moves towards ending the breastfeeding journey, and how can you trust that it's okay? Like that's okay to do, that's the right thing for you. There's a lot of suggestion in your question that that's what you wanna do, but there's hesitation around how your child's gonna handle it because of separation anxiety.

And as you rightly pointed out, you don't know how long that's gonna take. There's always gonna be something. So there's never a perfect time to end breastfeeding. So it's more around how are we feeling within ourself and how resourced are we and how are we able to. Choose what's right for us, knowing that that's gonna be right for our family as well.

[00:43:39] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for that. Okay. Let's talk about neurodiversity or as one parent describes it, neuro spiciness and ending breastfeeding. Now this next question is really interesting because you think it's going in one direction and then it suddenly slides into a different direction. So, um, let's see what, you'll see what I mean when I read it out.

So, my baby is four years old and autistic. He's undiagnosed, but, but it's obvious he feeds to sleep at night. We have had a great breastfeeding journey, but I dunno how to end it as his understanding, communication and patience is minimal. He goes to sleep amazingly on the boob and it is a great comfort.

I'm happy to keep going, but one day will he just not want to anymore. Any tips on how to end it? 

[00:44:25] Carly: I love this question. It sounds like you really enjoy breastfeeding and your child enjoys breastfeeding, and that's beautiful and wonderful and I'm celebrating that. And what do you need to end? Yeah, 

[00:44:39] Emma Pickett: so it's so interesting, isn't it?

'cause you think, oh, okay, question about ending breastfeeding for a 4-year-old. Let's go, let's go. You know, not very communication, not a lot of communication. Patience is minimal. And then you go, oh, hang on, this isn't a question about wanting to end breastfeeding. This is maybe a question about a parent who's scared about what the ending is gonna look like.

If the child self weans, what's gonna happen? Is he just gonna not wanna breastfeed anymore? Is that gonna mean that bedtime's really hard and sleep is really hard? Is that gonna be out of my control? How's it gonna work? I'm scared of what life looks like without breastfeeding, so it's not, give me a tip on how to end it.

It's E, how's this gonna work? And I, and I would say that if he doesn't want to breastfeed anymore. He's already found other ways to get to sleep and to be regulated at night. So when that time finally comes, it's not like on Monday night he's gonna say, oh, we're not breastfeeding anymore. And then Tuesday night he's gonna be, ah, I can't get to sleep.

What have I done? You know, this is a disaster. He'll ask to breastfeed on Tuesday night if, if he, if he needs to. So when self weaning happens, and I would say this is also true for Neurodiverse children as well, when self weaning does happen, it's because they are ready and because it's no longer meeting their needs anymore because it doesn't have a function, because they don't feel the urge because something else is meeting their needs.

You might wanna start thinking about some very gentle habit stacking, just so you feel a bit more upskilled and you don't feel like you have nothing to do in this process. Um, so maybe around sleep and feeding to sleep, you might start doing something else that's super gentle that, you know, that seems to connect with him and supports him.

But when he does eventually not want to breastfeed, I genuinely, genuinely feel that you're gonna be okay because he will have found those something else to fill those gaps instead. Now, if you told me I hate breastfeeding, I wanna end it, different conversation, but that's not what this question really says.

It says, I'm a happy to keep going, so let's lean into that. Let's celebrate the fact you've got this amazing tool, and when he wants to self wean, I really believe you'll be okay. 

[00:46:41] Carly: Mm-hmm. And it sounds like there is a real trust in your child. So I think trusting him, trusting you, and trusting the timeline and trusting that there will be other ways without breastfeeding.

[00:46:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Okay. Next question is a different angle In the same situation, so this person's also breastfeeding a 4-year-old. How do I find support to wean my neuro spicy 4-year-old when boobing is by far the easiest way to get him to sleep? How would you answer that one? 

[00:47:12] Carly: I think it's around, it's the easiest way to get him to sleep.

So I guess I'd be curious about why, what's driving the decision to end breastfeeding? 'cause there hasn't been any kind of information given around whether it's enjoyable unenjoyable, but there's a direction that we're going in. And so I guess I'd be really curious about how it's feeling for this mother and how she would like it to look.

Is it just fading to sleep is what we're hearing? 

[00:47:44] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean it, it sounds as though she wants to wean. They want to wean completely. Mm-hmm. But they don't want to lose the tool of getting it. Yeah. Because it is by far the easiest way to get him to sleep. And anyone will know that if you have a neurodiverse child sleep and bedtime and getting them to sleep is, can be really tough.

So, yeah. So I guess taking the question at face value, it is how do I find support? So Lucy Weber, the lovely Lucy Weber, who is a fantastic lactation consultant who also does work around neurodiversity and supporting parents in that space as well. She has a Facebook group that's called Breastfeeding Autistic Children, and it's not super active because not lots of people, uh, have a diagnosed nursing.

Lots of people don't get the diagnosis until later, but I think that would be a good space to talk about this and to, to hear from other parents who are breastfeeding autistic children as well. They may have some ideas. Again, I keep talking about habit stacking, but ultimately it's about not rushing.

It's about finding other techniques that will help him get into that sleep space and get regulated. But I'm not gonna pretend it's not gonna be tough. 

[00:48:49] Carly: Okay, 

[00:48:49] Emma Pickett: so let's talk a little bit more about night weaning. So the next question says, how can I possibly reduce or stop breastfeeding my milk obsessed 2-year-old throughout the night, he constantly wakes between four and eight times a night to feed off me.

We co-sleep. He has big feelings. When I tell him it isn't time. I've started introducing nursing manners, but I'm so tired. I'm so terrified of the fallout when I finally tackle reducing feeds. 

[00:49:18] Carly: Is he fed to sleep? Did we get that? 

[00:49:22] Emma Pickett: Doesn't say that, but I'm going guess that if he's waking four to eight times a night, he may well be.

Yeah, yeah, 

[00:49:30] Carly: yeah. I often look at feeding to sleep. When we start to look at reducing feeds throughout the night, I often find that when we start to shift that that can positively impact the night. However, lots of women enjoy feeding to sleep for all of the reasons that have we've just spoken about. It's easy, it's relaxing.

It's can be enjoyable for many mothers. So if you are willing to. Rejig the bedtime routine. I always feel like that's a good place to start and want trying to stretch out that first part of the night. And again, like giving really clear information to your child around what's gonna happen so that you know if you're going to stop feeding to sleep, what's that gonna look like?

What's gonna happen in the in place of that? If you're not gonna feed on that first wake up, what's going to happen? Are you going to offer them a drink of water? Are you gonna hold them while they cry? Are you going to go out to another room? Are you gonna have a snack? Like, what are the things that you're going to do?

So then the child has expectations and understands what's coming. And again, like I mentioned the social story earlier, choosing what you're gonna do and then using that in the social story and just letting them know each time, this is what we're doing, this is what we're doing, this is what we're doing.

I just feel like that can be so helpful for. Getting that information in and also play before bed. I just think playing before bed can be such a helpful tool for reducing night feeds because we are really looking at that connection piece and the more connection that we have in that bedtime play space where you can be laughing a lot with your child, they, they're releasing tension through their body throughout laughter.

It can feel really loving and connected because when we are looking at older child, like to older children, what are they waking up in the night for? Like what is it that they're waking up for? 

[00:51:31] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I like what you're saying about um, breaking that fe to sleep association. Some people absolutely can night wean and keep feet to sleep, but I do find if a child's waking as much as eight times a night, that's probably waking with every sleep cycle.

They're probably thinking that I sleep attached to the boob and when I wake I have to be on the boob to be able to transition to the next sleep cycle. If you can loosen that feed to sleep association, you know, ask them to come off, explain boobs are going to sleep, have a story or a guided meditation that you're telling them as they fall asleep.

Instead, you may find, and as I've talked before about how Elizabeth Ley wrote a whole book about this concept, that when you do take them off, they may then start to feel safer to transition between sleep cycles without your help overnight. And I definitely have had some clients who've, once they've stopped feeding to sleep, immediately their child is going blocks of time that they weren't going before.

The key phrase in this for me is I am so terrified of the fallout, the parents scared to even get started. So we need to just help the parent think through those feelings and think through what is the absolute worst thing that's gonna happen? What's the absolute scariest horriblest thing that's gonna happen?

A very screaming, distressed child that's very triggering for you and you get dysregulated to. And what would you do in that moment if you really couldn't feel you could cope? I guess you'd feed. That is the worst thing that's gonna happen, and that's not necessarily a disaster. And then I'd also maybe just have a little bit of a wider chat about what's happening with sleep.

So I'm not, you know, I'm not a qualified sleep specialist at this point, but if a child's waking a heck of a lot, let's look at naps. Let's let at bedtime. Um, is there maybe not enough sleep pressure? Are naps a bit too close to bedtime? Are naps a bit too long? What else could possibly be going on? You know, if they're not eating a lot of food, do they maybe need food towards the end of the day?

Some bedtime porridge. You know, what else could be going on? Connected to this next question. I have a 2-year-old booby monster. How do we stop overnight feeds? Any previous attempts have resulted in big tantrums and meltdowns, and she's inconsolable. What alternative methods can we use to settle her at night instead?

Offers of cuddles, water, milk rocking, don't seem to work. I think the question I'd ask is, how long have you been trying? When we say it's not working, is that after three weeks? Is that after three days? 

[00:53:54] Carly: Mm-hmm. 

[00:53:55] Emma Pickett: And I'm not sure that this is about Emma and Carly saying, oh, you haven't done this method. You didn't do that.

You didn't rub their feet. You didn't use that particular piece of magic, because I suspect you are the person that's gonna be able to find those alternative methods, not us. And uh, it may be that you're looking for a switch that doesn't exist. There's nothing quite like breastfeeding, unfortunately.

Breastfeeding is literally injecting sedatives into their bloodstream. There is nothing quite like that. So you have to sort of let go of the dream that you are failing to find the alternative switch. 'cause there may not be one. And it might be that you are just gonna have to stay calm, stay regulated yourself, you know, use calming language, explain why milk isn't happening.

So I think children get really dysregulated if there's no why. If they don't understand why aren't I'm able to feed? Why can't I have a breastfeed? So make sure you've done all the explaining. Make sure you've got the, the book. Make sure you've, you know, I don't mean one particular picture book. Maybe you've made your own book.

May, you know, you've done the social story that Carly was talking about. You've explained that milk is sleeping. Maybe you've got the clock with the sun and the moon symbol. Maybe you've, you've got some other, the kind of communication once you've got the why. And it may be just as simple as mommy's body's too tired now, which is the language I use in the story of Jesse's Milky Grownup.

Bodies are not good at waking up through the night and grownup bodies need to sleep and we have to say goodbye to milk sometimes because grownup bodies have to sleep. Once you've got the why. You just validate, validate, validate, and it's gonna take time. She's not gonna immediately stop crying once you find the magic method.

Is there anything you'd add to that, Carly? 

[00:55:35] Carly: Um, just what we touched on earlier around looking at feeding to sleep and how lots of people like to still do that evening breastfeed, like perhaps in the living room or lounge room, and then move into the bedroom. So it's kind of introducing that idea that we're starting to shift away from breastfeeding in bed.

And I think that can be quite helpful for children to start to change the way that their, their expectations around feeding in the bed. And I, I feel like that can be a good starting point, is that you're not actually stopping the feed. You are offering it in a different place and then you're moving into the bedroom and you're like, now we're going to read a story, or we're gonna tell the social story, or we are going to listen to a guided meditation.

We're gonna do something together to go to sleep. 

[00:56:25] Emma Pickett: In fact, what you just said there answers two questions that are coming up. So I'm just gonna jump to those two questions 'cause I think we kind of covered it. So these, both these questions are about a three-year-old who's feeding just at bedtime, just around the bedtime feed.

Well, I'll read them both together. One says, how do I move away from feeding to sleep? A three-year-old, this is our last feed to drop. So it feels big. She is resisting. And my three-year-old is a milky monster and still requires it as part of his bedtime routine. Even if he just latches for five seconds and then holds it, it has to happen.

Otherwise, he struggles to sleep. How can I make this final leap to get him off? Or should I just let him continue until he is ready to stop by himself? 

Oh, oh. We suddenly swerved into a different lane there. What you were saying before about changing the location, I think that's a big one. If the bedtime feed is really sticking and feels really sticky, start the bedtime feed in different room, start to make the bedroom a different place.

The bedroom is where we listen to our guided meditation, where we do the story. We, we cuddle, um, little people, as you say, a, a beautiful, wonderful narcissist. So having a story about when you were a baby, they love that stuff. And, and you may have five stories. You know, the time when I dropped an ice cream on your toe, the time when, you know, we, you know, lost something and we found it again.

The time when we visited granny, you know, five stories about when you were little and you, and you have that repetition and familiarity and, and the child can have some agency around which story they pick. We want bedtime to be something else that is exciting, not so exciting, but, but appealing. And as you say, play before bed, you know, have lots of connection before bedtime, before you then move into reducing that breastfeed.

And the 3-year-old who's latching for five seconds. Should I just let him continuously? He's ready to stop by himself. You can do. Yeah. Why not? I mean, if it's not bothering you, he's only three. If it's not bothering you and it's takes five seconds, great. What a flipping wonderful re resource that is. I mean, how many parents would die to have something that takes five seconds and, and your child just goes to sleep?

So let's not take that away unless we need to. Um, let's not take that away. Certainly because he's three years old. Let's take it away. When you hate it. Let's take it away. When you resent it. When you dread it, um, if it's working, yeah, why not? It's gonna stop one day, I promise. What would you say to that?

[00:58:54] Carly: Yeah, very much along the same lines. If it's, if it's okay for you, it's okay. It's not for anyone else to decide or it's doesn't, it's not age related. It's really up to you. If that's feeling fine for you, then I would keep it as a handy tool. I would also. Add around the first question. Well, for all people who are wanting to end night feeding and that play element before bed, any kind of play that incorporates breast is gonna be helpful.

Not your breast specifically, but just breasts in general. Um, because when it's kind of symbolic play that's actually talking about the thing that they have feelings about, we're helping them to connect in with some feelings through laughter and that's gonna be helpful. So if there's breasts that are talking to them in funny voices, children love animated objects.

So if you breasts start talking and saying that, you know, you're gonna go out for dinner and go for a walk down the street, or you're going to the park, or are you going to see a band or something like that and that you can't breastfeed right now, um, they might find that quite funny. Or if you were able to, when you are, when they're asking to breastfeed, like asking them like, oh, I wanna breastfeed and where is my breast?

You know, looking, grabbing your elbow or your ear or something like nonsense play. So acting like you don't know what's going on and you need some help from them to find it. So they might find that funny or they might be like, this is really frustrating and I don't like what you're doing. And they might have a bit of a cry about it.

And that's okay too because it's around like helping them connect with some of the feelings and move through some of those feelings because like we've shared earlier, they're gonna be there regardless of whether they're breastfeeding or not. 

[01:00:39] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I'm a big fan of boobs talking. I think we can get our wonderful accents out and they can have silly little voices and, and being silly and playful and looking for humor, you know, following the giggles is something that I've, I've heard people in a way, parenting talk about, you know, that's not, that's not dismissing someone that's helping them work through their feelings.

That's, that's facing it, I think in a, in an age appropriate way. We've got to an hour, so I'm gonna suggest we call, consider this the end of part one. Do, do, do, do, do. That's my little jingle. Music for the end of Carly and Emma, part one, and we'll continue this conversation in part two of Carly and Emma answer questions about ending breastfeeding.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.