Claire's story - milk donation after loss. Part 2

This week’s story will be a difficult listen for some, but such an important story to share. I’m talking to Claire-Michelle Pearson about being a ‘Snowdrop donor’ at Hearts Milk Bank after the death of her son, Rupert. We’ve split the episode into two parts. Part 2 is about her milk donation journey and the birth of Rory, her five-month old (and we do make a reference to other losses more briefly.)

Claire and her husband Russell tried to conceive for several years before she conceived Rupert. Everything seemed to go well with her pregnancy, but tragically, Rupert died during birth. Having heard of milk banks during her pregnancy, Claire decided to donate her milk when it came in, and ended up donating for over six months, helping many babies and families in Rupert’s memory. She also took part in Hearts Milk Bank’s ‘Connecting Hearts’ exhibition. Claire is currently breastfeeding her son, Rory.

You can follow Claire on Instagram at @‌love_bertie_bear

Contact Hearts Milk Bank via their website https://humanmilkfoundation.org/hearts-milk-bank/donating-after-bereavement/

For support after losing a baby:

Sands | Saving babies' lives. Supporting bereaved families.

Saving babies' lives | Tommy's | The pregnancy and baby charity

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

When did someone first talk to you about Rupert's milk and lactation.

Was that something you already knew anything about? What, what? How did that kind of conversation come about? 

[00:00:57] Claire-Michelle Pearson: So, as I mentioned before, I did the hypnobirthing and it was online because of COVID restrictions. And I think people still being very safe and. Also the company is based in Northampton. It meant we didn't have to travel there to go to these meetings and people could join from all over the country.

But it also meant, unlike with, uh, what are they called? NNCT. Mm-hmm. It didn't ask us when we were due, because that one, I think they try and group you together. So everyone that's due around the same time gets put together. So there were a couple of people that had their babies pretty quickly after our, I think the sessions were.

May, June time, and some of the babies were born late June, early July. There were a couple of in August, some in September, some October, and the last one was in December. So it was a big old mix. And we were in a WhatsApp group together and a couple of us added each other on Instagram as well. And one of the ladies donated it to the Heart's Milk Bank, and I thought, that's a lovely idea, and I know it's something that my grand had done.

She'd spoken briefly. I think it was after she'd had my, um, uncle, her first baby, she had a lot of milk in the hospital. This is in the sixties, and they asked her if they could take it to give to other babies 'cause she had loads. Um, and she said yes. So my grand donated in the sixties. 

[00:02:23] Emma Pickett: Wow. That's brilliant.

I don't think I've met anyone who's grand donated. That's, you're a legacy, legacy donor. Yeah. 

[00:02:30] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Um, so. I was already aware of it and I loved the idea. I loved the idea of being able to help if you can. So something else we were looking at was also donating placenta cord, I think. Uh, yeah, I think that's it.

Placenta and cord for research, which then we couldn't do because obviously they had to go off for the postmortem. So this was still something I could do. And. I remember saying to Russ, it's still something I want to do if I'm able to, and I remember not being sure if I would be allowed to because my baby had died and we didn't know why.

I didn't know if that would somehow preclude me in some way. I know that may sound like from this side of things, it sounds a little bit like unknowing, but you're just so, I guess worried, like what else can go wrong? What else will I not be able to do now? 

[00:03:25] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I, I mean, I don't think that's an unreasonable thought.

I know historically there were some milk banks that were a bit nervous about donation after loss and donation after, and you know, if there was a loss for an honor unknown reason. So I think that's a reasonable thing to wonder. Oh, okay. That's 

[00:03:40] Claire-Michelle Pearson: interesting. So after I'd had him, I can't remember if it was, I think it was the next day, a midwife came in and said to me.

She gave me something and said, oh, and I'll go get the medication to dry up your milk. Just like it was just nothing. Like there was no discussion. It was just the done thing. And I said, oh, no, no, I want to donate. And we've got a wonderful bereavement midwife called Tracy Ray. She was also surprised by it and it didn't really know much about it, and then later she came back and said, oh, I found.

This, this milk bank called the Heart's Milk Bank. And I said, oh, yeah, that's, that's the one I'm already aware of. And so then I emailed the Milk Bank. I think I emailed them, I think it was the night he was born or the day after to say, you know, this has happened. I was just so, just wanted something to focus on, I guess, um, something positive I could do.

And yeah, they, they were just absolutely great. Got back to me really quickly and it felt. Like something positive I could do for Rupert. And also as I was talking about with all the aftershocks, one of the aftershocks as well is you, you join the baby loss groups, and I didn't always find 'em the most supportive places to be.

I know that they're really good for some people, but for us it wasn't helpful. Um, we joined a group session and just came away feeling

worse in a way, if that's 

[00:05:26] Emma Pickett: possible. Well, it sounds like it. That's how you were feeling. I have great faith in how you are feeling. 'cause you're so self-aware. Is that, is that because of worrying about other people's feelings? I'm just trying work, trying to put that into words. What do you think was it that made it difficult or not supportive?

[00:05:41] Claire-Michelle Pearson: I think in some respect, because we'd. By that point it's like, yes, we would try again. You'd start learning all the different ways that babies can die and that adds to the, the stress I guess. And also we don't know how to support other people when you are at that point as well. It was just, it was very difficult trying to navigate those places 'cause you don't have any answers for people.

And again, I know that that can, it can be a really useful and helpful space. For people, but for us personally, it, it wasn't, and getting involved with the Milk Bank was a lighter place to exist at that time for us because it was doing something positive on Rupert's behalf to help other people. I remember after you were asking if we got moved anywhere, I don't know if there's a bereavement suite at our hospital.

Or if it was already in use. 'cause it, we, it was never mentioned to us, and it's something I learned about afterwards from the baby loss groups. We could hear people in the neighboring rooms having their babies through the night. And I know that may sound horrible, but I found it comforting that, that their babies were alive.

Yeah, I just remember those moments where. You would hear a woman in labor and then it would go quiet for a brief moment, and then you'd hear the baby cry, and it was this moment of relief of like, they're not going through it too, and their baby's okay. And so it taps into that for me, I guess that there's a possibility you might be able to help somebody else avoid their baby dying.

Like premature babies is, I'm sure you've talked about on here before, a risk of necrotizing it into colitis and human milk can help stop 

[00:07:40] Emma Pickett: that. Literally. Save lives literally saves lives. Yeah. And, and. Even on a lesser scale, we know the massive impact it has on the mental health of parents and yes, absolutely the breastfeeding, the future breastfeeding outcomes, which may save lives in different ways.

Um, you know, we could have a whole hour talking about the enormous impact, um, that Rupert's milk has on families. Yes. Can we just go back to the, the finer, practical details for a moment? Yes. So. You having that conversation with those bereavement of midwives? Um, I mean, we're talking like 2021. Yes. And people didn't realize that that was something to talk about with someone in your situation.

I mean, that's kind of amazing. I'm, I'm hoping that's now changed. Yes. Partly because of your work and the work of Heart's Milk Bank, and you having those conversations with those women on that day will mean that forever throughout their careers, you will be in, you will be in their 

[00:08:30] Claire-Michelle Pearson: minds in that moment.

Tracy, our bereavement midwife is amazing. She came to visit us a lot in the early days, and I spoke a lot about donation and she was really keen to learn more. And so as a result, she has advocated at the hospital to talk about it. She's very keen to take on the leaflets that, um, the Human Milk Foundation made up about lactation choices after bereavement, and they.

They got some pumps to give to people who were bereaved if they chose to donate. And she also, I remember messaging her, I, I spoke to Women's Hour about the art project and that I text her to say, oh, I, I was on Women's Hour and I, I mentioned you and sent her the link and she said, it's so funny, I, she was doing like an online conference with the hospitals in the south of England talking to them about meat and donation.

It was just weird that we were talking about each other on the same day. Oh, wow. Um, that was last summer. But yeah, she's, she's absolutely brilliant and she's really advocating for choices, not just about donating, but choices. Discussing women's choices about, yeah. Not just medication. Whether they want to physiologically decrease their supply.

Whether they want to make a one-off donation, whether they want to do an online, uh, an ongoing thing like I did. Yeah, she's, she's just brilliant. 

[00:10:03] Emma Pickett: Brilliant. That, I mean, choice is that word, isn't it? Yes. Some people may express once and have enough milk to make a piece of jewelry. Some people may go on for longer.

Not many people go on for as long as you did, as we'll talk about in the moment. Yeah. But. I mean, what an amazing legacy that is. The impact you have had on the families that then Tracy is having impact on that is pretty amazing. Let's take a moment to think. Wow. And, and that is Rupert's legacy to all those families, not just the families that you directly donated milk to, but all the families that have been touched by you sharing your story, you know, around the country.

That is what a ripple effect that is. That is amazing. It's heartening that I could do that for my boy. Yeah. I mean, that's powerful. That is really powerful. Yeah. So you've, you knew about the donation. You contacted hearts, they talked about pumping. How did you physically organize your donation? What did the days look like on the days you were donating milk?

So 

[00:11:00] Claire-Michelle Pearson: with a little bit of sort of finagling and working, I'm lucky I got a pump that worked well for me and I didn't have to experiment. I and I, I had, I did have to get a smaller flange because I found also it just, you're not sure what you're doing, so you like racking up the, the suction thinking that's what you're supposed to do.

And I found it actually started to hurt the ola. It was not tearing it per se, but it felt like it was, it was making it very sore. So I, thankfully, the new Flander arrived quite quickly. And I looked back, I started donating on the 18th of December. I think it said it was because I had to do the blood test and whatnot first.

But yeah, so after working out all of that stuff, I, I, and I kept a spreadsheet 'cause I wanted to know how much I was getting and donating. 'cause I like numbers and figures. I, I was pumping five times a day. I initially tried to stay up a bit to do a later. Session, but I guess also lucky that I can store a lot of milk in, in my breasts.

So I, I, I just, I don't think this is necessarily recommended for everybody, but I found that I was able to sleep overnight without having to pump. So I pump in the morning around ish and then around lunchtime, sorry, early lunchtime around 1230. Then again around two, three ish. Then again around seven and then a final one around half 10, 11.

I did try doing it later, but it's also factoring in the washing up and the sterilizing before going to bed, and it was getting late and I was quite tired and I thought I'd just see if it works for me. And like I say, thankfully it did. 'cause I was then able to get that stretch of sleep, which I think helped by way of feeling rested and calm.

And initially I was getting. Around 1500 milliliters a day. Wow. Claire, that's so much. And then by January, February time I was getting 1800. 

[00:13:15] Emma Pickett: Okay. For anyone who's listening, it's a lot. I know I'm talking double the normal output for someone who's, who's producing a full milk supply. So wows, that must have been a military operation.

That's, uh, and presumably you were quite uncomfortable when you weren't pumping. If your levels were at that sort of. Um, point, 

[00:13:31] Claire-Michelle Pearson: well, I'd, I'd wake up and I definitely look like Jessica Rabbit, like pneumatic, huge boobs. And so I, but I, it worked for me. Like I say, I, I very much don't think that's recommended for everybody, but I was able to have that stretch of sleep without, it affected me and I never got mastitis.

I would have a bath every day. I think now that they say it's. Cold compresses for any, I, like I said, I never got any soreness or inflammation, but I, I, I found for me personally, having a nice hot bath at one point in the day, I, I'd pump first and then just massage just to, yeah, I guess I felt like it was keeping everything flowing nicely and whatnot, and that just, 

[00:14:23] Emma Pickett: that worked for me.

[00:14:25] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Yeah. 

[00:14:25] Emma Pickett: Gosh, I'm just thinking in a week that's a heck of a lot of milk. You must have had quite a lot of pickups from the, the bikers. Yeah, 

[00:14:31] Claire-Michelle Pearson: it was maybe weekly, maybe up to 10 days, and it would usually be around 13 liters. Yeah. So, uh, the biker that came to me a lot was John. I had a couple of different ones for the first couple, and then John came to me and he just stuck with me after that.

So we got to know each other quite well and we'd have little chats and whatnot. Um, but yeah, he probably got quite a workout, lifting all that milk I mentioned before about my friend, um, the nurse. Her hospital takes milk from the milk bank and she's the one that actually orders it. And the thought that she has fed some of her baby's rupert's milk was.

Heartening. It was a nice personal connection. I mean, I dunno for sure, because obviously it's anonymous, but I assumed some of the milk 'cause it was like large volumes was going to her hospital. 

[00:15:29] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I think that's, that's pretty likely. 

[00:15:32] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Yeah. 

[00:15:34] Emma Pickett: I want to tell you about my brand new book called The Story of Jesse's Milky.

It's a picture book for two to six year olds, and I wanted to write a book that was about weaning, but also not about weaning, because breastfeeding journeys end in all sorts of different ways. So Jesse's story is presented as having three possible endings. In one ending, his mom is pregnant and Jesse's going to share his milk with a new baby.

In the second, his mom is getting really tired and it's time for some mother led weaning. And in the third, we see a self weaning journey as Jesse's attachment to breastfeeding gradually fades. There are beautiful illustrations by the very talented Jojo Ford, and the feedback from parents so far has been so lovely and touching and I'm really excited to share the book with you.

If you're interested in my other books for Older Children, I have the Breast book, which is a guide for nine to 14 year olds. And it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And I also have two books about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding for a 10% discount on the last two.

Go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code MMPE 10 Makes milk picket Emma 10. I mean, it must feel special to think of all the babies around the world, around the country who, well, probably some of them probably have gone around the world now. They've traveled to different countries.

That's so many little people, so many lives that, that Rupert has touched. That's kind of extraordinary. Um, I'm just imagining your pumping journey five times a day. Does that mean you are not able to go out? Are you not traveling? Does that keep you at home? I mean, I'm guessing the positives of doing this outweighed any negatives, but how did it feel kind of logistically?

[00:17:27] Claire-Michelle Pearson: I guess it did a bit. Um, I, I was also, um, working from home, so when I was working again after maternity leave, it wasn't a problem being at home. I guess because of what happened, I didn't really want to go anywhere. I was quite content being at home. We've got a lovely park right on our doorstep. It's a parkland, so there's a stream, there's a lake.

Um, we could go for nice walks, really close by, like an hour walk around the lake and come back home in time for, for pumping. Um, I think I had to take my pumps out. Once or twice when we went to, when we were looking for somewhere for Rupert to be buried, we chose, uh, a green burial place. That's about a 45 minute drive from here.

And just the way the timings worked out, it meant I took them with me, um, little sandwich bag with some cool packs. But yeah, largely I was at home and I guess. It really didn't, it didn't bother me. 'cause like I say, we just felt quite delicate. Didn't really want to be going out, socializing with people. Um, 

[00:18:48] Emma Pickett: yeah.

How did the people in your life react to your donation journey? Was there anyone saying, oh, is this the right thing to do? Or did you get kind of universal support or confusion? What were people react? How people reacting? 

[00:19:01] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Thankfully, no. I can imagine some people. Doing that for others. Um, but thankfully not, not for us.

Everyone was really supportive and certain members of my family kept telling me how proud they were of me, which is lovely and I've, I've said this before, that it gave people a way to talk to us like a. Space in a way. Like they, they just, grief literacy is pretty terrible. People don't know unless they've experienced it.

Generally, they don't know how to talk to the bereaved. Like I say, people try and make things better. They try and talk about the positives, and it's just utterly, utterly dreadful. There is no positive. In losing someone, especially a baby, um, who's supposed to have this whole full life ahead of them, and it's just completely snatched away from them.

It meant that we could talk about Rupert and, and not that I'm, I want to make things easier for people, but it did make things easier for people. But do you know what I mean? That's not my responsibility as someone who's grieving. But like I said, we also found there were people who just stayed silent and didn't know how to talk to us at all.

Didn't wanna say the wrong things that they said, nothing, but it did give people something to, to talk about and comment on that was more comfortable for them as well. 

[00:20:37] Emma Pickett: So, so when I met you in the, the following summer, you'd been donating. For several months at that point. So I, 

[00:20:46] Claire-Michelle Pearson: I, I did, at first I wasn't sure how long I was gonna donate for, and then I decided to donate for six months fully.

And I, quite early on heard about, um, Becks, uh, the breast milk epigenetic cohort study. And I had some milk in the fridge from early doors. Like the first day or two, and I was able to give that to the study as like a, a first sample and they wanted samples for every three months. And I think I heard about it around sort of two, two and a half months.

And so I thought what I'll do, I'll keep pumping five times a day for six months, and then I will slowly decrease the amount. Because again, I was very mindful about not upsetting my breast tissue or causing sitis. So I, I did that. I dropped a session at the lunch session and I would not pump for as long.

I'd just sort of decrease the amount so that I left a little bit in there. Um, and then, and then I dropped another session. So I was doing the one where I woke up. Then I wouldn't do it again until late afternoon. And then eventually it was just the two either side. So I was still getting around 600 milliliter, six to 800 milliliters with those two sessions.

[00:22:24] Emma Pickett: Okay. So big storage capacity for anyone who's a, a lactation nerd. Um, yeah. You do have a big storage capacity. Yes. 

[00:22:31] Claire-Michelle Pearson: So in the morning when I was doing it full, full force, so to speak. If anyone was interested in storage capacity, the most I think I ever got was 630 milliliters. In the morning. 

[00:22:46] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you're right at the top end of those.

Yeah. Lovely Australian studies in terms of storage capacity. So anyone listening to this thinking, I don't get 600, nobody gets 600 cl. Michelle is the only person I've met. Whoever does, you don't. That is not what we would expect. It's totally normal to get a hundred or less when you. Doing that, that morning pumping session.

Um, yeah. You know, and people get, sometimes get 40, they get 30. I mean, it's such a massive range of normal. I don't want to make it sound like you're abnormal, Claire. No, no. I'm, but I would also, I'm also say, I think this is something I, I said to you once, that there's no doubt that Rory is benefiting now from, from Rupert's milk because you switched on all those prolactin receptors.

You really got your breastfeeding equipment up and running. And you know, when Rory came along and added on some more prolactin receptors, it was Rupert's tree he was adding leaves to. So that's, that's, uh, you know, it wasn't just other babies. You were benefiting. You were benefiting. Yeah. Rory too. 

[00:23:42] Claire-Michelle Pearson: I was just about to say as well, 'cause I had so much, it felt right to donate as well.

Once I knew, oh yes, my grand, like I say, had no oversupply, I've got all of this milk. It felt wrong to me not to do something good with it as well. Initially, like I say, it was for Rupert and his legacy and memory. And then there's this other element of I've got this wonderful gift of all of this milk. I have to share it.

So like I said, I did it for six months and that was 300 liters, um, I donated. Wow. And then for the, the next three months where I was winding it down, it was another 42.2 liters. And so in the end, I wound it down. So I was getting around a hundred, 200 milliliters a day for that last Becks um, sample. 

[00:24:36] Emma Pickett: Okay.

So your statisticy brain, your sciencey spreadsheet was very useful during this winding down process. Um, yes. I just wonder how did it, when you are ending that lactation process, does that bring up more feelings around loss or saying goodbye to Rupert in a different way or. Had you processed the, the good, the sort of ending of it, how did it feel to stop donating?

[00:25:00] Claire-Michelle Pearson: I think it was bittersweet because I knew that I'd been helping people and by that point we'd had the summer party and all these wonderful ladies came up to me to say thank you. Um, and you, you then put real people's stories and faces to. To the, to, it's the other puzzle piece. I guess you, you are anonymously sending stuff in, but then if, I guess if you make yourself known, people then naturally want to get in touch with you to say thank you, even if they had not received my milk.

'cause they'd stopped receiving it. The babies were older before that point. It was just somebody that they could visibly see. 'cause I was sharing, um, information on Instagram about donating they could visibly see someone that they could, you know, tangibly go up to and say, thank you for being part of it.

[00:25:59] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:26:00] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Yeah. It's lovely. 

[00:26:02] Emma Pickett: I remember when I saw you at the summer party, I mean, you talked before about people saying, gosh, don't be, don't be saying people are strong or brave. I think it is brave to go to a summer party where you have a little placard above your head that says, I'm a bereavement donor.

Yeah. I mean, you weren't literally wearing a placard. Know you mean, but you know, you were the mum who was there who was donating after loss. You were a snow drop donor, which is what, how it's called them. Yes. That can't be easy to meet babies, meet dozens of people and, and that is what you are there representing.

Um, I guess, you know, obviously it's, it's an honor in one way and people are incredibly grateful. But that must have been an intense day. 

[00:26:39] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Yes. Yeah. And I remember it being a bit difficult for my husband as well 'cause there was quite a few babies there, but it was okay in the end, just that kind of going in initially and there being a lot of babies.

But again, it, it reminded me of that day hearing other people's babies being born and not being upset about it, but being happy that they weren't experiencing what we were experiencing. Yeah. That their babies were there and living and thriving. It was just, 

[00:27:12] Emma Pickett: yeah. 

[00:27:14] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Hello Rory. 

[00:27:15] Emma Pickett: We're talking about living, thriving babies.

Come to the party. And then tell me about the art project that you did with Leanne. How did that come about? 

[00:27:22] Claire-Michelle Pearson: So I stayed in contact with the Milk bank, um, that they're absolutely wonderful people. They're so loving and caring and protective of. Us. I, I got a message from fli. I can't remember 

[00:27:41] Emma Pickett: what her job title is.

Well, she's communications director is one of the, yes. One of the titles. 

[00:27:46] Claire-Michelle Pearson: And she said that they were planning on doing this art show and wanted to know if I wanted to be involved. And like I said, they're, they're just so wonderful and protective of us and always very mindful of. Although I'm very open and happy to talk about what happened, they're always mindful of I, I might change my mind and not, not want to talk about things.

And so yeah, they're very lovely and kind about asking me if I want to be included in things, but putting no pressure on me whatsoever. But like I said, I was happy to, to talk about it and be involved, and I wanted to. To do it, to represent the snow drop donors and that element of, of the picture of breast milk donation and the recipients.

So yes, it was, it was something I was very happy to be involved in. And the picture I chose, I, I had a couple and I, I sent a couple over. Open to a conversation about how I was gonna be represented. A couple of them I was, you know, just before I took the milk out to John, I, I, Russ would take a picture of me, like holding up all the milk and I would share those on social media to, um, to promote milk donation.

And I know a couple of my friends have since donated as well, because I was talking about it all. Oh, fantastic. So, yeah, I, I was holding up the milk and I got a big smile on my face and I thought. I could be anybody in those pictures. That, to me, doesn't represent my story or the story of bereaved donors.

So the picture I ended up, you know, I was open if they, they weren't happy to use this picture to using a different one, but this particular picture, I'm glad that they were very receptive to it. I, I'm pumping and I've got my top up so you can see the lights from the pump. I've just realized I early, I've still got my boob out.

[00:29:56] Emma Pickett: Don't worry, I can't, I can't even, well, that's, that's the beauty of an audio only podcast, but also I can't even see it. 'cause the, the way the, uh, cutoff on the camera is so don't worry. 

[00:30:05] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Just we couldn't ignore it. Be honest. And I've seen a lot of boobs. Claire, let's be honest, there's more than I've had hot dinners of, um, of breastfeeding.

Is it you just suddenly, you just got it out. You don't even notice that. Um. I, I have been crying in the picture because although I found generally lactating and pumping, I found it very calming. And I would sit and think about Rupert in those moments. And I would wonder what it was like to feed a baby.

Was it like, was the sensation similar or not? And I, I would sometimes pretend that he was there with me, but there were also times where it, yeah, like. Things would get on top of you and you'd cry and yeah, the, there were moments where you are sad as well as comforted by, well, for me, for the pumping. And I thought it was important to represent that side of things as well.

That there is pain behind it as well as love. Yeah. 

[00:31:10] Emma Pickett: Beautifully expressed. Yeah. And that painting is part of the exhibition, as I said, part of the community of hearts and you, you created, created an audio clip to go with it. Tell me a bit more about that. 

[00:31:22] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Yeah, I guess I was just trying to express with my audio just exactly that, that I wanted to make sure that, that, that part of the story was included.

That there is loss and hurt, but also. Love and wanting to honor your baby and their legacy and their ability to have an impact in the world has been taken from them. But by doing this, I could do that for him, but yeah, I, I didn't want to, to paint a completely rosy picture of it when it, that's not the reality.

The reality is your baby has died and it's. It's a horror story. It's devastating. That's, yeah, that's part of the story. 

[00:32:16] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yep. Have you met any other Snowdrop donors? 

[00:32:21] Claire-Michelle Pearson: I don't think I have in this country. In person. I have through Instagram. I'm not sure if I've always been from this country as well.

There was definitely one lady that I spoke to quite a lot on Instagram and she's in America. And she wasn't donating quite the same way she was donating to one family, not going through an organization. Yeah. No, I don't think I really have like a couple of people online. Um, little conversations, but not, not in person.

[00:32:54] Emma Pickett: How did it feel to come to the exhibition and see people looking at your portrait and people sitting there with their headphones on listening to your story while they were looking at you? 

[00:33:03] Claire-Michelle Pearson: It mu it kind of gave me a little glimpse into what it must be like when you're famous and like you go to the cinema or something and people are going to see your film and then they're hearing you talking and, and looking at you, but they don't necessarily realize that you are there looking at them.

It was, yeah, it was, um. It was interesting from that perspective, but it was also, yeah, heartening to see people, not just mine, but all of them, to see people looking at the pictures, listening to the words, and feeling, feeling big feelings. Yeah. It, it was, it was a really good, important thing that they did with the art exhibition.

It just. Presents things in a different way. Yeah, it's a lovely exhibition and it can really powerful, it can travel. 

[00:33:57] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yes. Sorry. As we overlap there. Yeah, absolutely. Art is definitely a powerful way to convey a message from our 

[00:34:04] Claire-Michelle Pearson: perspective as well. I, I had considered some of the stories, but there were other stories that I hadn't necessarily considered, so it opened my eyes to things as well.

Which is, yeah, so I think it's just absolutely brilliant. 

[00:34:18] Emma Pickett: Yeah, the exhibition itself is quite compact in that it's quite good to travel, so it has been around the uk and I think if anyone is listening and they're involved in the hospital or a community space and they're interested in possibly hosting the exhibition, that is still an option.

So get in touch with Hearts, milk Bank and, and Felicity might be able to sort you out. I am aware that we're coming up on the end of a second episode and we haven't even talked about Rory's lactation and your breastfeeding story with Rory. Tell me a little bit about, um, I know you had, you had another loss after Rupert, is that right?

[00:34:50] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Yeah, Rory's my fifth pregnancy. Um, and it took a couple of months, but. I then got pregnant with Rory in the July of last year. 

[00:34:58] Emma Pickett: Yeah, well, I've seen the beautiful results. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. How does it feel to have a pregnancy going right to term, again with the memory of Rupert? I mean, that's a very blunt question, but, and you may not be able to answer that, but I just wondered, were you able to get back in touch with the hypnobirthing positive thinking vibe or No, because it felt very different than you.

You chose a C-section and you didn't want to connect with those feelings again. 

[00:35:24] Claire-Michelle Pearson: I, I very much didn't want to go through a birth again, a a, a birth. It is a birth, um, uh, what's the word I'm looking? A vaginal birth. Again, I didn't want the possibility that something was wrong and it would get missed. Even though I was going for lots more appointments and checks and scans, I didn't fully trust that something wouldn't get missed again.

I think because I was having so many scans, it was easier to plot his growth and to get a more accurate picture. But I didn't fully trust that and I just, I just worried that the same thing would happen again, that I'd feel like everything was going okay, but something would go wrong during the labor and having that elective section booked in where I knew that it would be quick and over and done with.

Was very reassuring. Um, I think if Rupert Hannah died, I probably would've gone for a vaginal delivery again, because other than the tearing, everything else went. I mean, it was quite a quick labor. My recovery was quite good. The pushing element was fine. Like I said, it didn't, it didn't go on for ages and he came out very easily.

But in terms of the anxiety, I just, I just thought I will not be able to, and Russ as well, the hours and hours of laboring and trying to stay out of that head space of this is gonna go wrong again. So yeah, I try to stay as calm as possible. Something that I very much try and keep in mind with all of my pregnancies has been, I want to try and stay calm, not just for me, but for them to surround them with lots of.

Loving feelings in the hope that my oxytocin will be passing through to them as well, and that I just wanna protect them in their little bubble. So I just tried to shut it out to compartmentalize and not focus on grief and loss. And any time that those things came up. Just to, you know, kind of acknow. I acknowledge those feelings, but I'm pushing them to one side for now.

I'll deal with them later. I don't, I don't want to upset myself. I don't want to be stressed. I want to try and stay as calm as possible in this pregnancy. Yeah. So that's what I did and I like to think to some degree that. That worked. Yeah. I've got a lovely happy baby. It's 

[00:38:03] Emma Pickett: you. It's you knowing your body, isn't it?

It's you. Yeah. You know yourself so well and you know what you need. And, and a very happy little Rory is, is the result of, of you, you knowing what's the right thing to do. Mm-hmm. Um, I'm gonna be cheeky Claire, and I'm gonna say, can I get you to come back another time to talk about Rory's breastfeeding journey?

Um, yeah, sure. Yeah. I appreciate this has gone maybe even when, when you finally finished, whenever that is to talk about your endings. 'cause I'm always curious to hear people when they talk about their endings, even if that's not for, for many, many, many months. Yeah. Do you have any feelings around your breastfeeding goals?

What are you thinking you might want to do? 

[00:38:38] Claire-Michelle Pearson: I have been diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis. It was about two months after Rory had been born. So in terms of my goals. Um, I had some goals early doors, but that could have been completely blown outta the water. I'm still breastfeeding now. The medication that I'm taking, I can continue to breastfeed, but I've only been taking it for two months.

I don't, yeah, two months. I don't know what will happen. I dunno if that'll, it'll fully work for me 'cause it takes a while to bed in. So it's a bit up in the air at the moment. 

[00:39:15] Emma Pickett: Okay. Well, I would be honored if you have time to come back and talk to you about that journey. Yes, absolutely. And whatever decision you make, how you come to the decision that you come to and, and what the ending looks like, et cetera.

But let's, um, yeah. I could happily talk to you for another hour now. Yeah. But I'm mind mindful of the fact that, um. The world of podcasts is such, you're not allowed to keep people three hours. Yeah. Really. Let's, well, 

[00:39:36] Claire-Michelle Pearson: I'll, I'll just quickly, let's come back. The medication I'm taking is hydroxychloroquine and the methotrexate is something that's commonly given to people for rheumatoid arthritis, but I don't think you can take it when you're breastfeeding.

That's why I mention that. Um, okay. 

[00:39:52] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Keep us posted and I, as I said, I would love to talk to you again. Yes. Focusing on, on your lactation with Rory Claire, I'm so grateful for your time today. You're just beautifully articulate, which is super handy in the podcast world, but I'm just, just really, really grateful in how you're able to get in touch with your feelings and, and it's just very clear how empathic you are for other people and, and the way you communicate.

In order to help other people understand is a real gift. Um, thank you. And, um, and, and that's also, as I said, particularly benefited the world of, of milk donation because your communication has helped other people get involved. And, and if one person listens to this and decides to research human milk donation and become a donor, that is, that is a massive win in my book.

And if one person is a midwife, says, oh, I must learn a bit more about bereavement and donor, you know, donation after bereavement, that's a massive win. More Rupert Ripples. I'm very grateful for your time and, uh, I look forward to hearing how things progress with your decisions around Rory's breastfeeding journey and, uh, keep me posted.

[00:40:55] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Thank you.

[00:41:02] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.