Claire's story - milk donation after loss. Part 1

This week’s story will be a difficult listen for some, but such an important story to share. I’m talking to Claire-Michelle Pearson about being a ‘Snowdrop donor’ at Hearts Milk Bank after the death of her son, Rupert. We’ve split the episode into two parts. Part 1 covers Claire’s pregnancy with Rupert and his loss. Part 2 is about her milk donation journey and the birth of Rory, her five-month old (and we do make a reference to other losses more briefly.)

Claire and her husband Russell tried to conceive for several years before she conceived Rupert. Everything seemed to go well with her pregnancy, but tragically, Rupert died during birth. Having heard of milk banks during her pregnancy, Claire decided to donate her milk when it came in, and ended up donating for over six months, helping many babies and families in Rupert’s memory. She also took part in Hearts Milk Bank’s ‘Connecting Hearts’ exhibition. Claire is currently breastfeeding her son, Rory.

You can follow Claire on Instagram at @‌love_bertie_bear

Contact Hearts Milk Bank via their website https://humanmilkfoundation.org/hearts-milk-bank/donating-after-bereavement/

For support after losing a baby:

Sands | Saving babies' lives. Supporting bereaved families.

Saving babies' lives | Tommy's | The pregnancy and baby charity

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end.

And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too. Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I am looking at the lovely face of Claire. That's Claire Pearson, who is feeding her gorgeous son, Rory. How old is Rory at the moment? He is going to be five months tomorrow. Aw. Happy nearly five months birthday, Rory. He's an absolute button having his breakfast.

We're gonna be talking about Claire's journey through lactation and motherhood, and we will be touching on loss, which is part of Claire's story, and we'll be talking about milk donorship and the importance of donor human milk as well. Thank you so much for joining me today, Claire. I'm really grateful for your time.

Before we get started, I know you've just come back from the gp. Yes. Um, the life of a breastfeeding mom. Um, how did that conversation go? 

[00:01:33] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Um, it was fine. Um, so yesterday, well I noticed when I was changing his nappy that there were a couple of tiny little pin pricks of fresh red blood and I thought, oh, I'll just keep an eye on that.

And then the next nappy that I changed, um, that was, uh, a poopy one. It had increased a bit and there was some mucus, so it was like smear in the mucus and it was a Sunday. Of course, it's always on a Sunday. But he and himself was absolutely fine. Um, lovely smiley boy, like usual, no fever or anything like that.

So I thought I'll just keep an eye on it and I'll get him to the GP tomorrow. It's not, uh, to my mind an urgent care issue. And then he did a couple more, one, um, rather crudely, we call it a shark, you know, it's like either really, really tiny poop or uh. Something that's come out with, with a fart. And the, again, there was a tiny bit of red in that.

And then another one 15 minutes later that was much more substantial and normal. And my husband said, oh, there's no blood in this one. And I had a look and I could see, 'cause it, it was a, a decent amount, there was some tiny little red smears in it, but it was much, much reduced. So that was. Comforting, I guess.

But yes, we still took him to the GP this morning and we took one of the nappies with us. Um, she said, you know, it can be quite normal. Um, hopefully everything will come back from the lab, more of, uh, as fine. More often than not, that's the case. Um, she wasn't worried. Um, he was very smiley, happy, no fever.

His temperature was good. So yeah, she said, I'm not concerned about him, but if there's any more, then bring him back. So, yeah, I guess it was comforting. A nice, sensible response. 

[00:03:23] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's obviously what we want all gps to be nice and sensible. Um, it is just really refreshing to hear someone not going down the allergy route, because quite often when people go and have conversations about blood in stools, someone goes, oh, maybe your baby's got an allergy, which is so, so unlikely in this scenario.

[00:03:40] Claire-Michelle Pearson: I, I did, I did consider that in the back of my mind as well, just like as a. Just put a pin in that, just in case I need to circle back around to it, because my friend's son has CMPA, so I am aware of it. But yes, like I, I, I eat a lot of dairy and I, I don't know, maybe this is something that you could chime in on now, how, um, if it is a problem with a baby, at what point would it normally show up?

Is it something from birth or is it something that can occur later 

[00:04:09] Emma Pickett: so it can develop later? Any, an analogy can develop at any point in someone's life, but mm-hmm. If it was to do with something you were eating or it was to do with something he was ingesting. The gut's going to be in distress for a while before we see spots of blood.

So you wouldn't get a healthy stool and Oh, spot of blood. Mm-hmm. It would be lots and lots of mucus because the gut is desperately trying to protect itself. Um mm-hmm. You know, possibly very slimy. Um, okay. And, you know, there'd be other symptoms as well, so you wouldn't get normal poo and, oh, tiny bit of blood.

Um, and if it's fresh red blood. You know, that's, that's, yeah, I'm a doctor. I must say I'm not a doctor, but with my I-B-C-L-C hat on that would suggest, you know, a tiny fissure or something in the lower gut, um, rather than the whole of the intestines being inflamed and struggling. And, um, but you know, obviously we do sometimes get blood as an allergy response, but we'll see other sort forms of gut distress as well, and we'll see other symptoms as well.

Like eczema type skin reactions or even respiratory symptoms or reflux or, um, but yeah, there are IB CLCs who are more of an expert in the allergy field than I am. But that's my, my 10 cents. That, that, that, that, that isn't what you're describing. A, a sort of a very distressed gut. But we often get pointed to the allergy conversation 'cause that's what, you know, we see p being discussed online and that's what Yeah.

And lots of medical professionals in their training will get trained sometimes by formula companies that produce specialized formula. So they may be pushed down that road. Yeah. Um, that's a whole other ethical conversation. But anyway, lovely, sensible GP who will I'm sure come back with a, a negative swab.

Um, and um, you know, everything will be fine 'cause he looks like he's. Totally happy with the world. Yes. Not a problem at all. I sleep now. God bless him. Um, okay, let's go back in time. Let's go back to the very beginning of your lactation journey. So your first pregnancy. Was with Rupert, is that right? 

[00:06:08] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Yes.

Yes. I'll preface this as well by saying I am soft as butter, and if I cry, I'd just like your listeners to know I'm okay. I'm always in awe of people that can really pull it together, you know, for, um, uh, like at funerals to do a eulogy. And they just don't completely fall apart. I I, I'm not gonna completely fall apart, but um, yeah.

If I cry, I'm okay. I'm not distressed. I'm okay. I just wanted to, to let people know that first 

[00:06:35] Emma Pickett: for that. Okay. Thank you for saying that. I mean, you say you're in awe of them. I think. I think we're also in awe of people that can. Continue to feel feelings and to be in touch with those feelings and to, and to not let go of them or feel like they're meant to put them in little boxes.

And, and that's, you know, in our society, we're too quick, I think, to think that you're only allowed to feel feelings in certain contexts or for certain length of time. I mean, um. You know, I think it's really important to be in touch with those feelings too, so, oh, absolutely. Not that you need me to say that.

Um, so, so we've met a couple of times, uh, in Yes. The first, the context of the trends too. Oh, good memory. So the Human Milk Foundation, uh, which runs Heart's Milk Bank in Hartfordshire. Has had some summer picnics in the past to celebrate the work of the Human Milk Foundation and, and Hearts Milk Bank. And you were first there as a milk donor?

Yes. And that's when I, when I first met you and um, and then I met you when there was the lovely Connecting Hearts art exhibition in which you are a. Part of, so when we share this episode, I will, I will share that painting again. So that's the very talented artist, Leanne Pierce, who took paintings of lots of members of the community of Heart's Milk bank, that includes the, the bikers that moved the milk around, and then Joe who was supporting donors and families, re recipient families and people who received the milk and people who gave the milk.

And you were there as someone who gave the milk because you were, you are one of the absolute legends of milk donorship at Heart's Milk Bank. We will, we will come on to talk about, but before we do that, tell me about your experience with your pregnancy with Rupert and tell me about Rupert. 

[00:08:12] Claire-Michelle Pearson: So we tried for a really long time to get pregnant.

I started trying to get pregnant when I was 30 and just wasn't happening for a really long time. We took a bit of a break. It was getting quite stressful. Um, we had the opportunity to go live elsewhere with my husband's work for a bit. So we, we did that for 19 months, came back and. Started trying again with fresh heads and hoping for the best.

Also, with a promise from the GP that we could pick up our fertility journey with them as if the break hadn't happened. But that turned out not to be true. When we went to the hospital, they said, no, it resets. And so when they, when they look at you from a fertility perspective, you know, there's the, or if you've been trying for a year without success, et cetera, et cetera.

Reset in their eyes. Wow. Which was very annoying. That's mad. 

[00:09:02] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Well, because you've been in another country, you the trying on another in another country didn't count or something. That's Oh, 

[00:09:09] Claire-Michelle Pearson: when we were away, we didn't try because I didn't want to, if I did fall pregnant there, language barrier. Well it was Japan, so it's okay.

A big language barrier and uh, it's quite a way away as well. It's not like if we were in France, I could just hop on a ferry to come back. It was a bit more separate. So I don't, I don't think it was the fact we'd gone to a different country. It was that we had stopped actively trying for a period of time, um, that they were resetting the clock anyhow, so we were going down the explorative routes.

They couldn't find anything that could be an obvious issue. And then it was January time. And it was cold and miserable and I don't think we particularly tried much that month 'cause it was, you know, it's January, you feel lethargic after eating too much of a Christmas and it's cold and dark and miserable.

And I think we tried once that month and miraculously it, that it just happened for us that month. And it was really difficult to believe it. It just happened just like that. After all that, trying all these doctor's appointments that just suddenly we were there, everything seemed to go okay. I did have a stomach issue at one point, but I think that's by the bi.

I think, uh, where my uterus had just quickly moved upwards. It herniated the, the tube down into my stomach slightly. So I was having to eat my dinner in two shifts so I couldn't put too much food into my stomach 'cause it caused a lot of pain and issues. Um, but otherwise it was a pretty uncomplicated pregnancy.

They thought at one point I might have cholestasis. So I had to go for monthly blood tests towards the end and checks, which was a little bit annoying. But in other respects it was nice because it meant I got to hear his heartbeat a lot in that last, um, sort of month or so before he came. And then we went, I was almost two weeks overdue and there was a lot of pressure about being induced and I didn't want to be induced.

Because I didn't see that there was a reason to be induced other than they wanted to get the baby out. They weren't pointing to any, there was nothing wrong. Um, I had a scan at 38 weeks and it all looked fine. And then another one, the day before he came and they said that the, the liquor level had decreased a bit, but it was still within normal range.

That's the fluid around the baby. And they were predicting that he would be eight pounds, six. And we were sent on our, I, I had a tiny little bit of blood loss the day or two beforehand. So they said, just out of abundance of caution, we'll send you up to, um, uh, what's it called? EPAU, the early, no, not EPAU, um, A DAU, the antenatal day unit.

[00:12:13] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:12:13] Claire-Michelle Pearson: And, um. They wanted to swab me to see if I had lost any amniotic fluid. And I, it was a horrible experience with that particular doctor. 

[00:12:25] Emma Pickett: I'm sorry. 

[00:12:26] Claire-Michelle Pearson: There was also a, a woman laboring as well in, in the bay next to us, and they were trying to get her onto the, the labor ward, and we were waiting a long time and she was there screaming and throwing up, and so trying to talk to that particular doctor was very difficult.

She didn't. Seemed to understand how distressing it all was. And she just carried on talking and she, she was throwing in, you know, well, you're going to get an infection. And I said, well, you haven't even swabbed me yet to see if, if I, my water, I don't think my waters have gone. Um, so the whole thing was just horrible.

And I, I, she was very keen on induction again, and a midwife friend of mine said, well, if she thought your water had gone, why was she offered to examine me to see if. If I was, um, EF faced and whatnot, she said she shouldn't have been offering that as a routine thing because of the infectious if she Yeah.

Yeah. Is she saying that? So it was very mixed messages, very confusing. I'd been going into predominant labor for quite a few weeks beforehand and I just thought if I'd just, if I could just leave me alone and stop talking about induction and stressing me out, I'll be fine. Um, 'cause I feel like it's going to happen.

And then that evening we got home and. Because it was 2021, we were still very mindful about COVID. We were stripping off all of our clothes that we'd worn to the hospital and going for a shower. And as I was getting undressed, we literally just got in the door. I, I said to my husband, oh, I'm starting to have contractions.

It was just like the relief of being back home. I was calm again. And it was, it was happening. And they just continued to progress into the night, unlike previous times where they died off. And, um. About sort of three, four in the morning. I got up and I thought, oh, you know it, it's still going. It's still happening.

Came downstairs and I'd made this lovely little calm room in our living room. Lots of fairy lights up, lots of sort of affirmations up on the wall. To try and focus on, and I had a playlist ready and I had some baby clothes out that I was like picking up like fluffy baby clothes, picking up and hugging them and it's on my ball and oh, it was, it was a really cute little video where our cat.

She's not with us anymore, but she had this little sheep toy that she came to us with when she was a kitten and she used to carry it around like a baby. Uh, I think she thought it was like a kitten and she bought it into me and dropped it next to me. Oh, that's so sweet. I didn't notice at the time. It wasn't until it looked back at the video, um, 'cause I was recording my contractions, so I messaged my husband to come down, um, about half, six-ish saying, you know, my contractions are.

Getting quite close together now. He called up and I was hypnobirthing as well. I think it was really important to note because I think that informed what happened next. We called up the hospital and they wouldn't speak to my husband. They only wanted to speak to me, which I kind of understand. But at the same time, if you're trying to concentrate it, it would've been easier for me in that scenario if I'd spoken to him as well as me.

And I, I was very calm. I had a contraction whilst I was on the phone and I wasn't screaming and shouting. I was very calm. Even though it, it hurt, I was coping through it. And I've heard from other people that sometimes that concern kind of signaled that you are not. Far progressing. They assume you're not progressing because 

[00:16:00] Emma Pickett: you're using the techniques that have helped you to stay calm.

That's 

[00:16:03] Claire-Michelle Pearson: difficult. And so she, the person I spoke to put me off from coming into the hospital, even though my contractions were lasting more than a minute and every five minutes, and I wanted to go in and be seen. But she said, oh, wait until they're every two minutes. Now having it is my first baby as well.

So having never experienced that before, I just thought, oh, okay. You know, everything online says that you should think about going in, if you're going in when they're every five minutes. By the time that later in labor that they were every two minutes, I can't imagine getting up out of the house, getting in the car, 

[00:16:41] Emma Pickett: and walking from a car to the hospital.

Yeah. How far away? Where is your local hospital, by the way? Whereabouts are you? It's 

[00:16:46] Claire-Michelle Pearson: two miles away from us, so it's close, but the corridor to get to the labor and delivery is a long corridor. It's a long old way. But it's just the whole, every two minutes is quite misleading because it lasts at least a minute.

So as you're coming off of the wave of the last one, you have less than a minute to collect yourself before you're coming into the next one. It's quite thick and fast by that point. I just can't imagine trying to transfer at that point. So I, I felt quite let down by that. But also because that was at six 30 and I remember feeling Rupert kick and putting my hand on my stomach and saying, oh, hello little boy.

And asking Russ what the time was and he said, oh, it's, it's like, I think it was about 20 past nine. And we went in around 1130 ish. Because I said to him, I think at that point my contractions were every three minutes and I said, I need to go in. I can't. I can't wait. I want to go in. This is getting tough and so I, I just need, yeah.

I feel I, I want to progress to the hospital. So we got in and we were shown to a room and they got the Doppler out, and I just saw the midwives look at each other. And in that moment I knew something was really wrong, but you kind of cling onto the hope of, but I'm, I'm not an expert. I don't know. I really hope I'm wrong.

Um, and then the midwives can't, can't say anything to you. They have to have a doctor come in. So the doctor came in and did the scan and they said, you know, we need to get a scanner in to have a look. And it was the doctor that said, and, uh, it sounds really blunt. I'm glad she put it this way. This baby has died.

And, um, like the reason I say I'm glad you put it that way is because I hate when people sugarcoat things and they, they go, I, I'm so sorry, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Before getting to the point and you're thinking, I need to know what's actually happening. So there was no kind of softening preamble 'cause there is no softening.

But yeah, it was, it's, it's horrendous. Um. So many, many reasons. Obviously the primary reason being your baby has died and it's just trying to get your head around it. You feel like you're in a horror film, and then on top of that, you are in labor, and so you can't just switch off and put it to one side.

Like you've still got to go through the painful waves of labor. Whilst dealing with that and trying to process it all and just not having that room to process it. 

[00:19:50] Emma Pickett: Claire, I can't imagine, um, I don't want to interrupt you to say things that are fairly meaningless, but I need to say, I can't imagine how that must have felt and I'm so, so sorry.

I'm just so desperately sorry. And, um. But I appreciate what you're saying about the bluntness and how we imagine that might seem harsh in some ways, but you, if she'd gone super slowly with, I've got some bad news, and I'm so sorry that, that would've felt like an hour Yeah. Before she got to the bit that you needed.

[00:20:17] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Yeah. Yeah. So they, they scanned me and confirmed. You could just see the scan was just for want of a better word, lifeless. Like, normally when you see a scan, it's, it's like lit up with all that white light. Then they, they switched it to a different function so you could see the colors and there was just, I, I think for the, the blood flow, it was just silent.

Um, yeah. So they, they took a lot of blood from me to test for all sorts of things. It was like 10 vials of blood, um, whilst I was in labor. Oh my goodness. Um, 'cause they need to do it as soon as possible, I guess. To, to get an accurate picture of what's happening. 

[00:21:01] Emma Pickett: Can I just ask you, Russ is obviously with you in the room at that point?

Oh, no, 

[00:21:05] Claire-Michelle Pearson: he's, he's just outside. Oh, sorry. Yes. On the day. Yeah. So on the day. Yeah. Today, not with you right now in the room. He's, 

[00:21:10] Emma Pickett: he's, yeah. On the day he was at, he was there in that moment as well. How did you feel about the care that you then got when you were delivering? Rupert, what? Did you get moved to a different area?

Did you have people with you? What? What happened? Do you, do you feel, I know you, you've talked about some aspects of your antenatal care that weren't great. Mm-hmm. But how did that then feel giving birth to Rupert in that moment? I mean, I dunno if you can even remember it, 'cause you must have been in a bit of a blur.

But how did you feel about the care? What do you think is needed in that moment for someone going through what you were going through? 

[00:21:42] Claire-Michelle Pearson: I think. I mean, there were a couple of things that would've just been good for anybody. For example, like the blind was broken on the window, so we couldn't black out the room, but we were happy to stay in the room we were in 'cause I was laboring at that point.

And they, they did give frank information at the same doctor, 'cause you just kind of want it to be over. But she was saying, you know, the, we can discuss a C-section if you want to. I, the ideal thing for you is to progress with the labor. I guess from a perspective she's probably thinking of like, you know, if you, from in terms of healing, and if you do want to try again, she didn't say this to us, but in terms of physiologically, I guess it's.

The better of, of the two options for various reasons. Um, so no, I, I've, I had a c-section with Rory, and one of the aspects of that is the, in a subsequent pregnancy, you could have an ectopic pregnancy in the scar tissue, and so just factors. And also you have a longer period of. Healing. They say that you shouldn't try and have another pregnancy.

I think it's 18 months after a C-section. So I guess that informed the advice to, to try and continue. But I think with what they were working with, um, it was, it was fine. They left us to do things in our own way. Like they, they didn't try and. Manage us too much 'cause that wasn't what we wanted. And then sort of gently offering, um, pain relief because I, I didn't want to take that before.

So my birth plan had said, you know, I don't don't want to take that unless I'm really desperate, um, because I know it can interfere with the baby. Or that wasn't a consideration anymore. So I did have morphine. Honestly, it didn't feel like it touched the sides. Um, I, I tore in both directions and it felt like every single contraction, it felt like a balloon expanding inside my for wonder, my vagina.

And it would stretch, stretch, stretch, stretch. And then just at that point my thought it can't expand anymore. It was just that tiny little bit extra and it felt like, yeah. And I remember saying, I feel like my clitoris is tearing. Um, I, I feel like I can feel it there and I didn't understand what that was about.

And then his actual birth, I mean, I dunno how much detail you want me to, it's your, whatever you 

[00:24:27] Emma Pickett: feel comfortable with Claire. Lots of people listening will be in that professional space anyway. And will definitely heard some details of people's experiences in past podcasts, but I don't need to share anything that doesn't feel comfortable.

Whatever you feel. 

[00:24:40] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Yeah, I do. I feel comfortable sharing it. Thinking about whether people are comfortable hearing, hearing it. I'll try not to be too. 

[00:24:49] Emma Pickett: I think it's more, I, I'm caring about you more at this point. Mm. Even if there's, even if, uh, we've got one listener left, I, I care about you at this point. So Yeah.

Don't worry about other people. This is, this is about you and, and what you would like to share. 

[00:25:01] Claire-Michelle Pearson: So my labor was pretty quick. Let say we went in at just before 12 and I was examined around 12 and I was. Four or five centimeters, and then I actually gave birth to him about Hubber six. I think that was pretty quick for a first laboring.

I remember at first being stood up and being overwhelmed with the feeling of how unfair it was. I still have to go through this painful procedure of birth. And I'm not going to get to take home my baby at the end of it. Um, after, yeah, after all those years of longing that it had just been snatched from us at, at the finish line.

So yeah, he, um, I, there was no, um, transition period to my mind. I don't remember having that panicky. I can't do this moment. I just said to Russ, something, something has come out of me. And funny, a midwife, she'd been sat there for hours and hours. She literally just popped out the room. 'cause even she, I guess didn't think, oh, it's imminent.

And I said, go get her. Go get her. Something's come out of me. And he was a bit like, what do you mean? So he popped his head out and called her back in. And Rupert's head had come out and. They said, okay, just need to push. And I do remember seeing a lot of stuff of physiological stuff about laboring and positions and your pelvis.

So I was on my side with a peanut ball and I said I wanted to have, what was it? Knees and ankles out. I wanted my knees together and to put my ankles out to open up the bottom of my pelvis. Midwives were like, no, no, no. Open your leg. Open your leg. And I was like, no, no, no. I want to do it this way. And so there was a little bit of a tussle for a second about that.

And Russell lovely, my lovely husband advocate for me. 'cause I'd been saying before, like telling him all this stuff that I'd been seeing. And so he knew exactly what I was saying. He was saying, no, she wants her knees to get her ankles out and.

I remember also seeing about the pressure in your body. So if you breathe in and then breathe out at the moment of the push, it can help with the, the pressure to push out and yeah, one push. And he came out, and I do remember thinking as well, because they, they had to pull his leg outta me. I'm thinking, oh, that was a bit odd.

Like, I thought he would just. Kind of come out completely, but 10. He was a very, very long baby. He was like 57 centimeters. But we didn't want, I, I know some people still want to go through the experiences that they had in their mind of having their baby placed on them, but we'd, they, they did talk to us as well before I gave birth about what exactly we wanted to happen.

And we both said, please just.

I feel awful saying this. We just wanted him to be taken away for that moment until we could process and then decide if we wanted to see him later, which we did. But yeah, just in that moment I just couldn't, couldn't deal with, with, for want of a better way. It feels horrible saying it, but seeing a dead baby.

Um. 

[00:28:36] Emma Pickett: It doesn't sound horrible, Claire, because it's really clear anyone who's listened to the last 10 minutes, how instinct of a person you are and how you know your body and how you and Russ know each other and, and you are listening to your gut all the way along in terms of how you, how you want to deliver him and, and what you want the birth to be.

Why would your gut in that moment not be just as valid? You know, your, your whole birth experience, all your hypnobirthing, everything's been up to trust your body, believe your body, believe your instincts. And that was what your instincts told you in that moment. Yeah. And just because there's some, you know, view that this is what people are supposed to do after they've d you know, delivered.

They're supposed to hold their baby. They're supposed, well sod they're supposed to. Yeah. Because that, what does that, where does that come from? How dare anyone imply that someone has to respond a certain way? Yeah. Thank, thank you. Um, you, I think it's so wise of you to know what your body needed in that moment.

And, and to protect yourself and Russ and just give yourself a moment to breathe. Yeah. Before you do the next thing. Um, he's not going to mind, I don't mean that to sound silly. He, he, if he would want you to be ready to meet him, if that was a choice you were gonna make, and 

[00:29:43] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Yeah. Thank you for reminding me of that.

I guess sometimes, yeah, there's a lot of guilt that you feel over certain things because. I think it's just with any parenthood journey, there's a lot of guilt with stuff. Um, like decisions that you make, you have to try and make the best decisions for you. Um, and I know there are people who, who do want that moment and couldn't bear to think of the baby taken, being taken away.

They wanna spend every precious moment with them, and that's their choice. Yeah. And I guess what, what I'm doing is. In this moment saying it's also okay if that's not what you want in that moment. If that's not okay for you, um, and that's how you best can cope, then yeah, that's what's best for you. 

[00:30:37] Emma Pickett: Yeah, 

[00:30:37] Claire-Michelle Pearson: a 

[00:30:37] Emma Pickett: hundred percent.

I mean, you've used words like awful and horrible, which are. Not the right words because that, that was a, that was a moment where you and Russ as a unit were coming together and saying, okay, we are here for each other now what do we need next? Yeah. Um, you don't want to do anything that you look back with, with a regret because you were rushed into something.

[00:30:58] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Yes. 

[00:30:58] Emma Pickett: Um, 

[00:30:59] Claire-Michelle Pearson: yeah. Yes. 'cause nobody plans for that. It's not in your birth plan. Um, all these different scenarios you think of like. So I had three different birth plans. Um, my ideal one, my not so ideal one where I had to consider different drug options. And then the, the least ideal for me at that time was if I had to have a c-section.

My best friend is a scab, uh, special care baby unit nurse, and she's been in lots of C-sections. So we both had a little zoom with her and talked through what actually happens. In a section what experiences we might have to, to get our heads around it, in case that was an eventuality. So it wasn't completely off the table.

It was my least ideal option, but we were open to it if necessary. 

[00:31:50] Emma Pickett: You were so prepared, weren't you? I mean, I used to with people. Antenatally. You have, you had so much knowledge and, and you know, you'd obviously really taken your time to think about your options and to understand the process. I'm guessing that that feeling of it being unfair.

Seems even more the case when, you know, you, you just had everything you know, that you were aware of and knew what was happening. 

[00:32:12] Claire-Michelle Pearson: I was so careful as well. He was, like I said, we'd tried for so many years. He was so, so wanted. I, I, I wouldn't, so there's certain foods that they say you shouldn't eat. There were other foods that I was aware of that I didn't eat either, like lettuce, for example.

'cause that's a listeria risk. Tahini paste is also a listeria risk. I didn't dye my hair, I didn't wear deodorant. I didn't put unnecessary chemicals on my body. I was just so, so careful. And after all of that, it, it felt like it was for Naugh. Like it, it didn't stop what happened. Happening and then the process afterwards.

I think a lot of people think that, that you know that this massive bomb drops in your life and then that's it. Everything else is repairing from that. But there are multiple aftershocks after that from having to organize a funeral for a baby and. Then like post-mortem conversations and we did a a h CIB investigation as well.

What does that mean? I can't remember what it means now. Um, when, when something has happened, like a death of a, a baby during labor, there's an investigation to check what happened. Um, and it's anonymous, but. It goes into a report with other people and our experiences can lead to recommendations. 

[00:33:55] Emma Pickett: Okay. In terms of hospital procedures, like Yes.

[00:33:58] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Yeah. 

[00:33:58] Emma Pickett: You asking you to come in earlier, sorts of conversations and things like that? 

[00:34:02] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Yes. And making sure the things are understood properly because like I said, when when we went in the day before, we couldn't always hear what the doctor was saying because. Of the other poor lady that was in labor and hadn't been transferred to labor and delivery and the confusion between, well, you, you're telling me that my waters, you think my waters have broken?

Despite there being no evidence to suggest that, and you also saying that they haven't. When she did the swab, she said, oh yeah, no, it was negative. So it was just confusing at that time. Apparently she also went and wrote my name on the board in Labor and Delivery, but didn't tell anybody what it meant.

So when we called up the next day and they put us off from coming in, what the doctor had intended was that when we called up, they saw my name and went, yep, yep. Come in. Um, okay. So yeah, there's, there was some recommendations, uh, of what happened. And with regards to the postmortem, they couldn't find anything in Rupert.

Um, other than that, he was small for gestational age. You remember I said that the scan before guesstimated eight pounds? I think it was eight pounds. Six. Yeah, he was six pounds, 11. Which doesn't sound that small. Everyone goes, oh, well that, that's like normal, isn't it? Um, but because he was. Almost two weeks overdue according to the who's scale, he would've been around fifth percentile.

So yeah, he was small for gestational age, and I, I do feel that there was a bit of a lack of that. I didn't hear that from anybody in the hospital. They just told us the way and we just went on our way. It was, when I mentioned it to my friend later, she said, did they not talk to you about that? My friend who is a midwife, and she sent me the who information and said he, he's small for dates.

That's something that they should have talked to you about and they never did. So yeah, there, there was a lot of, in those early weeks, not knowing why it happened, being very confused. They didn't seem to be a clear cut reason. Uh, with all those vials of blood they took from me, there was nothing in my blood.

The only thing that they found was that there were some signs of infection in the placenta. I think maybe some white blood cells, but that, that could have happened during the labor after my water had broken. But something else that was a little bit annoying. Um, when my water broke, it was green, and so that implies meconium.

And it was when we came to register, uh, his, his death, the hospital notes said, cause meconium aspiration or something like that. 

[00:37:13] Emma Pickett: Whoa. Okay. Gosh. 

[00:37:14] Claire-Michelle Pearson: But that wasn't the reason he, and that's the first time 

[00:37:16] Emma Pickett: you'd seen that anywhere? We just written in the notes. 

[00:37:19] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Yeah. And so we had to ask them to, to go back to the hospital and change it because he may have done that after he had died.

He may just naturally have passed. Yeah. Meconium. Yeah. And it had nothing to do with why he died. And we, we still don't really know, I don't feel like I really have an answer as to what happened. The only thing I can point to is that he was small and that maybe didn't have enough energy reserves to cope with the laboring process.

'cause otherwise, I don't know. I have no idea. And, uh, that's something that. I, I guess I have to try and make some peace with that. I won't ever really get an answer to that. But for, for quite a long time, it, it, it haunted me a bit. Not knowing what the why. Yeah. Because people wanna know why as well. Um, it's something I've noticed is the, at that time, I dunno, maybe other people will, um.

Will recognize this as well if they themselves have lost a baby. You will find maybe that, well, I know I did, there were about three or four women that contacted me that I, you know, I knew from like school or uni, um, or a previous workplace contacted me to say, you know, to, to express condolences, but maybe also to find out what happened.

[00:38:53] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:38:53] Claire-Michelle Pearson: And then a couple of weeks later, they announced a pregnancy, and so it was almost like they were thinking, 'cause I know I, I experienced it too. When you see stuff in the news about a baby that died, I, I wanted to know why, and is there something I can do to avoid that happening to me as well? But yeah, the, the problem with that is that because they have interacted with you, the algorithm is, they're more likely to show you their pregnancy announcements on your wall.

Whereas you may not have seen them otherwise. Okay. 'cause we hadn't interacted for many years. Okay. And I, I get it. I get you want to protect your pregnancy and if there's some reason, like say if I turned brown and said, oh yeah, you know, I, I had a load of shellfish or raw oysters or something, and then that I contracted something and that's what happened, or, you know, I smoked all the way through or something that could point to what had happened, then they can learn from that.

I, I do understand that. That desire to want to protect your unborn child. But like I say, the algorithm then threw up all those birth, um, uh, not birth announcements, the pregnancy announcements. Yeah. Um, yeah, and that didn't feel 

[00:40:08] Emma Pickett: great. No, I can imagine. It really didn't feel great. And it's human beings can be wonderful and selfish at the same time, for understandable reasons.

It's. In, in those weeks after Rupert, um, being born, what, what, what helped, did anything help? Who are the people that really made a difference to you in a positive way? 

[00:40:28] Claire-Michelle Pearson: So people who had experienced loss I found were the best, best in inverted, um, people. Like nothing undoes what happened. It's devastating, and actually you just feel like you're in a horror film and your body is telling you you've had a baby.

That baby isn't there, and your body doesn't understand that. And so I find there were moment, there were moments where it was almost like my brain tricked me. Like, did you just hear a baby call? Or, where's the baby? You need to pick up the baby just for a split second, and then reality would click in and it just.

It just felt like, yeah, these little things just kicking you constantly just to add to everything. Um, but yes, the people that we found were, were the best support were those. So that one friend who had several miscarriages and another whose husband had died, they knew exactly what we needed. Um, and. Some of the worst were people who thought we needed space or we'd, we'd say, you know, we, we just need to try and get our heads around this.

We don't wanna talk to anyone for a little bit. And then we didn't hear from them from, for over a year. Wow. Um, 

[00:42:00] Emma Pickett: it's that cliche of people crossing the road when they see you sort of thing. Yeah. That, that literally and figuratively is happening. 

[00:42:06] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Yeah. People. But one of the things that bugged me, the MO, were two things.

One, people saying, you're so strong, you're so strong. I'm not you. You might see a post online and think, oh, she's coping so well, but that's not my reality. And so to have someone go, oh, you're so strong. It felt like they just sort of turned up at your front door, patted you on the head, oh, you're doing so good.

And then bug it off again. Like it's, there's no real support in telling someone. That they're strong when you don't know what they're going through on a day-to-day basis and how difficult it's for them. And the other thing is when people would say, how are you? I know that sounds maybe strange, but like, it's such a big question in that scenario, but you, you don't know how too much are they?

How do you think I am? Um, and people trying to be positive and putting positive spins on things. One of my friends. We, no, I wouldn't say we had a falling out. It wasn't like that. But our relationship called for a period of time because she is a wonderful person, but very bright and sunny and puts positive spin, like wants to see the positive in things and.

Bless her. I remember coming back from the funeral directors because we would go visit Rupert there and read to him. 

[00:43:37] Emma Pickett: Um, what were you reading to him? Claire? What did you read to him? 

[00:43:41] Claire-Michelle Pearson: Oh, my husband had this story book, um, his, Terry, uh, Gil. One of the, I think he, he was one of the Monty Python law, and he'd written these children's stories and Russ had them read to him when he was a kid.

And so he bought it to R to Rupert. And I said, we should still read those stories to him. So that's what we were reading to him. But I remember coming back and she said, how's your day going? And I said, we've just come back from seeing, uh, Rupert, the funeral directors. And she said something like. Oh, that's lovely.

Or I'm glad you can spend time with him or something like that. And I just thought, well, at least one of us is glad because as much as I felt like I needed to be with him, it was also awful because again, this is a moment that people might find difficult to listen to. He had changed. When we first went to see him, so he was sent away to, um, John Radcliffe for his postmortem, and then went to the funeral directors.

And I remember being really upset that day as well. We got a message from the funeral directors saying that he was there, and just the thought that my baby was being transported around without us even knowing about it, felt so weird and so wrong. Yeah. Like, can you imagine having a living newborn and then someone sends you a message like, oh yeah, the, the down the road we, we've taken 'em down the road.

You, it would just feel so wrong and alien to you that you don't know where your newborn is. So yes, we, we went to see them and I didn't think it was Rupert and we had to have, I had to have the lady come in and confirm it was him, um, because he looked so different. It's just like, you know, his color is different and like his features had sunk slightly and I didn't think it was him.

And so we didn't invite any of our family to come see him because I didn't want him to see him like that. Yeah. So, yeah, nobody else saw him and we didn't invite anybody to the hospital to come and see him. I just, yeah, I just remember just wanting to be home. I guess because, you know, it's my, my safe place.

[00:46:14] Emma Pickett: Do you mind me asking, did you take any photos? Yes. Was that something that people, you were encouraged to do? How, how do you feel about those now and how did, how did that decision go for you? 

[00:46:23] Claire-Michelle Pearson: I, I'm glad we did. Um, because also because the ones the hospital took, bless them. Like I know that they're trying to be helpful, but they weren't very good pictures and he was born in the afternoon, so it got dark.

It was October time. Um, it got dark quite early and they're just kind of fuzzy, dark pictures. So I'm glad that we took some pictures and initially we thought we only wanted to see him the once we saw him about 10:00 PM And I took a lot of pictures because I was mindful that if I never wanted to look at them again, I've got that option.

But if I do, I've got them. So the next day we were going to leave and I said to Rush, I think I need to see him again. And I'm so glad we did because it was, it was about 1:00 PM and it was a sunny day. And I've, I've got some nice pictures of him in the sun and you know, they're clear. You can see them properly.

Because otherwise I don't, I don't think I would've wanted to have shared any of the other pictures because they're just not Yeah, they're, they're, they're not what I would want to share because I, I get, I guess you're so confused in the moment about what to do, what's right. It was, it was good that we had that breathing space to think, what do we actually want to do here?

Yeah, you, you just trying to find the way in the dark. Something I do regret, so we didn't wash him, is we didn't know we were allowed to, and I thought because we don't know how he died, maybe we are not allowed to, maybe 'cause that would interfere with the postmortal. I just, we didn't even ask and we weren't asked and I had to ask if they could cut some of his hair off.

We were given a memory box and we went through it, thankfully before we got home. And there was this little plastic box that said a lock of hair, um, and you could put some hair in it, but it hadn't been done for us. We had to ask. So yeah, I'm glad that we asked, um, and that we actually looked and had that little bit of time to, to think about it.

But I do have some regrets, like I say, with regards to, to not washing him. 

[00:48:55] Emma Pickett: Okay. Thank you for sharing that. I'm aware we're coming up to an hour and we haven't talked about lactation yet. Yes. No, don't say don't say that was a bad thing. I'm, I'm honored that you have spoken to me for as much time as you have Claire and I'm, I, I really think it's, it's been very special to hear you talking about Rupert.

Um, we might have to split this into two halves, so we have to lactation section in the second half.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.