Jenny and Kat's stories - solo motherhood and breastfeeding

I have a bumper edition of Makes Milk for you today, with not one, not two, but three stories of solo motherhood. In this episode, I’m speaking to Jenny and Kat, and in the next, I’ll be speaking to Becky. 

We’re focusing on the concept of 'solo motherhood' by choice, through the personal experiences of Kat and Jenny, who both conceived with donor sperm and faced various challenges along the way. They discuss their decision-making processes, the hurdles they overcame, including medical and financial challenges, and the support networks they relied upon. As usual, we’ll also cover their breastfeeding stories, the resources they found useful, and how they have gone about ending breastfeeding.

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

Resources recommended - 

Book - Genevieve Roberts, Going Solo: My choice to become a single mother using a donor https://www.waterstones.com/book/going-solo/genevieve-roberts/9780349421513

Podcast and solo mum courses - The stork and I https://thestorkandi.com/thrivingsolopod/

Podcast - Motherhood Reimagined https://motherhoodreimagined.com/podcast-home/

Podcast - Not by Accident https://notbyaccident.net/

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. In this episode, we are gonna be talking to three different moms.

The first conversation is just going to be Kat and Jenny, and then I'm gonna have a separate conversation. Becky and this kind of neatly represents the world of solo motherhood. 'cause you can't always get three people in the room at once. Um, so we're gonna have those two conversations separately because this episode is gonna be talking about solo mothers and breastfeeding, not single mothers, solo mothers.

And we'll talk about what that phrase means and, and how people have come to own that and what that actually means in terms of breastfeeding support. So we're hoping to make a resource that helps the mothers and a resource that helps their support network and a resource that helps the people that professionally help them as well.

Thank you very much for joining me today, Jenny and Kat. Let me start with you, Kat. Whereabouts in the world are you? Tell me about your little person. 

[00:01:36] Kat: Yeah, hi. Um, I live in Musselborough, East Lothian, which is right on the outskirts of Edinburgh. And I have a four and three quarter year old son called Fergus, who is donor conceived and yeah, that's us.

[00:01:52] Emma Pickett: Cool. And Jenny, tell us about you. 

[00:01:54] Jenny: I'm not very far away. I'm in Selkirk in the Scottish borders, and I have Thomas, who is very nearly two in a couple of weeks time, and he was also donor conceived. 

[00:02:07] Emma Pickett: Okay. So I'm gonna ask one of you to give me the definition of solo motherhood. It doesn't have to be the dictionary definition, but if someone was to ask you what it meant, how would you describe it, Kat?

[00:02:17] Kat: Um, it means that we are solo mothers by choice. Um, we chose to become parents on our own. The journey can be different. It can be known donor or not known donor. Um, you can get, you know, conceive in different ways. Um, but the choice is there, um, to be the so mother, so, so mother by choice. 

[00:02:40] Emma Pickett: Okay. Can I ask you a little bit about when you first started getting an inkling that this is what you wanted to do?

How did you. Go about making that decision. And how did you go about making your research about what, how you wanted to go about things. Sure. But tell me if I'm asking a question that's too nosy. No. Um, luckily you are here, so I know you don't mind some questions, but I guess we should put a little flag up that says, generally when you meet a solar mum, you don't leap on them and ask them about their conception methods.

But in this particular case we'll be making an exception 'cause you've kindly volunteered to be grilled by me. Yeah. So tell me about your, tell me about your process. When did you first start getting that little sort of twinkle in your eye that you thought this is what you wanted to do? 

[00:03:17] Kat: Um, well I was, um, I was approaching 40 and, um, it was 2017 and I had a very difficult year.

Um, I lost two friends young through tragic circumstances, and I think it just sent me spiraling, um, the guy that I was seeing at the time. Um, and I broke up. It just, we weren't meant to be. There was no hard feelings. It just, it didn't have longevity. And I think I just, um, my resilience was pretty low. I went into therapy and everything we talked about to do with grief and loss, everything came back to the fact that I felt, um, incredibly anxious about the fact that I might miss out on the opportunity to be a mom because I was, um, not in a relationship.

And I was 38, 37, 38. So it just became evident after months of talking to my therapist that, uh, I really wanted to be a mom. And she said, why don't you do it on your own? And I thought, I just can't, I just can't do that. And then we just explored that. Why can't I do that? What are the barriers? And I just thought, wait a minute, maybe I can do this.

I started listening to various podcasts about other solo moms by choice and their journey. And um, I made an appointment with my gp. And the GP was incredible. She was a lady and she was around my age and she just said, I'm gonna have to refer you, um, for this because the NHS doesn't treat single women.

Um, but she said, I will do everything I can to help you. I will give you whatever tests we can on the NHS because, um, I think this is wonderful. And I was like, oh my God. 

[00:04:56] Emma Pickett: Oh, bless her. Yeah. 

[00:04:57] Kat: So she was really supportive and that was like the first contact I had and I just think it would've maybe gone very differently if she hadn't had that kind of attitude.

[00:05:05] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:05:05] Kat: But she made the referral and, um, I waited a long time. I finally got heard back from the, um, like I would've basically been a, um, a paying patient within the NHS fertility treatment. Um, but they didn't do the treatment I wanted. I wanted to try, IUI, which is, um, artificial insemination. I wanted to try that.

Um, and they said, we don't do that. If you want that treatment, you'll have to go to GCRM, which are based in Glasgow. And so I made a consultation appointment, initial consultation appointment with them. And that got the ball rolling. He the, they did some tests and then I spoke to a doctor and they said, these are your options and this is what you need to decide.

You need to decide what your budget is financially. You need to decide what your budget is emotionally, as in how many rounds are you prepared to go through and what your time limit is. Because, um, really you need to decide how long you're gonna try this for. 'cause, um, it's difficult. It's a, it's a rollercoaster.

So yeah, I just did a lot of thinking. Um, I remortgaged my house, released some money, and I set up a plan for the next year and basically started my treat and I found my donor, bought my sperm, had it shipped to Glasgow. 

[00:06:23] Emma Pickett: Do you mind me asking, is that, was that UK based sperm? 'cause I know people get sperm from Scandinavia and 

[00:06:28] Kat: Yeah, it's from the European sperm bank, which is based in Copenhagen.

Okay. So my donor is Danish. And yeah, so that all happened during the year of 2018. That was a year it took to do the test, do the consultation, do the thinking, and get the sperm. And my treatment first round of IUI was January, 2019. And then basically I had three rounds of IUI, January, February, March. They didn't work.

I think this, the likelihood is, was like seven, 7% chance of working. Um, so they didn't work. And then I had a break where I had to go through more paperwork and then I started IVF process in July, got my eggs taken and um, my body overreacted to the drugs and I went, I got, um, OHSS ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome when you're, you're, you just swell right up 'cause of all the hormones.

Um, so they basically got four good embryos. And then they were put in the freezer in Glasgow for months whilst my body kind of got back to normal again. 'cause they said it would be too dangerous to transfer a fresh, a fresh embryo. So four little embryos went into the freezer and I had them transferred in November and December of 2019.

And, uh, I got them transferred two at a time because of my age. Um, they felt that it was very unlikely that they both would stick. And the first, the first two did not stick. And the second transfer happened on the 16th of December and one stuck. And he became Fergus 

[00:07:59] Emma Pickett: Igu. Yep. Woo hoo. Yeah. Gosh. Thank you very much for sharing all that.

So, I guess people may not realize that if you're a, if you're a mom doing this process on your own, you don't get access to any NHS support. No. You don't support, there's no assisted conception at all. There's 

[00:08:14] Kat: very few cases I think you have to prove you're having problems with fertility. So maybe if you've tried with a partner for years and you can prove that you are, um, you have problems conceiving, then the NHS may help you.

Um, it's the same with same-sex couples. I think they have to go through six rounds of IUI that are unsuccessful before they are eligible for NHS treatment. 

[00:08:37] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I, well, I, I heard one story that when I did some, some training with the wonderful aj and they told a story about how a trans couple who were absolutely not going to be conceiving, um, had to have fertility testing mm-hmm.

And show they were not able to conceive naturally. So there's, there's definitely some NHS muddling going on here. But yeah. Anyway, that's a separate story. That's another conversation. Um, we've got the lovely Fergus as a result of that. Thank you very much for sharing that. I'm gonna pause you for a second 'cause I'd love to hear how Jenny's story compares.

Is that a similar sort of story to you? Jenny? What did you go through? 

[00:09:11] Jenny: Um, I was very lucky because I have been going to Iceland for. Since 2011, I've got a very good friend in Iceland who went through much the same process. Um, she's single and had always been single and decided she didn't ever wanna be in a relationship, but she did want a baby.

And she'd had a cousin that had had a baby by herself before. And she decided when she was, I think only 34, that that's what she was gonna do. And she, she was given the most awful review by the fertility clinic. They told her she'd got absolutely no chance. And then she got pregnant first time. 

[00:09:48] Kat: Mm-hmm.

[00:09:49] Jenny: And she now has a little boy called Lolly Lofter, and he's gonna be eight. So I'd seen her go through this process and she's a good, she's about three years older than me. And then I think when I hit 37 and I was still single and I had moved to Iceland, I was living in Iceland. I'm also a midwife, so I was working in the postnatal ward.

And it's not uncommon in Iceland there's an awful of donor conceived kids, both same sex couples and. Solo mums. So I was like, oh, well maybe I should give it a go In Iceland, it's um, it's sort of semi funded, but there's, there's certainly no discrimination against solo mothers. You get the same level as funding as you would with a couple, but it is still very, very expensive.

I made the appointment in March 21. I phoned them up, I think, and then I got the sort of, go ahead, went through, I had to go through social work and counseling and all the fertility tests and everything, and got the go ahead to try IUI in, I think it was August 21, and I tried two rounds of that and it didn't work.

And I had one straw left also from the European sperm bank. And then I had actually met a guy, I met a guy at the same time as I started trying, and I was, I told him as, as soon as I met him, I was like, I'm in this process. I'm, I'm not stopping it for you. And then he, he decided he was quite serious about me and that we would try together.

So we tried together for six months and nothing happened. And he was already 40 and, uh, had various health issues. And we went to the doctor and they said, you need to just go straight to IVF. So we actually did one round of IVF together, which was very unsuccessful and quite traumatic. And then we broke up all and after that, and I was already in the system for IVF then, and I phoned them up in tears and said, we've broken up.

Have I lost my, have I lost my appointment? Because I know probably in the uk if you were in it as a couple, you would then get kicked out as a single person. But they were like, no, no, no. It's your appointment. Um, you're scheduled for December, it'll go ahead. And, um, the second round of IVSI had by myself was a lot more successful and I got three embryos and one of them is now come.

[00:12:07] Emma Pickett: Wow. 

[00:12:07] Jenny: And there's two embryos left in Iceland, which is a bit of a strange dynamic because I, I moved home last year when he was eight months old. I realized that you can't keep these little people away from their grandparents, especially when they don't have any, any other relatives really. So, yeah, we moved back and we're having a lovely time back in Scotland.

[00:12:28] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Oh, lovely. Scotland. I was there the other day visiting the university with my daughter. Um, so when you, you mentioned those embryos back in Iceland, Jenny. Mm-hmm. What, when you think about them, what, what are your feelings around that? 

[00:12:41] Jenny: Uh, very, very mixed. Very mixed. I know that, um, the fertility clinic out there, they don't, what do you call it?

They don't put the embryos back into anybody over the age of 45. So I'm 41 now, and I'm paying every year to keep them there. Um, and I'm quite glad that the decision will be taken away from me. Three and a half years. Uh, but yeah, now and again, I do think, well, yeah, they're there and I could make it happen if I really wanted to, but it is quite a dilemma.

Um, I think most solo moms find it quite a dilemma as to whether or not to try and have another one. It's such a huge decision and undertaking even just the conception process, nevermind having another baby by yourself. So, yeah. Um, I haven't reeled it out, but it, 

[00:13:33] Emma Pickett: it's, it's not like, okay. Okay. Thank you very much for sharing that.

I mean, I guess one of the things that strikes me, and there's obviously the huge emotional side of this and making the decision on those grounds, but financially there's a huge responsibility. I mean, this is on your shoulders. Not only are you going to be, you know, going through pregnancy and having to work and then working out maternity leave and how much time you can have off work and what you can afford.

To, to make it family based on the idea that you are solely financially responsible does add an extra layer for people, I think when they think about what solar motherhood must be like. 

[00:14:10] Kat: Yeah. 

[00:14:11] Emma Pickett: A finances part of that decision for you. Jenny, if you don't mind me asking, is that a, is that a factor you think, in whether you might have a consider a second child?

[00:14:19] Jenny: It probably should be more than they're to be honest. Um, but I think I'm very, I'm lucky 'cause I kind of grew up on very little and I'm used to living on very little and uh, I was super lucky with my, I bought a flat in Iceland and the money there is crazy. The housing markets just going up and up and up and up and up and I actually made enough money to buy a flat here when I sold that flat.

So I've got a very little, not particularly lovely flat, but um, I'm very happy in it and I've got that. So I have that security and I feel that we are secure enough. It's not gonna be a lavish lifestyle and. I could just outstretch it to have another one. I don't see that. I, I know the future is also when they want to go to university and all the rest of it.

Um, yeah, finances probably ought to be more of a factor in it than it, it isn't. But then I'm always a bit like that about finances, that sort of think about it afterwards. 

[00:15:16] Emma Pickett: Mm-hmm. I think that's healthy. That sounds good to me. What, what do you, when I mention the word finances to you, Kat, what do you, what comes into your mind?

[00:15:24] Kat: I'm the same as Jenny. I, if I wanted to do it, I would make it happen. I would find the money, I would, I dunno, take a loan, ask my parents. But the thing stopping me having a sibling is that I have a very energetic child. Like Fergus is full on. He sucks all of my energy out of me. And, um, I'm 46, so it's, it's probably not gonna happen easily.

So I think, you know, he, between the age of, I'd say 18 months and maybe four, I was absolutely exhausted running after this tearaway of a wee boy. I mean, he's kind and loving and incredibly sociable, but he likes to run everywhere. He's, he's just high energy. And I, I just couldn't do that on my own. I feel like two kids like that is too much for one person and I'm fairly fit and healthy.

And the other decision for me was that my parents were very hands-on. So I had Fergus, my mom was 73 and uh, she was very hands-on in looking after him and physically very fit and strong. She's now 77. My dad's about to turn 80 and I just don't think she could do that again, because there's been quite a difference in her energy levels over the last five years.

So, um, everything's changed in five years. Um, I don't think we're in the same position we were. And I would make it work. I would remortgage my house or find the money, take a loan. But I think from, personally, I think two kids are very, very difficult to manage. I know people who've got less energetic kids and have had siblings, but I feel like they're in a different situation than me.

'cause they hang out with me in Fergus and they are like, whoa, I see what you mean. Like he's, he's a handful and I'm like, he is a handful and hopefully it'll calm down one day. But, you know, I, I can't imagine having to on my own. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:17:23] Emma Pickett: You've talked about your parents being a big part of that, your support network.

At what point did you tell them you were gonna go for soda, motherhood. And how did they feel about that? 

[00:17:32] Kat: I actually told them before I went to that GP for that first appointment because I knew I couldn't do it on my own. I needed, um, not their blessing, but I needed them on board. Um, so I told them all about it and they said, yeah.

She said, we'll do it together. We were looking at a spreadsheet of finances for the first three years, and I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna make this work. And one of the, we had option one, option two, option three, how we were gonna make it work. And option two was move back home for the first three years until we get the funded childcare and rent out my house in Edinburgh and live on the income from that.

And mom and dad said that they really wanted me to not give up my job and to stay in the community that I was part of. And they basically helped me financially until the 30 hours of free childcare kicked in when he was three. So that's what we agreed before I even started trying. We worked out how we were gonna do it financially for the first three years.

'cause the first three years are really hard financially. 

[00:18:37] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Gosh. You are organized. That's, um, that's a real model of how you need to sit down and really plan this stuff. Um, even though there's an, there's an element of going with the gut, there's also an element of you need to get this soldiers in, in line, don't you?

Or your, or your ducks in a row rather. 

[00:18:51] Kat: In terms of organization, I am fairly organized, but there's solo mums out there who analyze everything, um, and are so methodical and organized. Uh, like they're way beyond what I did. You know, I was, I was playing with numbers and looking at different scenarios of how we could make finances work.

But, um. You know, you don't go into, because it's a a choice thing. You don't get pregnant by accident. There's years of planning and thought and therapy and counseling that goes into this. So it's not a whim. It's like one of the most biggest decisions and most thought about things that you, that so a solo parent could do in their life.

That's for sure. 

[00:19:30] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jenny, tell us about your support network. Do you, do you mind me asking if you've got parents around supporting you? Yes. Or if not, who are your supporters? 

[00:19:40] Jenny: Thomas is with them at the moment. Um, yeah, my parents are in the same little town. I'm, I'm back in Selco where I grew up and I moved back here in May last year.

I didn't think that would happen. I thought I would carry on living in Iceland and I was, um, I was quite shocked to discover that I was moving back home. I moved, I came back when he was three and a half months old for two months over Christmas. And, uh, seeing the relationship. He recognized my mom, I swear he did when he was three and a half months old when she came to pick us up.

And I said she flew out to meet us and he recognized her. And I was like, okay. Wow. That's, um, it's a very special relationship. I didn't, I didn't realize I have to say that that would be suspicious. So that's why I moved back. Um, yeah, they're a huge support and I didn't have, I didn't have any support at all when I was in for the first eight months.

Um, I had a neighbor that would drive us to doctor's appointments, but I was quite shocked that the lack of friends coming, um, to support that had all all been very supportive of me having a solo pregnancy and said, oh, yeah, yeah, we'll be around. Just, just shout. Just shout. And actually, uh, the reality of it is everybody's got their own full-time jobs and their own kids, and, and nobody's got time to.

So come and help you out. So yeah, I was very on my own for the first eight months. It makes you realize, um, what you've got in you kind of thing. The strength that you do have, 

[00:21:17] Emma Pickett: definitely the depth that you go to. So, do you mind me asking Jenny about your, so obviously as a midwife, giving birth is perhaps not quite as intimidating as it might be for someone else.

Well, maybe it is. 'cause you know, what can, what can go wrong? Did you have a birth partner? What was your birth like with your Thomas? My mom came out. 

[00:21:33] Jenny: Um, I was, I just thought that I would be, um, a completely normal pregnancy and a completely normal birth. Um, I'm a fit healthy person. Fair enough. I was 39, but I lived in this blissful ignorance that I was just gonna be one of those people that just had a completely normal birth.

And it was all wonderful and easy and an easy postnatal time. Of course, it didn't work out like that at all. Um, I was quite ill during the pregnancy, which is another reason that, another factor that's to be taken into account when thinking of siblings. My pelvis gave up about 16 weeks and I had, um, terrible gut problems and, and then I got, um, rising blood pressure from 34 weeks and ended in preeclampsia getting induced.

[00:22:17] Kat: And I 

[00:22:17] Jenny: was, there was a lot going there when mom, mom said that she would come up for two weeks originally because she was due in August and she was gonna come up for two weeks. And I said to her, well that's quite tricky 'cause I can't tell you when he's gonna be born. He could come anytime within sort of five week window.

So I said, perhaps it's best that you come out towards the end of that and then at least there'll definitely be a baby and you can help. So I booked for her to come out on the, when I was about 41 weeks and in the end, um, she changed the ticket and came out the same day that I was induced. 'cause I got induced by the, so it timed it very well in the end.

So she was there for the whole of the first. Which was amazing. Um, I couldn't have done it without her. I was very, very ill. I had to have three different types of mediKation to get my blood pressure back down. And, uh, the birth itself, the actual giving birth in was fine, but then my placenta didn't come out and I lost a whole lot of blood.

And yeah. And then he ended up going to special care because his blood sugar crashed. And, uh, we were in, we were at my work for five days, which is a very long stay. And I, some people don't usually stay that long at all. And I got treated like a princess by all my colleagues. It was very possible. 

[00:23:28] Emma Pickett: Well, I'm glad that happened because goy, you, you really had a lot going on there, Jenny.

I had a lot going on, but I'm so sorry. I, 

[00:23:34] Jenny: as a very positive experience. Um, yeah. 

[00:23:37] Emma Pickett: Good. Well, I'm glad you had the princess treatment. What did that mean in terms of your breastfeeding support? Tell us about your early breastfeeding with Thomas. 

[00:23:44] Jenny: Um, I got whis of the theater to get the placenta removed and I left him in skin to skin with my mom.

And he tried to feed from her. And since then he's constantly tried, been looking for her boobs. Uh, but yes, but no, I was the, I had been hand expressing since 37 weeks. Um, so I had colostrum and I remember as they whisked me off going, oh, there's colostrum in the freezer, but they'd already helped me to hand express, or hand or hand expressed me before I went.

And he'd been on my chest. I don't think he'd actually latched before I went. But then I, I woke up to the midwife, latching him on in the recovery. Um, and he just latched on. He just, he knew what he was doing straight away. Um, unfortunately, his blood sugars then crashed and he ended up with a feeding tube and he got some donut milk because I'd expressed all this colostrum the night that he ended up getting taken away.

He didn't look good at all. And it was a colleague of mine that picked it up. And she, they checked his blood sugar and I said, there's loads of colostrum. Don't give him any formula. I don't want him to have formula. So they did that and, uh, I think the, maybe the next feed or the one after that, they needed to give him something.

And because I'd been so adamant that he wasn't to have any formula, they'd actually given him donor milk. So that was amazing. I was so grateful for that because it then turned out that he's got a dairy allergy, so goodness knows what, having a dose of formula when he was already in that state would've done too.

[00:25:23] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Sounds like Iceland is pretty switched on when it comes to lactation and breastfeeding support. Um, is that your experience professionally as well? 

[00:25:31] Jenny: We could do a whole podcast about that, Emma, in the beginning, they, they were very good. Um, it's the same, you get very mixed. Some people say, oh, do this.

Some people say, do that. Different positions and other rest of it. I suppose I was very lucky that I, I knew I'd already was a midwife and a lactation consultant, so I knew. Myself, what needed and what wasn't needed. So once we got past that initial, he got the formula and the feeding tube came out, and yeah, he just, he fed very well.

And, uh, I didn't have any pain or anything. I got the most terrible engorgement and I think because the blood pressure was still high and I still had so many other issues, it was incredibly painful. And I've just spent, I think about two days with ice packs on me. 

[00:26:16] Emma Pickett: Okay. Let's pause there for a minute, and I'm gonna, in a minute I'm gonna ask you about moving countries when you're a solo parent, but before we do that, let me ask you, Kat, tell me about, um, Ferguson's early breastfeeding experience and your birth.

[00:26:27] Kat: Well, um, my waters broke one day before my due date, and the waters were full of meconium. Is it meconium? 

[00:26:39] Emma Pickett: Meconium, yeah. Yep. 

[00:26:40] Kat: Yeah. Um, so, um, that was pretty scary. I immediately phoned triage, and they said, come straight in. So I went in and they said, yep, they, they did a sweep and found that I had not dilated or I was nowhere near contractions or anything like that.

And so they started talking about inducing me. And I was very anti inducing. I was trying my hardest not to avoid being in induced and like the fact that the, um, meconium was there. I knew that Fergus could be in distress. And I also knew that being induced could mean a two day labor. They said, we, we, we'll go and get a, um, a, a pess a pessary, I think it was, or, you know, we will start the induction process.

And I just went, no, no, no, no, no. I said, I, I'd like to talk about a C-section. I don't want him in there for two days if he's in distress. And they went, okay, we'll go and get the surgeon. And they went and got the doctor, and the doctor just listened to me and I said, I don't want to be in labor for two days.

If he's in distress, I want to get him out now. And she was like, okay, I think that's, um, I think that that's, we can do that. And then she'd read me a big list of all the things that can go wrong when you have a C-section. And I looked at my birthing partner, which was one of my, one of my best friends, and, and I said, oh my God, am I doing the right thing?

And she said, yes, do it. And so she kind of helped me with that decision after the, the fear set in and, and within like two hours, um, Fergus was out. So I think it's the best decision. I'm very happy with it. I had never even considered a C-section to be honest. I was all about natural birth and hypnobirthing.

But the thought that he could have been in distress in there, I know I would've been well monitored and, and all of that, but I just didn't want a long, drawn out, painful labor with no sleep. If he was upset and it, you know, I just, I was like, no. So, um, that's what happened. I had a C-section. He came out and the midwife immediately stuck him on my chest and he started feeding.

I mean, he just, he just did it easily, I would say. He just knew what to do and it was fine. But the compliKations did arise because like, I'm not a very patient person and I just wanted to go home. So I had one night in hospital, didn't get any sleep, and the next day, as soon as I took the Katheter out and I went to the toilet, I said, um, I want to go home now.

And they were like, you sure you don't want to stay in another night? I said, no, I really want to go home. So I went home the next day and I had a really difficult night 'cause he was newborn and was just complete, just wanted to be on me. I was just trying to figure everything out. But when the midwife came to check him, they realized he was doing this rapid breathing thing.

So his breaths, he had lots of breaths per minute. And so they readmitted us into hospital, but they didn't admit us into the maternity hospital. They admitted us to sick kids. So I'm, I had had a c-section like 48 hours before, and I end up in sick kids where there's no facilities for adults. 

[00:30:02] Emma Pickett: Oh golly.

That is not easy. Pre presumably also, no breastfeeding support or nothing. Anything else? 

[00:30:07] Kat: I mean, the, so I was also on morphine because I'd had surgery, so I was sweating a lot. There was no nowhere to wash. They tried to put me on a floor bed and I couldn't, I couldn't get up and sit down 'cause I'd had abdominal surgery and so they, they did relent and give me a, a high bed that I didn't have to go down onto the floor level for.

But there was, it was really difficult. Um, they, they also weren't feeding me because Fergus was the patient. So my mom had to come up twice a day with food. Oh God, this 

[00:30:36] Emma Pickett: sounds like a horror thing. 

[00:30:37] Kat: It was pretty bad. But, you know, I was just so worried about him. They thought that he might have an infection.

They were pumping him full of antibiotics, but they, they were testing for all infections, but they couldn't find one. And they were doing, they did x-rays. You know, he was two days old. I was just so glad that he was being treated and looked after, and they were watching him like a hawk. Like I can't fault the care that they gave him, but I was not their patient.

And I, one point I had like extreme chest pain. And I thought, I thought I was having a heart attack and I went to the desk and said something like, I've got this extreme pain in my chest. And, and, and, and they just said, well, you're gonna have to go to, to hospital, like a different building, a different hospital across town.

Oh my. And, and I said, but what about Fergus? Like he's. Three days old now. And they were like, we'll, watch him. And I'm just like, absolutely no way. So I went back to the bed and I just sat there holding my, clutching my chest and the lady next to me said, did you have a section? And I said, yes. And she said, well, sometimes air goes in and it can be really painful.

[00:31:41] Emma Pickett: This is another patient telling you this? 

[00:31:42] Kat: Yeah. A lady who's in with her 1-year-old. Yeah, in sick kids. She told me that and I was like, okay, well hopefully, hopefully I'm not gonna collapse then. Hopefully it's that and I'm not 

[00:31:51] Emma Pickett: gonna die, have a heart attack in this wrong hospital. Oh my goodness. You just, you're describing that very, uh, calmly Kat.

But that must have been a scary moment. And your, and your birth partner's pre presume you're not allowed to be in that space with you or your parents aren't allowed to be with you. They were 

[00:32:04] Kat: allowed to come for visiting hours, so they were allowed to come like twice a day. Um, and there was only one visitor 'cause it was, um, so this is, uh, September, 2020.

So it's in between the two COVID lockdowns. So the strict, they're very restricted. The number of, um, patients or so sorry, visitors, you're allowed on the wards. So mom was allowed to come. And the only way I could really, because I was counted as number one, mom would've been like a second person in the ward.

So if I was gonna spend any time with my mother, we had to go out the hospital. So we, we just went and sat in a park bench and I had some food and she saw Fergus for a bit. And then, you know, after an hour or so, we went back in. So we ended up being in hospital for three days. Three nights. And um, I think that even though they couldn't see anything on an x-ray, they suspect he had a tiny piece of meconium, had gone into his lungs and made this rapid breathing 'cause they couldn't find the infection.

So that, that, that was all very stressful. And then like I was coming to the point where, um, you have to have the stitches removed after, I think is it six days? The C-section stitches need to be removed. So it was like on the day they needed to be remo. I asked if they would do it in hospital and they said, no, you'll have to go to.

You'll have to go to another hospital, not sick kids, to take out stitches. And again, I was like, I'm not leaving Fergus. I'm not going to a different hospital. I'm staying here. So after I got home, my midwife came round within an hour, took the stitches out, was devastated that this had happened. She was just like, this is awful.

And um, yeah. So that was, so I was, I was fine. And so because of this rapid breathing and because he'd been like, flooded with, um, intravenous, um, antibiotics, he lost weight. So he was seven and a half pounds when he was born, and he dropped six and a half pounds. So that was, you know, a worry. And so when I was breastfeeding him, he was always a snacker.

He'd never fed for long periods of time. You know, I was reading things about breastfeeding and it would say, you know, try and get them to feed for like 15 minutes on each side. And I'm like, he would be like two or three minutes and then he would stop and I'd swap sides and two and then the neck within half an hour he'd want to feed again.

So he was definitely a little and often feeder, 

[00:34:23] Emma Pickett: which can be normal by the way. I mean, yeah, sorry to interrupt you, but UNICEF baby friendly assessment sheets took about five minutes. Can be a newborn feed. 

[00:34:31] Kat: Yeah. 

[00:34:32] Emma Pickett: Provided weight gains fine and everything else is looking good in terms of nappies, but obviously his start was a bit compliKated.

The start was compliKated. I can appreciate that. Yeah. And with that weight loss I can appreciate you didn't feel like you had the luxury of just waiting to see what happened? 

[00:34:45] Kat: Well, I was very anxious about it and the midwife suggested giving formula, um, just to get his weight up and I honestly, I was so worried he had skinny little legs and I was just like.

My baby needs to chunk up, like, you know, have images in your head of chunky, chubby babies. And my baby had skinny legs and was not feeding for 10 minutes on each side or 15 minutes on each side. So I was just worrying a lot. So, uh, we started giving him some formula and I would say my knowledge about breastfeeding was very, very basic.

I had done, um, watched a couple of videos about, about how it works, but like I, I didn't know much at all. I wish I had been more prepared. I wish I had done a course or something and I knew a bit more about cluster feeding and about different babies with different ways of feeding. So the midwife, she, you know, she just, she was just concerned about his, him not gaining weight fast.

And I think you have a two week period before you're discharged from the midwife and you then get looked after by the health visitor. And at that point compliKates things more. I, I wanted to go back to Aberdeen and live with my parents for the first two months. I was keen to, to kind of get up there and just chill.

Um, but he needed to start gaining weight before they would discharge him. So it was very, like, they came around every day to weigh him. And so every day I was just like, oh my God, oh my God, is he gonna have gained weight? You know? And I'm like, desperately feeding this baby, trying to get his weight up. It was, I mean, it was very, it was quite a lot of pressure on the weight gain, so you 

[00:36:28] Emma Pickett: couldn't, you couldn't get to your nest if you, like, you couldn't get to your support network until that had happened.

That's, that is an extra layer of pressure, isn't it? Yeah. So you are, you, you are on your own. Did you have friends visiting? Did anyone staying with you? 

[00:36:42] Kat: So my mom wasn't my breast. My, um, my birth partner. Um, but she was there. Um, I just didn't want her in the room when the birth was taking place because I was so, like, I'm always very aware of how other people are and I didn't want to be worried about my mom if something went wrong.

Yeah, I understand that. So I got a friend of my that, yeah, I got a friend who was very stoic, who doesn't get flapped easily, and she, I chose her 'cause she's very sensible. She's good in a crisis. And I, and I didn't wanna traumatize my mother. So mom was there, but she wasn't in the room for the birth, but she was there right afterwards.

Yeah. So mom was there and, you know, I was ready to give up breastfeeding and run to Tesco and get formula because they were saying, how much has he fed? How much has he gained? He needs to start gaining. And I, I just didn't think I was producing enough. I was so stressed about it. I, I was close to going, Tesco was across the street.

I was like. This close to running out the door and getting bottles and getting formula. But my mom said, just give it one more day. Just give it one more day and see. Oh yeah. And like if she hadn't been there, like I probably would've just given up. 

[00:37:58] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I can see you getting emotional, which I completely understand.

Tell me what's going through your mind when you're feeling that wave of emotion. 

[00:38:06] Kat: Well, I felt very strongly that I wanted to breastfeed him. Yeah. I just, I don't know. I think it was panic that he wasn't,

it wasn't gaining weight. 

[00:38:26] Emma Pickett: So you're remembering that those scary feelings of him not putting on enough weight or are you feeling, gosh, I say it came so close to not breastfeeding. What? What's in your head? 

[00:38:36] Kat: Oh, no. Yeah, I just, I felt very strongly that I wanted to breastfeed for so many reasons. Um, and like I nearly just gave up.

Like I see why so many people do. 'cause it's a lot. 

[00:38:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. And obviously when you are a solo mom, breastfeeding is a huge responsibility. You are entirely depend, you know, your child is entirely dependent on you for their, um, nutrition and growth and, and you know, people say, oh, you know, I'd love it so someone else can give a bottle.

But potentially that is an extra layer of responsibility, but also a gift I guess, as well because it means that you've got that, that connection and, and financially potentially it's easier and there's, yeah, there's your balancing. 

[00:39:21] Kat: It's so much more convenient. Um, in so many ways, breastfeeding and I, you know, there was a lot of reasons why I wanted to do it, but I dunno, it was also the pressure.

Of him gaining weight. I mean, you know, at some points I just didn't wanna open the door to the midwife 'cause I just didn't want him to go on the scales and to not have gained an ounce of weight, you know? So yeah, 

[00:39:48] Emma Pickett: a a daily weighing is intense. Yeah. That is a rare situation. That isn't something I can see.

Um, Jenny kind of shaking her head as well, that professionally that is not something that commonly happens. No. So I can imagine how incredibly intense that was. I 

[00:40:01] Kat: mean, the midwife was just concerned for him to start gaining. And I, I understand, I understand that. But in the end, she was satisfied that he was gaining weight and she knew things were going well.

It was just the first two weeks were like, pretty stressful. And then, um, I think I, I just, I was pretty ignorant about breastfeeding. I think. I think I didn't do my homework well enough. I just knew I wanted to do it. I knew the reasons why, but I didn't know about the mechanics. I think the mechanics, I think I could have, if somebody had sat down and said, cluster feeding is when your child acts like they're starving.

Um, and you might think they're starving 'cause they behave like they're starving, but they're not actually starving. They're just trying to get your supply up. It's nature, trying to get your supply up. Um, I just didn't know that I thought my baby was starving and I was again, almost about to reach for the formula because I was thinking, I'm not producing enough for him.

He's not getting enough from me. But that wasn't the case. Um, and I know that now, I actually, um, got some support from Che League, um, because it was, um, between, because there wasn't any group meetups because of COVID. Um, they did online Zoom kind of calls on a Friday night. I joined every Friday and I listened to everybody talking and I talked about my own kind of issues and worries, and that was very, very helpful.

Yeah, 

[00:41:31] Emma Pickett: brilliant. Yeah, they were, they were pioneers in doing that sort of Zoom support during COVID. All their meetings went straight to Zoom, so I'm really glad you got that support. 

[00:41:39] Kat: Yeah. 

[00:41:42] Emma Pickett: I want to tell you about my brand new book called The Story of Jesse's Milky. It's a picture book for two to six year olds, and I wanted to write a book that was about weaning, but also not about weaning, because breastfeeding journeys end in all sorts of different ways.

So Jesse's story is presented as having three possible endings. In one ending, his mom is pregnant and Jesse's going to share his milk with a new baby. In the second, his mom is getting really tired and it's time for some mother led weaning. And in the third, we see a self weaning journey as Jesse's attachment to breastfeeding gradually fades.

There are beautiful illustrations by the very talented Jojo Ford, and the feedback from parents so far has been so lovely and touching and I'm really excited to share the book with you. If you're interested in my other books for Older Children, I have the Breast book, which is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed.

And I also have two books about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding for a 10% discount on the last two. Go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code MMPE 10 Makes milk picket Emma 10. Let's come back to you, Jenny. You are about to migrate and live in a different country with a three and a half month old.

I can't imagine what it's like packing up a flat and moving country. I didn't him move until 

[00:43:13] Jenny: he was eight months. Um, the decision was made at that at Christmas when I came back when he was three and a half. Oh, I'm still reeling about this. The whole system Kat being just so wrong. Sorry. Yeah, it's just so wrong.

Well, that hospitals were new hospital sick kids. Why didn't they make it with space for mothers? So the why were you 

[00:43:33] Kat: It was before they moved me angry. It was before they moved. It was in the old building. They didn't have the facilities. Yeah. I think the facilities are better in the new sick kids. They have support for parents and, uh, like shower facilities and, um, I think they have better.

And after not letting 

[00:43:49] Jenny: you go to Aberdeen. This midwives in Aberdeen that they could have handed you over to that are equally competent? 

[00:43:56] Kat: Yeah. 

[00:43:57] Jenny: Honestly, I haven't gone back to work yet and it's, it's debatable whether I, but back to me. 

[00:44:05] Emma Pickett: Yeah, back to you. So you are, you are in Scotland. No, I appreciate you making those comments about Kat's story 'cause it's, uh, it is extraordinary to imagine that you say, I think I might be having a heart attack and someone says, oh, well you have to go to a different hospital.

It's incredible. It, it just sounds absolutely ludicrous, doesn't it? 

[00:44:21] Jenny: I can see it happening. Having worked in these places, I can see, oh no, we can't deal with that here. You've got, go across there. Just stop having a heart attack right now because you've gotta go over to that building few miles away. 

[00:44:32] Emma Pickett: Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I'm glad things might have, might have shifted and no one's, no one's having that experience today, right now and know 

[00:44:38] Jenny: is that wouldn't happen like that in Iceland. They would just the, they would say, come over here and lie on this bed and we'll sort you out. 

[00:44:48] Emma Pickett: Anyway, back to you. Back to your story.

Exactly. Your, your, tell me. So you had the challenges with the early engorgement. Any other particular breastfeeding challenges? 

[00:44:58] Jenny: He had, um, allergies, which I didn't, weren't actually diagnosed until he was six months. But I had my suspicions from when he was about a month old. He was just angry, unhappy, always got a lot of wind.

He had, um, slimy poos. He had, um, the witching hour that went from about four o'clock until about 10 o'clock. He was just inconsolable. He needed to be moving the entire time. He couldn't sit down. 

[00:45:26] Kat: He needed 

[00:45:27] Jenny: to be, he needed to be walking around with him. He would cry if you put him in the pram. And until you started marching with him, he was not a happy boy for himself.

[00:45:38] Kat: Is that colic? I don't actually know what colic is, but like quite a few babies have it. And that sounds like what you describe. Yeah. To be honest, 

[00:45:44] Emma Pickett: I don't think anyone knows exactly what colic is. Colic is a word that gets used to mean different things, and it doesn't really have a very clear definition.

I have a 

[00:45:55] Jenny: theory that awful lot of babies have allergies that they grow out of, which are never diagnosed, and, and that is what, what it is. That's my theory. 

[00:46:03] Emma Pickett: So colic. So one definition of colic is that it's inconsolable crying. Three hours in a row, three days in a row, three weeks in a row. Another definition of colic is it's something to do with muscular tension and gut muscles, you know, in, in spasm.

But yeah, it's not, it's not a super helpful term. But one thing that I'm just struck, struck with Jenny, is that you, you mentioned that inevitably in those first few months, friends didn't necessarily turn up in the way that you might have hoped. So you have a unsettled baby, crying, angry, these really difficult evenings, and you are the one who is on your own pacing backwards and forwards, maybe even with a sensation that something's not quite right.

How did you cope mentally in that, in that period of time? 

[00:46:50] Jenny: I did an awful lot of FaceTime with my parents and my sister. I did an awful lot of walking. We used to go out for walks twice a day and I'd sometimes even be walking seven or eight o'clock at night because it was just better to be out walking with them than have them screaming at home.

I was very lucky that, um, my sister and mom when they, when I took him out for a week when he was three weeks old and they'd filled my freezer with meals so I didn't have to think about food. I just had to, yeah, just had to put something in the microwave. So I was very careful about making sure that I had had something three times a day.

'cause I knew what I'm like without food. And yeah, I did an awful lot of walking and I just, and the other thing is you don't get time to stop and think about it because it's, and even now you're constantly running from one thing to the next. You always tidying the house or making a meal or changing a nap or bathing a child or trying to find time to go in the shower.

There's just, I think the not having time to stop and think, um, for me actually is quite mentally helpful in a way if I've got time to stop and think about it and I start thinking, oh my goodness, it's all going badly wrong and this is terrible. But there is, there was no time. And, and when he did stop, he just fell asleep.

He also went through a spell where he wouldn't sleep without a nipple in his mouth. And that was quite exhausting. Like he literally, we still do, um, contact naps mainly, but we did contact mapping. Even at nighttime, he would be attached and I would be asleep with my arm 

[00:48:34] Emma Pickett: like 

[00:48:34] Jenny: this 

[00:48:35] Emma Pickett: and 

[00:48:35] Jenny: wake up wondering what she's, 

[00:48:36] Emma Pickett: she's sticking her arm up in the air, by the way, in a superman pose.

Yeah. The art of sleeping while a baby's attached to you is an art that is definitely, if you couldn't make it happen, she was a 

[00:48:46] Jenny: major help. Actually, I didn't, um, I, my bed, I always thought I might go sleep, um, because it's quite common in Iceland. People do. Um, but my bed had a foam mattress and I realized fairly quickly when I got home that I couldn't go sleep with him on this foam mattress 'cause he just disappeared down under my side.

And then I went to stay with a friend in the north, which was good friends that, the auntie of the lady that had the baby by herself. Um, I went to stay there for a weekend when he was six weeks old and she just put her a sofa bed in the living room for us with, there was no cot or anything. So I just had him next to me and I slept so well compared to how I'd been sleeping.

I mean, he still fed multiple times, but it was so much easier than getting up and down. I was like, okay, I need to buy a bed. So that was another, another super solo mother choice. I walked him in his pram to the bed shop, told them I wanted to buy this bed and bed. I wanted it delivered, paid for it. And it came two days later and then I got rid of the other bed from my fourth floor flat.

[00:49:55] Emma Pickett: But you make it sound like you flung it 

[00:49:57] Jenny: out 

[00:49:57] Emma Pickett: the window. I wish it 

[00:49:58] Jenny: would've been 

[00:49:58] Emma Pickett: nice if you could 

[00:49:58] Jenny: I come get it. Actually, I, it was the heaviest thing I've ever known in my entire life. I well advertised that it needed three people to take it away. And they did. They came and took it away. Yeah, I built this other bed from scratch 'cause it arrived in a box for many.

You, 

[00:50:14] Emma Pickett: so there's, well, there's Thomas watching you while you're building a bed by itself. Child floor. Yeah. 

[00:50:18] Jenny: Yeah. Wow. Happy memories. And then we slept much better in our, in our brand new. Bed co-sleeping, and we've co-slept ever since. I would, I thoroughly recommend it for anybody, 

[00:50:30] Emma Pickett: especially for solo months.

[00:50:32] Jenny: I was 

[00:50:32] Emma Pickett: gonna say three, cheers for co-sleeping. It's amazing, isn't it? 

[00:50:36] Jenny: I loved your little analogy of the cluster of eating and your child's seeming starving, but he's just making more milk. And that's brilliant. But I also wonder for my own supply, if he hadn't been attached to me all the time that he was asleep, what would my supply have been?

That was possibly entirely necessary. Um, so I look back on it like that too. 

[00:50:55] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I think that's a helpful way to look at it. He was, he had a need. Yeah. Yeah. Just to come back to you, to you, ka we, time is whizzing by and I'm aware that people don't tend to listen to podcast episodes that are much longer than an hour.

Um, I'd love to jump to the end of your journey with Fergus because you aren't breastfeeding right now. And I'd love to hear about how you brought things to a close and what weaning was like as a solo mom. Tell us about the endings. 

[00:51:22] Kat: Um, absolutely. So, um, I would say the first six weeks were fairly challenging, but it was almost like at six weeks it just got really easy.

Basically we had, um, from six weeks till almost two, um, a kind of seamless, um, breastfeeding relationship. Um, by the time he was approaching too, it was really just, um, a nighttime feed to go to sleep. And I felt like it was time to it, the time was approaching, uh, I felt like it was a comfort thing and, um, he, I don't think I was producing much.

At all. 

[00:52:03] Emma Pickett: So that had reduced naturally you hadn't done anything, but he just naturally wound down to get to that, just that nighttime feed. It naturally 

[00:52:09] Kat: wound down. Yeah. He, um, he fed obviously a lot, um, in the first year, but he took to food weaning fairly enthusiastically and he ate very well. So he was full from food, so he wasn't interested in the boob unless he was tired or ill, and it was a comfort, a comfort thing.

So we went from kind of, um, we, we wound down to just one feed at nighttime. I was always very child led in my parenting for the first couple of years. It was always, um, you know, child-led when it came to, to, to, to naps, to sleeping. We co-slept as well. So I, I didn't kind of want him crying for, for the boob and not getting it.

'cause he, you know, that's just not the way I was doing things. So. I did enlist help to, um, to kind of, to wean him because I was at home at my parents in Aberdeen for the weekend. And I just said to my mom, would you mind if I just went and stayed with a friend tonight? And you put Fergus to bed? She had put him to bed many times, but he had had a feed from me as part of that.

So she knew what to do. And I abs she's got such a great relationship with him. Like, like you said, she was very hands-on and, and so I trusted her completely. So I just left the house and she said he was fine. He just went to sleep. He got a cu I lay with him and cuddled him and you know, he just went to sleep.

And, um, he woke up in the night and he came into my bed and so they co-slept together. 'cause I, you know, she knew what I was doing. And then I came back the next day, he was fine. And then that, that night I didn't, I didn't offer the boob. I didn't go in for the feed. And just, he didn't, he didn't seem to notice.

And then on the third night he was like, oh, you know, booby, booby? And he was like grabbing my top. And I said, no, sweetie, we're not doing a booby anymore. And he just went, okay. So he just accepted it. 

[00:54:16] Emma Pickett: It sounds like he was ready, wasn't it? I think was, I mean, anyone who, anyone who's listened to my podcast will know that I normally advoKate we do the weaning.

But I think you already had, in a way, you, it wasn't, you were, it wasn't like you disappeared for three nights and left him screaming his head off. He was obviously ready. And it was almost like you going away was you kind of drawing a line for yourself mm-hmm. Rather than him. 'cause he'd already got to that phase of being happy and accepting.

[00:54:39] Kat: And I, I had gradually it had gone from, you know, constantly feeding to, you know, when they're like over one, it's like maybe a morning, a middle of the day, and in, in an evening. It, then you break it down to two week, two feeds a day, and then for quite a locked a long time. It had just been this one feed at night and it was, uh, it was purely comfort.

There was no nutrition going in there, there was no need for, you know, the, the food element. And so, yeah, I thought it was time. He, he's a really confident kid. Um, and I just, I thought he would be fine and he, and he was so, yeah. Did 

[00:55:16] Emma Pickett: he keep asking, was after that, that first ask, did it keep happening? No, he never asked.

He, he, he was ready, wasn't he? I think he was, I mean, there are some people listening to this going, Hey, hang on. My two year old's feeding 10 times in 24 hours. Yeah. Um, my 2-year-old is very much using the breastfeeding nutrition and comfort. Yeah. Um, so, so you are describing a little bloke who was winding down For sure.

I think so. He was all, he was already at the end of a self weaning journey. I mean, I would almost describe that as self weaning, to be honest. The fact that he, he didn't even, he didn't even ask again. I mean, that's pretty key. 

[00:55:45] Kat: I wanted it to happen naturally, and I had been googling like natural weaning and people just said, when they're ready, they just won't be as interested or, you know, and I, and I kind of thought that was coming.

I just, yeah, I just want, didn't want to be there for one night to see what would happen. I think if he had made a big fuss, I would've continued, but because of his reaction, I was like, yeah, it's time. Um, and I'm very pleased it went that way. It kind of went with my whole ethos of, you know, not forcing things on him before he is ready and letting him take the lead in terms of things.

So yeah, I was very, very happy with, with the way things went, but I did have it, like, I was quite upset for maybe a month afterwards thinking, I'm never gonna do this again. Like, that's it. I don't have a baby anymore. I'm not gonna have another baby. And I cried quite a bit and I was thinking about ways to market.

You know, some people get jewelry made out of breast milk. Mm-hmm. And I thought, oh, do you know, maybe I should do that. But I, I settled on getting a tattoo, and it's a tattoo that kind of marks not just my breastfeeding journey, but it does have boobs in it. Um, oh, fabulous. But it's also, it's like a woman with a baby on her chest and it's like a, a plant, so it's like fertility and growth and motherhood.

So I got this tattoo and that was really what that was all about. Yeah. 

[00:57:03] Emma Pickett: I love, I love a breastfeeding tattoo. Got one right there. Yeah. Fantastic. Oh, maybe you can share a picture of that. 'cause I'd love to see it. I will, I'll send you one. Yeah. What, what a peaceful ending to a, to a breastfeeding journey.

And as you, as you say that, he definitely sounded ready for sure. Yeah. What, what are your feelings about your breastfeeding journey? Jenny? Have you got any plans as to how things will come to an end? No, not really. That sounds like a 

[00:57:25] Jenny: dream. Thomas, um, I think would feed whenever he could possibly have the opportunity still.

He would go from side to side to side to side to side to side for hours. But we started doing the counting down and he does count, countdown. We've got it down to, he feeds in the morning when he wakes up. He feeds a couple of times through the night, sometimes only once. And he feeds for his nap in the afternoon and usually when he wakes up from his nap and then, um, he feeds to go to sleep.

So we're still feeding quite a bit. And he is not the best eater. And I think he does still get quite a bit of. Calories from it. But the other day, last week we had a day where he didn't feed all day. He was, um, we were very busy and he had his nap in the car and he didn't ask for it all day. And, uh, I was quite surprised.

And also I was quite surprised when my own reaction, 'cause I didn't feel at all like I had missed it. I was just like, oh, that's quite a relief. Mm-hmm. So I was like, oh, maybe I'm more ready than this. And then last night actually, um, he woke up in the night and uh, I got up and went to the lu and came back again and he had half fallen asleep and instead of latching back on, he was quite happy with a cuddle.

So that was, that's new. So things are changing. Um, and the other thing that's changed is I've had horrible migraines for about, from about a month ago, which I think I probably relate to my cycle. And, uh, I do wonder if that's perhaps my body saying. Perhaps you're a bit more tired than you need to be. 

[00:59:04] Kat: It can be hormonal, can't 

[00:59:05] Jenny: it?

Yeah. You're hormones are readjusting. It might be hormonal with the Yeah, with the, yeah. The feeding decreasing slightly. So yeah, we're in a transition, definitely the start of something, but I knew, I definitely wanted to feed until he was two, like the World Health Organization guidelines. And I would like it to be as natural as possible.

I can't keep up with as much as Thomas wants already. He, he would, he would quite happily be stuck to me for the entire evening, every time I sit down. So we're already, it's already me saying, no, not just now. And he sometimes he's quite happy with it. Sometimes he doesn't get a bit upset. So yeah, I had kind of wanted to do it from, to keep it as much him leading it as possible, but it's already not feasible so.

Yeah, we'll see how it goes. I don't know where we, where we will end it. And I could see the ending process taking a very long time, even up to another year. Um, I'm in no rush to stop. Um, I would quite like to feel a bit healthier. 

[01:00:08] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Keeping things open sounds like a way forward. Yeah. And you can absolutely make changes without having to end breastfeeding if you feel like you need to, to reduce or put some boundaries in place.

It doesn't have to mean the complete end. Um, yeah. Thank you so much both of you for sharing your stories today. I, I just wanted to ask you a quick question about sort of other people's prejudices. Have you come across people who've struggled with hearing about your decision or do you feel we're in a quite a positive place at the moment?

I guess most, now you're both Scotland based. Do you think people are sort of supportive of solo motherhood or are you coming across still people kind of wrinkling their nose and, and wondering what you're up to? 

[01:00:47] Kat: Not once, not never. I've never heard anything negative about. I mean, I, I actually, I remember, um, when I had to tell my boss when I was 12 weeks, or 20 weeks, or whenever you tell your boss, uh, my boss is, um, he's one of the most senior Masons in Scotland.

He's very religious. Um, he's former military. Um, you know, and he, he's, you know, he's, he's that guy. And I was thinking, oh my Lord, I'm gonna have to tell this guy that I have made the decision to become a solo mum by choice. I've, you know, gone down the sperm donor route, and he was so supportive of me. He said, I'm so happy for you.

I'm so proud of you. And, um, oh, bless him. Yeah. You just don't know. 

[01:01:38] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Oh, I'm, that is exactly what you deserve. I'm so glad that's the case. No one's ever said anything. I mean, anyone prejudice, I mean, what that, you know, I mean, what can you possibly say? It's insane. But people do have stupid prejudices sometimes.

[01:01:48] Jenny: I think people sometimes feel sorry for me that, um, some man's gone up and done the dirty on me and I don't correct them, 

[01:01:56] Kat: don't you? Because I, I definitely correct people. I sh I shout it from the rooftops. 'cause you know, I, someone said to me once, and this is before when I was trying to make the decision, like, you need to own this.

If you have any shame or guilt, absolutely. Then your child will pick up on it. So like, I'm like, do you know what he's donor conceived? Yeah. And I'm a solo mum by choice. This is our life. And, um, I'm, I'm very proud of what I've done and almost like aggressively proud of what I've done because I don't want anyone thinking that Fergus was a mistake or, you know, anything like that.

So yeah, I'm quite vocal about it. 

[01:02:35] Emma Pickett: I love Aggressively proud. Yeah, that's a great phrase. I guess focus is now getting to the age where you're starting to have conversations with him and he's starting to have questions. Do you have particular phrases that you're using with him and language that you're using or books that you use with him?

[01:02:49] Kat: Yeah, we've talked about it from day dot, but I think a lot of it was to do with me getting familiar with talking about it. But, um, we say we don't have a daddy in our house because, um, we do talk about his genetic father, like his genetic father is in Denmark. Is is Danish. And we will meet him one day if Fergus wants to.

It is his decision when he's 16. Um, but because we've got a pod of, um, 12 half siblings, you know, he's like, you know, he's like, what's a half sister? I'm like, well, because you know your half sister, her mommy used the same donor. You've got the same genetic father. So she did the same as, as I did. So we were, we have to use the term, this terminology 'cause it's, yeah, just through trial and error is confusing to not use the term father because Yeah, he, he does have a father.

His father is, my donor is Ferguson's genetic father. Um, yeah, because I've heard genetic donor conceived people saying, of course I've got a father. Like I'm not an alien beamed down from a different planet. You know, I was conceived with a male and a female, you know, gat I do have a father. So because I did some work listening to the voices of donor conceived people, I try and use the language that they prefer, which is talking about genetic father, um, and not donor.

And also not just pretending that there is no father. I think that's unhealthy as well. So yeah, we talk about this stuff. He knows the terms, he parrots them. I don't think he quite gets it yet, but he will, he will parrot it back to other people. So I, um, at some point I think he'll click, but he's, yeah, he's about to turn five.

Um, he does ask questions, but he's not that interested. Like some in our pod there's some little girls who are way more interested and are asking a lot of questions about the donor, whereas Fergus just accepts what I say and then doesn't talk about it for another six months. So I'm sure we'll get there, but I'm, 

[01:04:55] Emma Pickett: yeah, it's sinking in, isn't it?

A different, in different ways, in different stages, definitely. Um, what, what, what are your plans, Jenny? Much the same, I suppose. Yeah. So, so Kat's gone down the road of finding the half siblings. Is that something that has opened as a possibility for you as well? 

[01:05:12] Jenny: I haven't, no, I haven't done that. Um, there's part of me that's incredibly nosy and a little bit ish, and I worry that if I open that door, I might become quite obsessive about it.

So I'm gonna really try not to touch it and leave it for him if he wants to. 'cause um, 

[01:05:29] Emma Pickett: yeah, 

[01:05:30] Jenny: there's, the donor is actually Icelandic and there was only a few Icelandic ones and he was the only one that was able to contact later on if the child wants to and in ice them, they were only able to be used for two families.

Um, so he could, well have another donor family in Iceland and the guy talks about on his little, um, biography that he wants to move back to Iceland and have his own kids. And there's no way of knowing on the European sperm bank how long ago it was that they made this bar so the guy could well be back in Iceland now.

So there's every likelihood that Thomas does have cousins, most definitely, but, um, possibly half brothers and sisters in Iceland too, which when I lived there I was quite, um, aware of and knew that I had to talk to him about it. And. He when he gets older. Definitely. Um, so it's quite strange being back in the UK knowing that it's a much, much bigger pool and the chances of him bumping into these people are much less.

But the other thing with him being Icelandic, because it's such a small place and it's like a big village, everybody knows everybody's friend, if you like, is we know each other. That I was telling my friend about this donor that the things that I knew about him, and she said, Jenny, you know, that we could find out who he is, just with a few phone calls and my blood went cold.

I was like, I hadn't really thought about that. Because they tell you about what his, what his, um, parents do for a living and what his grandmother was an actress and things like that. And she's like, oh gosh, that is very Googleable, isn't it? Who 

[01:07:07] Emma Pickett: he is. I can appreciate you've managed to switch off this.

Your stalk has tendencies to not do that. So Yeah, it's 

[01:07:11] Jenny: just, I had weak moments, especially when I was, um, breastfeeding and you know, the four o'clock Googling hours of the sort of four or five months when you're just sat on your phone. Um, and I, yeah, I have to try, I had to try quite hard to resist. So yeah, I'm just gonna close all of that off, I think.

And if he shows an interest later on, then we'll do the research. But for, yeah, it's for him, not for me. I feel. 

[01:07:36] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that makes sense. Let him take the lead. Yeah. Can I ask you about recommendations for favorite resources? If someone is going on this journey and they'll listening to this, I'm sure they'll find groups and things, but what are some of your favorite books or favorite resources?

Let's start with you, Kat. 

[01:07:51] Kat: I might have to send you them. 'cause I, it was, we're talking six years ago now. 

[01:07:56] Emma Pickett: Okay, well, yeah, why don't you send me some links and we can put, we can put them, I'll put them in the show notes. 

[01:08:02] Kat: There was two podcasts I listened to. But I can't, I can't remember the names of them.

[01:08:07] Emma Pickett: Don't worry. I can't imagine why you, you've got other things you need to worry about and other things in your life. That's fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. So if you send them to me, I will pop them in the show notes for this episode. So 

[01:08:16] Kat: there was definitely one book and two podcasts that I can send you. Okay. That were, um, brilliant.

Yeah. 

[01:08:21] Emma Pickett: And you've got a Facebook group, is that right? Or, or an online group? 

[01:08:25] Kat: No, it's a, it's a WhatsApp group. For WhatsApp group. Okay. Yeah. So there's a, there's a, there's a woman who does, um, in fact definitely, definitely put this in. It's, um, the Stor and I, and she's, um, this woman called Mel, who is a solo mum by choice.

She, she started off doing, um, courses for people who were thinking about becoming solo moms by choice. And then it kind of turned into, um, PO podcast. And then the podcast, um, became two series, then three series. And it's really interesting. So the Stork and I is a great resource. Okay. But basically she created offshoot groups in.

The place in all the different places in the uk and there was a Scotland group for the Stork and I, and um, I was part of that. I joined it when Fergus was about one, but there are people there who are trying and thinking as well. And then we basically created an offshoot of that for Edinburgh in the east.

And that's a very, a group that's very focused on meeting up in person. So it's more local and we want our children to grow up with other donor conceived children. So I've made a lot of very good friends. There's about 80 of us and it goes from Fife, like right down to um, kind of East Lian, um, Midlothian and Edinburgh City.

And because we meet up every month or so, um, we've become really good friends. We go on a camping trip once a year. We, we've made some very good friends in that group. And Fergus is gonna have a wealth of donor conceived children around him when he's growing up. So he's not gonna feel like he's the only one.

Um, that was the point of creating this group that was local. 

[01:10:03] Emma Pickett: Okay. Thank you very much for sharing that. Jenny. What's your favorite, what are your favorite resources? What would you recommend? I don't have 

[01:10:09] Jenny: anything, I'm afraid. Um, there was a few Icelandic books that I was shown at the very beginning, but they're not much Choose, join the board.

I need to join this WhatsApp group and get, get Kat's um, Kat's advice on this. Yeah, no, I, I need to get onto it. I need to do, 'cause I have the similar visions that I'm meeting other kids. And in Iceland it was, um, I didn't even really think about it because I knew that there would be a couple in every class that he, he was in.

I knew that he wouldn't be ever. Alone, although I have met a few in south already, so that's quite nicely surprising for me. I found a few don conceived kids. 

[01:10:44] Kat: I mean, that's all you need. A few that you get on with, you get on with the moms and your, your boy gets on with them. I mean, you only need a few to make him feel like he is not an anomaly.

Yeah, yeah, 

[01:10:55] Emma Pickett: yeah. I don't think everyone needs 80, Jenny. Don't worry. I don't think that's the requirement. Can you 

[01:11:00] Kat: imagine the dynamics of a group of 80 very, um, passionate, like, um, confident. Impressive women. Like it's, it's, I know we 

[01:11:09] Jenny: can be a bit much, 

[01:11:11] Emma Pickett: I mean, I mean, I think in the absolute best way, I mean, solo moms don't mess around.

No. Do they, they know what they, they know what they need in their life and they take it with both hands and they make it happen. I know. And they rule the universe. I, you know, I'll hand, I'd be happy to hand over to you, and I wish we did that just makes solo mums rule the world. I think you're fantastic.

Thank you. Um, yeah, just, just making, making dreams happen and being confident enough to do that and believing that that's, that's what you're entitled to do. And you, 'cause you're Absolutely, that 

[01:11:40] Jenny: would be my advice to anybody that's considering even as, even as in younger, in your twenties, I would just say, just go for it because, um, you're not gonna regret it.

And even if you do meet Prince Charming later on, if he is Prince Charming, it's not gonna worry him that you've got a donor conceived kid already. 

[01:11:57] Kat: Yeah. One of the podcasts that I, that I listened to there was about, I don't know, 10 episodes. It was called Motherhood Reimagined. And um, at the end she asked the same question to everyone who came on the podcast and it was like, what would you do differently?

And they all said, the only thing I do differently is that I'd have done it sooner. Sooner. Yeah. That is the only thing. So I say that to anyone who ask, 'cause I have people coming up and asking me for advice and asking me about my journey. And I, and I'm always just like, the only thing that you're ever gonna regret is not starting this sooner.

Yeah. 

[01:12:31] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That's a great place to end. Thank you so much both of you. I'm really grateful for your time. Um, I think you're both are fantastic. Thank you. I think you have very lucky little boys.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well, get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.