Jill's story - struggling to conceive while breastfeeding

 This week I’m talking to Jill Nason from Wicklow, Ireland, who has racked up nearly every parenting experience, or so it seems!

Jill discusses her first child, Clodagh's, premature birth, NICU stay, and successful breastfeeding journey. With her second child, Cian, she underwent a home birth but faced challenges with sleep training and medical issues. For her third child Seán, a c-section was necessary due to prior medical complications, and she experienced reflux issues. Jill reflects on her struggles with wanting to conceive a fourth child while breastfeeding and how modifying her feeding schedule meant she finally achieved pregnancy while continuing to breastfeed her third child. 

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

Resources mentioned - 

Carol Smyth IBCLC for fertility and breastfeeding https://www.carolsmyth.co.uk/breastfeeding-resources/posts/2017/june/breastfeeding-fertility-and-subfertility-1/

Breastfeeding support in Ireland https://www.cuidiu.ie/

@‌lyndsey_hookway for sleep information

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. We are gonna be talking to Jill, Jill Mason from Wicklow in Ireland, and she's a mother of three.

We're going to be talking about lots of different aspects of her parenting journey and her breastfeeding and weaning journeys. But as you'll have seen from the title of the episode, we're also gonna be touching on that really difficult space where you don't want to give up breastfeeding, but you want to maximize your fertility and conceive again.

And how do you make those decisions about what to prioritize when you're in that, in that space. So we'll be touching on that, and I'm very grateful to Jill for, for joining me to share that, that really personal side of her story. Thanks for joining me today, Jill. Thanks. 

[00:01:24] Jill: Thanks for having me. 

[00:01:25] Emma Pickett: You're very welcome.

Let's just talk about your family. So you've got three kids. Tell me who everybody is. Tell me how old everybody is. 

[00:01:31] Jill: So my eldest is Clodagh, she's seven, and then I have Cian who is four. Uh, he'll be five next month. Yeah. And then Seán, um, will be two at the end of this month. 

[00:01:43] Emma Pickett: Okay. And let's start with the basics.

How long did you breastfeed everybody for? 

[00:01:49] Jill: Uh, shorter than I wanted for the first two, so about 15 months for Clodagh and Cian. Seán, I'm still feeding them, still breastfeeding. 

[00:01:56] Emma Pickett: Okay. And as we'll as we'll talk about your journeys with Clodagh and, and Cian. Were cut a little bit short because you wanted to conceive again.

That's right. And that's something that was obviously a difficult place to be, and we'll talk about that in a second. But before we talk about that, let's talk about some of your breastfeeding journeys that you've had. You've got three different ones, three different ones to compare, and you had different births with everybody, didn't you?

Yeah. Different, very different birth. What was the kind of vari, what kind of birth did you have? What was your variation? 

[00:02:24] Jill: Um, well, Claude, I was born seven weeks early. Um, the pregnancy was like, took me along completely. Normally had no, uh, reason to think anything wasn't, you know, going. Right. Um, and then I was on a trip home to Ireland.

I was living in Canada at the time, and while I was on a trip home to Ireland, she decided to make an early arrival. So, um, yeah, she was born. Um, I'd been up at a wedding in Donegal and she arrived, uh, yeah, after me being at the wedding. 

[00:02:52] Emma Pickett: Wow. Okay. So you would, you'd flown over for the wedding thinking, okay, I'm in the range to fly and it should all be fine.

No risk, no concerns. And she was determined to be born on Irish soil by the sounds of it. Yeah. She likes the 

[00:03:04] Jill: sense of Ireland. And 

[00:03:06] Emma Pickett: did, did that, did that mean you had, you had a partner, you had a job, you had all your sort of support networks all back in Canada? 

[00:03:12] Jill: Yeah. Everything was in, but presumably 

[00:03:14] Emma Pickett: you had some family in Ireland and someone to look after you.

[00:03:17] Jill: Yeah, so it actually all worked out really, really nicely. Um, my husband managed to get back on time from when my waters broke to when she was actually born, was almost 48 hours. So he did manage to make it back for the birth. And then we stayed up in Donegal for five nights. She was in nicu. Then we got moved to Dublin where our families are and we stayed in Dublin for nearly three months while we got her passport sorted and got her, um, just medically.

Medically okayed to fly back. So, um, yeah, we had family. It all worked out really well. Wow. Wow. She didn't look backwards once she was, she was a flyer. 

[00:03:51] Emma Pickett: Gosh, what an experience that must have been. I mean, that's tough to give birth early in any situation, but I'm so lucky you had family. Imagine if you, you'd come for some, you know, friend of a friend's wedding or, you know, I know you didn't have that support network.

Wow. And then you flew back with her when she was three months old. 

[00:04:08] Jill: Yeah, 

[00:04:09] Emma Pickett: yeah, that's right. Okay. Wow. Gosh. So she was, she was physically okay. Did she have any many ongoing complications? What's the situation now with her health? She 

[00:04:19] Jill: was, no, no, not a thing. Um, all that she needed at the time was, um, some fattening up.

She, and she needed, she had a little bit of jaundice, so she spent a little bit of time in an incubator. But other than that, um. Yeah, initially a few medications that would be normal for a, a premature baby. But, um, after that, really there was nothing. It was just getting her birth weight up or, sorry, not getting her birth weight up.

Getting her weight up, 

[00:04:44] Emma Pickett: yeah. And what was her feeding experience like? Did you know that you wanted to breastfeed? What were your feelings around breastfeeding before you had Clodagh? 

[00:04:51] Jill: It's funny, I really hadn't thought about it much. Um, I was just about to do my prenatal course, like when I got back to Canada, the plan was to start my course.

So I hadn't done a whole lot of thought about it. I was not breastfed. And my mum tried briefly with my eldest brother and she got mastitis. Uh, she got quite sick with mastitis and, and that was the end of that. And I really didn't have any other breastfeeding people in my life. I hadn't seen it, hadn't experienced it, but for some reason, when she was born, I kind of didn't even think that I wouldn't, I just.

Yeah, I, I just knew that I was going to then, um, and luckily for me, my colostrum came in immediately. Obviously for a, a Premi baby, the, the colostrum is so important for them, and I was really, really lucky that I was handed a pump. I, I now know that maybe it wasn't best practice away. I harvested, um, the colostrum.

Initially I was just handed a pump. The next day I was told, oh no, wait 12 hours, wait till tomorrow, it's fine. And just handed me like a double pump and off you go. Um, but luckily I got plenty of colostrum. So initially she was tube fed, and then bit by bit we were putting her to the breast, but really it was quite a while before she was actually getting any milk from the breast.

Then we transitioned from the tube feeding to bottle feeding express milk. 

[00:06:09] Emma Pickett: Okay. So when you say tube feeding, you mean NG tube in Uh, yeah, 

[00:06:13] Jill: oral gastric. So it was through her mouth and Diane. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:06:17] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean the, the recommendation as far as I'm aware, I'm not sure if it's different in Ireland, but if you give birth prematurely, ideally you are pumping within six hours.

Mm-hmm. I now know that, and if you are, um, producing colostrum, even then, you know, the, the double electric pump is what we need to get things going and get your volume going. Some people talk about maybe hand expressing first and then using the pump just so you don't lose the colostrum that you have.

But we, you know, getting, but if you wait, you know, 12 hours is not the end of the world. Some people obviously give birth and then unwell themselves and they can't necessarily get started straight away. So it sounds like you were pumping pretty quickly and obviously the, you know, it worked out well in terms of your, your breastfeeding outcomes.

And how old was she when she first got to the breast and was feeling directly on the breast? Um, 

[00:07:03] Jill: she was about six weeks. I, 'cause I remember being told she'd be, at least at her, you know, at least her birth, uh, due date before she would be doing that. And she was a little bit ahead of that. So I was absolutely delighted.

Yeah. So there was a period of the triple feeding and it was quite scheduled. It was like coming from NICU again. Now I know that, uh, well, yeah, it says for NICU baby it is the norm. Um, and I didn't know anything other than scheduled feeding for a newborn because it was just what we did from nicu. So it was every four hours feeding.

Then, um, pumping sleep for a while and then back, you know, cycle on repeat. 

[00:07:40] Emma Pickett: And where were you sleeping? Were you able to stay in the hospital with her? You were pretty quickly at the hospital. Were you, where were you staying? What was that journey like? 

[00:07:49] Jill: Uh, for the first four nights I was in the hospital, but on a different, you know, I was on a ward, it was close, so I could pop into her plenty.

But, um, they were quite encouraging to like, go get your rest. Um, and then her last night in Dun Hall, I was in A, b and b. And then once she was back in Dublin, I was at home at my parents' house. So that was hard because from the evening until the morning I wasn't seeing her. 

[00:08:12] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I can imagine. There's just that deep, deep feeling of where is she and how far away is she?

And yeah. Is someone feeding her? And Yeah. Not, yeah, easy. So that, that trip from Donal to Dublin, that was in an ambulance, was it? Mm-hmm. 

[00:08:26] Jill: Yeah. And we were in the car behind. 

[00:08:28] Emma Pickett: Oof. 

[00:08:28] Jill: God, there's, there's lots of things that I think if she wasn't my first, I would've struggled a lot more than I did. But it didn't seem that strange to me.

Like even when she was in nicu now, I think, you know, I know all about kangaroo care and I would be probably much more insistent on having her close to me more. But again, I think I just didn't know any different and I, and, and because she was doing so well, I think I just accepted and I rolled with it all.

Um, but there was a lot of time her, of her being physically separate from me. Um, and yeah, like I say, all those nights where I wasn't with her, so, yeah. But at the time, yeah, I suppose I just accepted it. 

[00:09:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, I guess in a way I'm glad it's that way round. Yeah. I'm glad that you, that was your normal and it felt okay.

And that that's as far as you're concerned. You were very trusting in the system, which is, I guess, better than feeling that sense of anguish and, and desperation. Mm-hmm. How does it work with the health system in Ireland? Because you were a visitor, did you have to, I mean, is it, it's not an NHS system, so were you having to pay strange fees and things?

How did it work? No, 

[00:09:33] Jill: uh, luckily, so it's a health service executive here at the HSC, and luckily, uh, because I'm an Irish citizen, I was just treated as if. As if some, I was currently living here. Um, so it was all free. It was all covered. Okay. We were half thinking, are we gonna get a strange pill? But no, we didn't.

[00:09:50] Emma Pickett: Good. And, and how did it feel doing that flight back? So you were leaving behind everything that was normal for you, all the, the health systems that you knew on that plane with her and a little Diddy, little car seat, and she's presumably still not super big even at three months. How did, how did going home feel and how did those first few days back in Canada feel?

[00:10:08] Jill: Um, it was amazing. I think we were, we'd had, we'd really enjoyed our time in Ireland and I think we were just so confident that she was well. Like she, like I said, she hadn't been a sick baby and by three months she actually was surprisingly chubby. She actually ended up being the chubbiest of all my babies, which was gorgeous.

Um, so she was, yeah, she didn't feel tiny to us anymore. We were so used to her, so we felt confident and yeah, just felt really good to get into our own space then. And we'd only just moved into a new apartment just before. Went to Ireland on that trip. So everything was new. We were in a new apartment and kind of we're settling into our new life.

So it was actually lovely. 

[00:10:46] Emma Pickett: And she was now breastfeeding directly. Mm-hmm. Presumably saying goodbye to the triple feeding by this point. Mm-hmm. How did her breastfeeding sort of continue? She's just such an easy child. She, 

[00:10:56] Jill: everything went, she's like a unicorn baby, but I look back, um, how did it all go? I, yeah, like, I, I was trying to remember when we went from that kind of scheduled feeding to just responsive feeding and I can't remember exactly when it happened, but we didn't have a nap schedule.

I know that it was all very easy and we just kind of took it as we came. And she did, just before we left Ireland, I was having some nipple pain. So, um, we ended up having a tongue tie, uh, revision done. Um, and it, her feet, it hadn't been affecting her feeding, but it had been affecting me. Um, and it did actually help.

So that was the only kind of little hiccup in terms of the feeding. Then she just carried on. She loved it and she was like I said, a lovely chubby, gorgeous baby. And yeah, there weren't really issues in that regard, 

[00:11:45] Emma Pickett: Jill. You were so frigging laid back. It's amazing. I, I went to Ireland for a wedding, gave birth, had to stay here, had to fly back.

Oh yeah. Had a tongue tie. Little hiccup, she says. Um, yeah, I was in agony. Little hiccup. Um, then we moved to an apartment we had never been to before. I mean, wow. You, you are obviously a person who's really good at just accepting what's happening in your environment and rolling with it. And I'm not saying it was super easy 'cause I imagine it wasn't for moments.

I mean, it's never easy to have a baby and in NICU and, and you know, we watching a tube going down their throat. It's not easy for anybody, but mm-hmm. You were obviously someone who was really able just to accept where you were in life and breastfeeding continued with Clara. And then you got to a point where you realized you wanted to extend your family.

Mm-hmm. Tell me a little bit about. How that crept up on you. Were you, did you always know you wanted a larger family? What were, what were your thinking around your planning for your family? 

[00:12:39] Jill: Yeah, I think my husband and I always had four in our head for no particular reason. We just, but yeah, a big, big-ish family was definitely what we were thinking.

Um, and you know, I says what age is I then I, I was only early thirties then, but I, you know, you kind of get this time clock in your head. And I had in my head, I went to a second by the time I was two, um, you know, naively thinking I had more control than, than I did. Um, but I think by the time she was about 12 months before that, I kept thinking, oh, maybe I'm pregnant.

Oh, I'm feeling really tired. Maybe I'm pregnant. Even though I had had no cycle, I just kept tricking myself into thinking maybe it's just gonna happen. But then, yeah, I think by about 12 months I started to see peers getting their cycles back. And it's just from doing a little bit of dangerous Googling, just seeing like, you know, many people get it back by six months and starting, which again, I now know.

That's completely skewed by many things. Um, but what I was seeing, I, it was starting to creep into my head like, oh, this is, I'm quite late getting my period back and what can I do? 

[00:13:41] Emma Pickett: I mean, I'm gonna p pause there for a moment. I mean, not having a period back at 12 months when you're breastfeeding isn't late.

[00:13:48] Jill: No, I know that now. But at that time it felt like it was for you. Mm-hmm. Just 'cause you watched other people. 

[00:13:53] Emma Pickett: Exactly. I mean, the average, I mean, you've probably done as much reading around this as, as anyone else, but my understanding is the average is around about 14 months for people who are fully breastfeeding.

Mm-hmm. But you obviously wanted to extend your family, and if you're gonna get to four, there's, you know, two more pregnancies after that. Mm-hmm. What were her breastfeeding patterns like around the time that she was sort of 12, 13 months old? 

[00:14:13] Jill: Um, by then we were doing kind of in the morning before nap, after nap, before nap, after nap, before bed.

And then, uh, at that stage, probably once overnight at that stage. And then I, we dropped the night, actually, no. Do you know what, by one she'd actually, we'd stopped the night feed. Um, again, parenting differently now to what I would've then, or parenting different than to what I would now. I cons had a sleep consultant when she was about eight or nine months, and, um, through her we dropped one.

She used to be feeling two or three times a night. We dropped it to one, and then by the time she was less than a year, we had to drop that completely. Um, so like I say, not something I would do now, but, um, that's what I did then. 

[00:14:57] Emma Pickett: Okay. Tell us a bit more about, about why you feel you wouldn't do that again.

Just, I mean, was that, did that involve leaving her to cry? What was the bit mm-hmm. 

[00:15:06] Jill: Yeah. No, with her, again, like I say, she was so easy that it, there was, the first night I did it, I think she cried for seven minutes. This was to get her to sleep. And I remember just sitting, crying myself, listening to her, and then she slept.

And then it, it really was quite quickly that her sleep, and she needed, she was able to, sorry, all these words, I'm like, these are not words I'd use now. Um, but she was sleeping more solidly without us needing to help her, I suppose. And it felt easy and she was still waking up happy and that all felt okay.

But on my next, my well with key, and then we did it again using the same sleep consultant, she was also a midwife and a nurse, and a lactation consultant. Um, so I, I says, trusted her and I didn't know about you, and I didn't know about Lindsay Hway. And I suppose just the influences that I was hearing, I felt like, you know, there's a problem that that was not really a problem.

So we did the sleep training with him, and it was just horrendous. It was just awful. And it didn't suit him, and it wasn't the right thing to do. There was a lot of crying. And there's a lot of me questioning myself, but then thinking, no, no, the professionals know better and I still hold so much guilt about that.

I really, really wish I didn't do it. Um, and it creeps up me a lot now, any little thing with him, I look back, oh, 

[00:16:29] Emma Pickett: I can see you even getting teary now. And he's peaceful. Yeah. Gosh, that's that. That's the big feelings, aren't they? I am so sorry that you're holding onto that. If you could go back and talk to yourself in that moment, what would you say to you, to Jill of four years ago, three years ago?

[00:16:44] Jill: That there's nothing wrong with him and that I probably just needed more support in terms of catching up on sleep in other ways. Um, and just that he needed to be held more. But then my husband reminds me, he was like, chill. He lived in a sling during the day. You held him so much and you gave him all the things that you give him the others.

But it was, um, yeah, the nighttime, just trying to force him to sleep independently. It was just, but what would I say now? Um, try co-sleeping and just, there's nothing wrong with him. And, um, like I say, I probably just needed more support in terms of yeah, getting sleep myself. 

[00:17:23] Emma Pickett: How old was he when you were doing this?

[00:17:26] Jill: Uh, we started when he was only about five months, and then it kind of, we'd start and stop and start and stop for months and months. 

[00:17:33] Emma Pickett: Because 

[00:17:33] Jill: it wasn't working. 

[00:17:34] Emma Pickett: Presumably. 'cause it wasn't working. Exactly. 'cause he wasn't ready. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, I guess, you know, let's, let's look back and say you instinctively knew when to stop.

I mean, that's, that's positive, isn't it? You knew not to keep pushing when it wasn't working for him. That's, that's something I'm 

[00:17:48] Jill: not sure. I wish I knew a lot sooner, I suppose. But I also look back, you know, uh, we had just moved home from Canada when he was six weeks old. Uh, it was straight into COVID lockdowns and things.

And I had medical issues going on at the time that were really affecting me emotionally and, um, and, uh, mentally. So I suppose I, I tried to forgive myself in a way with, with all of that was going on as well. But, um, certainly I, I just wish that I had view of Lindsay Hway and yourself and had had those kind of influences in my ear as opposed to what I did have.

And I look around now and have to remind myself that still there's. Because I am so much more in the breastfeeding world now, um, and more like-minded people. I have to remind myself that there's still so, so many parents out there who are not getting those kind of, um, positive influences and voices reminding them that, that, you know, there is nothing wrong with the baby and you need more support.

Yeah. There's a lot of people not getting that. 

[00:18:46] Emma Pickett: I mean, I bet this experience makes you really valuable. I know you're training to be a breastfeeding counselor. I, I bet that this experience makes you really valuable in working with other parents because you are, I hope so. You've got this empathy for how it feels in that moment and how it feels to be desperate and, you know, not have the support and look for answers and, and, um, you know, that, that reflection I'm sure might, will make you somebody who's able to support other people.

Thank you. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I know that, that feeling of regret, I have a, a friend who's in that similar space of, of having sleep trained with a previous child and just doesn't forgive herself for that. Mm. And I guess one day I hope that you will. Thank you. Let's go back to when Clodagh was coming towards the end of her breastfeeding experience.

Mm-hmm. So your cycle hadn't returned. She was what, 12, 13 months? Mm-hmm. And you knew you wanted to conceive again, but she's sleeping through the night and your cycle still hasn't, isn't returning. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. 

[00:19:44] Jill: Yeah. So we dropped bit by bit and we were, even when we were down to just one in the morning, one at night, uh, like, you know, before bed that there was still no cycle.

So we dropped again and yeah, it wasn't until I stopped entirely, it came back within about two weeks then. 

[00:20:00] Emma Pickett: Gosh. Okay. Mm-hmm. So for anyone listening, I would say that that's not the most common experience. No, exactly. Yeah. Most people will have fertility returning while they're still breastfeeding. How does it feel to end breastfeeding because of you wanting your cycle to return?

Or how does it feel to end breastfeeding perhaps when you weren't necessarily ready to do that? How did you make that decision? Did you get information from anywhere? Take us back to that moment when you were in those thought processes. Um, I can't 

[00:20:32] Jill: remember as much with her as the more recent ones, but I don't think I've sought as much information as I maybe could have or should have.

I suppose I just, what, what I was reading was, it was, yeah, decreasing the breastfeeding was probably my best chance. That's what I, you know, was reading at the time. And, um, I just, I said I had such a strong feeling that. I really, really wanted our family to grow. Um, and I also, I suppose at that time, 15 months probably felt quite long.

Well, those past a year at that time probably felt like I had done a fairly good job and I, we had got quite far. So I don't think I struggled on that one quite as much. And because although she loved breastfeeding, she equally was fairly easy to wean it, it didn't feel like too much hardship that time.

[00:21:24] Emma Pickett: Clo just sounds like Mrs. Laid back. Yeah, she's unbelievable. And, and as you say, if she was very happy to accept not night feeding, she was obviously in a pretty chill place and didn't have that kind of feeding to sleep dependency, so mm-hmm. Your cycle returned. And how quickly did you get pregnant with Cian?

[00:21:41] Jill: Um, within about two and a half months. 

[00:21:44] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. Yeah. So you've got a little person, you're pregnant again mm-hmm. And you're moving back to the island. You're planning to come back to Ireland during your pregnancy. Uh, 

[00:21:54] Jill: it wasn't exactly a plan, but my husband, um, he hated the job he was working in and he was looking for a new job and he kind of just felt, oh, my heart's not in this.

Looking for another job in Canada. We knew it was never going to be forever living in Canada. And by chance this job in Ireland came up and he didn't think he'd get it. And then he got it and then they wanted him home as soon as possible. So it wasn't too long. It was quite near the end of the pregnancy that it was, we decided we were moving and it was all pretty quick then.

And I think because CLA was such a, a chilled baby, I thought, ah, it'll be fine. It'll be grand, but it was a lot harder. We kid that I anticipated. 

[00:22:32] Emma Pickett: So you were moving after the pandemic? I'm trying to work out timetables. You must've been right in the middle of the pandemic. Right in the 

[00:22:37] Jill: middle of it. Yeah.

Yeah. So he was born in August, 2020 and we moved in September. 

[00:22:42] Emma Pickett: Okay. Gosh, gosh, gosh. Okay. So back on the plane again with a little baby. Yeah. Um, and you had a home birth with Cian, is that right? Home birth in Canada. Tell us how that was. 

[00:22:52] Jill: Oh, it was amazing. It was gorgeous. Um, we lived literally across the road from the hospital, so that was kind of in terms of getting my husband on site, he was, understandably, he was nervous about it.

Um, but I was already with the same midwife team as we had been with for cla and so we knew them when we trusted them. And yeah, like I said, the hospital was right there, so, you know, if anything was to happen, I, we could get there straight away. But, um, yeah, we were in the apartment. Claude went to her minder that day.

We'd be night that morning with her, and by her nap time I kind of thought, okay, things are happening. So she went to her minder. And stay the night there actually. Um, so we had the whole day. I didn't kind of feel stressed about, about her. I know some people keep their child home, but that wasn't what we did.

Um, and I had loads of photos of her up around and I just had the apartment all set up with, um, yeah, just, I had it really nice with lav, uh, not laval lamps, Himalayan salt lamps and candles and all of that. And it was just gorgeous, really relaxed. And he was born Yeah. By, uh, half 11 that night. 

[00:23:55] Emma Pickett: Magic. 

[00:23:56] Jill: It was just, yeah.

Being able to not have to leave, not have to go anywhere, go and have my own shower. Yeah. It was gorgeous. It was amazing. 

[00:24:05] Emma Pickett: Brilliant. And then she came back the next day, I am guessing. Yeah. To meet baby brother. How was that? 

[00:24:09] Jill: Yeah, 

[00:24:10] Emma Pickett: it was gorgeous. 

[00:24:11] Jill: Um, yeah, she just came up the stairs to, and was, he was in the ba bassinet and uh, she was singing to him.

Decided to call him Tinky Tonko. That was his name from her at the beginning. And 

[00:24:22] Emma Pickett: yeah, it was gorgeous. Yeah, it was brilliant. How did breastfeeding go with, with Cian? 

[00:24:27] Jill: Pretty good. Um, in the early days, I thought, again, I thought I'd had a problem that I didn't have. Uh, looking back, I just had some nipple pain and looking back, I think it may have partly been because with CLA I didn't have those early days of her at the breast lots.

So, you know, it was the pump, which was maybe a bit more gentle, I dunno. But, um, so I had a little bit of nipple pain and I was referred by the midwives to some kind of breastfeeding clinic that was run by a doctor and she really wasn't great. And she was that, you know, the whole, you hear about people, she grabbed my boob and she was just very forceful and she used language that wasn't very pleasant.

And I, I remember contacting the midwives afterwards. I'm sorry. Yeah, it's okay. I think I, I, the, I contacted midwives afterwards just to give them a heads up that where they were referring to wasn't great. And, um, I can't actually remember it all now. I should have looked at it, but I, I remember making the point that if I was a first time mom, I could.

Really come outta that very upset, but he improved and I, I, it was probably the latch things just improved. And, um, and he was a great breastfeed after that. Yeah. There we didn't have any issues with breastfeeding and it was my absolute savior with him as a, he was quite a, I suppose, fussy, high needs baby.

Um, so between having the sling and breastfeeding, that really, really, really helped. 

[00:25:48] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. And then coming towards the end of his breastfeeding journey, again, you knew you wanted to get pregnant again. Mm-hmm. And I'm guessing from what you've sort of hinted so far that it wasn't so easy to think about bringing his breastfeeding journey to an end.

Is, is that a fair description? 

[00:26:03] Jill: Yeah, absolutely. I suppose he, yeah. Like I say, it was my, for him, it really, really helped me to calm him. And, um, it was a big connection point for us. Um. I had created this narrative, I suppose in my head, that I have to stop breastfeeding to get pregnant. But I did like with cla and we did have, he wasn't feeding at night by about one.

And so, kind of similarly, even with those big long gaps, it still wasn't coming back. And I suppose I did pretty much the same thing, just dropping feed by feed. I went back to work when he was about 14 months, so then there would be gaps in the day naturally as well. And then I remember one day he just didn't look for it when he got home.

And by the next day I realized, oh wow, it's been, it's been like over, it's been a day. And then after that for the next few days, I just kind of used distraction. And this was just getting rid of the, you know, the very last feed. Um, used distraction really. And I, I suppose I was actually a bit surprised again by, he didn't show as many signs as I thought he would've.

Of missing it, um, or searching for it. Or maybe it was 'cause they were about that bit younger, that they weren't able to ask for it as much. He used to, he, after that he used to just stick my hand, his hand down my top. And that was, I suppose, his kind of comfort. But the thoughts around thinking about it was more difficult, I think, than actually physically doing it.

He, he, the weaning wasn't that difficult, but I was really upset about doing it, if that makes sense. 

[00:27:37] Emma Pickett: No, it definitely makes sense. It wasn't something I 

[00:27:38] Jill: wanted to do, but Yeah. 

[00:27:41] Emma Pickett: So you had that motivation of, I want to get pregnant again. Mm-hmm. I want to give, I want to give my two children a sibling that, that's important to me.

I guess having that core motivation helps. Yeah. But I'm sort of guessing and imagining that you were hoping that, you know, you were gonna get your fertility back without having to breastfeeding. 

[00:27:58] Jill: Yeah. Like every time you drop a feed, you're hoping, you know, you give it a bit of time, give it a couple of weeks and hope that this will be enough.

But I wasn't seeing anything at all. Then unfortunately after I had stopped feeding him, soon after I had to have surgery that I wasn't expecting, but I was told afterwards I had to wait or advised to wait about six months before trying to get pregnant. So then I was like, I've just weaned him and now I have to wait anyway.

So that was awful. Well, you know, that was, no one could have predicted it, but it was, yeah. 

[00:28:34] Emma Pickett: So potentially you could have carried on breastfeeding mm-hmm. During the surgical recovery and stuff. 

[00:28:39] Jill: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That was unfortunate. Tough. Mm-hmm. I, 

[00:28:42] Emma Pickett: uh, I think what I appreciate about you sharing your story, Jill, is I think there's a lot of myths around fertility and breastfeeding.

I think lots of people assume that, and I talked about this a little bit and another episode of the podcast I did when I talked to the wonderful Carol Smith. Mm-hmm. We did an episode on lactation of fertility and one thing that that bugs us both is this myth around, oh, you don't need your period to get pregnant.

Everyone can catch the first egg. You know, I got pregnant without my period returning. So did great Aunt Nelly and so did that person down the road. He's got a nice cat. Um, whereas in fact catching the first egg is incredibly rare. Mm-hmm. Really, really, really unlikely. Most people will need a regular cycle with the right length of luteal phase, which is the gap between ovulation and day one of the next cycle to give it the egg, a chance to mature and do all the stuff that we need it to do.

Um, you need that decent cycle length. So the idea of catching the first egg, you mentioned the first time around you were sort of thinking you were pregnant, 

[00:29:37] Jill: it, it's just gonna happen. 

[00:29:38] Emma Pickett: Did you have that again with Kean that you were sort of Ima or did you know a bit more and you realized that was less likely?

[00:29:44] Jill: I think I knew a bit more, but there's always that hope there, I suppose. And there's always that hope that, you know, like I said, dropping each feed that, that it will come back. And I know for, sorry, I should say that for so many people, that is exactly what does happen. It's like, uh, Carol saying tinkering with the feeding for so many people does work.

Um, but unfortunately it just didn't for me. So you were, you weren't ovulating, were you testing ovulation? I wasn't testing for ovulation until, I'm trying to think. Yeah, no, until after I had a period, that's when I started. Okay. 

[00:30:15] Emma Pickett: So no change in cervical mucus, no obvious signs of any ovulation at all until, no, I wasn't completely stopped breastfeeding.

Um, you mentioned Carol talking about that word tinkering. So Carol's got some brilliant articles on lactation and, and subfertility, and we'll make sure we put those in the show notes for anyone who's in this space who's wanting to get pregnant while they're still breastfeeding. I want to tell you about my brand new book called The Story of Jesse's Milk Keys.

It's a picture book for two to six year olds, and I wanted to write a book that was about weaning, but also not about weaning, because breastfeeding journeys end in all sorts of different ways. So Jesse's story is presented as having three possible endings. In one ending, his mom is pregnant and Jesse's going to share his milk with a new baby.

In the second, his mom is getting really tired and it's time for some mother led weaning. And in the third, we see a self weaning journey as Jesse's attachment to breastfeeding gradually fades. There are beautiful illustrations by the very talented Jojo Ford, and the feedback from parents so far has been so lovely and touching and I'm really excited to share the book with you.

If you're interested in my other books for Older Children, I have the Breast book, which is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And I also have two books about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding for a 10% discount on the last two.

Go to Jessica Kingsley Press, that's uk.jkp.com and use the code. Mm PE 10 Makes milk picket Emma. 10.

So you had the lovely Seán who came along and. How was his breastfeeding? So his birth was different again. Tell us about his birth. His birth 

[00:32:08] Jill: and, and I just mentioned after Kia and I had a miscarriage. Oh, I'm so sorry. And then, um, thank you. Um, that was early enough, seven or eight weeks, but um, that, I think it had taken a few months to get pregnant that time.

And then after the miscarriage was a good kind of five, yeah. Five-ish months then after the miscarriage to get pregnant. But yeah, Seán was, oh, Seán had to have a C-section, so not what I would've chosen at all. But, um, I had mentioned earlier medical issue. I had a bladder mesh put in years before even having children.

It was just very unusual that I needed it, um, like a bladder sling. And after having ke and I was having issues with it. Um, so the advice was then to have a c-section then for Seán. So, um, yeah, very, very different. Um, I know many people choose them for many reasons, but it was wasn't what I wanted at all.

And I suppose then I questioned like things like he had reflux. Um, any little thing I started questioning is, was that 'cause the C-section, like it just felt to me so unnatural And the recovery I found really, really difficult. You know, after being, having two vaginal births, I did find physically the c-section recovery really, really tough.

Um, and especially I suppose obviously I was looking after the two other kids as well. I was gonna say, say you've got two 

[00:33:28] Emma Pickett: other kids at home, that's not, not easy. Um, when you are recovering from a C-section. Yeah. I'm so sorry that you look back on that birth and, and feel that it wasn't what you wanted.

Do you, were you, were you able to get that close skin to skin? I mean, obviously even, even two years ago, we were beginning to think about, you know, the ideal C-section, having that skin to skin experience. Mm-hmm. And, and did you get those, that chance for that sort of early breastfeeding? 

[00:33:52] Jill: I did. No, the first 10, 15 minutes they took him to the side of room.

He was gurgling and they were trying to get that sorted. So that felt like eternity to me. Lying flat on the bed and not knowing what was happening and just wanting him on me. But once that was settled, I, he was on me constantly. Yeah. For the next, yeah, the whole time I was in hospital really. Um, he was just, yeah, on me.

We were just snoozing and feeding, snoozing feeding and it was actually really, really nice. 

[00:34:21] Emma Pickett: And when did the reflux start presenting itself as a problem? Pretty early days. 

[00:34:26] Jill: God, 

[00:34:27] Emma Pickett: when 

[00:34:27] Jill: was it exactly? I can't remember. But with very early, he was just having a lot of vomits. He didn't really appear to be uncomfortable, so now I suppose it would be, maybe you'd call it like a happy vomiter, but I naively thought it was more something that happened when babies were bottle fed.

I just didn't expect it for a breastfed baby. Um, so there's a lot of changes of clothes for both of us and, um. Yeah, it was just more, once I knew that everything was okay, it was more just irritating. It was just, like I said, a lot of laundry and um, a lot of clothes changes. Um, but I did go through, you know, trying the, the probiotics and trying, oh, what's the other one that, anyway, one of the reflux or one of the antacids, um, yeah.

Says you just kind of try everything. And I did, um, some cranio psychotherapy with him as well. Okay. And just got really, really good at gripping. 

[00:35:22] Emma Pickett: So he wasn't in pain, from what you're describing, it sound, it was so, so were When you say antacid, do you mean antacid or do you mean like a thickener, like gavascon or something?

[00:35:30] Jill: It wasn't gavascon. I'm so sorry. I can't remember the name. Worry of what? Which I worry. 

[00:35:35] Emma Pickett: So as, as you, I'm sure you know now in busy stuck into your training, you know, more than 80% of babies were gonna be, are gonna be refluxing in the first kind of two or three months. And it's absolutely normal. Doesn't mean it's not stressful though.

And I say this as someone who also went through, uh, having a baby that was a big spitter. People say, oh, it's a laundry problem. It's not a laundry problem when it, you literally can't leave the house mm-hmm. Without everyone getting covered in milk. And that anxiety after a feed of knowing he's gonna spit up on someone or spit up on someone's carpet or yeah, spit up, you know, in the middle of the supermarket.

That's not relaxing. That's not an easy experience. Even if he does it and then looks at you with a big grin on his face, it's still not easy. And, and, you know, carrying around changes of clothes and running outta clothes, you know, these things are stressful. And then, you know, our instinct is to want our babies to keep their meltdown.

And when it comes up again, that that's not comfortable emotionally, psychologically, not comfortable. I would just say as a little shout out, and I'm sure you'd agree, even the happy spitters and the the laundry problem only babies, that's still a stressful way to live your life. And it's, yeah, it is tough going.

So sometimes it's about having a lot of milk. Um, obviously he's your third pregnancy and you breastfed two times before. Did you feel like you maybe did have a lot of milk or that wasn't necessarily what it was? 

[00:36:53] Jill: I do, yeah. Yeah. I have a lot of milk and in, in the early days, especially quite a strong lockdown.

So that was probably part of it. Definitely. 

[00:37:01] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So in that situation, we might be talking to you about positioning. We might be talking to you later on about even adjusting your supply. We wouldn't normally be looking at medication. 

[00:37:12] Jill: Mm-hmm. 

[00:37:13] Emma Pickett: And then the evidence base, just for anyone who's listening the evidence base around probiotics, that's not something we would be recommending as, yeah.

As something, um, to try and alleviate reflux. And we, and we wouldn't be recommending using anything that would affect the acidity of the stomach because that's, there are reasons why we want stomach acid to be the way it is. There are some babies who have, um, a disease which where we reflux is part of that disease and in that situation we might sometimes go down the road of treatment.

But you're describing Seán as being a full on reflux, but not necessarily a medical problem. Reflux. Exactly. Um, so he is puttering along breastfeeding happily. Mm-hmm. Obviously you had your sleep training experience with Key and then you also had sleep trained with Clara as well. Did you consciously decide not to do that with Seán?

Where did you get to with that decision? 

[00:38:04] Jill: Uh, yeah, no, absolutely. Consciously decided that wasn't gonna happen again and had a next to me, but most of the time he was in the bed. Um, and yeah, so we've been co-sleeping all along and somewhere along the way, in the early days I came across yourself and Lindsay Hook way.

And I think that also helped a lot just. Yeah, normalizing it. Um, and I says I had already listened to my instinct a bit more. Like I said, I had him in the bed from, from straight away. Um, but then hearing other people and, um, with the same mindset really, really helped. And then I also joined, um, an Irish organization here called Quid You, which is a breastfeeding, a parent support group.

Um, and from going to those meetings, I, I got more of that same information about co-sleeping, about sa you know, the sleep safe sleep seven about, um, yeah, responsive feeding and all of that, which yeah, really helped and it's just been a much more stress fee free journey with him. Definitely. 

[00:39:06] Emma Pickett: Okay. That is lovely to hear.

You've really ticked so many parenting boxes, Jill, you've got so much, such a range of experience that you've had, which as I said, I'm sure makes you really valuable in supporting other parents. Um, so your instincts basically said, no, this baby wants to be next to you at night. They want to be near you, we're gonna co-sleep.

And your husband was on board with that too. Was that a conversation you had to have with him or he was like, no, let's go for it. How did he feel about the sleep training? 

[00:39:30] Jill: He basically, with everything parenting and breastfeeding, he's kind of at my side supporting what I want to do. But I'm the one who goes and does the research and the reading or makes the decisions and he trusts my decisions and supports me in that.

But I remember with this Lee training with Ian when I was having wobbles, I says he had, you know, those kind of societal ideas in his head maybe of like, we have to help him to sleep independently and this is the right thing to do, to do. Jill, I suppose he felt he was supporting me by helping me to do it, I suppose.

So in that regard, I suppose he, he kind of thought it was the right thing to do, but on the other hand. This, he saw how I really struggled with that. And this time around with Seán when I said, we're not doing that, he was, he was on board with that definitely. At no point was he trying to suggest to be sleep trained or anything like that.

And then when Seán was about four or five months old, um, over Christmas, Connor, if he's had a couple of drinks, he snores even worse. So, um, on those nights he sleeps elsewhere. And after a few of those nights coming up to Christmas, I said, you know what Connor, I'm actually sleeping way better when you're not in the room.

And he said, okay, fair enough. So we're still sleeping separately now. Um, he would happily sleep in the bed with us. He does not have an issue sleeping, but I would sleep worse with him in the bed. So that's where we're at so much. 

[00:40:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Not un not unusual. Lots of people recognize that and that the idea that temporarily sleeping apart is damaging to relationship, not necessarily.

If people get more sleep, that can be a very much a positive thing. So tell us a little bit about your journey to train to support other families. When did you start doing that? 

[00:41:12] Jill: So I started my training last January, so, um, it's a two year training course, um, to be breastfeeding, um, counselor. And, um, I'll qualify hopefully this December.

So you do, uh, 11 days in person training with, it's a group training and, um, covering all sorts of different topics, um, in, in terms of breastfeeding, but a lot of it is to do with communication and, um, active listening and all of those skills. And then in between those days, do some reflective practice. And then I also go to the breastfeeding group as often as I can.

So that's on every week locally to me. 

[00:41:51] Emma Pickett: Okay, brilliant. That's, that's the thorough, thorough training. So at the end of that, then you'll be running your own groups. 

[00:41:56] Jill: I can either run, I can run one, or I'll probably at the beginning I'll co-run at least with, um, yeah, those two breastfeeding counselors in my area.

So I'll run it with them and then it says, we'll just see what happens. After that. 

[00:42:09] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So you're still breastfeeding Seán? Mm-hmm. He's nearly two. This is obviously the longest you've gone for. Yeah. Tell us, as somebody who didn't breastfeed this long last time, how does it feel to be breastfeeding a nearly 2-year-old?

How is it different? 

[00:42:22] Jill: Um, I suppose you could ask for it a lot more than they could before. He, uh, is all for it. He absolutely loves it. It's really nice. It's really nice connection. And I think being busier, you know, every extra child you have, you're busier and busier. And so much of the focus day to day is with the older kids and their activities.

And sometimes he asks for it. It's just, it pushes me to sit down, which is really nice. 'cause I wouldn't be great at sitting down otherwise. So it's just a really nice, quiet moment that we have together, so 

[00:42:53] Emma Pickett: it's lovely. Yeah. So when you were, you had, you had three children. You've got three children, and you decided right number four, I want number.

How old was Seán when you decided that you wanted to try for number four? Uh, at this time around 

[00:43:09] Jill: my head has been absolutely from, from early when he was quite young. My head has been in a complete jumble with it all kind of trying to decide is, would afford to be the right thing for our family? And if it is, when am I gonna have to stop breastfeeding?

What am I gonna do? And like I said at this narrative in my head that I was gonna have to stop breastfeeding. And I, I dunno, was it with the co-sleeping and things, it felt even more integral to our relationship than it even had with the others. And I really was regularly getting really upset about the thoughts of having to cut our journey shorter, uh, sorry, shorter earlier than I wanted.

Um, so I remember after listening to your episode of Carol Smith, I actually did an online consults with her. Um, and he was only, I think about eight months or so at that stage. So from, from back then, and even before that, it was on my mind. 

[00:43:59] Emma Pickett: Yeah. You had, you had this kind of hanging over you that I guess in a way.

[00:44:02] Jill: Yeah. And then as he was getting a little bit older. Every feed nearly felt like, um, I was, I was another step further from getting my cycle and getting pregnant. Like I wasn't enjoying the feeds as much as I wanted to be. And on one hand I was trying to savor them and enjoy them and 'cause they're so precious.

And on the other, the other part of my brain would be saying, but no, this, you shouldn't be doing this because, you know, this is a step further from getting pregnant. So it was just this, this time more than the others. I just had these conflicting feelings more than ever that Yeah. I, I really struggled with.

[00:44:39] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that's a very vivid description. The idea of having those, you know, almost like these two little, you used to talk about an angel and devil on the shoulder. No. Yeah. You've got, you've got two little people on your shoulder. One is saying, no, Jill, you're learning about breastfeeding. You're learning about natural term breastfeeding.

This matters to you. This matters to Seán. Don't end breastfeeding. You may not even get a fourth child. You know this. Yeah. This theoretical fourth child may never happen. And you're giving up breastfeeding for that theoretical child. And your other voice is saying, no, come on. You've, you've always wanted for, in the long term, that's what's gonna matter.

Stop this breastfeeding business. Um, you didn't breastfeed the others this long, so then, you know, he's not gonna miss out. Yeah. That's so difficult to be in that space. I mean, I, I appreciate you having that consultation with, with Carol to try and help you get your head around things. 

[00:45:24] Jill: Mm-hmm. 

[00:45:24] Emma Pickett: Did you talk to anyone else?

How, how did you sort of process your thinking in that time? 

[00:45:29] Jill: Um, I talked to everybody. I know, postman, supermarket, cashier. Everybody I knew knows that I wanted to get pregnant again and what was I going to do? And yeah, like I said, I just kept saying to people, yeah, I just, I have to stop breastfeeding to get pregnant.

I can't get pregnant unless I stop breastfeeding. Like, this was just the, like I said, the narrative I had for myself. So, um, yeah. But then we loved breastfeeding so much, so 

[00:45:53] Emma Pickett: it was Yeah. Depressed. And you did too, by the same Yeah. Well, yeah, exactly. 

[00:45:56] Jill: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:45:57] Emma Pickett: Okay. So tell us what happened. What did you decide.

[00:46:00] Jill: So I just kept kicking the can down the road. And we, we did night wean a couple of times. Like at one stage I was, I ended up going away for two nights, not to wean, but I ended up going away for two nights when he was about, um, 15 months. And I, I, will I go? Won't I go? Will I go? But I did in the end. And actually he was actually fine with Connor and it went a lot better than we expected.

So, except for my breasts, when I was away, it was awful. I did not bump enough at the beginning, and it was such relief when I got home to him and he fed and fixed it all. But, um, soon after that, uh, Connor started taking him at nighttime for a while to see would that help, um, in terms of getting my cycle back.

But there was absolutely nothing happening at all. And after about six weeks, he decided, he, I says, realized what was happening, and decided no, actually I went home at night. So I went back to sleeping with him at nighttime. 

[00:46:55] Emma Pickett: That must have been a difficult moment when you went back to him. I'm just kinda imagining those two little voices on your shoulders that's, that's kinda like, okay, I'm not gonna get pregnant, am I, I'm just gonna, it's just not gonna happen.

I mean, you're almost kinda giving up on that in that sense. Six weeks is a long time to not sleep with him overnight. That must have been hard for both of you and to, and to sort of give up on that. I can't imagine that felt easy. 

[00:47:17] Jill: No, that's true. But there was just no two ways about it. In the middle of the night, there was a few nights where he started to give out more at nighttime, and then it got to the point where he was nearly violent with Connor and he knew where I was and he was pointing, and there was no way we were going to try and push that.

So yeah, it was hard, but, but it was at the same time, there was no question of whether I was going to go back to sleeping with him. There was no way I was gonna try and push it. So, um, yeah. Um, soon after that though, I decided to try the, you know, kind of the j Gordon method of mm-hmm. Um, having certain hours of the night where I didn't feed them.

And I actually didn't go as badly as I thought it would. It was a couple of difficult nights, but it, it wasn't too bad. I'm sorry. I'd done some of the habit stacking as well, but he wasn't too interested in some of the things I was trying to introduce, like a soft toy and singing. Now he is much more interested in that, but at the time he really wasn't.

[00:48:06] Emma Pickett: So you were aiming for that block of time when you weren't gonna be feeding and, and as Carol talks about quite often and that just having one block for some people can trigger that, that cycle change. Yeah. Yeah. So Dr. J Gordon, who you mentioned has an article about sort of changing sleep patterns in the family bed that you can find online.

It's quite fast in a sense. Yeah, the method. Um, and, and I sometimes advocate if someone has to wean in an emergency, if they've gotta start chemotherapy or something. But it can be useful to read it because it just gives you almost permission to make changes. 'cause he's got quite nice language around, you know, your chart has had all their responsive breastfeeding up until now.

They're gonna be okay if you make changes. I, I normally advocate adding in some extra stuff as you did. So doing the habit stacking preparation in advance. Mm-hmm. Um, and you know, as we've mentioned Lindsay several times going to Lindsay Hook way's, account learning a little bit about, you know, what you could, changes you can make in a, in a gentle, responsive way.

And her books are great as well, but certainly aiming for that block is a, is a good idea if you want to see what difference that will make your cycle. So what, how long did you get that block to be when you weren't breastfeeding at night? 

[00:49:13] Jill: Probably. What time did used go down? We probably got it to eight plus hours.

Um, actually it could have even been 10 and that was at about 18 months. But still, I wasn't seeing any changes. Or was that actually, do you know what that is? When I, yeah, that's when I started ha seeing some changes to my cervical flu. Before that I was. Like too much information, but I was barren, like I was, there was nothing.

Um, and then I started having a little bit of cervical fluid, so that was the first time I thought, oh, okay. Like something actually might happen, you know, something is changing slowly. Okay. Um, and actually, sorry, I think actually that was maybe when Connor had, maybe that was more like 16, 17 months is when that started happening.

Yeah. 

[00:50:02] Emma Pickett: Okay. So I guess there's this kind of, maybe that would've happened with Clodagh and Key and Exactly. Who knows, who knows? I dunno if that's, I dunno if that's uncomfortable for me to say that or whether that feels okay. But it's, it's possible that you didn't need to breastfeeding Exactly. With, with the first two.

How does it feel for me to say that? Um, 

[00:50:20] Jill: no, I, I completely, I see that as well because I like in, in your interview with Carol Smith, um, you're talking about how long would someone have to wait, um, before they get their period back, or no? Does everyone have to give up eventually? And her point was, well, it depends how long you wait.

Eventually the cycle will come back, even if you're breastfeeding lots. It's just how long you're willing to wait. And I suppose, yeah, definitely looking back, if I had waited, yeah, probably things would've come back and I, I was impatient, but, um, I can't regret the decisions I made then I suppose in that regard.

Um, got us where we are, so Exactly. And you've got, sorry, you've 

[00:50:57] Emma Pickett: got to a very good place and you've got the gap between the kids that you have. Um, yeah. And that's, that's what needed to happen and that was what the universe wanted to happen. So you are now have got your cerv fluid back. Mm-hmm. What happened next?

[00:51:11] Jill: He bit bit, he wasn't looking for milk so much during the day, and I suppose I was doing the, the not offering, not refusing, which I know you don't always advocate for because there's some kids who are gonna be looking for it all day every day. 

[00:51:23] Emma Pickett: You know, for some people it works, but the only reason I'm rude about it is because I feel like I have to kind of push against the narrative that, that we hear so many people talking about don't offer, don't refuse as a weaning method.

And I just sometimes like to be the voice that says, you know what, let's just think about this for a second. 'cause is it really a method if someone wants to in breastfeeding soon? 

[00:51:43] Jill: Yeah. 

[00:51:44] Emma Pickett: It could go on for four more years. Don't offer, don't refuse. Yeah. Um, and if, and if children are asking every hour, don't offer, don't refuse, can literally break someone's mental health.

So I'm just a fan of just holding my hand up and saying, hang on. Whoa, let's just think about this. So I've written an article about, dunno if I don't refuse and why I've got a problem with it. But, um, yeah, I don't mean to sound like I'm down on it for everybody. 'cause if, if a child is on the end stage and Yeah.

Winding down, it could, it can work. They just forget about it and they don't ask. Yeah. And it sounds like for, it sounds like for Seán it was gonna work for him. 

[00:52:16] Jill: It was then It definitely would not right now. Spoiler alert, we didn't get the hallway. Um, so, but bit by bit he was, he wasn't looking for it. So our main feeds was morning, first thing in the morning.

Um, before his nap, if we napped at home and then to get him to sleep at nighttime. Um, so there was the odd time where I'd get up early to exercise, so he wasn't seeing me first thing in the morning. I was sneaking out and he would, his dad was there and he woke up and by the time I got home, they'd be having breakfast.

He'd be distracted, he wasn't looking for it. Um, a lot of his naps end up in the car because of being out and about with the siblings and pickups and all of that. So if it was a day that he was in the car, he, he wouldn't have that feed. And those, the very odd evening I'd go out, um, he would miss that feed.

So there was a very odd 24 hours plus that he was going without a feed, but then the next day there could be three feeds in the 24 hours. So it was fluctuating, but that ended up being enough to get my period back. So when he was, I think 20 months, my period came back. Um, which was just amazing. 

[00:53:14] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I can imagine how excited you were when that happened.

You felt like running around and telling the postman on the supermarket culture in the person with the cab. 

[00:53:24] Jill: Yeah, no, it was amazing. Yeah, it was brilliant. I was, yeah, so happy. But that very day, I dunno what it is, it's the taste of the milk or hormones, I don't know. That very day he got back on the boob in a big way and he hasn't stopped.

Um, so I says my next struggle was the worry in my head that, so he was feeling way more, he was looking for, you know, lots every day. Um, which was lovely in a way. He was so enthusiastic. But in another way I was back to those really conflicting feelings. I felt like, you know, every feed again, was going to affect my cycle.

I knew that just getting my period wasn't necessarily going to be enough to be able to support a pregnancy. So, yeah. 

[00:54:03] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Mean, thank you for, for making bring, bringing that up. 'cause I think a lot of people don't realize that when your period comes back. It actually can go again. Exactly. So you can, you know, if you do have another month of lots and lots of feeding, you may not get the next cycle.

Mm-hmm. It really can vary quite a lot. Yeah. Which I'm guessing now, you know, you've met with Carol, you've read Carol's articles, you're absolutely, you know, aware of all that. 

[00:54:27] Jill: Yeah. Okay. 

[00:54:28] Emma Pickett: So you are worried about your cycle not being sustained. Sustained. That's right. You're not knowing what to do next.

Mm-hmm. What decisions did you make? 

[00:54:37] Jill: I started just trying to cut the feeds short, so I'd say, okay, we can feed for a minute. So that's what we were doing and it felt awful because I wanted to just let it feed and yeah, just back, like I said, to these conflicting feelings, but. That's what we did generally.

We still had our lovely long, you know, cuddly night feeds, you know, getting 'em to sleep and our morning feed and all of that. But I suppose the kind of ad hoc ones during the day when we might've been out and about and things like that. I tried to, to try to make them short. Um, but it didn't feel good. Um, but, um, I ended up ovulating just over two weeks later.

And I know this isn't, I suppose again the typical story, but that was actually enough to get me pregnant. Um, yeah, so I'm pregnant. 

[00:55:23] Emma Pickett: Yay. Random applause. Thank you. So you are 12 weeks pregnant at the moment, 

[00:55:28] Jill: so I'm about, yeah, 12 and a half now. Um, and I'm only, I suppose just getting outta that nervous period where, or, um, time where again, the feeding was making me nervous that.

There was no a hundred percent, um, certainty that his feeding wouldn't affect it. And I know that was a question you asked at the end of the interview with Carol, and I was like, didn't quite get the answer. I hoped for that. She just couldn't quite 100% say that feeding definitely wouldn't affect it. Um, and I suppose I felt nervous.

[00:56:01] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, I think, I think obviously I'm not a doctor, I'm not an expert in fertility, but my understanding from all my reading is that once you have, you've got to about the six week mark, there's a detectable heartbeat. It's a sustainable pregnancy. Continuing to breastfeed is not a factor. It is not going to impact on your, the health of your pregnancy.

It does not increase miscarriage risk. And that's sort of Leslie Regan from St. Mary's Hospital, who's a, you know, miscarriage expert and a fertility expert says that everybody in that space who's an expert in miscarriage will say that continuing to breastfeed does not increase miscarriage risk, but okay.

If you are breastfeeding while you are conceiving, it's possible that your egg quality is not as it might want to be. Mm-hmm. And therefore you might have a very early loss that's connected to that egg being sub mature. That is my understanding, having mm-hmm. You know, red carroll's materials. Um, so it would've, it would've been a pregnancy that would've never been sustainable because of the egg, because of the sub sub mature egg.

So it's not like at 10 weeks breastfeeding is gonna impact on your, your miscarriage risk or you know, at even seven weeks or even six weeks. Yeah. Or even five weeks. But you're more likely to get a chemical pregnancy and you're more likely to get a very early loss because of the maturity of their egg.

That is my understanding. And if I've got that wrong and someone's listening and wants to correct me that they should do, but everybody who's a miscarriage expert will say that continuing to breastfeed during pregnancy does not increase miscarriage risk. But when you've been through a miscarriage, I can imagine that you can read a hundred articles and that doesn't take away how it, how it feels.

Um, 

[00:57:39] Jill: yeah, it sounds like there's some articles I miss that maybe I wish I had read, but I maybe on the other hand, like you said, maybe no matter what I read, there's just still gonna be that nervousness there. But, um, yeah, I'm so happy to be where I am now. Um, and it's definitely not somewhere I thought I'd be, and now looking ahead, like I might even end up tandem feeding if he, if he continues the way he is, certainly that is what's gonna be happening and it's just not somewhere I ever thought I would be.

So Yeah, it's amazing. Oh, 

[00:58:08] Emma Pickett: I'm so pleased for you. I mean, the way things go for you, Jill, you, you have to tick every single parenting experience box. So you've had the tongue tie and the reflux and the premature baby and the home birth and the C-section. So you do have to tick the tan, the feeding box. That would be fair.

That would be understandable. I want you to take you back in moment to take you back to that moment when you got that positive pregnancy test. So you, you knew you ovulated. Mm-hmm. Tell me about the day you did that pregnancy test and how, how that felt. 

[00:58:33] Jill: Uh, yeah, I suppose I was just shocked. I was so hopeful.

Um, but obviously, you know, it doesn't usually happen that quickly. Um, I just kind of, I suppose thought, no, there's no way I'll be that lucky. Um, and then when it, when it was positive and I brought it out to my husband, he was just shocked. Even though it was something we were trying for, he just, yeah, he was shocked.

I think he was quite taken aback. And then afterwards he was like, make sure it wasn't a COVID test. Do you think you've COVID, did you do a COVID test? 

[00:59:04] Emma Pickett: Bless. And I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna ask for personal details, Jill, but I will say you were sleeping in separate rooms. You had three children. It is possible to have sex and have another baby even in, even in that situation.

Yeah. Um, so you. Got pregnant. You are pregnant. And tell me about Seán's breastfeeding patterns right now. What does a day of breastfeeding look like for him right now? 

[00:59:25] Jill: Uh, all day, every day if he can. Um, no, he, yeah, we're still feeding to sleep, feeding, um, once or twice overnight. And, um, yeah, first thing in the morning.

And again, like that, if the nap is at home, I'll feed him to sleep for the nap, and then he will just look for it any number of times during the day in addition to that. 

[00:59:45] Emma Pickett: And have you had any pregnancy nipple soreness or any sort of symptoms? 

[00:59:50] Jill: Um, my nipples are definitely a bit more sensitive, but not, I, I think, but I anticipated more change so far than there has been.

Um, I haven't noticed any issues with supply yet. And, um, yeah, the nipple, nipple sensitivity rather than soreness, I'd say it's not any, it's not anything that would make me want to stop breastfeeding or in anywhere close to that. So, yeah, so far so good. 

[01:00:12] Emma Pickett: Yeah, so far so good. Brilliant. And yeah, I mean, everyone's different when they have, they have their experiences of pregnancy and breastfeeding.

There's not one story. Some people don't really notice a supply change. Lots of people do, but even if they do notice a difference, that doesn't mean the child's patterns change. Um, obviously your colostrum's gonna come along at some point in the next kind of couple of months, um, and you can see what that brings.

Um, but yeah, continuing to go with the flow. And you've got your lovely breastfeeding support group to, to help you think through things. Have you met other tandem feeders in real life? Uh, a couple. Yeah, a 

[01:00:43] Jill: couple only. But they exist. They exist. Yeah. There, there is actually, there's one lovely woman who is actually thinking of training to be a breastfeeding counselor as well with qui juice.

So yeah, she's one of them. 

[01:00:56] Emma Pickett: Brilliant. Oh, well I really wish you the very best of luck, Jill, and Thank you. Yeah. I mean, you are, you've made it work. You've got your four, four babies, hopefully, um, very, very hopefully. But you, you've reached that 12 week mark, so hopefully, hopefully that's, um, all gonna happen healthily and happily.

And, uh, yeah, let, let me know how you get on. I'll be lovely to hear about the rest of your pregnancy and your potential tan on feeding experience. Is there anything we haven't touched on that you wanted to make sure we covered? No, I think, I think we've touched on everything. 

[01:01:30] Jill: Yeah. Oh, no, I says there's one thing I intended on saying at the beginning.

I suppose it's just that I just wanna acknowledge that, although I'm saying that my journey felt difficult at times, I just wanna acknowledge that I know so many people have significantly more. Difficult journeys with pregnancies. Um, so I don't want to, I don't know, I don't want to make it sound like, I think what I've gone through is, is, is terrible.

I just think I said it's an important thing to talk about, but I know between fertility and losses people go through an awful lot worse. So I just want to acknowledge that. 

[01:01:59] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I appreciate you doing that, Jill. I think that's, that's very thoughtful of you. And obviously there are people who are breastfeeding their first and the second hasn't happened.

Mm-hmm. And they're in that space. But I still think it's helpful them, for them to hear about how torn you were and how difficult it is to be in that moment. And, and, and when you first reached out to me to be on the podcast, you weren't pregnant. I remember you messaged messaged me and said, I'm really stuck.

I want, I want another baby, and I dunno what to do. And, and then you messaged back and went, oh, actually, you know, I just talked about being on the podcast. Turns out I'm pregnant. Um, so, and I said, well, why do you come on anyway? Um, because I think, I think the journeys you've been through are, are helpful to share.

Okay. Well, we'll all be thinking of you Jill, and, um, thank you. I'm very grateful for you sharing your story today. Thanks a million.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well, get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.