Grannies and breastfeeding with Jan Edye IBCLC

This week, I’m joined by a breastfeeding legend - Jan Edye. Jan was one of the first people to qualify as an IBCLC in the UK, and has run her local breastfeeding support session for decades. She’s a fount of all knowledge and it’s a joy to have her on the show.

We’re talking about grannies and breastfeeding. From how to talk about past experiences, to what to do if you stay over to help, to what Jan’s dream post-natal class for grannies would look like.

You can find more about Jan at https://breastfeedingnorfolk.co.uk/

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

Books mentioned - 

Practical Breastfeeding by Caoimhe Whelan

Saggy Boobs and other breastfeeding myths by Valerie Finigan

The Food of Love by Kate Evans

Breastfeeding and the fourth trimester by Lucy Webber

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode this week.

I am genuinely honored to be joined by Jan Edye, who is one of the first women in the UK to qualify as an I-B-C-L-C. She has a background of working within the NHS and also with the NCT and the breastfeeding network, and she really is one of the leading breastfeeding gurus in, in the UK and has helped so many families.

She's based in East Anglia, in, in Norfolk, um, and really is uniquely placed to give a valuable perspective on the world of breastfeeding support in the uk, and she's breastfeeding Norfolk on Instagram. I'll make sure we put her tag in the show notes today. Our conversation's going to focus on grandmothers and breastfeeding, but to be honest, we could have talked about 100 other subjects because she's so knowledgeable about lots of different areas of lactation.

But we're just gonna focus on the grannies and the grandmothers today. Thank you so much for joining me today. Today, Jan, I really am honored to have you. Can I start by asking you about your typical week? Obviously over the decades you've done all sorts of different roles and w worn all sorts of different hats.

But what does a typical week look for you right look like for you right now in the world of breastfeeding support? 

[00:01:51] Jan Edye: Hello Emma. Um, you really did big me up, so I'm gonna do you proud, I hope. Okay. My, so my typical week is always, I'm gonna start with Thursday, which is a funny timing week to start. I know.

But every Thursday morning from 10 to 12, I and two other wonderful women, one called Joe and one called Claire Run the West Pot Gate Breastfeeding support center, which I think I'm pretty sure of this. I think it was the first Barnes here led breastfeeding support center or group started in the uk, I'm pretty sure.

Oh, wow. Okay. And it start, I started that with others. It wasn't just me. I started that when my youngest daughter was three, so that would be 1992. Okay. So we've been going for a long time, and so it's been every week without fail, we don't stop for holidays or anything. I mean, obviously as you know, Claire, Joe and I go away, but those always cover.

Um, and we also can put in another I-B-C-R-C if we need to. Okay. 

[00:02:56] Emma Pickett: And you originally started that with one of your volunteer hats on with the NCT or hat on, or the NCT? 

[00:03:02] Jan Edye: Yeah, I, I started that with the NCT and, uh, with my good mates from the LES as well. Okay. At that point, BFN wasn't there, the Speed Network wasn't there.

Yeah, I was a founder member of Breastfeeding Network in 1997, so that's Thursday without Fail. That's where we are. It's free to all women. Uh, they come from Norfolk and into Suffolk. We even had one from Lincoln Share, um, about, I didn't know how many decades ago. So it's, it's a very well established breastfeeding support center and it's a, you know, we just love doing it.

Cler Jo and i, it, for us, it's the highlight of our, we, we absolutely love doing it. And, uh, I'm in private practice. I have a small private practice, so I see between one and usually three, possibly four, um, breastfeeding moms, uh, during the week as well in my private practice. 

[00:03:51] Emma Pickett: Okay. Gosh, I was just thinking that's that's a long time to be in a group.

You must have, and it is a long time. Obviously there were people around campfires and, you know, in caves decades and millennia before that. But, um, 

[00:04:03] Jan Edye: and without, without going on too, 'cause I know we, we are time limited, but, uh, Claire, who is going to be taking her I-B-C-L-C exam this year, as will Joe Claire calls the mums that first came to us as babes in arms with their mums.

She calls them legacy mummies. Yeah. And I think that's just amazing. So they came originally when they were babies. Learning to breast. Brilliant. 

[00:04:26] Emma Pickett: Brilliant. So you've got a whole generation that you are, that you've seen breastfeed themselves, and then they came as moms. What, what a special thing that is.

That's super special. So I'm just gonna ask you a cheeky question about the I-B-C-R-C qualification. You were one of the very first in the UK to, to get that qualification. You must have sat the exam a few times or, or recertified a few times. Now. I think I was 

[00:04:47] Jan Edye: in the second or third cohort. I wasn't the very first cohort.

I think it was the second or third. I, I can't remember, in 1994, which is a, quite a long time ago now, isn't it? Um, it feels like yesterday. So I ssat it. Um, or rather I had to recertify. So I've recertify by exam. No, sorry, I've taken the exam three times. Gosh. And now we can recertify as you know. Slightly complicated coning system, 

[00:05:15] Emma Pickett: slightly complicated, but at least you don't have to take the exam anymore.

They finally said, you don't have to do the exam every 10 years, which you did have to do. So when I first did my exam, it was, you know, bit a bit of paper in a room, you know, with desks all lined up. And you were allowed to write on the bit of paper if you had any questions about any of the questions or you wanted to challenge any of the questions.

Absolutely. Um, and now it's all clicking buttons on computers. The world has changed. Um, obviously you've seen a lot of changes over the decades in terms of, you know, the breastfeeding world in the UK and breastfeeding support. How positively are you feeling right now about where we are with breastfeeding support in the UK and the breastfeeding kind of world?

[00:05:51] Jan Edye: I've seen breastfeeding promotion really work, um, and that's fantastic. But what that's meant, Emma, is that more, more and more breastfeeding promotion about, you know, how wonderful breastfeeding is and how moms will get the support they need when they, when they have their babies. We have the baby friendly, um, program, which is a uni set.

Funded program in the uk and that means that all level of all levels of staff should be trained to a level to enable mothers to be able to breastfeed, to think they be able to breastfeed while they're still, let's say, in hospital and when they go home. But very sadly, that that support needs to be greater.

It needs to be greater because, uh, very sadly, mothers still aren't reaching breastfeeding goals, which is a shame, isn't it? Yeah. You know, it's a little shame, but breastfeeding promotions has definitely worked, but it has meant that. Moms really expect to be able to breastfeed and if they're really disappointed when it goes wrong.

[00:06:52] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So we've got really high initiation rates, haven't we, compared to where we were 30, 40 years ago. But the dropoff is quite extreme compared to other countries, um, you know, north America or Australia and Europe. 

[00:07:04] Jan Edye: Absolutely. And it's that figure which stay stays in my mind. I was lecturing trainee GPS last week, this time last week.

Um, so, you know, these figures are very hot in my brain at the moment, but it's still 87% of all mighty savior stop breastfeeding before they really wanted to, which is heartbreaking. Yeah, 

[00:07:23] Emma Pickett: I mean, that is the headline, isn't it? It's, 

[00:07:24] Jan Edye: you know, breastfeeding moms, they didn't just think, oh yeah, I'll just breastfeed and, you know, it doesn't really mean anything to me, but I'll do it anyway.

Not, not many mothers feel that, so it's heartbreaking, you know, if they feel they have to 

[00:07:37] Emma Pickett: stop. Yeah. So, I mean, obviously one of the things that I'm admire about someone who can stay in this world for 30 plus 40 years is that you've got that constant grind of working with people who maybe haven't had the start that they've wanted.

They've not been able to get the support they've wanted. You know, ev even if you bust a gut every day, every day, you are always gonna leave some people not meeting their goals. And it's really hard to sort of keep positive when you're in this world just because there's so many people being let down. Do you feel that social media has changed that breastfeeding support landscape?

You've obviously start seen social media begin. Mm-hmm. And you know, the world of Facebook and you know, Instagram obviously much more recently and, you know, when you started there was literally no such thing. Mm-hmm. Um, but how, how has that made a difference, do you think? 

[00:08:21] Jan Edye: I think all for the good. Um, I, I think that breastfeeding support on social media, and I'm thinking particularly of, um, a very amazing charity, very, very close to my heart actually.

Which is the breastfeeding twinsy frequency. UK charity. Yeah. Brilliant. Yeah. That's all on Facebook. And it has, you know, oh, it's just been an amazing, it still is an amazing charity for those moms. It really, really is. And you know, it's through that charity, but moms can really make contact with other moms in the same situation as well as Id CLCs and be seen by Id CLCs as well.

So, um, that, that's just one example. And I think, you know, hats off to, you know, the trustees of that charity because they are just bloom and amazing. Yeah. Um, and it's just wonderful. Really wonderful. So, yes, so social media does have a place definitely, but it kind of depends on is it going to, are you, are you visiting a page by an item CLC or you know, a, a qualified.

Breastfeeding support person, or are you visiting a page about breastfeeding from somebody that just had an opinion about breastfeeding? Yeah. 

[00:09:32] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:09:32] Jan Edye: Um, and that is the difference, you know, um, a page from an I-B-C-O-C is pretty safe, you know, and certainly association of breastfeeding, mothers breastfeeding network, national Childbirth Trust, and those organizations are yeah, absolutely phenomenal.

And they've done a great deal on social media in those situations. Absolutely fantastic. But I'm always aware of, there are some pretty horrible forums and I know that because moms tell me, and some moms have come off some pretty horrible forums that are very judgmental and make moms feel like rubbish, you know, and feel as though they're not doing the right thing.

So I'd just say, you know, to all moms, you know, if you fancy dipping into social media, just go to a really recommended. Person. Yeah. The acid page, definitely. 

[00:10:21] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And if you feel uncomfortable come out, definitely. That's, that's good advice. I mean, that last bit's the perfect bit of advice, isn't it? Listen to your instincts.

Listen to your spidey senses. If something is telling you this doesn't feel great, it's probably not feeling great for, for a reason, so step away. Um, um, yeah. And you know, on Instagram for example, we see some really popular accounts that talk about breastfeeding and the person is not qualified at all.

And, and often what's sharing information that is actually inaccurate and can do a lot of harm. But then we also have the lovely positives. I mean, I come from a world where I do a lot of work with people, breastfeeding toddlers and older children, and that can be incredibly isolating. Loads of people tell me they know no one else in real life, and that's when social media can create that community, which is, which is super special.

Let's talk about grannies. Let's talk about grandmothers. We know what a difference a supportive grandmother makes to a breastfeeding journey. Mm-hmm. And I can imagine how lucky your children were when you were, you don't have to give me any personal information about your family, but I'm just imagining how amazing it must be to have Janie as the, as the granny in that scenario.

What are some of the features of, of good granny support? Now I realize you could take an hour to answer that question. So in, in a summary, what, what does, what does a good granny look like in a breastfeeding support situation? In a 

[00:11:33] Jan Edye: nutshell, I have two people uppermost in my mind for whom I will be eternally grateful because they gave me a couple of nuggets about being a granny.

The first one was my dear friend Marian, who has nothing to do with, she breasted both her kids. She breasted both her kids, absolutely fine. Her daughter-in-law never, ever wanted to breastfeed and did not breastfeed. And, uh, I was talking to Marian about that, asking how she felt, and she said, she said, Jan, when you become a granny, because I wasn't at a granny at that time, she said.

You have to learn this. You keep your mouth zipped and your purse open. So, and Dear Arian, you know, I mean, she, you know, we're, we're, we're bosom buddies. Literally, you know, bosom are very good, isn't it? I didn't, you know, pardon me apart. But we are really good friends and I've never forgotten her for that.

I thought that was brilliant. Really good. And the other one is actually my dear mother-in-law. I was very fortunate because I loved my mother-in-law and she loved me. Yeah. And she used to tell me, you are like my daughter. And, you know, we used to laugh her. Well, that's a bit weird. I'm married to your son, you know?

Anyway. Um, but Alison, my, my husband's mom was just the most incredible human artistic, that's where my daughter gets her artistic tendency from Creative bit Bohemian lived on a houseboat for part of her life. Human just like it. And I ne I've never forgotten her when she was, she was an amazing Correct.

Lovely mom. Lovely mother-in-law and a wonderful grandmother. All three of our kids just love Grandy. We used to call her Grandy and I've never forgotten 'cause I was with her one day because she lived in Chichester and we're in Norfolk. So we used to go there for some holidays and things and I've never, we had, we had a funny old day, a bit touchy from time to time, you know, three kids and all that.

And I'd never forgotten this because she said to me, John, love, if ever I say anything and you think I need to keep my nose out of it, just say crab apples. Oh wow. Like a safe word or something Brilliant. Just say crab apples. And I know what you mean. That's so clever, isn't it? And I thought was just brilliant.

So that's what I'm gonna say, you know, being a good granny is being careful about what you say. Try really hard to not judge and admit that sometimes you're gonna get it wrong. So, you know, say to your wonderful sons, daughters. Just think about crowd hackles or you can say another word if you like, but it is about just let me know if I've overstepped the mark and if I do, I'm really sorry and I'll try not to.

I love that 

[00:14:11] Emma Pickett: the idea of having that sort of, that little code word is just a shorthand, isn't it? You? And, and it just, it's a little bit funny in, a bit silly and, yeah, and light and, and it, it's like It's not heavy. Yeah. Not heavy, but it's a way of saying, 

[00:14:24] Jan Edye: you 

[00:14:24] Emma Pickett: know, 

[00:14:24] Jan Edye: cautious 

[00:14:25] Emma Pickett: and caution. It's, 

[00:14:25] Jan Edye: you know, I know you will agree with this.

We had to learn to be mothers to be, and we always tried to be the best mothers that we could. And sometimes we would feel dreadful when we took kids up to bed because we knew we'd have a really rubbish day and we, we weren't very proud of ourselves maybe. And other days we feel really, you know, we have the smug mummy days as well.

You know, we've got very good. And it's being a granny, you have to learn how to be a grandmother because we've never done this before either. Yeah. We've never seen grounds before, so we don't know how it feels. It's a very special moment becoming a grandparent, and I think particularly becoming a grandmother, because it's your child in your daughter, your son's partner, you know, that's kind of carrying on your, your gene.

Yeah. It's just incredible. 

[00:15:15] Emma Pickett: There's such a skill isn't there? And knowing how to create a bit of space so a parent can develop their own confidence and, and step into that space. And knowing when to not give advice and, and knowing when to be quiet. That's, that is the greatest skill I would say. Just knowing what not to say.

[00:15:34] Jan Edye: It, it doesn't, it doesn't come in stick to you. I feel I'm very fortunate as you are because when I was a young mom, I, I had opportunities to offload my own experiences of feeding my babies. Okay, now, I trained originally with the National Child of Trust and as a breastfeeding counselor, and I know you did with a BM, um, and how wonderful.

And what you're fortunate because part of our training is absolutely banging there, offloading your own experiences of how you fed your babies and how you felt about that. So, um, and I've done that millions of times now I've offloaded. Um, but for the average, you know, granny in the street, if you want to call her that, they don't have that opportunity.

Yeah. Unless it's offered to them and they don't even know that maybe it would be a good idea to do that. 

[00:16:32] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean we do sometimes. I know we, we both all have had this experience of meeting a granny who struggled with their own breastfeeding journey. And you know, if we look at the history of breastfeeding in the uk, as we've just said, it's more likely that people didn't reach their goals than did reach their goals.

Mm-hmm. And particularly in sort of the eighties and the nineties, you know, breastfeeding rates were the sort of lowest they've ever been in human history and, and all sorts of scary things were happening that we could talk about. So historic advice often sabotage people's breastfeeding journeys. And as you say, people didn't always realize that was what was happening.

And they may have trauma that they haven't really processed. If, if someone, just to spell it out, if someone has got breastfeeding trauma, what happens when breastfeeding comes back into their life? What happens when they become a granny and they see breastfeeding? 

[00:17:14] Jan Edye: I think it can become very painful.

Let's just say a grandmother who didn't breastfeed her baby or who tried to breastfeed her baby and couldn't get the support that she needed, so she stopped breastfeeding her baby. 'cause she was told that would be the best thing to do. And so she buckled it. When her grandbaby is born and that grand baby's been breastfed, it may heal.

I don't know because I had this experience personally, but it may feel to that grandmother as though it's a criticism 

[00:17:45] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:17:45] Jan Edye: Of how she fed her babies. But, you know, we're all mothers, you know, grandmothers are mothers. You know, we never stop being moms. You know, we never stop being mothers. And so as mothers, we always want to do what we can to help our children.

So I think opening, um, you're probably going to ask this a bit later, Emma, but I'd like to kind of pop it in now, if that's okay. Um, I think if, if parents, if new parents feel as though they can or maybe, or the mother or make during pregnancy, can actually open up the conversation with her mother. And or her mother in your or her partner's mother, um, that would be an amazing opportunity Yeah.

For both of them because it would enable the grandmother or the grandmother to be, to really lay it out exactly what her experience was, how she felt about it, et cetera. And for the mother or the mother to be the father to be, to kind of really hear that. 

[00:18:53] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:18:53] Jan Edye: So I think just opening up a dialogue just very kindly and just saying, you know, it doesn't have to be, you know, very heavy, just, you know, I'd love to hear about how I was spent because, you know, I'm amazed, but sometimes when I ask, um, parents, you know, if they knew how a 

[00:19:08] Emma Pickett: bed, 

[00:19:08] Jan Edye: they don't know.

Yeah. They don't know. 

[00:19:12] Emma Pickett: That's a great bit of advice and I, and obviously everyone's comfortable with different levels of discussion and in depth, you know, in depth emotional stuff. Doesn't feel comfortable for everybody, so. Even just hearing the story on a, on a basic level is a starting point. Yeah. But that may even trigger deeper conversations that will be valuable.

Absolutely. And, and if a mother knows that her breastfeeding experience was upsetting or traumatic or difficult, she may not be consciously aware how that has affected her. And, and I sometimes meet moms who, as I said, I work with people breastfeeding older children, when they go past the sort of 12 month mark Yeah.

Suddenly their, their mom's kind of tense up or their, you know, mother-in-law's tense up and they realize that, hang on, something's going on for her here. What's happening? And it's almost, as you say, an implicit criticism that you didn't do what I'm doing. I'm choosing to do something different. Um, and you know, for some, for some old women, not, certainly not you, but for some old women, maybe, you know, if you, in the previous generation, you, especially if you're a great granny, you may not have had an amazing career.

Being a mother was very much your identity. It was who you were. You know, it wasn't so long before people were even giving up work when they got. Absolutely. They have to. Yeah. And so, so being a mother was so central to who you were as a person. And, and if someone's saying, well, actually I don't think you did it the way I want to do it.

I think I do want to do it in a different way. That is, that's very painful and difficult. Mm-hmm. And, but if we can be consciously aware of these issues and talking about them openly, that's so much of a, of a journey down that road. Um, I mean, even some, some of the really subtle stuff like, you know, the concept of feeding on demand and res or what we now call responsive feeding wasn't something that necessarily was taught as standard, um, in the previous generation.

I mean, sometimes we do hear that, you know, there have been changes in what we're recommended to do. Um, what, are there any things, I mean, I mentioned the idea of feeding on demand versus scheduled feeding. Am I right in thinking that 40 years ago people were encouraged to schedule feed or is that a myth that that's, that's a new thing?

No, 

[00:21:09] Jan Edye: it, it is kind of, it was changing. I, I had my, I was a young mom. I had my first baby in 1980 second in 1981. My Christopher and Jojo were born really close together because I, nothing about breastfeeding, but what I did and I thought that breastfeeding would be a contraceptive. I, I love the laugh. Not to your case.

No. I have more knowledge and I realize that only in certain situations. Yes. Like feeding all night for example. So I had 15 months between my first two kids and Ruthie was born late at the very end of the eighties. So, okay. So when Crystal and Jojo were born, it was changing. It was changing from all you have to feed four hourly and all of that stuff to this new thing, which was called demand feeding.

And a little bit later, baby led feeding and actually baby led sounded quite gentle and quite nice actually. Rather than demand, I know demand is not a great 

[00:22:10] Emma Pickett: word, 

[00:22:10] Jan Edye: is 

[00:22:11] Emma Pickett: it? I 

[00:22:11] Jan Edye: dunno. Ever 

[00:22:11] Emma Pickett: started 

[00:22:12] Jan Edye: using 

[00:22:12] Emma Pickett: that word and it 

[00:22:12] Jan Edye: makes you feel like a rung out or dishrag Start with, doesn't it? Yeah. Really. So they baby-led feeding was was the thing that was kind of like.

At end of the eighties, nineties, it became baby led. Okay. So really 

[00:22:25] Emma Pickett: the granny generation was in, we were the pioneers. You were talking about responsive feeding, you were talking about being like baby led scheduled feeding then Absolutely. Was really people giving birth in the sixties, but gosh, I'm just imagining, you know, you were known only a few years away from being told to feed every four hours.

How did anyone, how did anyone make breastfeeding work being told to feed every four 

[00:22:45] Jan Edye: hours? Didn't. Didn't. They didn't. So that that gen, so the nine, the miles that were having babies in the sixties and and 70 actually, that was the kind of generation that I think of as the, I don't have enough milk generation.

Yeah, a 

[00:22:58] Emma Pickett: hundred percent. That was my mother-in-law. They expected 

[00:23:00] Jan Edye: their mom, their babies and put down and to go to seek and bought us and wake up and say, money. I need another fever. And then feed them and put et cetera. And of course we know they. Didn't work like that. You know, that's just not fair. Is it not fair on the babies?

Certainly not fair on the mothers and not fair on the supporters of that. Mothers too. 

[00:23:19] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:23:19] Jan Edye: So there have, there have been changes and there's changes have been absolutely 

[00:23:23] Emma Pickett: fantastic. Yeah. My, my mother-in-law, so I'm a bit, you know, older than the moms that used support. I'm in my fifties. My, my, my mother-in-law, my husband's the same age as me, was, you know, told to feed strictly four hourly and you said goodbye to your baby at, you know, 8:00 PM and they went to the nursery and you did not, you were not allowed to feed them overnight.

This is like days after giving birth. Babies are in the nursery and everybody could hear their babies crying in the nursery, but you had to wait until, you know, 6:00 AM when you're allowed to do that first feed. It is just inconceivable. And then, so, and then my husband's very good friend. His mother tells a story, which, I dunno if you can confirm for me, where she was in the, in a ward.

Some was go, someone was going around with injections on a tray saying, okay, mommy, it's time for your injection now. And, and the, the woman said, so sorry, but what was this injection for? Oh, this is to dry up your milk. Dry your milk up. Yes. Yeah. We all, and she just went round as standard, giving all these injections to people to dry their milk up.

And she said, oh, no. Well, actually I'd like to breastfeed. And the nurse was like, oh, oh, oh, okay. So I won't inject you with this medication that will dry your milk up. Is that, I mean, that story just is mind boggling. It's 

[00:24:35] Jan Edye: mind boggling, isn't it? But I'm just gonna, I, I won't, I won't go on about this for too long, but it's one of my favorite bits of history to do with, um, feeding babies, which is in the Second World War, towards the end of the second World War.

So we're looking at 1940, beginning of 1944. Um, the health minister of the time thought, we don't want these mummies sitting at wholly breastfeeding their babies. Looking after their babies. This is in war time. We want them in the munitions factories. We need to win this war. We are, we are going down shoes, you know, you know, we are losing this war.

You know, we need to win this war. We need, you know, more war materials. So what happened was they created this dried milk, made of those simple Simpsons, and it was called national dried milk. I've got a tin right on the shelf 

[00:25:31] Emma Pickett: right next to me. I've got one 

[00:25:32] Jan Edye: upstairs. We should compare tins. Exactly. Now what happened there was sort the, the, the young energetic mothers were taken outta the home, put into the munitions factories, or on the land, most often munitions factories or on the land.

And little granny was at home bottle feeding the baby. So immediately you have two generations of mothers grannies and the mothers. With complete safe in formula milk. Yeah. And that milk was made of a very simple solution. What I, I used to know, I can't quite remember, is some by albumins and sugar, lot of sugar, um, and, um, two VI vitamin A and D um, and one other.

I can't have some stabilizer. I think the amazing thing to me is that that stuff was still on the shelves in baby clinics at a reduced price. Supplemented price as as far as the 1970s. 

[00:26:30] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:26:31] Jan Edye: Which is quite 

[00:26:32] Emma Pickett: something, isn't it? So thinking about generational trauma, there was a whole generation for whom breastfeeding was wiped out completely.

Yeah, absolutely. And then they were the grannies to, to you. And, and so you were the, you know, the, the current grannies were the pioneers who had to restart. Breastfeeding almost. Were the, after a generation had breastfeeding wiped out. That's right. Obviously there were exceptions here and there where people did breastfeed.

But it's, when you say things like, you know, initiation was less than 20%, it was less than 15%. And it was just, it's just hard to imagine what that must be like. 

[00:27:02] Jan Edye: Yeah. I mean, I, I consider myself very fortunate because my mother did breastfeed. She was a breastfeeding mom. My mom was, my husband's mother didn't breastfeed.

She started to breastfeed my husband, uh, who was the eldest, she had three boys in Simon, my husband, he's the eldest. She started breastfeeding him, but he, um, she said, oh, you know, he was so unsettled and, you know, he just, I just couldn't make him, um, stay on my breast. He was coming off my bus and, you know, the, anyway, so the doctor, she called the doctor, um, and the doctor said to her.

You can't breastfeed, you'll have to stop breastfeeding your boy, uh, because your breast milk is pure acid. Oh, what? I know. And she believed him. Oh, no, that's, she told me the story. That's so sad. And, you know, she, she said, you know, and, and said he, he got his clean handkerchief outta his stock pocket. I can just imagine what it's happening, you know, and gave it to me to dry my tears and said, you have to stop listening and signing because your n is pure acid.

I mean, you couldn't make that up, could you? What? Uh, and she believed it. Now she told me that when my li my, um, my kids were little tiny times, she used to talk about feeding a lot a great deal. And she told me that story. And for me, in my heart, I was saying, oh no, what? Try and onions, you know? Yeah. What a load of old garbage.

Of course I couldn't say that. So what did I say? I just said. You know, Allison knows so much more about breastfeeding now, you know, and um, you know, you tried your best and I think you were amazing to try your best. But I thought, I cannot tell her that her breast milk was not pure acid because she carried that so long.

And for me to say that was wrong, how would that have made her feel? 

[00:29:00] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:29:01] Jan Edye: So I just said, you know, we've learned so much more about breast, not now. You know, there might have been something else happening in the milk or whatever, knowing full well you just needed some help to get your baby latched on.

Yeah. That was probably what it was. Yeah. Gosh, what, what an awful phrase for someone to use. I just isn't, of course she had two more bega after Simon. And decided that she wouldn't breast eye them because her milk was pure acid. 

[00:29:27] Emma Pickett: Aw, that's just so desperately sad. Sad. Really desperately sad, awful. I want to tell you about my brand new book called The Story of Jesse's Milk Keys.

It's a picture book for two to six year olds, and I wanted to write a book that was about weaning, but also not about weaning, because breastfeeding journeys end in all sorts of different ways. So Jesse's story is presented as having three possible endings. In one ending, his mom is pregnant and Jesse's going to share his milk with a new baby.

In the second, his mom is getting really tired and it's time for some mother led wean. And in the third, we see a self weaning journey as Jesse's attachment to breastfeeding gradually fades. There are beautiful illustrations by the very talented Jojo Ford, and the feedback from parents so far has been so lovely and touching and I'm really excited to share the book with you.

If you're interested in my other books for Older Children, I have the Breast book, which is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And I also have two books about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding for a 10% discount on the last two.

Go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code. Mm PE 10 Makes milk picket Emma 10. Coming back to sort of what else is new on demand feeding or baby-led feeding was happening. Yeah, probably. Um, but solids when, so introduction of solids at six months that started what, around 2000?

Something like that? 

[00:31:04] Jan Edye: Yeah. It's, it is quite recent, isn't it? Maybe, maybe in late in 2000. I can't remember. I can't remember when that started, but certainly I, I remember feeling so much from belief when that came in. And I'll tell you why, because I was so, I remember being so uptight because I couldn't get my first baby to accept solids because of course it was all pap and.

The advice will stick with rice or something 

[00:31:31] Emma Pickett: horrible. Oh yeah, right. Rice cereal. That was 

[00:31:33] Jan Edye: definitely popular even in the early two thousands. So know I start on the spoon and, and think, oh this gonna really love this. You know? Of course he, that tongue extrusion reflex. You know what, you know, you know when they breastfe that tongue goes no.

Comes right out of the mouth. They can scoop up the mom's breasts. Yeah. Ya deeply with that tongue extrusion nuplex. Of course it's still there at four months, isn't it? So you, she pop this so the so is in the tongue, comes out, the food, comes down the baby's chin. So you shave the. Rice is back up the chin, shove it in, the baby's and mouth begin out, it comes.

Oh yeah, 

[00:32:09] Emma Pickett: you've, you've painted the picture beautifully and it tastes so boring and there's nothing to it. If I, if someone tried to shove it in my face, I'd be pushing it out as well. I mean, it's of 

[00:32:17] Jan Edye: course, I mean, I was traumatized on, I just hated giving solids to my thi baby because I thought, this kid is never ever going to eat food.

I just know this is going to be a kid that's gonna be on the boob until he's 21. Because,

'cause I could not get this kid to take solid. He just would not take it. And magically by about five and a half months, that little boy had his mouth open and ready and he was, oh, yum, yum, yum, yum, yum. And where's the rest of it? You know? So I learned a knock on that. So with my second baby by Jojo, I left it later until she was about five months.

With my last baby, I left it until about half and a half months because I just wasn't worried anymore. So I just thought, these kids are gonna grow, they're gonna eat solid food, they're gonna be fine, but they are not ready at four months. 

[00:33:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So you instinctively got there anyway, which is a, you mentioned jojo, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna say Jojo Ford is my illustrator of my love, my lovely books.

I know, you know, but after talking to everyone else, um, so Jojo Ford is just such a, a gift in my life. 'cause I love, I love, love, love her work. So she illustrated my last three books she's provided illustrations for. And my most recent book, which is the story of Jesse's Milky, is very much a partnership with her.

And, uh, that's neat. Yeah. She's, and I obviously the gift you've given her in terms of. Being part of that breastfeeding support community and, and that breastfeeding culture has also helped to be, be such a fantastic illustrator of breastfeeding. Um, yeah. Yeah. Thank you for making jojo. I, I'm very, I'm very grateful that you know that she's in the world.

She 

[00:33:50] Jan Edye: really is. You know, we we're, we're so proud of Asher, aren't we? And I've been learning a lot about, um, things called neo hormones. Have you heard neo hormones tell me NEO hormones. And what they are is they're described as evolutionary hormones that when mothers are pregnant and then when they give birth, however that happens, these hormones are there to absolutely stand in the way of the saber tooth tiger who's coming to eat your baby.

But they don't just stop with your babies. Those hormones carry on and on and on, right through your mothering. And of course, we're mothers until we die, aren't we? So they're very, very strong and powerful hormones, which is why most mothers, even if they really do have the kids from hell, and I really don't believe those kids exist, but you know, sometimes we feed this.

So they do. She will always find some way of saying, but you know, I don't, I don't like them at the moment at all, but I love them to bits and she will always defend them, even if she knows maybe it's not much of a defense. She probably will try to find some part of them that is good at, isn't nice enough to defend.

They're called near hormones. And I think, you know, we never stop having those. And you know, we have those, you know, I have those my kids even now. Yeah, 

[00:35:10] Emma Pickett: yeah. And I, and I think sometimes when, when you're a granny and you see your child go through a painful, upsetting, breastfeeding experience, and I mean, that must be an awful, awful, I don't mean to give me information about your own children's breastfeeding experiences, but, but it, it's so difficult if you're a granny and you see somebody suffer and, and, and you want to end it.

And maybe sometimes you might be tempted to say, is this worth it? You know, I bottle fed you. Um, what sort of conversations would you have with grannies in that space if they're, if they're really struggling watching their child suffer? 

[00:35:44] Jan Edye: This is very pertinent, actually. I was with a, with a lovely mom and a grandmother yesterday and during a private consultation.

Um, and the mother had a recurrent mastitis and was on the verge of being hospitalized. Um, but, um. In the end didn't have to be more sized with mastitis. You know, mastitis can suddenly leap from being just like a simple blocked doctor into being a medical emergency very quickly. So anyway, so it was a, you know, it is a very positive, uh, consultation.

And the grand was there who had breastfed all three of her children. And I could see the pain etched on his grandmother's face because she wanted to absorb all the pain that her daughter was going through and take it on herself. And when the money said to her, mom, mom, I don't, I dunno if I can do this anymore, I really don't know.

And, and what Granny said was. I know how you feel. I really do know how you feel, but you know, you are still doing the best thing that you can. And whatever you do, you cannot stop now because your mastitis really needs you to breastfeed. So I thought that was okay, and I just stood by nodding because I thought that was amazing.

But I mean, obviously she was, she was a grandmother with experience of breastfeeding. Yeah. A bit of 

[00:37:01] Emma Pickett: knowledge goes a long way. So that, that knowledge of not stopping because you have mastitis. Exactly. I could 

[00:37:05] Jan Edye: see the pain in her face. You know, she wants to just really make her daughter as well as she could possibly be.

But for grandmothers who maybe don't have that experience of breastfeeding negative, they don't really understand how important it is, um, to that mom. But what they, you know, as far as breastfeeding goes, but what they do have, what they do know is that that mother will do anything that she can to make her baby in a healthy, happy, whatever.

What, what could I say? Just kind of listen to your daughter, really let's, you know, just listen to what she's telling you because breastfeeding is really important to her. And you know, and with your support, you can make this work together. So if a grandmother is local or if a grandmother is staying with the family, the, you, the family, providing easy, you know, simple food, easy to eat, food.

Food you can eat with one hand, you know, making sure that the mother's rested, you know, things like that. And, you know, I, I dunno what the cesarean section rates are like in your area. Um, 

[00:38:13] Emma Pickett: high 

[00:38:14] Jan Edye: Emma, but ours are tipping over 50% when you combine emergency sections of planned or electro sections. And those mothers are being discharged on day two.

You know, sometimes on the same day if they're deemed d well enough. So, you know, so they're not there from rest. So you might argue, well, best rest is actually at home and not tical. But when they go home, it's really important that they are rested and that they're fed. 

[00:38:44] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:38:44] Jan Edye: You know? And a grandmother's role is not to look after the baby, it's to look after her baby, which is her daughter or her daughter-in-law, who's you just giving birth.

[00:38:56] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That's the great, that's the phrase I'd like to embroider on a cushion, please. If we're gonna take anything outta this conversation, you're not there to look after the baby. You're there to look after your baby. That's, that's the perfect way of saying it. And, and giving the mother space to work out the kind of mother she wants to be.

Um, yeah. You're not mothering the baby. You're mothering the adult. Exactly. So, thinking of, let's get really practical then. Let's think about those first couple of weeks postnatally. If someone is staying in the home of a breastfeeding family mm-hmm. What things would you want them to be doing? You've talked about food.

So they'll be, they're involved in the cooking soon. Yeah. What might they do at nighttime? What do you think is an appropriate role for a granny at night? 

[00:39:35] Jan Edye: At night? Just keep out of it. I would say keep it zipped and don't complain in the morning that you heard the baby crying, I would say. And just, you know, make sure that your, um, your grand baby's mom goes to bed with, you know, a glass.

It's like, you know, glass of water and a snack. Make sure that the, the partner is absolutely on it as far as not moaning the baby wakes up. Maybe suggesting that the partner goes and sleeps in another bed or in another room, you know, something, something like that. But just, you know, having that conversation with the parents now, you know, overnight.

What would you like me to do? Yeah. You know, is there anything you would like me to do? That's in caution. I think making a list. Maybe if parents can make a list for the grandmother who's staying, or the grandparents who are staying, or the older relative or whoever too. That would be amazing. That would be really good.

[00:40:34] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:40:35] Jan Edye: Um, because funny story, my, my mom. My mom is my lovely mom. You know, neither my mom or my, my mother-in-law are with anymore. Um, but my lovely mom, she came to stay. My, our first baby was born and she drove me around the bend because she say, oh, right, I'm thinking I bake some lunch. Oh, you don't eat me, do you?

Oh, no. Oh no. So what shall I cook? I say, oh, anything. Oh, cheese on toast. But it would be every day it would be the same thing. Oh, oh, what should I make, you know, this cake. 

[00:41:13] Emma Pickett: Yeah. You want someone who doesn't ask the questions, don't you? You want someone who just gets on with it. Don't ask 

[00:41:16] Jan Edye: any questions. 

[00:41:17] Emma Pickett: Yeah.

Just do 

[00:41:18] Jan Edye: it. Don't ask. 

[00:41:19] Emma Pickett: You are the laundry person. And actually the act of saying, what can I do you if you are, have to ask four or five times a day? That is a, that puts an emotional burden on the parents. You really, it does, it does. You might, as you say, get a list, um, but then on the list, 

[00:41:31] Jan Edye: actually pre-birth or, you know, soon after birth or whatever, and, you know, don't, just don't question, because actually, you know, as as grandmothers, it's none of our business actually, you know, so it's, and it's a bit like longer term, you know, feeding.

It's nobody else's business. 

[00:41:48] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:41:49] Jan Edye: It's, it's up to that mother and that baby that, that little family, you know? 

[00:41:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:41:55] Jan Edye: However they do it, however they do it, whether that's, you know, bed sharing or whatever, or. Feeding longer term than is average in this country. And as you know, the, the average term of breastfeeding is quite, quite a low average actually.

So, you know, it's not easy, but rather, it's very easy to think a bit a mom and baby are feeding for too long. Um, you know, if they're feeding above, I don't know, six months, unfortunately, that 

[00:42:25] Emma Pickett: is a message that some people receive. Is it 1%? So it's 1% exclusive breastfeeding at six months, about 30, 33% any breastfeeding.

But that's from the, a very ancient and from feeding survey that hopefully will be updated soon. I, I'm just interested, interested to hear what you're saying, Jan, about the idea about keep outta the way at night, which I think is a really important message because I think some grannies think, oh, I'm staying there for two weeks.

I should do some nights I should offer to take over for a night. Yeah. Um, you know, if I let, let, to have a whole night's sleep for anyone who doesn't know, talk us through why that may not be a super sensible idea for Granny to take the baby for a whole night. 

[00:43:00] Jan Edye: Because babies love to breastfeed overnight.

You know, our babies are so clever and they realize that mother's milk making process is very, very efficient overnight. So those overnight feeds are really, really important, um, for the baby to get, you know, great feeds. And quite often, even if a baby does seem to be in arms, you know, most of the daylight hours, overnight, breast food babies, very, very common for them to, you know, wake up, have a, have a nice speed, both breasts, always off both breasts, and then just go back to sleep again.

And that's because of, you know, what's in our breast milk as well, that helps have babies relax and helps us relax too. Um, so feeding overnight is really important. You need to create that great milk supply. If that mother really does want to exclusively breastfeeding, she needs that plus to actually not feed overnight.

When you've started that milk making process, you know, your, your breasts are very efficient, aren't they? You know, they just get on and do it after and deliver it. If you're suddenly not going to feed overnight, you looking get you run into trouble with blocked milk dumps and vied, mastitis and, and of course low milk supply as well.

And another thing is, you know, why, why would anybody want to rake up in the middle of the night if they didn't be? They asked to? You mean from the granny perspective? 

[00:44:28] Emma Pickett: Yeah, let's have the granny on duty in the day. Yeah, 

[00:44:30] Jan Edye: granny's 'cause. So get energy, but being great grannys during the day, which is when you'll be needed, you know?

So if you are intertwining, I can't say I am, but if you, you know, you know. I'm gonna do the ironing. I'm going to wash up, or I'm gonna start the dish. I'm gonna unload dish, I'm gonna hang a washing out, I'm going to, you know, whatever this is. Iron your dog's body for the week or two weeks a time with you.

[00:44:55] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And, and if you want to help the mum sleep, taking them at 6:00 AM for a couple of hours, you know, when that might be handy. Um, and that doesn't have to mean giving bottles to young babies who aren't bottle feeding. It just means cuddling and, and having granny time. And then if someone needs a feed, you can wake up the mum.

Again, just coming back to, um, what we were saying about how things that have changed. So we talked about solids starting maybe a little bit later than people were used to, you know, a few decades ago was co-sleeping. Something that was strongly discouraged when you had your babies. 

[00:45:29] Jan Edye: Nobody really talked about it, to be honest with you, Emma.

Nobody talked about it. Most people did it at least once or quite often more than once. I certainly get it because in the end, that can be the only way that that mother is going to feel refreshed enough to be sort of acted during the day. And, you know, in that situation then, you know, dads would, partners would go and, you know, sleep downstairs if there wasn't a spare room or something, you know, so it was done, but it wasn't really talked about.

It wasn't talked about at all really. 

[00:46:04] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:46:05] Jan Edye: So, and also, um, this is quite funny. I was given several books, um, when I was, um, when I'd had my first baby and in one of these books I remember really it was during my pregnancy, that was it. And one of these books, it said very clearly that babies will sleep through the night at age six weeks.

And I believed it and so did my, so did Simon. We actually believed this. And then when, when my baby, when our baby got to about 10 weeks, I, with Simon saying to me, so. Do you'll ever sleep during the night? Isn't that amazing? Gosh, I dunno. And it was only when I started to speak to other mothers that, you know, nobody's babies were, see, well, the ones that were, were the formula fed babies because their call or t or you know, or the energy there's going to, to digest.

In those days, the formula 

[00:46:58] Emma Pickett: was also much higher in protein, wasn't it? In a way that wasn't necessarily good news. Um, now, now, we'll things are a little bit more finely tuned, but, gosh, six weeks. That's terrifying. I know. It's just, and I believed it. So everyone's being sabotaged, everyone's thinking their babies are broken.

A whole generation of people are reading these books. Yeah, 

[00:47:16] Jan Edye: absolutely. And it was only because. I had great friends, really good friends who'd had babies before me, or about the same time or some a bit later than me that we kind of, you know, we all kind of banded together. This is, as you already said before, well before days of face, you know, sort of social media.

So we had what I call real friends in proper, you know, in the flesh friends that we would meet up and we would meet up mostly at uniquely baby clinic, the local baby clinic. Uh, quite a lot of us breastfeeding mommies would, we'd just go there and hang out and drink tea, their biscuits and gusty our babies.

Oh, and by the way, all you better way the baby as well. Um, uh, and we would go down to the city and not I lived in, nor at the time. So we would go down to the city and we would, you know, go to, um, cafes together and brazen it out, as they used to call it, by breastfeeding in public. We were the pioneers, you know, we did all that.

We were not gonna go and feed in the toilet. We were not gonna do that. And my jojo's done. I dunno if you've seen the illustration she's done that I call lro. It's just lots of, lots of mums and babies breastfeeding on toilets just in cubicles. I'll have to send you the 

[00:48:30] Emma Pickett: illustrations called lro. I'll go and have a look for it.

I've got a few of her illustrations actually. I'm looking around my room now. I've got three framed jojo pictures in my room. Oh, lovely. I'll, I'll look for that one. 

[00:48:40] Jan Edye: We were the finances because we said no, we're, we're not gonna feed in the toilets. We we're not going to do that. And it was, um, when my babies were, I, I don't know how old, I can't remember, um, neighboring them to four or five.

That's when the idea of the breastfeeding womb became a big thing. And so that was, I said, therefore, you know, feeding cafe or whichever moms be eating cafe to be told there is a breastfeeding room. You know, you know that kind of thing. And I had this, I've got this great memory of my friend Vicky, who is well, who I call my caustic friend.

'cause she's got quite a sharp tongue on. And we had our, um, last baby is kind of at the same time and we, I was breastfeeding my, my Ruthie my, my last one. And she would, you know, it's like when they get to about four months and they, they want to feed and they don't want to feed, they want to feed, they don't want to feed, they want to, yeah, feed for a little one and then wave at everybody and then you get back, you know, just all of that stuff and lots of shouting, all of that.

And I'll never forget because this, this cafe worker waitress came over and said, you know, we do, we do have a breastfeeding room in this store. And Vicky bless her heart. This baby, of course was being an angel. Looked at her and said, yes, and I believe you cell paint as well. IE completely 

[00:50:03] Emma Pickett: useless information.

And then irrelevant horse was, just 

[00:50:05] Jan Edye: get your nose out. Okay. You know, she is traumatized enough anyway, trying to feed this bra topic. Yeah. Oh, bless. You know what they're like as they grow older, you know, when we are feeding in public sometimes it's just, oh, 

[00:50:18] Emma Pickett: that, that four month distractibility thing. Oh my.

As you say, I love the description of leaning, coming off and waving. That is pretty much what they'll want to do. Anyone within 200 yards coughing? Yeah. I mean, just anything. Um, so actually let's think about things we want grannies to know in antenatal education or things they may have forgotten themselves, but things that they, so let's think, so we want to talk about distractibility, we want to talk about solids.

We want to talk about responsive feeding. If you had to design an antenatal class for grannies, and I think in an ideal world we should have antenatal classes for grannies. Yeah. What would you want to have in those antenatal classes? What would you want that couple of hours to look like? Okay, first 

[00:50:55] Jan Edye: off, this has been a little dream of mine for about 10 years.

Actually. I'd love to start. Maybe I'll do it now. I'd, I wouldn't get funding for it, so I'd have to fun it myself. I'd love to start a little group and call it something like, ladies Who Lunch or something like that. And it would be with pregnant moms and grandmothers to be, and I'd loved, I'd lost You That, and, but there would be a bit of a format to it, and it would begin with just get together, um, with your, with your mommy to be, and talk to her about how it was when you fed either her or her partner and just have, have a little chat about that, that I, I think it's really important, as we talked about earlier, I think offloading your experience of how you feed your baby, how you fed your baby, is really, really important.

We've got the advantage there because we've done that. You know, but a lot of mothers, they, they won't, they weren't ever have done that. So when they, when they're faced with something, it would all come out wrong because they, because they'd be a bit like a rabbit in the headlights, you know, trying to formulate their ceilings, et cetera.

So I think it would begin with that. It would certainly begin with, this is how a baby breastfeeds. So I would talk to them about thinking about how they drink a glass of water, for example. Let's look, you've got some lovely juice or water on the table there, or a cup of tea. Let's just drink that. Think about what you're doing with your head when you treat that water.

So just keeping it very, very simple because trying to maintain art information isn't fun. Yeah. Actually, so, you know, I'd be talking about positioning and attachment, as we call it, or latch as everybody calls it. The importance of first of all, the baby's head being free enough to be able to tilt back. So therefore that release of that lower jaw can help that baby's mouth open really nice and wide and keeping the baby's head back as the mom comes her baby to have breaths and you know, just kind of having photographs of deep latches and shallow latches and things like that.

And just, uh, discussing really, because as you know, Emma, you know, so much of this calls apart the first herbal herb herbal because babies can't give a deep attachment. Yeah. And quite often that is because, um, of the way they're brought to the mom's breast. 

[00:53:24] Emma Pickett: Yep. So if Granny's got some of those principles too, they can help be that extra pair of eyes in those really early days.

Mm-hmm. That's 

[00:53:29] Jan Edye: right. I just listening, having, you know, huge great ears and a Zi mouth. Um, just telling, but actually, you know, unzip the mouth. Well, you've got something nice to say. You're doing so well or what, you know, just tell, tell me what I can do to make life easier for you. 

[00:53:47] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah. I mean, what you're saying then just about you are doing so well that makes such a difference for someone to say that to them.

Um, 

[00:53:55] Jan Edye: and it's actually quite interesting because even before I became a granny, so when I was a young counselor, I, I would meet grannies, you know, with their daughters, or daughters-in-law, or partners, um, uh, son's, partners. Um, and the grannies would so often say to me, oh, I feel, you know, oh, she's doing so well.

You know, I couldn't do it. You know, I didn't have enough milk, or, oh, I couldn't work it out, or whatever. But they were, you know, they had such pride in the fact that their grand baby was being breastfed. And, and I, I think that's the thing. We mustn't underestimate grannies, and they really do. You know, they've got so love in them, you know, they don't, they don.

Not want to be helpful. They don't, they don't want to be horrible and undermine. I'm sure that's, I feel absolutely, genuinely sure they don't go outta their way to undermine the new parents, but sometimes it kind of comes out wrong because they've, it is a very emotional time, isn't it? 

[00:55:00] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And 

[00:55:00] Jan Edye: did you say, 

[00:55:01] Emma Pickett: as we talked about before, that that trauma can sometimes mean things come out a bit wrong or, but also you're talking to a mum who's very stressed and sleep deprived and sometimes they interpret things that maybe is not the intention of the comment, but everyone's a bit emotionally heightened.

So just having that really honest, um, conversation about this and we're all tired, we're all stressed. If we, if someone says something that rubs us up the wrong way, let's just check in and make sure that we know. And, and you know, the crab apples comment, if someone's winding you up, the crab apples, you say crab apples and, and you say, let's talk about what's going on.

Um, I mean, one of the things that I sometimes come across, 'cause as you know, I work with people breastfeeding, older children. We can start to get to a place where sometimes grannies are struggling a little bit because people are continuing to breastfeed beyond the point that feels comfortable. And even grannies who've been so supportive in those early months and early years start to feel uncomfortable.

So I think sometimes because they're worried about wider society judgment, sometimes I think because they're worried that their, their child or their, you know, their daughter or their daughter-in-law is being burnt out by still feeding through the night or whatever, and they think it's their job to sort of protect them from being burnt out.

Yeah. But sometimes people do say things that, that moms are struggling, you know, when they're already in a world where they don't get much positive feedback around older breastfeeding, they are struggling. What advice would you have for somebody who's struggling with the conversations they're having with older family members?

It may not be necessarily grannies, it may be aunties or, or someone else. How can we have those conversations that make it clear this is what we are doing and we would, we would like your support? 

[00:56:34] Jan Edye: I've been thinking about this and I've been struggling a bit with it because, um, I, I don't give advice. Yeah, 

[00:56:40] Emma Pickett: no, I appreciate That's a 

[00:56:41] Jan Edye: dirty word.

[00:56:41] Emma Pickett: That's a dirty word. I 

[00:56:42] Jan Edye: try so hard not, not to give advice, but I think if I were, um, you know, just kind of having a kind of loose chat about it, I think what I'd say is ask the question, why does it make you feel so uncomfortable? What, what about this, what is it about this that actually feel uncomfortable?

Remembering that it wasn't that long ago that on, you know, as they say, page three of the sun was all about the boobs, wasn't it all about the boobs? You know, and I think it's this, you know, we look in this sort of. You know, Northern European sort of country, you know, very isolated. You know, the UK is a tiny, tiny little dot really, isn't it?

In the world. And you know, we are a bit insular, you know, that, you know, we're island people and you know, we, we and other people's opinions seem to matter to us as Ireland people. Um, maybe 'cause we even too close proximity to other people and really don't know. But also because our government successively over the years have been very, very quiet about breastfeeding.

Yeah. Really quiet about breastfeeding. Unlike Norway, thinking about cold nor northern European countries. I mean, there's Norway there where it's very, very common for mothers to breastfeed their kids until they are much older than we breastfeed our kids for. And everybody's cool with it, it's fine. And the government has put a shed load of money into breastfeeding.

Promotion and support in Norway over the, it's over the decades, you know? And I think it, unless we get, you know, real government behind us saying, this is normal, this is what normal looks like, you know, this is not going to destroy lives. We are talking about, you know, bonding a mother and child here for, and you know, that bond doesn't, we know it doesn't stop with when breastfeeding stops.

We know that. But it's a, it's a relationship that the mother and child had and to break into that relationship, it's actually none about business. 

[00:58:46] Emma Pickett: It's not, 

[00:58:46] Jan Edye: you know, so just asking the question, I think, what, why are you so uncomfortable with this? Yeah. Is it, is it you don't like how my breasts are? Is it because I've got my child on my breast?

And if it is that, why do you think that makes you feel so unhappy? 

[00:59:05] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that's a good way, isn't it, of turning it round. There's something going on for you here, isn't there? This isn't about me. This is about you. Yeah. Why is this triggering for you? And so sometimes I say to the, the parents that ask me about this actually is it's not really our job to convince somebody that natural term breastfeeding is the right thing.

And sometimes we just have to say, you know what? I can appreciate you're uncomfortable like this and I may not be able to turn your mind around, but that's okay. 'cause I'll be doing other things in my parenting that you may not agree with. Yeah. And you know, as a good granny, you are gonna let me do that.

You're gonna step back and you're gonna let me do, do the things that I need to do and accept. I make decisions differently from yours. And I just need you to accept that I have made a different decision. Yeah. And that's the end of the conversation. Um, you know, we don't need any further comment really.

And some, sometimes. 

[00:59:48] Jan Edye: Yeah. Yeah. Quite. It's quite funny. It's, it's, it's not on the subject of granny's, even though he is a granddad, I must say. We got, uh, we, um, this happened a couple of years ago, now we're having dinner with some friends. Our and um, one, were a couple of our friends gps. And one of the lovely g lovely guys, and just great guy, lucky guys, you know, they, they know what I do.

Um, so we were eating and everything and then one of them said, um, oh, I see that breastfeeding is in the news again. For some reason, I can't remember what the situation was, but there was something popped up, something happened about breastfeeding. You see breast breastfeeding is in, in the news again, Jan.

I said, oh, yeah, yes. So it is, yeah. So we talked about that bit and, and they said, oh, it's just, but you know, it's really good that more moms are breastfeeding now, isn't it? You, you, you must be very happy about that. So I said, well, you know, my usual of the, that response, you know, well, you know, it is her, you know, mother's choice, you know, but yeah, you know, we all know that, you know, breastfeeding has distinctive hearts.

And, and then he said, so how, how long do you think a mother and baby should, should breastfeed for? So then I went into the World Health Organizations in recommendation of at least the first two years. And he said, oh, took two years. Oh, I don't like that. When they start, you know, I'm buttoning their mother's shirts and all of that.

And I just said, Ken, love, it's none of your business. Excellent. And he did laugh and he said, I've never thought of that before. I love that. I patted his hand and said, don't worry about it darling. It's not like your business. Oh, fantastic. 

[01:01:27] Emma Pickett: I feel like Ken Lovet, none, none of your business could be a T-shirt.

I think if we're embroidering a cushion, let's get a t-shirt printed as well. Um, with all best will in the world. With all due respect, it's none of your business is it, is it useful phrase to have in this context? Exactly. Okay. I'm gonna ask you, I'm gonna put you on the spot slightly and ask you for some of your resources, recommendations.

Okay. So if a granny phones you and says, oh, I'm a bit nervous. I'm not sure, I don't remember much about breastfeeding, I'd love to do some reading. Where, where would you send them to learn a bit more about breastfeeding? 

[01:01:56] Jan Edye: I've been thinking about this and I know that your. Your listeners can't see this.

I'm gonna hold this up. You, you might have that, have you got 

[01:02:03] Emma Pickett: that Saggy Boobs? That book? It is a lovely book. Yeah. It's been been around for a while. Uh, what do And another breastfeeding myths. Yeah. 

[01:02:11] Jan Edye: Yeah. It is Saggy Boots. Another breastfeeding on. It's gonna put my glasses on that. And it's bi. I don't, I hate, it's still published, I hope are by Valerie Finnegan embroidered illustrations, which is quite fascinating.

They're beautiful embroidered illustrations, aren't they? God no. And it's just so wonderful. I think it might be outta print, 

[01:02:28] Emma Pickett: you know, I think it might be outta print, but that doesn't mean people can't get a hold of it. It's definitely still around, but 

[01:02:33] Jan Edye: it's, it's just, it's a great book. I've actually got, um, two of these now, and I have always had one at Speed and Support Center.

It's just really good. And it, it just goes, this is the fact, and this, this is the myth and this is the fact, you know, so it kind of goes from. Auto fed babies gain weight more quickly than, and they are fatty chubbier and keto or something. And then it goes on to, this is actually the fact, you know, so talks about studies, um, talked about, um, you dunno how much milk your baby's you taking.

And so, you know, just lots and lots of things. So I really, and of course the saggy boobs, of course you have to have saggy boobs in it. And of course we know don't be Emma, that breastfeeding does not make the boobs saggy. It's actually pregnancy that makes your boobs saggy. Yeah. Because of the relaxing hormones.

So we know that. And then over time. Probably your boobs do become a bit saggy and you go through your menopause particularly and into your Yeah. Weight change and things as well. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, our bodies change all the time, don't they? They really do. And you know, and we kind of expect our faces to change.

And so yes, our breasts change as well. Um, but breastfeeding does not make boobs sy, you know, so I think anything, any, any nice easy book, which is why I love that book so much. And I'm sorry, it's not Im print anymore, 

[01:03:54] Emma Pickett: sadly not. But people can't get secondhand books. They're around and lots of breastfeeding groups will have copies of that book.

Food of Love by Kate Evans is another one as well that's nice and accessible. And even though it's a been a few years since it was out, it's still a lovely book to, to get people, get people started on. It's a lovely book. And, 

[01:04:12] Jan Edye: and my, and my new favorite book written by uba, uh, wheen, um, practical breastfeeding is just been published.

And, you know, Reba's work is just lovely Irish lady. She's. Absolutely. It's a great book and she's actually aimed it as, um, um, you know, where this stuff, 'cause you're much more up with social media than I'm, um, generation, um, Zed, am I saying that right? 

[01:04:40] Emma Pickett: Yep. That sounds right. Some really 

[01:04:41] Jan Edye: quite young ones, you know.

Step down for millennials. Yeah. 

[01:04:46] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[01:04:47] Jan Edye: So it's a nice snuck book with great information in it. Yeah. So it's practical breastfeeding by Uba Neen, yes. I'll put that in the show notes. Yeah. I even know how to spell UBA now because we email quite often. 

[01:05:00] Emma Pickett: Yes. One of those beautiful Irish names. One of those names Nobody know how to spell.

That's right. Yeah. So is it Eva or Eva? I know you, you probably know 'cause you talked to me. I, I'll email you, but I will email you the spelling. I've got this, I've got, I'm looking at it right now. I've got it. I'm, I'm looking at the book right now. I just love that book. So even though it's a guide for parents, it's a great start for, for grandparents too.

And of course it's illustrated that makes it accessible. I also love Lucy Weber's book, um, breast, you know, breastfeeding in the fourth trimester. 'cause I think there's lots of stuff there about the emotional side of breastfeeding that people maybe missed out on in the decades past. And, and very soon we'll be signpost them to the, the Jan Ed antenatal breastfeeding class for grannies and the ladies who launch course as well.

Um, I think that would be necessary. Maybe you can do a zoom version for the people that live all around the world. 'cause they won't all get to come to Lovely Norfolk. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time today, Jan. I, I appreciate we could have talked for hours. I hope that's made 

[01:05:54] Jan Edye: sense. I hope that's okay.

And one thing that I will say, which is actually in some advice from my jojo, who as you know, is very sensible, um, she knew I was doing this and she said, but mom, you, you can't make it all. Lovely, lovely, lovely. No, she said, don't forget to acknowledge that, you know, there can be some quite toxic mother-daughter relationships out there.

And the step on from, you know, being a mother and daughter to being a grandmother and mother can actually. Make that relationship more difficult and not less difficult. So I thought that was a really, you know, she, sometimes I wonder who's, who is the elder, you know, me or my daughter? Um, because she's so, you know, she's got a little of grace to her.

Um, and she does really think about things. Yeah. You know, very deeply. And I thought that was a really good piece of advice. 

[01:06:51] Emma Pickett: I think that's a really valuable message, isn't it? And you, it, it may be that your own mother isn't going to be the granny, if that makes sense. Maybe it's your mother-in-law, or maybe you are a solo mom and you don't have a mother or a mother-in-law and it's going to be, um, you know, your auntie or your friend's mom, or That's right.

Someone else from an older generation who will be in that 

[01:07:09] Jan Edye: role. Yeah. So it's just about treating, you know, if, if that, if the relationship is difficult with the older, the older female, let's call her then, you know, for those mothers just to, you know, re retreat and sign their support elsewhere and just know that.

It's not their fault. 

[01:07:27] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that's, I appreciate you saying that. 'cause I know that's not your personal experience. So I think it's, it's important to empathize with people who don't have those positive experiences. And we haven't even touched on people who don't have moms and maybe have lost their moms.

Yeah, exactly. And what it must feel like to be a mom who's, who's mum less themselves. That's a whole other conversation that I will have one day. 

[01:07:45] Jan Edye: Yeah, yeah. 

[01:07:46] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Thank you for your time, Jan. I'm, I, I so respect your wisdom and, and all your experience. And when you do start your antenatal classes for, for grannies, come back and tell me you're laughing, but I'm gonna be checking up on you.

I'll be, I'll be, oh, you'll, I know you'll, I know you'll, but yeah. 

[01:08:02] Jan Edye: So it's been an absolute 

[01:08:03] Emma Pickett: pleasure 

[01:08:04] Jan Edye: and I hope I haven't rambled on too 

[01:08:05] Emma Pickett: much. No, not at all. You painted us a really lovely picture and, and, and given some really useful bits of information. Thank you so much. Take care. You too.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well, get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.