Summer holiday replay - Dads and breastfeeding with Scott Mair - Part 1

This summer bonus episode is a replay of episode 75, where I speak to Scott Mair from Fatherhood Solutions.

I’m taking a break over the summer holidays. I’ll be back with a brand new episode on 2nd September 2025.

Scott is an ex-military dad of seven children, and one grandchild, who specialises in fathers’ mental health and inclusion. Who better to answer your questions about how dads can support breastfeeding, how non-feeding partners can form a bond with their babies, and how to overcome embarrassment about breastfeeding in public? This episode is part one and we continue talking next week with a focus on natural term breastfeeding.

Find out more from Scott on Instagram @‌fatherhood__solutions_

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Happy August to you. Happy summer. I hope you're not sweating in a corner somewhere and you're managing to get some kind of break. Although if you're a breastfeeding parent, probably not much of a break. Let's be honest. I just wanted to take a couple of weeks to share with you these lovely episodes where I had a conversation with the wise and wonderful Scott Mair from Fatherhood Solutions.

I really enjoyed talking to Scott. He is so great at understanding how dads and male partners can support the breastfeeding relationship. Um, we have conversations about natural term breastfeeding. We have conversations around how to involve a dad in those early days and the kind of support that a dad can give.

And yeah, I, I think Scott's fantastic. So enjoy these two episodes and I'll be back with you very soon with some new content in September. 

I'm really happy to be joined today by Scott Mair, who is the director of Fatherhood Solutions. Scott is a parent educator and mental health trainer who specializes in paternal mental health.

And as well as drawing on his professional expertise. He's also a parent of seven children over 19 years, and try not to make my voice go up when I say that, but seven children, one grandchild. So he is living in the house with a baby right now. This is all very much his, his his day-to-day life. We're gonna be working together to answer questions about breastfeeding and infant feeding that have come in from dads or come in from moms via dads, or, we basically we're hoping very much today to talk about the dad experience with breastfeeding and infant feeding.

And thank you to all of you who've sent through questions in the last month. Um, really appreciated. Thank you very much for joining me today, Scott. Really appreciate you coming today. 

[00:02:24] Scott Mair: No, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me. 

[00:02:27] Emma Pickett: So, can I start, before we get stuck into the questions, can I start by asking you about your background and what led you to do this work?

[00:02:34] Scott Mair: Yeah. Um, so as you've already mentioned, spoiler, we have seven old boys, which I have to add. Um, so there's a lot of testosterone in my house. Um, my poor wife Sarah, is either moving fishing rods out the way or fall in love with footballs on a regular basis. And it has been that experience. And I think when it comes to, to parenting in general, I've got a real passion for what real antenatal education looks like.

And it's preparing for the real life situations that we find ourselves in. And a lot of that are conversations we're gonna have today. When it's two o'clock in the morning and you're tired and you're frustrated, and you may be on different pages, you're seeing things ever so slightly differently. And it's how can we help people have the information to support each other?

And I've learned that along the way. You know, I say this quite a lot in, in terms of parenting. Emma, my children taught me how to be a parent. And, and that's genuinely what I believe. Um, we sometimes think, and this is just my opinion, we sometimes think we are the teacher and they're the students. And, and I believe it's somewhat the other way around.

'cause I didn't know how to be a parent until I had them. And they taught me a lot of the things that I now have the pleasure I've been able to put into programs and share back. But the, the breastfeeding part of it really came from, my oldest is 21. Um, my wife wasn't from a breastfeeding family, although she's Irish and she's from a big family.

Her mom didn't breastfeed. She wasn't around it a lot, but it was what she wanted to do. Um, and that was very evident from the beginning. And she was very, very clear on, on the path that she wanted to go down in terms of feeding. And we had that conversation, although. Going back then I, I, I maybe put a little bit of the, you can choose how you want to feed.

I think that was more my attitude 21 years ago. Some people will say, that's right. Some people will say That's wrong, that's fine. As we went through it, I think I became more part of the conversation, but she'd already made that decision the first time around and it was speaking to health visitors and saying, okay, well if I'm not part of the feeding process, how can I be, how can I be part of the breastfeeding journey?

And it was pretty much, you can't, and it was like, oh, that's great. Thanks very much. You know, that's, that's helpful. So there really wasn't that conversation then of how I could support it better. And it was just things that we learned and, you know, I created little manuals that have became sort of workshops and programs along the way of the things that I've learned that worked and some of the things that I've learned that didn't.

Through a lot of the peer support work and, and, and one-to-one stuff that I do with, with new dads particularly is we've been able to develop those programs to just offering that support. So it, it naturally happened and then we realized that it was something that started off just being, giving advice or, or working with my local maternity unit on how to get dads more involved in that parenting journey, particularly Antenatally and it became fatherhood solutions and, and it became my full-time job quite organically.

[00:05:27] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, that's the best way organically coming from your personal experience and passions and realizing a problem and helping to fill that hole, which, which you're definitely definitely doing today. Before we start the actual questions, I'm gonna cheat and ask one of my own questions. Let's imagine a hypothetical question that we're both gonna answer together.

So we're gonna imagine there's a family based in the uk, there's a mom and a dad. They've both got the right support and the right environment to get their life as a new family off to a good start and breastfeeding off to a good start. What pieces do you think need to be put into place for that to happen?

What is the sort of ideal scenario, do you think? 

[00:06:03] Scott Mair: Good question. Um, and one of the things I think we have to start with is that we, we, we use the language and we hear quite a lot informed choice. I don't always feel that the full information is given to make that informed choice. And that sometimes we do put a bit of our, our impartial bias on people to make decisions that we think are the best decisions for them.

That's not just professionals. I'm trying to learn not to do that now as a grandparent, um, and sort of take that step back a little bit. So I think that's a societal thing that we try and, well, this is what I did, so this is what you should do. So in an ideal world, I don't think we would do that. I think we would say, these are the options that are available.

These are all the wonderful support networks that we do sometimes have. But if it was a perfect world, we've got all the information, you pick the bits that work for you and your family, and you create your own blueprint. You don't necessarily have to follow somebody else's. And it is advice. It is support.

It's having people to talk to. It's preparing for the communication part of a relationship that we sometimes don't do. You know that to have these conversations, and it's not saying that one should be overpowering than the other one. It's just that I think sometimes we don't prepare parents that there's gonna be times where you might be on a different page, you may not agree with the strategy, you may not be happy in that situation.

How do I get that point across without it becoming like it's an attack on the other person and it becomes a bit confrontational. Just to be prepared. That's gonna happen, especially at two o'clock in the morning, like I mentioned that maybe we shouldn't be doing this, or you know, you're tired, you're frustrated, everything's kicking in, that we're not preparing parents for that.

You know that it is challenging, it's wonderful, but it's hard. So it's more honest, real life experience. These programs, the apps, the information is, it is fantastic. It is wonderful, but it's difficult. It's challenging. You try to learn these new skills. We tell people when they have a baby that you're gonna meet this new person that you haven't met before and it's gonna be wonderful.

It sometimes takes time, which again, we don't highlight enough. It's not always instant, but it's not just that one person. If you're having your first baby and it's one baby, so you're not having multiples, you are meeting three people, in my opinion, for the first time because you didn't know yourself as a parent and you're trying to figure that out as you're going through.

And you didn't know your partner as a parent. And there is a change when they develop into those roles. So it's, you know, things are different and we hear quite a lot. It's not like it was before. It's not gonna be like it was before. It's never gonna be like it was before. This is different and different is hard because it's changed, but it's new and it's possibly better, but it is gonna be that change.

And I think it's that change and the new reality that some people find difficult. So it would be better preparation, more honest, relatable information, um, and just giving people the options to make their own choice. And yes, we are here to talk about, um, supporting during breastfeeding, but sometimes that isn't the option.

And it might be tried and it might not work out. So it's not that you've done anything wrong is the message I would like to get across. It's not the failure that we sometimes impart, it's that sometimes it's just going to go another way. And it's having the confidence to make that choice and the support to know that it's the right one for you.

And that's the most important part. 

[00:09:14] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I love what you said about communication. I think that is so, so important. When there's hormones flying around and everyone's tired, and maybe we're recovering from a traumatic birth from both perspectives, it's really easy to blurt and say stuff necessary without thinking about it fully.

And, and I talk to parents who 20 years later, remember that blurt and the impact that had, and you just, just to, to help parents have those honest communications in a loving, gentle, thoughtful way. Yeah, it's not easy. I'm not saying it can be achieved easily, but that, that's the sort of dream. And I also love what you said earlier about how our babies teach us.

And I think sometimes we have to acknowledge that antenatal education is only ever going to get so far. And even with feeding choices, you don't necessarily know how you're gonna feel until there's a baby right there in front of you. So I think you have to sort of keep that flexibility. And if you know that you're somebody who loves to be in control and you're a planner and you want to get the apps and you want to write everything down to, to let go of that a little bit and to, to take a little step back and go, we're gonna spend a couple of weeks here.

I'm, I'm not gonna make loads of plans. We're just gonna be together as a family. We're gonna see how it works. I dunno if you can teach flexibility, but that would be the dream. And, and then if we're talking about that hypothetical world, and we'll talk about this a bit more in a minute, antenatal education I don't think has quite got how to get dads as part of the conversation.

I don't think we've achieved that. And I think too often I'm hearing stories of, of even antenatal classes where dads are encouraged to leave the room. I mean, that's still happening sometimes when we're talking about breastfeeding. And we just haven't really got how to help dads understand they're part of the process.

I mean, that conversation you had 21 years ago when the health visitor said, you're not part of the process, we're still sometimes hearing that today, which is absolutely not true. And actually one of the, the first comments that we had was from a a, a dad called Matt and he said, um, what I think is good for new dads to know is that your support as a partner can really make a difference in your partner's experience and your child's your partner.

Knowing that you are in their corner, not just through words, but through action, by learning about the benefits, the struggles, the social impact of breastfeeding can go a long way. It's a great way to strengthen your bond with your partner and your child. Plus it's actually fascinating, and I actually love that comment.

He wasn't actually asking a question, he just wanted to, to highlight that. And I, and I love that and I think that's, that's the nubbin of it really, isn't it? 

[00:11:42] Scott Mair: I'm still after 21 years and, and seven babies that were breastfed. Um, and my youngest, and again, it goes back to that point, my youngest was a neonatal baby and he was a little bit sort of delayed in some of the development.

Um, but I mean, he was, he was free before he decided that he'd, he'd sort of weaned himself off being breastfed. And it was watching, all of my boys were over two and it was baby led in terms of I've had enough, no, i'll, I'll sort of go away. And we joke in my house that when they get to that stage, they come to the dark side, they come to daddy, then that's when daddy becomes fun.

But what I love more than anything is that when my boys, maybe my older ones, um, they still levitate to mom when they don't feel very well. Um, I think that's a natural thing, but what I've always witnessed, and I I I do, I love it and. Is they will sit and they will get as near to mommy's chest as they possibly can.

Some people would be uncomfortable with that and some people won't get it. For me, I find it incredible that they look for that comfort still, even at a slightly older age. And it'll just be the head on the chest or sometimes it's the hand on the middle of the chest. 'cause again, you're the expert. But there was always that when they were feeding on one side, they were sort of stroking the other side as they were doing it.

Um, they still tend to do that when they, Levi take towards mom and they adopt that same sort of position. Or my youngest, who is five, will still sort of lie across her sort of chest and her stomach in that same sort of way when he is not feeling very well. So yes, we know there's so many benefits and, and, and you are the, the expert that can explain a lot more of them than I can.

But that connection is the one for me, which again, lots of the conversation today. And going back to Matt's point, which is really nice, is that we sometimes see that as a barrier. Is there's, there's a really big connection there, which means that I can't have that same connection. And I know some of these questions will be able to address some of those feelings that, that dads feel.

But it, no, it is, it's just, it's absolutely marvelous. And to see, you know, when they're not well. And there was that extra demand, which is a bit of a demand on my wife and anybody that's breastfeeding. I understand that, but it was, the body just knows what to do. And that sort of interaction and connection that, yeah, I am, as much as when, when I work with families, I am trying to come across as, as as pro-choice.

You know, it, it is what works for you. Of course it is. And I don't want anybody to feel bad if it doesn't work, but that can't mean that I can't celebrate how wonderful it is and try and promote that connection because I've, I've witnessed it for 21 years. So, but you can be more involved. And I know some of these questions we're going to touch on that, that positive reinforcement is important, I believe, and it's not in an insulting, condescending kind of way.

And we can't possibly relate. Um, but it's not always easy and I think that's the bit that we don't promote either, um, is it is a little bit, especially getting started. Um, and I've witnessed it again, obviously with, with being a granddad recently, is it, it it's not always easy. It's not sometimes as natural, um, as we sometimes like it's just gonna, gonna put a baby there and it's gonna feed and everything's gonna be great.

So when it is a little bit challenging or it becomes sore. My wife used to suffer with mastitis quite, quite badly, particularly first time round, is that, you know, how wonderful they are, how grateful you are for the fact that they're, that they're doing this, um, and the benefits. And it's just sometimes finding that balance between being supportive and maybe encouraging them to do something that they're no longer com comfortable with, which I know will be something that we'll address later on, but I think that support is really important.

[00:15:03] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I love what he said about, it's actually fascinating. I think if you wanna nerd out lactation, I mean, I've spent, you know, literally 20 years doing this. Now, if you wanna nerd out, lactation is such an interesting world, and to read about the research and learn about the science and learn about, you know, the antibodies and the alpha lac to albumin killing cancer cells.

I mean there's just, you know, you can seriously nerd out. Um, you know, I've obviously watched lots of couples over the years. I've been in rooms I've been in at their home. They've come to see me, I've met them in groups and I've met some magic dads who just absolutely sit at the front of my mind. Dads that remembered things that the mom had forgotten and said things like, well, you know, remember last night when you did that, that helped?

And you know, last week you were doing this and today you're doing that. You know, they were able to make connections. They, they're like the sort of the video camera, the operator who can say to them, mum, well, when we did that yesterday, you know, your leg was a bit higher and the positioning was a bit different.

Let's try and change that. Um, they're also the second pair of ears when the mum is super tired and not able to absorb information. They just, they partners and dads can make such an incredible difference. And I just think, and I hope there's nothing else people take away from today. It's, it's that the significance of that role and how important that that role really is, um, you know, and it can't be underestimated.

Um, we, you know, and we can see it in research. We know it makes an enormous difference. Um, and, and what you said about saying, well done, I think sometimes people think, is that cheesy? Am I allowed to say that? But the mums who come to me and say, you know, it was my son's birthday today, and we did the birthday cake, and, and then my husband pulled me aside, I'm gonna cry now.

Pathetic as that. My husband pulled me aside and gave me a little boob cake and said, you know, you've been doing this for a year, and I want to say how grateful I am and what a difference it makes. And thank you so much for giving our child that start in life. And I'm, I'm not a crier, Scott. I do not know why I'm crying.

I think it's lovely. Just, it just, I've just, when moms tell me this, I know how much it means to them. And I, and when, you know, people are at the end of a self weaning journey and the, you know, little 3-year-old or whatever's not breastfeeding anymore, and the mom's feeling a bit down and the dad says, I just need you to know, I have seen what a difference that's made.

And I'm so grateful, and thank you for giving yourself in that. And, you know, thank you for doing the nights and thank you for letting me sleep. And you know, you know, it's, I just know what, what you've given and how grateful I am. And, and when partners and dads say that to their, to the moms, it, it hits so hard.

It really, really helps. Um, so never stop the cheesy comments is what I would say. No, 

[00:17:32] Scott Mair: I, I, I, I agree with that a hundred percent. I think it's, it's really important. Again, my take on this from, from having these conversations, um, but also from living it is that sometimes it, it, it might not be well received because it might appear cheesy, but it's going to be remembered in a few weeks time or a few months time when it is a nighttime feed that's difficult or when they're maybe not feeling very well or they're going through that phase where it just feels like they're permanently attached and that might be a little bit more challenging.

And it's remembering that it is appreciated. So it's, it, I don't think you can say it enough. I don't think you can sort of. Overly praise. Um, but yeah, you don't want to come across condescending, cheesy, we all like a bit of cheese. Nothing wrong with a bit of cheese. 

[00:18:16] Emma Pickett: I think you say, listen, I know this is cheesy, but I need to say let's address the cheese.

Call out that, that's, that's gotta help. Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay, so let's get stuck into some more of these questions. So one question says here. What sort of information is helpful for dads to know about breastfeeding? Now that's obviously quite a big question and we could take 10 hours to answer that question, but I, I'd love to sort of throw some ideas out.

So I'm gonna suggest that you say something, I say something, we kind of bounce ideas off each other. So if you are running an antenatal course on breastfeeding for dads, what information do you want to be to come across in that course? 

[00:18:51] Scott Mair: I think it's to understand the demand. Um, would, would be one of the, I'll do my three top ones that I normally do.

Um, the, the demand, which is the physical and emotional, um, how you can be part of that process. Um, and I know this one probably comes up quite a lot, but I had this sort of mantra of. I feed mom, mom feeds baby. So by proxy I'm sort of part of that process. So it's making sure lots of drinks, nice. We call them bad goodies in my house.

So it's the, the occasional cake, a bit of chocolate, a boob cake's, not a bad show. Um, but it's just those nice treats and making sure that this thing's to eat. Um, sometimes chopping up so you can do it one handed, because trying to eat a meal sometimes is quite difficult when you've got a baby attached.

Um, or even trying to get a sandwich sometimes is quite difficult. So it would be, you can be part of that process, um, offering the, the emotional support and then the, the last one, maybe not necessarily in that order, but understanding that you said not necessarily having to fully nerd out, but just understanding the process, um, the benefits to it, to both of them.

Um, and yeah, just having a little bit more of an understanding. So I think it's easier to give support when you know a little bit more, um, about what you're trying to support. So that, that would be the ones that I normally highlight the most. 

[00:20:04] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what, you mentioned the word demand in the context of sort of demand on mom's body, but uh, we, we also in, in breastfeeding talk a lot about supply and demand, and it's really important that people understand how milk production works and how in the first few weeks of breastfeeding people are still forming breast tissue and forming prolactin receptors in, in one theory.

And the more you breastfeed, the more you're setting your milk production up in the long term to be healthy good milk production. So that does mean a lot of frequent feeding at the beginning for good reason. You know, you're, you're paying the bank so later on you, you've got that milk production up and running.

And we want dads to understand how milk is made and how milk production works. Um, and also I would just highlight that we want people to understand that it is not just milk. There's, you know, we give birth to our babies early because they've got massive heads and we've got stupid pelvises 'cause we stand up straight.

So as a species, human beings have to give birth to their babies when they're quite premature. And that means that those babies have got a lot of brain development to do in the first year of life. And when they're breastfeeding, there's a big psychological, neurological, emotional thing happening. And it's not just a way to give milk, there is relationship building stuff going on as well.

You know, we're delivering hormones that, that help babies feel content and trusting. We're delivering hormones that affect sleep and, and you know, digestion and millions of other processes. But breastfeeding is meant to be for comfort. And we lost sight of that a little bit in the 20th century. And that means that some of the older relatives in our families may not feel comfortable with that concept.

But we need dads of the 21st century to know that breastfeeding is meant to be for comfort. And it also may be quite frequent. And that's okay. It's meant to help people go to sleep and that's okay. Um, so understanding a little bit about, you know, the macro benefits of breastfeeding, it's not just about nutrition.

It's not just about immunological benefits, it's about that connection and, and building those relationships. And, and the other thing I would say for dads is that just be a wee bit careful about that little devil on your shoulder that tells you to time breastfeeds. That tells you to time the length between feeds and tells you to time the length of a feed.

And I think sometimes when dads can't literally get in there and breastfeed, they think, okay, I'm gonna help by recording feeds. I'm gonna write down the start time. I'm gonna write down the end time. We're gonna talk about, you know, that was only two hours or that was an hour and a half. And that, I think that can be a bit dangerous.

And I, I wrote an article that you can find on the UNICEF baby friendly website about what I call the obsession of infant feeding intervals and what can go wrong if we go down that road. And I'm thinking of one family in particular that I met several years ago where the mum was really struggling with latching.

And the dad's job was the app, and he pressed the start button on the app to start the beginning of the feed being recorded, and then the baby bobbed off again. So he pressed stop, the baby went back on, he pressed start, the baby bobbed off, he pressed stop. And he wasn't looking at the mum, he wasn't looking at how she was feeling.

He wasn't able to kind of support her because his job was the app in his mind, and his job was measuring the minutes. And I just think we just need to be a wee bit careful. We don't get sucked into that because it's very easy to think that that's important. Um, and actually it can lead you down a slightly dangerous road of missing the point of what Breastfeeding's about.

So, um, just be careful about the urge to measure and count and, and just let the hippie stuff happen. You know, it's about connection, it's about feelings. It's, it's not necessarily gonna be measurable. Um, but also learn how milk supply works and learn how milk production works. I mean, it's great if you can understand things like what's a blocked duct, you know, what's mastitis, what's tongue tie?

Where are the local breastfeeding support groups? What's the difference between a lactation consultant and a peer supporter? If I really have a serious problem here, which helpline am I gonna ring? You know, dads are brilliant at being the gatekeeper of all that kind of information. Um, and it's often the dads who are calling to find this extra support.

Um, so that's, that's the kind of information I would love dads to have that 

[00:24:04] Scott Mair: could just add on that. I think that's a brilliant point about, 'cause I think that we are quite practically minded. We're quite logical sometimes, um, particularly as the male parent, and you can see how that could happen when that you become that human app.

Um, and yeah, I'm really glad you cleared that up because I, I could see how that can happen. The, the, the one thing that I do try and promote, and again, it was just learning these things, was what you can't just constantly monitoring which breast they fed off last. Because you sometimes get to the middle of the night and, and Sarah would say, I can't remember what side I fed on last.

So it might not be the monitoring the time or how many feeds, but it was, yeah, well sometimes you're gonna forget, you know, so that, that was the sort of the journal or the diary or the thing that I put on the phone is, it might be the time, but like I said that I tried not to get too fixated on that, but I can see how it happens and I'm, I'm glad you did clear that up.

But the, the side, I always found that quite helpful as you fed on the left last time. Um, so that, yeah, and that 

[00:25:01] Emma Pickett: shows that you were watching and that shows that you were part of, you know, you paid attention and that message to her is not just, Scott knows it's of the left, but Scott noticed and paid attention and that, that feels significant as well.

Um, yeah, I like the hair time. The rest just swapping bra bracelets so you know, which, which is the next side. Okay, so next question is a biggie. Um, brace yourself. Cool. How can dads bond with their baby if they don't feed them? 

[00:25:27] Scott Mair: Yeah, see this one does come up a lot and. I, I enjoy this one because bonding attachment is probably one of the bits I enjoy the most, um, is having this conversation with dads.

When we do at any stage, we, particularly early on having these conversations to how you can do it. We talk quite a lot, um, about certain things when it comes to bonding attachment, and we don't always bring dads into the conversation, as you pointed out quite rightly. So skin to skin is, is my golden tip.

Always has been. Um, I swear by it with my eldest. I didn't really do skin to skin as much like 21 years ago, but it was mainly Sarah was saying, maybe you should sort of try and have that cuddle. And I says, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then my second son, I did it a little bit more, um, and sort of felt it, and the only way that I've been ever able to describe this to dads is I didn't fully understand the benefit of skin to skin until I felt it.

Um, and then it changed everything and it's sort of been the one thing that I constantly promote, but it's, it sounds silly, but it's doing it properly. I think sometimes what we do is we, we encourage it from the beginning. Um, with, with mom, in my experience, um, with the work that we do, but with Sarah, it was always encouraged.

I don't think a professional ever really brought me into that conversation. I've gotta be honest. And that's not a criticism. It's just an observation. That's what happened. It was more Sarah that would say, sort of try it, particularly after she had that golden hour in the hospital and she had that first sort of little bit of time from sort of baby free onwards.

I would sort of then get my shirt off and I'd have skin to skin immediately and hospital. But it was knowing what you're looking for because what we tend to see sometimes from dads is they'll put the baby on their chest, they'll hold them, they don't really know what they're looking to feel, they don't really know the benefits of skin to skin, and it'll just be okay.

It was maybe nice, but I don't really know what happened. Or nobody's really explained that they're looking for that shift in weight. So when you've got a baby on your chest, and you'll know this and people listening that have got children will know what I mean by this, but it's the, there's a difference between a baby that is asleep and a baby that is asleep.

And it's that sort of shift in weight where they sink into you, where you can sort of start to feel and exchange that oxytocin, that nice warm fuzzy feeling, having that cuddle. And for babies that are being breastfed, what I would do is I would take my boy and I would do the wind in. People say it's not a talent.

Then you get a baby that's got a bit of wind and you realize it's quite important to be able to get it off. So that became the dad job, is I would take them if they were fed skin to skin, and then I would take them for skin to skin, do the winding, get the wind off, have that coddle and they would get to sleep on me.

But it's some of the basic things like people won't see this. I've got a bit of a beard, I've got to keep it at a certain length for Sarah, tells me off, right? But mm-hmm. So you've either got to have a substantial beard or be clean shaven. So if you are holding baby on your chest and you've got stubble and baby's moving its head, it's gonna irritate baby.

And the same with the chest. You've either got to be David Hasselhoff for those that know who he is, um, or you've got to wax it or keep it really short 'cause it's the same thing. Very sensitive baby skin on that stubbly chest and stubbly head that. So all that's gonna happen is baby's gonna be upset, they're gonna cry, probably gonna go back to to mom or be put back down and it's, our skin to skin didn't work, but we didn't take the time to encourage it properly and make sure they're getting that contact and not having too long.

So the baby overheats on dad. So skin to skin, um, is definitely my number one tip without a shadow of a doubt. And you can be part of that process. You know, if mom's having a feed, um, then you can sort of lie down together. You know, you can have that contact as long as you're accepting the fact that sometimes you might get, look, I'm touched out.

Leave me alone, which is gonna be a conversation we get to later. It's knowing where those boundaries are, but having that contact, being part of the process, having that cuddle, watching baby feed, like you said, studying it. But it's fascinating to watch. It truly is, and that's using that word again. So being involved in that process, having that contact, having cuddles as much as you can, what you're comfortable with, but watching them studying what their patterns are, the difference between when they're fully asleep or when they could maybe be stirred.

What sort of things Stirred them. Studying the facial expressions. Getting to understand what the cries mean because it, one thing we hear is, oh, well, like I used to say boob fixes most things in my house, you know, when they were upset, they just, you can always give it to mom and she'll fix it. But that's a demand that we sometimes don't want to put on.

So it, but it might be okay. Let's go through the list of what everything else might be wise, baby crying. Well, that sounds like a wet cry, but if you've listened to the crying, you've watched them. Um, and often you can start to understand and you'll develop that relationship with them so you can start to cater to some of the other needs.

But even if it is that they need a milk, the fact that you could say, oh, I think they're hungry. I've tried everything else. Do you want to try a feed? Rather than just hear mum baby's crying, it must be hungry. So you're starting to, one, take some of the pressure, ensure that you're becoming a team, which will help you feel more confident and help help them feel more confident in you.

But you're starting to understand, um, the needs of a child. So as much contact, handle them as much as you possibly can. Um, I did my, um, training, um, in the summer to do baby massage. So I run baby massage sessions for dad. So it's specifically just me as a dad and dad's in the room. Um, and the main point of it, massage is fantastic, but it was for confidence.

It was just to be more confident handling baby and holding baby and catering to the needs. And not that all baby's crying a pet sort of give back to mom. So the more that you can respond to them, the more you feel confident as a parent, the more that relationship will grow. So it is doing the things that help, like the skin to skin, which is lovely.

Having a baby fall asleep on you is an absolute joy. Being able to sort of sit and smell their head and all that wonderful stuff. But as your confidence grows, you allow yourself. To bond a little bit more 'cause you become confident. So it's, it's hands on. Um, improving that confidence. Whatever time you've got.

If you come home from work, you might have five, 10 minutes, five, 10 minutes of completely focused time. It's quite a lot of time really to be able to start to understand them. So it's, yeah, study them as much as you can. Um, be open to the fact that you might make mistakes and you might not be very good at everything, but you'll find that thing that you are, and it may be winding, it may, whatever it is.

And you just do that, just do that one thing as your confidence grows and you develop that relationship. So it's, yeah, trying to be as hands-on, um, and accept the fact that you won't be perfect at all of it is how I think we increase that bond. Mm. 

[00:31:44] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I love that answer. And, and I would just say on behalf of moms, sometimes we need to accept that dads won't be perfect and we need to keep our mouth shut.

And, and, and I think sometimes when someone's sleep deprived and they're in the early days of motherhood, it's so tempting to go, oh, no, no, don't do it like that. And, and we've got to make sure we understand that dads have have to practice. They don't necessarily get the hours that we do. You know, that whole thing about how it takes 10,000 hours to be a expert violinist.

You know, if dads are chucked back to work at two weeks, three weeks, you know, they're not gonna get those hours in the first six months that necessarily the, the primary care caregiver does. So we need to make sure that when dads have the opportunity, they, it can be really valued and, and really they can be given the time.

It takes time. You said before about how we don't automatically, you know, necessarily feel connected to our babies. A dad that doesn't feel bonded to their baby in the first two weeks is an absolutely normal, ordinary dad. Sure. I mean, there's nothing unusual about that. And if you, and if you look at your wife and think, gosh, she really is getting something out of this.

She's really connected to this baby in a way that I'm not, is there something wrong with me? The answer to that is no, there is not. You know, that's too totally normal and it just takes time and skin to skin holding. And I would just add in there, baby wearing, using a sling. Oh yeah, sorry. Yeah. Good. Seems a bit naff for some people, but gosh, no, go for it.

There are some brilliant slings out there that are made for dad's bodies. And actually, if you can hold baby in a sling, you know, when you get home from work, I'm sure your, your wife partner is really happy to hand baby over for a little bit, um, before the cluster feeding starts. Pot them the sling while you're making dinner.

It makes, you know, makes life a lot easier. Did you use slings with some of yours? 

[00:33:21] Scott Mair: Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up because I would've been in trouble if we didn't cover it. Um. Yeah, I, I wore slings with, we had the actual fancy looking, which I don't wanna use the, the name of the brands, but one of the main ones.

We, we had them ones and then Sarah became more of the Shaw type slings. Um, which I, I liked both, but I did quite like the sort of wraparound type one. Um, but I always had to get Sarah help me put it on. I did struggle with that a little bit, but the, the reason why I'm glad we brought that up. My, my son does it with my granddaughter.

Um, but we've got videos and photos of all of my younger boys wearing my granddaughter. So it's, we did a little sort of video about this, um, that this stuff can be taught, it can be taught at a very young age. We, we are, we, we do have that nurturing ability. Um, as males, we just sometimes don't tap into it, but no baby wearing and yeah, I wear my granddaughter quite a lot, even if we go out on walks and stuff.

So, no, I'm really glad you brought that up. Um, 'cause one of the sessions that we do is bring in the sling library in. Um, with new dads to sort of try and promote it. 'cause quite often we hear, I'd love to do it, I just don't know how to put it on properly or I don't feel fully confident. Or if I put it on, I'm still holding underneath.

I don't feel confident enough to let go and have my hands free to. So it's, it's not defying the point, but it's quite nice that have baby on you, make sure they're nice and safe and comfortable, and then sort of carry on with what you're doing. I've, I've seen dads that have sat on Zoom meetings with, that have got baby on a sling and they're just sort of sat there chatting away.

So, no, I'm, I'm really glad you brought that up because that is a really good tool and I, every time I see a dad wearing a sling, I'd sort of get that little sort of fuzzy feeling inside. Um, so it is nice, but the first time I did it was with my eldest and I was ex, I'm ex army, so the first time I did it was in a, a, a military camp and we have TES scores with most of the camps.

I'm walking around TES scores and I've got my son, but I'm in military uniform. And you know, there was that sort of occasional look of it is this sort of guy I think he is. And I think that bit was starting to move on a little bit from I think it's become, we're much more comfortable. Um, but I do often say that with having seven boys, if, if, if Sarah took all of my boys on holiday to Australia on her own, nobody bat an eyelid.

You know, if, if I take three of my boys to the park, I'm sort of father of the year. So, so, so there is still, there's a difference. Um, but I think we have become a little bit more comfortable in, in seeing dads carrying their baby. But, um, Pierce Morgan a few years ago made a comment 

[00:35:51] Emma Pickett: Oh, I saw that the blooming Daniel Craig graph.

Yeah. 

[00:35:53] Scott Mair: And that did a lot of damage water, 

[00:35:55] Emma Pickett: tosser water toss. I sorry. It did a lot of damage. No. Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:35:57] Scott Mair: Don't be sorry 'cause I Do you talk 

[00:35:58] Emma Pickett: about, talk about being le less of a man or something, uh, when the absolute opposite is the case. Yeah, yeah. That was just, yeah, I mean, if, you know, if you know Pi Morgan, you know that Yeah.

That he was obviously saying that to get the hits and get the attention and, 

[00:36:10] Scott Mair: but it did damage to particularly some of the younger, more impressionable, I'm not saying that only young parents are impressionable, um, but there was a little bit of it. It did, it changed, it changed the narrative. And then there was a couple of, um, professional football players that were doing skin to skin and there was pictures and then you sort of read the comments, um, and lots of people that weren't very nice in the comment section.

So going back to the two main things that we know help with bonding, we've got people out there sort of criticizing it and I think it's sometimes quite difficult to, to, to not be influenced. Um, that's why I'm really glad my first two children, possibly even three children were before social media. So I was never really exposed to that constant, um, images that you see, what's right and what's.

[00:36:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah, we'll talk about social media in a minute's. Positives and negatives. There

a little advert just to say that you can buy my four books online. You've got it in you. A Positive Guide to Breastfeeding is 99 p as an ebook, and that's aimed at expectant and new parents. The Breast book published by PRA Martin is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed.

And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding For a 10% discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code MPE 10 Makes milk. Pick it, Emma. 10. Thanks. Okay, so I love this next question.

We're still in the early days, but I want to help my partner to get as much sleep as possible, but she's reluctant for me to give a bottle. How do we get the balance right in protecting the breastfeeding, but also giving her a rest? Can I go first on one? I was just gonna ask you that. So I was gonna say, so o obviously the step one is, why is she reluctant to give a bottle?

And it's not about convincing her out of that, it's about trying to understand where that's coming from. You know, what's been her breastfeeding history, you know, where the bottles in the early days and she's worked really hard to get back to exclusive breastfeeding. We've got to understand where she's coming from to be able to have this conversation.

And obviously this dad's motivations are in absolutely the right place. I mean, you can tell he's wanting to, to maximize sleep and he's, you know, really worried that his partner's not getting enough sleep. We do have a lovely bit of research that actually shows that exclusively breastfeeding moms get better quality sleep overnight than moms that partially feed.

So we do need to bear that in mind. But I would also say as a lactation consultant, you know, we don't have a lot of evidence that bottles are gonna make a massive difference to breastfeeding success. Most people in the UK will give some bottles alongside breastfeeding and you know, if it's exclusively breast milk fed, we really don't have evidence that's gonna cause any issues at all and make any necessary long-term impacts.

I think there are some myths around, you know, nipple confusion or flow confusion. But to be honest, once you've cracked the breastfeeding latching in the early days and breastfeeding's comfortable, adding in the odd bottle is really unlikely to make an issue around the feeding. But it might sometimes impact on milk supply.

So if, for example, a mum is going six hours or eight hours and you are saying to your partner, come on, I want you to have a whole night's sleep. You know, let me give the bottle the whole night that isn't super sensible. That is possibly gonna increase risk of mastitis and blocked ducts and could impact on milk supply negatively.

That could have an impact of several days, or even in the longer term. So if your partner's reluctant because she's worried about milk production, that may be coming from a sensible place. So it may be the answer is for her to miss one breastfeed and then come back to breastfeeding afterwards. So quite a common pattern is a mom who's really exhausted, struggling after a difficult birth, really trying to maximize sleep.

You know, she might do all the cluster feeding in the evening and we, you know, we could do another hour talking about cluster feeding. Then she might go to bed at nine. Dad might be on duty from, let's say, nine to midnight. He might have one bottle of milk and he might potentially bottle feed at that point, and then mom's back breastfeeding again after midnight.

That's quite a common pattern. Some families will do a version of that, so dad's on duty, but not necessarily with the bottle. And the agreement is that if baby wakes up, I'll try all my techniques. If they're still not settling, I'll bring them to you for a feed and I'll take 'em away again straight away.

And you will be, you will not have the con, you know that, that the film Crimson Tide, when you're in charge of the submarine, you've got the con. If you've got the con, you know, you mentally you can't relax, you can't switch off. Um, you know, if, even if the mum knows you are going to bring the baby to me, if the baby needs to feed, but I don't have to keep an ear out.

I don't have to stay in that lighter phase of sleep. I can relax knowing you've got the con, that can make quite a difference. So it's possible to do that support and maximize sleep without giving the bottle. But it is also possible to give a bottle occasionally with breastfeeding, without there being any negative impact, as long as we're only missing maybe one feed in the early weeks.

Is that, is that a comfortable answer for you, Scott? How would that feel? 

[00:41:22] Scott Mair: That is perfect. The only thing I would ask, and it comes up quite a lot because you hear bits of information is what's like, where's your stance on dream feeding? 

[00:41:33] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So dream feeding for anyone who doesn't know is the idea that.

You know, when an adult's going to bed, why not squeeze a bit more milk into the baby just before they're going to bed? So let's imagine the baby's gone down at seven. You are gonna go to bed at 10, baby might wake up again at 11 or 12. To be honest, it makes logical sense for me to squeeze as much milk into baby as you can when you are awake and alert.

So if you are gonna go to to bed at, you know, 10 and baby's gonna wake up an hour later, that's obviously a bit of a pain. So why not try and get a bit more milk into baby? So, no, I think dream feeding can absolutely work, but it, you can, you can dream feed to breastfeed, um, that is an option too. Um, doesn't have to necessarily be a bottle.

Um, and yeah, I think to be honest, when it comes to breastfeeding, there are very few hard and fast rules and anybody that tells you that this thing is bad and this thing isn't allowed, we just need to check where that evidence is coming from. Because quite often, you know, families will make systems that work for them.

But I guess the, the key part of that question is she's reluctant, so we need to understand that. 

[00:42:36] Scott Mair: Yeah. It's 

[00:42:36] Emma Pickett: not your job to say, well, look, here's an article about how it doesn't matter. And, and this lactation consultant on this podcast said, it's okay to give a bottle, um, that, you know, it's, my voice is not the one that matters.

The, the voice that matters is, is your partner. So, so where are they coming from on that? And, and where's that reluctance coming from? 

[00:42:52] Scott Mair: Brilliant answer. And, and yeah, I think it's the communication part we, we touched on. Again, it's having that, I think we're very quick to look at the, the what, and I think it's maybe getting a bit more uncomfortable with the why's, um, and sort of having these conversations.

So yeah, I, I've got nothing to add. If I had to, I think the one thing I would add is that maybe. Doing a little bit more before you get to bedtime so that there's the option of an earlier night and taking off some of the other response and anything else that would be taking that time that isn't feeding.

But you've already mentioned that with the taking everything else away, which is my top tip in that situation would be you do everything else. Um, and then it is literally just not just the feeding part. I don't mean it in that way, but it means that everything else is sort of taken care of, which you saw perfectly explained.

So yeah, that would've been all I would've added. But yeah. Thank you very much. That was a really good answer. I dunno why I'm saying Thank you. It's your podcast. Thank you. No, 

[00:43:46] Emma Pickett: no, I thank you. I like, no, I like it. I like that. Um, okay, next question. Do you have any, and then we've sort of touched on this, but I think it's important to kind of reaffirm, reaffirm it again.

Do you have any tips for building up a new dad's confidence in caring for baby when the solution to every problem seems to be breastfeeding? Every time I left the baby with my partner, he'd call me back in two minutes because the baby got upset, looked sleepy, or dad thought he was signaling hunger or that he was looking for me.

It took the baby starting solids for my partner to gain confidence in spending time alone with him 

[00:44:18] Scott Mair: again, if it's any comfort, quite common. Um, the introducing the, the solids and, and the weaning stages where we start to feel a little bit more comfortable. Um, I joked at the beginning about the dark side, you know, when dads came, when babies came to me a little bit more, um, it was a confidence thing with me.

They're a little bit bigger, a little bit more robust. They can start to communicate, which we sometimes find easier. We also know, um, that I do a lot of work with Neurodiverse parents, um, and sometimes understanding the cues that we mentioned is a little bit more challenging. So it's as they become a little bit older, we are more comfortable because they can communicate, they can show in different ways whether it is that they're looking for, and, and sometimes that's why.

They're more invested at that stages. They can understand the communication with the child a little bit more. But in general, it is the stuff that we touched on. It's, it's trying to improve that confidence. It's just studying them, it's understanding them. Um, and sometimes it seems, um, not necessarily pointless, but you know, when dad's talking to me, just watch them sleep.

You know, just watch them sleep and see what it is that they're doing. Try and understand, like I said, you'll listen. There is a difference in, in those cries, and I think it's just, it takes time. But the one number, one tip by doing there is to just find that one thing that, one thing that he is quite confident with.

Because what we've also got to remember sometimes is what got us to this stage that why that we just mentioned is I see it all the time. Dad holds baby in the hospital. And the in-laws can be a bit of a problem here sometimes, but so can the parents. So it's not sort of, um, one sided, but it's the, that you're taking too long with getting baby ready, not let me do that.

And sometimes even professionals will do that in the hospital. Um, or you're doing that wrong, let me do it, or let mom do it because you know, she might do it quicker and you're sort of pushing them out from the very beginning and then it's, oh, you're not maybe holding baby correctly, you're not supporting the neck a little bit more, you know, give baby back to mom.

And, and so rather than showing them an alternative way or on the job learning, we're sort of removing it, which sort of diminishes any confidence. It's already there, um, by the way in which we interact with them. So it's trying to promote that as much as you can. And yes, it's a bit like the feeding, it's the well done.

You know, I know people say, oh, it's, it's, it is difficult to do that when you're recovering and you've got a baby, and I get that. And if there's family around you, it's just trying to positively reinforce where that confidence, um, is lacking. But it's finding the things that they do do, they are quite comfortable with.

Um, and then as they sort of master that one particular part, the confidence will, will naturally grow. And the time that they are being left is we just do it in short periods. So it might be that you just go for a shower, um, yeah. And then he's gotta sort of figure it out and then you just sort of extend it ever so slightly that that would be my tip.

[00:47:00] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, the thing about, um, going for a shower is a good one. You are on duty for 20 minutes. A breastfed baby is not gonna start to death in 20 minutes. Yeah. And, and actually I would add don't be frightened of your baby being upset. Oh, that's good point. You know, if you think, if you think, you know, I, I'm holding my baby for two minutes and baby's crying.

I'm, I'm, I, I know breastfeeding is gonna shut this up, so I'll hand it over. Sometimes babies will cry and we're gonna learn more about them if we hold them and we work, we experiment and we try the rocking and we try the, the singing and you know, sing your favorite diet straight song or whatever it's gonna be, you're gonna make a connection with that baby through practice.

And there is nothing more magic than a dad who's worked out the special trick that settles the baby after a feed. Um, and you'll only get there by practicing and that will mean some bit time with your baby crying in your arms. And to know that that's natural and that's okay and your baby's not coming to harm is I think really important.

And that's also from the mom's point of view, understanding your, the baby will not come to harm if they are crying in your, in your partner's arms. You've got to let your partner practice different techniques and strategies. 

[00:48:09] Scott Mair: What a brilliant tip. And, and it is that, that rocking, I'm visualizing it as you're saying it.

Um, because it, I sometimes stand in the living room or I'll be given a training session. I'll be at the front of the, and and I'll be doing the PowerPoint and I'm sort of still rocking from side to side because I've had my granddaughter the night before. And you just sort of become comfortable in that rock.

But yeah, it, it does take time. And the music, um, I'm really glad you said that, that that's a lot of the work that we do is we create playlists. But what I've found, and, and we actually did a piece on this where we spoke to dads about the songs that they sing to their children. 95% of those dads did not sing nursery rhyme.

And I think sometimes we push the, and it's like, well, I don't, I won't sing them because I don't know the nursery rhymes, but like you said, they know Dire Straits or Oasis or Pink Floyd or Westlake, and 

[00:48:56] Emma Pickett: that that's the song that they're going to be able to co-regulate their child with. So co-regulation is our emotional stability rubbing off on a little person.

And if we are singing a song that we like and we love and our voice is confident, that's gonna rub off on that little person. If we're trying to sing, you know, wheels on the Bus and we dunno the words, we're not gonna be having that emotional stability. So, absolutely. The, the dad songs are super important.

[00:49:20] Scott Mair: Oh, and, and I, I don't claim please, anybody listening to this and to you as well, I, I, I don't claim to be Father of the Year or grandfather of the year, nowhere near it. Not husband of the year either. But this does work and I genuinely believe that, particularly the music. Um, my house are all big fans of country music.

Um, and there's a country singer called Luke Combs and he's got a song called Hurricane. Um, and that became the song that I just naturally sang. Um, I don't, I'm not gonna burst into song, Emma. Don't worry. No, 

[00:49:49] Emma Pickett: I dunno. How writes work would we have to pay music? Right? I, 

[00:49:53] Scott Mair: so, so this is a song I sing and, and she's now seven and a half months old.

And her dad was cooking dinner, um, for her mom in the kitchen yesterday and he had the Alexa on. And that song, that particular song, hurricane, came on the playlist and, and I've got my granddaughter sat next to me and as the song's come on, she's turned and she's looked at me. So she's already connecting the power of that song.

Oh, that so cute. Um, and I just sort of sat there. I had this big sort of smile on my face and I called my wife and I says, look, she just sat staring at me. I think she was waiting and then I started singing it and I got that sort of smile. Um, she's not smiling at the singing. Don't worry about that. But she's, so it does, you know, that that pow power of music is so incredible and if it is nursery rams, that's fine, but it's just being comfortable.

With the soothing and the singing and the communicating. And if you're not comfortable with that, just talking to them, 

[00:50:39] Emma Pickett: talking, I, I heard a thing the other day, did you see this online? Some dad who was an atomic scientist to put sochar to bear by telling them about atoms. Oh, that's amazing. I didn't see that.

And I think the kids said, tell us about atom's daddy. Um, so that's just his routine and you know, it doesn't have to be no. Some magic imaginative story. Some dads are like, I dunno how to tell a story. I haven't done that for, for donkeys years. But, you know, you don't have to be the person that tells a story, that just talk about your, your life, talk about your day, talk about you.

[00:51:06] Scott Mair: And, and the, the last thing I would add on that in, in the confidence bit is if someone's got the opportunity, these conversations mean that they're already in it. Um, so it may be for next time, or it might be for anybody else that's listening, starting that early while they're still in the womb, um, is one of the things I always try and promote antenatally.

So it is talking to them, but it's using the language and the tones that you use every day. So nursery rhymes are great. We know the benefits of rhyme in terms of development of language. But read your emails. If you're watching Netflix, read the hypnosis and just get used to talking to baby, getting, trying to develop that understanding of that voice, which there is limited research that they can create that connection.

Um, but it's for you. It's for you to interact and to talk to and just to get com. If you can talk to your partners. I called it a bump, whatever you call it. Um, then you can develop a confidence to talk to a baby. Yeah, so it's just learning as you're going along. And then the interaction they're gonna kick, sometimes they're gonna kick if you are rubbing some oil, if your partner's comfortable with that.

My wife used to like it, especially sometimes on the hips towards the end of the pregnancy when she's a bit sore. Um, so just sort of give the stomach a little bit of a massage, but as you're interacting, they're gonna kick and you can take that however you want. They could just be kicking anyway. It doesn't matter if you are there or you can start to see that as the interaction.

And it just, it creates that bond, it creates that connection. Um, so you don't have to wait till the little one starts. Same as reading. If you want to get reading now. Just get used to sort of reading those, whatever the stories are, or having these conversations. It's just the talking and communicating so that you can soothe them and be more confident, like you said, you can try everything else.

Before you say right here, can you put the baby on the boob and try and fix this problem? At least then you're working as a team, um, which is what we're trying to promote. 

[00:52:51] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. Okay. Let's talk about breastfeeding in public. Someone says, how can we reduce the embarrassment some dads face with breastfeeding in public.

[00:53:00] Scott Mair: Do you wanna go first on this one again? 

[00:53:02] Emma Pickett: Um, I would say that that's true for women too. I think, you know, everyone feels a bit, sometimes a bit awkward about breastfeeding in public. I don't think that's specific to dads necessarily. Um, so, uh, my experience is that most people worry about it, but actually once they do it, it's not an issue.

Um, and it's very, very rare for anyone to get a comment or a negative comment. And I actually think sometimes dads might worry about that in theory before baby comes. But when they're actually there with their partner, with their baby, you know, this big daddy bear protective vibe will come out and they're, they're not gonna be worried about the, the looks from the person next to them on the table next to them.

They're gonna be worried about how their partner's feeling. They're gonna be wanting to make sure their baby's fed. Um, and, and just center your focus on, on your partner and the baby. Don't, don't worry about anyone else. I would honestly say, don't even look. Yeah. You know, if you're a glasses wearer, take your glasses off.

Don't even look around to see what everyone else is doing, because if you catch the eye of somebody else, you might catch someone's eye who's rolling their eyes. So don't look for it. Um, just think about how your partner's feeling. Think about what you can do to support that feed in that moment. Really good tip.

And if you do feel a bit embarrassed, no one's gonna blame you for that. That's normal and natural. We haven't grown up seeing breastfeeding around us, most of us. You know, you don't have to try and drive that embarrassment out of your body. It's not some evil feeling that's wrong. It's really normal and natural.

Accept that in yourself, but also just, just focus on baby and focus on your partner. 

[00:54:27] Scott Mair: Brilliant. And I think that the only bit I would add is the professional aspect which parents can't control is that you mentioned it and the beginning, there's sometimes the removal from that conversation when we start talking about it, that doesn't reduce any embarrassment.

It actually heightens it. Um, because we do sometimes, and this is both, this is both parents and, and just society in general, we sexualize the breast. So that's the bit that sometimes is uncomfortable with the public feeding. And if we are excluding them from the conversation around feeding, we're not doing anything to reduce the fact that it's something you should be embarrassed about.

Yeah. Whereas if we bring them into that conversation and becoming more comfortable around the fact of what it is actually there for and its purpose, and that you've just said perfectly, that people are really not always paying that much attention and just focus on yourselves. So if we could add a little bit more in terms of the education and the conversation around it to bring them into it for no other reason, then it reduces that, um, the, the embarrassment or the uncomfortableness.

And if they've got more education, more understanding, they become more of a support so that there's so many benefits to include them in that conversation. And not trying to enh heighten the embarrassment by keeping them outta that conversation. But that's more professional than parent. 

[00:55:40] Emma Pickett: Yeah, definitely.

Okay. Next question. How do I know when I'm moving from encouraging my wife to breastfeed when it's hard to guilting her or forcing her to feed? 

[00:55:50] Scott Mair: Yeah. We touched on that, didn't we? Um, very fine line. I, I personally believe, um, and I think it communication, again, everything seems to come down to communication.

I think it's, you know, your person most often better than somebody else. Um, and they might not have done this before, but you probably be able to read some of the signs between, I can't do this anymore and I'm finding it a little bit difficult and challenging. And sometimes they might look similar, but I think it's trying to have that, that conversation and be honest and say, look, I want to be supportive, but I need you to be able to tell me if I'm doing too much.

If I'm going too far, am I pushing too much? That's not the intention. The intention is to offer you support. We haven't done this before, so I don't know where that line for support is. I need you to know, I'm just trying to help. But if it ever feels like it's not, I need us to be able to have that conversation.

Other than that, I think it is just trying. To make sure that you are just having the conversations when they're there, you're offering support, you're giving them chance to voice any concerns that they've got, like you mentioned at the beginning, before you get to that stage, finding out what's available in terms of support in the area, getting the, the, the support that might be from peer supporters that might work in the community, from whoever's in your community that may be able to offer that assistance or support so that if you feel like you are maybe giving too much encouragement, it can be, well, here's some advice.

Maybe sort of get some advice. So it's not necessarily coming from me, but these are the places that you can, you can get that advice and then I will support whatever you need and, and that, that would probably be all that I would add to that, but I'll be led by you. 

[00:57:30] Emma Pickett: No, I think that was great. I think, I think one of the things I'd probably say is you just have to take it day by day and if a, and if someone says, oh my God, I can't do this anymore, I've gotta give up.

You don't necessarily have to say anything in that moment. You don't necessarily have to respond to that with Absolutely. Let's, let's, let's give up now. Let's work. Let me work out how to transform, you know, well, let's research formula, let's work. You don't have to come up with the, the practical answer to that question.

Sometimes you just absorb that energy, let it happen and go, yeah, I hear you understand. I know this is hard. Um, because sometimes people will say that without necessarily wanting you to leap on it as a definite reason to end things. Um, and I would just say that, you know, sometimes when you are a dad, watching your partner go through a difficult time, you know, being literally in physical pain, it's really tempting to want to fix that.

Yeah. And, and you, you can't really fix that because what happens around feeding has to be kind of, I use the word future proof quite a lot. You want to look back in 10 years time and know that, that you were, you weren't the one that pushed a decision in any direction. So it's super hard 'cause you want to be the fixer and you want to solve the problems, but you just have to kind of reflect what they're saying.

You know, absorb their energy, try and give them emotional support, but, but not necessarily push them to either decision in any direction. Brilliant advice. And it's, it's a skill. It's a skill. I'm not saying it's easy. Um, they may even say, what do you think I should do? And, you know, hard to answer that question when you really want to say, I don't want to answer that question.

Um, but it's just, you know, what's, what's going on today? What can we do today? Is there someone we can talk to? Is there a, is it worth calling a helpline? What's the actual problem right now? Um, you don't have to decide today if you're gonna end breastfeeding. And also lots of people do mixed feeding. You know that the idea that it's, it's a black and white thing is, is not necessarily true either.

Um, okay. So I'm gonna realize we're coming up on an hour now, which in podcast world is considered. I, I, I'm gonna be cheeky Scott, and say, can I get you back for another session? 'cause I have a feeling we're gonna, we're gonna need to nut to keep talking about this, but this is a really important question, so I wanna make sure we get this one in.

Okay. How do I stop feeling jealous of my wife and baby's connection? I should be happy, but I feel left out 

[00:59:47] Scott Mair: again. Very, very common. Very, very natural. Um, and it's something that we work on quite a lot. Everything seems to go back to communication. It's trying to have that conversation, um, about how you are feeling.

But it's going back to the, the connection. You know, it, it's trying to, what we do, and again, everyone's got their own opinion on this, and this is what I've learned from my experience, is we're trying to compare our journeys. We're not on the same journey. Um, and sometimes there is a faster connection with one parent than the is the other.

It's predominantly the person that carries and gives birth to the baby. Not always, but predominantly it is. And it's, we're trying to compare to where they are. And realistically, again, going back to the breastfeeding, just focus on that bit. The bit that you can control your relationship with your child is the bit that you try and focus on.

So it's natural to look and think, God, she's making it look so much easier than I am. Or baby so much happier. They settle so much more with baby. But it's trying to work on the bit that you can control, which is your relationship with them and try and blend the two together. Um, is one of the bits, I say this all the time apart from breastfeeding, I genuinely believe there's nothing that my wife, Sarah can do as a parent that I can't.

She's better at all of it. I've never disputed that. But it was learning what I've just said then. That sometimes we are doing things differently. We have different strengths as they develop children learn. What they need and who they need it from. They learn that very, very quickly and there will be things that they've not experienced yet that when they do, they're gonna lean towards the other parent.

It be different things. And as they get older, like in my house, my boys go to Sarah for finance, they go for money, they go to mom all the time. But for that sort of emotional support or practical support, they come to dad. If they're not well, they go to mom. If they're scared, they come to dad. So if they woke up with a nightmare, they come to dad.

If they wake up, don't feel very well, they've got a sore throat and they can't swallow 'cause it's all support. They, they go to mommy and you've got to learn to work together. Whereas in the beginning you are just seeing what's happening in those first few weeks or first few months and they will be leaning to one person 'cause that's safe.

That's all they know. That's, they know those smells, that heartbeat, that sound, that's where they know they feel safe. And we don't really want to break that 'cause we want them to feel safe. And it's just working on that little bit of studying them, um, understanding, numb the skin to skin, the sling wear and all of these things to improve that relationship.

And again, owning it and giving yourself permission that, oh, I should, I shouldn't feel like this. It's really bad. No, it's okay. It's quite natural to feel like this, um, because you're gonna become a little bit competitive. 'cause you both want this. You wanna be the favorite. We all sort of wanna be the favorite.

Um, and we struggle with that sometimes. So it would just be the focus on your relationship with your, your child, but accept the fact that it's a natural feeling to feel like that. And most of us, if we're being honest, I've felt like that. I think most dads of our work with at one point will feel like that.

And sometimes if babies bonding more, um, with dad, which we do see quite a lot, it's, I'm the one that carried and gave birth to that baby and they just want him all of the time. So it does go both ways. 

[01:02:56] Emma Pickett: It does go both ways. I was gonna say, and when your 6-year-old, you know, wants to spend a day with dad and you know you're not part of that, the mom's gonna have her turn.

It it, you know, but it's harder at the beginning. Yeah. When everyone's learning to be a parent. And you know, as you say, new roles are developing and new people are changing and it can feel more painful at the very beginning. 'cause you think, well, is this it forever now? Am I gonna feel second best forever?

Yeah. It's rejection. Yeah, it does. It can feel like a rejection. And, and that, that's, as you say, that's completely natural. I think sometimes there is some deep stuff going on there about relationships with our own moms. Mm-hmm. I mean, if you are a bloke and maybe your relationship with your mom isn't great, you know, you know, we're not gonna, we will disappear and pay for expensive therapy.

But let's be honest, sometimes some of these triggers are subconscious stuff on deep levels. Um, so we need to sort of own that and try and think about that a little bit. But ultimately, if your child has that amazing foundation of that relationship with, with your partner, that foundation makes them a more confident, trusting, happy little person who's then absolutely gonna run to you with open arms.

Brilliant. You know, when the time comes. 

[01:04:02] Scott Mair: So celebrate it. Embrace it. 

[01:04:04] Emma Pickett: Yeah. It's, it's, and, and you, you know, as the mom holds the baby, you hold both of them. I mean, literally and metaphorically, your job is to kind of, to look after both of them and be part of that connection by supporting the unit. We sometimes talk about that word dyad, which means that the mum and the baby are not actually separate people at the beginning, and the baby literally doesn't think it's a separate person.

It thinks it's very much connected to the mums. So, um, you know, there's some biological stuff going on there that we can't always apply logic to. Um, you know, some deep feeling stuff that we sometimes just have to, as you say, just watch, watch and observe and learn and, and sit back from, and realize that we're talking about weeks, maybe months, but your baby's around for years, decades, and that you're gonna, you're gonna have a chance to, to form that relationship in a really special way.

Perfect. Um, okay, Scott, I'm actually gonna suggest we pause there. I'm gonna be really cheeky and say I have literally 10 more questions here and loads of them on natural term breastfeeding, which we haven't touched on at all. So I would love to do another whole episode with you and particularly talk about natural term breastfeeding, which I think, um, you know, not all dads are, are confident about or know a lot, a lot about is, is that, would that be okay?

I, I know it's a bit cheeky to bring that one you. No, it's not cheeky at all. Definitely. So I'm gonna suggest that when we finish, we, we get our diaries together and maybe look, you know, in know next month and see, or the month after and see what's around and, and we will come back to this topic, dads and breastfeeding because it's so important.

But I'm so grateful for your time today. You are a wise man, I would say. Um, I'm really in awe of, of how you look at things and, and not just from your experience as a dad, but also just, just your experience in supporting other dads as well. So I'm really excited to continue this conversation. Thank you very much for today.

[01:05:44] Scott Mair: Thank you very much. As am I looking forward to it too.

[01:05:51] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well, get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.