Phoebe's story - moving to exclusive pumping

This week’s episode is a prime example of how everyone’s situation is unique, and every solution must be too. 

My guest is Phoebe, a nurse from Paris, France. Phoebe shares her experiences, including her initial plans to breastfeed, facing issues like inverted nipples, her daughter Adele’s jaundice and weight loss, and conflicting advice from healthcare professionals. At four months postpartum, after much hard work, Phoebe is now exclusively pumping. She details her current routine of pumping five times daily, managing milk storage, and preparing to return to work while continuing to provide breast milk for Adele.

Phoebe recommends this Instagram account for French speakers - @‌madametirelait

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end.

And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too. Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm going to be talking to Phoebe. That's Phoebe Linden Burn, who is from Paris, France. And we're gonna be talking about her decision to move to exclusive pumping with her daughter Adele. Adele is four months old today. Happy four month old birthday.

Are we allowed to celebrate four months phobia? I think we should be able, able to celebrate four months. Yes, definitely. Especially with everything you've been through. We're gonna talk about the decision to move to exclusive pumping and, and how you made that decision in the context of the breastfeeding support that was available to you and, and how you feel about that decision today.

Thank you so much for joining me today, Phoebe. I really appreciate it. It 

[00:01:24] Phoebe: No problem. Happy to be here. 

[00:01:25] Emma Pickett: So, so I guess one thing I'd like to just start by saying is bloody well done for exclusive pumping. Thank, thank you. I, I, I know, I know how hard it is and it is such an achievement and you shouldn't feel incredibly proud to have overcome all your challenges and, and be able to exclusively feed Adele breast milk.

And, and one of the things I'm gonna ask you about before we talk about your history is that. My experience of working with exclusively pumping moms is you can kind of be torn between two worlds, like the moms that give formula feel quite uncomfortable with sometimes with your decision to exclusively pump because it feels as though you're judging the decision to give formula and then the moms that breastfeed don't quite know where to place you either.

So you kind of feel like you're in the middle. Is that a fair description of how, how you've been finding things? 

[00:02:10] Phoebe: Yeah, definitely. I think there is like the idea that exclusive meat pumping is not really seen as breastfeeding. And you often feel like you have to advocate for it. You have to have to say, well, actually this is breast milk.

This is another way of breastfeeding. Obviously it's not the traditional way of seeing it, so it's always, you are always having to explain it quite well. 

[00:02:29] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't think anybody in the lactation world would doubt that you were breastfeeding and, and exclusively breast milk feeding. Um, Adele for sure.

With an enormous amount of effort because it's something you've got to do. Your brain has to constantly be thinking, logistics. Logistics the whole time, but we'll talk about that when we get there. Before we talk about your current life exclusively pumping. Tell me a little bit about life before you had Adele.

When you were pregnant with Adele, what were your feelings around infant feeding? What were your experiences of breastfeeding? 

[00:02:57] Phoebe: Um, so I was, uh, very keen to breastfeed because, um, I was breastfed myself as a baby and my mom had a really good experience with me and I had a very positive view of breastfeeding.

So when I got pregnant, the pregnancy was going really well, and soon after that I had the question, are you going to breastfeed or give formula for me? It was. Obvious I was going to breastfeed. There was no discussion about it. I was really keen to do it. I knew it could be tricky. Um, 'cause I, I'm actually a nurse in my profession, so I have worked on maternity units before, so I knew a bit about it.

And, um, I decided to do a lot of research while I was pregnant and while I had the time. Uh, so I went to antenatal classes in France. I read some books about, uh, breastfeeding. I, um, met with a lactation consultant beforehand. Uh, that was Oh, wow. Well done. You really did. 

[00:03:46] Emma Pickett: You really did get prepared. Yeah. So you're half French, half English, just for anyone who's wondering you with, and you're obviously completely, completely bilingual.

I am rubbish at French, so I'm not going to, uh, I was on the train this weekend and there was a French family on the tube and they would, they couldn't quite work out where they were going, and this elderly man sitting next to them went, I speak French, and the lady said, oh, do you? And he went, yes. Pity ua.

Very useful. Okay. That's not really gonna help in this moment, mate, but I appreciate where you're coming from, so I'm not gonna try and speak French to you. Um, so, but the situation in France, when it comes to breastfeeding support, I guess, have you, have you ever lived in England? Is that something you have?

Yes. 

[00:04:23] Phoebe: I actually, uh, lived, I actually trained as a nurse in English, um, in England. Sorry. I lived in Norwich for three years and then when I qualified, I moved to London and worked there for a year in the NHS and then came back. 

[00:04:34] Emma Pickett: Okay. I love Norwich. That's where I went to university. Um, oh. So what's the difference between the sort of French system and the English system?

Are there more lactation consultants in France? Would you say that people have a fairly good level of training when it comes to lactation support? What's your gut feeling? 

[00:04:50] Phoebe: Um, I think the French system is not as good as the British one. Um, so traditionally when I was born, I was born in 93 and um, my dad really wanted, um, my mom to breastfeed.

And really encouraged her to do so. But my mum was very discouraged at that time. I know in the nineties, breastfeeding was really not a thing. Like women would just be encouraged to use formula and now it's got a bit better. I think breastfeeding has kind of got back, it's, it's kind of a trend. So it's been back for a few years, but I still feel like there's not, um, enough training for healthcare professionals.

So when you look at, um, doctors, they're not necessarily trained, uh, on breastfeeding. It's an optional module, so you can choose to train if you want to, but you don't have to. Okay. And I wouldn't say, I'd say it's, it's not really the norm. And the thing is in France is you tend to go back to work quite early on after having the baby.

So a lot of women don't necessarily want to breastfeed because by the time you get your breastfeeding sorted and up and going, you have to go back to work. And that just brings a whole lot of, um, difficulties. So, okay. 

[00:05:56] Emma Pickett: But, but having said that, though, in America, people go back to work very early, very little maternity leave, and their breastfeeding rates are higher than the uk so.

So, so there's something cultural going on, on, in addition to the work situation. Um, but you do have lactation consultants in France? We do. And, and when you give birth, are you going to be in a UNICEF baby friendly setting? What's the situation with sort of UNICEF baby friendly? 

[00:06:20] Phoebe: Um, so as, um, a pregnant woman, um, expecting a baby, you can choose your maternity unit.

So I, I'm lucky to live in Paris. So I have, I had a lot of hospitals available to me. Um, I chose to, um, go in the maternity that I was born in. Um, oh. But you can go into like baby friendly maternity. I did look at the, um, the stats of my maternity units and they did say that 80% of women leaving the hospital were breastfeeding.

So I thought that was quite positive. Okay. 

[00:06:50] Emma Pickett: Gosh, you did your research, didn't you feed? I did, I did. Yeah. I can definitely hear you. Did. Tell us about your personal experience then. Tell us about you. Giving birth. What was your birth with Adele like? What was it that first 24 hours, like 

[00:07:01] Phoebe: quite wild. Um, so the pregnancy went really well and then the birth date came and went, and I still had no contractions, nothing at all.

So they decided to induce me. Um, so I was induced and I was told, um, things would probably take a few days just to get, you know, labor actually actively starting. But, um, once Adele decided to come out, she was coming out. It's only 12 hours, and within 12 hours she was here. So it was quite fast, but it went really well.

I was really well supported. I think being a nurse really helped too. I understood what was going on. I'd read a lot about childbirth also. So, um, yeah, it went really well and I was very keen to have that first skin to skin contact as soon as she was born. So they were very helpful with that. She was straight onto my chest and within the first hour they tried to get her to help me just get her to latch and, um.

Things went quite, seemed to go quite well. Obviously it was a bit tricky, but I'd read a lot about it and the midwives were quite nice. They just helped me get her to the breasts and she seemed quite content with it. So the first two days, I'd say went quite well. Um, obviously it was a bit tricky. I would just call every time it was time for her to feed.

So just to make sure. I was putting her properly onto the breasts and she seemed to latch quite well, so things were not too bad. Um, the only thing is I did have, um, inverted nipples and I was told during pregnancy that it would make breastfeeding harder. It's one of those common things you get within inverted nipples as you automatically told that it'll just be.

You know, a problem with breastfeeding, they gave me nipple shield straight away at the, um, at the hospital, which I wasn't very keen about. 'cause I'd read about them and I knew they could sometimes, uh, be problematic. Um, but um, in the end I just had to use them. So they seemed to work quite well. I 

[00:08:49] Emma Pickett: mean, it's difficult, isn't it, when you get told that very negative messaging in pregnancy without necessarily then getting.

A full set of support. Alongside that, I mean it, it's really difficult 'cause yes, inverted nipples can sometimes make breastfeeding more challenging, but lots of people breastfeed absolutely successfully with the right support and the right information. So nipple shields in the very early days normally aren't recommended just because of colostrum not passing through the nipple shield.

It tends to get stuck in the nipple shield. Um, but you find, you found that Adele wasn't really attaching without the shields. Is that right? 

[00:09:20] Phoebe: Yeah, it was really hard. I tried to get her to latch without the shield, but she just wouldn't, so I just started using them. I realized they seemed to be working.

She seemed to be getting milk, so I just thought, well, you know, I'll just have to use them for a while, see how it goes. Um, so the midwives at the hospital weren't necessarily very well trained in breastfeeding. They didn't have the level of a lactation consultants, so I had the idea to go and see the consultant as soon as I left the hospital.

But the problem is on the second day, she had JA disc, which made her very tired. So she had to have this, um, phototherapy 

[00:09:51] Emma Pickett: Yep. 

[00:09:51] Phoebe: Treatment for a night. And that just made her very tired. And that was about the same time as my milk came in, and I had the first engorgement. So, um, she started suddenly having a lot of trouble feeding, just falling asleep at the breast, getting really fussy.

My breasts were very hard, so she couldn't really get the milk to transfer properly. Um, so the midwives, I was a bit distressed at this point because we were due to go home the next day and the midwives just kept saying, oh, it's fine. Just give her a bit of formula. And I wasn't really happy about that, but they just had to feed her.

A formula for syringe just to get her to feed 'cause she was so hungry and it would just be so hard. So to get her to feed. So I was a bit disappointed in that, but she seemed to just gain a bit of weight with that first formula. And. The next, by the next day, she was, seemed to be feeding better, so I just thought, well, maybe she just needed little hand there and that's fine.

[00:10:43] Emma Pickett: Okay. And were you being given support to express? I'm just imagining she's not feeding. She's sleepy when she does try and feed, you are very uncomfortable and full. What was happening with expressing and protecting your milk production, your breasts? 

[00:10:55] Phoebe: What was really hard is that everyone had a different idea of what I should do.

So one midwife told me to use the pump. She said, you need to use the pump just to stimulate your breasts and your milk supply. So she put me on the pump, but I didn't really get measured for like pump size. So I, they just put me on the pump and said, right, whatever you pump, you just give it to your baby.

And then the next shift, the midwives say, oh no, don't use the pump. At this point, you know, you shouldn't be using the pump this early on in your breastfeeding journey because you already have a lot of milk and it will just overstimulate your milk supply. So ev I was just very confused with it all. Okay.

[00:11:28] Emma Pickett: I mean, in the UK we would recommend that you did pump In that situation, we would want you to be removing milk effectively. You might hand express first, possibly if it's a very early days just to collect the colostrum, but then you would pump afterwards. Um, because we need your breasts to get that full stimulation.

And the idea that you're gonna be overproducing on sort of day two, day three is not really a worry. We would just, we just want to get your milk supply, um, up and running and get milk removed regularly. So when you get, when you have that conflicting information, and so many people recognize that story of being told different things by different people, what did you decide to do?

Do you remember? It was probably a bit of a blur, but do you remember what you did? 

[00:12:05] Phoebe: Um, yeah. So I decided not to use the pump because I was just so uncomfortable with it. Obviously, I hadn't been measured with flange size properly. Okay. It just really uncomfortable. Um, one midwife showed me the way of, um, expressing hot.

I couldn't really hand express. I found that really hard. But expressing milk into hot water. Uh, so that just saved me for the first few days because I got through that. Okay. 

[00:12:25] Emma Pickett: Tell me, tell me more about that. What does that look like? 

[00:12:27] Phoebe: Um, so it's quite odd to, um, some people do it in the shower. I never managed to do that, but I was shown a technique with a glass of water.

So you have a glass of hot water and you bend over and put your breasts into it, and then you kind of massage your breast a bit and the milk just comes out. So it's a way of like relieving. The problem is you can't, obviously, you just lose all the milk. It just goes into the water. 

[00:12:47] Emma Pickett: So are you creating a seal?

I'm just asking 'cause there's one message, one one method called the juice jar pump, where you create a seal and as the water cools it creates a vacuum that pulls. Pulls the, that's what you were doing that, yeah. You had that kind of, okay, so, so you weren't sort of hand expressing, you were just holding the glass against your breast to create that vacuum and then it was drawing, pulling the milk out.

Yeah. Okay. And also 

[00:13:08] Phoebe: massaging your breast just to get it to come out. 

[00:13:10] Emma Pickett: Okay. Better. Okay. Gosh, it's interesting what you hear people doing. Yeah. I mean that's a technique I've never heard anyone being told to do in hospitals. I mean, the juice jar pump is something you see in American places. 'cause we don't have glass juice jars like that really in the, in the England.

So I've heard people talk about it in that context, but I've never heard anyone being told to do it in hospital and also never been told to do it. 'cause obviously as you say, the milk can't be given to babies. So it's interesting. That's a. That's a message that you're given. I guess the priority was about relieving your engorgement and that's what was felt to be most important in that moment.

[00:13:41] Phoebe: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:13:42] Emma Pickett: So did you then literally go home the next day with all that going on? Yeah, I 

[00:13:45] Phoebe: did go home and actually the day I went home, she seemed to be feeding a bit better, and because I'd managed to express quite a fair bit of milk into the hot water, I just felt a bit better. Two, I was in less pain, so I just thought, right, well go home.

And within a few days I had an appointment with the lactation consultant, so I felt. I a bit worried, but I knew I'd have some support leaving the hospital. Um, so the first week seemed to go all right. She was still, um, I couldn't get rid of the nipple shields. I knew I had to get rid of them at some point, but I was trying to feed her without, she just wouldn't.

And um, what was really hard is I'd read about, um, feeding on demand and not waiting until the baby cries to feed her, you know, knowing how to detect those early signs of hunger. And, but she would just. Either be sleeping or just full on crying. So it was really hard to just get to that window. And when she was crying, obviously it was really hard because I had to like, get ready, get my cushions, get her onto the breast.

She couldn't latch straight away. Um, something that was discovered a bit later is that because the birth had been quite short, she'd had some tensions in her neck and uh, she wasn't really properly moving her head around. So. That's, that's one of the things that got, that found, we found out later. 

[00:14:55] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you've got quite a few things all coming together here, haven't you?

Yeah. You've got the, the inverted nipples, the, the pressure around using shields and not feeling like you shouldn't use shields. I guess one message I would've loved to have given you is it's okay to use shields if they're working, they're working, um, and putting the pressure on yourself to get rid of them can sometimes add an extra element of something you, you haven't got the capacity for.

But then the neck tension, which obviously can sometimes impact on tongue function and other things as well. It's all happening at the same time. It sounds really stressy. I, one thing I want to just check, Phoebe, I will have this urge as a lactation consultant to, to want to time travel back to you. At this point and say, oh gosh, I wish you'd had this and I wish that had happened and I wish that happened.

That's probably gonna really annoy you. So if they, if I start doing that and forgetting this is your story and trying to kind of hypothetically troubleshoot it, please tell me if that gets irritating, because I appreciate that. I don't want that to, I don't want you to think, oh gosh, Emma's just saying, oh no, if only, if only, if only because that is not a helpful message for you to get.

Are you able to kind of let go of that kind of, if only, if only thing. 

[00:15:59] Phoebe: Yeah. Yeah. Actually I, I wish now I'd, um, I understood a bit better about how things went wrong. So actually that would be quite helpful just to say, oh, if only I'd had this at this point. 'cause I'm still trying to get my head around.

Why I wasn't able to breastfeed when I felt I was really prepared. So, okay. It'd probably be quite helpful. 

[00:16:17] Emma Pickett: Okay. Right. I, we'll do it then, but if it gets it annoying, you let me know. No worries. So you are breastfeeding and you say successfully, although you've got this pressure, internal pressure, you feel to get rid of the shields.

Are you in pain? What's happening? I am, 

[00:16:30] Phoebe: yeah. So I had a sore straight away on my nipples, so I'm in quite a bit of pain. Um, and I could feel after a few days I had this feeling that something wasn't right. I could feel my breasts get quite soft. I just felt like maybe I had less milk. So this. Around this time I went to see the lactation consultant and she did confirm that my supply had dropped because obviously I was expressing all the extra milk into hot water, but it provided no stimulation really.

I did have a pump at home, so in France you, um, can rent a pump. It's paid for by the French healthcare system. So I had rented out a pump at home. I wasn't using it because I didn't really know how to use it. Okay. And I realized that my milk supply had dropped quite dramatically within a week. 

[00:17:12] Emma Pickett: Right. Okay.

So, so with the if only hat on, I would, I would say the pumping was what was missing from this story. Yeah. If you were still doing the hot water stuff once you got home, we're gonna zip back in our time machine. We're going to teach you how to use a double hospital grade electric pump. We're gonna talk about how you would, you know, you'll put a dele to the breast.

First, you'll use breast compressions. We also want to get you sized with the nipple shields and make sure you're using the right size nipple shields and making sure you're putting them on with that slight inversion to create that, that vacuum and draw the nipples in. We might also look at, you know, nipple shape and what else we can do to help your nipples avert before a feed.

But the pumpings, the bit that's missing, isn't it? So if you're, if, if she's not really latching on effectively because of the tension. And you're not pumping really beyond a little bit of expressing into that water, your, your supply's, just getting the message that it, you know, you, you're not wanting to have a full milk supply.

Yeah. So softness isn't necessarily a useful indicator just because you've, if you, if you had very severe engorgement, you might think, oh, that's how it's meant to be. But actually sometimes if breastfeeding is effective, we may be actually fairly soft in between feeds. But in the very early days, we would expect probably some fullness.

Just prior to a feed. Okay. You met the lactation consultant and, and she talked about your milk supply dropping. Was that based on having observed a feed? 

[00:18:33] Phoebe: Um, yeah. So she did observe a feed. She, she said that. Um, not enough milk was being transferred that Adele wasn't really, um, she was having quite a few trouble, quite a bit of trouble swallowing, you know, quite a few.

Okay. And, um, she was actually really helpful. She gave me an action plan, which is great because it's what I needed at this point. She said, right, you're going to go onto the pump. Measured my right size. Um, said, pump as much as you can to just stimulate your milk supply. Try and get it back up. She says if you can try and get rid of the nipple shields, but you know, don't put too much pressure on yourself.

You know, just try. If you can maybe start with the nipple shields and then try and take them off mid feed or maybe use a pump just before the, um, the actual feed just to get the nipple to come out a bit. So make it easier for Dale Feed. So. I, it was a bit, I just, it just was a lot of information at this point, but I thought, okay, I'll, I'll give this a try.

Yeah, try and pump as much as I can. Um, so I did feel like I was on the right track. 

[00:19:32] Emma Pickett: Good. 

[00:19:32] Phoebe: Yeah. 

[00:19:33] Emma Pickett: And had you been giving any formula once you got home? I just wonder how Adele's getting on if, if your milk supply was dropping? What was happening with her weight gain and her nappies? 

[00:19:41] Phoebe: So not at this point, she wasn't having any formula at this point.

I was absolutely against the idea of giving her formula. Um, her nappies seemed fine and she'd, um, so in France you get weighed, so the baby gets weighed that they would leave, that they leave the hospital, and then a week later they have a pediatrician appointment. Uh, so that, yeah, so the weekly appointment, the pediatrician that didn't go so well, she'd lost weight at this point.

Um, the pediatrician wasn't very helpful, so there was another problem also is that her nappies seemed quite wet, but she wasn't passing any stool. Okay. Um, so that was a bit of an issue and the pediatrician was very. Adamant that I just should stop breastfeeding. He would just said, oh, well, you know, breastfeeding is fine for most people, but for women like you, it just doesn't work.

So you should just go straight to formula. It's just one of those things quite common for women like 

[00:20:31] Emma Pickett: you, for women like you. Like what? With names, beginning with P, what does that even mean? Who knows? Um, so, so the nappies and the weight gain, I mean, I can imagine the moment that was. That was a really stressful conversation and I'm, I'm sorry that you went through that, but, but it's not, I guess it's not mysterious as to what was happening.

We, you know, the lack of stooling is an indication of not enough milk transfer at this point. And, um, and you know, the, the weight obviously indicated that as well, but you had the action plan from the lactation consultant. Yeah. You knew what you wanted to do. This is now what, her seven days? 10. Well, she's had the, yeah, 10 days post.

10 days. Okay. What happened next? 

[00:21:05] Phoebe: So I started to pump, um, at that time, so started to pump like eight times a day. Like she told me. It was really difficult because it's every three hours. I couldn't use the pump very well. It was a very good pump. It's a pump that'd been recommended by the lactation consultant, but I just felt like not much milk was coming out.

So obviously at this point in my breastfeeding journey, you wouldn't expect too much milk. But what was really hard is I, I found I did have milk because when I was expressing into hot water, I could see there was a lot of milk coming out, but just not pumping. Good amounts. Um, so I kept going with that and suddenly I had a huge boost in my milk supply again.

But same thing happened. I had a huge engorgement, which led to mastitis, so that was quite hard. My breast went really red and swollen and quite painful. And the only thing that was relieving it is just expressing milk and hot water. Um, so this was about two weeks postpartum, so I was still trying to get a delta feed from the breast.

Plus trying to pump. But I soon realized that maybe formula had to be an option just to get her weight gain back up. And you know, I just felt obviously very guilty. I was really upset and I just thought, well, you know, it's her health. Um, I have to do something at this point. So obviously she's not getting enough milk, I'm not really getting on with the pump.

Try some formula. There were some really stressful moments, like when, um, one morning, it was Sunday morning around 3:00 AM I was desperately trying to get her to feed. We hadn't bought formula at this point, and I just realized she was starving and I had nothing else to give her. Couldn't just go out to the shops and buy formula because it was three o'clock in the morning and everything was just really stressful.

It was like a blur. Um, so it was just trying to perm, trying to get her to feed buying formula, which we ended up doing. And um, she started having formula plus a bit of breast milk. So we were trying to use, um. It's kind of, it's a little finger feeding device with a tube that you attach to your finger and you put in her mouth just to get her to drink the milk.

Without giving her a bottle. 'cause I was worried that giving her a bottle would mean the end of breastfeeding. And so, yeah, I 

[00:23:07] Emma Pickett: mean, I can hear still how very committed you are to giving her breast milk and obviously that conversation with the pediatrician was very jarring and, and not a comfortable conversation at all.

No, and I'm so sorry that the engorgement of mastitis came along. That's just such bad luck. Just as things were turning around and you felt your supply coming back. Do you think maybe something was going on with the pumping? I'm just wondering whether the, but the lactation consultant had sized you for the pump, hadn't she?

So it shouldn't, yeah, it shouldn't be that the size was a problem. No. Um, it seems as though there's something going on with the actual pumping that means that milk's not being removed effectively. 'cause if you're pumping eight times and you get engorgement and mastitis, something's not quite fitting in there.

[00:23:45] Phoebe: No. 

[00:23:46] Emma Pickett: But she was still feeding on the shields. She was still transferring 'em out. Uh, at this 

[00:23:49] Phoebe: point, um, I, um, saw the lactation consultants again and I said, look, I've just got too much on my plate. I'm trying to get on with the pump. Uh, we are obviously having to transition to formula and I also can't get her to breastfeed.

So the consultants said, okay, well maybe we'll just let breastfeeding go for a minute. Just, you know, try and pump as much as you can and just give it to Adele, but don't worry yourself too much about actually feeding on the breast. It's obviously. Causing you a lot of stress, it would just be so stressful because she would be crying.

I would be trying to get her to latch. I wouldn't end up crying also because it was just so painful and she just kept, you know, screaming and it was just so stressful. And she would feed every three hours roughly, and I would just. See the time go by and think, oh, it's time for another feed. I would start to really resent it and just be really worried all the time.

And yeah, I felt like I was failing her, which was really horrible. I kept saying to her, I'm so sorry I've not managed to feed you the way I wanted. No, honey. I just really sad. 

[00:24:48] Emma Pickett: I voicing that. That's such a powerful moment to imagine you doing that. So you mentioned earlier on that you'd had sores with the shields, so even with the shields, you were in pain at this point and that hadn't gotten easier.

No. And, and the tension was maybe part of that, but you didn't necessarily get to the bottom of, of what was going on, why you were still getting damage? 

[00:25:09] Phoebe: No, not really. I still couldn't really understand. We saw a chiropractor, her position seemed quite good. Um, so the lactation consultant, a community midwife, and the chiropractor assessed her position.

They said she seemed okay. She wasn't really opening her mouth properly, so we were shown techniques to try and open her mouth a bit more while she was at the breast. But she was still, it was still just really difficult and we didn't really know why, and I, at this point, I just thought, well, you know, maybe it's not meant to be and maybe I can just try and continue pumping.

So I dread about exclusive pumping during pregnancy, and I had it down as an option. I just thought to myself, right, okay, what I really want is for baby to have breast milk, and if it's not at the breast, they might be another way of doing this. So I, I'd had it down as an option at this point. So I thought, well, okay, maybe we could just try that instead.

[00:25:56] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I'm gonna ask you a bit more about that decision process, but before I do that, did anyone check Adele for a tongue tie? Is that something that's on the cart? She was checked for tongue tie. Yeah. She 

[00:26:05] Phoebe: didn't appear to have one, so, 

[00:26:07] Emma Pickett: okay. Yeah. So maybe it was that post birth tension that was causing these ongoing complications.

I mean, unlikely to be an issue for weeks and weeks and weeks, but still possible at two weeks for there to be a little bit of an issue there. Yeah. So do you remember there being a sort of day where you said. Right. That's it. I'm letting go of the breastfeeding. Was there a kind of epiphany moment? Was it after the conversation with a lactation consultant or is it something that gradually kind of crept up on you as an option?

[00:26:33] Phoebe: Um, it did gradually kind of creep up for a while, and then one day I had like an online therapy session planned and um, I spoke to my therapist. It was really lovely. And I told her the whole story and she was just so good. It led to a huge shift in my mindset. She just said, right. Okay, well whatever you do will be the best decision.

Just remember, there's plenty of other ways of showing her love than breastfeeding. She, um, helped me realize I'd been really hard on myself because I kept thinking, oh, my body's failed me. I failed my child. And it was quite, um, a dramatic, um, shift because pregnancy had gone really well. The birth had gone quite well, Adele.

She was a lovely baby and we were just really happy. But at the same time, I just felt like this huge thing was just going wrong and I thought, okay, well, you know, I'm obviously trying really hard here and I was up pumping at all times of the night and I, what was really frustrating is having to give a formula, whereas I was losing the milk because I could just couldn't pump it out properly.

So I just felt really frustrated. And also I felt like I was missing out in certain moments. Like she'd fall asleep on me and we'd, you know, she'd have a lovely nap and then I'd be like, oh, it's time to pump. So I'd have to hand her over to my husband, wake her up, and I just felt like I was missing out to all.

No, all those moments, I just was spending so much time with the pump. And also I felt really guilty towards my husband because he was supportive. But I felt like my desire to breastfeed was just so big. It was just taking up so much space and you know, probably. Taking up a bit too much space at this point.

So that therapy session really helped me to just understand I'd been really tough with myself and I kind of let go and I just thought to myself, okay, maybe my breastfeeding journey is coming to an end. I just have to accept that. Um, and I just started putting less pressure on myself at this point. Just thought, okay, maybe it can stop.

I did want to try all the options before I stopped breastfeeding. I didn't want to have any regrets. I thought, okay, well if I stop. I want to make sure I've tried all the options out. And there was still this thing about the pump that you were talking about that saying, there's something going wrong with this pump.

I'm not sure why. So I wanted to get to the bottom of that. 

[00:28:35] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you let go of trying to attach her and rather than forcing her to come to the breast or, or having those moments where you were dreading feeds Yeah. You let go of that and you were still using the finger feeding device? 

[00:28:48] Phoebe: No, at this point we'd gone to bottles because she started, um, drinking much more milk.

And, um, the finger feeding device was great when there was a small amount, but when she started drinking larger amounts, it was just really difficult and it didn't really work with the formula anyway 'cause the formula was a bit thick and just gets stuck in the tube. So we got to bottles and actually the um, decision to stop trying to get her to latch was quite a relief for me.

I thought, okay, that's something less to worry about. I can maybe try and get on with pumping and, you know, focus on one thing at a time. 'cause that was just too much to think about at this point. 

[00:29:19] Emma Pickett: So at this point you are giving formula. You've let go of the latching, but pumping isn't super successful.

And you've talked about kind of not enjoying the pumping and pumping kind of being a burden and taking you away from her. But now we are in a place where you are exclusively pumping, so you're not even giving any formula. So you've gone from point A to point B, which is quite a transition. So, so tell us about, you've, you've let go of the breastfeeding and it sounds like your therapist was really good in enabling you to, to take that weight off your shoulders, which I have to say early, very early on really, because most people take.

S you know, several months to sort of come to terms with what has happened and reflect on that. But it sounds as though your therapist was really good at kind of crystallizing everything for you in that moment. Mm-hmm. You let go of breastfeeding. Did you ever have in your mind. I'm gonna not breastfeed for a while, but I may come back to it.

Was that something anyone ever spoke to you about? Um, 

[00:30:09] Phoebe: I did think about it, yes. The lactation consultant did tell me about it, but I think in my head, once I decided to stop, uh, trying to get her to breastfeed, I didn't really want to go back to it actually a little bit later on. I did try and get her back to the breast, but I would just get instant pain and sores and I just thought, okay, I just can't deal with, you know, this stress, and I didn't want it to affect my relationship with her neither.

And, you know, I would try and get her to breastfeed and I would just be in pain and try to not show it, and I'd just get really tense and obviously she could feel it. And it was just such a difficult moment for both of us. I just thought, okay, maybe it's just not meant to be that way. Okay. 

[00:30:45] Emma Pickett: So you've let go of the kind of attaching and, and you know, the, the idea of doing that future is, is it all that's closed now?

Which I completely respect feels right. How did you get from giving the formula and feeling negatively around pumping? How did you get from that place too? Exclusive pumping and feeling more positively about it. Or maybe you don't feel positively about it, maybe you still hate pumping? I dunno. No, no. Tell us how you got from the place of reducing the formula to, to exclusive 

[00:31:11] Phoebe: pumping.

Uh, so what happened was I had planned to kind of stop pumping by the time my husband went back to work because I thought I just couldn't go on with the pumping. Plus looking after Adele all day would just be too difficult. So he was due to go back to work four weeks after her birth, but unexpectedly, he got two weeks off, extra weeks off because I was in quite a low place and he didn't really wanna go back to work at this point.

So he asked his job for another two weeks off and I thought, okay, well maybe my pumping journey doesn't have to come to an end straight away. I might have just those two extra weeks. I knew that every drop I was giving her was really good, and I just thought, okay, well maybe we can do two more weeks. I was still seeing the lactation consultant at this point and she just couldn't understand why I wasn't getting on with a pump.

So she suggest, suggested I try a manual pump. Instead, she'd just write, okay, well, you know, just try and see how it goes. And I bought a little manual pump and started using it and I actually got more milk from that I'd had with the big pump. So I thought, okay, well okay. Wow, that's something a little bit.

Just something. So Adele was still having like small amounts of breast milk at this point. She would have, let's say eight bottles in 24 hours, and one of them, or maximum two would be breast milk. So I was quite pleased with that. So she never had a moment where, in her life where she didn't have any breast milk at all.

So that was pretty good. Okay. Um, so I started using that manual pump. I soon realized that I couldn't really do this in the long term because it was quite hard. And so I bought one of those little wearable pumps that you often see in the United States. I know they're quite big over there. Um, so I did buy one of those and I also found out about this Instagram account.

Um, this mom who'd been exclusively pumping in France. It's not a big thing in France, it's not really talked about. She trained in America and she'd made this whole training programs for moms who wanted to exclusively pump. Um, so I start, I signed up for her training and I just went on the online course and read a lot about it, and I realized that.

There's a lot I didn't know. So I thought, okay, well I can try and adjust certain things. Um, maybe try and limit the wearable pump because the motor's not very strong. It can lead to a dipping milk supply. Um, try and measure my f fla size again. Um, try and pump at better times. I was kind of skipping pumps here and there.

I wasn't really regular. I found it really hard to do it eight times a day, so I, I thought, okay, well maybe there's some things I can try. And, um, I spoke to the lactation consultant again and we thought I might change the main pump. Okay, well let's just try another brands and see how that goes. And actually that's what made the difference.

I just tried another pump and that just worked. 

[00:33:39] Emma Pickett: Can I ask you about the, the, so the French account, I realize not lots of, not a lot of Melissas are French speaking 'cause I'm not. Um, but what was the name of that account? 

[00:33:47] Phoebe: So in French it's mad, which, um, in English would be Mrs. Pump. 

[00:33:53] Emma Pickett: Okay. I'm gonna ask you to spell that for me and send that to me and I'll put that in the show notes.

Sure. I love the idea of there being kinda like a training program, like, almost like you're indu being inducted into the world of, of the exclusive pumping moms. That's kind of, that's kind of cool. So do you mind me asking about pump brands? What was the pump you were using? First of all that wasn't going so well?

[00:34:11] Phoebe: It was a Spectra pump, which I was quite surprised about because apparently it's the pump to use because you can go, you know, it doesn't have to be plugged in while in use. Um, it's not that heavy and apparently it's one of the good pumps. Um, so that was the one I was, didn't really fit for you. 

[00:34:27] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, it's in, but Spectra is a pump that does normally get good results, but this is a real story about how individual everybody is and how we can't make hard and fast rules about what works for everybody.

And then what was the pump that kind of turned things around for you? 

[00:34:40] Phoebe: Uh, the metal pump. So it's the other big one, the big yellow one, which, um, yeah, so that was the pump I had at the hospital. And I thought, okay, well I'll just go back to that one and see how I go with it. So I just thought to myself, okay, well let's just try other options.

I really want to try all the options before giving in. 

[00:34:56] Emma Pickett: And your flange size is different with the new, with the new pump? 

[00:34:59] Phoebe: Yes. Yes. So it was quite hard finding the flange size. I had to measure it quite a few times. You have to just buy a few of them and just trying to see what works. Um, so that was quite difficult to do it at home.

Uh, the problem is with the me and the pump is that the minimum size is 21 millimeters, which is actually quite big. Most women will measure under 20 milliliters. So that's one of the things that at the maternity unit, they gave me like 24 millimeters, which actually not many women have 24 millimeters, size nipples.

Yeah. So it's just one of those things. Yeah. 

[00:35:29] Emma Pickett: Yeah. We're definitely discovering that most people need to go smaller than we thought historically. So you were using an 

[00:35:34] Phoebe: insert where you in the 21 to get you? No, I was using the 21 and then I went down to 19, which I thought, okay, there's something not quite right there.

Went down to 19 and now I'm on the 17. And actually one of the things I learned in the training was that your nipple size can, um, change during your pumping journey. So I've realized I'm now getting a bit smaller. So I'm, I'm thinking of going down to the 15 now because I'm not sure the 17 is well adapted anymore.

Wow. That's interesting's amazing. 

[00:36:01] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I want to tell you about my brand new book called The Story of Jesse's Milky. It's a picture book for two to six year olds, and I wanted to write a book that was about weaning, but also not about weaning, because breastfeeding journeys end in all sorts of different ways.

So Jesse's story is presented as having three possible endings. In one ending, his mom is pregnant and Jesse's going to share his milk with a new baby. In the second, his mom is getting really tired and it's time for some mother led weaning. And in the third, we see a self weaning journey as Jesse's attachment to breastfeeding gradually fades.

There are beautiful illustrations by the very talented Jojo Ford, and the feedback from parents so far has been so lovely and touching and I'm really excited to share the book with you. If you're interested in my other books for Older Children, I have the Breast book, which is a guide for nine to 14 year olds.

And it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And I also have two books about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding for a 10% discount on the last two. Go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code MMPE 10 Makes milk picket Emma 10.

So tell us a bit more about the training. What do you do today with cleaning and washing and sterilizing and, and when do you sterilize and what's your kind of, what's the information you've been given around that? 

[00:37:34] Phoebe: Um, so the training was really useful because, um, it taught me, there's an um, thing called the American Fridge Hack, which is very, we use in the United States.

Well, actually you don't have to clean out your pump parts every time you pump. Um, you can just put them in the fridge in a bag. A sealable bag, um, you just put it in the fridge and wash them once every 24 hours. So that really helps it just because you do end up doing a lot of washing up the bottles, everything.

So I do sterilize everything every 24 hours. Um, and there's a lot of other little things that can just help. Like if you're doing the night pump, just make sure everything's ready and set for your per before you go to bed. So when you get up in the middle of the night, you don't have to start looking for pump up here and there because you do end up having all these pump parts everywhere around your house.

Um, also having everything in, um, two pairs so you don't have to, you know, if you lose one or one breaks, just always have these little spare parts lying around. Always you have the manual pump just in case, because you never know there might be a problem with the pump one day. Always have the manual pump with you.

So there's a lot of little hacks here and there, which are really helpful and just help you gain time. The problem is with exclusive pumping, is that. You have time, you allocate to pumping, you also have the time of giving the bottle to baby. So it actually, you know, doubles the amount of time. Really? 

[00:38:51] Emma Pickett: Yeah.

Really, really does add up. So yeah, the American Fridge Hack, thank you for highlighting that. I think that is, that's, that's definitely useful. Ziploc bag or a Tupperware box. You've got the, the Milky Bits going in there. And they come out cold. Does that ever, is ever caused you a problem of 

[00:39:07] Phoebe: Not really. I try and get the, um, at least just the flanges out a bit before because I've read somewhere that cold can actually, um, a affect the way you pump.

So I try and get them out before. But otherwise, no, it's not a problem. And actually when you are flare, properly fitted, it's actually quite comfortable. So at first it was just really uncomfortable pumping. I just couldn't get on with it. But now I've just found it much more. You just do it so much in the end, you don't even think, you just put it on, you end up pumping, doing something else, like eating or watching tv.

And actually it's a time for yourself too. I've started to enjoy it a bit more because, you know, you listen to a podcast, so I made myself a playlist with all the podcasts and listen to, or you watch a TV show and that's, it's actually a time where you sit down and you can't do anything else but pump. Um, one of the really good, um, tips I was given also is to get one of those bras that you can just fit the pumps, um, into.

So you don't have to just hold your pump and hold your bottles. You can just fit them into your bar and that's really good. So you've got your hands free to do something else. That's a lifesaver. Definitely. Definitely. 

[00:40:08] Emma Pickett: Um, so you are, you are effectively hands free, but you're not using one of these wearable pumps and I think it's, I think your point that you made earlier about the motors not being super big, my experience is that especially if you're starting off in the first few weeks, exclusive, pumping.

You're gonna really struggle to maintain a milk supply with a wearable pump. It's definitely, it's gonna be challenging. Having said that, some people with more than one child may not be able to physically sit down with a larger pump, so I have had some exclusively pumping folks who've used a wearable pump, maybe for a couple of pumps in the day, and then used the, the bigger pump with the more significant motor of the rest of the time.

Tell us a typical day right now. What, what, what does it look like for you? 

[00:40:46] Phoebe: Um, so now today I'm down to five pumps a day. Um, so I used to get up at five in the morning, but I've started to be a bit more. I'm just, so the thing is mom, Adele started sleeping through the nights at six weeks old. And, um, I had to get up at three in the morning and I was just so frustrated.

I just thought to myself, oh, I could be sleeping right now. She's just sleeping and I have to get up. So now I actually get up at seven. So I have a. An hour, a long pump in the morning because I have quite a lot of milk in the morning. And then I usually pump around, um, I'd say like 11, half 11, and then three o'clock, seven o'clock, and 11:00 PM I'm thinking about going down to four pumps a day.

It's a bit of a risk because it could, you know, mean it's supply, uh, you know, a dip in my supply. But actually I'm pumping way more than what Adele is drinking right now. So I pump around. 1.3 liters a day. Wow. That is a lot. 

[00:41:39] Emma Pickett: That is a lot. For anyone listening that's well beyond what we'd expect a 16 week old baby to be taking, um, in their milk supply.

Yeah. She takes around eight 50 mils a day. So, so your freezer must be looking pretty full. Yeah, I'm guessing. Yeah. Okay. Wow. So. So in that hour long pump that, that's a long time, isn't it? I mean, what's, what's Adele doing while you are pumping for an hour? Um, 

[00:41:59] Phoebe: so she wakes up around seven. Um, so her dad wakes, um, with her and, um, gives her her bottle in the morning, changes her diaper, everything.

So he looks after her for that first hour. It's not actually an hour pumping. It's about say, 45 minutes. But then by the time you get everything ready, you know, put all the parts in the fridge, put all the milk in the fridge, just a lot of logistics. Um, so it's a lot of like putting milk into bottles, thinking about how I'm going to freeze milk that day.

Um, sticking to routine usually helps just having fixed, um, times to pump that. You don't have to think, okay, what time is it now? When was the last pump? It's just organization really. Once you get used to it, it becomes of second nature really. Yeah. But, um, I think four pumps a day, um, would really help me.

So the idea is I would pump at like seven in the morning, half 12, maybe 5:00 PM and then 11:00 PM 

[00:42:49] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So Nancy Becker talks about that magic number, doesn't she? That everyone's got a different magic number because our storage capacity is different, and our response to not removing milk is different.

So every exclusively pumping mom's schedule will look different. Definitely. And you won't necessarily know what happens until you experiment, until you try and, and, and see. So 1.3 liters. I mean, that is literally probably, you know, 400 milliliters going in the freezer every day at least. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what's your plan for that?

Are you go, you're hanging onto it. So maybe at the end when you stop pumping, you'll still be able to give her breast milk? What's your, what are you thinking? That's the plan. 

[00:43:24] Phoebe: Yeah. Yeah. So I, um, originally had to goal of three months, and now I'm four months, so I'm thinking more about six months. 'cause in France they start solid.

So quite early on at four months. But I've decided to start solids at six months because just looking into the research and the evidence is more, six months is more adaptive, I think. 

[00:43:43] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, France should still be governed by the World Health Organization recommendations. I mean, the four months thing might be cultural, but six months is definitely what we're aiming for, ideally worldwide.

Gosh, you, you, you sound so together, Phoebe. I'm just so impressed with how you've managed to organize everything. Thank you. I mean, I'm guessing there must be moments where, you know, it's 1130 Adele's awake. She wants to play, you've got to pump. Yeah. What do you do in those moments when she's kind of unsettled and you've got to pump?

[00:44:09] Phoebe: It can be quite tricky. Um, I'm lucky that her dad is on, um, so he's on partial prevention leave, so it's, um, a French um system, which means that he works part-time. And he, so he only works Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and one of those days he's working from home. So I actually only have two days with her alone.

Um, so those two days can be quite tricky. This is why I'm thinking about going down to four pumps because. Um, I've got my times. They don't always correspond to her times neither. So what I usually do is I, if I have to pump on my own with her, I always sit next to her. I don't always go, if I go in another room while she naps, there's always the possibility that she might wake up and I'll have to like, disconnect the pump and everything.

So I always pump next to her. Um, if she's asleep, well that's great. Um, she only has half an hour naps during the day, so you have to time it quite well. I just, um, put her in her baby carrier, not the carrier, sorry, the little baby seat and loads of toys, um, hop, you know, milk nearby just in case she gets hungry.

Mid, mid, uh, pump. 

[00:45:13] Emma Pickett: And because your hands free, you can feed her while Yeah. You're pumping and that often will presumably be quite helpful. 

[00:45:18] Phoebe: I often do that. Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good tip also is um, that's what I think that's the hardest part about pumping is when you are by yourself with your baby and your babies.

You know, upset and you are pumping and you don't wanna stop at the same time, you know you want to look after your baby. Um, I have had some moments where I've had to like rock her while pumping, just being a bit mad. It's actually quite funny. Um, but yeah, it's been quite few moments. And 

[00:45:45] Emma Pickett: then what about going out in the day?

So you can't go out for the whole day and like have some picnic and some meadow? Not that many, many people are doing that, but um, you've always got to get back for pumping. Yeah. Has that felt, I. Has that felt difficult for you? I mean, can you remember days when you've had to rush back to pump? How, how are you, how is that feeling for you at the moment?

[00:46:04] Phoebe: Um, so it was quite tricky at first because I was pumping six to seven times a day at one point. So that made going out really difficult because I always felt, oh, I have to get back to pump. And, um, what really helped is buying the wearable pump. That did help for a while, and I, I still do use it sometimes because, um, it's actually, it can be quite useful when you're out and you don't want to go back home or when you're out with friends just to have that wearable pump.

You just put it on. So sometimes I put it on at restaurant or in the street and public transport. Just have it on. And it's quite funny. You are in the street, you know you're pumping at the same time. It's better to use that pump than to have to rush home to pump and, you know, so that's been quite useful to just have that.

Okay. 

[00:46:45] Emma Pickett: So in that situation then, let's imagine you're out and about, you've put the wearable pump in in a restaurant. Were you, then, would you then keep that milk? Have you got a bottle in your bag to pull the milk into, or are you discarding that milk, what's happening? 

[00:46:55] Phoebe: No, so I have a little, um, a little bag with, um, ice, ice packs in it.

So I have, um, I always have an extra bottle of milk with me just in case, and I have a little bottle warmer. Um, with hot water, you can just put the milk, you know, the actual bottle in the hot water and that can heat and she can have that. And then the milk, I actually pump when I'm about, I always have a little bottle.

I just put it in there so it can stay for a few hours outta the fridge, but I try and get home quite soon enough so I can put it all in the fridge. So that's been quite an organization too, just thinking about, okay, what am I going to do with this milk? Sometimes I just give it to her straight away, which is quite good.

Um, sometimes if I've got an extra bottle, I just keep it in the little pack, cold pack for a while. So, 

[00:47:38] Emma Pickett: I mean, organization is the key word here. You have to be so organized, don't you? You've gotta really think about, okay, what's happening today? What's in my bag? Everything has to be really kind of thought about in advance.

Yeah. And going on holiday. So we're speaking right now. You're away from Paris right now? Yeah. What happens when you go on holiday? Is, is Miss Modela coming with you? What's, what's what happens? 

[00:47:59] Phoebe: Um, yeah, so this is the first holiday we've had with her. Um, so we came down on the train from Paris, so we had to take two trains.

Um, I traveled down with my pump, so I've got my pump, my big pump in my backpack. I've also got the wearable pump. I can pump on the train with. Um, well I'm at my parents' house, so it's quite easy going. Um, I get up in the morning. I've tried and stick to the routine I have at home, so it's not too difficult.

Um, obviously we're both more relaxed because we're on vacation, so my husband looks after her quite a lot and I've decided, um, during this vacation to go down to four pumps a day. So it's actually not too bad because I do one in the mor. I'm going to start doing one in the morning, one at lunch, one in the evening, and one later on.

There's only two, three pumps during the day where she needs, you know, to be with someone like my husband or my parents. And it's not too bad. 

[00:48:48] Emma Pickett: I mean, her being a great sleeper is definitely a aided this situation. I mean, there's some people listen to this thinking, yeah, it's all right for you. She's slept through from six weeks.

My, my baby wakes up five times a night. It's not, I dunno when I would fit my pumping in and sleeping. So I think the universe decided you, you needed that sleep, which I think is, is good news. Yeah, definitely. So tell me about what's gonna happen next. You talked about six months. What do you want to be doing at six months?

So the day she starts solids, where do you want to be with your pumping journey? 

[00:49:17] Phoebe: Um, well, I had planned to stop, well start gradually really reducing at six months, but then I, I'm thinking, well, if four pumps a day works well for me, why not just continue like that for a little longer? Uh, the big next step is going back to work.

So I'm actually going back to work a week from today. So I'm going to have to pump whilst at work, so that might be a bit tricky. Um, I'm lucky that my employer's really lovely and I've got a lovely team and I've, in France, I dunno if they're about the uk, but in France you get, um, an hour a day allocated to breastfeeding mums.

So you have half an hour in the morning, half an hour in the afternoon to pump. 

[00:49:52] Emma Pickett: That's brilliant. I wish it was the case in the uk That's not statutory in the uk. Okay. So I'm glad that's, that may be, um, a European community thing. Who knows? Um, but it's, I'm glad that is your experience so you can break that time up to allow you to pump in when you are, when you're away from, from her, which is brilliant.

[00:50:09] Phoebe: How are you feeling about going back to work? A bit worried? Just, you know, the idea of going back to work seems a bit, um, it just seems so strange. Like I just feel like this is my life now and I'm never going back to work. So I have to, you know, get around the id, you know, get around the, uh, yeah, the fact that I'm going back to work and it's only two days a week, so it's not too bad she'll be with her dad on those days.

Um, I think the pumping thing makes it quite hard because I just have to think about, okay, well when will I pump? So I'm, my job is nursing, so I don't work in the hospital anymore. I work in occupational health, which is, um, kind of a French system where, um, so people who, um, start a new job, they have, um, you know, a visit with occupational health.

So I'm the one who does those consultations, so I have to fit my pumping around those visits. So that might be quite difficult. So that's why I'm thinking I might not pump another couple of months because I just feel like, you know, it might be too difficult to do in the long term, but ideally I would like to keep pumping for a few more months, um, knowing that I've got quite a big stash in the freezer so I can start using that also.

So, yeah, so I'm not, I'm not quite decided yet on how far I'll go. Um, hopefully the, you know, the longest was possible. 

[00:51:22] Emma Pickett: Yeah. You'd, well, you don't have to decide now. You can see how you feel once you've gone back to work. Yeah. A couple of practical things, I know you know this already, but let's just say this out loud for anyone else listening, because you produce so much milk in 24 hours.

You're gonna need to go quite slowly when you cut things down. Mm-hmm. Um, 'cause you will have a greater risk of engorgement and mastitis. Um, um, so that, that wind down will need to be very gradual and give your body a chance to adjust. And if your freezer is crazy full, I, I wanna check, you've got a backup plan if something happened to your freezer.

So if there was a power cut or there's something that happened in your home, where's all that frozen milk gonna go? And, um. Short term, you keep it in your freezer, you don't open the door. If there's a power cut, you keep that door closed. But is there a second freezer in the home? If the freezer broke, is there a freezer nearby that a neighbor is a friendly neighbor could let you use?

[00:52:13] Phoebe: Um, yeah. Yeah, that is a really good question actually. 'cause we've had quite a few power cuts in the past, not since the milk has been in the freezer, but in the last year we've had quite a few. Um, we do have really kind neighbors who probably, um, will accept. A few bags of milk and their fridge. Uh, we do have an extra freezer also just in case.

So, good. You're all sorted then. You've got lots of 

[00:52:33] Emma Pickett: options. Yeah. Yeah. Not that that gonna happen. Not that it's gonna happen. As long as there's still ice crystals in, it's fine to refreeze. Um, and you wouldn't take it out the freezer of the second the power went off 'cause it. Obviously it's good in the closed freezer for quite a long time, but when you've got so much milk, sometimes it's worth just thinking those things through.

Yeah, 

[00:52:49] Phoebe: definitely. Yeah, I have got quite a challenge coming up, so I've, um, whilst I've been down with my parents, I've put also quite a lot of milk in the freezer and I'm not sure I'll be back within a few months to use it. So I'm going to travel with it back to Paris and, um, try and keep it as cool as possible.

It should be, it should be fine if 

[00:53:06] Emma Pickett: there's a lot of milk and it's, and it's actually going to stay cooler for longer. If it's all together in one big block and you've got it in an insulated bag, it may well be absolutely fine. Fingers crossed. Yeah, there are, I mean, there are actually food companies that travel stuff around frozen, so sometimes you get trick tricks from them.

Mm. Okay. You're a bit of a legend. Phoebe. Do you mind me saying that? I mean, thank you mean, what you're describing is so impressive. I mean, all the logistics of it and, and you know, not everyone who's exclusively pumping is gonna be able to have your brain. Um, but, but I'm so glad that you model what, what is possible and, and.

It's also really lovely to hear how you kind of came to peace with saying goodbye to breastfeeding. I mean, I don't want to make you feel uncomfortable, but there is, how are you in that space right now? Is there, is there part of you that has a feeling of regret or have you really managed to kind of work through all that?

[00:53:54] Phoebe: Sometimes if I'm out and about and I see a mum and her baby breastfeeding, I always get that little tinge. I think, oh, okay, well, you know, it could have been me. And also there's like a societal pressure about giving your baby a bottle. So sometimes I feel a bit odd giving Aade a bottle when I'm out and about.

I always feel like I have to say to people, oh, this is breast milk by the way, you know, there's this stigma about giving your baby four wheeler and. In France, it can be quite, um, there's a lot of societal pressure to breastfeed. It's very strange. Um, like when I was pregnant, um, during my midwifery consults, they would say, right, how are you planning to feed your baby?

And I'd say, okay, well, breastfeeding is the option. And they'd be like, okay, well this is the best choice. And they were like, oh, well yes. Thank God for that. And this, this thing about, you know, breastfeeding is the best for your baby. And I often feel. Maybe I'm imagining it, but I often feel like people might look down on me if they see me giving her a bottle when I'm out and about tonight, I feel the need to say, well, actually this is breast milk, and you know.

I'm not giving her formula and there's nothing wrong with giving your baby formula, but there's a lot of pressure about it. So yeah, there's that. There's always that little feeling of thinking, well, you know, I have to explain what I'm doing and are you being judged? 

[00:55:05] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I'm sorry to hear those feelings exist.

I know they are definitely out there. It's it interesting that despite the fact in France. Extended breastfeeding or natural term breastfeeding isn't super supported. And despite the fact people are giving up when they go to work, there's still the pressure on you right now to, you know, feel like you've got to explain what's in the bottle.

That's, yeah, that's, that is a sad place to be. 

[00:55:26] Phoebe: That is, yeah. 

[00:55:27] Emma Pickett: So, yeah, I mean that Pang that you've talked about, I'm not expecting you to eradicate that completely. It's understandable that you'd still have those feelings. Do you think about baby number two, if you were to have a future breastfeeding experience, what that might look like?

Is there anything you would want to do differently? What are your feelings around that? 

[00:55:41] Phoebe: Yeah, that is a really good question actually. Um, yeah, we are, I would try breastfeeding again, um, because I just think every baby is different. I feel also that I've learned a lot. This journey during this journey, I've just learned so much.

So, um, I definitely think I'd try breastfeeding again, and I'm not sure I would go back to exclusively pumping a second time though, because that would probably be much trickier with a toddler and a baby. Um, so that it has been a long journey. And, um, there have been some very difficult moments like getting up in the middle of the night or as you say, having to think about all those pumpings during the day.

So I'm not sure I would go through it again. I'm really pleased I'm doing it now, but, um, so I would try breastfeeding and if it doesn't work, then that would be really. That would be fine, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I understand that. I 

[00:56:28] Emma Pickett: mean, 1.3 liters, I mean, you could be producing nearly half that and, and baby would still almost be exclusively breastfeeding, so you could pump significantly less and potentially have a lot of milk for baby.

I'm not, you know, I'm not suggesting you should ever commit to an a future exclusive pumping journey. I think we all, we make decisions based on what feels right in the moment at that time. Based on all, based on all the circumstances. 

[00:56:52] Phoebe: Yeah, definitely. And things like, you know, my mindset might change in a few years also, so, um, yeah, who knows?

Yeah. I mean, I'd never thought that today, four months postpartum, Adele would still be having breast milk. And actually at one point I never thought that she would stop having formula. So she had her last bottle of formula when she was about six weeks old, and she hasn't had any since. So. At one point, I never thought I would get to that.

I always thought that she would always have like half formula, half breast milk, and that was amazing to just stop that. So it's just been such a, so many surprises along the way that you just Yeah, it's really taught me that you can't just plan things, you know, things sometimes. Yeah. Just have to go with how things are, 

[00:57:30] Emma Pickett: go with the flow literally and metaphorically.

So you mentioned the, um, the, the French Instagram account. Any other resources that you would recommend that you found helpful? 

[00:57:39] Phoebe: Not particularly, I decided to only stick to that account because there's so many different ideas about, um, pumping and you get a lot of conflicting information. Um, so I'm on these French Facebook groups, but some of them, a lot of them say, okay, well don't pump for the first six weeks.

And you just think, well, you know, actually no, that's not how it works. So I always try to just stick to one source of information. So that account is really good. I get 

[00:58:06] Emma Pickett: that sometimes we can be a bit overwhelmed. I guess if she hadn't answered your questions, you'd have gone elsewhere at that point.

Definitely. I mean, the not pumping for six weeks, we do have to be a little bit careful about that messaging. We're not exactly sure where that comes from. I guess it's something about waiting for your supply to regulate if you are still breastfeeding at the same time. But if you're not breastfeeding at the same time, obviously you need to be pumping and if there are any complications, you need to be pumping very early on in.

Some cases. So the idea that you shouldn't be pumping is something we always have to be very careful about, 'cause that that can come from a place that doesn't really take into account your situation. Thank you so much, Phoebe, for your time today. I'm, thank you. Really, really, really appreciate it and very best of luck with starting solids and going back to work and your, your next stage.

Yeah. Let let me know how you get on. 

[00:58:50] Phoebe: Thank you. Thank you so much. It been really lovely. Lovely to you.

[00:58:58] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.