A Q&A on tandem feeding with Nicola de Sousa

 My guest this week has personal and professional experience of tandem feeding to share with us. Nicola De Sousa is an infant feeding coach from Jersey, in the Channel Islands. She fed her toddler Mikayla, all through her pregnancy and alongside her infant Diogo.

We talk about Nicola’s experience of feeding both her children, but also from 28:30 we answer your questions about tandem feeding. For details of the questions covered, please refer to the transcript of this episode.

You can follow Nicola on Instagram @infantfeedingcoach.jersey

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm gonna be talking to Nicola, Nicola De Sousa from Jersey.

That's not New Jersey if you're an American listener, that is the island of Jersey, which is one of the Chanel Islands in between France and England. And she is a breastfeeding counselor and an infant feeding coach, and she's also a currently tandem feeding mom. So we're gonna be talking about Nicola's experiences and also answering some of your questions as well, that some of you are kind enough to submit through Facebook and Instagram.

Thanks very much for joining me today, Nicola. 

[00:01:18] Nicola De Sousa: Thank you for having me. 

[00:01:19] Emma Pickett: So tell me about your family. Who have you got? 

[00:01:22] Nicola De Sousa: I'm married to Andre, who is, um, Portuguese from Madeira. Um, we met here, um, in Jersey. I'm originally from Liverpool. If you're wondering where the accent's from, it's definitely not a Jersey one.

Um, and we have our two and a half year old Mikayla and our seven week old Diego. 

[00:01:40] Emma Pickett: Okay. And I'm, I'm, I'm gonna ask you to the impression of a Jersey accent. All I know is bergerac, like most English people my age, so it's not French, it's a bit of a west country kind of accent. 

[00:01:50] Nicola De Sousa: It is. It is, I can't do it, do an impression of it, but there's not that much of it around anymore.

Sadly. You don't really hear it unless you hear, you know, quite elderly people usually. Otherwise, the, the younger one, younger people here that's not, not as strong. The accent is kind of being lost, I suppose, as we become more. Okay. Um, yeah, that is, it's so diverse here now. Yeah, exactly. 

[00:02:13] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So when I think of Jersey, I think of tax breaks and lots of rich people, but obviously there are, there's a diversity of people that live on Jersey as well.

'cause someone's got to, you know, look after the tourist trade and they're retail trade and there's a lot that goes on. Yes. Um, what's your kind of client base when you're working with new families? 

[00:02:33] Nicola De Sousa: So, I do a lot of kind of preparing to breastfeed stuff now with first time moms, but, you know, as we all know, our breastfeeding journeys are so, so different each time.

And I'll definitely talk about that from my own experience, um, today. But, you know, I do have. You know, a lot of moms who are coming back after, you know, second, third babies and things are just very different this time. So yeah, first time moms, second time moms third, fourth time moms. You know, it's, it's really diverse, the, the kind of work that I'm doing.

And yeah, I, I get moms that are, like I said, preparing to breastfeed, but also mums really in the thick of it. Um, mums with all sorts of different issues. We've now got a much better provision for dealing with tongue ties on the island. Um, so before I often had a lot of mums dealing with tongue ties who were waiting, um, for divisions to, to happen.

And there was a huge waiting list or, you know, operations or procedures got put back because they were performed by the ENT surgeons. Over here now we've actually got tongue tie practitioners, which is amazing 'cause we get. Really quick referrals, but a lot of women were having to travel to London to fly and, and go to private practitioners.

So I was helping them in the interim. Okay. So I get that less so now, which is good because yeah, we're actually getting them done on island quickly. 

[00:03:56] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Gosh, imagine flying hundreds of miles of the new baby that just, you know, when your feeding is already stressful and you're going through a lot, you know, rough first few weeks.

That's, that's tough going for sure. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about your own breastfeeding experience. So, Mikayla, spoiler alert, it's a tandem feeding episode. Mikayla is still breastfeeding. So we're gonna be talking a little bit about your personal breastfeeding experience. How did you find breastfeeding in pregnancy when you were pregnant with yoga?

How did that go for you? 

[00:04:21] Nicola De Sousa: So, first of all, it was absolutely fine. Um, no different. Um, she, she never seemed to notice any difference in the milk either. I think I was hoping that she might self wean. So lots of people had said, oh yeah, when the milk comes in and it changes, they'll just start. They won't want it anymore.

And she'll, she'll self wean. That definitely didn't happen. It was, yeah, she never noticed any difference whatsoever. So I never, I never noticed her, you know, react to any milk changes when my colostrum came in. But what I did have from about halfway through the pregnancy was aversion kicked in for the very first time, so that I found challenging and that's still there with her.

Um, okay. 

[00:05:05] Emma Pickett: Oh, I'm so sorry. 

[00:05:06] Nicola De Sousa: I know. It's really, it's really intense. Um, and I didn't expect that. Um, but I just kind of, you know, persevered and I was really sort of determined to keep going for her because I wanted, I didn't want to wean her anywhere near his arrival, sort of prior to or after. So I thought, well, we're still feeding, so let's just keep going.

Um, and she gets so much comfort from it still. So I really felt that I wanted to, to keep going. And I thought, well, once the hormones sort of level out after I've had him, it'll go away. But it hasn't. 

[00:05:41] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, we'll talk about a version when we talk about some of the questions that have come through.

'cause that is quite a common question. I am so sorry that you've still got aversion. I think it's really important to talk about that because although I think the majority of people who have pregnancy aversion don't have aversion after they've given birth. Obviously there's a group of people who have aversion when they have a toddler and they're going to continue to have aversion throughout pregnancy and after that.

And it's such a grim experience. Well, you'll talk about it in a minute, but just, just, you just feel so guilty from, you know, just, it's just horrible and there's not a lot that helps. But we'll talk about anything practical you found that does help. Tell me about her breastfeeding patterns during, during pregnancy.

Let's pick a random month. Let's say you're seven months pregnant. What would a typical bed day have been like for Mikayla at that point? 

[00:06:27] Nicola De Sousa: Um, so she'd still be waking up probably twice a night for just kind of reassurance, feed only for a couple of minutes and go back to sleep again. Um, and then first thing in the morning, she'd usually wake up quite early, about half five, six, and she'd feed for about half an hour, usually sort of back to sleep or she'd, she'd kind of doze until it was time to get up.

And then she'd probably have another one before we, I left for work and she went to nursery and then we'd go until about half past one when I'd finish work and go and pick her up from nursery. And yeah, then she'd have a really much needed that was like her, her most needed feed of the day. I would say that sort of reconnection after being apart, she'd have a feed and she'd feed to sleep and she'd have a nap and it always a contact nap.

Even right up until even now, we still do contact maps and then she'd. Probably go sometimes through until bedtime. So when she get out the bath, um, she'd want to feed, um, and then feed to sleep. So quite a lot of feeding still. 

[00:07:29] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Quite a lot of feeding still for sure. And at that point, that would've been colostrum and as you say, that didn't stop her.

Um, yeah. And it's inter It is, it is interesting to, again, to hear that a lot of people assume that when colostrum comes along, every child will react, every child's patterns will change. Not necessarily the case at all. No. Did you notice any change in her nappies? Did she have looser stools? Yes, 

[00:07:47] Nicola De Sousa: she's had, she had a few, um, yeah, sort of, yeah.

Looser nappies and not very nice nappies, I would say. Um, but that's been since that, that was more around when he was just born, so not really when I was pregnant. Okay. 

[00:08:01] Emma Pickett: So milk volume increasing, maybe all that newborn milk made that difference. Yeah. And when you were pregnant and coming up towards the end of your pregnancy, I mean, from what you're saying, you're obviously very centered on Mikayla's needs and wanting to make sure you're there for her.

Did you have any plans in place or were you just gonna go with the flow and see what happened? Doesn't sound like you were putting restrictions in place. 

[00:08:23] Nicola De Sousa: No, I didn't put any restrictions in place and I didn't want to because I was so, um, so focused on making sure that this didn't impact on her.

Obviously it's going to impact on her, but as little as possible, you know, in a negative sense. I just wanted her to still feel that she had access to that in exactly the same way as she always had. Um, and I didn't want her to feel any sort of resentment towards him or seeing him feed, and I didn't know how she was gonna react to that.

Um, so no, I didn't put any restrictions in place and we were still co-sleeping and we sort of had some sort of ideas about how we might work things, but we just didn't, we just didn't really, we thought what's the point in trying to come up with a fixed plan and we don't dunno how this is gonna go. So we just sort of thought, we'll wing it.

And that's what we've done. We just, yeah. Yeah. Let it sort of move into its own natural rhythm with two of them. 

[00:09:21] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I love that. I love that. And, and the phrase wing, it is not a phrase we normally think of positively. It suggests someone's kind of, you know, not putting thought into it, but actually the opposite.

You were really putting thought into it and, and realize that fixing things and trying to tie things down would not have served anybody because you just didn't know how you were gonna feel. You didn't know how she was gonna feel. So I love that flexibility. I think that's a really lovely demonstration of how someone can approach downto feeding.

[00:09:46] Nicola De Sousa: Yeah. And I think there's a lot of stuff out there when you reading around it as well that, oh, they might, they might start again anyway, you know, when they see you could wean them potentially if that's what you were going to do. And then there's lots of examples of children that then start up again once the baby comes along.

So then you've put all of this huge effort and PO possible upheaval, emotional. Turmoil potentially into weaning them sort of to a deadline and then they start again anyway, so I thought, yeah, well 

[00:10:17] Emma Pickett: I've had that several times from people I've been working with for sure. Or people have got down just to one feed and thought, okay, we're just doing one feed.

Fantastic. We we'll do that when the baby comes. Yeah. Without realizing that you are probably, you know that in that particular case down to one feed because milk supply had changed and that was a different story. And then when your copious milk production starts again after the newborn, why is that little person gonna restrict to one feed?

They're certainly not. So Yeah. You're being prepared for the unexpected is so important. Yeah. Um, so when you were giving birth to Diogo, tell us how that went and how those first few days went of, of tandem feeding with both of them. 

[00:10:49] Nicola De Sousa: Well, I was really, I think the worst thing about me being pregnant this time and thinking about birth, 'cause I was really, really hoping as I was with, with Makayla for a home birth and then they, they stopped the home birth, um, provision in Jersey.

Last year and it's still not been reinstated. So there's a lot, I've done a lot of work on trying to have that reinstated before I had the yoga, but it's still not in place at the moment, sadly. Um, but the reason I desperately wanted a home birth this time, and it didn't happen for me the first time either, was because I was so, I've never left her, I've never left Mikayla.

So the thought of leaving her overnight or, you know, for potentially longer than that, for an unknown stretch of time, if I had to go to hospital or I ended up with an emergency c-section or, you know, I ended up in hospital for a, for a stretch of time or if he came early, like she did, I was in hospital in the, in the NICU for 12 days.

So that was like my biggest stressor about this pregnancy was how am I gonna manage and how is she gonna cope if we can't feed because she's so, so very much a part of her life and her routines still in her comfort and how she goes to sleep and. So yeah, that was I suppose my biggest worry going into it.

And luckily, um, I was induced and I wanted, I asked to be induced first thing in the morning and I gave birth by nine forty five in the evening. So I was only away from her for one, for one night. And I probably could have gone home quite, quite quickly after he was born. But we decided to stay overnight and wait till the next morning.

But yeah, so luckily for me it was only once. 

[00:12:34] Emma Pickett: Okay. Who was looking after her? I know lot of people are worried about that. Tell us what you did. 

[00:12:37] Nicola De Sousa: Yeah, we had, we're lucky that we've got one set of grandparents here. So we've got my husband's parents, but we don't have any other family apart from them here.

And they both work full time still 'cause they're still really young. So they only had limited time that they could give to us. So yeah, it was a worry. Um, but she is very, very comfortable with them. I know everybody always says, oh, you surprised about how resilient they are. And you think, yeah, yeah, okay.

Maybe yours is, but mine isn't. But they actually are, you know, she was, she had the time of her life, I think, while she was with them and they just stayed in our house so that she was, you know, around her own, her own surroundings. So she felt a bit more comfortable and they just found their own way to get her to sleep and, you know, she was okay.

So I think that's really, 'cause I was just so upset about it and so worried about it. And she was fine. And she did wake up in the night and she did ask for me and they just said, mommy's at, mommy's at the doctor's, and she went back to sleep. So they, you know, they do survive and I think that's really important to remember as a very anxious mom.

Yeah. Uh, if there's any other anxious moms listening, you know, they will be okay. And it is only for a certain amount of time and hopefully not too long. 

[00:13:53] Emma Pickett: So you came back the next morning with Diogo. Is that where she met him for the first time at home? 

[00:13:58] Nicola De Sousa: No. Um, um, Andre, my husband, he went and got her from home and brought her to the hospital.

Um, because we, we wanted to have that sort of, sort of a neutral location in a way for her to meet him. And I came out to meet her and brought her and carried her in and he was in the bed, in his cart next to the bed. Um, so I wasn't, she didn't walk in, I was holding him or feeding him or anything. We made sure he was in the bed and the three of us kind of met him together, if that makes sense.

So we sort of showed him to her and then I breastfed her and then I said, is it okay if mommy feeds the baby? And she said, and I thought, oh, this is gonna be horrendous. Um, and she said, yeah. And then they fed together and she had a good look at him while she was feeding. And then she had a good stroke of his head and touched him.

And sort of that was like their little. Sort of worked each other out, I suppose. It was really, it was a, although I was so stressed about it, it was a very beautiful moment. 

[00:15:01] Emma Pickett: So you did a little bit of singular feeding and then some tandem feeding straight away with both of 'em feeding at the same time.

Yeah. I'm, I'm curious about you asking her, is it okay if I feed the baby? What would you have done if she'd said No? 

[00:15:10] Nicola De Sousa: I know that was why. I probably shouldn't have asked her, but luckily, luckily she said it was okay. But yeah, she said, I said no, I dunno what I would've done. Probably just given it 10 minutes and asked her again.

Yes, 

[00:15:22] Emma Pickett: that's, yes, that probably the way to do it. Give it 10 minutes and then rephrase. Yeah. Um, yeah. But I love the fact that you, your instinct was to check in with her and make sure she was okay, and you had a version in that feed, or was there enough oxytocin flowing around that you didn't? 

[00:15:36] Nicola De Sousa: Yeah, and it's, it's not every single feed with her, it's not every single feed.

Some of them it's absolutely fine. It's usually worse at night and it's usually worse when I'm tired or. If I'm feeding both of them. Sometimes I think it's the, maybe it's the overstimulation as well that can make it worse. One side is more sensitive than the other, so it can be worse on the left side than the Right.

So it just, it can be, yeah. Quite variable. And when, while I was pregnant, it sort of came and went. It wasn't constant. And now even, it's not every single feed, but it is every day. And the, the night, the the going to sleep feed, 'cause that tends to be quite a long, long one because it takes her, she needs a lot of support to go to sleep.

Even now that seems to be, that's usually my worst one. And probably also 'cause I'm really tired by then. 

[00:16:29] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Tell us about nights at the moment. Where's everyone sleeping? What, how, how does she feed at night? How do you organize things? 

[00:16:36] Nicola De Sousa: So I feed her to sleep as I always have forever. Um, and she sleeps with dad and so I stay in that bed.

I. Um, with them and we have a bit of time together while they're both asleep. And then I take Diego into the spare room and I co-sleep in there with him. Okay. Um, so she co-sleep with dad. I co-sleep with him and if she wakes in the night, dad just soothes her back to sleep now. 

[00:16:59] Emma Pickett: Okay. So was that true from birth?

So she's not had night feeds since Diego's born or when did that change? 

[00:17:05] Nicola De Sousa: Yeah, since he came home, we, maybe the first couple of nights I think I might have come in and done them and then we've just sort of slowly stopped me doing it because it was just impossible to, and then if he'd have needed me while I was feeding her and started crying and then I'm trying to unlatch her, which would've woken her, you know, I just, logistically it was just gonna cause so much upset.

So we just said, right Daddy, you are gonna, you know, soothe her back to sleep again. And the first few nights she cried about it. He obviously held her and so, and I was in the other room, obviously, probably a lot more upset than she was. Listening to it. But at the same time, I knew logistically without them both just continuing to wake each other up for however long that this was gonna be the best for us.

Okay. And so now she's actually starting to, for the first time in her life, dare I say it, sleep through. Um, so that has actually been quite beneficial 'cause we've, that's the first time we've ever put any boundaries in place with it. So yeah, it was kind of a, a needs must situation for us this time. And then she 

[00:18:14] Emma Pickett: comes through in the morning, um, and has a feed in the morning.

[00:18:17] Nicola De Sousa: Yep. So she, but takes the door off the hinges brainwash to come in for a feed first thing in the morning, usually about 10 to six, sometimes a bit earlier, sometimes a bit later. Um, and then she'll have a big feed, which actually can't, what at the beginning was really useful because especially with him having a tongue tie.

I can't remember if I'd mentioned that already. 

[00:18:39] Emma Pickett: No, you didn't. No. 

[00:18:40] Nicola De Sousa: Yeah. So he did have a tongue tie as well, so I can. Tell you a bit more about that if you like, but, um, at the beginning especially and you know with that, the, the newborn sort of engorgement that you get, it was actually really useful 'cause she'd just empty both sides and I'd just be, yeah.

So, and I think she really helped with supply as well in those first few days because he was tongue tied. Um, so I was trying to pump, he, I was trying to make sure I did compressions while he was feeding while we waited for it to be, um, sorted. But she took the sort of stress out of that and regulated my spine.

I knew I could sort of relax in terms of the supply and demand was absolutely guaranteed no matter how much he was getting from me directly. 'cause she was obviously feeding much more than a newborn would, um, and taking a lot more. So she really helped regulate and stop that engorgement and yeah, make sure my body knew to keep making it.

[00:19:39] Emma Pickett: Yeah, no, that's definitely, there's a myth, isn't there, that tandem feeding means less milk for the newborn. If actually, if there are any complications, it can really, really help things and protect your supply. Yeah, just coming back to that night weaning, I'm just gonna, I know it's difficult 'cause you're right.

You know, you'd just given birth. It was a big blur. But I'm just curious 'cause obviously just before you given birth you were thinking, oh, hello little yoga. Mm-hmm. Uh, you were thinking, okay, let's just go, go with the flow, see what feels right. But when you got home, you instinctively knew that you needed to do something different.

Did you have this kind of epiphany where you thought, oh, hang on, I'm not gonna be co-sleeping with her, hang on. She is gonna be sleeping with, with Andre instead. How, how did you come to that decision to night ween so, so early on, which absolutely was the right thing for you by the sounds of it. I'm just really curious as to how you made that decision so quickly.

[00:20:30] Nicola De Sousa: Yeah. I think I somehow thought or sort of hoped. Sorry if there's a bit of rustling while I just feed the slipper one. No, we're 

[00:20:38] Emma Pickett: you're allowed to feed the 

[00:20:40] Nicola De Sousa: um, yeah, I think I somehow sort of, I didn't want to think about ifs and buts as, as I said, I just thought I'm gonna wing this and just see what happens.

Um, 'cause that was just less stressful and I thought, well, maybe he will just sleep next to the bed and not really make much noise and maybe I will be able to just carry on as normal sort of sleeping next to her with him in the next to me and I'll just be able to manage it. And then the first night it was pretty evident that, I mean, now she probably would sleep through all his noises, all his little kind of grumblings and stuff in the night, um, that he makes when he needs a feed on doing nappy changes.

I think she probably would sleep through it now because she's kind of used to his soundtrack, if that makes sense. Whereas. First few weeks. Any noise he made, she was awake. You know, I'm wondering what that noise was. So I think it was that we, we realized the first night, yeah, this isn't gonna work. 'cause every time we made a peep, she woke up and woke up quite, you know, startled.

So that's what made our mind up basically, was that she was just gonna end up with totally disrupted sleep if he was in the same room. So that's what made up my mind. 

[00:21:56] Emma Pickett: Okay. So first night nightmare, you just realized things have to change the next day. So you're still feeding her to bed at bedtime. Um, and then if yoga's having a fussy period or cluster feeding, you're just hand feeding him.

Yeah. How do you work it? 

[00:22:10] Nicola De Sousa: So, so if he's having a, if he's cluster feeding, um, sometimes that might slightly delay her bedtime. Um, which isn't ideal, but we are sort of getting there now with. Or sort of bedtime routine. And yes, I can just tandem feed them. So once I get her her nice and calm and sort of in bedtime mode and she's had a bath and she's nice and relaxed and we're sat in bed, I can, or, or sometimes like, um, do go be with daddy and he'll bring him in.

And then I'm talking about, I hate it when I do that, when I talk about mommy and daddy and like the third person, but, um, yeah, as if I'm talking to her. So, um, so yeah, sometimes Andrea will bring him in when she's sort of half asleep, if he's getting a bit fussy with him downstairs and I'll just put him on the other side.

Um, and like, lo behold, so he is not sort of gonna kick her or get in her way. Um, I find that really helpful. So what kind of 

[00:23:05] Emma Pickett: position are you using then? Just picture, just picturing you feeding both of them at bedtime. What's the positioning? 

[00:23:11] Nicola De Sousa: So I'll sit up in bed, propped up on pillows so that she can just kind of roll off me into the bed when she's finished and as she'll be in just a cradle position.

She sort of, 'cause she's big and now she just sort of lies next to me. Um, but she'll be kind of in the crook of my arm and then he'll be rugby hold on the other side, obviously on other side. And I'll just so that his body's kind of away from her so he is not wriggling around and you know, near her face.

So that sort of stops him from interrupting each other. 

[00:23:39] Emma Pickett: Thank you. Okay. I'd love to get stuck onto the questions, but before we do that, just tell me a little bit about his tongue tie. So he had it, he had that resolved, did he? Yes. And you are, and you're comfortable now Things will go okay. 

[00:23:49] Nicola De Sousa: Yes, and I think for me professionally, having done my qualifications and so I understand tongue tie, you know, as a theory and I know what to look for and I know what all the issues.

But actually having one, as much as it was really unfortunate, it's actually probably professionally been really good for me to actually experience it and know what it's like. And it's really made me realize just how easy it is for your breastfeeding journey to be. Hijacked by that, you know, and how fast if you don't know what you're dealing with, things can just unravel for so many women and it's just made me, yeah.

So yeah, so much more aware of that. But, um, it was undiagnosed by two different midwives. I saw it straight away. And two different midwives said that he didn't have one, and I knew he did. So there you go. So if I wasn't, if it wasn't me or, or if it was me first time round with Mikayla, I would've just thought, oh, well she hasn't got one then.

I mean, I wouldn't have even asked because I wouldn't have thought about it to ask. Um, but that just shows, you know, you've been told by two different people. There isn't a tongue tie, so you go home thinking, well, there's no tongue tie, so it's got to be something else. Or you just persevere and you don't get checked any further.

But he was really, really restricted, even with really exaggerated latch. He would couldn't stay on for more than a couple of seconds. He'd be slipping off really uncomfortable. He wasn't getting much. But again, I only knew all of this because I had experience. And that's what really worries me is about first time moms who don't, you know, who haven't done a qualification, who have never breastfed before.

Like me, I had no idea what was doing. No, no family or friends that had breastfed really apart from one friend, um, who was in the UK at the time. So that was kind of a remote, remote advice. Um, but I'd never, yeah. Had no experience whatsoever. And so for women that don't, trying to navigate that or having it misdiagnosed, you can just see how that means.

Breastfeeding eventually comes to an end. 

[00:26:01] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:26:02] Nicola De Sousa: Sorry. If you can hear a baby trumping in the background, by the way. 

[00:26:05] Emma Pickett: It's okay. We've all been there with the trumping and the baby. Um. Okay. Okay. And do you have any plans for Mikayla's feeding? Are you gonna let herself wean at the moment? What are you thinking?

Have you got any particular goals with her? 

[00:26:17] Nicola De Sousa: Um, I'm just gonna let her do it at her pace. Um, with her kind of increasing being at nursery and then obviously in the not too d future in September, starting preschool. You know, those kind of days will no doubt get a bit longer and I'm sure it will kind of come to its natural and in not too, in the not too distant future.

But I think for now it's just such a reassurance for her and it has picked up a lot because of Diego coming along. So I'd be really, I, I'd be, this would be the last, the, the, the very last time I would think of weaning her, um, because I feel like it would be very emotion. It would, it would link it to him and I don't want that for her.

So, yeah, no, at the moment I'm just leave it as it is. Manage the aversion as much as I can, and, um, keep going for her sake and hope that it, hope she weans at some point in the not do distant future. 

[00:27:15] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Well, she will at some point. Yes. Um, but yeah. Okay. That's, she's a very lucky little girl. 

I want to tell you about my brand new book called The Story of Jesse's Milky.

It's a picture book for two to six year olds, and I wanted to write a book that was about weaning, but also not about weaning, because breastfeeding journeys end in all sorts of different ways. So Jesse's story is presented as having three possible endings. In one ending, his mom is pregnant and Jesse's going to share his milk with a new baby.

In the second, his mom is getting really tired and it's time for some mother led weaning. And in the third, we see a self weaning journey as Jesse's attachment to breastfeeding gradually fades. There are beautiful illustrations by the very talented Jojo Ford, and the feedback from parents so far has been so lovely and touching and I'm really excited to share the book with you.

If you're interested in my other books for Older Children, I have the Breast book, which is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And I also have two books about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding for a 10% discount on the last two.

Go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code. Mm PE 10 Makes milk picket Emma 10. 

Right. Should we have a go at some questions? Yeah, sure. Should we, right. Okay. So I've got the list here. You've got a yoga in your arm, so I'll, I'll read the list. Thank you. 

Uh, so question number one's quite a long one and it's quite niche, but I think it's important to answer it 'cause this person may not get an answer from anywhere else.

So it says, my toddler self weaned when they're about 21 months old. During my pregnancy, I seemed to stop producing milk at about seven weeks, but they happily dry nest until around 13 weeks. When they decided they were all done booby over the course of a couple of weeks, my hopeful dream was to make it through pregnancy to keep all the benefits breastfeeding holds for us as a family.

So it was a gut punch for her to self wean before I was ready. Now I'm 22 weeks. I still offer occasionally when she expresses an interest, but she seems to have forgotten how to latch. It's shallow, like sucking a straw and she says, all done immediately. Is there any chance we can successfully nurse postnatally given she's already forgetting, or are we really just all done?

[00:29:43] Nicola De Sousa: so hard, isn't it?

[00:29:45] Emma Pickett: Yeah, 

[00:29:46] Nicola De Sousa: I can totally understand. There's a lot of, 

[00:29:48] Emma Pickett: there's a lot of emotion going on here for this mum, isn't there? That gut punch is a, is a very vivid word. Um, I think you've already touched on this a little bit when we were talking earlier about some people's journeys. It's absolutely possible that she could have quite a long interval, I mean, you know, nearly 20 weeks and still be interested in breastfeeding or wanting to breastfeed when the baby comes along.

And the bit about not being able to latch, I suspect that's connected to there not being much milk there. And when milk volume has increased and she starts to naturally swallow in response to your let down, her latching could transform. Amazing. So I don't think amazing. Yeah. I don't think we can say that this mum is all done.

I just don't think we know what's gonna happen. But it is absolutely possible that when the milk arrives, she will move into a swallow pattern and it will be comfortable and that it won't be that sort of straw sucking anymore. Yeah. But what's difficult is no one's gonna be able to guarantee anything.

[00:30:43] Nicola De Sousa: No. And they, they do say that, you know, they can, like I, like I talked about before, reactivate that, that, you know, the nursing as soon as baby comes along and she probably will show, I think it's a little girl, isn't it? I'm saying she, yeah. 

[00:30:57] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:30:57] Nicola De Sousa: She will show an interest again once the baby is there. Um.

And a lot of, you know, a lot of toddlers do, don't they as assume even the ones that have, we, they show an active interest, they want to try it again. They wanna reme, you know, they want to, yeah. They want to be involved in that again, especially if it's not long since she stopped and it isn't, you know, it's very recent still, and I totally understand how one feels about, you know, this being kind of the rug pulled from under her and let's hope that she does just latch again.

And I suppose if, I know that there are a lot of research does say that once they, once they've forgotten and it can happen at all different ages, can't it? That they sort of lose that ability to, to latch. But like you say, there's no reason why that's the case in this situation. Um, so hopefully for mom, this isn't the end and, but if it is, I think what I am learning is that, you know, there are.

Such beautiful ways to connect with them. Apart from that, you know, if this is, if that is the end for her and you know, you've got this new sort of, this new journey with the new baby. From what I've experienced from this aversion is I sort of felt like the, almost my only way of showing love to her or or my kind of default way was always breastfeeding.

And you know, just to reassure this mom that you know, there are your relationship, if it is the end, we'll move into a new phase of how you show love to her and how she shows love to you. And that will be beautiful in its own way. 

[00:32:36] Emma Pickett: Yeah. You've expressed that beautifully. Yeah, absolutely. Right. I guess I would, I would love this mom not to be holding out with a false hope and, and if there's any way she can kind of let go and just genuinely go with the flow and just see what happens, that would be the ideal.

I. And I know this goes without saying, but if the daughter picks up on her desperation, that's gonna be complicated. There's gonna be an extra layer of emotions that are difficult. So, so if she's got a friend she can talk to, if she's got someone knowledgeable about breastfeeding, she can talk to, to kind of express her feelings and work through some of those feelings, that would be great.

When you've got lots of pregnancy hormones, though, it's not easy to kind of go with the flow and, and there's a lot of emotion going on here, but, but bottom line is you may not be all done and let's see what happens. 

So the next question's about Aversion, which we've touched on a little bit. Anything about managing aversion in pregnancy?

We're at 32 weeks now, so it seems like we might make it, but it's been so hard and I've heard some people continuing to have aversion when feeding the big one even after the new baby arrives. 

[00:33:36] Nicola De Sousa: Yes, yes. Not many though, as Nico 

[00:33:38] Emma Pickett: says. Yeah. Yeah. I would not say that's the majority experience. I know from my, my survey I did a survey of just over 200 people and, and it was very rare for someone to experience aversion after pregnancy, but it happens.

You mentioned that it's worse for you at night. It's worse for you when you're tired. Has anything helped? Should you have any practical suggestions? 

[00:33:58] Nicola De Sousa: Um, distraction. So I'm just, I just sit and read or I sit on my phone and as much as I don't like sitting on my phone when I'm feeding her, and I've always liked to kind of have that connection with her during that time, needs must.

And it is a case of. Whatever you can do to take your mind off it. That's what I've found. And making sure I read something about being about dehydration as well. Yes. De can be such a huge a yeah, contributing factor. And obviously when you are feeding two of them, you obviously are more likely to be dehydrated, aren't you?

So I would say making sure you've got loads of water and you know, tiredness as well is a huge contributing factor. Or if you, you know, you need to feed the baby and they want to feed, or if I find that it's, you know, if it's when we're out and about and she wants to feed and it's really difficult, you know, physically difficult to try and feed them both, especially if you're out and about and you're trying to be remotely discreet.

So I suppose it's about minimizing the kind of other frustrations linked to the feed, if that makes sense. But yeah, when you're really tired and you, you really are ready for bed. And it's going on and on and on. They're the ones that, that really, I find the most difficult. But yeah, lots of water. I know some lots of people have taken magnesium and said, that's made a difference.

I take it. But I have, I can't say it has made a difference for me, but yeah, it's very much about your mood, I think as well. Or you know, you kind of, your baseline if you're already really tired and quite frustrated on that particular day anyway, it's gonna be worse. So I think just and, and I do like lots of deep breathing as well, while I'm going through more intense feelings.

So just sipping water all the way through deep breathing. And if you need to scroll through Instagram while they do it, whatever, whatever distracts you. Yeah. 

[00:36:00] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Lots of people report that bedtime feed. The tough one. I think especially if you're still working in pregnancy, that's often when you're more likely to be dehydrated towards the end of the day.

So really making an effort to make sure you've drunk before you lie down for that bedtime feed. And that, that feeling of frustration of my evening can't start until you are asleep, for God's sake. Just go to sleep. I can't fall asleep. You know, I can't relax until you're asleep. Yeah. So trying to own that bedtime feed in the sense of listening to something, you know, listening to your music, in your ear pods, listening to, um, you know, put audio book or a podcast so that time isn't you waiting to have some time for yourself.

You can try and take time for yourself during that feed as well. 

[00:36:42] Nicola De Sousa: And bring snacks. I some quiet snack, like cubes, you know, like cubes of chocolate. You can just eat while they're, there's not gonna make any rustling noises and wake them up, you know, something that, yeah. Anything to distract you. So if that could be food as well.

Yeah. 

[00:36:57] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. 

Okay, next question says, I'm terrified of getting pregnant because my toddler isn't close to being ready to wean. How do you get sleep? 

[00:37:07] Nicola De Sousa: I, um, asked that, um, lady on Instagram to rephrase it, and I think she meant not being able to get pregnant because her little one's not close to weaning.

So I think she, I think that's what she meant by that question. Oh, okay. So she meant Yeah. 'cause I didn't, I didn't understand it and then I, I asked, oh, I thought she just meant 

[00:37:26] Emma Pickett: that she couldn't picture the life with a baby. Well, let's answer it both ways then. Yeah. So I thought, I thought she meant I can't imagine having a baby.

I can't imagine how you do this when you've got a, who's not ready for ween. How do you get enough sleep with two of them? And so to answer that question, I would say. Your child now is not going to be the same child in nine months time, assuming you get pregnant right now, that they're gonna be a very different child.

So your life now is not life when baby's born. And I'd also say that it's about half of children do wean in pregnancy and that's a combination of, of self weaning and a nudge because the milk supply's changing or something parent led. So you really don't know what life is gonna be like. But how do you get sleep?

I mean, obviously you've got given one example of of using your partner to help you with night weaning, but even if you don't, night wean oxytocin is super handy. And actually we know that even moms who get disturbed and aw awoken regularly through the night will go back to sleep quickly. And even if they have more frequent wakings, because they're tandem feeding, they will get enough deep sleep overall.

And you will find the support, you will find people who will help you make changes. If you want to make changes, you're not gonna be stuck doing something you don't wanna do. You can put boundaries in place if you want to. But yeah, so answer your version then the fertility version. Let, there's a question towards the end on fertility.

So let's leave that for the, for that, for that question and we'll talk a bit more about getting pregnant, um, when you don't want to necessarily change your breastfeeding patterns. 

Next question says, I'm pregnant, getting quite a lot of pain when my toddler latches, but otherwise all good. Is it likely just pregnancy sensitivity? 

[00:39:02] Nicola De Sousa: that I found that So, yeah, I would say yes because you, all of those hormones, you just, you do get a lot of nipple sensitivity, even if you're not feeding.

Um, so I remember that from my first pregnancy. So I would say it's most likely that it could also be the change in the way they feed as they get older. 'cause I have noticed that with Mikayla as well, that the sensation of her feeding has changed, you know, and it is sort of always evolving, um, as she gets bigger and.

You know, she, as she's changing physically, it does it, the latch does change. Um, or the sensation of feeling does change. But if everything else is good, then that's, that's brilliant. And if there's no aversion at the moment and um, everything else is going well and if it's not causing any damage. So I think if there's this, I suppose it depends on whether it's pain or discomfort, but you know, as long as if it's, if she can tolerate it, if it's just discomfort caused by hormones and she's okay with that and it's not causing any damage, any nipple damage, then I suppose she could kind of, as much as it's not great to have any discomfort, she could persevere with that.

It would be if there was pain, you know, and it was causing actual damage to her. And, you know, that could cause a whole cascade of future issues that I'd be. I'd be worried. 

[00:40:27] Emma Pickett: Yeah, if there's damage, if there's missha that's gonna be positioning attachment related. And even at two and a half it's possible to, sorry, I dunno how old this child is, but even if the child is, you know, Mikayla's age, it is possible to make changes to positioning.

You know, you just want to check that the child's doing that lovely head tilt, that you've still got chin contact. Um, that they've obviously got a gape that they're not twisting their head and one cheek is touching and the other cheek isn't touching, which can happen a lot with older children. So going back to the basics of positioning attachment, if as children get older and bigger, they often sort of start to come over the top of the breast and nose dive into the breast, and we want to bring them back down again to come back to looking up at the breast.

So if they're, if you're doing a sideline position at night, as they get older and longer, you need to have them lower in the bed. So they're, they're still going to be looking up at the breast and doing that nose to nipple. So if you're in pain, and as you said, there's any damage, if there's any reshaping, don't assume you've got to tolerate that.

Yeah. Get some support with positioning and attachment. But if latching is good, um, and you're not getting any missha, it, it may well just be hormone sensitivity and that can come and go. Some people have it worse at certain points in their pregnancy than other times. Um, sadly, some people do have it all the way through most of their pregnancy.

Um, and you just have to make a decision about what you feel you can manage. 

[00:41:41] Nicola De Sousa: Definitely. And I think one thing, an extra thing to add is they do get very lazy at that age about how they, you know, how they position themselves because they don't need. To work. You know, they don't need to be in a really optimal position for them to get the, to get the feed, to get the milk.

So I would turn off any distractions like tv, like anything else in the room that might, you know, distract them because they get quite, or Mikayla has got very lazy with her latch. And if there's distractions or if she, if she can do two things at once, so to speak, like sometimes she wants to read a book while she feeds or me read her a story or watch tv.

So I just tend to say no to, you know, anything else going on in the room or try and minimize the distraction so that, like you say, you don't get any head turning that can exacerbate it. 

[00:42:29] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Now I know it wasn't your experience to have a drop in supply, but also if there is a drop in supply that can affect latching as well.

So children will sometimes do a compensatory suck or clamp down in an attempt to try and get a bit more milk out. So sometimes discomfort is related to supply dropping. And if that's the case, unfortunately, sometimes you do have to cut feeds a little bit short if they, if they're dry nursing and, and clamping as a result of that.

Okay, next question says, I'm breastfeeding my toddler who's also two and a half. I'm pregnant with my second. I'm worried that my supply will come to an end midway through and my toddler will be upset. I'd really like to tandem feed if I can. 

Okay, so I know your experience was no change in your supply, which I'm really happy was your experience.

We do know from research, and this is reported in adventures in tandem nursing, written by Hilary Flower, that about 75% notice a supply drop, what they describe as a significant drop, and about 18% will dry up completely in that. So that's 25% not being affected at all. What's difficult is we can't predict, there is no pattern as to why some people are impacted and others aren't.

It could be something about sensitivity to progesterone. It could be something about prolactin synthesis. We just, we just really don't know. So if someone tells me in their pregnancy that they're worried about their supply coming to an end, I think it's really important not to give false hope. So some people will troll Facebook and go, you know, tell me you were okay.

Tell me your supply didn't go away. And actually, and people will come along and say, yeah, I was fine. Yeah. We didn't notice any difference. Yeah, we're all good. You know, someone might hear your story Nicola, and think, oh, well I'll be, I'll be like, Nicola, I'll be fine. And actually, I don't think that is actually doing that parent of service.

I think it's better to say, you know what? Your supply might go. And that is scary. I know that's scary. Let's talk about what that might feel like. Let's talk about how you'll respond. Let's talk about what you'll do. I would say that it's my experience that when moms dry up, toddlers are often not that bothered, surprisingly.

So I think moms often imagine that the toddler is gonna be devastated and hangry and frustrated. But my experience actually is that toddlers kind of are very understanding about it. And they're used to the fact that sometimes there's a letdown and sometimes there isn't. And some days there's more milk than others.

They've already lived through that. So the idea that if you milk supply comes to an end, they're suddenly gonna fall to pieces. I just don't know if that's what I'm seeing. I'm seeing toddlers who are happy to dry, nurse, happy to suckle, even if there's not a lot of milk there. And you are going to produce colostrum.

So even if you're in that group, that dry ups in the first trimester, your colostrum is going to come along in the second trimester and there will be something. Yeah. So you're not gonna stay dry throughout your whole pregnancy. And there's every chance that you can tandem feed, even if you do dry up loads of children will dry nurse through pregnancy and then go on to tandem feed happily.

So I wish I could say, oh yeah, we will wave the magic wand. Your milk supply will be fine, but it might not be, but you're still likely to be okay. 

[00:45:21] Nicola De Sousa: Yeah, definitely. And like I said before about the other scenario, you know, I very much left my fertility to nature. I, I, I'm leaving Mikayla's wean into nature.

I'm just leaving everything you know. In a sort of lazy way, in a sense that I just want to not make decisions, so I'm just leaving it to whatever happens. And, you know, if this does happen, it is because it's happened naturally and it's nothing you've done wrong. It's nothing you could have controlled.

And like you say, most children are quite accepting of it. And if it does mean, you know, the end of the feeding journey, it's happened in a natural way. And you know, like I said, there is, you know, there will be a whole new phase to, to your kind of relationship and hopefully there'll be able to stand and feed later on when the milk does come back.

But even if they don't, the kind of kisses and cuddles that I'm getting now from her as she's feeding a bit less, there's a, a whole new, you know, beauty to that and. You, you don't feel like they're, they're showing you affection for boob. You know, you get in it for a different reason and you know, some people report that they actually feel a deeper emotional connection when it's not because of boob, you know, and that closeness that you're getting just because they literally just want to be close to you.

Um, so, you know, I'm trying as well when I think about the longevity of my breastfeeding journey, to think about what other wonderful things will come out of it when they do eventually come to an end. Um, so 

[00:46:55] Emma Pickett: yeah, that's a lovely way to look at it. 

Okay. Next question says, how should you manage the early days to ensure the newborn gets enough?

[00:47:04] Nicola De Sousa: Well, like we said, you know, tandem feeding actually helps you milk supply, if anything, because we're, we're making sure we've got that supply and demand in place. And so. I was feeding a newborn on demand and feeding a toddler on demand. So you absolutely, you know, you're, you're gonna have a really robust milk supply more so than with just a newborn in theory.

And a lot of people say, oh, feed, feed the newborn first, and then the toddler, you know, to make almost to, you know, to make sure that they've, they get more milk. But I found that my let downs just keep happening, keep happening. And I've never, I've found that my supply is really, really strong no matter what order and no matter what time I feed them.

Um, and that hasn't made any difference. So I think, like we said, like we briefly touched on, a lot of people are worried about their supply almost being damaged or there being nothing left for the newborn. That's just not the case with me at all. And yeah, I feel like my, my supply is just really ramped up, but also very quickly stabilized.

This time around in comparison to the first time. So I think she's really helped that, like I said, helped with engorgement and my supply because I sort of fed all the way through pregnancy. I think it's, it's stable now, much quicker than it was the first time. Okay. 

[00:48:29] Emma Pickett: So the only thing I would add to that is in the first kind of 72 hours when you're just pro producing colostrum, that's the only time that I think you need to perhaps think a little bit about newborn going first.

So it, we have got more limited amounts of colostrum. It is possible if a toddler went first that there would potentially not be enough colostrum for a newborn. So in literally in, we're talking like the first two or three days, you want to check that the, the newborn does go first. Um, and then, and then the older child comes along afterwards.

But as soon as your milk comes in and the sign of that will be. Obviously engorgement and changes to baby's nappies and the stools changing from that transitional stool to that lovely mustardy, yellowy, corma curry type poo. Um, moving to those six wet nappies and more heavy wet nappies. Once that milk transition's happened, um, then restricted feeding is not necessarily gonna be an issue, and, and you can pretty much feed on demand, but the only time we don't feed on demand with the older child is, is that that really, really early period when you're just producing colostrum.

Okay, next question says, managing boundaries around feeding for older child. While the baby gets unlimited feeding, I'm almost due to have my baby and my older child is finding it hard as we do timed feeds for him, and in the feed is getting physically challenging because he's upset about it. 

So it sounds as though she's timing the feed and then when she gets to the end of the time slot, you know, she's counting down or one minute or whatever it is, he's getting a bit upset about it.

So. Doesn't sound like the timing is working. It doesn't sound like that's a method that's working for him, and if that's true, it's, it's really okay to put that to one side. It sounds as though the timing is causing him more anxiety and, and not really getting into a good place. And I totally appreciate you might be doing that because you're in pain.

But if you're doing that because you want to restrict his feeding when the baby comes, I would probably suggest you do that in a different way. So rather than timing feeds, if you do want to limit your older child feeding, I think it's better to limit the number of feeds they have in 24 hours. And talk about how you know, mommy makes enough milk for the baby and I make enough special milk for you three times a day or four times a day, and however many times you think you can feed without restriction.

Because I think if every feed has a time limit on every feed has that hanging over it and you don't enter into that emotional connection in that feed. Um, so I would suggest abandoning the timing and focusing on number of feeds rather than, um, the timing thing. What would you say? 

[00:51:03] Nicola De Sousa: Yeah, I would say if you're going to have the baby, if you're gonna latch them both, you know, in tandem, feed them at the same time, timing the older one and not the young one, that's gonna be quite a stark, you know, quite an obvious I'm being treated differently than the baby.

What I tend to do with Mikayla when they're both on, and I'm trying to, you know, hurry her along, is think of ways to distract her. So I'll, I'll say, oh, would you just pass me that over there? Or, oh, is, is that, is that so, is that the post or anything, you know, to distract her. And she'll just come off, she'll be distracted for a minute and then she'll just, she won't go back on most of the time and she'll just go about her thing and go, you know, oh, what?

Or I'll remind her of a toy she's got, or, or I will put the TV back on and I'll say, oh, you can't have TV and boob at the same time. You know, so there are, you find these ways where. They feel that they've actually unlatched themselves, so they feel that they've been in control of that. But actually you've stopped it.

But to do the counting down with her while he's on and he doesn't have to count down, that wouldn't go down. Well, 

[00:52:10] Emma Pickett: yeah. I love your idea about giving her agency. So you want her to ultimately, you want them to feel as though they're choosing to come off. Yeah. I mean, which is the, which is the opposite of the timing.

So if it's, you know, we can do this game after y afterwards or oh shoot, do you wanna go and get that toy ready and we'll get ready to play that? We'll go and choose a book or so something that they like that they're excited about, that they want to come off for. Yeah. And if you haven't got that, that's what you need to be focusing on.

Yeah. What are the things that you can do with your older child that are special that they are excited about, that they look forward to? Because that's, that's, you want 'em to choose to come off at the end of the day. 

[00:52:44] Nicola De Sousa: Yeah. Or even sometimes I just ask her a question that she needs to answer me and she wants to speak.

She needs to talk and so she needs to talk. And so just that moment she lapse where she comes off, speaks to me and I just put it away. She's forgotten about it then, and she's onto the next thing. So I think it's just those really discreet, well, probably not that discreet, but you know, for them they don't notice what you're doing.

But you know, they feel that they've come off when they wanted to. 

[00:53:10] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that makes good sense. 

So the next question says, how do you wean an older child while continuing to feed a younger sibling? 

So we could do a whole other hour on this, but let, let's just touch on a few current principles. I, as you might know, I'm a big fan of telling the truth and being honest and being authentic and little people deserve that honesty.

So what I also don't recommend doing is talking about you are a big boy, you don't need it. You're a big girl. You don't need it. Because I think that's, that's, that is us gatekeeping that phrase. And that's really, I don't think he's healthy. I think the concept of being a big boy or a big girl is something that they own.

And if we are to project that onto them, I think that's leaving them feeling quite scared and vulnerable. So I would be super honest and I would say mommy's body is a bit tired in the same way I do when we're weaning. When there isn't a baby around. Mommy's body is a bit tired and mommy's finding it really hard to make milk for everybody all day long, and I'm so sorry about that.

My love. I wish my body wasn't tired, but it is. I've only got enough milks now for you to have four milks, three milks, the morning milk and the bedtime milk, whatever it is you want to say, you start by putting those boundaries in place by being honest and saying, I'm so sorry sweetie, but mommy can't do milk all the time and it's, and it's okay to be sad about that and I'm really sorry that mommy can't make or milk all the time.

What other things can we do instead? So putting a lot of effort into thinking about alternative connecting activities, things that they're excited about, um, and when they ask for milk and it's not their time to have milk. So again, having these tent pole feeds where you're focusing on certain feeds in the day that they know they are going to have when it's not a tent pole feed, as I said, validating emotions, making it really clear that you wish things were different, and you are sorry as well, that your body's tired.

So it's, you're not talking about, you're not even having a conversation about the baby, you're talking about yourself. So we're not talking about the baby needs the milk and you don't, we're not talking about mommy only makes baby milk. We're just saying mommy's body's tired. Um, there's a book you, the Booby Moon book that has the version Booby Moon with two.

I'm not a massive fan of the boob moon books just because I don't think they tell the truth about what's happening and why the milk is going away. So the booby moon with two book, the milk just, just flies away with, with no reason behind that. The milk just goes. But that might be helpful for you. You might find that book helpful just because there are some pages about the child being sad about that, or the child finding it difficult when the baby's feeding.

So there might be some pictures there that do connect with your child that you find helpful. What some children like is the concept of sometimes the baby has to have a time by themselves. Just like when you were a baby, you never had to share your milk. So sometimes we do sharing, sometimes we don't do sharing.

Um, and that's fair. Um, because when you were a baby, you didn't have to share. Some children are really into that concept of justice and fairness and that connects to them. But ultimately, I think it's just about telling the truth. I'm so sorry sweetie, but mommy's body can't do milk for everybody and I'm, mommy's getting a bit sore and tired, and what can we do instead?

Yes, definitely. And it's not giving them a cup of milk. That's not what it's it's about the emotional connection with you. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. 

[00:56:23] Nicola De Sousa: And I do think it's important to expect that regression as well, you know, and like you said about big boys and big girls, I've really, really, really steered away from that.

Um, because we have seen quite obvious regressions in potty training and you know, her making little noises like baby noises, you know, they, they really do yearn for, I'm still a baby, you know, I'm still your baby. Please treat me like your baby still. Not, obviously not all of them, but lots of, lots of moms I've spoken to have seen similar behaviors as well.

So trying to sort of make it into something that they're growing up now so they don't need it, I think can be even harder for them. Yeah. So yeah, still making sure that you do baby them the same way you did before. And although they suddenly seem so big and grown up in comparison, you know, as far as they're concerned they're not, and they just need that little bit of transitional, you know, I'm still your baby until they're ready to kind of come out the other side.

[00:57:27] Emma Pickett: Yeah. In fact, that reminds me of someone, something someone once told me about how when they weaned, they let their child do pretend breastfeeding. So they'd say, well, mommy doesn't have, you know, time now to give you a feed. 'cause remember we only do your feeds at bedtime and in the morning, but do you want some pretend milky?

And so they'd like literally do a little curl up into a little baby position and do a pretend breastfeed and that emotionally connected to that child and, and helped them. 

[00:57:52] Nicola De Sousa: That's lovely. 

[00:57:53] Emma Pickett: I would also just add that, just be careful. You don't get stuck in negotiation phase. If you've got an older child who's pleading and asking and desperate, and then you end up caving in, that's not leaving them in a safe space.

So before you enter into the weaning process, you have to be really clear about what you want to do and, and give yourself permission to wean the older child. Don't let the guilt influence your inconsistency. And if you've decided I only want to feed them in the morning and in the evening, and that's what I'm working towards doing, then that's, that's what you are firm about.

And you are firm in a loving way. Firm Doesn't mean discipline firm doesn't mean grumpy firm just means, I'm so sorry my love Mommy only makes morning milk for you and evening milk for you. But when we do have morning and evening milk, it's gonna be really special and we're gonna have big cuddles and I'm really looking forward to it.

And I'm saving your milk. And if you listen carefully, you can hear the noise of me making your special milk. Um, you know, just so, but, but sticking to what you've said, definitely. And not getting, not getting into the position of they're distress, they're upset, I feel guilty about that. I'm gonna change what I've said and go back because that means tomorrow is harder and the day after is harder.

[00:59:01] Nicola De Sousa: And they are searching for boundaries and consistency, aren't they? That's what they need, especially in a such an uncertain time for them that's full of, full of change. What they desperately need from us is consistency. You know, and you say one thing and you do it and you stick to it, you know that's what they're yearning for.

So anything that's adding more changeable things to their day is not what they need. So you're doing them a service in terms of, you've said this, you're sticking to it. They know what's gonna happen that is actually better for them. 

[00:59:38] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And even if they are sad, even if they're sad, it's still better to say, I know my love.

I know you are really sad, aren't you? Because you want boob. I know, sweetie. I know. Come and snuggle next to me. And that your sad too. Let's tell a story. Yeah. Let's tell a story about when you were a little baby and we had boob. Let's think about what we can do to help your sad feelings. But the answer is not okay.

Then when we'll just breastfeed. Yeah. And holding space for those big feelings is something that a lot of people struggle with when they've had a history of being a responsive breast feeder. Yeah. Um, yeah, I did an episode on breastfeeding boundaries and big feelings with the wonderful Shelly Clark. So go back and look for that episode too.

[01:00:12] Nicola De Sousa: And you're teaching them, sorry to add another thing, but you are teaching them that, you are teaching 'em about, about, about boundaries for their own body as well. You know, you are doing, you might be weaning because you've got, you know, really bad aversion for example. You're doing it for your own, you know, mental health, physical health, wellbeing.

You're teaching them that, you know, boundaries are there with, with bodies and you are, that's a valuable lesson for them too. You know, you are, you are holding your own boundaries and that is only teaching them something positive for themselves in the future. 

[01:00:42] Emma Pickett: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. I realize we could talk about that at great length, talking about guilt and all sorts of stuff, but let's move on to the next question.

So I'm currently feeding my four and a half year old and my two and a half year old. Sometimes my four and a half year old says there's no milk. But when his little sister tries a minute later on the same breast, he, she does get milk. So sometimes there's milk for my four and a half year old, and sometimes there isn't.

Is this a thing that sometimes your body will make milk for both and sometimes not?

That's an interesting scenario. So it sounds as though he's just not getting the letdown reflex. Yeah. Um, and that could be connected to his feeding pattern, that could be connected to his palate shape. Um, maybe something's happening to the shape of his palate that's making just a little bit more challenging for him to stimulate the milk ejection reflex.

So your body's making the milk. It's just not releasing the milk. And, uh, the mo I mean, it's, it's unlikely that your letdown is being inhibited by you. I think it's more likely to be connected to their feeding patterns and her ability at the breast to, to stimulate the milk ejection reflex is just a bit more efficient, a bit more effective.

So four and a half is, is a bit on the young side to kind of lose the latch because of face shape, but occasionally it might happen. Yeah. Um, that it might happen that age, depending if they've had a growth spurt or if their, their skull has changed shape. That was my thought. They might need, they might need a little bit of help with their latching.

Maybe some latching changes will help. Um, okay. 

Next question says, any tips for future me dealing with night feeds for a toddler who isn't ready to wean and still feeds multiple times a night while also dealing with sore sensitive first trimester boobs, or the change to colostrum in later pregnancy?

[01:02:20] Nicola De Sousa: We've probably answered quite a lot of that already, haven't we, from other things that we've talked about. But yes, I think it's definitely possible to keep going all the way through pregnancy. And I've, I've shown that it is even with aversion and, you know, sensitivity and so I would say again, it's about that.

Distraction, you know, distraction techniques to help you with, with those sensations. And like you say, checking latch is, is okay and there's no issues with latch first and foremost. And if you think there might be definitely seeking support from a lactation consultant to make sure that's okay. But then yeah, ensuring that you're hydrated.

You can try things like magnesium supplements and I did take a specific breastfeeding supplement all the way through my pregnancy and prior to it. Whether that made a difference or not, who knows. But I did take, you know, I, I was quite intentional about the things I was taking to make sure I was supporting my body in the best ways possible.

Yeah. The, the whole being distracted, having snacks nearby or watching, you know, putting the TV on or scrolling on your phone, reading a book. Um, anything that you can to take your mind off it if it's particularly uncomfortable. 

[01:03:35] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, she's talking about multiple feeds a night. Um, so obviously some of that may not be easy in the middle of the night.

I guess from another perspective, I might say, if they're not ready tonight, wean it doesn't mean that you can't make some changes. Yeah, yeah. You are allowed to make changes for yourself if that's what you need to do. And that may mean that you can breastfeed for longer, that may predict protect your ability to breastfeed for longer.

So if you need to try and get, you know, a block of five hours at night when there's no feeding, um, using sort of night weaning techniques, but only to partially night wean, that is something you are allowed to do. Yeah. That doesn't mean an end to breastfeeding. 

[01:04:08] Nicola De Sousa: And like, you know, with Mikayla, she has coped with it.

She's been fine. You know, I imagine this absolutely horrific transition and, you know, screaming through the night and, and it just wasn't, you know, they are, as much as people do say, oh, they're so resilient and you think maybe not for yours, they really are. And you know, they do adapt to changes very quickly and they will, and.

Having, hopefully there's somebody else who could comfort them. Maybe if you don't, 'cause it's, it's, you know, you might not want to be the one who's comforting them when you're not gonna breastfeed them, you comforting them or somebody else comforting them when they're not having a breastfeed, even if they're upset, that is not the same as letting them cry in a room, not being breastfed.

You know, they are being comforted and supported and held and that's a very different thing than just taking it away from them and not providing that, that comfort. Yeah. 

[01:05:01] Emma Pickett: That is not sleep training. We know that does different things to the yes to the brain. It's not, it's not the same thing. Um, yeah.

Thanks for that. 

Okay, next question is a nice quick one. If your toddler is poorly, do you need to clean the breast if the newborn is feeding on the same breast afterwards? 

[01:05:16] Nicola De Sousa: I was really thinking about this as well because we had a, a typical nursery sickness as soon, pretty much as soon as I brought yoga home and, you know, your, your nipples do excrete, you know, antibacterial.

Um, substances that, you know, protect and, and so there is that, you know, that is a, a backup if you're really, really concerned. And it was something really nasty I think I probably would have done. Um, but I actually didn't in the end, I just continued to feed them both on, on, on both sides. And one I've done reading around this, you know, they did a lot of people say that, you know, your colostrum and your breast milk is doing so much good at, you know, having received, you know, your body knows that your toddler's sick, you know, you are creating antibodies for whatever sickness that they have that's then being transmitted to the baby.

So it is incredible about, you know, how babies can avoid getting sick even in these situations when they're so close to one another. And my sort of theory was even if I did clean them and, you know, make, or, or only put one on each boob. They're very, they're in really close proximity anyway, both hand and feeling you, they're breathing the same air space and they're, yeah.

There's toddlers touching them and you're trying to avoid them touching them, but they're like, you know, poking their face and it's probably not gonna, it's gonna get transmitted regardless. Exactly. So, you know, try not to worry about it too much. All 

[01:06:40] Emma Pickett: you, all you're doing is giving yourself an extra job, to be honest.

Yeah. Um, you know, the, so there are very few pathogens that are just restricted to saliva and, and very few situations where saliva's not gonna be getting everywhere. When you've got toddlers and babies so often before your symptoms have even appeared, the pathogens are flying around all over the place anyway.

So if you won't, if you wait until somebody is sick, too late, they've already been exposed. So it doesn't, you know, things like chicken pox, you know, the exposure period is highest way before the spots appear, you know, to 48 hours before. So, so there is no evidence that washing breasts helps when one child is ill and the other isn't.

[01:07:15] Nicola De Sousa: And you actually could be washing away helpful. Um, yeah. Properties, couldn't you, you know, so you actually could be doing yourself an injustice in a way. 

[01:07:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And even sickness, bugs, even norovirus, there's still no value in, in washing, um, one breast. Um, the only time we might pay a bit of attention is, is if we've got impetigo or we've got a cold sore going on.

Yeah, that's, that's a little bit different, but that's a separate situation where you want to get some medical advice, but, but generally, do you wash a breast if someone's ill? No. Okay. Last question. And I, we could do a whole other hour on this last one, and we're running out of time, so let's keep this one a bit to to time if we can.

How does not weaning your first impact on your fertility? 

[01:07:56] Nicola De Sousa: For me, um, my periods came back after about 18 months. And yeah, absolutely nothing at all before then. And I didn't restrict feeds, I didn't do anything on purpose because apparently that's just how I do things now. I just leave everything to not be my decision and not require any effort on my part.

Um, so I just thought, we just agreed that we were gonna leave it to, to nature, so to speak, and just see what happened. And that's what happened is they just, it, it came back. I only had one and then I was pregnant, so it did nothing. Oh wow. 

[01:08:32] Emma Pickett: Okay. So one period and then pregnant the next cycle. Yeah. Wow. Okay.

Okay. 

[01:08:35] Nicola De Sousa: Um, so yeah, it did nothing to my fertility in terms of, I was very, very much fertile when they came back. And I think I wanted to leave my body to do what it wanted to do when it felt ready. And so I very much felt that by restricting feeds, say if I'd wanted to get pregnant sooner, that that would've encouraged my body to.

Come into fertility before it was really ready to do potentially. Not to say that that's not something that you can do. Of course you can, but for me it was obviously I didn't have to stop breastfeeding for them to come back. They did just come back. I didn't have to do anything intentional. But I do know that, you know, lots and I come across lots of women who their periods come back after three months, even exclusively breastfeeding.

And I know women whose periods have come back have, have not come back until they've completely stopped as well. Yeah. So it is really variable for everybody. Um, so it just depends where you are in terms of what you want, you know? Are you wanting to get pregnant? Do you me asking how old 

[01:09:37] Emma Pickett: you are, Nicola?

[01:09:38] Nicola De Sousa: I'm 36 now. 

[01:09:40] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. So I think, I mean, I work in North London. We've got lots of oldies up in North London having babies in their kind of early forties, even mid forties. And I guess some people may feel they don't have, by the way, I'm an oldie too. That's not an insult to say someone's an oldie. Um, I guess some people may feel they have less luxury of time.

Yes, exactly. And theyre gonna have to, they're gonna have to rush through their breastfeeding experience maybe in a way they wouldn't necessarily want to. Um, I think your experience is common. Most people will be fertile while they are still breastfeeding. It's only a minority of people that won't be able to conceive while breastfeeding.

But some people will have a regular cycle and still not be fertile because they haven't got enough length of time between ovulation and day one of the next cycle. Um, so the length of their cycle, and particularly the length of the luteal phase is a problem. If you want more on this, I have an episode on lactation of fertility.

Why I interview the brilliant Carol Smith. Carol Smith's articles are the go-to on this one. She's got three articles, breastfeeding and subfertility that I would signpost you to. And if you are not getting pregnant, first of all, check your ovulating. If your cycles came back really early, it may be that you are not ovulating despite having a cycle.

If you think you are ovulating and you're still not getting pregnant, have a look at the length of your cycle and there are some things you can do to adjust your cycle. And lots of people I work with don't have to fully wean. They just maybe need to make some adjustments. Even just one slightly longer block overnight can bring full fertility.

Um, so yeah, tweaking often makes a big difference. Okay. Right. Let's leave it there. 'cause we've gone over an hour, which is considered rude in podcast land. I'm, I'm so grateful for your time today, Nicola. I feel like we could talk forever about some of these subjects and I love your approach of just kind of like what will be, will be.

When I need to change something, I'm gonna change it and I'm not gonna change it if I don't need to change it. Um, which I think is a message that all of us can absorb in our lives, whether it's breastfeeding related or not. Thank you. So very best of luck for continuing your tandem feeding journey. I'd love to hear from you again when Mikayla comes to the end of her breastfeeding journey, to understand how that happened for you.

'cause I'm always curious about endings, so maybe we can have a chat about endings when that eventually happens. Yes, I'd love that. Even if it's many, even if it's many years from 

[01:11:50] Nicola De Sousa: now, I know it might well be. And thank you so much for having me on. It's been great. Thank you. 

[01:11:55] Emma Pickett: Great pleasure. So have you got any message for anyone who's listening, who's tandem feeding right now, what would you want them to be left with?

[01:12:02] Nicola De Sousa: I think, uh, kind of what you've said as well is, is being really relaxed about how things happen and trying to leave, leave things out of your own control. Out of your own control. And, you know, the more I feel that the more we try and hold onto things and take control of things and, and. Get things to, to hit a schedule or fit into our life in some way.

Same with sleep as well, the more stressful it is for us, and I feel that the best approach is to go with how you feel, how your children are, and yeah, try not to take control over it too hard. You know, be kind to yourself. 

[01:12:39] Emma Pickett: I love that. Great message. Thank you Nicola. Thanks so much.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett, IB clc, and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.