Golnessa's story - triandem feeding

My guest this week shares her amazing journey of triandem feeding - what she calls the ‘path of least resistance’, though I think the rest of us would describe her as inspirational. Golnessa is a GP from Fife in Scotland, and is currently breastfeeding her three children, Gus (10 months), Gertie (3 years) and Gilligan (5 years). 
We talk about the challenges, logistics and the emotional support involved in feeding three nurslings. Golnessa shares how she and the children have adapted and managed their nursing relationship through two pregnancies and each subsequent new baby, and how the decision to triandem, or tricycle feed, was almost not a decision at all.

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. You may hear already one of the guests who is going to be joining us today.

That is Gus, who is 10 months old. And wouldn't it be great if I did an episode where I just talked to a baby and they could just answer all the questions about breastfeeding, but we haven't quite got that technology available yet. So, um, I'm gonna be talking to Gus's mom, who is Golnessa and she is near St.

Andrews in Scotland. And as you'll have seen from the episode title, we're gonna be talking about feeding three children at once. Now these are three singleton children, all of different ages, and I, I'm gonna use the word tri andummm. Am I saying that right? Golnessa, what would you, have you ever used that word in real life?

To be honest with you, I did not 

[00:01:29] Golnessa: have any idea what it was called when you called it trium. I was like, oh, is that what I'm doing? I didn't know there was a word for it, so I'm happy to call it trium. 'cause triple feeding has a completely different meaning, doesn't it? When it comes to, um, yes. Feeding babies.

So, yeah. 

[00:01:46] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Triple feeding is the, is the experience of breastfeeding and pumping and topping up. And that's, that's slightly different. Not to say that trium feeding doesn't have its own challenges, but Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm, I, I reason I asked you how to pronounce is, I'm not even sure I'm saying it right.

Um, 'cause I'm bad at pronouncing things I see written down. So tandem is too, it's a tandem bicycle. Try. TRI means like, you know, tricycles and tripods and things that are three. I quite like the, uh, the, the term tricycle feeding. Actually, I know it makes no sense, but Right. I think you get to define it yourself.

So write tricycle feeding is what we're talking about today. Tricycle feeding. So you have Gilligan, who's five. Yes. You have Gertie, who's three, and you have Gus, who's 10 months, who's with us in the room and. I'd love to ask you about your experience of feeding three children, how you get to that place.

Um, did you make any decisions? What's daily life like? Let's kind of do a deep dive into that, and thank you so much for joining me to, to be willing to do all that. Tell us about today. So it's okay. Nearly 10 o'clock in the morning. Yeah. How many feeds have you done so far? Who's fed so far today? 

[00:02:56] Golnessa: Okay.

They all have, so usually I would've just fed my, um, youngest and middle child. My eldest had a, had a, basically sometimes when I'm tandem feeding the other two in bed in the morning, sometimes he'll come in and just very cheekily kind of latch on when one of the others isn't. Um, he, he really, he's a very sporadic feeder now.

He had a sickness bug last week, so he kind of was a little bit more regular. But I would say he's almost. Almost given up at this point. It's kind of every other day for, I mean, he only ever latches for minutes at a time. And a lot of that is just because it's not available to him most of the, most of the time.

My husband always says, you've only got two. And he, he's very good being older, he is good about the other two, kind of taking priority and, and also his interest has finally sort of diminished a little bit, I would say. 

[00:03:55] Emma Pickett: Okay. So he is at school now at, in, in reception or still in the preschool? 

[00:04:02] Golnessa: No, he's starting, uh, school in August.

Um, so him and my middle daughter are, um, at nursery. So yeah, I co-sleep. Gu to answer your original question, I, I co-sleep with Gus, so he's kind of feeding through the night and then when, when we wake up in the morning, then the other two will have got up, usually will have already got up with, um, their dad and they'll sort of hear us stir and come and join us in bed.

And then I'll be tandem feeding and his sister Gerty and Gilligan is usually having about having a story or just playing in the room. And as I say, we'll sometimes feed a little bit as well. 

[00:04:44] Emma Pickett: Okay. So as you say, you've got only got two breasts and that means that Gilligan physically can't always latch on, but Yeah.

But sometimes you just say when someone pops off, he'll, he'll sneak on. Yes. And I mean his, you said he is had a sickness bug. Did that mean you had the period of time recently where it was more, more frequent than that? What's the sort of, what's, what's happening when he's not? Well, I. 

[00:05:06] Golnessa: It was a combination of the fact that he wasn't well and also my, um, 'cause they both go to nursery, but he was off nursery and his sister was at nursery.

So it was just me, my youngest and my eldest at home together. And obviously I'm feeding my youngest a lot, so, and he was a bit poorly not wanting to eat much, just wanting to cuddle. So I think as a result of all those circumstances, I was kind of tandem feeding them, uh, in a way that I wouldn't usually, but in general, he will have, maybe have a little bit of like bedtime booby as they, they call it.

A lot of nights I just tandem feed with a story and my eldest is happy to go to bed with no, having had no booby. But some nights he asks. And to be honest, it's, it's so infrequent and so short that I just say yes when he asks. It's, it's really not at this point, not, um, that much, I don't feel it as that much of an extra burden on me or anything like that.

When Gus was first born, that was different. It was a lot, and I did a lot to kind of encourage him to reduce his amount of feeding because that initial transition to three was a lot. But now he doesn't ask very often and he doesn't feed for very long and he's so good about just being around when the other two are feeding.

He doesn't seem to resent it or get jealous, which was some of the issues we had initially. 

[00:06:32] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I'm glad you brought up the, the early days of Gus. So Gus, who's 10 months, so if we go back 10 months then yeah. Gilligan is just turned four T's two Gus is newborn. I'm guessing through your pregnancy you had been tandem feeding Gilligan and Gertrude.

Yes. During your pregnancy, what, what was that like feeding in pregnancy, feeding the two of them? Did you experience any problems? 

[00:06:56] Golnessa: Yeah, I think tandem feeding through pregnancy was one of the hardest phases of my breastfeeding journey. So far, I would say I had a sort of rocky start to breastfeeding in general.

We mentioned triple. I was doing a bit of triple feeding 'cause Gilligan lost a lot of weight or a bit more than the 10% cutoff anyway. Um, so I was triple feeding, topping up all that for a while. So that was like probably before tan and feeding through pregnancy. I would've said that was my hardest part of my breastfeeding journey.

And, and maybe it, it by a small margin still is, but tandem feeding through pregnancy was really hard. It was mostly because I don't know if I had the sort of emotional aversion that people to talk about, you know, that dysphoria that I, I don't think I had that, but I just had such sensitive nipples that it was just really uncomfortable.

Yeah, I remember listening to one of your podcasts and one of your guests talking about like sitting there with their child feeding and fantasizing about throwing out the window. And I've never felt so seen that was exact. I just wanted to, to rip them off me like it was so uncomfortable. And, and, um, I, I kind of just dealt with it through the first trimester.

'cause I think when I was feeding my son through my second pregnancy, it eased off after the first trimester and I thought it might do that again. Um, but then when I got to sort of, I don't know, 15, 16 weeks, and it was still really uncomfortable, I just, as much, much as possible was trying to cut down the number of fees, particularly for my, at that time, my youngest, and the amount of time that they said, you know, one story at bedtime and then that's it.

[00:08:42] Emma Pickett: So nipple sensitivity was, was a real. Problem by the sounds of it, but Yeah. But you kept going and you wanted, you wanted to keep going. Yeah. I mean, this is gonna sound like a strange question, but one of the things I sometimes imagine for people who are kind of tricycle feeding is, is you don't actually sit down and think about it.

Make a pros and cons list. Exactly. Talk about it with your best friend, you know, D, discuss it with your therapist. It's just day by day. Yeah. Is the effort that it takes to stop someone feeding greater than the effort to continue. You just end up, you just end up continuing. 

[00:09:19] Golnessa: Exactly that. Exactly that. And I think, you know, I'm always getting, you know, when people kind of find out or see you tandem feeding even, or certainly if they find out you're feeding three people sort of say, oh my God, wow.

How do you do that? And it's it exactly as you say, you just fall into it. It's the path of least resistance. Of course, it seems like a crazy amount of effort to feed three children for almost a year, but on each individual day, as you say, the, the battle to stop one or or all of them would be so much greater than to just feed them in that moment.

So you, you just carry on. And I didn't have conversations with anyone about it. I mean, when I was pregnant, my husband would joke and even I would joke with the children about, you know, what are we gonna do when the baby's born? I've only got two boobies. You're gonna have to share. You know, stuff like that.

And, uh, my oldest was really sweet. He'd say, oh, don't worry, mommy, the baby can have my boob. Oh, bless his cotton socks. That's so sweet. Yeah. So, you know, we talked about it in that way. Um, but I guess I just sort of thought. The way that you can't control what, what, what your baby's gonna be like, what gender they're gonna be, how they're gonna sleep, how what, you can't control anything.

So I just thought they'll come and things will just shift and we'll adjust. So I, yeah, I, I wasn't that all worried about it. I thought it probably would encourage my eldest maybe towards weaning, which wouldn't be a bad thing. Um, but I've always, I say always when I, when I started breastfeeding, I didn't, I didn't even know that people breastfed beyond the year, let alone have the sort of intention to extend breastfeed myself.

Um, and, and again, I fell into that. But as I fell into it and learned about all the kind of benefits of it, I never wanted to forcibly wean him or subsequently his sister. So if it's at all possible, I'd like to natural term wean all of them. 

[00:11:18] Emma Pickett: It's interesting that you say that you didn't even know people fed past one year, and here you are now feeding a five yearold.

A 3-year-old. A 10-year-old. Yeah. I mean, you are a classic example of what often happens in the uk. We just, we just follow our guts. Little people have their guts too, um, you know, literally and, and metaphorically, and we just go with the flow, literally a metaphorically, and you end up where you are. Um, so you don't have to be the member of some, you know, extreme cult.

You don't have to sign up to some organization that supports breastfeeding beyond the age of 10. You just, just do it. And, and so you mentioned that your early days with Gilligan, you did have some breastfeeding challenges and you were triple feeding for a little bit. Was breastfeeding kind of part of your family?

Hi. History. What was your kind of relationship to breastfeeding before you got pregnant the first time? 

[00:12:03] Golnessa: My parents were older, so we were kind of the youngest children in the family, so I didn't really see other children being breastfed around me other than, you know, a little bit out in public, I suppose.

And my mom breastfed, she did breastfeed us, but all of us, I think she was kind of combi feeding from the start. And I don't think any of us were breastfed more than a few months, Matt, to say the way that she's seen me breastfeed and continue to breastfeed. Now she's very, I dunno, you can kind of tell that she regrets the advice that she got.

She, she was kind of made, always made to feel, or at least that's how she received it, that her, her milk supply wasn't enough that she needed to supplement. And yeah, she sort of, so she saw me get through the initial struggles that I had and I think, you know, she's, she's very supportive and complimentary and, you know, telling me what an amazing job I've done and, and things like that.

And. I can see that there's a kind of, I don't know if regret is the right word, or a kind of sadness that her own breastfeeding didn't, didn't go a similar way, I guess. I think 

[00:13:11] Emma Pickett: lots of people in the generation above us have, have, have had a rough time because, you know, in the seventies and eighties and nineties, you know, breastfeeding support was not what it is today.

It's still obviously not quite what it should be, but, but people were often told to restrict the amount of time they fed in terms of minutes or feed only every four hours. And, you know, it was so difficult for women to get breastfeeding off to a good start. And, and I think we have so many people in the generation above us who are dealing with that kind of, that sadness that, you know, grieving the loss of their breastfeeding journey.

And, and you know, it's so, it's so lovely that your mom is able to kind of come through that and, and support you and be proud of you and, and despite her sadness, you know, change that into a positivity and supporting you. And what about your husband, your partner's family? Do you know? I don't 

[00:14:00] Golnessa: even know. I don't even know if, if my, so my husband is one of four and um, that's funny, isn't it?

I've never even asked or hi. His mom has never really mentioned whether, 

[00:14:16] Emma Pickett: yeah, 

[00:14:17] Golnessa: I don't even know if he was breastfed. 

[00:14:20] Emma Pickett: I guess if you are, uh, trium feeding, it's not something you can necessarily do quietly in the corner of the room. I mean, if you are, if you're going to go to another room, you've got a crowd of people follow following you, it's pretty, it's pretty obvious what's gonna happen.

Yeah, true. So she presumably, she presumably knows that you are still feeding everybody. She, 

[00:14:38] Golnessa: uh, she might not know that I'm still feeding Gilligan. 'cause like I say, Gilligan is so sort of infrequent and it will really only if it happens, it's, it's in bed in the morning or in bed at nighttime. So. The only people who know I'm still feeding Gilligan are the, are the people I talk to about it really.

'cause that's not something that I do in public with, with Ty. Um, I also don't often feed her in public, but sometimes I will. Yeah. It's funny with, with Gilligan, I sort of had a, pretty much from the time he turned two, I sort of made a, we're only feeding at home rule. And I think I had tried to talk myself into the fact that that was for practical reasons.

But if I'm completely honest with myself, I think I also had, I don't wanna say embarrassment, because that, that comes from me. I wasn't embarrassed to do it, but I, I think, I suppose I was a bit afraid of judgment for feeding an older child in public. And then when I, when I moved up to Scotland, I met a group of.

Like fellow moms who pretty much all had a child about Gilligan's age and all were still feeding and, um, which was just great. That's amazing. Yeah, I just felt so much more comfortable to feed him wherever, whenever, and talk about it and 

[00:15:58] Emma Pickett: yeah, that's really special. I wish everybody had that experience.

So you are feeding Gilligan, by the way? I don't, I hope you don't feel badly about your decision to no longer feed in public. I think, I think it's okay to feel embarrassed. It's okay. You know, not everybody can be an advocate sitting there, you know, in, in the middle of a crowded room flying the flag. Not everyone is able to do that.

Some people are introverts and, and some people are advocates and some people are able to do it and some people aren't. And it's, it's okay. It's okay to be whoever we are in, in society and in the cultures that we live in. I mean, you're on this podcast now talking to a, you know, a few people. So it's not like you're not gonna flying the flag.

You definitely are in, in, in a way that feels comfortable. So you were feeding Gilligan, you got pregnant with Gertie. Yeah. So you presumably at that point for the first time, did a bit of research around feeding during pregnancy and you say that you didn't really decide to stop, but you presumably you'd, you had some awareness that feeding during pregnancy was okay and it was something that you were able to continue.

[00:17:01] Golnessa: So I spoke to my midwife about it, the booking appointment, but she came to my house 'cause I was planning a home birth and she was lovely. We're so lucky to have a home birth team here in Fife in Scotland and who are just amazing and, and such advocates for physiological birth and breastfeeding and yeah, tandem feeding.

She told me about another patient that she had who had tandem, sorry, who had fed through pregnancy and was now tandem feeding and you know, that it had gone absolutely fine and I think I had some worries. I sort of said. You know, is there a point that I need to stop because is it gonna bring on labor or anything like that?

Or is it, are there any problems in the early days of the baby taking all the col, the, sorry, the toddler taking all the colostrum, you know, that sort of thing. And she was so reassuring about it and she said, look, your, your body is so clever or be able to meet the needs of both your children without any issue, and if anything, it would be beneficial to things like your milk supply and establishing in, in the early days and things like that.

So yeah, she gave me sort of full permission to not worry about it and, and go for it, which, which as you say, was my instinct anyway. 

[00:18:16] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Brilliant. That is so lovely to hear. Let's clone that midwife and Yeah, send, send her around the world. 'cause I, when I did some research for, on tandem feeding, not so long ago before I was doing a talk in Ireland, people I had conversations with the midwives.

And the midwives were like, oh, I dunno, actually, I, I dunno. It just wasn't coming up in their general training, tandem feeding. So it's so great that you had that, that someone who was knowledgeable and, and positive. So you talked about that sensitivity in the first trimester when Gilligan was feeding, but then that faded.

Yeah. And then what was it like giving birth? Did you do a home birth with Gerie in the end? Uh, 

[00:18:49] Golnessa: no I didn't because, so I had, I actually had Gilligan at home, which was why I was planning, uh, home birth second time round as well. But no, what happened actually is that we were, uh, he was having his morning feed in bed when I was.

35 and a half weeks pregnant, and he had this habit of, you know, jumping around on the bed and he just landed on me and my, my waters broke. Oh God. He landed right on my belly and just popped me like a water balloon, basically. Oh, 

[00:19:20] Emma Pickett: crikey. That's, that's a really 

[00:19:21] Golnessa: tough experience. So that was really stressful.

I mean, I immediately knew that was my home birth out the window, which was devastating. Yeah. But obviously my priority was to make sure that everything was all right. So we went straight into hospital and I was monitored for a little bit and, and then basically they gave me the option to get things going there and then, or just watch and wait and kind of monitor that I wasn't getting a temperature, that my waters were running clear, but to carry on to term if I wanted to.

So to 37 weeks. And I, I took that option. So you, you had to 

[00:19:56] Emma Pickett: stay in the hospital, did you? No, no. You were broken. 

[00:20:00] Golnessa: Okay. 

[00:20:00] Emma Pickett: Wow. So you No, I went 

[00:20:01] Golnessa: home. Yeah. They put me on a course of oral antibiotics and I went home. Well, I don't, I dunno 

[00:20:06] Emma Pickett: enough about the science of this. So, so there was, there was some water still there, presumably.

'cause you wouldn't have been able to continue the pregnancy without, so a sort of partial rupture rather than a, a full rupture I'm guessing. I don't even know, you know, I'm obviously not a midwife. 

[00:20:20] Golnessa: No, I don't even know either. I, I, yeah, it was kind of a sort of slow, after the initial gush, it was, I just sort of kept trickling for the, for the 10 days afterwards.

They, they sent me home on antibiotics. They told me to monitor my temperature and let them know if the water's changed color, you know, anything like that. But then they would induce me at 37 weeks when baby would be full term. And at that point, the risk of infection outweighs the risk of. Prematurity 'cause there was no risk of prematurity anymore.

Do you see what I mean? Okay. 

[00:20:51] Emma Pickett: Can I ask you a really nosy question? Of course. And of course. And tell me if this is outrageous. I'm just wondering the, the moment when Gilligan jumped on you Yeah. And you realized what had happened. I'm guessing going through your mind, you're thinking, oh my goodness is the baby.

Okay. But then you've also gotta think about protecting Gilligan's feelings as well. Yeah. And how scary it is for him to think, I've hurt the baby and mommy's got to go to hospital because I jumped on mommy. How did you handle everyone's feelings in that moment? Do you remember how you talked about it with him?

I just, 

[00:21:22] Golnessa: yeah, I think, um, I, yeah, I remember his little face. 'cause I, I felt this gush and when, when I felt it, I didn't know actually if it was waters or blood or what had happened. I remember just saying to Glen like, what, you know, what is it? Is it blood? And then when I realized what happened, I suppose I just tried to kind of control my own face.

'cause I think he had noticed my initial reaction and my panic. His little face looked really, really panicked as well. So I, I just tried to be really reassuring and yeah, what we dropped him off. That's right. I don't think it was even meant to be a nursery day, but the nursery very kindly just fit him in for an extra day.

So I just said to him, look, it's gonna be okay. We just have to go and get the baby checked out, but I can still feel the baby moving. And, you know, so I was kind of confident that the baby wasn't any, in any immediate danger. So I tried to reassure him as much as I could. And, you know, he was young at this point.

He was not even two yet. So, yeah, I think as, as much as that panic kind of transferred to him initially, I think he was pretty reassured at that point. And probably by the time he got to nursery. Had forgotten. I dunno. But that's the, the impression that I got that he, he got gone over it quite quickly. 

[00:22:38] Emma Pickett: I'm sure your instinct would've been right in that moment.

So, yeah. And I obviously, the fact that you were able to come home again would've been, makes a massive difference if you'd like. Mommy's got to go away for two weeks. Yeah. And stay in the hospital. That's a very, very different sort of experience for somebody of his age. Yes. 

[00:22:51] Golnessa: Well they did. They wanted to keep me in just for the one night and I actually chose to discharge myself and come back.

'cause I, I don't know. I just didn't, I just felt so sort of, I think that's one of the reasons that I had had a home birth with my first, anyway. Um, I just don't feel comfortable in hospital, which is ridiculous. 'cause I'm actually a doctor, I'm a gp. 

[00:23:14] Emma Pickett: Oh, okay. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Okay. So you are at home, you're resuming breastfeeding again with Gilligan.

Yeah. A bit gingerly, worried about what might happen next or you're, you were able to relax and into those feeds. 

[00:23:29] Golnessa: Not gingerly actually, because I thought if, if his feeding brings on labor, then so much for the better almost. Because what they said to me when they discharged me is, look, your, your body might, well there's a sort of 75% or something like that likelihood that once your waters are broken, you'll go into labor within 48 hours.

So I left thinking, well, in, in some ways then at least I'll have a na, you know, natural labor. 'cause in induced labor, it was always one of my sort of fears around birth. So yeah, I, I thought if, if his feeding contributes to that, then it's no bad thing because the, the baby's pretty mature at almost 36 weeks anyway.

So yeah, the, my only sort of fear I suppose, was. Because it had happened with him jumping on me was telling him to be very careful. And, and he was actually, so, you know, he obviously hadn't forgotten the incident because he, there definitely wasn't any more jumping on me after, after that. And my husband, Glen was kind of protective of, of me as well.

But yeah, we carried on, we carried on for another 10 days and then I was supposed to go in the morning after I was 37 weeks for an induction. But I actually went into labor that night just naturally at and on 37 weeks, which was, I was so grateful for. And um, yeah, I labored at home for as long as possible and then I went into the labor ward.

Um, and luckily their one room that had a birth pool was free. And, uh, I had a sort of wireless CTG monitor because of obviously the broken waters and infection risk and stuff. I had to be continuously monitored, um, which I was fine with. I agreed to, but they, they had one that could go in the pool. So I still managed to have a sort of unmedicated, pretty straightforward birth, which I, I could sort of scarcely hope for have given what happened with the 

[00:25:28] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that was great.

My waters. Yeah, that's great to hear. And, and just prior to that, was Gilligan still co-sleeping with you, feeding through the night? What was his sort of life like? Nearly at nearly two? 

[00:25:40] Golnessa: Yeah. Co-sleeping. No, actually he, he had been in his own, uh, like been in a, he only cossack with me for the first seven months of his life and at seven months old we did a sort version of sleep training.

'cause I was so done with waking up every sort of 20 minutes with him. Yeah. So, so he had been sleeping. And not breastfeeding at night since seven months old. 

[00:26:08] Emma Pickett: Oh gosh. Okay. Okay. Yeah. So that, that makes life, um, a little bit different in terms of you being able to get sleep and, and have that settled experience.

So he was, yeah, he was taking bottles in the night or not even having any milk at night? 

[00:26:21] Golnessa: No, I, we just night weaned him, which now when I think about it seems so early, but I dunno, he, he took so well to solids and he, he was just chunking on all this weight with, um, solid food. And I dunno, I just decided that, I decided he didn't need it at night.

But I think the reality of of it was I couldn't do it at night anymore. 

[00:26:45] Emma Pickett: And that's not a decision you've made since that's not something you did with obviously, obviously Gus is still going, you're still co-sleeping with Gus, so Yes, I'm still co-sleeping with Gus. Yes. 

[00:26:54] Golnessa: And with Gerty. Gertie, I think she was about, I.

15 or 16 months, something like that. I honestly can't even remember particularly how GI got out of my bed. So it was a much gentler process, if you see what I mean. There, there wasn't a cutoff at which point I said, right, you're out of my bed. I can't do this anymore. At some point, I think I just gradually started putting her down more and more in the kind of next to me.

And then that transitioned to the cot in Gilligan's room. And at that age, she sort of liked sharing a room with her older brother, and that's how she sort of left my room. Yeah. Um, but again, once she, once she left the room, that was it. Well, I didn't feed her at night anymore either, and she would, she would resettle, you know, with a bit of shushing and 

[00:27:44] Emma Pickett: that, that sort of thing.

And that wasn't something that was, I. Very distressing for both of you. It, it sounds as though from what you're saying, I mean, you know, we obviously dunno each other very well, but I have a gut feeling that if, if Gilligan had been very, very distressed, that wasn't something you necessarily would've pushed.

I mean, you've, no, your approach to breastfeeding overall is, is obviously very child led compared to, you know, 99.9% of the population. So, so I mean, I don't want to kind of rewrite history. You talked about doing a little bit of sleep training, which I understand that's the choice you made, but from what you're saying subsequently, it doesn't sound as though you would've pushed it if, if there was a lot of distress for everybody.

If he was, no, 

[00:28:26] Golnessa: and in, I mean, I say I night weaned him that there were still nights where he would sometimes end up back in bed with me when my husband or I couldn't resettle him and ev every morning in the early morning he would be back in bed with me and then we would. Feed and both sleep another hour or couple of hours in the early morning.

So is that really night weaning? I don't know, but it, it was definitely a big improvement for me in terms of the sleep that I was getting in the first part of the night, um, that change that we made kind of early on with him. 

[00:29:02] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I want to tell you about my brand new book called The Story of Jesse's Milky.

It's a picture book for two to six year olds, and I wanted to write a book that was about weaning, but also not about weaning, because breastfeeding journeys end in all sorts of different ways. So Jesse's story is presented as having three possible endings. In one ending, his mom is pregnant and Jesse's going to share his milk with a new baby.

In the second, his mom is getting really tired and it's time for some mother led weaning. And in the third, we see a self weaning journey as Jesse's attachment to breastfeeding gradually fades. There are beautiful illustrations by the very talented Jojo Ford, and the feedback from parents so far has been so lovely and touching and I'm really excited to share the book with you.

If you're interested in my other books for Older Children, I have the Breast book, which is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And I also have two books about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding for a 10% discount on the last two.

Go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code. Mm PE 10 Makes milk picket Emma 10. So let's go back to Gertie's, just been born. You're in hospital, you've given birth to Gertie. Gilligan arrives to say hello. What was his early breastfeeding like in those, those first few days of, of Tanem feeding them both?

[00:30:37] Golnessa: Yeah. So, um, yeah, Gertie was born kind of late at night, so we'd left Gilligan that afternoon with my mum and sister and gone into hospital and he was born that night. And then I spent that night in hospital and the next day we, we were discharged by, by sort of midday. Um, so we got home and Gilligan was having his afternoon nap and uh, Gertie was asleep in the car seat.

And so he woke up, we brought him down. He met her, and I'm trying to think when you would think their first tandem feed would be like the salient memory, but I actually can't remember it. I remember him meeting her and holding her and laughing and poking her on the nose and, you know, all that sort of cute stuff.

And I remember lots and lots of tandem feeds. But that first one, you know, it doesn't stand out for some reason. But anyway, I wonder 

[00:31:30] Emma Pickett: why, what could you possibly been feeling in that? Could you been maybe overwhelmed having just given birth and, and I hadn't really slept that night. Yeah, no sleep. And you've just given birth.

I, I could that possibly have compromised your memory in, in any possible way? Yes, yes, 

[00:31:45] Golnessa: that's true. But, but there it was. So they, he was so sweet with her. Actually, I just, I remember thinking that tandem feeding was, was a real kind of tool for bonding and avoiding resentment, you know, because, because you worry about your, your older child resenting the new edition and.

You know, you, you try and do things to avoid that, you know, have, have, have them. Don't be holding the baby when they meet them and, uh, I don't know, get a present that you say is from the baby. Not that I did that, but there, there are these things, you know, that we're supposed to or advise to do to kind of help that relationship.

But yeah, I really felt like the tandem feeding helped because they were so sweet. And it was just really quiet time because two year olds are like mad active people and one of the only quiet times is when he was latched on and they would be kind of eye to eye looking at each other, touching each other, holding hands, all that cute stuff.

And yeah, I really think that it was a, it was a bonding, the start of a lovely bond for them. 

[00:32:50] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Lots of people have said that to me. I think, and I think people forget that if you aren't tandem feeding, you know, the two year old's not gonna sit down quietly and do a bit of crochet. I mean, they're gonna be bombing around.

You've got to multitask and look after them and meet their needs. And, and it's, it's not like the alternative is something peaceful and easy. Mm-hmm. What you're saying about, I, I'd love, love your opinion a bit more about that, that thing that you often hear, you shouldn't be holding the baby when the older child arrives.

That, I mean, I have, I've heard that too. Yeah. And, and I cannot believe that that's based on evidence. I just, I don't, I don't think you can have a research trial where you say, right, all these people, your babies are gonna be in your arms. Your babies are gonna be in car seats and in cribs, and then we're going to visit your family every few months for the next 10 years.

Let's see how the relationships develop. You know, I, I don't think anyone's done that research 'cause I don't think it's gonna get past the ethics committee. So I just wonder where that comes from. The idea that you shouldn't be holding your baby, 

[00:33:46] Golnessa: and also do we think that the child is gonna think. You are not holding it at the moment they first meet it, but then you are holding, I mean, I don't know about everyone else, but then I'm holding that baby pretty much continuously for the six months that follows, you know, they're gonna see me holding that baby a lot.

So I'm not sure. You know, obviously they want your connection in your physical touch and your reassurance. Yes. But I think you can give all that while holding a newborn. I, 

[00:34:14] Emma Pickett: yeah, I think that must be where it comes from, isn't it? That they, they need to be able to physically come to you to have that cuddle.

Yes. 

[00:34:20] Golnessa: Yes. You don't want that baby to be a barrier between them and you in that, in that moment. That could be quite challenging for them. So, I suppose, but someone else could be holding the baby. Yeah. And, and if you're tandem feeding and the baby has latched on on one side and you've got, you know, you're inviting them on the other, then I, I don't think that is an issue at all.

So, so I suppose it's all about how, how you do it. 

[00:34:43] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So the conversation that you had with your midwife around. You know, there's enough milk for everybody. It's positive for your milk supply to, to be tandem feeding. Did anyone have that conversation with you about, you know, the first, you know, 36 hours or whatever before your milks transitioned?

That's the only time where you may need to pay a little bit of attention to baby going first? 

[00:35:03] Golnessa: Yeah. Yeah, they did. They did say, um, yeah, let the baby feed first, which instinctively I was sort of doing anyway. And I think it was a good, just a good way of reinforcing some boundaries with Gilligan as well.

But yeah, beyond that, they, yeah, that's all they said. Really let him go first, uh, let her go first, rather. 

[00:35:27] Emma Pickett: And what were his nights like, those, do you remember those early weeks? Did he have any regression in terms of waking? Did he want to see, visit you more at night? Was he asking for more night feeds?

What was happening with his feeding patterns? 

[00:35:38] Golnessa: Let me try and think. I mean, his feeding definitely increased, I think, right from sort of. End of pregnancy. And then definitely when my milk came in, it was kind of like, Hey, wow, there's loads of milk. And it, 'cause at that point they can, they can actually communicate verbally with you as well and let you know when there's no milk or when there's lots of milk.

Because I think there was a point in the middle of my pregnancy with Gerty where he was pretty much dry nursing maybe, maybe around sort of halfway through the pregnancy where my milk supply dried right up. Um, and I think some children who are feeding through pregnancy give up at that point, don't they?

But not feeling anything. It's been a real foody monster. It was more for sure during the day at night. I mean, I was co-sleeping with Gertie and my husband was in Gilligan's bedroom, so he would settle him if he woke in the night. But there was nothing, there was no sort of like screaming out, wanting milk particularly that I had to kind of deal with.

And I, I don't, I don't think, I think his sleep was. Was reasonable. But yeah, he definitely wanted to jump straight in and feed in the morning and, and more feeds throughout the day because I was sitting, feeding in a way that I wouldn't have been before the baby was born. Yeah. 

[00:36:56] Emma Pickett: So life pot is on, Gilligan carries on feeding, Gertie's feeding.

You didn't have the same challenges with Gerie around weight gain and No. And issues with triple feeding or anything, so, and then you get pregnant again. Yeah. And, and at this point, is there any moment of, Hmm, do I really want to be feeding too through pregnancy or as we've talked about before, you just decided to just go with, go with the flow?

[00:37:19] Golnessa: Yeah. To be honest, when I first found out I was pregnant, I suppose in the back of my mind I was like, oh, it would be good if, if, 'cause I felt like all the time as Gilligan got older, his feeding was very gradually getting less. So I just thought, oh, it would be quite good if he did wean during this pregnancy and then, you know, I can tandem feed again.

And, but I, I always sort of knew that I was, I was not going to push it. Um, that if it, if it happened on his terms in that timeline, it would be convenient. But that, that, if he still wanted to feed that somehow, if I could, I would accommodate that. Yeah. And then all that, all the discomfort came and I was just, I really tried to almost cut out any daytime feeding and just have morning and bedtime, which we Gilligan took to that.

Okay. Gerie still wanted to feed a lot during the day, so I would usually still feed her once, maybe twice during the day. I just tried to keep to a routine and, and use distraction that those were my main, I I never, yeah, that's kind of as firm as it got lot, lots of distractions, snacks, activities. I would say to people that, like, I actually find myself not sitting down very often because as soon as I would sit on the 

[00:38:47] Emma Pickett: couch, she would climb on me for a feed.

So I would think, oh God, not easy when you're pregnant. Not, not to sit down. Not easy. Definitely. 

[00:38:57] Golnessa: And it wasn't, it wasn't that I was consciously trying to not sit down, but I just sort of noticed that that's what I was doing because she would climb straight on me and then it would be uncomfortable. Did you ever say to 

[00:39:07] Emma Pickett: them, mummy saw, did you ever talk about Yes.

That you were struggling? 

[00:39:10] Golnessa: I did, to be honest, I, no, at first, but it got to the point that I couldn't, I couldn't really not like they could see my, my expression and, and yeah, and, and I would explain. That's why, you know, it's just gonna be just one quick story because it's really sore for mommy. And sometimes they would look concerned and sometimes they would completely like, well.

[00:39:35] Emma Pickett: Hard luck, love. I want to breast. Exactly. Yeah. Little people, little people's empathy comes and goes. Exactly, exactly. Was there, so did you have another conversation with a midwife? I'm just wondering if anyone has ever said to you, what are you doing? You mad woman, has anyone ever said that to you or implied that you shouldn't be doing what you're doing?

[00:39:54] Golnessa: Do you know what No, I, I, I think, you know, probably because of the people that I surround myself with in terms of other mums, um, and, you know, the home birth team who, as I said, are very pro breastfeeding and tandem feeding. I, all I ever got was positive, like, encouragement, and like, wow, you're a kind of super hero and stuff, you know, stuff like that.

So yeah, I think I'm lucky. I don't think, yeah, I don't think, it's very rare that anyone's ever told me to stop. I mean, I'm really grateful that my husband, Glen, has never. Never really made a negative comment about it in all the years. Um, you know, he'll occasionally joke to Gilligan, like when the other two are feeding and Gilligan asks, he might say, oh, come on, you're too old for that.

But it's, I mean, but it's duck to back to Gilligan and yeah, no, he's, he's been nothing but supportive as love as everyone really. So I'm very lucky. 

[00:41:00] Emma Pickett: I'm glad. I mean, you say you're lucky, but that's also should be the baseline, shouldn't it? It should be what you're entitled to. Yeah, that's true. I wonder whether that's, I wonder whether, as a doctor, you've got some sort of, don't mess with me, force field.

I mean, you, you can't, you can't know because you dunno what it's like to not be a doctor. But I wonder whether that protects you sometimes from other people's judgments because you've got that kind of, you know, obviously the health professional hat on. Um, I'm curious as to whether that's, that's a protective thing.

[00:41:27] Golnessa: That's, that's, that's a good point that I. Haven't really considered, but yeah, you're right. I suppose, especially in terms of other health professionals that I encounter maybe wouldn't advise me in the same way that they would, someone who isn't. 

[00:41:45] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Um, yeah. But it could, as I say, you can't, you can't know who knows what the difference that would make.

So tell us about, um, Gus's birth and the experience of feeding straight after that. Oh, his birth was fantastic. 

[00:42:00] Golnessa: It was like, I was so almost like afraid to hope for a home birth after the experience with Gerty, but obviously that's, that's what I really wanted having had such a positive experience with Gilligan.

And, um, so I was under the home, home birth team for my whole pregnancy. Got the birth pool and yeah, he was born downstairs here at home. And Gilligan and Gerie were, it was the early morning, so they had sort of started to get up and. I remember Gilligan having a bowl of Rice Krispies at the table, and with his other hand, he's sort of holding my hand as I, as I stood there, breathing through my contractions.

Um, so they were, they were both around. They weren't, neither of them was actually in the room at the moment of birth, but they, they heard, they were upstairs with a good friend of ours watching some pepper pig, I think. And they, they heard Gus cry and they both were immediately down the stairs. And because we, we'd had a practice run with the birth pool, and it had been around, they, they'd seen it, they'd seen it being blown up before they went to bed, the, the night before he was born.

And they were just so excited to get in. And I think at some point. Maybe when we'd done the practice run, I'd said that after the baby was born, maybe they could get in. So they had not forgotten that and they were just pulling their pajamas off immediately and driving in. And I sort of looked at the midwife like, is this okay?

Said, she was like, it's up to you. So when they came and, and then yeah, I was feeding, I was already feeding gu at this point. He'd latched on really quickly after birth. And so with the free boob, 'cause I was just naked in the pool, the, the free boob, they just were both sort of taking turns. So I was feeding three in this birth pool.

I hadn't even delivered the placenta at this point. 

[00:43:47] Emma Pickett: Um, I'm sure that helped to deliver theta to have Yeah, that's what the mid midwife said. That was what the said because I did the quickly after 

[00:43:55] Golnessa: that. So, yeah. And she, the mid, again, the mid the midwife who delivered Gus was, was just a bit in awe and definitely in support and just saying, well, this will be great for bringing in your milk, you know, and, um, no, definitely no criticism, no, not even note of caution, really.

[00:44:14] Emma Pickett: Just, yeah. Brilliant. So you don't have to worry about who was, who was holding the baby at that moment because Yeah, baby, baby was literally still attached to you physically. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I couldn't hand the baby off for them to meet, you know? Exactly. Yeah. Hover the baby 10 centimeters above your tummy, the length of the cord allowing you Yeah, yeah.

No, so, so it sounds as though they got stuck in straight away, which is fantastic. And how were those, you talked about that being challenging a little bit with aversion in pregnancy. Yes. Did the sensitivity and the discomfort get easier as soon as baby was born? 

[00:44:48] Golnessa: Yes, it did. It did. Yeah. I don't remember there being any issue pretty much straight away.

No. The challenge after that was because they had always t fed. Suddenly they were having to take turns because Gus was pretty much permanently attached on one side of the other, and that now is fine and you know, quickly became fine. But those initial initial days, especially when we were kind of working out that out, was really difficult.

So they're literally both wanting to attach this at the same time? Yes. I do remember this one particular moment where it was after you'd been born and I'd gone upstairs and I was in bed, had a shower. Gus was kind of sleeping and feeding on one side, and my husband had taken them out to a playground or something for a couple of hours and then they all came back, everyone in bed, both wanting to feed and they started having this.

Big row about it, you know? And I just remember Glen scooting them both up. Both of them were screaming in tears and him just going out of the room with them. And I was left there thinking, oh my 

[00:46:01] Emma Pickett: God, how am I going to do this flash of my future life? How's this gonna be? I just, I felt 

[00:46:07] Golnessa: really kind of silly for thinking that it would be fine and it would not work itself out.

And I was thinking, oh my God, I should have, you know, I should have weaned Gilligan, or I should, I dunno, I dunno what I was thinking. But yeah, in the end it was, it was all fine, but they just had to establish some 

[00:46:27] Emma Pickett: sort 

[00:46:27] Golnessa: of 

[00:46:27] Emma Pickett: rules around it. And did you have rules? I mean, did you have systems? 

[00:46:32] Golnessa: I mean, it mainly just, um, that Gus had to go first.

And that when Gus was feeding, they had to take turns on the other side. 

[00:46:44] Emma Pickett: And did you have a stopwatch? I'm just trying to imagine what you're literally doing. 

[00:46:47] Golnessa: No, I didn't have a stopwatch at bedtime. It was the one story thing. In the mornings. I didn't really have that much of assistant to it. I mean, most mornings they kind of had to go to nursery, so there would be some sort of, we have to get up and get ready endpoint.

But no, it wasn't as strict as a stopwatch. 

[00:47:07] Emma Pickett: So you just kind of the concept of taking turns. Yeah. And I'm assuming just imagining the person who's waiting, kind of lying on the floor, kicking their legs in the air. I mean, did you have, you know, your little bag of goodies that you carried around wherever you went?

Did you have, you know, I'll read you a story if you're not gonna breastfeed. I just Yes. Wonder whether you physically, what you're physically doing to help the person hanging on, waiting. 

[00:47:29] Golnessa: Yeah. What we would come, yeah, we, what we would do is I'd get 'em to both choose a story and then whoever was having their dobie, the other person would have their story and then we'd swap, which worked pretty well.

Yeah. And sometimes, actually, I, I've just remembered this. Sometimes I would like, maybe Glen would have the baby sleeping. This is when he was really newborn. Glen would have gus and it, because he hadn't said yet, I didn't want to turn and feed them because of the whole thing of let the baby feed first.

So I still had to kind of protect one side even though the baby wasn't there. So that was interesting. So what I did was I called it, I was like, this is Booby side and this is cuddle side. And then so somebody would be having a cuddle and somebody would be having booby, and then we'd read a 

[00:48:16] Emma Pickett: story and swap like that.

Okay. Okay. So it was tandem but not actually both feeding at the same time. The other one was just, just cuddling extra. Yeah. That was a funny one. And that 

[00:48:25] Golnessa: was really just an early days thing when the baby was sleeping and it was Gilligan and Gertie's bedtime. So they wanted to have their bedtime booby.

But I was just aware that Gus hadn't fed for a while and I needed to maybe, I don't even know, maybe I didn't. But I felt that no, you instinctively 

[00:48:41] Emma Pickett: felt you wanted to, which makes, which makes sense. Okay. So you mentioned that flash of, oh my goodness, I should have weaned Gilligan. Yeah. Um, just for that one moment.

Yeah. Did that flash ever return? Have you ever had that, that regret in, in a more profound level? 

[00:48:55] Golnessa: No, not really. I had one, not wanting to wean Gilligan, but I had one I. Uh, probably the only, uh, my, my mum made this comment. I think Gilligan and Gerie guess was only a week or so old, and I think they were both wanting to have Booby or something like that.

And I can't even remember what she said exactly, but it was something about like my husband's, 'cause they wanted me, everyone wanted me. It was mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy. And Glen was having to kind of forcibly take the older children away sometimes because everyone just wanted mommy. Um, and it was like really overwhelming.

And I, and my, I remember my mum making some sort of comment about, you know, like, maybe Glen, it would be easier for Glen if you weren't still breastfeeding, like the older ones. And, but that wasn't, that's not the word she used and I can't remember the word she used and she, and she tried to say it so sensitively that I don't, I feel bad bringing this up as a negative, but because it's not representative of how she normally spoke about, no, definitely not.

And, um, but I think I was so kind of early postpartum and I don't know to have someone say that, you know, it was hard because of the decision that I was making. I didn't receive it well, but it's not, not that we had a fight about it or anything like that, but I just kind of emotionally was a bit hurt by that, I would say.

But yeah, that, that, that was, that's probably the only time that anyone has said anything negative or encouraged a weaning that I wasn't trying to do or anything like that. But yeah, in terms of your question, whether I ever reconsidered it or thought I should have weaned him in a bigger way, no, because like I say, after that.

Initial after that moment of them all screaming for boob. There was a lot, still a lot of everyone wanting mummy, but it wasn't all around milk, I think. I dunno, it's just at the, I I've always found at the end of pregnancy and in the immediate postpartum that that is a very, I don't know, people say that it, the children can feel the oxytocin and they want that closeness.

I don't know how much it's to do with that or if it's a little bit of insecurity of the addition of a new baby, but yeah, I've always found that my, that's the way they are. They, they go very mummy, mummy, to put it 

[00:51:27] Emma Pickett: that 

[00:51:27] Golnessa: way. 

[00:51:28] Emma Pickett: And there's something quite effective about, you know, Gilligan says, I wanna feed, I need to feel connected.

Sh great, come and feed for three minutes. You're done. Click off you go. And the, and the alternative to that of, you know, let's snuggle for 20 minutes. Let's read three books. Let's, there's something quite efficient about breastfeeding. It does the job quite quickly. And, and yeah. You know, the alternative is true.

Mm-hmm. As I'm often saying, when it comes to talking about tandem feeding or trium feeding the alternative is not necessarily easier. The, the idea that that not breastfeeding makes life super easy is, is not necessarily based in reality. Yeah. And it's interesting that, that Glen has never been the one to say, my life would be easier if you ever speeding.

That's, no, he never come out of his mouth. And, and he's the one who would be saying if that was, that was the reality. Okay, so you've talked about how your aim is to just keep going and just let people gradually fade away and, and self wean as which is the direction that you're currently going in. 

[00:52:23] Golnessa: Yes.

And actually something we haven't talked about ly is that about when Gus was, I don't think he was even six months old. I've got a friend who weaned her little girl at four and we were chatting about it because I always love talking to people about their weaning journeys. 'cause I, I always say to 'em, 'cause I've not weaned a child yet, so I love to hear how people do it.

And she was telling me about this no more booby party that her little girl had. And Gilligan was unbeknownst to me listening to this conversation and later on in the day, he said to me, mommy, I wanna have a no more booby party. And I said, okay, well, you know, that means you are not having any more booby.

And he was like, yeah. And then he just started talking about this cake that he wanted and 

[00:53:05] Emma Pickett: mm-hmm. 

[00:53:06] Golnessa: So, you know, uh, so, so we planned it for a couple of weeks later and Glen made. This ridiculous cake of a little figure of Gilligan sitting in between a couple of, anyway you can imagine it. I can send you a picture if you want.

Fabulous. It 

[00:53:22] Emma Pickett: sounds so spoil. Look, it's funny. Gilligan's still feeding. So if we've got the cleverest 5-year-old in the world here, who gets, who's too much gets a cake, 

[00:53:31] Golnessa: we sometimes talk about it now. And he says, I just wanted a cake.

[00:53:37] Emma Pickett: Oh, fantastic. So you had the party, you did the whole kind of, we had the party. We had the party. One of my very talented friends drew a picture of a blue fitted booby and said on a card that said, bye-bye booby. And um, yeah, we had just a few select extended 

[00:53:54] Golnessa: breastfeeding, um, friends come. And celebrate with us, um, and eat this take.

Um, and then afterwards, to be honest, since then and then and up to then he had been reducing anyway and you know, some, if he tried to feed at a time that was inconvenient to me. I would say, hang on a minute, you've had your no more booby party. But I wasn't hard on it, you know, as he still continues to very infrequently.

Feed. But yeah, I just, I just realized, okay, we hadn't even 

[00:54:25] Emma Pickett: mentioned that he had a no more booby party. 

[00:54:28] Golnessa: That's fantastic. So, so you 

[00:54:30] Emma Pickett: had, you've had the no more booby party and then the first time he wanted to feed after that. 

[00:54:35] Golnessa: Yeah. 

[00:54:35] Emma Pickett: You didn't, you didn't think I'm going to enforce this boundary. It because, because you wanted it to come from him.

So when he changed his mind, that felt, that felt okay. 

[00:54:46] Golnessa: After Gerty had their bedtime boob, he sort of very quietly said to me, honey, can I have some? And he, the way he looked at me was sort of like, he was expecting me to say no. And I said, yeah. I said, Gilian, I thought you, you wanted to have no more booby.

And he was like, um, when I'm, when I'm five, because I think at this point he hasn't turned five. That's right. He's like, when I'm five. Anyway, as you know, he turned five and he still, he still hasn't given up. But you know, I just said to him, as long as you, as long as you need it, you can have it. That's fine.

Um, so yeah, sometimes now when he a when he asks for it and I say Yes, he says, as long as I need it 

[00:55:26] Emma Pickett: like that. Oh, bless him. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I, I love that. I love the fact that you let him change his mind. I mean, that's just, yeah. This is, this is child-led in your head and, and he wanted a party. He thought that would help him.

He wanted a party. Exactly. He thought that would help him draw a line. And then he realized, you know, it was maybe kind of a useful process for him to realize that he wasn't quite ready yet. Um, and he got a fantastic cake. I mean, I think he's, this is, this is a bit of a serious achievement. I'm very impressed.

Gilligan. Yeah. Okay. So I can see lovely Gus looking at us after his, uh, building and playing and he's having a great old time of it. Yeah, good talking. Um, and he's obviously not feeling remotely deprived, sharing booby with two other people. He's obviously having a fantastic time. Yeah. Have you ever had anything like mastitis, any blocked ducts, any sort of physical breast problems?

[00:56:15] Golnessa: Yes. So blocked ducks. I started getting this recurrent block duct. I had like bounce, or three to six months, I just recurrent was getting this blocked up on the right side. And as a result, my supply went down on that side and never really recovered. But anyway, it eventually stopped and I didn't get it again until I, I then got it a few times again after Gus was born and once it, it developed into mastitis.

So I had the whole, you know, fever and shakes and shivers, which was horrible. And I, I, you know, luckily for me, within 48 hours it resolved itself. I didn't have to take out anything. But yeah, that was extremely unpleasant. 

[00:57:00] Emma Pickett: I mean, and that must be really tough if you've got, you've got three children depending on you and wanting to breastfeed and, and dealing with mastitis on top of everything else.

Really, really grim. 

[00:57:08] Golnessa: Yes. Although, I suppose, you know, how you hear about women getting their partners to help with their blocked ups. I mean, I know. I had always had at least one older child and, and more recently two older children who are more than happy. I mean, because, because they're so much older, I say, I can say to them, look, this one's mind, especially my oldest.

Don't worry mum. Oh, I'll block it for you. Oh, 

[00:57:37] Emma Pickett: fantastic. I think you'll a bit of a side business going, possibly going on there. There me, medical ethics aside. Um, fantastic. Okay. Brilliant, brilliant. And some people will think, gosh, you're tr try and feeding. I hope she looks after herself. You know, I hope you're taking all your supplements.

How are your calcium levels? Yeah. How is she eating? Um, you know, you, it sounds like your sleep is working out pretty well at the moment. I mean, do you find yourself incredibly hungry? Do you find yourself collapsing on the floor at seven o'clock in the evening? How are you sort of physically? 

[00:58:06] Golnessa: Um, no. I mean my sleep is obviously disturbed a bit by the co-sleeping, but you know, that's par of the course and.

I guess I just don't, especially now that the other two don't feed that much. You know, it's a little bit in the morning, a little bit at bedtime story time. I think mostly what I'm doing in terms of production is feeding, you know, this one, and, and yeah, I think what the extra supply I have to have for the others is pretty negligible.

It's, it's very, it's more the emotional support and, and knowing that that is not close to them is what they're getting from it. More than actual nutrition. And, you know, don't get me wrong, it is nice to be able to feed them more when they're sick and. There've been quite a few winter tummy bugs and things, and it's lovely to think that I'm helping them recolonize their guts in a, in a good way and give them a little bit of nutrition and hydration when they want nothing else.

But I think mostly what the older ones are getting is, is emotional. And in terms of my own, I mean, just feeding one, obviously you have to look after yourself and it is hard when you've got, it's, it's hard to look after yourself when you've got three children, whether you're breastfeeding or not, you know, until recently, three, three under five.

That's, that's a lot. 

[00:59:26] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And I, I'm, I guess I'm, I'm gonna guess my next statement is something you'd agree with. What you're doing is sort of what nature has, has trained your body to do through millions of years of evolution. I mean, the idea that triumph and feeding is wacky and abnormal. I mean, it feels like that in our society sometimes, because we don't see lots of examples of it.

But it's in the, in the same way that you've just naturally carried on. That's sort of what your body was expecting you to do. Yeah, I mean, it's not, it's, you know, child led weaning is probably the default through human history. I mean, people were giving birth to multiple babies and, you know, having, having literally having multiples and, and it should be something that your body is able to cope with if you've got a support network and other people to look after you, which it sounds as though you do have, what's your situation with work?

Have you gone back to work in between pregnancies? Where are you with work? So I went back to work at 

[01:00:21] Golnessa: nine months with both of my older two, and I'm not going back. I've taken a full year with, with Gus, with, with, um, accrued annual leave tapped on the end. He'll be 13 and a half months when I go back to work.

Okay. Okay. So I'm doing some keeping in touch days and, and stuff like that. Kind of warming myself back into it now. Um, but yeah, he, he won't be, he'll be starting nursery in sort of August when my eldest starts school and then I'll go back to 

[01:00:53] Emma Pickett: work. So you were, you were back at work when you were pregnant with Gus and feeding both Gilligan and Gertie and dealing with that nipple sensitivity.

[01:01:03] Golnessa: Yeah. 

[01:01:04] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That's not an easy time. Not an easy time, no. No, that's true. 

[01:01:09] Golnessa: Yeah. I mean, I've never gone back full time since having children. Um, so I was doing three days. A week, but then, you know, the days that you're not at work, you are pregnant looking after two very small children. So it's a lot, however you slice 

[01:01:25] Emma Pickett: it, isn't it?

I mean, if you're a gp, that's a very long, intense day. As a pregnant woman, I mean, that's a, you know, that is a, you know, emotionally very, a very taxing day. So, yeah. So you are a bit of a hero. It's the spoiler, even though I was going on about how, hey, this is nature, this is evolution. This is what you're designed to do, which implies that this is nothing special.

You definitely still get your, your Donald Trump medal for maternity, except it doesn't have to be a Donald Trump medal. You know, what you are doing is still incredibly special and how very, very lucky all your little people are. And, um. How lucky we are to, to hear your story today. Thank you so, so much for joining us.

Is there anything that we haven't talked about that, um, that you'd like to talk about? I think we need to point out that everyone in your family has a name beginning with G. 

[01:02:09] Golnessa: Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. We haven't talked about that, but that's usually like the Kardashians people notice, people notice that straight away and my friends call us, you know, the G Unit or Team G or you know, when they write card Christmas cards to our family.

It's rare that they'll put all our names. It just me anyway. But yeah, that came about because obviously Glen and Nessa, that that just happened when we got together and then when I was pregnant we thought, oh, let's, you know, let's give our baby a genome as well and not, not really thinking forward to having three children.

[01:02:43] Emma Pickett: It's fabulous. It's only a problem with the bank statements can't come start coming through. Exactly. Because my husband is a, is a PhD. Scientist. So he has the doctor title as well. So there's, 

[01:02:53] Golnessa: there's doc two, doctor g ens, and a, and a whole house full of G ens. But anyway, 

[01:03:00] Emma Pickett: oh, there are worse problems to have.

So is there anything you'd like to say to somebody who is, you know, currently tandem feeding and thinking, oh, can I really manage three? I mean, what's your message to someone who's having thinking about that? 

[01:03:13] Golnessa: Yeah, I suppose I just went, like, when I was about to do it, I just thought does any, does any like, is, is anyone else doing this?

And I think one of my reasons for, well my main reason for reaching out to you was so that anyone who's in that position knows that there are other people doing it. And you know, like I said to you, the only people who know that I feed, particularly my eldest, are the people that I talk to about it because it's in the home and not that visible.

Um, and. My suspicion is that, you know, I, I, I probably am far from the only one doing it. Um, so if this gives someone who's a, is trian and tricycle feeding, or is about to embark upon that, the reassurance that they're, they're not alone, then, you know, that that's the main thing that I would want them to know.

If you want to do it and if your your children need it, that it, it absolutely is possible. 

[01:04:08] Emma Pickett: Yeah. You've definitely given that message today. Thank you so much for your time. Goodness. I really, really, really appreciated My pleasure.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes Milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.