
Makes Milk with Emma Pickett
Emma Pickett has been a Board Certified Lactation Consultant since 2011. As an author (of 4 books), trainer, volunteer and breastfeeding counsellor, she has supported thousands of families to reach their infant feeding goals.
Breastfeeding/ chest feeding may be natural, but it isn't always easy for everyone. Hearing about other parent's experiences and getting information from lactation-obsessed experts can help.
Makes Milk with Emma Pickett
Cara and Jodie's stories - breastfeeding with a Pavlik harness
If you have a baby, or are supporting parents of a baby, who has a Pavlik Harness, the chances are that you haven’t found much information about how to combine a Pavlik Harness with breastfeeding. I’m hoping this episode helps.
I’m speaking to Cara from Midlothian, and Jodie from Essex, both twin mums who have breastfed babies through their treatment for hip dysplasia. They share their personal journeys: describing initial diagnoses, the harness fitting process, and their adaptations to continue breastfeeding. While Jodie tandem fed her twins in an adapted rugby hold, Cara preferred to feed one twin at a time, changing her positioning to accommodate her daughter Halle’s harness. Despite initial fears and challenges, both mums found that breastfeeding could continue, and that their girls thrived throughout the weeks of treatment.
We referenced the following resources -
Breastfeeding Twins and Triplets https://breastfeedingtwinsandtriplets.co.uk/
South Essex Lactation Support https://www.southessexlactationsupport.co.uk/
Breastfeeding a baby with hip dysplasia | Australian Breastfeeding Association https://www.breastfeeding.asn.au/resources/breastfeeding-baby-hip-dysplasia
My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here - The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.
You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.
Follow me on Instagram @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com
This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.
This transcript is AI generated.
[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.
Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode.
There are three of us today. I have Cara from Midlothian in Scotland, and I have Jodie from Essex. And as you'll have seen from the title of the episode, we're gonna be talking about breastfeeding while using a Pavlik harness. And some of you will be looking at that and going, what the hell is that? And some of you'll be going, oh gosh, this is gonna be really useful.
I really need to hear this episode. And I'm wondering if maybe one or two of you are thinking, I've Googled, I found this podcast, dunno who the hell this woman is. But this is my life. I've just been told my baby has to use this harness. Maybe I'll get something from this conversation, and that's what I'm very much hoping we will help you with today.
I want you to end this conversation feeling more confident and feeling more hopeful about your breastfeeding in this situation. So before we get into the detail of your individual stories, Cara and Jodie, you are both mom twin moms. Yeah, and that might seem a slightly weird coincidence, but actually multiples are slightly more likely to need to use a Plic harness.
So it's not unusual. That would be somebody who is a twin who is experiencing this. And I think it's also really helpful because you'll have had the baby not in the harness and the baby in the harness, and you're So by having those two experiences. You'll have a wide range of, of a story to tell us. And also you've got to navigate tandem feeding with a harness, which is an extra level of complications.
So thank you very much, both of you for joining me today. Tell me about your little people, Jodie.
[00:02:14] Jodie: So I have got three children. I've got an older one, um, who's Daisy, she'll be four in July. She was, um, breastfed all straightforward. Um, then I've got twin boy and girl. I've got Oscar and Rosie, and they are going to be two in
June.
[00:02:33] Emma Pickett: Cool. And what's super handy is that Cara has a gorgeous Scottish accent, so we're gonna be able to distinguish the different voices on the call. Um, if you could fake a Spanish accent or something, Tony, that would be helpful too. Um, Cara, tell us about your little people.
[00:02:48] Cara: So I've got twin girls, Halle, and Riley.
Um, they were five months last week. To us, they feel huge, but probably to people who haven't met them before. They're still quite small because they were both born six weeks early and we've done a combination. We're still breastfeeding, but currently doing breastfeeding expression and formula. And the girls kind of are both quite different.
So we've had a bit of all sorts of experiences going on. Yeah.
[00:03:17] Emma Pickett: Yeah. You the triple whammy, which is something which is so tough going, I mean, to be triple feeding at five months. That is intense. Um, yeah, so you have our full sympathies and we could do a whole other conversation on that.
[00:03:31] Jodie: Because I was in the same situation.
Early jaw twins came out of hospital completely formula. Um, but I was adamant they were gonna be breasted. So very, very similar to Cara. It feels like the toughest journey in the world, but you, you get there, you know, I'm that bit further on than car, so yeah, you can do it.
[00:03:51] Cara: We kind of, we, we triple fed, I think it was Riley Fed Triple Fed for six weeks and Halle Triple Fed for five weeks.
And then we got off the triple feeding and they both exclusively fed and then they both went through a really fussy period just as Halle was getting the harness fitted and kind of were really distracted at the breast, really distressed. We're latching on, latching off and they wouldn't tandem feed. So the whole time I was trying to calm one baby down and focus on their feed, the other baby was just getting more wound up.
So we ended up. Introducing more bottles, which meant I was then expressing more. And then just as time went on, Riley particularly seemed to develop a bottle preference, and that's kind of where she's landed. So I try express for her. And Halle is the one that kind of mixes between nursing and bottle feeding.
So we're just trying everything.
[00:04:46] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Experimenting and seeing, yeah. Yeah. Okay, so let's, let's talk about Pavlik harnesses. Now, I'm not expecting you guys to be experts on the history of this device, but I'm guessing there was a Mr. Pavlik who decided that this was a good idea. I. Can one of you tell me, when do babies need to use plic harnesses?
Now it may be different depending on what the actual severity of the condition is, but let's start with you, Jodie. If someone was literally standing next to you in the coffee shop and they said, oh, what's that? What's your baby wearing? How would you answer that question?
[00:05:20] Jodie: A Plic harness keeps the child's hips, um, because.
If they get put in a public harness, their hip socket is underdeveloped. It's not matured enough. So it could be something they believe Rosie's was because she was the squashed one in the womb, so she didn't quite have that maneuverability to develop the hips or the hip socket just hasn't fused over the ball enough.
So they try, they put the Pav harness on. Which is your straps to keep the legs up so that the socket, no, sorry. The ball is right in the socket pushing against it to make the socket go. Oh, I meant to be developing over the ball. Okay. That's what I got told in the hospital.
[00:06:05] Emma Pickett: Well, you described it very well.
That sounds, that sounds good to me. I mean, I'm, I'm not a doctor, but for my reading, that's pretty much what we're looking for. So developmental dysplasia of the hip. Yeah. There's something going on with the ball and socket joint. Maybe the socket's not deep enough. Maybe the bull's not quite in the right position.
Um, what were you told Cara?
[00:06:25] Cara: Pretty much similar. We were told specifically for Halle that there was a possibility that her hip had dislocated in the womb and then relocated, but hadn't formed properly. And Riley in every scan, Riley was really outstretched and the woman quite long and taken up a lot of space.
And Halle was breach. From as early on as they could identify that in scan. So they said it was a combination of the position she was in the womb, which has caused the hip to develop a bit abnormal. So
[00:06:56] Emma Pickett: being breached, being a bit squished, which is obviously more likely with multiples. I. Maybe sometimes low fluid in the, in the uterus might cause it as well.
And sometimes that word congenital, I mean, it could be something that's not necessarily about conditions, but something else has happened in, in terms of the development. So the harness then, if I was to ask you to describe Cara, what a baby looks like, who's wearing a harness, can you describe what their legs actually look like?
[00:07:22] Cara: Yeah, so when Halle was in the harness, we used to call her a our mountain climber because she looked like she had this gear on to go climb in. So it starts at the shoulders and they got two straps across their shoulders, which attached to a big band across their chest, and then it drops down to their hips.
And when she first got fitted, her hips were in a frog like position. So they were really high up that her thighs were kind of touching onto her hips or the. Almost not near her ribs, but her, her legs were up like a frog, and it, when she first had it fitted, it was really tight so she could wiggle her toes a little bit, but that was probably the extent of it.
And then every two weeks she was reassessed and the harness was adjusted and loosened, or she got a bigger size. And at that point, her legs got dropped a little bit so she could start to kick her leg outwards a bit more. But they were never fully straight downwards. They were always very wide and up high.
[00:08:23] Emma Pickett: Okay. So sort of splayed out? Yeah. As if she was like almost climbing a wall, being a mounting climber. So, yeah, so, so the hips are, I think they call it. Abduction, which is a bit of a funny word. Sort of like splayed out to the side. Yeah. And then up as well. So looks like the knees are bent. Is that how you would describe it?
Yeah. So, so it's not like their knees are ever coming together. They're not ev, their knees aren't meet, aren't gonna meet for quite a while. They are absolutely out to the side. And in that position, presumably that's pushing the hip joint into position and into a deeper position. And then, yeah, we're waiting for bones to develop.
We're waiting. So that's not gonna be quick, that's not gonna be a quick process. How long, um, did Rosie wear her harness for Jodi?
[00:09:05] Jodie: So, Rosie was in the harness for six weeks. We were very fortunate by the time we went back for our review at two weeks, she'd made a lot of progress. So, as Cara said, they loosened it.
Then by the time we went back at four weeks, they said that she was totally fine. It was all, it all developed enough, but they have to keep it on for a minimum of six weeks just because, you know, you could say, oh yeah, everything's brilliant, but actually if you take it off, they don't want it to go back.
So at least if it's on six weeks. Yeah, well we were told it could be on for anything up to three months. Yeah. If not longer. Um, so we feel very fortunate that Rosie did just have it for six weeks.
[00:09:47] Emma Pickett: Okay. And what about Halle Cora?
[00:09:49] Cara: Um, Halle just got her harness off a week past Thursday, and she had it on for 10 weeks.
[00:09:55] Emma Pickett: Okay. Gosh, that's a long time. That's a yeah. A long time to be living with a harness. So. Let's go back to those very early conversations when someone first told you that the harness was gonna be necessary. So I'm guessing karara if, if the girls were quite early, you already had quite a lot of stresses and and things to worry about.
Do you remember that first conversation when someone mentioned something to do with hips?
[00:10:20] Cara: Yeah, so the gills were in the special care baby unit for 16 days and just before they were discharged, we were told that they would both need to have their hip scans. I can't remember if it was because they were twins or particularly because Halle, so when she was born, she was continually looking, left a lot and trying to lie on her right hand side.
So they said that those two factors combined with her being breached was a risk indicator for hip dysplasia. But because they couldn't be certain that the baby and the scans, the breach baby was definitely Halley, they would scan both babies, uh, as a protocol. So we were told that. Just as they were leaving special care, so they were about 16 days old, but they never got their first appointment until they were about seven weeks old.
They went to the hospital closest to us at home and both had an ultrasound of their hip and a physical examination, and straight away Riley was discharged. They said there was no concerns and the physio had said that Hall's right hip was fine, but her left hip was quite stiff. So they sent us home with some exercises and we were to return a month later to reassess the hip.
And then when we went back a month later, they said that they weren't happy with how the hip looked on the ultrasound, and it was quite loose in the socket. And that was the first time that we knew she was definitely getting fitted with the harness. I, I think prior to that, I can't really remember somebody.
Had mentioned that harnesses exist, but because we didn't really know what Hallie's situation was, it was kind of just a fleeting comment and we didn't really think much more of it.
[00:12:01] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So you'd actually been breastfeeding for quite a while by the time Halle got her harness on.
[00:12:08] Cara: Yeah, she was quite old when she had the harness.
Sorry, um, had the harness fitted, so she was 11 and a half weeks old. We met another couple twin moms in the waiting rooms, or sorry, single moms in the waiting rooms whose baby had harnesses, and they were all fitted around the six week mark, maybe eight weeks. So Halle was a lot older than any of the babies that we met in the hospital who had first got fitted.
[00:12:33] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, I guess in a way advantages in the sense that you'd developed your milk supply, you'd got more confident with breastfeeding. You know, Howe's obviously still, you know, a keen breast feeder right now. And, and so positives to that, but I guess in a way also negatives because you, you got used to certain positions and you'd got used to breastfeeding looking a certain way, and now you were gonna have to rethink how you were possibly going to hold Halle.
I'm guessing that's there, that's not easy. How do you remember how you felt when you were told she was gonna have to wear the harness? Um,
[00:13:00] Cara: I remember we were like upset on her behalf just because we felt like we worried it would hinder her development physically if she was stuck in this position. And then I remember being worried about feeding because even though she breastfed for so long, because the gits were six weeks early, they go by a corrected age.
So when she was 11 and a half weeks having it fitted, she was in a really particularly fussy phase with feeding. And at that point. We were had infant feeding involved or they were involved really close to the harness being fitted. And it was actually out with the harness. It was just Halle and Riley.
Both of them were having a difficult feeding phase and I remember speaking to the physio and I had said, will I be able to breastfeed in a harness? And she said, it is possible, but your baby might be fussy the first couple days. So if you already struggle to breastfeed, you might find it even harder. And I remember as soon as she said that, then I was kind of panicked and a bit worried because I knew that Halle was already struggling to breastfeed at that moment.
[00:14:03] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that's, that's a scary conversation. And did anyone give you specialist information about breastfeeding in the harness? Were you signposted anywhere?
[00:14:12] Cara: Not signposted, just kind of given a few positions that might be easiest to try. I think I had made a post, or I had searched for a post on the Facebook group, breastfeeding twins and triplets, and they had posted some positions on the page and infant feeding gave us positions.
So a lot of the help was just different positions to try and then a bit of trial and error.
[00:14:35] Emma Pickett: Okay. Right. In a minute, we're gonna do a deep dive into the position, so, so hold that thought. Let me just come back to you. Jodie. Tell us about when you heard about Rosie's diagnosis and, and the circumstances around that.
[00:14:46] Jodie: So. When the twins were born, Oscar was actually taken to NICU 'cause they believed he had infection. Rosie was fine. She stayed with me on the ward. Oscar was taken down. When Oscar was discharged, it was almost like a passing comment. The doctor said, oh, and um, you'll receive the letter about the twins hip scan.
And I was a bit like, whoa, hang on a minute. What? What do you mean this is the first. I've heard of it Anyway, he said, you'll get a letter because they're twins. They always scan twins, hips just to make sure that everything's fine. So had Oscar not been in nicu, would we have been informed about the HIP scan?
I don't know. The letter came through. And we took them, I can't remember exactly, I think similar to Kara. I took them scanned. Oscar was discharged. Rosie was classed as immature hips. I think it was about six weeks old. And then they said, try these exercises. Leave it because she wasn't, she was only slightly immature with her development.
We were sent away. Leave her try and um, do what? What you can just carry on as normal. Then at 12 weeks we went back and she still wasn't fully developed and then that's when she was put in the harness and I was told, I remember I went by myself because again, you know, we weren't told this information. I wasn't told anything about harnesses.
I wasn't told anything. And I went to the hospital by myself with the twins and I was told that Rosie was gonna be put in this harness and my world fell apart. Very similar to Kara. We'd been really struggling with breastfeeding. We had to have, um, somebody, we've got, um, a business nurse called the Milk Hub.
Someone had come and helped me try and get the twins to latch. We discovered that they had really bad tongue ties and lip ties as well, so they were really struggling to latch and we were in that triple feeding stage and with all of the support at 12 weeks, we'd had their tongue ties cut. We were just starting to get everything into place.
Everything was just starting to settle down. And then I was told she Razor was being put in this harness. And I just remember sitting in the physio's room, subbing, absolutely. I could feel myself going now. And it was like almost two years ago. Um, just, I sort of felt like I'd got so far and then I was like, well, I can't breast anymore.
Rosie's gonna be in this harness because you think harness and straight away your, your mind goes to this big metal object that they can't move in. And the physios, oh my gosh, they were amazing. Rosie's crying, Oscar's crying, I'm crying. We're all, all sobbing in this waiting room. But the physios, they were amazing and they just really took the time to go through.
What the harness was like. They gave me a leaflet and just gave me the time to sit and read through what a harness is, what it does. There was no rush on any, any part. And then we'll see. She was fitted in this pelvic harness again, got no clothes for her to wear because she's gone in leggings and a top, and you've got this harness on that's got straps from the hips to the feet diagonally.
She can't wear anything now. So it was like they had a sort of a resource bank of clothes that people had adapted to be able to go over the pelvic harness. 'cause by this point it's sort of October, November time, so it's not exactly the warmest outside. She couldn't just go out in our npy. So we were given outfits and they, again, they sent me or showed me links of places you could go and buy.
Clothing that goes over the harness.
[00:18:59] Emma Pickett: So can I just pause you for a second there? Yeah. Just to ask some dumb questions. So, so the harness doesn't have any metal in it?
[00:19:05] Jodie: Nope.
[00:19:06] Emma Pickett: And it's just all Velcro and, and like straps, like, kind of like belt kind of belts type straps that you can adjust presumably
[00:19:14] Jodie: Velcro, Velcro straps.
Um, so you are not allowed to take it off at all. So it's all wet wipe.
[00:19:21] Emma Pickett: So you were 20, you were 24 hours a day. 'cause I know that, that some people are 23 hours a day. Yeah. But actually putting it back on and off again, my brain would struggle with that. Um, yeah. Were you, were you also 24 hours a day Cara?
[00:19:33] Cara: Yeah. 24 hours a day. And she went to the physio at the hospital every two weeks and they removed the harness completely. She got a bath at the hospital. And then they gave her a new harness to go home and we returned every two weeks for 10 weeks.
[00:19:47] Emma Pickett: Okay. So, so you've got the legs up at the side. Yeah. So, and you say like, there's obviously a, there's a diagonal strap that, that holds them in that position.
[00:19:56] Jodie: So they're kind of on their feet. They've got like little socks, which have then got like the Velcro hook. So that's what keeps their legs up. It's like the little socks that attach to the strap that goes around their chest. Okay. And that's what keeps their legs. Up. Okay. So yeah, you've got this diagonal strap that basically goes from their hip to their foot, so you can't get anything
[00:20:20] Emma Pickett: over it.
So your leggings, your trousers, your regular baby grows, your
[00:20:24] Jodie: vest, anything doesn't, doesn't fit.
[00:20:27] Emma Pickett: So what does clothing look like then when over the harness? Like big kind of stresses? I mean, I'm trying to imagine what you're physically putting on. Yeah.
[00:20:35] Cara: Halle wore, she wore a lot of dresses. Uh, we were really lucky that the hospital also had a clothing bank.
So they gifted her specialized hip dysplasia clothing, which just basically has wide legs. So she had a lot of sleep suits with wide legs. We had hip dysplasia leggings, we had dres, and uh, we bought some stuff ourself. So you can buy hip dysplasia stuff from John Lewis as the next and m and s, but it's quite expensive to buy it, and they're not in it very long because they grow and the harness is short-lived.
So. It can be quite an expense getting out a harness, baby.
[00:21:15] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I can. I can imagine. And so I'm just trying to think before we even talk about the breastfeeding. I mean bathing, I mean keeping them clean. Babies, poo poo goes everywhere. I mean, it goes up the back and the whole nine yards. I mean, and if you're not getting a bath for two weeks, that's tough going that's, that's hard.
I mean, presumably it gets really dirty and you just have to do your best to sort wipe it. Yeah.
[00:21:37] Cara: Yeah. We really struggled as well because. Had struggled with trapped wind before the brace, and then the brace made it worse, and then she developed reflux whilst being in the brace and she was on medication.
Iron and a multivitamin from special care, but they were both bright orange, so anytime I'd give her it, she'd often dribble bits of medication out or spit it. And the harness is mostly white, so the chest straps usually ended up pretty orangey.
[00:22:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Gosh. I can imagine. And then, but also not being able to give her a bath, that's kind of, that's tough, isn't it?
Mm-hmm. Because bathing a baby is the kind of activity that you do together, and you kind of connect with them while that's happening. I mean, that can't have felt easy, Jodie.
[00:22:20] Jodie: No, we, we were very fortunate in the hospital again when Rosie was fit first fitted with the harness. They showed me all the hotspots, all the places that she would get sores, so the back of the knees in the groin area and under the chest and strap, just because it was on all the time.
So they showed me how to clean it, and I'm sure Cara was exactly the same. When you're told about this harness, you sort of think, oh, no movement. But actually they have got movement. Like Rosie could bring her legs. Together straight away. It sort of sounds like Halle was in a bit more of a restrictive harness to start off with, but Rosie could bring her legs together her, so she did have slight movement.
But yeah, I sort of felt like a fraud when I was giving Oscar a bath and Rosie couldn't have a bath because that was like her favorite. Time of the day, like being able to splash, splash about, but you just, you couldn't take the harness off. And then they, Rosie started to get some sores like, 'cause it Velcro, so it's easily adjustable.
Um, it was all exposed. So my s when we first came home, um, just sort of wrapped a bit of cotton material round the straps to stop the rubbing. And then my mum very kindly made harness covers at. On and off just to stop the rubbing because it was just bright red. But then I did learn that you could also buy these from online stores.
But again, like KA Kara said, you know, it's all just so expensive. I'm very fortunate I've got a sewing family. But if you didn't, the cost of it is just astronomical.
[00:24:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. And can you put them in a car seat? Cara? What happens with car seats?
[00:24:13] Cara: We were told that Halle could go in a car seat and we could just physically bring her legs together because the harness does move.
But we just chose to limit how often she was actually in the car seat. So I think the whole time she was in the harness, she was maybe in the car seat once or twice.
[00:24:32] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, I can imagine that doesn't feel very instinctive if you're being told to keep those legs apart in that kind of abduction. To push it back together again.
To go in a car seat. Yeah. Really must kind of give you the ick really, when you're told that's not what you should be doing. That's not easy.
[00:24:46] Cara: We found even, um, when she was in the bassinet of the pram, the bigger she got, the wider her legs got, and then her knees started to hit the edge of the bassine it, and we were like, we couldn't buy a new pram, but.
We, it was a bit we, we weren't sure how to position her because she looked okay, but she just looked quite squished and the buggy was her main form of transport since we weren't really using the car seat. So we ended up switching them. Out of the KA cots and into the seats of the buggy much earlier, and the seats really reclined and it meant that Halle could have her legs wide without being squished.
[00:25:23] Emma Pickett: Okay, thank you for that tip. I want to tell you about my brand new book called The Story of Jesse's Milk Keys. It's a picture book for two to six year olds, and I wanted to write a book that was about weaning, but also not about weaning, because breastfeeding journeys end in all sorts of different ways.
So Jesse's story is presented as having three possible endings. In one ending, his mom is pregnant and Jesse's going to share his milk with a new baby. In the second, his mom is getting really tired and it's time for some mother led weaning. And in the third, we see a self weaning journey as Jesse's attachment to breastfeeding gradually fades.
There are beautiful illustrations by the very talented Jojo Ford, and the feedback from parents so far has been so lovely and touching and I'm really excited to share the book with you. If you're interested in my other books for Older Children, I have the Breast book, which is a guide for nine to 14 year olds.
And it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And I also have two books about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding for a 10% discount on the last two. Go to Jessica Kingsley Press, that's uk.jkp.com and use the code MMPE 10 Makes milk picket Emma.
10. Let's talk about breastfeeding. So. There are some positions that presumably are tricky when you are dealing with that leg position. I'm just imagining when you think of a twin breastfeeding situation, you obviously, there are loads of different positions, but that classic big cushion, both babies on their side doing the rugby hold, if the baby's in the harness, presumably they haven't got space for that bottom leg in that position, so you're gonna have to rethink.
Presumably sideline becomes difficult because there isn't space for that bottom leg. What sort of positions were you using before you had the harness, Jodie, and what did you go on to use after the harness?
[00:27:25] Jodie: So, initially, 'cause we'd been struggling with the breastfeeding, we had started feeding the twins separately.
But then we managed to, again, not long before Rose was put in the harness to get them cross cradle, both feeding sort of one-on-one breast. The other one sort of laying on the belly, um, of the. Other twin and feeding, feeding that way. But then when Rosie came home in the harness, we tried sort of again, I was like, my breastfeeding days are done.
I dunno how to do this. 'cause you just, you see this harness and you think you're gonna hurt, hurt them. But the longer Rosie was in it, the more I realized that it was maneuverable and actually. There is a bit of wiggle room. So I then tandem fed on my peanut and piglet pillow across me, and they were both rugby hold, but Rosie wasn't tucked into me.
She was sort of, her bum was off the pillow a bit on other pillows, so she was kind of more at a, she wasn't tucked right under my arm. She was at more of a angle.
[00:28:39] Emma Pickett: Okay. So she's slightly diagonal. Yeah. To give that lower leg space. Yeah. So she's, so if we looked at Oscar, he'd have been sort of more flat on the pillow.
Correct, but, but Rosie was more kind of coming up with her head higher than her bottom part. Yeah. Okay. And that worked, tandem feeding worked, and she was comfortable and you felt comfortable, but presumably you're having to use your hand then to hold her up a bit more? Or did you get those extra cushions to hold her?
I just
[00:29:04] Jodie: managed to get cushions and propped once I kind of got. A good feeding position. I kind of just left everything on the sofa where it was, and I was like, nobody touched the sofa. I was like, that's the perfect, um, perfect position. And I never early doors, I swapped breasts for the twins. But then Rosie wasn't gaining as much weight, and I realized because Oscar was a more efficient feeder, he was getting all the milk and then Rosie was like, oh, where's mine?
So I stopped that. They had their own breasts, and that meant I could leave sort of the pillows where they were. So she was always the same side.
[00:29:42] Emma Pickett: Okay. Tell us about your positioning, Cara. What were you doing before the harness and what were you doing after?
[00:29:48] Cara: We wouldn't tandem feed in. We had probably done it two or three times, and it was just.
Too stressful. So we was just, I was just feeding them one at a time. Halle was mostly feeding either in rugby hold or kinda cradled just across my legs. And we had just started to feed her lying down in the bed sideline. And I think I had only ever managed to do it once or twice because when I tried previously I couldn't get latch.
And I remember I finally got it and I was so excited. Because I was so exhausted with a sleep deprivation that I was like, this is the comfiest position of breastfed in. And, uh, we had to lose that position after she got her harness on. So I mo I just actually kept the other two positions. So she fed in rugby a lot of the time, or she was in cradle across my legs.
But because her bottom leg needed space, I would sit on the edge of a sofa, the edge of a bed. And open my legs a bit and drop her leg between my legs so that she was lower down.
[00:30:53] Emma Pickett: Okay. And when you're in the rugby then, were you doing something similar to Jodie that you had her sort of upper half, slightly higher, to give space for that lower leg?
[00:31:01] Cara: She just seemed to have space. I don't remember particular, she was quite a small baby, but I don't remember particularly having ex, I didn't have extra pillows and I didn't hold her. Okay. Yeah, she just seemed to fit in rugby.
[00:31:15] Emma Pickett: Maybe her leg was kind of tucking in between the cushion and your body a little bit.
Maybe. I'm just trying to picture Yeah,
[00:31:20] Cara: possibly. I don't, I don't remember doing anything special. I just remember she just seemed to conveniently fit into rugby.
[00:31:27] Emma Pickett: Okay. Good. Well, that's, that's hopeful. The idea that you have to say goodbye to that is, is, uh, you know, the fact that you didn't is great. And then if you are feeding.
In a sort of laid back position, I'm guessing that's a bit easier. So laid back feeding even that's not necessarily something that the two of you chose. I'm imagining that if you do lean back, the baby can be sort of flat on top of you. You've absolutely got space for their legs to be splayed out across your body.
And possibly if you're, if you are tandem feeding both babies can be in that kind of koala position. Yeah. In that laid back position,
[00:31:59] Jodie: I did try that. 'cause I, um, when we found out about the harness, um, I contacted a local, um, breastfeeding support group. They're called South Essex Lactation Support. Um, they've just been rebranded.
Um, but they were amazing and they suggested, so what your. Describing there. Emma is, um, koala hold, and I did try that with Rosie. So her, her bum was on my leg and her, um, harness sort of sat over my leg and feeding, but we just didn't, 'cause it wasn't anything we tried before the harness Rosie would just fresh about and just didn't, didn't get on with it.
But we, we did, we did try that, but it just wasn't, wasn't successful.
[00:32:43] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean the, the Southwest lactation support used to be baled and. And Thic bras. I think that's, that's, yeah, so we'll put that link in the show notes for anyone who happens to be in your part of the world so that, so the koala hold it.
You can be more upright and have a baby sort of straddled across your legs, or if you lean back even more, sometimes that extra anchoring relaxes a baby a little bit more in there. They're happier to be in that reclined position. So at night, Cara, presumably, if you saying goodbye to that sideline position, does that mean you're gonna have to sit up and get up and find a chair?
What were nights like?
[00:33:18] Cara: Yeah. So nights I did manage to transition away from sitting on the very edge of the sofa of the bed. But at night I either rugby fed her in rugby in the, in our bed or managed to cradle her, and I was sitting cross-legged and I dropped her leg between my cross-legged and it, it never actually felt, it felt like a bigger deal than it actually was.
Like I remember really worrying about it and worrying about positions, and she just seemed to slot in quite easily.
[00:33:48] Emma Pickett: Good. Oh, that's, that's the message. Let's, let's give that message to people. So the id, but it's interesting isn't it, that the physio said to you, oh, breastfeeding, oh, it's, I'm not, you know, if you're already having problems, it's gonna be even harder.
Yeah. And actually you've just described her, you slotting in and using your normal rugby hold and
[00:34:05] Cara: Yeah, and we didn't have any extra pillows. There was no, the only difference was that I made a space between my legs for her bottom leg, and that was really the extent of it.
[00:34:15] Emma Pickett: Okay, so we need to go back and find this physio and, and politely tell them what the reality was for you and, and how it obviously did seem to work.
And even though you were having breastfeeding challenges before that and she's, you know, you, things weren't straightforward. It wasn't the harness that gave you extra challenges. No. That the struggles that
[00:34:34] Cara: we were having, I think possibly Holly was in a developmental leap or because she would've been around six weeks of age corrected when she was having the fussy time.
But it was nothing to do with the harness, particularly. It was just her and her development.
[00:34:50] Emma Pickett: And you said that the harness was taken off just last week? Yeah. How was it when it got taken off? Tell me about that day.
[00:34:56] Cara: Eh, we were so relieved to have it off. She was much longer than we realized she was because her feet
[00:35:02] Emma Pickett: dropped down.
You are like, what? Yeah,
[00:35:05] Cara: and I had seen her in a bath every two weeks, but I just hadn't really processed how long her legs were. So I took sleep suits in the size that she'd been wearing in the harness, and they were too small for her, so she was much longer. And then when I brought her home. I then struggled to transition to feed him outta the harness because she was now wiggly.
She could move. She wasn't kind of this rigid, and I dunno if that's why she was easier to feed in those positions because she was quite rigid that when you put her in a position, she just stayed there. She was quite solid, whereas when she came out the harness, to me, she felt huge and she felt she was more floppy.
Her head control wasn't as good, and then I felt like I had to relearn how to breastfeed her, even though I had her sister, Halle was a bit heavier than Riley and a bit bigger, and I just hadn't been used to feeding Halle in that way. So it felt like I had to relearn how to feed Halle.
[00:36:01] Emma Pickett: Okay. That's really helpful to share that.
Thank you Carl. 'cause I think lots of people would imagine harness coming off. You're done. Easy peasy. But actually. As you say, Wrigley, little 3, 4, 5 month olds when they can really move, can absolutely cause complications. And actually one of the benefits of the harness in a way is that you've, you stop them doing all that wriggling and you are very much able to control, you know, where their legs are going.
And now she's presumably going woo-hoo legs and kicking and yeah, doing all, all sorts, which is not super easy.
[00:36:31] Cara: And she felt too long for the rugby that we had got so used to. She now was much. Longer so she wasn't this, she'd gained so much length that rugby just felt a bit awkward in her old position.
So everything just felt a bit strange when she came out the.
[00:36:48] Emma Pickett: Actually, yeah, that's a good point. One of the benefits of the harness is that you shorten that leg distance. Yeah. Which means you've got space behind you on the sofa and you don't have to be, whereas with, with the full leg extension, yeah, you're gonna have to come right to the front of the sofa to have space for, otherwise she's gonna be kicking on the back of the sofa and or too far forward and curling around at the front, which is not what we want with rugby hole.
'cause that brings the chin to sort of tuck down to the chest. So you said of the two of them, Riley is the one that's having more challenges with breastfeeding at the moment? Yeah. So despite getting used to Halle being outta the harness, she's still feeding. Okay. What, what, what's the last couple of days been like?
[00:37:25] Cara: Yeah, she's actually increased her feeding the last couple days. I think she might also be teething, so I'm not sure if it's more of a comfort thing as well. So she breastfeeds overnight and it typically breastfeeds her first feed of the day, and then she had transitioned. To bottles throughout the day just because the girls had unintentionally synced up their feeds and we hadn't really got on with tandem breastfeeding, but I was able to tandem bottle feed them.
But then the last couple days, she's decided to start breastfeeding throughout the daytime. So I'm not sure what Holly journey looks like right now. Possibly increasing her feeding, which is nice because she was always a more keen breast feeder than Riley. Anyway, and she fed her comfort a lot more. She was always on the breast a lot more, and she kind of lost it all during the fussiness and then we introduced, but also it seems like she's going back to where she was before, or at least similar.
[00:38:19] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And presumably all her extra breastfeeding, helping your milk supply as well, which makes her Riley's milk, uh, output easier too. So actually if we're doing, if we're being scientists here, and you've got your two twins and the variable of the harness. Has not negatively impacted on Hall's breastfeeding.
She's the one who's, who's breastfeeding more and more enthusiastically. Yeah. And it, and the harness has not been the thing that's held you back at all with her breastfeeding?
[00:38:44] Cara: No. Yeah.
[00:38:45] Emma Pickett: Have you had any support with your, with your positioning and your breastfeeding, have you got any support now with Riley's feeding?
What's, what's available locally, do you know?
[00:38:52] Cara: I was told that we could get support from infant feedin. We have worked with an I-B-C-L-C through the breastfeeding twins and triplets, but that was really, really early days. Infant feeding can support us, but I was told they don't do home visits. It would be through phone support or I would need to go to a clinic, which feels sometimes a bit difficult, but phone support didn't really feel practical enough.
[00:39:16] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. So the breastfeeding twins and triplets, charity, do they have a charity fund, don't they? And, and there are, there are lactation consultants that will do home visits funded by the charity. If you, if you're in the member of that, of that group, breastfeeding twins and triplets uk. We'll make sure we put that in the, in the show notes as well.
Is that something you might be able to do again?
[00:39:36] Cara: Um, I'm not sure. Possibly we could re reach out. I'm not sure if it'd be through the charity or just self funded, but a lot of the advice we were given, I kind of know about positioning and how to get a good latch. But a lot of the tips we were given to kind of reestablish breastfeeding was to do lots of skin to skin and kind of have a bath together.
And somebody had recommended like, have a topless telly day, just so you relax at home, don't go anywhere. And the baby gets multiple chances to latch. But I always find it hard because. The dad was working during the day and the amount of support I had varied on different days. So I could be having a really nice skin to skin moment with Riley and I, I could make that my priority for the day, but because you then got two newborns, Halle would always need something or she would need change or she would need fed.
So it felt quite hard to do all these prolonged bonding moments singularly because there was two babies.
[00:40:35] Emma Pickett: Yeah, no, that, that definitely makes sense. Yeah. I can appreciate that. That's not straightforward. Let's come back to you, Jodie. Tell us about the harness coming off. Do you remember that being an adjustment and having to rethink breastfeeding in the same way Cara did?
[00:40:51] Jodie: Um, yes and no. I remember it coming off and Rosie just being the happiest little girl straight away kicking and you know, she was like freedom and we were all sort of, sort of the same. Got home, put straight in the bath, which she was loving. But then. I think because I'd turned and breastfed the whole time she was in the harness, it just kind of went back to normal, really, whatever normal is.
Um, we went back to using, well, we were still using the peanut and pig pillow. I ended up putting more pillows behind me. 'cause like Cara said, you know, don't realize how long they've, they've got in that time. So then she was like, oh, I can push off the back of the sofa. Yeah, she was just finding her legs pushing.
[00:41:38] Emma Pickett: So she went back to being flat in the, in the rugby hole. You didn't have to, yeah. You didn't have to have her top half elevated anymore. And, and no, and I guess that just, that was pretty straightforward.
[00:41:47] Jodie: Yeah, sort of. Her and Oscar were very symmetrical in what, in what they did. Um, she loved her milk, but by this point, because I know we'd said earlier, they were totally, totally breastfed.
There was no, we managed to get off the triple feeding. So yeah, and then back, back to nights, back to feeding. But even when Rosie was in the harness at night, I actually fed her cross cradle in the night 'cause her legs and her legs came together because she was such a quick, efficient feeder where Roka was slow, lazy, took his time.
Rosie was sort of five minutes, 10 minutes done and I could put her back in. So the physio said sort of five, 10 minutes for feed. You know, it isn't okay going to make a massive of difference or in the nights, uh, we've got a rocking chair in the nursery. So I sort of sat more to one side and I rested her bum on the arm of the rocking chair.
Um, so it wasn't all a bit hands and. Feet everywhere. And that kind of just worked for us. And then when she was out the harness, it was back to normal for us.
[00:42:58] Emma Pickett: So it's an example of how if we, if we put Rosie and Halle next to each other, I'm guessing Hallie's harness would've been tighter. Is that what we're seeing?
So it doesn't sound as though to Holly's legs could have gone together at all. So, so because there's a spectrum and you know, there's lots of babies with different levels of severity. It sounds as though Rosie, especially as, as you said, within two weeks, they were saying she'd made really good progress.
The doctors and physios felt happier about her legs coming together. Yeah. 'cause her condition wasn't so severe, but, but other babies would've perhaps had a firmer hold and legs Absolutely. Couldn't have gone together. So what's ongoing? Do they have to have any further scans with their hip development or do you get signed off completely?
What's, what's happening now? Um, for you, Cara next?
[00:43:39] Cara: Um, we were told to, when now she's back at home without the harness. The only tips we had for home was to not buy the Jumperoo or any, any form of baby equipment that would kinda make her jump before she was ready because it would put too much pressure on her hip.
And same with baby walkers with the wheels. So that's the only thing that we're doing at home, is just being mindful of equipment that we're using. But in terms of the hospital, they said when she's around 1-year-old, she'll go back and have a full x-ray of her hip and pelvis. To check it and if they're happy with it, I believe that's all that will happen.
And then that's all. That's it.
[00:44:21] Emma Pickett: Okay. And you're a bit further along, Jodie. What's happened with Rosie since then?
[00:44:24] Jodie: Yeah, so when Rosie had her harness taken off, we were told that she would be reviewed every six months, which she does get reviewed. We had one a few weeks ago. Every six months they check.
They're pleased with her development. They make her do certain exercises and just to check that everything's still okay. She has to have an x-ray every time we go, every six months. Again, just to check the hip socket placement. Yeah, so last time we went, they were really, really pleased with how she's doing and they believe she will be signed off.
At her two year check, but initially we are told that you would have six months check up until minimum age three, potentially age four. They said, you know, they've never seen any like lashback for anything, but it's better to have it, have it checked. So yeah, they're really hopeful that Rosie can actually be discharged at at two years.
[00:45:23] Emma Pickett: Okay. And, and her crawling and her walking has all been, as you'd expect, nothing unusual. Absolutely
[00:45:28] Jodie: fine. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. As it should be.
[00:45:32] Emma Pickett: Thanks guys. I really appreciate you sharing your stories. I'm just thinking of that, that parent who's listening to this, perhaps just having had a diagnosis, I.
I'm hoping they take away from your stories that for both of you, breastfeeding just carried on and actually the harness was not a complication to your breastfeeding, but is there anything you would want to say to this, this new mom who's just, just found this resource? If you were gonna give them a message about using the harness or, or something you'd want them to know, what would you want them to know, Jodie?
[00:46:01] Jodie: Just that it's not as scary as you first think. I think us as mothers, we are really hard on ourselves. Rosie took it in US dried, you know, she was like so young she didn't know what was going on. But as parents, you know, you think, you think your world's ending because it's your brand new little bundle of joy.
And I dunno if a Cara felt the same, you know, I, I felt so sorry for Rosie where Oscar could just carry on as normal and he could have all the freedom. But actually it's us as parents that put more pressure. On ourselves. And actually, I wish that something like this was around for you to find and go, actually, it's not so bad.
You can do it and you will do it. And your breastfeeding journey doesn't have to end. It's finding that support that is pivotal for you as a parent, not for your child, but for you to get your mind in the right head frame. I think that's that's the key.
[00:47:06] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, that's a good way of looking at it. And as you say, Rosie wasn't that fussed.
I mean, she'd just been squished in a womb for nine months and didn't have much space then. She certainly doesnt mind having her leg stuck out. Um, exactly. What would you say, Cara?
[00:47:19] Cara: Yeah, pretty similar. Just that the idea of the harness sounds really daunting, but in reality, once Ken, if we got used to it, and I don't think Halle really needed to get used to it apart from a couple days, she was fine.
Everything was okay. Like it wasn't as complicated as it seemed. And actually she was my easier baby to feed, even though she was in a harness and she didn't seem to detract from her happiness because she smiled pretty much constantly in the harness. The first time we ever heard her laugh, she was in the harness, so.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. I don't think it really made a huge difference. It changed the way that we fed, but it didn't stop our feeding.
[00:47:59] Emma Pickett: Did either of you do any baby wearing or any sling use?
[00:48:04] Cara: I did some slings. I didn't use any carriers while she was in the harness, but I had her in the sling a couple times
[00:48:10] Emma Pickett: and that was possible.
You could work out to have to do that? Yeah. The physio
[00:48:13] Cara: told us that she was fine to go in the sling as long as her legs were kept wide, which they were. And uh, she was fine. She quite liked to be in the sling.
[00:48:22] Emma Pickett: And did you find that the reaction of other people was a difficulty? I among, I think twin moms are probably quite used to getting public reactions anyway and getting people saying things when you're out and about.
But did you have any reactions to the slings? Did you find yourself having to kind of have awkward conversations? I.
[00:48:36] Jodie: No, I think people were intrigued. You know, um, actually the day Rosie was put in the harness, we went off to a baby group straight after, like it was all a bit of a whirlwind, but I thought, thought you can't dwell.
So we went straight to baby class and people, people were just intrigued. They, they said, you know what, what's Roy wearing? And then once I explained people, people are supportive. And again, I think they were surprised at how much she could do. Because it goes back to that harness. Oh, you can't do anything when you're in a harness, but actually you can.
Um, so we, we didn't get anything but, but support. There wasn't any negativity around it. I think I might have told them where to go if there was
[00:49:21] Emma Pickett: I, I sense you would. I sense you would. Jodie, you sound like somebody, a good Essex girl who would not take any nonsense.
[00:49:28] Jodie: I tell you since I've had children, my whole approach to everything has changed.
I haven't got time for that.
[00:49:34] Emma Pickett: Good. Well, that's what we need. We need, we need the advocates. We need the people that talk. No nonsense. Absolutely. You've both been fantastic. Thank you so much. So you've mentioned the Southwest lactation support, Jodie. Yeah. You've, Kara, you've mentioned the breastfeeding twins and triplets uk.
Are there any other resources that you found particularly helpful about plic harnesses? Any particular websites or, or do we, is it just leaflets you were given by your physios?
[00:49:58] Cara: Yeah, just leaflets and then kind of a bit of. The posts on the breastfeeding page. Yeah. And infant feeding kinda gave us the same posts about positions.
[00:50:09] Jodie: Yeah. Like, like Cara, um, I used the breastfeeding, um, twin Triptych UK for support. You know, they've got pages of guidance and support, which was, yeah, you spend hours trolling through it all. But actually I think it's trial and error. You know, I did look mm-hmm. At it all for support, but actually you find, you find your groove.
But it's nice to know that you are not alone as well when you do see other people. In this, in the same situation.
[00:50:39] Emma Pickett: Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that's the golden rule of breastfeeding generally. And I guess one thing I'm taking away from having spoken to both of you is that it's not the same for everybody, not least because the harness may be rigged up slightly differently, but when it comes to breastfeeding, we're all different shapes.
Different positions work for different people. So the idea of like, this is the position you should use in the harness, and it's the same for everybody and isn't necessarily super helpful because it really is about working out what works for you. As you say, Jodie, finding your groove. Yeah. You know, that little cushion that works for you, but it might not work for someone else.
'cause their height of their breast might be different. Um, you know, some children might be bothered by something when other children aren't. So it's about getting individual individualized support but also just working through it yourself and, and trial and error. But for what I'm definitely taking away from this conversation is that wearing a plic harness is not a barrier to breastfeeding.
Uh, it really, really isn't, and it can absolutely work. And I guess on, in a slightly odd way, I'd probably say, isn't it great we live in a world where we've got ultrasounds and x-rays and, and, you know, your girls were diagnosed and, you know, a hundred years ago it wouldn't have been discovered for, you know, the rest of their lives.
It'd been impacted by this. So. Putting on a harness with some Velcro for, for six to 12 weeks is a pain in the bum. But isn't it amazing that someone's worked that out and, and you can sort them out at the end of it, and that's the end of it. I mean, that's kind of fantastic on one level. Mm-hmm. Yep. I mean, it's a, it's a positive thing rather than necessarily a, a horrible, scary thing.
Um, but the mess would freak me out. Can I just say, I'd, I'd be buying the covers. I'd be getting my, my mom is not a sewer, but I would find someone's, I'd be changing the covers and I'd be, oh, that would be the bit, the, that would freak me out because
[00:52:20] Jodie: you, you don't realize quite how grubby they, they get you sort of think babies are quite clean 'cause they're not.
Crawling. They're not moving yet. Oh, no, no, no, no, no. But aside from the poo poo explosion, so yeah, I get grubby.
[00:52:35] Cara: Yeah. We kept, um, Hall's first ever harness because she was in an extra small, which was the smallest size ever made. And uh, the phy, it was pretty dirty. But the physio told us if we washed it in a pillowcase, it would come up and it came up beautiful.
We've got it in the room next door, so she said that we could fit it. Teddy bear. Keep it. So she did offer it to fit it for us. Fit it for us, and then we just kind of forgot to take it in. So we haven't trialed it yet, but we have the harness next door.
[00:53:05] Emma Pickett: Perfect. Oh, little box frame and she'll go, what the hell's that in about five years frame?
Yeah. Um, that's, that's very cute. Well, thank you so much both of you. I really, really appreciate your time and, uh, yeah, you've, you've been fantastic. And thank you for, for giving that message of hope. I really appreciate it.
[00:53:20] Cara: No worries. Yeah. Thank you for having us.
[00:53:27] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.
This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.