Shonagh's story - tandem feeding

 We often cover struggles and challenges on this podcast, but my guest this week, Shonagh Johnson, from East Lothian, is a great example of how well tandem breastfeeding can go. 

Although she had some nipple sensitivity, Shonagh found feeding her first daughter Freya relatively easy after a swift home birth. Despite having no expectations of how long they would feed for, she carried on throughout her pregnancy with her second daughter, Charlotte. During this pregnancy, Shonagh did experience aversion, particularly during her third trimester and occasionally post-birth, but she handled it with a mixture of relaxation techniques and communicating with Freya to establish boundaries around feeding. 

Towards the end of our conversation we also discuss the process of donating milk via the local milk bank, as Shonagh has just started to donate, having been inspired by Charlotte’s story in episode 67.

You can follow Shonagh on Instagram @‌shonaghmack

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. 

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I am going to be talking to Shonagh, who's from East Loath and in Scotland.

And as you'll have seen from the title of the episode, we're gonna be talking about tandem feeding and shana's experience of feeding her two daughters. And also a little bit of a chat about milk donation as well, because that's something Shonagh has just started to do. So tell us about your family, Shonagh.

I'm looking at your beautiful littlest daughter right now who is very impressively reading a book at the age of nearly nine months, um, quietly to herself. Um, so that's, I'm quite impressed that that's how she's starting the call. So if we hear little baby noises, that's, that's what's happening. So, so you've got Charlotte, who's very nearly nine months Yep.

And is just reading her book. Tell us about your other daughter. 

[00:01:30] Shonagh Johnson: So I also have Freya who is, uh, three years and I think around eight months. So yeah, she'll be four in August. 

[00:01:37] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:01:38] Shonagh Johnson: And yes, we also have, uh, my husband Hamish as well in the house, so he's very much outnumbered by girls now. So, but I think he's quite happy with that.

[00:01:47] Emma Pickett: Oh, I bet he is. I bet he is. So let's start talking about Freyer's breastfeeding experience. Before you had Charlotte, what was your life like pre babies? Did you have any family experience of breastfeeding? What was your kind of thinking about breastfeeding while you were pregnant? 

[00:02:03] Shonagh Johnson: Yeah, so, um, I. I, I knew that, uh, myself, and I've got two sisters.

We were all breastfed, uh, as babies. So that had always been kind of normalized from that perspective growing up and talked about. And fortunately, I'm, I'm the youngest of three, uh, three girls. So my eldest sister had actually had three of her own babies before, uh, before me. So, um, I was able to kind of see her experience.

So I think, obviously I won't tell her story, that's for her, for her to tell, but she had three very different journeys. So I think I, I went into pregnancy and, uh, thinking about breastfeeding with, you know, without the naivety of thinking that it was just gonna be straightforward, you know, I knew that there was gonna be nuances depending on your baby, depending on any challenges that might arise, you know, in, in, in each individual situation.

So I kind of had. That, but otherwise hadn't thought about it much. Uh, being completely honest, Freya was a love baby, so she wasn't, um, expected 

[00:03:00] Emma Pickett: as soon as, so love baby. Can I just translate Love baby? Does that mean we weren't quite expecting her? Is that what you 

[00:03:07] Shonagh Johnson: mean? Yes. We, we always wanted children, but uh, she came along, uh, a little bit earlier than I probably planned, which honestly I think was probably a good thing because I didn't overthink anything.

Um, you know, it was, we're having this baby, you know, we were obviously over the moon and we, um, when we started talking about sort of things, I think I was very, with that pregnancy, hyper-focused on the birth. I didn't actually put a lot of thought into what happens after birth, you know, which is actually, I don't say that's unusual, 

[00:03:33] Emma Pickett: you know, I think that's so common.

I think lots of people listening will, will recognize that. Mm-hmm. That comes from, you know, you can see that in antenatal education when sometimes when we do breastfeeding education. People almost can't absorb that message because there's this massive mountain of the birth in front of you. Yeah. And it's really hard to imagine what it's actually like when the baby's out and, and you're having, so lots of people will say that.

Mm-hmm. You even with all the best will in the world trying to read about breastfeeding antenatally, it's just, you've just got this mental block, haven't you, about the unpredictability of what might happen. Um, so did you have any antenatal education around breastfeeding? Yes. Uh, 

[00:04:07] Shonagh Johnson: we just did the sort of, uh, NHS antenatal classes, so we didn't do anything beyond that.

It was sort of end of 2020 that I fell pregnant, and she was born in the August, 2021. So we were still online with, uh, antenatal classes and things, which I think probably didn't allow us to get the sort of full experience, um, of, of what we probably normally would've had. So, um, I didn't actually find those to be, I.

Completely. Um, I know I didn't learn much from there that I'd, you know, I, I hadn't read online or, you know, looked at books and, and in my own research and things. So, um, but you know, we spoke mostly again in those classes from my memory about birth. Um, there wasn't a lot about, you know, the after part. And I know people who have the sort of done the MCT classes and, you know, the sort of, uh, the paid ones that you can do.

And I think they kind of dive in a lot more into afterwards, breastfeeding, that sort of thing. So that was just my experience. The particular, uh, classes that we did that it was mostly focused on birth and to be honest, focused a lot on intervention as well from, again, from my memory, um, this feels like a long time ago now, but, you know, just talking about all the different things that can happen during birth and you know, how, how that's managed and, you know, the, the very immediate afterbirth and a lot of it was about the care of mother and things rather than looking after baby and, and that sort of thing.

Okay. 

[00:05:29] Emma Pickett: That's interesting. And then how was Frey's birth? How were those very early days? 

[00:05:33] Shonagh Johnson: Freya was actually born at home. That was planned, which I have had a few questions before, before when I said, uh, you know, she was born at home, people say on purpose. Uh, yeah. So we had planned that. Um, and I think, you know, I was reflecting on this earlier, I think with Frey's pregnancy and birth.

I was extremely fortunate with the support that I had right from the start. So my sister, um, who I mentioned previously, she had a, a home birth for her second, uh, baby. And I think she'd expressed interest with her first. And, you know, she'd said to me, you know, I was told my first you shouldn't really have a home birth with your first baby 'cause you just don't know what's going to happen.

You're probably gonna have a really long labor. So, you know, we don't recommend it. So I'd gone into my 10 week appointment, you know, with this in mind of, wanted to express interest, but very ready to be shut down almost. So, um, when I did go into that appointment and I said, you know, I'm quite interested in the concept of a home birth.

And the midwife just said, cool, you know, wrote it down on her notes and, and that was that. And she said, you know, we can talk about that later. Just keep doing your research, looking into it. So I think that there was actually the first of many really positive experiences that I had throughout my pregnancy and, and early postpartum, uh, with, you know, support from both midwives, healthcare professionals, and people around me as well.

[00:06:53] Emma Pickett: Yay. Yeah. So this is such a happy story. I know it, so, it's so lovely to hear of that positive experience that you had and, and just someone talking about just immediately getting that support and feeling supported. I mean, I know, yeah. Scotland has a hundred percent baby friendly hospital, so I wonder whether there's just a different attitude to, to.

I don't know, birth support and breastfeeding support generally. I dunno, I'm not pretending that funding in Scotland isn't a problem as well, but it's, it's great to hear that you've got that, that team from the very, very beginning. So no one doubting you, no one implying it would be a problem. So all through your pregnancy, you've got that sense of being supported.

And do you remember at what point you made that decision to definitely go for a home birth? 

[00:07:35] Shonagh Johnson: I think it was probably, um, actually very soon after. I think almost just actually hearing that validation from the midwife of, you know, saying cool and not laughing at me and thinking I was being ridiculous for even considering it.

I think that almost as much as I maybe didn't say out loud, you know, to my husband, to, uh, the midwives, I think actually that's where that decision was made in my mind. I'm, I'm very sort of data driven person, so I think I'd read somewhere saying, can't remember the, I probably butchered the actual number, but it's, um, it was something along the lines of just planning for a home birth reduces your likelihood of having intervention by say, 60% or was something like that, I can't remember the exact number, but 

[00:08:14] Emma Pickett: good breastfeeding outcomes as well.

Yes. I mean, we've got really, and that may be because the people who have home births are already low risk, et cetera, but, but also logically suggest if you have a home birth, you're more likely to be in that relaxed setting. You're more likely to have the oxytocin switched on. Mm-hmm. Um, and that's, that's obviously gonna be an environment that's conducive to breastfeeding.

Can I ask a cheeky question about Hamish's views around home birth? I know we're not, he's not here. Mm-hmm. And I don't want to ask you to sort of put words in his mouth, but I think some people I talk to say I was absolutely up, absolutely up for home birth, but my husband was really scared. Mm-hmm. And, and he didn't quite have that sense of faith.

Obviously, you know, her husband will support you and your decision. Mm-hmm. But I just wondered how he felt about that, whether he had any experience of home birth or how he felt, whether he felt positively or, or was nervous. 

[00:08:58] Shonagh Johnson: Yeah. He's definitely a lot more risk averse than I am. So, you know, when we first started having that discussion, he, you know, was a little bit more hesitant than I was.

But ultimately, you know, I sort of showed him all of the, the, the things that I've read. We looked at it together and, you know, I kind of laid out my reasoning for it. And really, I think he's, and with everything, with both, uh, birth breastfeeding, when anything it comes to, um, with the babies and things, he just really trusts my judgment.

I think he, he just really trusted that I had this. Belief in, you know, what, what I was capable of doing and you know, what, what the outcomes as such. So, you know, just even little things like I think where I kinda started to help him kind of realize was, you know, well if you do end up in a situation where you have a C-section, for example, um, you know it's gonna take 30 minutes to prep an operation room for you, and we are only 20 minute drive from the hospital.

So, you know, kind of things like that. I think he started kinda go, okay, okay, that, that starts to make sense. So he was really supportive. I think ultimately he was most scared about. Having a lot of responsibility on the day. Uh, so, you know, obviously in the hospital, the midwives are usually doing most of the background work, whereas actually he was the one who was having to fill up the pool and, you know, make sure that I was fed and watered to make sure that, you know, we had, we had everything that we needed.

So, um, yeah, I think he found that responsibility quite a lot. Um, but, you know, certainly from my perspective, obviously I was very much in the zone on the day, but I didn't see any of that coming through from him as much as, you know, later on he is told me, oh my goodness, I was terrified at this point, or I thought I wasn't gonna get the pool to the right temperature, but I didn't see any of that.

So he, he did very well tied it. 

[00:10:37] Emma Pickett: Oh yeah. I just had a sudden flash of my, my daughter's home birth and, uh, it was a second birth. And, um, my poor, my poor husband was on his own until the very, very end. Oh gosh. Things moved more quickly than we were expecting, and literally the midwives were coming through the door as I was crowning.

And, um, yeah, we had a few kind of, uh, Hugh Grant type moments where, uh, he'd phoned the midwife and she said, okay, it's really important that, that you listen, listen really carefully. Whatever you do, don't. And the signal went to that moment and he was like, what did you say? I can't hear you. Uh, she was saying something about the chord, but he mys it completely anyway, is it not my story, but I, I suddenly sudden flash of remembering and yeah.

I do think there is a responsibility isn't there on the birth partner, whoever that may be. It is a different feeling. Yeah. Um, but also what an honor as well, you know, an honor and really special to have that, that connection, that and that time with your birth partner, whether or not it's your partner, partner.

Tell us about Frey's early breastfeeding. Do you remember her first breastfeed? So you were in, you had a water birth by the sounds of it. Unless he was filling a pool for fun. So you were, I presume you were in the pool when you were jumping birth to her. I just made it into the 

[00:11:41] Shonagh Johnson: pool. So, kind of similarly things, uh, happened a lot faster than I thought they would.

And I think, you know, my, my, uh, labor had started around 10:00 AM and I'd given birth by 4:00 PM so things happened relatively quickly. So first, yeah, so 

[00:11:56] Emma Pickett: for the first time, yeah. I wonder whether the second time people were saying, gosh, it's gonna be super fast for, for your second while. Yeah, well, we, we, we, spoiler alert.

We won't get to that, but yeah, so, so for about four o'clock in the afternoon Yes. For made to her appearance. So she made her 

[00:12:08] Shonagh Johnson: appearance. It was, you know, really beautiful, lovely birth. As I say, I made it into the pool just in time. So, um, it was very intense. Um, and things happened quickly. But, you know, she came out and she was happy and healthy.

Um, I was helped out onto, uh, the sofa that we'd had set up, ready to do all the checks and everything afterwards. So we did a lot skin to skin, I think. Um. I think we probably had our first breastfeed. So I, I, um, birthed the placenta about four to five minutes after, so we had our first breastfeed before that.

Uh, so yeah, somewhere around 30 minutes post birth. And I do remember, it's funny because I'll come onto that when we get to Charlotte's, but I, I do remember saying, you know, is it okay if I breastfeed her? I think she. You know, she looks like she's kind of rooting around, and I remember the midwife saying, of course she's your baby.

You know, if, if that feels right to you, and you know, you can see that she's, that's what she's looking for. But it is that thing of, you know, first birth and even being at home in my own space where, you know, I knew I'd feel a lot more autonomy over, over my body and things. I still felt that kind of, oh, is it, is it okay if I breastfeed her now?

You know, I was worried that I'd get told off if I just started doing it. 

[00:13:15] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That's really interesting. That says a lot about how in society we're all, even in a home birth situation, our brains are still very medicalized. Yeah. We think along that way. Can I, can I just say slightly off topic, I'm looking at your baby on your lap.

She's literally turning the pages of a book, reading a book to herself, like eight months, not quite nine months. I'm Charlotte. You're gonna be ruling the world in about, um, 20 years time. I look forward to hearing about that because she's obviously, she's literally switching the pages and flipping the pages.

Okay. Sorry, off topic. Um, so you had that first breastfeed. Any particular early breastfeeding problems with, with Fre? Any 

[00:13:49] Shonagh Johnson: challenges? No, honestly, we had a really positive experience. I think, you know, and I've described it to people this way and I, you know, I feel so fortunate that it did go this way, that it, it just felt like the most natural thing in the world.

Like say, you know, I had that moment of hesitation saying, is it okay if I breastfeed her? But the moment she latched on, it just felt like the most natural thing. I still felt a little bit like, oh, I shouldn't be doing this. You know, is this, you know. I've got responsibility over this baby. But she, um, you know, she just knew what she was doing and that's how I've always described it to people.

And even knowing her now as a, you know, three and a half year old, she just, just rules her own world. She knows she, she basically is, you know, and, uh, amazingly, very thankfully, being my first has just completely taught me how to be a mom. She's just led the way from right from the get go that she's gonna say, right, this is what we're doing.

So she just latched on. She figured it out. And actually she really taught me what to do, which was slightly different with Charlotte, as I say. Well, come on to that. But I'm very grateful for that experience being my first, um, that, that Freya kind of just, just knew what she was, what she was doing. So that was, that was very, um, fortunate.

And she, you know, she, oh, sorry. We've dropped the book now. That's why we're moaning. 

[00:15:01] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So, so you had the really positive early experience and it sounds as though, you know, she was latching on and you didn't have any pain. I mean, you say she taught you what to do, but then there's also. Your side of that, which is being free enough to allow that to happen.

I mean, that is you doing something. I mean, so often in our society when, you know, when moms give birth, they feel as though they should be measuring and controlling and timing. And to let go of all that and to, to allow the baby to take the lead is a, is a skill in itself. Mm. Because you have to kind of unpick all the, all the sort of cultural noise.

So don't, let's not pretend that you didn't have something to do here, Shonagh. You were, you know, you were actively being led by her making that choice and allowing that to happen. Um, so no pain, no damage. I mean, we had weight gain. Okay. The first couple of 

[00:15:50] Shonagh Johnson: weeks. Uh, definitely the, the nipple sensitivity was very, you know, that was probably the most diff difficult thing that I dealt with.

Um, you know, I bought the little sort of metal nipple shields and things that, um, seemed to help. I didn't use them all the time. 

[00:16:04] Emma Pickett: The little silver cups Yes. That you wear in between feeds? Yeah. Yeah. Just, 

[00:16:07] Shonagh Johnson: just if we did have any particular, uh, sensitivity and pain, um, you know, that, that definitely seemed to help.

I think she'd gained weight, uh, on day five. So, you know, the, the midwife was doing the, oh my goodness, she's, you know, put on weight, you know, or most babies seemed to lose weight. So, you know, I think I definitely still fell victim to a bit how long they're feeding on. You know, still just that first mom, lack of confidence of just knowing.

But I still, you know, we fed responsibly if she seemed like she needed to feed, we fed her. And, you know, I wasn't on any kind of schedule, but was still quite aware of going, okay, she's feeding for this long on this side, or, oh, she didn't, I don't think she's drained this breast. And, you know, so kind of went through those sorts of motions, uh, the first time around.

But generally everything went really well. Uh, you know, from the start. 

[00:16:54] Emma Pickett: Okay. Yeah, it's interesting you talked about an app. I think it is. We've got a lot of work to do. I think in the world of responsive feeding. We've done lots of work pro, you know, promoting that message. But I think some parents do get stuck in that measuring phase and they think of measuring apps as being, you know, helpful when actually they can hold you back from, from listening to your instincts and and relaxing about timings.

And I think sometimes they can give false messages that the longer feed is the better feed and and the longer interval is the better interval. So I think all of us who work with your parents have to be really, really careful about having conversations around apps and talking about when to stop using them.

Can I just ask you a really practical question? Mm-hmm. For anyone who's listening to this who's not had a home birth, just talk us through. You obviously talked to the midwives, you're under the care of a midwife team. You have two midwives that come to the birth. 

[00:17:44] Shonagh Johnson: Mm-hmm. 

[00:17:44] Emma Pickett: And tell us what happens after that.

Do you have to go to hospital for a baby check? Do they do the postnatal checks? What sort of happens after you've given birth? 

[00:17:52] Shonagh Johnson: We had all the baby checks and everything done at home. We didn't have to go to the hospital. Um, I did have some minor tears that had to be stitched up, but again, they were at a level that they could be done at home.

I'd obviously been warned that if stitches, you know, particular stitches were needed under, you know, different care that I might have had to be transferred. But again, you know, it was made clear. Baby will go with you. You can still keep skin to skin, you'd be transferred via ambulance, that sort of thing.

But thankfully, I, I didn't have to do that. I was able to hold baby is quite a surreal experience, really sitting on a sofa in your own living room with, you know, your legs in the air, getting stitched up while holding your baby that you've just birthed and, you know, eating a cereal bar. I do remember having one of those sort of outer body moments there of like, is this what just happened?

You know? But yeah, the, the midwives were able to do that from home. They did baby checks. I think just the initial sort of baby checks and the, the sort of official ones where they do the big long list of things. They came back and did the next day. So, um, we, I think if she was born around 4:00 PM I do remember it was about 7:00 PM they were gone.

So my husband had gone to let them out, the car park and things, and I remember sitting on the sofa, you know, having, they'd helped me shower and drove that. So I was all fresh in a night and I was sitting on the sofa holding her and my husband kind of came back in and it was, I think it was just that moment of realization of like, oh my goodness, we've just been left with this baby.

We both just burst into tears. Um, you know, it was, it was really special. And, uh, I had a home birth again with Charlotte, but, um, that was one of the things that I found, you know, just the, the best thing was just. You're just back in your own space and Yeah. You know, he was like, what do you want for dinner?

And, you know, can just get into bed and, and all of that. So I think again, because of the calmness, the positivity around the birth, I think that really helped our breastfeeding, you know, initiation and just all the skin to skin that we had and, you know, in your own home, you're fine just sitting around basically naked, um, holding your baby and, you know, not having no separation at 

[00:19:53] Emma Pickett: all.

It sounds like she stayed in your arms the whole time. Yes. Yeah. And, and testament to the fact that you, you know, it was testament to that fact that you didn't literally didn't lose any weight. I mean, you probably probably know it's really common for baby to lose weight in the first few days and the fact she didn't is a sign that you were in that good space.

Yeah. So she carries on breastfeeding. Once go past solid food happens. Mm-hmm. Did you have in your head any particular goals around breastfeeding? I dunno whether this you were influenced by family members. Were you thinking, oh, I'm going to let her do natural term weaning. I've got, I'm gonna get to 12 months.

Did you have any particular goals in mind? 

[00:20:25] Shonagh Johnson: No. So, uh, again, I'll, although I'd been, uh, you know, around people who breastfed my, you know, my sister I'm really close to had breastfed her babies. I don't think any of them had gone beyond a year. So in my head, and just again, what I'd seen within society and things, that was kind of the natural stopping point.

And I think my, my sister's experience, again, as I said, don't want to speak, uh, to her story too much, but was that, I think, you know, she told me, yeah, they all just kind of weaned themselves around 11, 12 months. Um, so in my head I just thought that's what babies did. They just kind of just stopped breastfeeding one day.

[00:20:58] Emma Pickett: I had that conversation with someone this week who'd also thought that Yeah. Um, got a bit of a shock when her 13, 14 month old looked like they had absolutely no chance and they were gonna be stopping anytime soon. So, interesting. Isn't it where we get messages from? Yeah. I mean, I think when it happens to one person, I guess they just, you just assume that that's the universal experience.

But obviously Freya was still going at that point. She was, 

[00:21:20] Shonagh Johnson: yeah. So, and I, I think, I do remember I didn't have any particular goals. It was like, wow, how amazing would it be to be able to breastfeed and Wow, how amazing would it be to get to six months? To get to a year. And I think when we got to the year, and I'd obviously, you know, read around like the, the World Health Organization's, um, recommendations to Breastfe two, I kind of thought, well, she's not showing any signs of stopping.

I'm happy with this relationship as well. So, you know, imagine if we could get to two, how incredible would that be? You know, I, I don't know anyone who's, who's breastfed that long. So, um, that was kind of, it was almost every time we hit one of those arbitrary milestones that you know, or talked about that I, I, um, kinda thought ahead, I suppose.

But other than that, we were taking each day as it as it came, and she, yep. She showed no signs stopping and here we are, um, three and a half years later. Did you, did you have to go back to work? What was your work situation? Yes. So I went back to work, um, when she was about a year old and I did a sort of phased return.

She went to nursery and we'd, we'd got to a really good place with breastfeeding, um, as much as it was. To some degree, still pretty responsive. She'd, I think around seven months started sleeping through the night. So we'd kind of just naturally night weaned apart from when she was, you know, poorly or, or teething or, you know, needed some particular comfort.

But in general, she wasn't feeding at nighttime, which I think is what really helped me, uh, certainly with continuing, because, you know, if, if I hadn't been sleeping, I think maybe my, my, um, uh, my experience might have been, you know, slightly different, uh, with, with it. So, 

[00:22:53] Emma Pickett: okay, so red flag here, everybody, not a red flag in a bad way, but a flag is waving that says seven month old babies can sleep through the night while they're still being breastfed.

And, you know, it's not true that that necessarily every breastfeeding child will struggle with their sleep and not sleep through. And the idea, I bet there are some people who threw, who've just thrown their toast across the room at the idea of not having to night wean because you are seven months old, just very naturally night weans themselves.

This happens. I haven't paid Shonagh. She's not an actress. She's a real human being. Fray is a real baby. Um, yeah. What, well, I'm so happy for you that that was your experience. Did you ha And then there was no sort of regression inverter. Commas. You didn't have her, didn't go through phases of her waking more frequently and going back to feeling more at night.

[00:23:40] Shonagh Johnson: We did around between 12 and 18 months. That was probably, I'd say actually one of the most challenging times that we've had with Freya because it was going back to work, which is you. In itself a challenging time, but going to nursery and just catching every bug, uh, that you could possibly imagine for the first six months of nursery, she, um, you know, she was, she was just back to back illnesses and that just resulted in a lot of, uh, night waking.

So, and it's, it's really tough when you've actually become quite accustomed to, you know, sleeping through the night to suddenly sleeping. Sleeping, yeah. And you're working again. And, you know, um, we struggled from that perspective, but, you know, I was happy to, to feed her again because it's, it was quite clear of what that's what she wanted.

Freya was really good at communicating that as well. We, we, uh, had started sign language from quite a young age, so she knew to kind of do the hand cla thing to, to say that she wanted milk so I could kind of, you know, decipher whether it was just a cuddle, whether it was milk, um, that she actually needed.

And at that time it was a lot of the time it was milk that she was looking for. 

[00:24:43] Emma Pickett: So you were working and doing a few more night feeds in that post 12 month period. Um, w with some co-sleeping, or was Freya and in a co in a separate room, where was everyone sleeping? She was actually in a co, in a separate room.

[00:24:55] Shonagh Johnson: We, we tried some co-sleeping with her and she just didn't sleep well. She was, and she always has been quite independent, which I suppose seems quite, you know, um, the fact that she's still breastfeeding and has held onto that seems, um, like they wouldn't sort of marry up together. But yeah, she's very independent while also still being dependent on the breastfeeding.

It's, it's, um, a kind of interesting personality trait to watch sort of grow. But it, you know, it kind of still really tracks now. 

[00:25:23] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And I, I'm really glad that you shared that because I think we do make assumptions that every body co-sleep if they breastfeed beyond a certain period of time. All toddlers who breastfeed at two or three must be co-sleeping, must be feeding through the night and, and you know, a little independence baby.

Sleeping in a separate room in a cot can still be a keen breastfe, which is, which is a really important message, I think. So that phase, you talked about it being difficult between 12 and 18 months, I'm assuming it then got a little bit easier after that. Yeah. Talk us through the decision to get pregnant again and your, at some point you made a decision to tandem feed.

Talk us through that. Yeah, 

[00:25:57] Shonagh Johnson: so, uh, Freya had, was not long too, I think, when we decided we were ready to have another baby. So we, I think I fell pregnant in the October, um, 2023. And obviously Fred had just been breastfeeding at that point. It was something that my. Husband raised more of a question because obviously, you know, he didn't have the knowledge.

He said, can you breastfeed and be pregnant at the same time? Do we need, is that something we need to think about before having another baby? And to be honest, a very quick Google of can you breastfeed while pregnant? You know, it came up, uh, the Lesi League came up with a, you know, an article, um, saying, yeah, all the research shows that unless you have some sort of high risk, you're in, within a high risk group, that there, you know, there's no evidence to suggest that there's any issue with it.

And I kind of left it there, to be honest. I didn't really think about it, uh, much beyond that. So, um, fell pregnant with, with Charlotte and the first sort of couple of weeks were okay, but we did have a really tough time with, uh, the, the nausea, the morning sickness and things. And the breastfeeding. So, uh, Freya also just really seemed to up her breastfeeding around that time.

I don't know if there's any correlation whatsoever. Could have 

[00:27:11] Emma Pickett: been supply dipping possibly. I mean, some people's supply does dip really very quickly within the first sort of six to eight weeks of pregnancy. So it may have been that that was going, what was going on, or maybe she saw that you was feeling sick and was feeling a bit shaky and needed that reassurance and breastfeeding was the way to us to kind of feel safe and connected to you.

Yeah. Um, so you were struggling a little bit during breastfeed, actually during the breastfeed. Were you finding it difficult? Yeah, 

[00:27:36] Shonagh Johnson: I think, um, I found that my morning sickness kind of elevated a little bit, and then I also had just the nipple sensitivity, which I obviously hadn't experienced since she was a newborn baby.

So there was just sort of pain as well as just feeling. Rubbish all the time. Oh, I'm sorry. So it was okay. I knew that again, because I'd experienced before that, you know, it was probably going to hopefully be around 14 weeks that my mor morning sickness dipped, which thankfully it was around that point, and we had the kind of just normal sort of, um, breastfeeding schedule.

But, um, she seemed to yeah, latch on a little bit more than, uh, than she normally needed. We were at a stage where we could, you know, I would breastfeed her and then she didn't need to be breastfed to sleep at that point. Um, where she'd kind of regressed a little bit into needing, uh, needing breastfed to sleep, which, you know, sometimes could take a really long time for her to then fall asleep properly on me.

And with the, with the nipple sensitivity and the, the sickness, those, those were some tough evenings early on. 

[00:28:34] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Did you find that the nipple sensitivity fluctuated during your pregnancy? Was it worse at certain times? What sort of patterns did you notice? 

[00:28:42] Shonagh Johnson: No, to be honest, I think it was really just the first trimester and then it just went away again.

It's almost a bit funny when I think back on it because it kind of related a lot to actually just the general pregnancy symptoms of first trimester being quite tough, second trimester being a little bit easier, and then the third trimester being sort of, uh, difficult for its own reasons as well. And that kind of correlated with, with breastfeeding, I would say.

So I do remember we'd, we'd, uh, called to tell good friends of ours about the pregnancy and uh, my friend who's, who's also breastfeeding, she kinda said, oh, and what are you gonna do? Um, I wonder what's gonna happen when your colostrum comes in. And I said, kinda like, what do you mean? Um, she said, oh, well, yeah, I'd read that around sort of 16 weeks of pregnancy.

You know, your milk supply can drop and it can, you know, turn to colostrum. So I wonder what, you know, Freya might just stop feeding. And I had, I hadn't ever heard of that before, so I did obviously look into it and I thought, oh gosh, okay, maybe she'll just stop by herself. Um, and it was, it was about 16 weeks.

She, um, was feeding one night and I think I'd. I had noticed, I kind of said to her, I said, is it, is the milk changed? And she said, yes. And I said, oh, do you? Do you like it though? And she said, yes, I like it. So she seemed to not be really by. The change in milk at all. 

[00:29:59] Emma Pickett: Yeah, it's interesting. It's great to have a verbal child who, I think we need some in-depth research study.

I'm not sure we get it past the ethics committee where we, we ask all the children who are tandem feeding to tell us exactly what it's like. Yeah. And how the milk changes. I, I, I heard of one little person that said colostrum tastes more like crisps, apparently. Oh, okay. Yeah, I can do that. And other milk tastes like strawberry ice cream and vanilla ice cream.

And, and, and, and someone else said it tastes like potatoes. Well, I did a, did a survey. Um, so I think there's a slight drop in lactose. Slightly less sweeter, a little bit higher in sodium. So she was feeding happily with the colostrum. Did you notice looser stools? That's something that some people talk about.

They notice suddenly go back to like liquidy newborn poo, which can be a bit tricky, especially if you're the middle of potty training. 

[00:30:45] Shonagh Johnson: Yes. So we did have that just initially, I'd say maybe between. 16 and 20 weeks. I suppose just those first four weeks of it being colostrum might have taken her tummy a little bit of time of getting used to, I think again, because we were only, I think, generally having sort of two feeds a day, morning and nighttime.

You know, it didn't affect her too much. But yes, I, I do remember there being a couple of occasions where I thought, oh gosh, she's got tummy bug or something's going on, and, you know, again, doing a quick Google and it coming up saying, oh, this could be related. And it took me a while for that to click. But yes, just for a couple of weeks and then just kinda went back to back to normal.

[00:31:20] Emma Pickett: Okay. I want to tell you about my brand new book called The Story of Jesse's Milky. It's a picture book for two to six year olds, and I wanted to write a book that was about weaning, but also not about weaning, because breastfeeding journeys end in all sorts of different ways. So Jesse's story is presented as having three possible endings.

In one ending, his mom is pregnant and Jesse's going to share his milk with a new baby. In the second, his mom is getting really tired and it's time for some mother led weaning. And in the third, we see a self weaning journey as Jesse's attachment to breastfeeding gradually fades. There are beautiful illustrations by the very talented Jojo Ford, and the feedback from parents so far has been so lovely and touching and I'm really excited to share the book with you.

If you're interested in my other books for Older Children, I have the Breast book, which is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And I also have two books about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding for a 10% discount on the last two.

Go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code. Mm PE 10 Makes milk picket Emma 10. So at this point she, as you say, she's feeding morning bedtime, but not necessarily to sleep. Mm-hmm. Um, and did you remember thinking, right, okay, I'm gonna make a decision here. I'm going to feed both of them when the new baby comes, or did you just kind of let it flow and 

[00:32:58] Shonagh Johnson: I was still quite undecided.

So, um, as I say, I've got a lot of supportive people in my life. Uh, the closest people around me who are the, the people that I've actually listened to, uh, mostly or go to for advice, they were all extremely supportive. But I do think I found there was a line when it came to the struggles that I had during pregnancy.

So, um, you know, I, I did experience aversion and things, um, sort of towards the end of the second and into the third trimester. And I think that's where people stopped understanding so much because it was kind of like, okay, well why, why don't you wean then, you know, I understood before the continuing breastfeeding when you're, it was a mutually beneficial relationship and, and now it seems that you're not enjoying it.

So I struggled with that sort of mentally trying to wrap my head around it, because I think, again, unless you've experienced it. It's very difficult to explain to someone why it's not just as simple as going, okay, yeah, let's just, we'll, we'll stop here, and that makes sense for everyone. It's, it's, it felt like a huge decision.

[00:33:58] Emma Pickett: Yeah. When you said you were having struggles in the last trimester mm-hmm. What was going on for you at that, at that point? 

[00:34:02] Shonagh Johnson: So I did experience some aversion, and that was in the form of just feeling. Heebies. I think one of the midwives, uh, again, I was really lucky. My midwife, who I had during my second pregnancy had actually breastfed through her pregnancy so she could give me, you know, some actual practical information and advice about it.

But I remember her saying, is it just like the heebie-jeebies that you get? And I said, yes. It's exactly like that. It was just that, oh, I can't describe it. It just, I don't want you on me sort of thing. 

[00:34:31] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that is a good word. I like that. Yeah, that really describes it well, doesn't it? That just kind of like spine tingling.

Ooh. Doesn't quite feel right. Some people describe it as like feeling like ants are crawling across your skin, but, but the heebie-jeebies is a good, is a good word. But you would, so you had a version. Did you do anything to try and dissipate that? Did you find any strategies help? I found, um, just using my hypnobirthing 

[00:34:52] Shonagh Johnson: breathing really helped.

Um, I also actually occasionally used, uh, the birth comb that I had, uh, purchased for forgiving birth to just, um. Give me something to distract. So I'd just hold this comb in my hand and kind of squeeze on it and it would just help distract from what was going on. And I found it kind of stopped the sensation so much, but honestly, most of the time I just kind of gritted my teeth and got through it hoping that it might be better the next time.

I found that the evenings were worse than the other. Any other feeds of the day? I dunno if it came down to tiredness. Um, sometimes dehydration 

[00:35:28] Emma Pickett: is a factor. 

[00:35:29] Shonagh Johnson: I was, I was about to say actually there's noticed 

[00:35:30] Emma Pickett: a correlation with that. Yeah. 

[00:35:31] Shonagh Johnson: Yeah. The, if I hadn't drank enough water, I, I read that and I kind of, something again clicked and I went, oh yeah, how much water have I had today?

And, you know, I started to really concentrate on that, which helped. And honestly, just actually finding, I think that was around the time that I found your content, so, um, I can't remember exactly how I came across it. Probably something's been shared on Instagram or something, and I thought, oh, this is interesting because this is, you know, exactly.

What I'm looking for, I can't find, I really hadn't come across anything other than a couple of articles online talking about breastfeeding through pregnancy and, uh, tandem feeding, natural term winning and things. So I was actually really relieved when I found your content and started listening to the podcast.

And I listened to a few that discussed a version, and I really remember the sense of a weight sort of being lifted off me, of just that validation of thinking, oh my goodness, I'm not a horrible person who is struggling with this on my own. You know, it's actually, you know, it's a thing. It's something that, you know, is quite common for people to experience.

And yeah, I remember finding that very validating. Um, so I was extremely grateful to, to have found that at that point. And honestly, wish I'd, I'd actually come across your page earlier. 

[00:36:40] Emma Pickett: Oh, you're very kind. Yep. Checks on the post. Thanks. Thanks, Jon. So, I mean, yeah, I mean, the thing about Aversion is that if you find, if you learn it's a thing, obviously it doesn't take it away, but it's, it is this enormous sense of relief for people to realize that they're not alone and it's something that other people experience.

And especially during pregnancy, it's so common. I did a survey back last autumn, before I did a talk in Ireland about tandem feeding and asked, so 200 people told me about their tandem feeding and their feeding and pregnancy experiences and aversion was very, very common. Mm. I mean, more than 50% of people talked about aversion during pregnancy.

Um, you know, it's something we really must talk about. Um, and people need to know what to expect. I think some people are nervous that they're going to have aversion continuing after the new baby's born. Yeah. So, to answer that question for us now, did you continue having aversion feeding Freya once you'd given birth?

[00:37:34] Shonagh Johnson: Yes, for me, I did, uh, unfortunately, so we, we did talk to her a lot about it and just coming back to the, I suppose the pre-birth, um, sort of element was really upping talking about it, saying, you know, when baby comes, baby's going to need milk as well. And I think it was, I can't, I'm, I'm sorry I can't remember the lady's name that you'd spoken to, but there was a particular podcast where she talked about putting the boundaries in place, you know, with her daughter and some of the, you know, you discussed some of the tools that you could use and that was really, again, pivotal for me.

So we used, uh, singing. So, um, okay, we'll feed for as long as, uh, twinkle Twinkle, we'll sing, twinkle, twinkle twice or something, uh, and you know, then we'll stop feeding. And that generally worked quite a lot. 

[00:38:18] Emma Pickett: So you were doing that pre Charlotte? Yeah. You were doing that before you gave birth. Yeah. So you're putting boundaries in place.

Did you ever. Say to her, mommy's having a hard time. Did you ever put that into words? I did. I 

[00:38:28] Shonagh Johnson: think again, because she's, she's quite a perceptive child, so I think I, I think it was that element of her feeling how tense I was. And you know, even when I'm kind of going, okay, trying to relax, I'm doing my breathing and everything, she can hear that I'm doing these, like, sort of infor out eight breaths, which I don't normally do.

Normally I'd be chatting to or singing. So she was obviously so aware of how I was feeling and uh, how I was reacting to it. So I, I thought the best thing to do was, rather than pretend that everything was okay, was just to talk to her about it and try and explain. 

[00:39:02] Emma Pickett: Can I ask you what kind of words you used?

I totally agree with this approach, by the way. I think we underestimate little people so often, and, and a big part of what I advocate for is being as authentic and truthful as and as honest as possible. Yeah. And, and the idea, we can hide it from them. It's just not the reality. Even if they're not consciously aware, they are subconsciously aware that something's going on.

Yeah. Um, so I'm not gonna ask you to role play, I'm not gonna pretend to be fryer, but do you remember the language you used? How did you say this is hard for mommy? 

[00:39:31] Shonagh Johnson: I think, you know, I just said this is, I remember saying something to her one day around saying, you know, breastfeeding, um, or mommy's milk makes you feel happy, doesn't it?

And she said, yes. And I said, you know, well, you know, it's also important that it makes mommy feel happy as well, and that we both feel happy while, while we're having mummy milk. Um, and I said, because it's such a special time and you know, mommy loves her cuddles with you, but sometimes it doesn't always make me feel happy and, you know, it can be sore and things.

So I think. Speaking to her that way kind of helped. Uh, and you know, even now she still uses the word happy. Whenever I ask her to talk about what having mommy's milk means to her, she always just said, it makes me so happy. So I think, you know, that, that, that seemed to be the word that resonated with her.

[00:40:16] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that's, that's so honest. I really respect that approach because, um, people say, oh gosh, you can't say that. You can't say it doesn't make you feel happy, but why the heck not? Why could you not be truthful? She's going to see it anyway, she's gonna see it on your face. Um, so to be honest about that, I don't think there's anything that, that we should be shy away from around that conversation.

Yeah. 

[00:40:35] Shonagh Johnson: And I think also just making sure that she knew it wasn't because of her. I think that was the other thing that I, you know, tried to focus on is it's not because of you, it's because, um, you know, and again, I tried not to, to highlight the, the baby and mommy's tummy being the issue either because I didn't want that to become, to become an issue in itself.

So, um, you know, I just said, um. It's nothing to do with you. Um, sometimes it just doesn't, um, feel good for mommy and it needs to feel good for mommy as well as feeling good for you. So if mommy asks you to stop, then you know, we need to. And honestly, I think it's been such a valuable lesson and boundaries, which you don't always get to have at such a young age.

And I think it's really helped her start to understand respecting other people's boundaries and putting boundaries in place yourself. 

[00:41:18] Emma Pickett: Yep. It's, it is the perfect lesson for body autonomy and consent and empathy. It's just that, it's just a magical thing to have, have that opportunity. But you are saying that the aversion continued after gave birth.

Yes. You're now obviously nine months into tandem feeding. Do you still have aversion feeding for her now? I don't, 

[00:41:37] Shonagh Johnson: no. Um, again, I think we had gone into the start and, uh, she was really good, you know, um, we didn't actually do a lot of actual tandem feeding as in feeding them both at the exact same time.

But we did, do, you know, I, I did that a couple of times, especially in the very early days, and she absolutely loved it. You know, by, once I figured out how to position them both, you know, I think that was such a real, like, such a, an amazing thing for, for their bond. Um, you know, I just have such a core memory of.

Sitting on the sofa with them and, um, Freya holding Charlotte's hand, uh, while they were feeding. And I think it, it, it really kind of helped us from that perspective. But yeah, the, the actual aversion was still only in the evening feed, so, um, okay. What we started to do, oh, sorry, grumpy. Um, what we started to do, um, was, and it kind of happened a little bit naturally.

Um, my husband and I take it in terms each night to do bedtime. So, um, I was up until that point, feeding her every night and then either I would do her stories and her bedtime, or my husband would come in and do it. So we kind of got to a point where we actually managed to, um, she only has milk now when it's me doing her bedtime.

Okay. So actually at the moment, nine months in, and probably from about I'd say three months. Into the tandem feeding. She is only having milk generally every second night, or if she's poorly, you know, we'll, we'll do a little bit of feeds and things if she asks, but, um, yeah. 

[00:43:03] Emma Pickett: Okay. That's, that's interesting to, and, and, but morning feeds have a, are are okay.

You don't have the experience during morning feeding? 

[00:43:09] Shonagh Johnson: No. Um, yeah, so it, it seemed to just be, be the evening and yeah, we're, we're kind of now moved away from morning feeds, I think because she's, she's quite busy once she gets up in the morning and, and, you know, quite easily distracted. So we find that was the easier one to, to kind of let go of.

And again, that all kind of happened quite naturally, I would say that was sort of led by her, um, on, on that front. 

[00:43:31] Emma Pickett: Okay. Charlotte, are you saying we've ignored you talking about your birth? Yeah, you're absolutely right. We have, we didn't talk about your birth. I'm so sorry. We'll go back, ask Mommy about that now.

So, home birth number two? Yes. Tell us how that went and what was that experience like? You said things were a little bit different, so I'm wondering what you're gonna tell me. 

[00:43:46] Shonagh Johnson: Well, the, the birth itself, uh, actually very similar. Um, I seem to have very, um. Sociable babies who, who like to be born during business hours.

So again, I think my, my labor started around 10:00 AM and she was born just after three, I think. So, very similar to the first birth, A little bit shorter, definitely not as intense because I kind of knew what to expect. Um, the midwives arrived a little bit earlier this time, so we kind of had that support a bit earlier.

[00:44:13] Emma Pickett: And where was Freyer? Can I ask you about what you did with Freyer? 

[00:44:16] Shonagh Johnson: Really luckily, actually, she was, uh, with her child minder that day. So we'd, we'd kind of planned for every single eventuality. One thing I should have said as well with both births was that they both were very late. So Freya was 10 days late and Charlotte was actually 12 days late, so she was even later than Freya.

So there was a lot of kind of waiting around, a lot of trying to, you know, if she comes this day, what do we do? Or, you know, if it happens in the middle of the night, what do we do? So very lucky to have my parents close by who are sort of on hand for support. But, um, that morning I'd woken up and I kind of thought, you know, today's the day I think this is, this is when it's happening.

I was actually booked in for an induction the next day because I was, uh, at that sort of four, two week mark, and I was still quite keen to have a home birth. Um, but I just kind of thought, no, it's gonna happen today. I'm not having an induction. The, the will or something kind of pushed us through. Um, might have just been luck, I don't know.

But, um, she, yeah, we'd woken up that morning and I thought, today's the day, so she went to her child manager as normal. And it was really lovely because Charlotte was born at sort of half three in the afternoon. Uh, my mom and dad went and picked Freya up. Uh, they took her to the park for a little bit just while the midwives were still here and sort of tidying everything up.

And then she came home around 6:00 PM I think came in, met her little sister, had some dinner, and then went to bed. It was normal, you know, it was like a normal day as far as she was concerned, apart from there was another human now in her house. 

[00:45:38] Emma Pickett: Tell us about that first meeting. There's lot, I think there's lots of kind of internet discussion around how you should do that first meeting and how, where the baby should be.

What did you decide to do? 

[00:45:48] Shonagh Johnson: We did have Charlotte in the sort of little, uh, sleepy head. On the bed. Bed, and I was sitting on the bed. So, uh, Hamish went and got, Freya brought her upstairs, so she was the first one. Um, we hadn't told anyone, we just said, you know, baby's here to, to sort of close family and things, but we hadn't, you know, she was the first one to find out that we'd had a girl and what her name was going to be and things.

So, um, that was really special. We, we did have little toys. Uh, Freya is really into Bluey, and we've had this because it, you know, bluey and Bingo are, are sisters. Um, we'd had this thing about her being bluey and her sibling being bingo. So, um, you know, Charlotte had a little bluey to give to Freya, and Freya had a little bingo to give her, so she was Oh, that's so cute.

Yeah, she was quite chuffed about that. So I think that was kind of the first, the first thing she said, okay, this baby's okay. She's got me a present and she's quiet and, and Mommy's still here and she's still mommy. So. But yeah, she, she was great and she just immediately just said, I need to go get granny and papa.

So she wanted to just show her off to the world. 

[00:46:46] Emma Pickett: Aw, that's great. So, so she went to bed. She's a good sleeper at this point. Yeah. So she sleeps. Yeah. Um, what were those very first few days like? Did you make a decision that you weren't going to ramp up freyer's feeding? Did you think if she asks for more feeds, I won't be doing more feeds?

Or did you want to be more flexible? What did you decide to do? Yeah, 

[00:47:05] Shonagh Johnson: I wanted to be more flexible, I think, because, you know, one of the decisions or the reasons that I decided to go with tandem feeding and not to do any kind of weaning was, you know, I felt very strongly that Freya shouldn't have to grow up.

Um, you know, I was very conscious about that language, um, just because she had a sibling at the end of the day, as far as I was concerned, she was pretty much still my baby. So I think a lot of people had kind of given that advice of like, oh, you know, you just tell her that she's a big girl now, you know, she doesn't need mommy's milk anymore.

And I was really. You know, against using that sort of language just for us, I think it felt unfair to me to say to her, you know, you're a big girl and just because this baby who you've not had any decision in coming along Yeah. Is here now. You don't get to sort of, uh, feed the way that you did. 

[00:47:50] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That, that phrase big girl, I think is something that they own.

We don't own, if they want to say they're a big girl, if they want to, you know, do big girl things, that's their agency over there. Yeah. They get to Gate, gate. Keep that phrase, we don't. So, yeah, I think that's, that's very wise. So, so did she feed more in the first few days? What happening? She did. 

[00:48:08] Shonagh Johnson: Um, I think because she was, she was obviously quite interested in what was going on.

She saw that Charlotte was feeding a lot and she was really respectful, though, again, potentially either just because of her nature or because of, you know, this, this experience that we'd had with teaching her little bit about boundaries. But we'd, you know, we'd spoken to her and said, you know, you know how you eat food and you have solid food and things like that.

Well, babies can't have that. They can only have mommy milk. So Charlotte needs to get mommy's milk first and then you can, um, you can have some after. And she was quite happy with that, to be honest. Um, there wasn't any resentment towards, towards that setup. I think she just was quite happy that she got to still, uh, breastfeed.

So, um, we, I would, you know, feed Charlotte on one side and then if she wanted milk immediately and it was gonna cause any kind of issues, um, I would then put Charlotte on the other side and Freya would come and have the side that Charlotte had just had. So. 

[00:48:57] Emma Pickett: Oh, that's a good idea. 

[00:48:58] Shonagh Johnson: Yeah. So, so we'd just been kind of doing it that way, or, you know.

Just trying to manage it. But because Charlotte was gaining weight, you know, again, she also, she gained weight in the first five days as well. So, um, I didn't have any concerns about my supply or, or Freya taking a lot of the milk, which I think is one of the issues and concerns that people raise is that, you know, toddler's gonna take all the milk from baby.

[00:49:19] Emma Pickett: That's a common fear, isn't it? And I think the only time that's valid is in the, literally the first, you know, 24 to 48 hours when we're producing colostrum only. I know, I know you know this already for, but for anybody listening, that's the only time we worry about, you know, baby having their milk taken by the older child.

Once milk's come in, we're supply and demand. Yeah. Just as if you've got twins, you know, your body will make what's, what's asked of it. So we don't have, and it can actually help Yeah. If there are weight gain problems to have that stimulation from the older child. 

[00:49:49] Shonagh Johnson: I, I have a very fond. Uh, memory of the first when my milk did come in, sort of around day three or four.

And Freya having her first sort of milk feed, which obviously, you know, had been colostrum for about six months or so. And, you know, she had this feed and she sat up and I remember Hamish saying, oh my goodness, she looks. Stoned completely outta it. She almost, it was that sort almost cartoonish thing, and she stood up and kind of did that like wobble almost.

She looked little birds around her head 

[00:50:18] Emma Pickett: in a circle. 

[00:50:19] Shonagh Johnson: It was some, I think she was just like, oh my goodness, because, you know, I've, I've got quite a fast let down. And I think obviously at that point, because you're supplies all over the place, it was almost the sort of, uh, tidal wave of milk that had to come turn.

I think she actually, I'd say backed off a little bit for, for a couple of days just while it was, um, actually, uh, sort of settling down my milk supply because I think she was a bit overwhelmed. 

[00:50:45] Emma Pickett: Sounds like you blasted like a fight with a fire hose. Bless her. Uh, so she eventually did settle down mm-hmm.

To not feeding as frequently and went back to those kind of two feeds a day. How did Charlotte's breastfeeding carry on after that? After that you have, you've mentioned not having any early weight gain problems, any other challenges with her breastfeeding? 

[00:51:03] Shonagh Johnson: So, yeah, she definitely, um, struggled a bit more than Freya.

She needed a bit more help. And again, as I said before, I'm just so grateful actually that she was my second because I felt, you know, a little bit more knowledgeable with, uh, with how to kinda support her and what a good latch should look like and that sort of things. I, I mentioned I have a fast letdown, frail, loved my fast letdown.

Um, you know, she, you know, was all about it. And actually Charlotte really struggled, uh, which was something I hadn't experienced before. You know, she would cough and slutter a lot at the start of feeds. Um, you know, she was a bit sicky because it was all coming out a bit too fast, you know, affected her nappies and things.

So there was a little bit of adjustment just while, while my supply kind of figured itself out. And she was also just obviously learning, uh, herself how to, how to handle the letdown and, and get to grips with it. 

[00:51:53] Emma Pickett: So you are describing a really positive tandem feeling experience. Mm-hmm. And I'm, and I, and it's really lovely to hear.

I mean, I'm so, I'm so sorry about the aversion continuing. That was obviously not great, but you, you, you sort of knew how your body worked. You understood what you needed. You'd put those boundaries in place pre-birth, um, and you'd obviously had that lovely ex, you know, experience of, of setting an environment where you could talk about language with Frere and be honest and open with her.

Um, which must help her be a very sensitive big sister. How is she as a big sister? We're not judging her by the way. She can be however she likes, but what has their relationship been like? Oh, it's been absolutely 

[00:52:29] Shonagh Johnson: amazing. I knew, I knew she would be a really, um, caring big sister because she's just a very caring little girl.

She's very empathetic, very observant. She really. Watches people and thinks about how people are feeling and things. So I knew that she was, she was going to be good, but I really do believe that the tandem feeding experience we had right at the start really helped that bond. Any issues that we had were brought out on us.

She's never shown any type of aggression or resentment towards Charlotte at any stage, even in the last nine months. And yeah, to be honest, most of it was directed at Hamish. I think, again, there was, there was a couple of points where I noticed that she was really pushing things with him and not with me.

And I think there was a little bit of, I dunno if that's, I assume it's probably quite common that children gonna think, oh, well I don't wanna annoy mommy or push mommy's buttons, because she could, she could, uh, be taken away or, you know, the milk be taken away or something. So, um, she, she definitely, uh, pushed a little bit more with him.

But yeah, their relationship's been amazing. Even now, I still, I've tandem fed them as. You know, recently, as a couple of weeks ago when Hamish was out one evening, I, I fed them both at bedtime because they both needed some milk before bed and there was no one else there to hold anyone. So, um, so yeah. So that still still works out and it's, you know, not a daily occurrence, but it's really special when it does happen.

[00:53:53] Emma Pickett: It's a great tool, isn't it? And I, I do think that some people are like, oh, I shouldn't be feeding when the new baby comes, because that makes my life harder. Mm-hmm. It's harder if the toddler thinks they're gonna get milk or they will have to wait for a feed. My experience is that actually it's just really useful to have that tool that immediately calms your child and regulates them and helps 'em go to sleep.

And, and if you can do it with boundaries in place as well, that's the magic. Mm-hmm. That's the, you know, that's if you've got achieved what you've achieved, that I think is the ideal and what you're saying about their relationship, you know, I, a lot of people have said to me that they think tandem feeding made a big difference to the establishment of their relationship of the, the siblings relationship.

That was a common theme throughout the, uh, the survey I did last year. That's, that's my personal experience as well with my two children. I really do think that tandem feeding made a big difference to their early life and their early relationship. Um, and I, I don't mean to idealize tandem feeding because for some people it's really tough and they have got a much more demanding older child and, you know, there are bigger feelings and bigger emotions, but that may not be because of breastfeeding.

That's, that's parenting two children. And it's not, it's not rosy, it's not always super easy. Um, but it's not necessarily the breastfeeding that's the problem in that situation. Um, so you've described such a positive situation, Shonagh, and it's so nice actually to have a podcast conversation with somebody where a bit of nipple sensitivity and some aversion, which I'm not disputing is horrible, is, you know, the worst challenges you've had to deal with.

What, what were the, the worst moments? I don't mean to focus on the negative, but what's been the toughest bit? 

[00:55:28] Shonagh Johnson: Definitely the aversion. I think the, the guilt that I felt around that was quite crippling at times, to be honest. You know, um, coming outta re's room at bedtime, some nights just crying because, you know, I felt so guilty about having snapped at her or, you know, kind of pushed her off me and saying, Nope, can't do it anymore.

That, that definitely has been, has been the toughest point. But I think overall, you know, it's just been such a positive thing for all of us, and I know that she won't remember those moments. Um, for me, the biggest thing coming back to that was just always apologizing and trying to speak to her about it as well.

Taking accountability for the way that I've behaved, saying, you know, it's not okay that mommy shouted at you or got annoyed at you. Um, but tried to explain sort of my why as such, and, you know, I'll, I'll, you know, things will get better. Um, and she kind of just obviously still felt the love and the support and everything, so it didn't, um, I could see that it didn't obviously have the effect on her that it was having on me.

Um, she'd kind of forgotten about it, you know, while I was still, you know, sitting weeping, 

[00:56:32] Emma Pickett: Aw, I'm sorry about the weeping. But, but modeling that, that, that apology I think is really valuable. I mean, you know, we apologize, we repair and that makes such a difference. And again, models how we want our children to behave.

Before we finish, Anna, tell us about your milk donation stuff. So you've, you, you told me earlier that you'd started to think about donating milk and you've signed up with the hospital close to you. Tell us about that process. 

[00:56:56] Shonagh Johnson: Yes. So, um, there is a milk bank in Scotland, uh, which is run by the NHS that you can donate milk through.

So it's a really easy process. Um, I just had a. Found, uh, found the website and I had to fill in a form questionnaire. Just lots of questions, obviously about your health. I think you can only do it if your baby's under 12 months, that sort of thing, you know, ticking all these boxes. And then they came back with an email just saying, yep, you know, you've, you've kind of passed our.

Pre-screening as such, and now we're gonna send out a box for you to have a a, a blood test done. So they sent a box to my house that had all the milk bottles that I needed, a bag, all the forms that I needed to fill in, as well as then, uh, a blood sample, uh, kit as well. So I just had to book an appointment with my gp, who I went in, saw nurse, they did it, and then put it in the post.

And yeah, I'm currently still collecting, uh, collecting milk. It's a bit of a slower process for me because, uh, I, I don't pump, Charlotte's exclusively breastfed, so it's trying to find times, uh, where I can pump. And she kind of trying to navigate that of, okay, is this a time where she's not going to feed?

So she's, she's starting to sleep for longer stretches again in the night. So, you know, I'm kind of pumping at nighttime, trying to fill up as much as I can in a bottle. And, you know, it's not, it's not lots of milk, but I kind of thought, you know, having listened to, to a podcast of yours, um, again, I'm sorry, I forget the, the lady's name that you spoke to, but she had a really inspiring story about donating breast milk in, in memory of, of her, um.

And I just found yes. Yeah, I found that.

It was just a kind of, oh my goodness, this, you know, amazing woman is doing this, and you know, why, why? You know, why am I not doing something like that? And I think it just really, you know, I, I feel this is Charlotte's my, my last baby, and I just feel after such a positive breastfeeding experience, it's just such, you know, a beautiful thing to do with it, with, with, um, with it and, you know, to try and almost my way of thanking, thanking the, the breastfeeding for the, the lactation gods.

I love that. 

[00:58:59] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I love that. And I know that, so Charlotte, who, who's, you're talking about Charlotte, who donated milk after the loss of her, her son Robin. I'm sure Charlotte would be really touched to hear that, that that podcast inspired you because um, you know, I think that that's really significant.

That's part of Robin's legacy as well. Yeah. So that's really special. So I think it's good. Also good to hear that you don't have to produce two liters a day. And it's not, you know, it takes time. You can accumulate you, you put it in the freezer, and then some lovely person on a bike will turn up and take your milk away at some point.

And what you said about the 12 month cutoff is interesting 'cause it's gonna be different in different milk banks. So Heart's, milk Bank, for example, have a two year cutoff. Okay. Um, it's gonna be different, different areas. Um, but yeah. Donating milk, what a gift. Thank you. Yeah. For doing that. No, I say I, because I'm a, I'm a trustee for the Human Milk Foundation and, and it just makes such a difference to families.

It makes a difference to not just the babies, but the mental health of the families and the parents. Um, it, you know, means more positive breastfeeding outcomes for the, for the, for the mothers and, and the hospitals. It's just such an impactful thing to do it. The ripple effect is huge. So thank you for doing that.

I know it's a faff getting a blood test done. I know it's a faff filling out forms, but it's just such an important thing. And Charlotte, thank you very much for getting some, allowing some of your milk to be donated. Oh, she's waving at me, so I appreciate the wave. Um, thank you so much Shanna, for sharing your story today.

Um, yeah, it's just really lovely to hear, um, you know, how you've gone through this experience and, and again, useful I think for people to hear that aversion experience. And I think sadly, it is also valuable for people to hear that aversion doesn't always go the minute you give birth. Mm-hmm. And to, and to be a little bit prepared for that and to, to bear that in mind.

But it's, um, it's good to hear that, you know, you've had strategies that have helped and you've been on top of it. Um, is there anything that we haven't talked about that you want to make sure we cover? 

[01:00:48] Shonagh Johnson: Um, I think probably for me in closing, I think something I did touch on it, but just really want to, um, hit home about is.

Just, you know, I, I was thinking about coming on here and thinking, oh gosh, you know, I've had this really positive experience, you know, without too many hiccups, you know, what can I really offer? And I think the thing for me upon reflection is just the support that I had around me was so pivotal. So anyone who's listening, who, um, you know, is supporting someone, um, on their breastfeeding journey, home, birth, whatever it might be, you know, just make sure you listen to them and really validate how they're feeling and what they need and things.

Because for me, just having that validation and positivity from the people around me really, really helped my journey. You know, there was never anyone who, you know, whether healthcare setting or. You know, family and friends who really kinda said, oh no, you shouldn't be doing this, or You shouldn't be breastfeeding beyond this stage.

Or, you know, I, I've just had a lot of support around me and I think that's been one of the biggest things as well as, you know, giving credit to myself of, of the journey that we've, uh, been on and all the things that I've done to, to help that. But, you know, the support around me has been instrumental.

[01:01:57] Emma Pickett: Good, good. Yeah. And we are the support for others and, and going out and finding your neighbor and your friend who maybe is still breastfeeding and not other people know, not many other people know she's still breastfeeding. Yeah. We can go out and be that support for the next people as well. Thank you so much, Anna, for sharing your story today, and it's been an honor, Charlotte, watching you read your books and have a bit of milk and, uh, thank you very much for sharing your mommy with me.

And, uh, yeah, very best of luck with your next steps. Keep keep you posted. Thank you very much.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well, get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.