Becca's story - returning to breastfeeding after exclusive pumping

Sometimes the thing we need most is the space and time to figure it out ourselves.

My guest this week, Becca from Oxfordshire, had a challenging start to breastfeeding her son, Rupert. A combination of a tongue tie, slightly inverted nipples, and troubles latching, led to severe nipple damage just days after Rupert’s birth. Becca turned to exclusive pumping to let her nipples heal, and days turned into weeks. 

Despite her struggles, Becca found hope and support through local breastfeeding groups and charities.  Giving herself the time and space to figure out what worked for her, she eventually returned to successful breastfeeding after five weeks and is still feeding Rupert now at 16 months. 

Find out about the charities that helped Becca - 

Oxfordshire Breastfeeding Support https://oxbreastfeedingsupport.org/

Wallingford Babybar https://www.wallingfordbabybar.co.uk/

Didcot Baby Monday  https://www.didcotbabymonday.co.uk/

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript it AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I am talking to Becca, Becca from Oxfordshire, and as you'll have seen from the title of the episode, we're talking about the experience of having a really, really rough start to breastfeeding.

So rough that she actually stopped feeding for a while and went to just pumping and what it's like to go through that experience, what it's like to restart, to restart breastfeeding after a while. And the fact that she's now happily breastfeeding her toddler Rupert, who is 16 months spoiler alert. So it's really a story of inspiration and hope and overcoming hurdles and finding the right support at the right time.

And I think I've just given away all the information that anyone needs. So that's the end of the episode. Thanks very much for listening. Yeah. Sorry Becca. That was giving, sometimes it's good to give a little praise at the beginning so people know what they're getting, but maybe that was a little bit too much information.

So you are somebody who obviously is now breastfeeding, a 16 month old, the lovely Rupert who's just gone off to his swimming lesson. Tell me about, first of all, what Breastfeeding's, like right now, what's breastfeeding like, but what's his pattern? What's a typical 24 hours for you? So 

[00:01:49] Becca: I'm actually really lucky in that I have some time off during the week where I'm with Reaper all of the time, and I also have him in nursery a couple of days and sometimes today his dad has him and he, his grandparents look after him one day a week as well.

So we don't have a typical day. So sometimes if he's in nursery, I'll just feed him in the morning when he wakes up. I'll feed him right before I drop him off at nursery when I pick him up, and then maybe once more in the evening or just to go to bed. Whereas if he's with me, he will still feed in the morning, but then he's just learned how to ask for a feed.

So that means we've suddenly gone to feeding loads of notes and notes. 'cause he gets, as other people have said on this podcast, he gets the rush of being able to communicate and he also gets the feed as well. So he's really enjoying that at the moment. 

[00:02:35] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that lovely. What I call communication buzz.

People are often kind of like, oh yeah, it's, you know, 12 months, 13 months, breastfeeding's fading away a little bit and then suddenly they get the, the power of being able to ask, you are too young to remember this, but there was a TV program called Heman when I was a kid. It was a cartoon and Heman used to say by the power of Gray Skull.

And he used to like put his hands together in this amazing lightning bolt come out the sky. And I sometimes think that's a bit like what little toddlers feel like when they're asking for a breastfeed. They get this amazing feel of feeling of empowerment and the request of asking is so fantastic. And if you don't mind, it works.

Absolutely. Well if you do mind it can be quite overwhelming. How are you finding it right now? 

[00:03:17] Becca: Yeah, it's not too bad. So a lot of the time if Ru puts distracted, if he's busy, if we're at a toddler group, he kind of won't ask unless he gets really Patel or upset by something. Whereas it's more likely it's just if we're at home not doing very much that he will ask for a feed.

It's, it's not too frequent and it feels very manageable at the moment. And I think what's really nice is spoilers for the rest of the podcast, now that I have lots of resources and places to go to, to know that it's completely normal and it's just a phase and it will pass and there's nothing I'm doing wrong, I'm absolutely fine with it.

[00:03:47] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And what's your nights like at the moment? Where's everyone sleeping? What's the typical night like for him? 

[00:03:52] Becca: Um, so over the last maybe month or so, what's really nice is that we will now do I want to say like anywhere between an hour and a half to four hours in his cut at the start of the night. So that's been really nice because I kind of have my evenings back a bit so I can put him down in the clock.

But usually the first time he wakes up or the second time he wakes up, he comes in bed with us. 

[00:04:12] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:04:12] Becca: We've gone from, I think a lot of parents will recognize this at the start of our parenting experience when he was first born, we had a next to me. We thought that we'd transition him to a co in his room and then we'd get our bed back and instead we've just bought a bigger bed.

[00:04:28] Emma Pickett: Yes. The, the, the acceptance of the co-sleeping, it's almost like a religious moment where you think, I shouldn't be doing this. Oh, hang on, hang on. This is what's gonna get me more sleep. So I will do this, and then you think I should stop doing this. And then you think, no, no, no, hang on. We're all getting more sleep.

That's the bit that matters. That's the important bit. And your very vivid description of what I call the, the evening cot. The Twilight Evening Cot experience where that's where they are when they're safe in the evening when you are doing your thing and you are having your grownup time, but for a chunk of the night they're in bed with you.

So partial co-sleeping I think is so, so common. Um, I think lots and lots of people will, will, will relate to that. So you are working how, how many days a week at the moment? Uh, so I do what's called 

[00:05:12] Becca: compressed hours. So I work long days, Mondays and Fridays. I work kind of more normal, lengthy days, Tuesdays and Thursdays.

[00:05:18] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:05:18] Becca: And on Wednesday I'll kind of. Have a bit of time in the evenings and when sleeping to answer emails and things. 

[00:05:24] Emma Pickett: Okay. And do you find that you are, when you are having those long, long days that you are uncomfortable, are you, you need to express at all? Were you expressing when you first went back, what was your story returning to work?

[00:05:35] Becca: Okay, so again, spoilers, um, I didn't really get on with expressing after we got back to breastfeeding. So, um, we knew that we put, took a bottle. Again, this is gonna be something that I think a lot of parents will recognize. When he was tiny, he took a bottle. And so when he was four or five months old and I was starting to think about going back to work, we thought maybe one feed a day, his dad can give it to him with a bottle and I can pump.

And so we started trying to do that and he was, he was like, what is this mommy? I don't want my milk in a bottle anymore. I've never seen 

[00:06:08] Emma Pickett: this before. What are you talking about? 

[00:06:10] Becca: No. So we tried a lot of different things. We tried with a different types of cups, with an open cup, with a free flowing cup with milk, the milk being warm, freshly pumped, whatever.

Didn't really make a difference. He wasn't interested in his milk in a bottle. But, um, my work has been really, really supportive through my whole pregnancy, breastfeeding parenting journey. And so. I actually went back to work when he was about seven months old, and my husband was able to take shared parental leave, which was amazing.

But again, he still wasn't taking a bottle. Rupert 

[00:06:47] Emma Pickett: rather than your husband. Yes, yes. We're not worried about your, whether your husband takes the bottle as, so 

[00:06:52] Becca: when I went back to work, Rupert still wasn't taking a bottle and I was really worried about what that was gonna mean. And a lot of the information we had was, oh, it's okay.

When they're really hungry they will, they will take a bottle. So we tried that. Spoilers again did not work. Yeah, 

[00:07:08] Emma Pickett: that that is a myth. It was like, no, I don't mean to interrupt you for a second, but I just wanna highlight that that is a really unhelpful piece of information, I think, because you end up having very, very dysregulated, very hungry, potentially unwell little children.

And I remember one story when I first became a lactation consultant of a woman who went on business from the UK to New York and someone had said to her, oh no, your baby will take a bottle when they're hungry enough. And she had to fly back. I mean, she literally had to get on another plane because it just didn't happen.

So, so the idea that that is a, you know, that's gonna happen is, is just not helpful. I mean, obviously you've talked about cups and trying different things. I mean, did anyone talk to you about finger feeding? Did anyone talk to you about, um, spoon feeding? I mean, obviously there were lots of different kinds of options that you haven't necessarily mentioned about.

So I don't want someone to think that if their baby doesn't take a cup, there aren't other choices. There are, there are other options, but, um, it must have been a bit of a scary time if when you are, you know, you're feeling like you don't have any options and you are really needing to get back to work 

[00:08:09] Becca: again.

I think it would've been scary if work hadn't been so supportive. So I work with people who, a range of people, people who are parents at a very similar stage to me, people with older children and people who don't have children, but everyone was so supportive. So when I first went back and Rupert needed me to feed him at least once during my working day, I was able to change things around.

So I was working from home more. I would have some days where I went into the lab for half a day and then was at home for half a day and basically were able to arrange things so that I could always be around to feed Rupert when he needed. And that was really, really great for me being able to carry on feeding and feel a bit more comfortable about leaving Rupert.

And then when my husband's shared parental leave ended and Rupert started at nursery, the nursery also let me go into feed Rupert once a day. And so I've always been able to feed him whatever it feels like he really needs some, needs a feed, and gradually more suddenly than I thought. We've now gotten to the point where I feed him just before and after nursery, and that's fine.

[00:09:12] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:09:12] Becca: We got to a point where I was feeding him kind of after his nap and after he'd had something to eat at nursery and then that was starting to get to be half past three, four o'clock. And then I was picking him up at half past five. And so it kind of felt like we could just get rid of that feed 

[00:09:26] Emma Pickett: that, that the day when you didn't go in and you decided not to go in, was that a hard decision to make?

Did that feel weird or It just seemed really obvious that's what you would do? 

[00:09:34] Becca: The first couple of times that he went without the feed in the middle of the day, I was really pleased because I was starting to find it a bit hard to schedule everything around having to go into the nursery and because he just dropped down to a nap, it was trying to predict when he might wake up from his nap.

Um, and I'd try and go into feed around about then. So kind of not having to juggle that and fit that round the rest of my day was quite nice. And it also felt like I was opening up a bit more of an option to be able to leave him for a full day with my husband or with his grandparents. And then about a week.

Two weeks later, I started to get really sad about not feeding him at lunchtime. And I think as with a lot of nurseries, we've got an app where they say how, how well he's been feeding or sleeping. And I think maybe he didn't have a great nap or he didn't eat a lot. And I was like, well, I'm gonna go and feed him.

Um, so there were a couple of days where I was like, no, I really want to go in and see him in the middle of the day. But now I think we're a bit more consistently just he's having the whole day without to feed. 

[00:10:33] Emma Pickett: I wonder whether that was your body just missing that, that oxytocin and missing that connection and um, would, you know, we sometimes use the term weaning blues, which isn't a very hurtful term, but some people do notice when they suddenly have longer blocks without feeding and their body notices that you mentioned a lab.

Yes. Does that mean you've got a white coat and you've got pipes and you are moving things around and, and you're not dealing with like toxic substances or you haven't had any complications with that? What kind of work are you doing? 

[00:11:01] Becca: Uh, so I, um, design, build and test satellites. So Cool. Pipe. That's so cool.

Uh, pipes 

[00:11:08] Emma Pickett: know white coats, pipes. Yes. Satellites and pipettes. I can see that. Doesn't really work. Okay. So you've got white coats on 'cause you can't contaminate the satellites and you've got like, yeah. Yeah. Wow. That's so cool. Okay. You, you're much, much cooler than me. I'm very impressed. Okay, so let's go back to the beginning.

So thank you very much for filling us in on life with 16 month old Rupert and you're going back to work experience. I really appreciate that. As you know, I talk a lot about toddlers and older and older nurse lings and I just think it's really helpful for people to hear someone else's life. But obviously the focus of this conversation is going to be the tough time at the start.

So yeah. You were pregnant. Mm-hmm. What did you know about breastfeeding before you had Rupert? 

[00:11:47] Becca: So I thought I was kind of pretty well informed before I had Reaper, and my pregnancy was really straightforward, which I think just made it even more of a shock when the breastfeeding wasn't, this is probably gonna make everyone hate me.

I didn't, it wasn't hard for us to get pregnant. I didn't really have that much pregnancy sickness. We had maybe two or three times where I got worried about VA fetal movements and went in for an extra check. And then Rupert was born three days early and it was natural birth with, I had a tens machine and I had gas and air, and that was it.

Okay, 

[00:12:24] Emma Pickett: no one's gonna hate you, Becca. We're okay. We're not hating you. We are pleased for you. And we know that things didn't go necessarily super, super easy from then on. So, but as actually it's, it's just an interesting example of how someone can have an ideal birth and pregnancy. And that doesn't mean breastfeeding's going to be super easy.

So you, did you do pregnancy classes that talked about breastfeeding preparation? What was your antenatal education like? 

[00:12:47] Becca: Yeah, so I'd read a couple of books, um, which I, I won't sort of mention them by name. Um, they were helpful in general for preparing me to, for some aspects of parenting. Um, and they talked about both breastfeeding and formula feeding as being options.

I was pretty adamant that I wanted to breastfeed because um, my mom actually breastfeed fed me and my sisters until, I dunno. This is another conversation that I had a bit on this podcast. Mom says I self weaned when I was about three. 

[00:13:20] Emma Pickett: Wow. Cool. That's not something we come across very often in the uk. So, three cheers for your mom.

And just out of curiosity, do you have any memories of breastfeeding at all? Do you have any memories of seeing your sisters breastfeed? 

[00:13:32] Becca: Yeah, so I remember my mum feeding both of my sisters to sleep. And I just remember, I don't remember breastfeeding directly. I just remember it feeling really nice. I remember being sort of warm and cuddled and having milk and that just making me feel really happy and safe.

Um, so it's a feeling rather than a memory. 

[00:13:51] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you don't have a particular location in mind. You don't have a particular sort of photographic image in your head. You've just got this sort of sensation, this positive sensation? No. 

[00:13:59] Becca: Wow. Okay. And so I think that was quite a strong factor of me wanting to breastfeed my baby.

[00:14:04] Emma Pickett: Okay. So the books you've mentioned, no names mentioned, doesn't sound like they were particularly breastfeeding focused necessarily, or you by the fact the fact that you're not selling them suggests that you didn't necessarily feel they were super helpful in your, in your preparation. No, 

[00:14:21] Becca: they were great for, great for other things, but I think they were trying to balance breastfeeding and formula feeding, which is a very honorable thing to do.

But it's, I think it meant that some of the challenges of both were misrepresented. 

[00:14:33] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. 

[00:14:34] Becca: Um, I wouldn't necessarily recommend them. I did do a couple of, or my partner and I did a couple of NCT courses as part of preparing mm-hmm. For becoming parents. So we did an online, entirely online course, which our hospital offered for free.

And then we did actually pay for a in-person course, but for both of those courses, the feeding part of the course was online. And so it was helpful in some ways. I learned about, um, harvesting colostrum also about the fact that when the baby was born would have to feed reasonably frequently to eventually stimulate milk production.

So I did know some of the things about breastfeeding, and they also did say, if you have any challenges, you can come back to us. You can go and see an I-V-C-L-C. So I did kind of know a little bit about some of the support available, but I think the thing I was really missing and that I have now is having that support network of people you can go to and ask questions or p people who will sort of advise you on next steps or just watch a feed and, yeah.

[00:15:39] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you mean in terms of like local peer support, local breastfeeding counselors, that was missing completely. 

[00:15:46] Becca: Yeah, that was, yeah. And also just how to find a network and the fact you would need a network was kind of not really covered. 

[00:15:53] Emma Pickett: So you've, you've given birth, tell us about those first kind of 24 hours and those early days.

[00:15:57] Becca: When I first gave birth, this was one of the kind of misconceptions maybe that I'd picked up from the NCT education. I thought the really important thing was getting that first feed, and if you got the first feed in and your baby was able to latch on and feed effectively, then that was it. You were happy you were breastfeeding.

That was great. And that for as far as I, I had picked up from my breastfeeding education, the only problem you would've from then on. Is if you didn't produce enough milk. And I really wasn't aware of quite how many other problems you might have in breastfeeding. So when Rupert was born, I did have to have a little bit of, um, I had to have some stitches.

And so while they were doing that, I was holding him skin to skin, but I had wasn't feeding him. And once that was all sorted out, they asked if I wanted to try breastfeeding. And they said yes. The midwife helped meet to latch in for that first feed. Now, I've heard other people talk about this. She was maybe a little bit forceful in getting him to latch on.

And she said, because he was little, he would need quite a lot of like encouragement to latch on, but he latched on and, and he said, okay. And then he was born sort of later on in the evening. So by the time we got to the ward, it was quite late at night and my husband had to leave. And so it was me and Rupert and.

I read and been told in the NCT classes that that first night you are tired. The baby's tired, so they will just sleep for quite a while. But that really wasn't what was happening for us. Every time I tried to put, we put down in the cot, he woke up immediately and was like, no, what is this? 

[00:17:32] Emma Pickett: Oh, 

[00:17:32] Becca: I want another cuddle.

Thank you. Yeah. 

[00:17:34] Emma Pickett: I mean, they're not, they're not wrong. We often do find that babies will have that longer block of sleep initially, but I guess not everybody, not every baby. And if you were expecting that, if you thought that was the rule, if you thought that was universal, that must have been a bit of a shock, especially if you're on your own.

So you are not getting any sleep. He's not getting any sleep. How are those feeds going through that first night? 

[00:17:56] Becca: So I was really struggling to latch him. So the NCT course that I did covered all of the different feeding positions, but it didn't really mention laid back feeding. So I was trying sort of cradle, cross cradle rugby hold, trying to get him to latch a way that was comfortable for me, but nothing was really helping.

He would latch on and he would feed, but it was a little bit uncomfortable for me. 

[00:18:16] Emma Pickett: Do you mean nipple uncomfortable or back and shoulders? Uncomfortable on your nipple. Okay. 

[00:18:21] Becca: No nipple uncomfortable. 

[00:18:22] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting hearing you mention that even just 16 months ago people weren't talking about laid back feeding.

I mean, wow. I mean that's, I would would just say that the NCT, you know, there are lots of different breastfeeding counselors around the country and courses are very different. Um, although there are universal, you know, learning objectives, you will get a different slant depending on who your breastfeeding counselor that runs that training is.

But laid back feeding, I'm guessing you've come to discover it because you mentioned it there. Laid back feeding is such a good early breastfeeding position. It is such, yeah, it really should be the default. I think if someone can manage it physically, it really should be the default. I have another episode on breastfeeding positions with, um, the lovely Maddie, who is, um, a very, very experienced breastfeeding counselor and a doula.

And I did some training with her a couple of years ago, just a whole day, literally on laid back feeding, just to kind of reinforce the concept. And she is such a proponent of laid back feeding, and the research is really pointing to it now, that that is what babies are wired to do and it is what we are wired to do.

And when we sit upright and we do all these cross cradle positions and think that's what breastfeeding should be like, we're actually making life a little bit harder for ourselves because we have to work extra hard to help babies to feel secure and anchored. So when you're trying to latch Rupert on in these positions and you say things are painful, looking back, do you have a sense of why that was?

Did he maybe not have a big enough gap what was actually happening? Can you, can you, I it must, it must have been a bit of a blur, so you may not be able to tell, but do you have a sense what was going on? 

[00:19:51] Becca: We'll come back to this maybe a bit more later, but I think there wasn't one thing that was making feeling difficult for Reaper tonight.

I think it was a big mix of lots and lots of different things, which meant that as partly because of that, and partly because a lot of the time there was just no magic thing that fixes everything. We tried several things and there was no one thing that fixed everything. So he had a slight tongue tie, posterior tongue tie rather than anything else.

I think he maybe had a high palette. My nipples are maybe slightly inverted. We were trying a feeding position that wasn't, um, that was difficult for him as a tiny baby to kind of latch on and get a deep, a deep latch. Um, yeah, so there were lots of things that were not quite right, and that meant that even by the morning of that first, even after that first night, my nipples were already starting to get sore and maybe a bit cracked.

[00:20:42] Emma Pickett: Okay. Who mentioned the Tongue T tie for with, for you that, who was the first person to talk about Tongue T Tie and, and did you see anyone else about that? 

[00:20:49] Becca: One of the great things we did get outta the NCT course was a WhatsApp group, which was the seven mums. So that was a really great resource for us to be able to message and say, Hey, I'm having this problem.

Anyone got any recommendations? So it felt like every couple of days in that first few weeks, someone was messaging saying, oh my gosh, I just found out that my baby has a tongue tie as well. And in the end, six of the seven babies had some kind of tongue tie diagnosed. 

[00:21:19] Emma Pickett: That's a lot. I mean, if I was being a skeptical person, I would wonder if that really is, I mean, six outta seven.

I know I'm talking to a scientist here, but that, that is an extraordinarily high number. I wonder what other kinds of breastfeeding support they were getting and what else was happening there. I we've got this funny situation with tongue Thai, which I'm sure you, you know, is we've got over-diagnosis, but we've also got under-diagnosis.

So we've got over-diagnosis because people aren't getting actual lactation support and, and everything's being hooked onto the tongue tie. And we've also got under-diagnosis where, you know, people aren't getting the right support needed when there is a tongue tie. Um, so you, from that group were getting some ideas about who you could see and who could help you with the diagnosis and, and, and did you actually see someone in person then?

[00:22:05] Becca: Yeah, I'll talk about seeing someone first and then I'll talk about my, my thoughts when we first done. Okay. One of the things that we did to try and help with feeding was. I tried several other things, and one of the things that been mentioned was to see an I-B-C-L-C, so I looked up local IBCLCs, and by this point feeding was painful and I was really, really struggling mentally, physically, and I just wanted someone who could fix it.

So I pretty much filtered on who could give me an appointment this soon. And the I-B-C-L-C-I saw was someone who other people in the NCT group had seen. And so she came to our house and basically she saw how badly my nipples were damaged. And she made a comment about that being the worst nipple damage she'd ever seen.

Oh golly. And then she stuck her finger in rip it's mouth and said he definitely had a tongue tie. Now, I don't want to come across as being super negative about this A, B, CRC because I think there are some people in life you meet and you are never going to necessarily click. And I think pretty much as soon as we, she walked through the door and started, um, I started talking to her, it became clear that we were not people who were going to get on.

Okay. And so I think for a different mother who was keen to maybe not breastfeed, um, having been through quite a difficult experience and had have, and who had really damaged nipples. Her advice would've been the right advice, but for me it really wasn't. 

[00:23:30] Emma Pickett: Can I just ask you about that, that statement? This is the most damaged nipple I've ever seen.

I mean, for some people that would be really validating. That would be, yeah. God, thank you for acknowledging how serious this is. Thank you for seeing how much pain I'm in. For someone else, that would be disheartening. Scary, you know, unhelpful. The way you phrased that makes me think that maybe you're in the latter.

That wasn't something that that helped you. 

[00:23:54] Becca: Yeah, it just made me think that I'd really done so many things wrong to get to this point, and I was really going to have problems and 

[00:24:00] Emma Pickett: yeah, 

[00:24:01] Becca: healing from it. 

[00:24:02] Emma Pickett: So you had both nipples damaged and obviously from what you're describing, cracked. Scabs bleeding. Yeah.

Bits of nipple. Not there. I'm guessing, you know, not just sort of first degree damage. Had you been doing anything to sort of, had you been using creams or nipple shields or anything prior to meeting the lactation consultant? 

[00:24:25] Becca: Yeah, so the support I got in the first few days, weeks was really fragmented. So there were some midwives who said, I'll use nipple shields.

There were some midwives who said use silver cups. There were some midwives who said, don't use nipple shields. There was one midwife I found who was really helpful, and her daughter was 13 months old and she was just returning to work after maternity leave, and so she was able to recommend, she recommended sideline feeding.

And she recommended a type of nipple cream that didn't have lamb linen. Okay. And I found both of those really helpful. But by this point I was sort of trying lots of different things, basically throwing everything at it to see what would work. 

[00:25:03] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And you were hoping, presumably, that this I-B-S-L-C would help you, you know, get through all that mess and find the answer.

And it doesn't sound like that necessarily was what happened, but she said that Rupert had a tongue tie. Yes. So what happened with the tongue tie? Did you have a procedure done? What did you decide to do? What do, tell me about what your thoughts were about his tongue tie. 

[00:25:21] Becca: I don't know. Even then, I think maybe I was surprised that she was able to tell, he had a tongue tie so quickly because she was like, oh yeah, no, definitely a tongue to, that's definitely what's causing a lot of these problems.

But at that point, I was really desperate to get everything fixed. My husband was going back to work and thinking two days at that point. Um, so this was the Monday he went back to work on the Wednesday. And so again, I was just looking for someone who could get the tongue pain sorted as quickly as possible.

And so we went to see a tongue pain clinic that was about an hour's drive away for us, which was the longest drive we'd ever done with Ruit. Um, so we sort of found a park halfway and stopped off to take him out of the car seat. And, 

[00:25:59] Emma Pickett: and every time you're feeding urine, urine agony at this point. Yeah. And had you tried bottles or any other kind of getting milk into a different way?

Not at this point. Okay. Wow. So you really are in agony every single time, which is And how old is he when you were doing this journey? 

[00:26:14] Becca: This was when he was two weeks. 

[00:26:15] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:26:16] Becca: One of the things the I-B-C-L-C did was she left a pump with us. So I said at that point I was really keen to carry on breastfeeding and not to pump and feed, but she left the pump and she said, you've got it if you need it, and you can try just pumping so that he can have a bottle.

[00:26:31] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:26:32] Becca: I, now, in hindsight I kind of understand, I think she was, she, she, her specialism is not necessarily. Feeding and supporting people to carry on breastfeeding. I think she would've been a really good A, B, CL, ct C if I was looking to maybe switch to pumping or to moving away from breastfeeding. And I know other people find are helpful for that.

[00:26:49] Emma Pickett: Okay. That's interesting. I know I've not come across that as a specialist in for I-B-C-L-C, but it takes, it takes all sort sorts. Um, so you've, you've done your hours drive, you're in the tongue Thai clinic. What happens? 

[00:27:00] Becca: The person who was doing the procedure assessed bit and she said he had a very slight positive, well, not very slight, she said he had a poster tongue tie and so she made it clear that it wasn't something that definitely needed treating.

But I think both my husband and I were kind of, from all of the information we've been given, we've been told this was definitely the thing that was causing all of our problems. And so we're like, no, we'd like it to be treated. Um, so she was able to, she divided the tongue tie and we put fed straight after, and I know there are some people for whom that would've been the magic solution and, um, they would've left and fed perfectly.

Um, we put Latch on the Fed, but it really didn't feel that different. Yeah. 

[00:27:38] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, my experience, I'm not a tongue tie specialist, but my experience in having worked with families is that that's quite common for people not to feel that immediate change, particularly with a more posterior tie. You know, that's a little muscle that's not been working.

It's not being able to do its job. Takes a bit of time to relearn. And I know Sarah Oakley, who I talked to about tongue tie, would, would also say we wouldn't necessarily expect that that automatic shift it can take, you know, a little while before we see a difference, but were you sort of holding out for the, it's all better now kind of experience.

And that must have been really disheartening when that's what you were hoping for and it didn't happen. So you've now got an hour's journey back with a baby that's just had the procedure done. You haven't had your, your dreams realized. How are you feeling at this point? Pretty deflated 

[00:28:26] Becca: on that Tuesday evening after we'd had the tongue type procedure done.

And it hadn't really worked. I was really, really struggling with how painful it was and I was like, you know what? I'm just going to try pumping. So that was kind of the point where we switched to me pumping pretty much exclusively for the next however long. 

[00:28:46] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:28:47] Becca: Um, so I pumped since my husband had re put the bottle and for the first couple of days in particular, I was really particular about someone who wasn't me giving at the bottle because I'd read somewhere that if you were breastfeeding it was not a good idea to be also giving your baby the bottle, um, good for someone else to do.

[00:29:06] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, looking back at that piece of information, how do you feel about that now? 

[00:29:10] Becca: In the end, I was pumping for such a long time that it was not possible for someone else to always be there to give a bottle. 

[00:29:17] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, I think if you are exclusively bottle feeding. I'm not sure that would necessarily apply.

I think we would want you to have feeding time as a way to connect to your baby. And especially when little babies aren't awake very much, their feeding time is often the only time they are awake. So having that cuddly feeding time and that connection and, and doing kind of responsive bottle feeding and bottle feeding, skin to skin is, is part of your connection with your baby.

I wonder whether that advice is more applied to the occasional bottle, especially if a baby doesn't take it very happily. Um, sometimes that's where we see that piece of information being given, but I'm not sure I would want anyone to take that away as a general piece of advice about bottle feeding. 

[00:29:57] Becca: No, and I don't think I'd give it to anyone, um, if they were in the position of having to pump because it added just another layer of complexity and it meant that no one was getting off sleep because I was having to wake up to pump and my husband was having to wake up to give, we put a bottle.

So, 

[00:30:10] Emma Pickett: yeah. So it's interesting imagining what your mindset was in that moment. You, you were hoping the tongue tie was gonna sort things out. It hadn't. And you'd previously been so determined to breastfeed that something in you kind of kind of broke and said, I can't face this anymore. I'm going to pump.

Yeah. Or did you have in mind I'm gonna pump for 48 hours, I'm gonna pump for three days. Did you have any goals or you just thought, I can't breastfeed? 

[00:30:35] Becca: Um, I think at that point I thought that I would just be able to pump for maybe 48 hours maybe a week. And then that would allow all of the nipple damage to heal.

And I could kind of go back to trying to sort out the breastfeeding. But that was not the case. It took a really, really long time for the nipple damage to heal. 

[00:30:53] Emma Pickett: Okay. And I mean, that's a testament to how much damage there must have been and the layer, 'cause normally nipple damage does heal relatively quickly in that period of our lives.

Our, you know, our bodies are whizzing through the healing process, but you know, obviously if you are very, very damaged, it's taking a long time. Did you have, um, any support around the pumping and using, getting the right size on the flanges or anything around that? Were you happy that you had the right kit?

No, not at all. Um, I 

[00:31:20] Becca: think now with a 60 month old, I feel like I have kind of cracked breastfeeding as much as it possible for me to crack it. I don't really feel like I ever got to a point where I was confident pumping. The whole time I was pumping, I was using a hospital. Grade pump, um, thecal? Mm-hmm.

I'm not sure. Thes Hospital. Hospital grade? No. 

[00:31:45] Emma Pickett: So the Caram is the, um, Ardo hospital grade and the caram is a Okay. Whooping grade. Chunky thing. And, and is the one that you get rented you can rent or that you're in hospitals? The Calypso is a lovely little pump, but I'm not sure if we just, we would describe it as hospital grade.

[00:31:59] Becca: Okay. Feel free to cut that bit out. No, let's keep it in. I think it's probably a good testament to how know about Well, I was gonna say, if you 

[00:32:05] Emma Pickett: don't mind, I think it's actually quite helpful to keep that in because I think it represents what kind of support you were getting and the gaps in the support you were getting.

I think that's valid if you were a comfortable to keep that in. Yeah. So, so you were pumping, hoping to heal. Did you get any information around. The healing process. I mean things like moist wound healing or using dressings or how to reduce the risk of infection, or you literally just using this cream someone gave you and making up as you go along.

[00:32:33] Becca: Yeah. That second, um, I did go and see a gp, several GPS several times to try and get a bit of support on how slowly everything was healing. And I saw a fantastic GP again when I theme her. She also had a young child and had been breastfeeding and she was the one who recommended moist wound healing. And uh, is it flam gel, the dressing brand.

[00:32:54] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:32:55] Becca: I don't remember the dressing brand, but there's a particular type of dressing which has, um, kind of cream, um, integrated into it. 

[00:33:01] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:33:02] Becca: And that was really good for helping with both the pain relief and the healing. 

[00:33:06] Emma Pickett: It's interesting how both the health professionals you're mentioning have had babies themselves.

That's a bit of a, a clue as to how that often transforms someone's approach to breastfeeding support and, and that the sort of empathy and how that switches somebody on to connecting to new moms. Not that we're wanting everyone to go off and have babies just for the the sake of that, but it does sort of suggest that there are maybe gaps going on elsewhere.

I want to tell you about my brand new book called The Story of Jesse's Milk Keys. It's a picture book for two to six year olds, and I wanted to write a book that was about weaning, but also not about weaning, because breastfeeding journeys end in all sorts of different ways. So Jesse's story is presented as having three possible endings.

In one ending, his mom is pregnant and Jesse's going to share his milk with a new baby. In the second, his mom is getting really tired and it's time for some mother led weaning. And in the third, we see a self weaning journey as Jesse's attachment to breastfeeding gradually fades. There are beautiful illustrations by the very talented Jojo Ford, and the feedback from parents so far has been so lovely and touching and I'm really excited to share the book with you.

If you're interested in my other books for Older Children, I have the Breast book, which is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And I also have two books about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding for a 10% discount on the last two.

Go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code. Mm PE 10 Makes milk picket Emma 10. In this period when you're just pumping, you've talked about how you didn't really feel you got to grips of pumping, but you were pumping for a long time. I mean, how long did you only pump 

[00:34:57] Becca: in the end? I pumped from memory.

It was about two weeks old when he was about six or seven weeks old. 

[00:35:01] Emma Pickett: Okay. So four or five weeks. That's a long time to do something that you didn't feel was going brilliantly well. And how many days, tell me about your typical day of pumping. What was kind of your pumping regime? 

[00:35:14] Becca: So I was pretty strict on trying to pump every three hours.

Um, that three hours was measured from when I started pumping to when I next started pumping. And I, at the start I was doing that. In fact, I think at the start I was doing two and a half hours. So I'd start pumping and then start a time on my phone to count down the two and a half hours until I next needed to pump.

[00:35:36] Emma Pickett: Wow. For four or five weeks. That's, that's intense. And how are you getting on with your output? Were you able to meet his needs with Express Milk? 

[00:35:44] Becca: Almost all of the time when we were first switching over to pumping. I think because the feeding was so painful, I'd been delaying feeds and I actually got mastitis at that time as well.

And. To start off with, he was just guzzling as much as I could pump as soon as I pumped it. So we ended up giving him one bottle of formula so that I could get ahead and that's the only formula he's ever had. Okay. 

[00:36:06] Emma Pickett: Um, I mean it would be very logical based on the amount of damage that you had for his milk transfer to be compromised and for your milk supply to be impacted.

We haven't actually talked about how Rupert was doing. How was he doing in terms of his weight gain? Were there any concerns around weight gain or nappies? 

[00:36:22] Becca: We've been really lucky. He's never had any issues with weight gain. He was born on the 50th centile the whole time I was pumping and feeding him. He stayed on the 50th centile and then spoilers when we started breastfeeding, he shot up through the centiles and there was even a little period where he was above the 99th.

Wow. Okay. 

[00:36:41] Emma Pickett: Okay. So things are gonna end well. Good. I'm glad it's not gonna, this is not a sad end to this story, but to not breastfeed at all for sort of four to five weeks, that's. Did you have a moment where you thought, oh, I'm just gonna try and latch him on, or what was your, how were you making the decision to not breastfeed, if that makes sense?

What, what were you waiting for before you started breastfeeding again? 

[00:37:02] Becca: I think, yeah. So I was kind of waiting for a point where I could feed him and it wasn't painful. I was quite mindful that if I did feed him and it was painful, I was maybe undoing all of the healing I'd been doing. So it was quite particular about when I would try and match him on.

So I would try at the baby bar group and I would try whenever I saw someone about the breastfeeding. So this whole time I was trying to find people who could help me get back to breastfeeding and understand why it had been so painful me, for me at the start. So we did try and go back to our infant feeding team at the hospital where I given birth, but it was really hard to get hold of them.

So we had an appointment with the infant feeding team at the hospital. Um, but when we saw them, Rupert wasn't in a great mood and he was really struggling to latch and. Up until that point, if he'd had the opportunity to try and match on breastfeed, he'd been taking it. And I think that really threw me. I started to get a bit panicked because I thought that maybe he was developing a bottle preference.

And now looking back, I can see just, it was sort of the middle of the afternoon and he maybe hadn't had the greatest nap. And I then put him in the car and driven him to the hospital and he was a bit grumpy and he wasn't that keen on actually on a feeding. I think he just wanted to snuggle down and go to sleep.

But I think that really threw me. And so the support I got was that I needed to spend like three days doing skin to skin and trying to encourage him to latch. And I was really pissed out by that because at the what that point, one of the things that was helping was going to going out to baby groups and seeing other moms and kind of.

Going out for a walk and getting outside. And so the idea of spending three days indoors was not, not particularly appealing at that point. 

[00:38:36] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I can imagine. And especially if the only breastfeeding you had been doing was always with other people around. I mean, if you hadn't done any kind of alone breastfeeding at all, that's quite a scary jump to them being asked to just breastfeed alone for three days.

So, so during the time when you were pumping, then, when you went to the baby bar groups, you were latching him on in those groups? 

[00:38:58] Becca: Yeah. Um, a mixture of, sometimes I was latching him on with nipple shields. Um, I'd heard that they were really helpful for getting back to feeling. But actually for me, I think maybe because I have slightly the inverted nipples, which I've already realized sort of relatively recently, the nipple shields were actually causing quite a lot of damage, and so that wasn't working so well.

[00:39:18] Emma Pickett: So nipple shields are quite often used when people have inverted nipples and they shouldn't cause damage in themselves if you've got the right size and if someone is supporting you to use them properly. After this sort of four or five weeks, this person told you to have that intense feeding, three or four days, the experience it.

And you said that didn't feel like something you wanted to do. Did you do that? What? What happened? So by this point, 

[00:39:43] Becca: I was really, really struggling with all of the pumping. I didn't enjoy it and I didn't enjoy kind of feeling so constrained. I wanted to be able to feed responsibly and pumping was really not that.

Luckily. One of the things I did do in it four or five weeks, again through the NCT WhatsApp group, someone said she was gonna go to a group called Dig Cop Baby Monday, and this is when I really wanted to shout out because they were fantastic. So I went along and it's a toddler, it's a group that's just for babies.

Babies get kicked out, even if they're joining together. Rolling. That's when they have to leave. So that was a really nice opportunity because I wasn't worried about a toddler kind of poking Ruperts or anything. It was other moms and their tiny babies. And so I went along and one of the things they asked when I arrived was whether I wanted any feeding support.

And I was like, yes, yes, please, anything. So I spoke to one of their breastfeeding peer supporters then, and she said she wasn't really specialized in helping me get back to breastfeeding after pumping, but to come along on the Friday and see that I-B-C-L-C. So I was like, yeah, sure, I'll give that a go.

Unfortunately, went to, when I went along that Friday, the I-B-C-L-C was poorly and she wasn't there. And I think at that point I was really, really struggling. The people they had at the support session weren't able to help me that first time. And I think, yeah, at that point I was really considering whether this was something I wanted to carry on doing.

So I had a cry, I had a chat to my husband and we, I decided there were two more other things I wanted to try. Before kind of making a decision on whether or not to carry on breastfeeding. 

[00:41:15] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:41:15] Becca: And so I booked to see the I-B-C-L-C from the, the charity is called Oxford are breastfeeding support and I probably, I want to try and make sure that's mentioned, the show notes.

[00:41:25] Emma Pickett: Yes. They are a brilliant charity. I know spoilers, they were fantastic. Yeah, I know a couple of people involved with that, including Alana and, yeah, yeah, yeah. I do a project called Spectrum Lactation with Alana, who's, who's been involved with Oxfordshire breastfeeding support and I know what special work they do.

So, so did Cop Baby Monday as part of that Oxfordshire breastfeeding support. I think they might be two separate 

[00:41:46] Becca: charities, but there's definitely people who work on both. And I take called Baby Monday, I was signposted to the Oxford Breastfeeding support charity and I also decided I wanted to see an osteopath.

That was something that people in the NCT group had done. And so I was really lucky in that one of my mom's friends used to be an osteopath, so I asked her for recommendations and she recommended someone called Louise b. He was brilliant. So that next week on the Monday I went to see Louise and I hadn't realized before going, but she was like, she'd actually done some of the training be an I-V-C-C-L-C as well.

So although she wasn't an I-V-C-L-C, she had some of that feeding knowledge and so she was able to watch Rupert have a bottle feed and that was the first time anyone had properly like watched a feed start to stop with us. 

[00:42:32] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:42:32] Becca: And she was able to say that although maybe we had had some tongue tie issues in the past, she was able to see how well his kind of, um, feeding was, how good his feeding was looking, and that he was sucking and swallowing nicely.

And she gave me some things I could do to just relieve tension in his jaw. But she said overall he was feeling really well. She gave me a few pieces of advice on matching him on and that was really, really great. And then on the Tuesday we had an appointment with Lisa and. I don't want drink. Don't. That was basically the start of, 

[00:43:05] Emma Pickett: tell me what's happening that, are you starting to feel emotional or are you, do you need to blow your nose?

One of the two? No, no. Don't, don't hesitate to feel emotional. 'cause I can see this is really important to you. So you, are you having feelings about returning to breastfeeding and, and how special that was and how, how much that meant to you? And are you comfortable with people hearing that on the podcast?

'cause I think that is, that's really special for people to know that even when you've, you know, you've been very scientific and your scientific brain has described this whole history and now you're getting to the moment where Breastfeeding's happening again. And I can see this, this flood of emotions coming for you.

So did you have one particular encounter with somebody that turned things around or are you just reflecting on the, that whole process? 

[00:43:52] Becca: Both the osteopath appointment and, um, when I saw Lisa, the lactation consultant the next day, that was kind of what I think was started to turn around. So Lisa didn't really say anything brand new and revolutionary that changed my breastfeeding experience, but it was just the way she said it and the fact that she made me feel like I was supported, that it was possible for me to carry on breastfeeding.

[00:44:14] Emma Pickett: So it was an energy from her. From what you're saying, it wasn't necessarily this fact and put your hand here and hold Rupert like this. There was just an energy from her that gave you that sense of hope and yeah, I mean it's interesting what you had comparing that to the experience you had in the early days of seeing an I-P-C-L-C.

It's about connecting with people on an emotional level quite often, isn't it? Yeah. Um, 

[00:44:34] Becca: she was brilliant. So she said, again, laid by feeling was a really good idea, but she didn't say I had to sort of spend three days at home doing skin to skin to achieve it. She just said, you'll know, like pick a time when we put his sort of not super sleepy, not super emotional, like when he's calm and you are calm and it's, you've got lots of time, just give it a go.

See if it latch and go. And so actually that he, we tried previously, um, I tried to latch putt my being at home and it had gone really badly. He had got really distressed and my husband had ended up taking him away and calming him down and giving him a bottle. But that evening we were relaxing on the sofa and I was, I was like, no, I think, I think that was a good time.

And we putt latched on and fed on the side that was less damaged. And I was so, so pleased because it meant that he hadn't kind of forgotten how to latch on and feed or anything. And I could see that maybe there was a way back 

[00:45:29] Emma Pickett: from there. Oh, that sounds really special. So, so that feed was pain-free. 

[00:45:35] Becca: It wasn't pain-free, but it was less painful than it had been.

And my nipple didn't look like it was loads. Dam loads more damaged afterwards. Okay. 

[00:45:44] Emma Pickett: Okay. And you just suddenly saw the light at the end of the tunnel. You just suddenly felt that that things could change and things could be possible. And then from then on what happened? How much breastfeeding did you carry?

Did you carry on breastfeeding regularly after that? 

[00:45:58] Becca: So what was really helpful at that point? So I, I, my husband and I had a chat about going forward, what was gonna work for us and happily, that was pretty close to the start of the Christmas holidays. So it meant my husband's a teacher, he had two weeks off and he said, look, I'm happy to support you to carry on pumping over the Christmas holidays to give you more time to see how things are going so that you can make a decision about what the best way of feeding lip it's going to be for us going forward.

So for all of the Christmas holidays, I was pumping a lot of the time still because my nipples was still not fully healed, but my husband was doing all of the night feeds and that meant that I was getting more sleep. And I also felt like I had, I had someone to give Rupert to whenever I needed to pump.

And so that made things a lot easier and I was trying at that point, even if I pumped for all of the rest of the day, I was trying to feed Rupert just once on the less damaged side right before bed. And I was trying to make that something I did every day. And I think I probably was doing it every day.

And then I was also going along to Oxford strategic breastfeeding support, do weekly Friday sessions in, and I was going along to those. And those were fantastic for just making me feel like things were working and breastfeeding was working. And so after one of those sessions, I had a day where I was able to basically do, laid back feeding the whole day, which was lovely.

Um, we were, and I were in the safe of most of the day, and at the end of the day, I could see maybe my nipples were a tiny bit more damaged, so we decided to carry on pumping for a little bit longer. But then over the Christmas holidays, we had that lovely weekend between Christmas and New Year where no one really does anything.

And we were with my in-laws at the time and I was still pumping for a lot of the time. But I decided that what I would do is every morning I'd start off, start the day breastfeeding. I. And I knew that if at any point things were starting to get painful, I was starting to struggle. I could just switch to pumping and pump for the rest of the day.

And so we did that. And on the first day I maybe fed him, did like the first one or two feeds, and then switched him pumping. But by the time we came back home, I was feeding him pretty much all of the time during the day. 

[00:48:11] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:48:12] Becca: And this was great because I could just snuggle down on a chair in the living room and be there and lie back and feed reper, and that was really nice.

[00:48:22] Emma Pickett: You've described a scenario where not only did you have the support of people around you, no. No one was telling you, come on, this is silly. Stop this now. You know, we need to make a decision. People were giving you space. They were giving you space to take your time. And, and I think that's just a really nice, you know, version of how this could have gone.

I mean, if someone was putting pressure on you to decide, you know, will you just give up the breastfeeding? Now this is silly. That would've been awful. But also you were just allowing yourself to not necessarily have to decide and giving yourself that freedom. So it just very gradually and instinctively became something that you did more and more.

But you talk about, you know, being in pain still. How long was it before you were pretty much pain free? Consistently? 

[00:49:05] Becca: So one of the things that I picked up through the Oxford breastfeeding support sessions was that I had some vasospasms going on. Okay. Because. With all of the nipple trauma. I think there was, I, there's probably some complex medical explanation, but basically it was started to be, it was painful.

Not necessarily when I was feeding, but after a feed. Okay. They were able to support me in getting nefe prescribed. And so that was helping a lot with managing the pain. And I think for me, the key was that when I was feeding, it wasn't super, super painful like it had been in the early days and I couldn't see any more nipple damage.

And that was kind of the only thing I had to go off as to whether or not we were heading in the right direction. But I think for me, one of the things that showed that it was really getting better was that Rupert has offered me really fussy in the evenings. And so particularly when I wasn't breastfeeding, that was really hard to manage because my husband and I didn't really have anything in particular that we were found, we found would help.

We'd put him in the carrier and walk up and down and that was, that worked. But I now know that he was wanting to cluster feed, but if you're not breastfeeding, you can't cluster feed. Yeah. There was an evening where he was really fussy and I'd just breastfed him. And the idea of trying to feed him again, I was like, oh, I dunno if I want to.

But then I was like, no, I'm, I think that's what he needs. I'll, I'll give it a go. And so I took him back off my husband and fed him again and it, it felt like it was sustainable. It felt like, no, I could do this for longer if I needed. And yeah. Okay. Just kind of knowing that it was sustainable enough that I could carry on feeling.

That was really good. 

[00:50:39] Emma Pickett: So you were gradually pumping less and less. You were obviously getting the support of your husband and family. You were going to these groups and getting that, which sounds super important, that kind of community support. Tell me a little bit about what it means to go to a group. I know it sounds a bit cheesy, but if someone's never done it or they're not sure they want to do it, what does going to a group mean to you?

What's special about it? 

[00:51:00] Becca: Yeah, so I actually went to the first baby girl session when Rupert was only a week old, and it was fantastic. It's such a lovely atmosphere. The people that are all so helpful. And you just get to be around other moms who are breastfeeding and that kind of makes you feel like, it makes you feel more confident and they bring you tea and cakes while you're feeding and they, there's beanbags for you to sit on.

And now I know kind of part of the reason that I found feeding easier when I was there was that when you're sitting in the beanbag, you kind of naturally leaning back a little bit and so it's starting to look a little bit like more like laid back feeding and say it's easier to get a nice latch. I think for me it was being in a set setting, it kind of felt safe to breastfeed, but also to have problems breastfeeding.

And I also just really liked knowing that other people having the same challenges as me. That sounds a bit, whatever. I haven't quite phrase that right. It doesn't make you're a 

[00:51:56] Emma Pickett: psychopath. Cca, it's okay. It's, it's, uh, you, it's, that's normal, I think to to know you're not alone and other people are struggling too.

That's okay. 

[00:52:04] Becca: Um, but it was also, particularly at the baby bar, there were mums who were coming along who are breastfeeding really happily. And so just being able to see people there who were breastfeeding and it was fine and it was working and they'd got through all of their problems, that was really, really inspirational to be able to see it working for people.

And so that gave me something to kind of hold onto and that's part of my reason for, to, to speak on this podcast, to kind of give people the message that it is possible to get through all of this and to have something to look to kind of look forward to. 

[00:52:37] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a really good reminder.

'cause I quite often think breastfeeding groups, we think that they're just for the problems. And actually sometimes we even get into settings where, you know, you make an appointment to talk to someone because you're struggling and you go away again. But actually having those social groups are really important and being able to see the success stories and sit alongside the success stories is really valuable.

So we really do want those, those mixed groups to be available. When was the last time you pumped? 

[00:53:05] Becca: I have an app that I use, um, to check certain things so I can even tell you the exact number of days. So I pumped a little bit when I first started back at work, but as I said, it wasn't really working for the mule bit.

So, um, the last time I pumped was 287 days ago, 

[00:53:20] Emma Pickett: 287 days ago. So how old was he then? What, seven, eight months or something like that? Yeah, 

[00:53:25] Becca: that's when I first, when, when I first 

[00:53:26] Emma Pickett: went back to work. Okay. And did you burn the pump? No. I'm just kidding. You obviously somebody give it to you. So you didn't, um, so when you, the very beginning when we were talking about going back to work, you kind of, your eyebrows kind of quivered when I talked about pumping, which gave me the impression that you don't love for your pump.

You don't necessarily have positive associations with it. Tell me what's going on with your relationship with, with pumping. 

[00:53:49] Becca: I think I wasn't super excited about having to pump again because breastfeeding is just so much nicer. I know some people when they pump, they have like. They take it as kind of relaxed time and watch something nice on their phone or have some make it relaxing.

But particularly in those first few weeks, I didn't really have that as a possibility because I was parenting Rupert and my husband was back at work, so I had to try and look after a three week old baby and pump at the same time 

[00:54:22] Emma Pickett: for anyone who's doing that. What was, what were you physically doing? I mean, was he on your lap?

Was he in a carrier? How were you managing those moments? 

[00:54:30] Becca: A mixture. Um, a lot of the time I would feed him a bottle when I was pumping because that was a good way of keeping him kind of happy. 

[00:54:38] Emma Pickett: Okay. So were you hands free pumping? I, I want you to literally paint, paint the scene for me. No, 

[00:54:42] Becca: I had a hands free pumping well, which was really good, so I kind of had put on my lap when I was getting the pump set up, but because the pump kind of makes it really hard to cuddle him.

I would kind of have him set on my knee and be feeding him a bottle or sometimes he'd be laying down on his mat, but he didn't like being put down very much, so it was quite hard to kind of juggle the baby in the pump. I think that was the other thing I quite liked about going to support groups because a lot of the time someone there would hold, but while I was pumping and that made, that made it so much easier.

[00:55:10] Emma Pickett: Yeah, so it's great to hear that you're pumping in the groups. I think lots of people don't think that's an option, but it absolutely is to be able to pump in those settings as well. Daft question, but let's just get down to the kind of finicky bit. Do you have a sense of what was causing all that damage at the beginning?

You touched on how you had in slightly inverted nipples and there was a tongue tie and there was a palate issue. Do you think that was, what was causing that, that significant damage, or was there something going on with latching that hadn't, you hadn't quite connected with as well? We haven't talked very much about actual latching.

What was, if you were to go back, if you had a little time machine and we whizzed you back to kind of week two, what would you want to be doing differently? 

[00:55:51] Becca: I think, I haven't really mentioned it, but when it, from the point we went back to feeding, we were doing laid back feeding and that was so good for us.

Um, it meant that we were getting a much deeper latch and it felt much more comfortable. 

[00:56:04] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:56:05] Becca: So I think he had a quite, quite a shallow latch in those first few days because I was trying to do all of the kind of really parent led breastfeeding positions, whereas as soon as we switched to a much more child led one.

[00:56:14] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:56:15] Becca: That was much better for us. 

[00:56:16] Emma Pickett: And with the high palette, if there was any tongue function stuff with inverted nipples, those parent led upright positions are even more challenging to get those deeper latches. Whereas when you're leaning back and babies literally pushed on you in a, in a lovely sense and they've got that lovely, big, deep mouth, well it makes life so much easier.

So the, what positions do you use now with Rupert? Are you still doing layback feeding at 16 months? 

[00:56:38] Becca: Not really, but I think I. I don't think the way we feed can necessarily, it's not sort of one of the textbook breastfeeding positions anymore. It's not even laid back feeding. He kind of just latches on in whatever position I'm in.

And I think people who are breastfeeding orders who recognize this wiggle, wiggles all over the place sticks fingers in my face. 

[00:56:59] Emma Pickett: Oh yes. Gymnastics sometimes people call it. Yes, very much. And had, did you have any other periods of damage? So once you've healed, once you had that healing time, those kind of four to five weeks, did you ever have more damage after that?

[00:57:13] Becca: I think there was maybe one point where I got a little cut on a nipple. I think it was after he had his first teeth, but not long after. So I think maybe a teeth just grazed along my nipple and I, that caused me to panic quite a bit because I, I got quite a bit of a flashback to the early days where it being really painful and my nipples were just getting more and more damaged.

But I think that was where having the knowledge I gained from the feeding support groups was really helpful. I think one of the things I picked up was. All I could do at any one point was just try and get the best search possible for that feed and relapse if it wasn't working. So that was just what I did every time I fed to him, I just reminded myself what I'm trying to do is get the best search I can and if it does, if it's not working, I can always take him off of reaction.

[00:57:56] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:57:57] Becca: Um, and that healed 

[00:57:57] Emma Pickett: really quickly. Okay. So your story is one of finding the right support at the right time and very much perseverance and, you know, an amazing story of somebody who's absolutely determined to, to get things working and and to push through. What would you say to yourself if you could talk to yourself in those early weeks?

What would you want to say to her? Um, 

[00:58:23] Becca: I think I would just want to sign, paste myself towards all of the things that I know now. Were really helpful and important and I think also sign paste towards the best health social media that I found that are really helpful. So obviously your account's fantastic.

I also follow Lucy Weber and Lindsay Hway, and I think just pointing myself towards that community of people who are talking about breastfeeding, but um, giving really helpful and evidence-based advice early on would've been really important. 

[00:59:00] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I'm big fans of Lucy and Lindsay, uh, Catherine Staggs, another shoutout, I think someone who's really practical and evidence-based and, and you know, just straightforward.

So let's, let's make sure we really highlight those resources that you found out for then. So Oxford to breastfeeding support, obviously that's a local organization to people who have in Oxfordshire, but I'm hoping that most people in the UK would have an equivalent organization or something similar. Um, we'll make sure we put them in the show notes and, and did.

Caught Baby Monday and Baby Bar Wallingford. Um, yeah. Any other resources that you really found helpful? 

[00:59:32] Becca: I think those are the key ones for me. 

[00:59:33] Emma Pickett: Okay. And I'm just trying to imagine what life must have been like for your husband through this. Um, and although he hasn't been the focus of this conversation, he's obviously watched you go through all this and watched you struggle.

I mean, have you reflected back on that or talked to him subsequently? How does he feel about breastfeeding now? Um, you know, what was he going through in those weeks, do you think? 

[00:59:57] Becca: So in the, in the early, we have spoken about it since, um, in the early weeks he found it really hard because I was in so much pain.

So I actually got my husband to listen to the episode he did with Scott May a few weeks back. And I think he found that really helpful and he could definitely relate to. I think there was something that was mentioned about sometimes if your partner's in pain and it's because they're breastfeeding, it's really easy to see breastfeeding as being the problem, but actually taking away the breastfeeding won't fix the problem.

And I think he definitely. Can see that at the time that I was in so much pain, he wanted the pain to go away, but he didn't necessarily want the breastfeeding to go away. He just wanted to be able to stop the pain and to make me feel happy again. 

[01:00:37] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. And obviously taking the breastfeeding away would've caused different pain that could have been more painful in some ways.

So, yeah, and I think it's a very natural response to not want your partner to be struggling, but being able to step back and help find solutions without taking away the breastfeeding is the key, isn't it? 

[01:00:54] Becca: Yeah. And he was fantastic with all of that. And I think now he and I were both saying last night that we didn't expect me to still be feeding at 16 months, but it's what's working for both of us.

And it's not necessarily a bad thing, it's just not what either has expected. 

[01:01:10] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Do you have any particular ideas about how things are gonna go with your breastfeeding? Any particular goals? Are you just gonna enjoying where you are? 

[01:01:17] Becca: Not necessarily. I think I. Uh, if at any point over the next few months or years Rupert decides to bring breastfeeding to a place himself, I think that's definitely something I will do.

I would be sad about it. Otherwise, I think when we get to two years, I currently haven't had a period since 2023 and I would like Rupert to have a sibling at some point in the future. So if I still don't have, if my period still haven't come back by the time he's two years old, I think we might try and reduce the number of times he's breastfeeding.

I don't think we need to necessarily wean entirely. I listened to your episode on, uh, breastfeeding fertility, which is really helpful. So I know there's options there for, um, spacing out the length of time between feeds and. Yeah. Getting my period to attend through that. 

[01:02:03] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And the idea of breastfeeding in the future, does that feel exciting or scary?

Where are you on on that? I think breastfeeding Rupert 

[01:02:10] Becca: in the future, I'm absolutely fine with. The thing I am scared about is if I have another child and I'm trying to breastfeed them, that some of the same issues might come up again. But then I have to remind myself when I get scared about that, that I'd have so much more knowledge and I have such a great support at work now that it won't be the same.

[01:02:30] Emma Pickett: No, it definitely works. And 

[01:02:32] Becca: it might be challenging in different ways, but I've got hopefully the basis to find information to get me through that. 

[01:02:37] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for your time today, Becca. I really, really appreciate it. And um, yeah, if someone else is in that very, very painful, difficult place, I hope they get inspiration from you and, and also just that message that you don't have to.

Drop pumping immediately. You can take your time, take your time to go back to exclusive breastfeeding and, and just really make sure you build up your support network. Um, that's really, really valuable information. Thank you so much.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well, get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.