Louise's story - a crisis of confidence second time around

My guest this week is Dr. Louise Goldsmith, a urologist and aspiring IBCLC from North London. Louise successfully breastfed her first daughter but was taken aback when that previous history didn’t protect her from a crisis of confidence second time around.

Carrie’s feeding style was very different to Paloma’s, which surprised Louise and her husband, and they feared she was not receiving enough milk. But after a weigh-in confirmed that she had in fact gained weight since birth, things started to get on track. At six months, Carrie is now successfully breastfeeding, and her older daughter, Paloma has got in on the act, returning to breastfeeding after a year of being weaned. Louise is now tandem feeding both daughters. 

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other bookshops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end.

And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too. Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm gonna be talking to Louise Louise Goldsmith, who is a doctor from North London, and she's a doctor and an aspiring I-B-C-L-C and has done all her lactation training and is super knowledgeable, but yet, as you'll have seen from the title of this episode, we're talking about how you can have all that background and a successful first time breastfeeding experience.

And it doesn't necessarily mean things are gonna go swimmingly well, second time around. So we're not doing this episode to make you feel nervous and to make you feel worried about baby number two. We're just doing this episode to make you realize that everyone can go through challenges and everyone can have a difficult time.

And I really appreciate Louise joining me today to be honest and open about her experience. Thank you for that, Louise. It's also exciting because you're gonna tell us a little bit about your first breastfeeding experience with your older daughter Paloma. And it'd be great to hear your experience of weaning.

'cause I always love to talk about weaning. Mm-hmm. And spoiler alert, you also made the choice to let Paloma come back onto the breast when baby was born, which I think people will be really interested to hear about. 'cause that's a difficult decision that lots of people have to make. So before we talk about your new baby, how, how old is baby number two, by the way?

How's, how old's Carrie? Uh, so Carrie 

[00:01:59] Louise Goldsmith: is three months old. 

[00:02:00] Emma Pickett: Okay. So before we talk about your experience with, with Carrie and, and that sort of crisis of confidence, let's go back to pre Paloma. So you were working as a doctor in what kind of context? Um, 

[00:02:13] Louise Goldsmith: so I'm a surgeon, a urologist, a trainee. 

[00:02:15] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you're literally a brain surgeon, is that what you're telling me?

No. Urologist, kidneys and men. That surgeon. Oh, not brain surgeon, urologist. I thought you said neurologist. Okay. Making it sound like kidneys are super easy. By the way. I'm not implying that kidneys are super easy. I'm not something I'm going to be capable of ever doing. Okay. So you are a urologist doing kidney transplants and things like that and, and moving tubes around.

Yeah, we 

[00:02:38] Louise Goldsmith: kind of. Kidney cancers. I'm still training, but yeah, kidney stones and prostate cancer and bladder cancers. 

[00:02:43] Emma Pickett: Okay. Something like that. And I'm kind of guessing, I know the answer to this, but when you were training as a doctor, did lactation come up at all in your general training? I. I can't even 

[00:02:52] Louise Goldsmith: recall a lecture, but I have not the best memory.

But no, nothing, 

[00:02:55] Emma Pickett: I, I think you are lying when you say you don't have the best memory because people don't become doctors if they don't have good memories. You have to remember so many flipping things and learn. So many mnemonic me, I can't even say the word monic, that learn do them. Um, so I'm pretty sure you do have a good memory.

And so I'm gonna take that to mean that lactation did not really come up much in your training. So when you realized you were pregnant, what were your feelings around breastfeeding? What was your kind of background in breastfeeding? Any family experience? Any close friends? 

[00:03:23] Louise Goldsmith: Yeah, so a couple of friends had breastfed, but I, we, we were the last of our friendship group to have a kid.

So I hadn't massively spoken to them. I hadn't really been involved during their breastfeeding experience. I kind of thought, yeah, our breastfeed, it's natural, it the thing to do. My mom had breastfed us, but I didn't really give it any more thought than that. And I do remember. When I did my NCT course, we had a breastfeeding counselor and I remember thinking, why would there be a counselor 'cause breastfeeding, you just do it.

And fast forward, and now I fully understand why there is so much need for support around breastfeeding. But before I breastfeed I just thought, yeah, I'll just put my boob in the mouth and it would just happen. 

[00:03:59] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Dot. So it's interesting, you almost have the opposite to what lots of other people experience.

So in the UK we seem to fall into two camps. It's either the Breastfeeding's a nightmare, it doesn't work out for anybody. My sister had a terrible experience. I don't wanna put myself through that. I'll give it a go, but I'm not expecting it to work. Camp A or Camp B is, why would you even need such a thing as a breastfeeding counselor?

It's flipping easy. What's the problem? So it's really interesting that there's, you are from that extreme end of the best spectrum. So tell us a little bit about your breastfeeding experience with Paloma. What was the birth like? What were the early weeks and months like? 

[00:04:33] Louise Goldsmith: Yeah, so I had, um, an emergency caesarean after I'd been induced for a couple of days, and because she came about 12 days later, managed to harvest quite a lot colostrum for her, and we used that quite well in the first couple of days when my milk hadn't initially come in.

When my milk did come in, I had a bit of nipple pain. I remember it was during Covid, so I sent a video to, uh, a lactation consultant in the area, and they just said, unsold the baby. I'd had her completely swaddled up, didn't know what I was doing, trying to feed her arms, kind of completely tucked in and that sorted all of my pain out.

And then from then on. She loved the boob. I loved breastfeeding and it was, it was plain sailing. To be honest, on the first experience, I thought this is, this was not an issue for me, but I saw other friends who, mum friends going through issues with breastfeeding, which was a massive eye-opener. 

[00:05:20] Emma Pickett: Okay. And that's when you started thinking about training and, and you started possibly becoming an I-B-C-L-C.

I know you've done some work with Dr. Sharon Silverstein as well to, to train in that area. So. So plain sailing, that's a good word. We, we like that even though it means that obvious CLCs don't get, get work outta someone who's plain sailing. I, I love it when I hear of the easy journey and yeah, that swaddling isn't that interesting?

So many people think that swaddling is how you look after early babies, and you even hear stories of. Just to get the hands outta the way. Yeah. Swaddle a baby without realizing exactly what babies are doing with their hands and how they use their hands to kind of centralize themselves on the breast.

And it's all part of their processing. And yeah. So I'm really glad that you're able to contact somebody even though you were dealing with sort of covid lockdowns and things. And then tell us about the ending of Paloma's journey. 

[00:06:07] Louise Goldsmith: She breastfed till she was. Two years old and didn't show any signs of slowing up.

But I was very happy with that. I'd gone back to work at about 15 months part-time, and we would breastfeed on the days that I was at home kind of fairly constantly throughout the day and the days that she wasn't with me. She had a breastfeed in the morning and then throughout the night we, with her sleeping for most of her later life or for kind of year one to year two.

And then at year two, we decided we wanted to have another child. My periods hadn't returned. I actually have a. Pituitary condition, so I normally have to do a medication to ovulate. Couldn't start that. So I have a pituitary micro adenoma. Couldn't start that until. She'd stopped breastfeeding to get back on the medication and so decided that we should, we wanted to gently wean her.

[00:06:50] Emma Pickett: Can I just pause you there for a second? Louis? Luis, tell me a little bit more about your pituitary condition. Sorry, what did you call it? A mic. So, 

[00:06:57] Louise Goldsmith: um, I've got a prolactinoma, so it's a little growth on your pituitary. Okay. Gland in your brain, basically. 

[00:07:02] Emma Pickett: So, so with an I-B-C-L-C hat on, I've heard of that in the context of how it impacts on people's lactation.

So quite often it means lots of prolactin and, and sometimes people with that condition will have oversupply or overproduction. Did it impact on your lactation at all? 

[00:07:16] Louise Goldsmith: I mean, I had lots of milk for Paloma, but not, I, I never had mastitis or kind of, um, any issues. So I wasn't aware of, I didn't really know of oversupply.

With diploma. So when I was breastfeeding her, she just breastfed a lot. Breastfed quite happily, 

[00:07:29] Emma Pickett: but no complications from that part. Yeah, no complications. Okay. And can I just ask you also, before we launch into, you're talking about your weaning, which I'm excited to hear about. When you were working and you'd gone back to work, were you doing any night shifts?

Was were you, did you have to do, or was it just daytime work? 

[00:07:44] Louise Goldsmith: Yep. 

[00:07:44] Emma Pickett: So 

[00:07:45] Louise Goldsmith: we do weekends and nighttimes. Um, as a urologist, you do your nighttime shift based at home and you go in and operate if there's an emergency. So I could still breastfeed her kind of to sleep if I was in the, if I was at home. And otherwise she would take a bottle of expressed milk from my husband at that stage.

[00:07:59] Emma Pickett: Okay. Rather 

[00:08:00] Louise Goldsmith: happily. So. 

[00:08:01] Emma Pickett: The reason I ask that is 'cause I think lots of people imagine that, you know, if I'm going to be doing night work, I have to wean. I can't, you know, I can't go backwards and forwards. But actually I think it's just really good to acknowledge that toddlers can have someone else caring for them and then when you're with them you can breastfeed and that absolutely works out.

Yeah. Thank you for letting me highlight those things. Okay, so you decided that you wanted to go back on your medication to help you conceive baby number two. And tell us how you went about weaning. What was that journey like for you? Me and my husband 

[00:08:28] Louise Goldsmith: spoke about it a. I didn't know where to begin. And I posted in a couple of groups and I said, do you just, you know, go, go cold Turkey?

Do you just say that's your last breastfeed and you're done? That's what I assumed you would do. And somebody posted a link to your podcast, the one about weaning a booby monster. And I listened to it and it completely transformed our experience. I think the point that was made was that breastfeeding, by this stage is your Swiss Army knife of parenting and.

If you take away that breastfeeding, how are you gonna fill that void? And we listened to the podcast and I got my husband to listen to it as well. And what I did was for about a week, I just watched when she wanted to breastfeed and it was, I. Basically whenever I wasn't giving her attention, not in a bratty way, but if I came home from work and I was talking to my husband and talking to her, she'd wanna get onto the boob.

So I noticed and wrote down for when was she wanting the boob. If I was on my phone, she would want the boob, not, it makes me sound like an awful parent, but she just wanted, no, it makes me sound like a 

[00:09:29] Emma Pickett: normal human being who's come home from operating on kidneys. You're allowed to pick up your phone. Um, and then 

[00:09:35] Louise Goldsmith: after that, I basically.

Flooded her with attention at those points when she was wanting to breastfeed. So I'd come home from work rather than, you know, fully talk to my husband. I would take her out in the garden, walk around, chat with her, play with her, and she wasn't interested in boob 'cause she got me. And that massively reduced our breastfeeding down to probably one a day from eight times a day on the days that I was with her when I was looking after her.

And then we started doing countdown. So it would be, you know, 10 seconds of boob. You can have booby for a minute or 30 seconds. We'll countdown for 10 and then just very easily and gently. There was no issue and then it, it weaned off. And that was, that was that basically. Okay. And I also read, um, one of the books Boob, um, boob Moon as well.

[00:10:14] Emma Pickett: Okay, cool. And what was her nighttime breastfeeding at that point? So she'd been taking a bottle at night occasionally. Had you, did you find night weaning difficult or was that something that had naturally faded away Anyway, 

[00:10:24] Louise Goldsmith: so she was still waking to feed at about four in the morning. I would go in and I was co-sleeping with her.

She was on the boob. And we had a couple of conversations by that stage saying, you know, boobies are sleeping at nighttime. And I would go with a bottle of warm cow's milk and she would cuddle with me and she was quite happy to take it, which I was, I was gobsmacked at. 'cause she'd never taken a bottle off of me before.

She would take them off of other people and my husband, but never from me. Okay. 

[00:10:48] Emma Pickett: So that sounds pretty straightforward from what you've described. And that was because, I mean, thank you for mentioning my podcast checks in the post, by the way. Okay. I don't think modern people know what checks in the post means, but that's what we used to say in my era.

Um, yeah, I mean that concept of observing, taking some time to work out what are the triggers. Why are they asking for a breastfeed? What's going on? And it's different for every child. And, and you know, the, the idea of saying, Hey, I'm, I'm important, I matter. That is, that is really common as, as a cause of a more frequent feeding.

So, so I love what you're saying about sort of flooding her with attention and, and realizing that naturally breastfeeding will, will fade away in that situation. 

[00:11:23] Louise Goldsmith: Before I weaned her, I was quite nervous about how I was gonna replace my parenting tools because I was almost not a lazy parent, but that was what I did for everything.

She was hurt, she was hungry, she was annoyed. I would just get my trip out anywhere and that sorted out. Whereas my husband had all these tools of negotiating and, you know, engaging in a different way, and I suddenly thought, wow, I need to, I'm gonna have to step into this parenting arena, not just with my little leading, actually with my aunt, with your little leading.

Obviously that's how I want. Like, it just was tit all the time, which was lovely and I loved it. It was, I was really nervous about how our relationship was gonna change, but we did navigate it. So it's, yeah. 

[00:11:59] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I love what you said. Leading with the nipple. Yeah. But also, I, I guess by leading with the nipple, you created that foundation of trust and love, which meant that when you needed to then diversify, you had that, that foundation there to work on.

So that is, yeah. There's nothing wrong with leading with the nipple. I think it's a, it's a very useful Swiss Army knife. Mm-hmm. Do you remember the last feed, by the way? Do you remember what that, 

[00:12:21] Louise Goldsmith: what that feed was? Yes, she was on the sofa with me and it was only a short little feed. It wasn't it, we didn't know it was gonna be the last feed, but she didn't ask for it again after that and yeah.

[00:12:33] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And you felt okay in terms of sort of weaning blues or low mood, you didn't have any particular impact from ending breastfeeding? 

[00:12:41] Louise Goldsmith: No, I think it took us about six weeks in total to reduce down completely. So I think maybe that was why I managed to get away with not having weaning blues. But I dunno if, yeah, 

[00:12:49] Emma Pickett: no, that is my experience.

Yeah. My experience is that people who have move slowly are far, far less likely to be impacted if, if at all. Okay. So then you went back on your medication. Yeah. And you got your cycle returned. And how long was it before, um, you conceived Carrie, if you don't mind me asking? 

[00:13:08] Louise Goldsmith: Um, so I. Two periods and they were checking my checking with my blood test to see whether I was ovulating.

I didn't ovulate with my first cycle. And then my second period I ovulated and we actually got pregnant off of that. So I was very lucky. 

[00:13:20] Emma Pickett: Okay. Presumably you thought, Hey, breastfeeding, I can do that. Tick. Easy peasy. I'm, I've not only have I now breastfed someone for two years, I've also done all this extra education around breastfeeding.

Were you looking forward to it? Were you, what were your feelings around thinking about breastfeeding number two? 

[00:13:35] Louise Goldsmith: Yeah, I, I thought I can do this. I've got this, this is, you know, I did it last time for two years and not, yeah, looking forward to it, to a degree, like as in it, 'cause it went smoothly last time.

And actually the first time I took a step back and thought, actually I need to think about this. I was sat shadowing in Sharon Silverstein's clinic and a patient came in with her baby, her newborn, and she said having X, Y, and Z issues. And I don't understand, 'cause I was the breastfeeding queen with my first child and how can it be so different with a second?

And that really made me think, oh God, Louise, you need to just have a little take a moment because actually it might not be the same first to second. I presume that your first baby would be exactly the same as your second baby or second baby first as your same as your first. And that was a highlight to me to make me think actually things could be different second time round, but even still didn't massively believe it.

[00:14:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I think if anything people think the opposite's true. They think if I've had challenges in my first, surely it's easier second time around because I've got all this experience and you know, my milk supply's up and running and I'm just gonna be forming new prolactin receptors on top of old ones.

And you know, I'm not, that's never gonna be repeated the same way again, which is what something I often do say to people who've had a difficult first time experience. You'll know where to get help. You'll never be quite as new as you were the first time around. So you are pregnant with Carrie. And how did you talk to Paloma about life with Baby?

Did you have any conversations in advance about Carrie's breastfeeding, or breastfeeding the new baby? 

[00:15:03] Louise Goldsmith: Yeah, so we, we did, I did talk to Paloma. We both spoke to her to say, you know, when the baby comes, she's gonna want booby milk. That's how we feed her. That's how we look after her, just like you did.

Because I didn't, she was still so attached to my boobs to be honest. We breastfed for two years, but she still would have con physical contact with my nipples every day until I gave birth. She would kiss my boobies goodnight every night. She would kiss my nipples goodnight. That was, that was a real thing for us, and I didn't know how it was gonna play out when new baby came.

So I just explained that that's what babies need to drink, like she did and didn't know what was gonna happen. But I was aware that there was potential for. Okay. 

[00:15:44] Emma Pickett: That's really interesting. So she still had that, that emotional attachment. So interesting that she's kissing nipples but not asking to latch on again.

She's really, yes. Closed that side of her off, hasn't she? Mm-hmm. She's sort of, that is interesting. 'cause quite often I think we imagine when you do wean a 2-year-old, if they're having nipple contact, they're gonna still want to latch on. They're still gonna ask to latch on. So really interesting that, that she's an example of someone who didn't necessarily ask to breastfeed again.

Did you have any, I mean if she's touching nipples and having contact with nipples, were you struggling with any nipple sensitivity? Did you have any pain during pregnancy? 

[00:16:13] Louise Goldsmith: No, I didn't actually. And friends had had sensitive boobs and during their pregnancy and that would be an issue for them. But no, luckily my, I was happy for her to twiddle away.

[00:16:22] Emma Pickett: Okay, cool. And then you gave birth to Carrie. Tell us about that birth experience. 

[00:16:27] Louise Goldsmith: I opted to have an elective cesarean this time because I had a cesarean the last time. And it all went very smoothly as she came at 39. In two weeks as planned, I hadn't been able to harvest much colostrum, so I harvested quite a lot last time.

And I only had probably two or three purple syringes of colostrum at, at most that I was quite nervous going into the birth because last time I had my stash and this time I didn't have much. So that was kinda the main difference for us. 

[00:16:53] Emma Pickett: Okay. And what were the early breastfeeding experiences like? So when you had the C-section, were you in an environment where people were very much.

You know, wanting baby to be on you and having that skin to skin experience. What was the sort of culture in that particular hospital? 

[00:17:07] Louise Goldsmith: Yeah, so the, it was a really good culture and the obstetrician was very pro, getting the baby onto skin to skin. She spoke about delayed cord clamping and Carrie came straight onto my chest and she was trying to latch in the while I was still kind of in the operating theater.

And she fed in recovery quite easily. So it was a, it was a nice, from my perspective, it was a very positive se and there was very pro getting the baby onto me, not kind of keeping us separated. 

[00:17:34] Emma Pickett: Great. And how did the next 24 hours go? 

[00:17:36] Louise Goldsmith: So she was born at about nine in the morning and she spent the day kind of on the boob trying to feed.

Wasn't much coming out, seemed happy enough and kind of was sleeping and comfortable. And then my husband went home that night about six o'clock to look after an older kid and. She was unhappy the whole night. She not screaming, but she just wasn't settled. She would want to be on me. I was squeezing my boobs, trying to get food out for her, trying to get something for her, and I didn't really have anything for her.

And it was really, really hard. It was, you felt at sea because I remembered having a baby that was only ever comforted and happy, and I had this baby that just wasn't. Being settled by me. And I gave her the colostrum that we had, I'd collected and the nurses helped me and they kept saying, oh, I think she's just hungry.

Keep trying to feed, keep trying to keep going at it. And then at some point in the night, maybe at four in the morning or so, she, I, they heard me being up all night. I was walking her around trying to get her to be settled and they came and said, oh, she's hungry and hearing that this baby is hungry, your newborn, who you just want to be content.

It was really upsetting, and not that I mind them saying it, but it makes you start questioning everything. I was like, why can't I look after this baby? And they said, do you want to give some formula? And even I didn't wanna give formula, but a small part of me was like, Ooh, actually, do I want to give some formula?

She's telling, they're telling me she's hungry. And it was a really. Different 12 hours. 'cause when I had Paloma the first time, I had loads of rum and I just filled her up with loads of posture that we syringed in and it made her, or seemed to be much more content with it. And this time round, the first 24 hours, it was, it was tough because she was unhappy and I didn't feel I was able to settle her.

[00:19:19] Emma Pickett: So when you say that first night your husband had gone home, we are literally talking about not even 12 hours since you've given birth. There's that difficult night. I'm kind of impressed you're walking around. Louise blind me. I guess this is the doctor in you wanting to get mobile as soon as possible.

Um, so you are. Trying to latch her on and she's just not latching at all, or she's latching and not, not staying on, or 

[00:19:42] Louise Goldsmith: she was latching and coming on and off and it wasn't causing me pain. But she, I don't think she was getting much outta me. I was, I was trying to hand express as well to see if I could get anything to give her, and my boobs just seemed pretty empty and pretty dry, and so I kept putting it to my boob.

And I just didn't seem to satisfy her because I'm not sure that she was, or it felt like she wasn't getting anything from me, and so she would be on the breast and didn't really seem to be fed up, filled up from it. 

[00:20:08] Emma Pickett: Okay. So for anyone who's listening and, and we can put our kind of I-B-C-L-C brains together on this one, it, it is kind of.

Unusual to not produce colostrum in that first day. I mean, it's very, very, very rare for someone to not have colostrum. So it, I wonder whether maybe there was a combination of something going on with her latching and, and hand expressing often doesn't work and if you are anxious or hand expressing is often not gonna work.

And, and especially if you're already thinking, oh my God, I didn't express in advance and I can't do this. And, um. You know, I'm not, I'm not saying I think you had milk and you were just being daft. I, but I am wondering whether there were other factors that were making it look like you didn't have colostrum.

'cause that would be an unusual setup. Mm-hmm. And I can hear that your confidence is already being, you know, un not undermined 'cause that people are saying things that are legitimate, but being eroded, but by what was going on. Was she, I mean, I'm not expecting to remember all the tiny details 'cause there's lots of emotions flying around here.

And you're also, you've just had a c-section, but did she pass meconium in the first 24 hours? What was happening with her nappies? 

[00:21:12] Louise Goldsmith: No. So that was the other thing. She, she hadn't, she didn't open her bowels, I think for about 18 hours or so. Okay. And so throughout the night, every time the nurse would come in, the midwife came in, they said, has she food?

Have you had a dirty nap? And you're like, no, and you just, you start to feel like you're failing. I felt, as you said, I'm sure there probably was colostrum there, but you feel like nothing's going into her. Nothing's coming outta her, and then they're like, your baby's hungry. And I'm like, I know. I know.

She's hungry. And so they're off saying she wants to give her a bottle and yeah, absolutely. Just this feeling of failure within the first 12 hours of her being born was my overriding emotion because. Yeah. Yeah. Nothing going in it, it seemed like nothing was coming out at that stage. 

[00:21:50] Emma Pickett: I mean, not to have a poof for 18 hours.

She, she wasn't taking in colostrum, I think, from what you've described. So something's happening at the breast, which means that, that she's, she's not latching or maybe gotten to a place of being very dysregulated and couldn't latch. But it sounds really tough going, and you're on your own as well. I mean, because yeah, your husband's gone back to be with Paloma.

That's a really isolating, difficult, difficult experience. So what did you do? Did you give her a bottle? What happened next? 

[00:22:16] Louise Goldsmith: So I didn't, and I kind of had a, I had to hold my nerve and I said, you know, there's a reason that, you know, it worked last time. She's coming to the boob. Let's just wait till morning and keep going and your milk will come in.

But I had to give myself a bit of a pep talk and try and almost put my lactation hat on and say, come on, you can, you know, you know that this will, the milk will come in and she will be okay. And I thought, if she's not medically. Hyperglycemic got low sugars, we'll just carry on. This is kind of what we'll get there.

Um, but it was, it was tough 'cause I was tempted to give her a bottle and I really didn't wanna give her formula. That was just something for me personally. 

[00:22:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:22:54] Louise Goldsmith: I wanted to keep on the boob if we could. 

[00:22:56] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So does day two get easier? What happens on day two? 

[00:23:00] Louise Goldsmith: Yeah. So 

[00:23:00] Emma Pickett: day two, or is it technically day one?

Actually, that's the next good. Yeah. 

[00:23:05] Louise Goldsmith: The next morning. The next morning the, my boobs started to fill up pretty quickly. Um, I started feeling fairly engorge in a, in a good way. And I was like, okay, good. I feel like my milk is slowly and if my milk's coming, but I'm starting to produce something. And she started having wet and dirty nappies and the meconium started coming.

So that was a relief. And she was feeding and that was a, a degree of a relief. But then she was doing quite short feeds and she was coming to me quite often. And I think given the, the night before, whether there hadn't, I, I, I felt like there hadn't been much milk. Me and my husband were saying, you know, why is she coming so often to the boob?

'cause my diploma never really cluster fed or didn't spend ages at the boom. So it was a very different experience. When we got home, I was sent home later that day. I started doing a bit of hand expressing so that my husband could syringe feed her. That's just what we like to do as a, as a family. And he would give her some milk and 30 minutes later she'd be fussing or want to come back to the chest.

He was like, you know, why is she wanting to do this, you know? Why is she wanting to be with you? I've just fed her. She can't want more, want more milk and he's very pro breastfeeding and I explained everything I understand, buy it to him as well. And both of us started to think, what's going on with this is not as easy as it was last time.

[00:24:16] Emma Pickett: Okay. So, so, so your milk's coming in. Mm-hmm. She's obviously feeding, but it's almost your experience with Paloma had given you this idea that babies naturally fall into long intervals and this sort of unsettled cluster feeding. Perhaps on top of that difficult first night just was also eroding your confidence as well and making you feel as though things weren't normal, but, but nappies were okay.

Um, yeah, nappies were Okay. So that was kind of, and she was doing well? 

[00:24:43] Louise Goldsmith: Yes. And we carried on in this vein and we kind of were doing just breastfeeding as she wanted to. They were quite short feed. 

[00:24:50] Emma Pickett: When you say quite short feed, I'm not expecting you to remember all the tiny details, but UNICEF baby friendly talk about five minutes as potentially being long enough.

That sort of length? 

[00:24:59] Louise Goldsmith: Yeah, five to 10, 5, 7 minutes. So yes, officially long enough, but when you are watching it and you are worried, it felt very short. Especially when I had a baby Paloma spend hours there. Yeah. 

[00:25:08] Emma Pickett: Paloma wasn't doing that. That does feel odd if that's not your normal. Yeah. 

[00:25:13] Louise Goldsmith: Okay. Yeah. This time around, we had decided to co-sleep as well.

So I was really co-sleeping with her and feeding her in the night. But just kind of rolling over, just side feeding her and then rolling back again. So not feeding as much as I used to with diploma. She was in a a Moses basket and we would get up and feed her kind of every how often. And I was really anxious that come day five, her weight was gonna have massively declined and we're gonna have to do things differently.

[00:25:38] Emma Pickett: Okay. Sorry, I'm a bit confused. So you were co-sleeping with Carrie, but you feel that that would mean less feeding. 

[00:25:43] Louise Goldsmith: Yes, 

[00:25:44] Emma Pickett: I know it seems crazy, 

[00:25:45] Louise Goldsmith: but. I wasn't getting up to do long feeds. I would kind of roll over, give her my boob, and we'd both just fall asleep again, and I didn't know how long the feeds were going on for.

Okay. 

[00:25:54] Emma Pickett: So because you were less kind of switched in, you were less kind of consciously feeding? Yeah. That, that led you to feel that maybe she wasn't getting as much milk as Paloma had been. Although, you know, normally we would say that that co-sleeping facilitates. Lactation success. If you look at the work of Helen Ball and um, the infant sleep information service, it looks, it looks as though co-sleeping in the early days is, brings positive outcomes in breastfeeding.

But, but I guess in combination with Carrie's shorter feeds, you, it just, everything was sort of making you feel like, this isn't what it was before. This doesn't, this doesn't feel right, this doesn't feel normal. So you're worried about her weight gain. What, what was, what was the story with her early weigh in?

So actually 

[00:26:34] Louise Goldsmith: ridiculously so she got weighed in at day five and she'd actually gained eight grams. 

[00:26:38] Emma Pickett: Okay, so she gained over her birth weight? Yes. Okay. 

[00:26:42] Louise Goldsmith: Everything went really well, and that was a massive reassurance and then I said, okay, relax, you're doing it just kind of responsively. You're feeding her when she wants it.

Short little feeds, but it's fine. It's going. And from that point on, everything was very positive, but just the storm up until that point. I was surprised it had come into our house and into my head was really surprising when that hadn't happened the first time around. 'cause with Paloma, I wrote down all the feeds, like the duration, all of that stuff.

I had it on pieces of paper, whereas with Carrie, I didn't have time to write it down. And then you start thinking, is she getting enough milk? And I was just gobsmacked by the questioning, the internal questioning that I had during those days until she was weighed. And I said, okay, it's working. Relax. 

[00:27:24] Emma Pickett: Okay.

So that crisis of confidence, that's a word that you used when you got in touch with me, and that's a word we talked about, the game, that that's what we're talking about, isn't it? Yeah. A crisis of confidence. And you are a beautiful example of somebody who, on paper, nothing was a problem apart from that first night, which sounded grim.

Um, ev you know, the nappies were great from that first, that that next morning. Yeah. She's feeding regularly, you're feeding responsibly. You know, she's pooing and peeing. She even didn't even lose any weight. Yeah. And for anyone who doesn't know lots and lots and lots of babies will lose weight, you know, potentially up to 10% of their birth weight before they start gaining again, and that can be completely normal.

So to put on 80 grams above birth weight on the first weigh in after a C-section, when quite often moms are given extra fluids, so the birth weight's quite often elevated anyway. And you had that first difficult night to put on 80 grams of birth, birth above birth weight. I think if you, if, if you can take a step back from this story, this is obviously an example of a mom who was nervous and lacked confidence because things weren't measuring in the way she want, expected them to measure.

But actually there was really no reason to lack that confidence because everything on paper was, was going really well. So. Let's drill down as as to what exactly gave you those wobbles. So I'm wondering whether that first night triggered something that you were then recovering from after that. Is that, is that a fair description, do you think?

[00:28:55] Louise Goldsmith: Yeah, I think it really, it's put me on the back foot. I didn't, I had, I think, 'cause I went into feeding naive, just did it this time. I had a benchmark to go by and because she was so fussing and unhappy on that first night. Forevermore. I was just trying to catch up and thinking we need to kind of compensate for that bad night.

And is she not really feeding properly? Is, is there something wrong? I. 

[00:29:20] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I'm wondering whether also there's something going on with, I mean, you must have been exhausted. You didn't get any sleep that first night after you gave birth. Yeah. I wonder whether sleep deprivation was also causing you to kind of doubt things.

Mm-hmm. You know, if your sort of lactation consultant training brain had switched in, you probably would've gone, Hey, come on, nappies are fine. You know, no urates in the nappies. Everything's good. Calm down. But yet your sleep deprivation may be stopped. That side of your brain kind of, of kicking in, I'm wondering.

But it sounds as though a key part of it was the difference in breastfeeding patterns that you had, that Paloma had been, I'm guessing, the classic kind of 20 to 30 minutes every sort of two to three hours baby. And that's what you had felt was normal. Mm-hmm. And now a baby who wants to come back to the breast after an hour, a baby that only feeds for seven minutes is scary.

Is that a, mm-hmm. Is that, do you think that might be true that that was the sort of heart of it? 

[00:30:15] Louise Goldsmith: Definitely. I think that's. And they were just different. I didn't really appreciate you had different babies. I thought they all behaved, you know, from your family would all be the same and. Yeah. 

[00:30:25] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So I think that's, that's just really important to highlight that babies, even, I guess even families with twins, one baby, baby A and baby B might behave differently.

And that variation in feeding pattern is just so, so normal and mm-hmm. And even the same baby might feed one way for two weeks and then switch and feed a different way. But, so I, I wrote an article called The Sort of Dangerous Obsession with the Infant Feeding Interval that sort of talks about how.

We've got to be so careful about focusing on measuring lengths of feeds and and intervals between feeds, and we've got to really kind of step back from that cultural desire to measure things and time things. If you don't mind me saying you're a beautiful example of how somebody with loads of knowledge and even specific lactation knowledge and experience of breastfeeding, you were still a victim of that messaging that yeah, that minutes count and minutes matter and, and this can't be right, that she wants to come back to the breast so soon.

So when you describe your husband syringe feeding. I'm fairly sure the half an hour later she was like, that was great. Thanks dad. But I've quite fancy some skin to skin boob time, if you don't mind. Um, so nothing about nutrition. Yeah. Don't take it personally. Mm-hmm. But I'd quite like to go on the boob and that would be a, a really normal response for, for, for a, for a baby in that situation.

So you had that weigh in, that 80 gram gain, and did you immediately feel a kind of weight lift after you, or did you hold onto some of that anxiety? 

[00:31:50] Louise Goldsmith: No, I did. I, I completely was relieved by that and I kind of closed the door on those first five days after that and moved on. The only thing I did think with hindsight and, and from then we just fed as we wanted.

I wasn't worried in the night if I, if she slept for a bit longer than we expected or didn't know how many fees had happened during the night because you're a bit delirious. But it did make me wonder if she had weighed in with reduced weight, but say less than the 10% that you're, you're allowed to inverse commas have.

What would've my head done at that point? I would've gone even further. The anxiety, the worry would've absolutely, for me, I think spiraled. So I'm very lucky that she had gained weight, but I don't quite know what I would've done or reacted if she hadn't gained weight, to be honest. Okay. 

[00:32:34] Emma Pickett: So even if her weight gain had been normal as it were, rather than more than normal, which is what was happening you, that wouldn't necessarily have been enough to sort of shake you out of the place that you were in.

I want to tell you about my brand new book called The Story of Jesse's Milky. It's a picture book for two to six year olds, and I wanted to write a book that was about weaning, but also not about weaning, because breastfeeding journeys end in all sorts of different ways. So Jesse's story is presented as having three possible endings.

In one ending, his mom is pregnant and Jesse's going to share his milk with a new baby. In the second, his mom is getting really tired and it's time for some mother led weaning. And in the third, we see a self weaning journey as Jesse's attachment to breastfeeding gradually fades. There are beautiful illustrations by the very talented Jojo Ford, and the feedback from parents so far has been so lovely and touching and I'm really excited to share the book with you.

If you're interested in my other books for Older Children, I have the Breast book, which is a guide for nine to 14 year olds. And it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And I also have two books about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding for a 10% discount on the last two.

Go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code. Mm PE 10 Makes milk picket Emma. 10. So that first week or so, then that sounds intense. That sounds like a, a scary time. Not only you're recovering from major surgery, but you're really a crisis with everything that you believed about breastfeeding and you've got to look after Paloma at the same time and Paloma and her and being a big sister for the first time, a new baby in her home.

How did you manage in those first few days with Paloma? Do you remember the first time they met? How did things go? 

[00:34:31] Louise Goldsmith: We brought her home from the hospital, Carrie, and we'd read around a little bit and wanted to have her kind of in a space, so it wasn't me. And Paloma, me and the new baby sat together and Paloma comes to us.

So we had her, I think we sat in the car seat in the middle of the room, and then me and Paloma walked in. To go and meet her. And she was, she'd been, she was very positive. She was very excited. Just scary quite how, how un, not un gentle, but she wants to cuddle and kiss and you're like, yes, that's wonderful.

[00:34:59] Emma Pickett: Oh my gosh. Like, oh, that's so hard, isn't it? Yeah. Not too, not too rough. What does that even mean? They don't understand what that means. So you can't, you can't even say things that they don't, you know, expect 'em to understand. Yeah. That, that enthusiasm and, and joy is, is hard to kind of squish, isn't it?

And then you mentioned, um, to me earlier that Paloma did start feeding again. Tell me about how that came about. 

[00:35:21] Louise Goldsmith: Yeah, so I had wondered if she, I think her baby's just coming up to me. Do you mind if I just That's okay. No, 

[00:35:26] Emma Pickett: go ahead. Go ahead. Grab her special guest star Is Carrie coming in from the left?

Please do feel free to, to have a feed or do anything you need to do. Thank you. Cheer. Um, sorry. No, there is no need for a, sorry. With, without a carry. There would be no, no podcast. And you've already got a latched on if we even sat down. Yeah, she's on, she's on. Super, super impressive. Hello, Carrie, we're just talking about you, my love.

Sorry. Yeah. Hey, you said sorry again. Stop it. No, that's exactly what we want. We want to see. Well, I, no one else can see. I can, I can see. Yeah. She's very happily pottering on. Hello, Carrie. Nice to see. Very pretty baby girl. Um, so I was just asking you about Paloma coming onto the breast. How, tell me about how that came about.

Had you already thought in advance, by the way that that might happen? Had you prepared for that as a possibility? 

[00:36:24] Louise Goldsmith: Yes. Um, I thought there's a, I was expecting her to immediately want to latch on, to be honest, I thought as soon as she saw Carrie at the boob, she would want to be back there. And so I'd said to my husband a couple of weeks before, you know, if Paloma shows interest, what do we 'cause, what do we want to do about it?

Do we want to, do we not want to? And I wanted to involve in the conversation because. There's, I think, I thought it could potentially change our parenting dynamic if she's back breastfeeding. Does he want me to, from a, you know, embarrassed perspective or just from a behavioral perspective, that's not just for me to say this has happened.

That's how I felt about it personally anyway. Okay. And he said, let's just see what she does. If she wants it, we're not gonna deny it to her. And let's just see what she does and be guided by her because we weren't, I didn't feel strongly either way. I wasn't desperate for her to restart, feeding. I wasn't desperate to not, um, and she had no interest for the first 10 days when I was super engorge.

And all I wanted was her. Wow. Interesting. She, I just stopped playing, please just come and drain me over. Give me such good relief. And she, I didn't wanna force, I didn't wanna walk around too naked around her, and she had no interest. And then on, can I just say how much I 

[00:37:31] Emma Pickett: love what your husband said when you asked him?

I just love the approach of. Let's just see, I think we assume that blokes would say, oh no, let's try not to let that happen. Let's, let's try and control that. But for him to say, let's let her take the lead, I think is just such a fantastic response to that question. Um, so really interesting that 10 days, she wasn't fast at the time when you might imagine she was most vulnerable, most keen, most really wanting to assert that connection.

She wasn't interested. How fascinating. Okay. Yeah, so, so it didn't overlap with that crisis of confidence, which I guess is a gift in a way that those really difficult first five days and also when you are healing from the C-section and possibly physically latching her on, might have been a bit more challenging.

Um, you know, that wasn't a time when, when she wanted to. So what was going on around day 10, do you think? So we were getting ready to go back 

[00:38:19] Louise Goldsmith: to my family's for Christmas. So we were packing up and there was probably talk of us going to my, my dad's house at her granddad's for the week. And one day she just walked up to me, she said, oh, can I have some booboo?

And I looked at my husband and we were like, oh, okay, sure. And she just, she breastfed for about 10 minutes or so and then walked away. And that was, that was that. We went back to Bristol for Christmas that day and she breastfed at my granddad at my dad's house, and she's continued breastfeeding since.

I'll just hand her back, think she wants to go sleep. Okay. Yeah, course.

[00:38:58] Emma Pickett: That was a beautiful example of how efficiently she feeds. Even now in three months, she doesn't mess around. That was, that wasn't even five minutes. Yeah, she's a, she gets down to business. Does Carrie? Okay. 

[00:39:08] Louise Goldsmith: Yeah, I saw your poster that about business breastfeed. She is, she's a business breast feeder for sure.

[00:39:12] Emma Pickett: So she is so Paloma's asking to feed again. She's coming back onto the breast. Does it feel comfortable for you latching wise, by the way? 'cause this is nine months at least, if not longer, since she's breast. Well it must be more than that 'cause you had obviously dead time for your two cycles. So at least 10 months since she's last breastfed.

How was Paloma's latching? Do you remember? Initially 

[00:39:30] Louise Goldsmith: it wasn't that. It was fine when she initially latched on and then 30 seconds into it. It would be painful. So she wasn't biting, but I could feel her teeth kind of resting around my nipple and she would sucking like an. It was like a post pipe just sucking out of me.

And it was, it was quite sore. So I'd asked around a couple of kind of Facebook groups and someone said, tell your toddler to put their chin onto your boob. Yes. And that was a game changer. That is so true. And then I was, ah, it was, she understood it and it 

[00:39:57] Emma Pickett: completely sorted it. It was amazing. That's such a good bit of information so people think, oh, it's the wide mouth.

They have to gape. It's about gaping, but actually. Gaping without chin contact is not gonna do it. Um, you're still gonna get that teeth problem and if they haven't got that chin contact, they don't have that tongue contact, so they're gonna suck instead. And actually, if you've got the chin in the tongue, they don't need to suck because the lovely wave light motion of the tongue will be creating that negative pressure.

So thank you for highlighting that chin contact when we're in pain with toddler breastfeeding is so important. So you got that sorted. She's coming on the breast and, and what was a typical 24 hours, she was breastfeeding quite regularly then. So 

[00:40:33] Louise Goldsmith: she'd come in in the morning, she'd come into our bedroom, get into bed and breastfeed while we were all in bed together, maybe middle of the morning she might breastfeed with Carrie, also breastfeeding on the sofa at the same time, maybe once in the afternoon.

And then she started to want to breastfeed, not to sleep, but she would breastfeed and then I would lie in bed with her and she'd roll over and go to sleep then. Okay. Um, but carried on taking, my husband was going in, she still wakes up about four in the morning, and he would still just go in with a bottle of cows milk and she probably shouldn't be having a.

[00:41:02] Emma Pickett: That's where we are. Hey, you've got a three month old. I think we're allowed to, we're allowed to relax. Relax the guidelines a little bit when you've got a three month old at home. So she carried on breastfeeding, but not then through the night. She's a happy to accept still being night weaned, which is, which is handy.

I. And did you feel any wobbles of, oh, how am I gonna organize Carrie's feeding around this, or, uh, is this gonna affect Carrie's feeding? Anything negative around that at all? I'm just wondering if your crisis of confidence kind of reared its head again in a, you know, not necessarily logical way or, or did that feel comfortable?

I. 

[00:41:34] Louise Goldsmith: Yeah, not, not around Carrie. So much more. I just thought, how am I gonna handle if both of you want it out and about in public? And so actually what I said to her after a first breastfeed was I said, you can have, when we are at home, you can have boob as much as you want. When we're at granddad's house, you can have boob as much as you want, but actually.

Boo when we're at a cafe in a park is just for baby Carrie. I can't, and she has never asked for out in public and I don't know, there was something in me. I didn't wanna breastfeed, tandem breastfeed in public, and I just thought it would be difficult for me to navigate to. Two kids wanting to boob while I'm out and about.

I didn't wanna having a tantrum if I said no for any reason. So I set that quite clearly and that's worked quite nicely for us. 

[00:42:11] Emma Pickett: Great. Yeah, and I think that's a good example of how you absolutely can set boundaries. And when we set a boundary with confidence and they realize we mean it, it just, you know, it's gonna be much more likely to be successful.

So what are your plans for Paloma's breastfeeding now? Are you thinking, see how it goes? What are your kind of, what are you imagining. 

[00:42:32] Louise Goldsmith: Yeah, I think we'll see how it goes. Probably she'll probably carry on breastfeeding after Carrie, to be honest. And then we'll want another child and I have to, we her again is kind of what I could imagine, but it's working for us.

[00:42:44] Emma Pickett: You mean because Carrie is such a business woman when it comes to breastfeeding. She doesn't, do you kinda get that vibe that maybe she won't have quite that emotional attachment? I guess it's a bit early to tell. Yeah. She's only three months old. 

[00:42:53] Louise Goldsmith: Yeah. I think diploma would sleep on my boobs all day long.

We used to, you know, whereas Carrie doesn't really fall asleep on the boobs. She'll feed and then sleep in the sling, um, on me. But it's, it's very different in that aspect. 

[00:43:05] Emma Pickett: So what's a night like for her typically at the moment? 

[00:43:08] Louise Goldsmith: So she'll be downstairs with us until about 8:00 PM and then me and her 8, 8 30 go up to bed.

She. Falls asleep next to me. She'll have a feed and she then she kind of falls asleep off the boob, just lying next to me sometimes. She goes, the longest she goes is about six hours. Occasionally, I think, but it's delightful. Co-sleeping. I don't know. The night just happens and I don't get up and I'm under the duvet and it's glorious.

I don't feel tired, which is, I feel I should not say that touch wood, but it's, the night happens. She's next to me. She comes on, she comes off. And you're not looking at the 

[00:43:43] Emma Pickett: clock, which is no, which is great. I, I'm a massive fan of not looking at the clock. I do think often first time round we swim. Every time we wait, call like, what time is it?

What time? How long has that interval been? How long is, and just letting go of that completely just makes such a difference psychologically. And yeah, obviously then there's you not looking at the phone, which potentially means light in your eye as well. Um, so it sounds like you're in a really positive place in those first few days.

Luckily. You know, we we're turned around and, and you know, that crisis of confidence has kind of passed. Weight gains continue to be good for Carrie. No other worries around that. Yeah, that's, yeah, that's carried on. And you talked about number three. Is that something that may be, you obviously carrie's only three months old.

It's a little bit earlier. Is there yet, but is that possibly on the cards? 

[00:44:27] Louise Goldsmith: Yeah, we've always thought maybe three, but we'll see. We'll see how we go with two. But it's not a no, it's a, it's a question mark for sure. Okay. 

[00:44:34] Emma Pickett: So if you did breastfeed again, what do you think you might do differently? Kind of either in pregnancy or in those early days?

[00:44:41] Louise Goldsmith: I think I would have a, an elective cesarean again because it'd be tooth. They wouldn't particularly want you having a vagina, which is fine for me. And so I dunno how much colostrum again, I would get because it's a bit earlier, around 39 weeks. And I think I would probably sit down with my husband and say, let's have a talk about infant behavior to sound a bit kind of academic about it, to reassure ourselves that both of us are on the same page.

So when she's, when the baby is wanting the boob or acting differently, we know. That is normal and just because it's different to our previous two, that's not a source of worry. It shouldn't be a source of worry because I think we both lost our heads a little bit and forgot. What we understood by how a baby can behave.

[00:45:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah. If that makes sense. No, that makes perfect sense. I think you've, you've hit the nail on the head there, and even though it's obvious what a team you are, I mean, I've seen you just hand a hand a carry over for him to put her to sleep. I've, I've seen what a team you are. It sounds like in those first few days you almost kind of rubbed off each other a little bit, and both of you were coming from that place of, oh, this isn't normal and mm-hmm this, this can't be right and she can't want the breast again so soon.

And it just takes one of you to have had a little bit more research around that to think, no, this, this is normal. But having said that, though, you've had two extremes. Now, maybe number three is not gonna be a surprise. They'll either be in the middle or there'll be a carry, or there'll be a Paloma. So I guess it's unlikely that you'll repeat this in exactly the same way again.

When you talk about an expressing, obviously, the, the, the guidance is that you can express from 36 weeks, but is that something that, I guess because you had all that extra time with Paloma, it really meant that you really did have that stash. I mean, you almost had another couple of weeks, you know, to, to get that extra mark, but you think that maybe you've associated having expressed, um, milk with your confidence and being able to feel relaxed and being able and having that feeling of a buffer.

Yeah, so maybe now you've, you've realized that that's something you, you might be able to prioritize a little bit more next time, although you have two little girls to look after while you'll be expressing, so it wouldn't be quite so easy. Thank you very much for sharing your, your story, Louise. I really appreciate it and as I said, it's just really helpful to hear that even someone who was a doctor, even someone who'd done I-B-C-L-C training.

Still couldn't believe it when a baby was, you know, not following the guidance or not having lovely long intervals, or having really short feeds. I think it's just, it really highlights how important it is for everyone to be taught that babies just can have an enormous variety of behaviors and still be completely normal and, um, you know, everything can go well.

And then that first night in hospital. It just really sounds tough, that that just sounds like a really hard time. And, um, sort of sorry that you went through that. Would you, looking back on that, on that first night, would you have done anything differently, do you think, if you had that time again? 

[00:47:26] Louise Goldsmith: No, I'm, I am.

I mean, I didn't have any, I offered her the boob as much as I could. Maybe I could have asked someone to come and have a look at her latch or asked if there was somebody that could come and have a look. 'cause again, I thought, I. I knew what I was doing, you know, in adverse comm. So I just thought, oh, I, I know how to put her on.

So if someone had come and looked and said, no, that is right, or let's tweak things, that probably would've been the way to get some more reassurance there. 

[00:47:48] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Or even if they didn't necessarily tweak things, just have someone with you. To kind of help you get into a different head space, maybe would've been, or, you know, just having that, that support.

Support doesn't have to be knowledge. It can also just be literally emotional support. Cool. Okay. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you wanted to share? Anything that we haven't touched on? No, that sounds, I think that's all. Okay. Thank you Louise, for being super honest about your, your crisis of confidence.

I really appreciate it. And also lovely to hear how Paloma restarted breastfeeding and that absolutely works for you. And it's just, you know, works for your family. That's a, it's just lovely to hear about flexibility with hand and feeding, but I guess there are some people here who probably. Weaned their first child thinking, well, that's it.

Now we're done. Then you know, they haven't breastfed for nine months. They're not gonna ask again, are they? Surely not, not after nine months. But Paloma's an example of little person who even after 10 months of not breastfeeding, 12 months of not breastfeeding. Oh no, it's exactly a year, isn't it? There exactly.

Three years apart. So she didn't breastfeed for a year. And wanted to breastfeed again. So, so, yeah, I think it's just really good to highlight that you need to be prepared for every eventuality and, and have conversations with your partner and think what, think through what you're gonna do, because you can be surprised.

Yeah. And also thinking for 10 days, oh, she was not gonna latch on again. We're not gonna breastfeed now and then after 10 days. Wow. So you really do have to be prepared for, for every possibility. And it's just great to hear how, how flexible you are and, and where you've got to now. Thanks for today.

Really appreciate it. Thanks, Emma.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett, IB clc, and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.