Vicky's story - working as a nurse while breastfeeding

 Vicky, my guest this week, is a fantastic example of successful breastfeeding at work. She is a nurse in a busy intensive care unit, who takes regular breaks to pump in a dedicated room, with the full support of her manager and colleagues. 

This success story is even better when you hear how she got to this place - her daughter Evie’s birth was painful and distressing, ending with a ventouse delivery. She struggled to breastfeed in the hospital, relying on expressing and syringes, and continued to struggle through pain and a staph infection at home. Vicky’s determination to breastfeed kept her going through the pain for seven months and three tongue tie divisions, before she and Evie settled into the feeding relationship they continue today.

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other bookshops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end.

And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too. Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm going to be talking to Vicky, Vicky Townsend from Cheltham, who is a nurse, and we're gonna be talking about her experience of returning to work as a nurse and training as a nurse while breastfeeding and protecting her breastfeeding journey, which I think is really important, practical information that, um, that she's gonna be sharing with us.

And we're also gonna hear a little bit about her breastfeeding journey with her daughter Evie, who is currently 14 months old. Thank you very much for joining me today, Vicky. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. That's okay. So you are currently a nurse. Let's start at the end of the story.

You have Evie, who's 14 months. Tell me what's a typical day in terms of Evie's breastfeeding patterns? Let's pick a, a non-working day. What do Evie's breastfeeding pounds look like? 

[00:01:35] Vicky: So, when I am not at work, Evie feeds constantly. She feeds whenever she wants to. Yeah, she feeds a lot when I'm not at work.

And during the night, I must say as well. 

[00:01:49] Emma Pickett: So you're kind of co-sleeping, I'm guessing, otherwise, co-sleeping. You wouldn't be alive, 

[00:01:52] Vicky: sleeping 

[00:01:52] Emma Pickett: otherwise. 

[00:01:53] Vicky: I would be 

[00:01:53] Emma Pickett: dead. Yeah. And you're at the point where you're not really counting at night, which, and because if you did, you'd be looking at the clock constantly.

So she's, yeah, she's bobbing on. You're going back to sleep and you're doing that and you're able to work as a nurse alongside that. So that's a bit of an advert for co-sleeping, I think. 

[00:02:09] Vicky: Yeah. So. Some nights are a lot easier than others. Some nights are just a couple of feeds. It's very peaceful. She goes back to sleep.

Some nights are a lot harder and I go to work absolutely exhausted. But you just do it. You, you get through and you do it. 

[00:02:27] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. And obviously you've making the choice to carry on. There's no sense in which you feel you want to change her, her breastfeeding patterns? No. No. And do you have any goals for where you want to get to and do you have any sort of sense of what your goals are with her breastfeeding?

[00:02:40] Vicky: I really don't. I am very much, it's all up to her. When she's ready to stop, we stop. But at the moment, she's absolutely loving it. So yeah, we're happy. 

[00:02:51] Emma Pickett: Oh, that's lovely. So tell me about your working schedule at the moment. What does a typical week look for you look like for you at the moment? 

[00:02:58] Vicky: So I do 30 hours a week, but it does vary depending on shifts.

So an average week would usually be. Free, we call them long days at work. So it's seven 15 till 7 45. So I'm working across site. So when I have to go over to Gloucester, which is a little bit further away from me, I have to leave the house at quarter past six in the morning, and then I don't get home till about quarter to nine at night.

So it's a very long day. Yeah. That is a 

[00:03:30] Emma Pickett: long day. And there are lots, a long day of people who've just listened to that and gone, whoa. Doing that after a night of disturbed sleep Yeah. Is pretty amazing. So, so let's pick one particular day. Let's imagine. So you are in bed with Evie, your alarm is going off.

Yeah. What happens next? 

[00:03:48] Vicky: So I get up, I get ready. Evie usually still asleep at this point. And then just before I leave, so about six o'clock, I wake her up and give her a feed, and then she goes to nursery in her pajamas. So I then leave the house and take her to nursery. 

[00:04:10] Emma Pickett: Do you mind me asking, are you a single mom?

[00:04:13] Vicky: No, no. We've got, um, Charlie, her dad, who's amazing. 

[00:04:17] Emma Pickett: Okay. Yeah. But he, is he asleep at this point? Is he 

[00:04:19] Vicky: No, no. He gets up as well. Okay. And he'll sort all the bags, all her lunches, her nursery, everything he does. That's his side of things. I don't touch her bags. Okay. And I just feed her in the morning. 

[00:04:31] Emma Pickett: And what time's nursery opening?

[00:04:33] Vicky: Seven o'clock. Okay, 

[00:04:35] Emma Pickett: so she's going in her pajamas to nursery? Yeah. And and they undress her and get her ready, you know, get ready for the day and give her breakfast and all that stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And how is she em emotionally about that It. Just how did you find that Starting nursery by the, that's a lovely dog sound effect, which is not a, not a problem.

Can you hear him? It's okay, don't worry. Um, so, so you've got a blooming dog to look after as well. How earth are you managing that? Oh, I don't, I really dunno. Sometimes my mind is boggling. Okay, let's just focus on Evie. So. You. How was that nursery settling in experience for her? How did she get on? 

[00:05:09] Vicky: So for her, amazing.

She settled in so well. It was me that was the problem. I really struggled letting her go. I think you are so used to having them with you for 24 hours of the day and then suddenly you don't. And I found that really, really hard. But no, she's been amazing. She loves it there. She's come on so much. Being there.

All the nursery staff are amazing, so yeah, really, really good. Yeah. That's lovely. So she 

[00:05:40] Emma Pickett: is arriving, having breakfast, and I'm guessing at her age, she's still having a couple of naps at nursery. 

[00:05:46] Vicky: She has one nap. Okay. She's never been a very good sleeper. Yeah. So she has one nap. She started one nap quite young.

And then when she's at nursery, what does she eat and drink? So we give her her food and drinks. She takes it all with her. So she's very good with her. Solid. She loves her food. We do still give her the equivalent of a bottle of Express Milk, but most of the time that comes home. Okay. It doesn't get drunk.

Yeah. 

[00:06:14] Emma Pickett: So she's eating food, drinking water. Yeah. And I think that's good to just remind people at this age, you know, obviously you're making a choice to bring Express milk in, but that's not necessary. Um, it's possible for them to get by on just food and water at this point, and you don't necessarily need to provide milk.

Yeah. And then you are picking 

[00:06:31] Vicky: her up at what time? So Charlie then picks her up when he finishes work about half past four or five o'clock. 

[00:06:38] Emma Pickett: Okay. So she's home with Charlie until you arrive back. Yeah. And when it's a Gloucester day and you've got that extra long day, is she, she's asleep when you get home?

Is that what? She's 

[00:06:48] Vicky: asleep when I get home and no matter how quiet I am, she knows I'm home. It's like she senses me and so I get home, have a very quick shower, and then I'll just feed her. When I get home, those spidey senses, 

[00:07:01] Emma Pickett: she knows you're in the house. She knows, she senses. She knows. And how did Charlie find doing sort of bedtimes?

So when you are, when you're home, you are still with her all through bedtime and feeding around bedtime. How does Charlie get on with bedtimes? How is that experience for him? 

[00:07:14] Vicky: So this is something I thought, how is he gonna do it? Because she feeds to sleep every night. But she does it, she just goes to sleep and it's actually, he doesn't struggle with it at all.

And. Sometimes, um, they'll be sat on the sofa, like before he takes her up to bed and she'll fall asleep, like cuddling him. And then he just needs to carry her up, which is just unheard of because that doesn't happen with me at all. 

[00:07:41] Emma Pickett: And then when she's not falling asleep on the sofa, he's just carrying her up.

Lying next to her. Yeah. And lying next to her. Yeah. Presumably on the bed where you normally co-sleep. Yeah. 

[00:07:50] Vicky: Yeah. 

[00:07:51] Emma Pickett: So this is really unhelpful, Vicky. 'cause this is way too un. This is unrealistically. This has gone so brilliantly. Well come on Vicky. You not, I know you're not providing an example. I'm just joking.

Obvi. Obviously it's really nice to show people that this is, this really can be how it goes and it, yeah, and it is possible for the parent who doesn't breastfeed. To have a genuinely peaceful, easy time and yeah, and it's not necessarily scary and it's not necessarily overwhelming, and, and she's just chill and, and you know, if he's chill, she's chill.

So yeah. Let's talk about you now. So you've dropped her off at nursery. What time are you getting to the hospital? 

[00:08:26] Vicky: When I'm working in Charna, I drop her, I drop her off at nurse at seven, and then so she goes to a hospital nursery. So it's not in the hospital, but it's just next door. So then I quickly run over, and then I am usually there about 10 past seven to start at quarter pass.

Okay. 

[00:08:45] Emma Pickett: And you are an intensive care nurse. Yeah. Tell us what that means for anyone. We can imagine, 'cause we've all seen TV programs, but tell us what a typical day might be. You've got, you've got a small number of patients under your care, I'm guessing. 

[00:08:58] Vicky: Yeah, it's one-to-one nursing care. Okay. So it's very different.

I've only just started last month in intensive care. So it's very different to what I'm used to from working on a ward where you have sometimes 10 patients to look after. Yeah. I almost thought, oh, how can I possibly be busy just looking after one patient? But you are, you are constantly observing that patient and doing things for that one patient.

[00:09:25] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Okay. When do you get your breakfast? Let's imagine you eating, first of all, do you get, do you get breaks? What's your break slot in that long day? What's a typical break pattern for you? 

[00:09:34] Vicky: So the breaks are very strange at the hospitals. I dunno, definitely Chatham and Gloucester. So you usually have a morning break and then you have an afternoon slash evening break.

So I always would just take a bit of fruit with me. So usually a banana, which I just eat in the car on my way to work. And then I usually have a break around 11 o'clock, so that would be my first break. Um, and then you get another break from about half past four. Five o'clock. 

[00:10:05] Emma Pickett: Okay. Gosh. So you 

[00:10:06] Vicky: don't really 

[00:10:06] Emma Pickett: have a lunchtime then?

There's not. 

[00:10:07] Vicky: So you don't No, it's, so I usually eat my lunch on my morning break and then have my evening a meal for my second break. 

[00:10:15] Emma Pickett: Okay. And million dollar question. Let's talk about your supply protection. So you are somebody breastfeeding responsibly when you're with Evie, so your supply's probably quite up there for someone who's feeding at 14 months and, and you know, especially if you are feeding through the night as well.

How are you organizing things at the moment? 

[00:10:33] Vicky: When I first went back to work, I was having to pump at work three times during a shift. Now I'm pumping twice during a shift. Mm-hmm. Um. And I need to, it's, yeah, but I think because she feeds so regularly, I need to express that milk. 

[00:10:53] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you are walking away from the ward.

Someone else is taking over your patient care. Tell me about your expressing. Where are you going? What kind of pump are you using? What does that look like? 

[00:11:04] Vicky: Shall I go back to the start of when I first went back to work? Yeah, 

[00:11:06] Emma Pickett: go 

[00:11:06] Vicky: ahead. Yep. So when I first went back to my original ward, my manager previously breastfed, so I thought, this is amazing.

So she was really supportive. Um, and you can go over to the, the maternity unit to express, but because it takes so long to get there from my ward, it just wasn't an option. So we had, uh, like a spare room on the wards that I would go into, and it had a little lock. But sometimes we would get patients in there just when we were really busy.

So if that was the case, I'd then have to either go into the like manager's office if she wasn't using it, sometimes have to just go in the toilet. 

[00:11:49] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:11:49] Vicky: But now, only recently we've got expressing rooms at both Chatham and Gloucester. Brilliant. So now I can use those. So before that it was a bit tricky, but now I've got those rooms that I can go to.

Okay. 

[00:12:03] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So in that room, is there a, is that where your pump is kept? Are you keeping it in a locker? Tell me about, I want the absolute fine details. Vicky, you want the fine details. 

[00:12:12] Vicky: So I keep my pump on me in my locker, on the ward. Um, and then in the room we've got, it's very basic. It's just a chair, a fridge, a table, and then the Gloucester one has two chairs with like a curtain divide.

Okay. So two people can use it, whereas the chart number one. It's just got the one, so, so if there was someone in there, I'd have to go somewhere else, but there hasn't been, I haven't had that yet. 

[00:12:39] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you're taking your pump from your locker and what kind of pump are you using? 

[00:12:44] Vicky: It's a modela swing double thing.

Yeah. Okay. 

[00:12:49] Emma Pickett: And you are sitting down in your chair, don't worry, I'm not gonna go into this much fine detail. Yeah. Um, plugging in, how long is your pumping session? 

[00:12:56] Vicky: About 

[00:12:57] Emma Pickett: 10, 15 minutes. Okay. And do you sit on your phone? Do you meditate and think about evie's, cute toes? What are you doing? 

[00:13:06] Vicky: I sit on my phone basically, and it's actually a really nice time to just sit and just stop because when you are so busy, you don't get to do that at work.

So I'm actually really grateful for it because it gives you time to just sit and chill and just have a breather, catch up on some messages. 

[00:13:26] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And are you doing this in your break? Break? No. Are you eating your lunch at the same time? No. You've, no. So you are being assigned mm-hmm. A separate pumping session?

Yeah. And, and that's the choice of your hospital to support you in doing that? 

[00:13:42] Vicky: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:13:43] Emma Pickett: And that means that you have a colleague covering you for that pumping session, as well as covering you for your official break as well? 

[00:13:50] Vicky: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:13:51] Emma Pickett: And then the other pumping session that you're doing with, you're doing two at the moment.

That's also not your lunch slot, that's not your, that's not your late break? No, that's again, a separate break slot. A separate break, yeah. Okay. Brilliant. And is that something you had to push for or is that something that was offered? 

[00:14:06] Vicky: No, it was something that I asked for and was given. They've been very supportive and I found, especially with my new job.

Being a new member of the team, and because the team's so big, because it's one-to-one nursing care, there's so many nurses. So I'm frequently having to explain, I need to go and express. It's not like on my old words, I could just be like, oh, I'm just popping off. Whereas now I have to explain to everyone each time where I'm going and why and but everyone's been really supportive of it.

And they'd be like, yeah, go take as long as you need. Brilliant. That's, that's 

[00:14:48] Emma Pickett: great. That's really 

[00:14:48] Vicky: good to hear. Yeah. 

[00:14:49] Emma Pickett: And, and has anyone talked about there being an end date? I mean, obviously she's not teeny tiny. Mm-hmm. But no one's talking about how long they expect this to go on for as far as you are aware, it's as long as you need.

[00:15:00] Vicky: No, sometimes when I tell people that I need to go and express, they might ask how old Evie is. And sometimes when I say, oh, she's 14 months, they do sort of gimme a, like a look. But no, no, no one's actually said anything. Good. 

[00:15:16] Emma Pickett: Well, though this is a really positive story of, of, you know, the NHS supporting someone on their breastfeeding journey, which is, which is really, really good to hear.

So you're pumping in this room, you're on your phone, you come to the end of your 10, 15 minute slot. What's your sort of typical pumping output? By the way, saying this with the brackets, everyone's gonna be different. I'm not suggesting you, you are the model, but just outta curiosity, what are you pumping in that time?

[00:15:40] Vicky: Per session, maybe 150 mils. 

[00:15:44] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you definitely are up there in terms of your milk production for sure. Yeah. And, and then, and then you're putting that in the fridge? 

[00:15:50] Vicky: Yeah, and then I pop it in the fridge. In the room, yeah. 

[00:15:53] Emma Pickett: Okay. And then what are you doing with your pump? After that first session between that first session and your next pumping session.

[00:15:59] Vicky: So then I pop that pump in the fridge as well with the milk. Okay. And I also have a cool bag with like an ice block, which I keep in the fridge as 

[00:16:08] Emma Pickett: well. Okay. Brilliant. So good example of how. You don't have to wash and sterilize your pump between uses. Yeah. 

[00:16:15] Vicky: Oh, there's no way. 

[00:16:16] Emma Pickett: So some people are worried that that's necessary.

Yeah. But if you are, particularly if Evie's 14 months, you know, she's not premature. She doesn't have any compromised immune system. You know, we know milk is fine in a fridge for several days. Mm-hmm. If you're just literally putting it straight back in a fridge again and washing it the end of the day, that shouldn't necessarily be a problem.

Then your second session pump's already in the fridge, you're walking to the room, you're just taking it out, it's cold. Do you do anything with it to make it more comfortable for pumping? 

[00:16:41] Vicky: No, 

[00:16:42] Emma Pickett: no. It's fine. You're a hard woman. You can manage it. Okay. So popping the pump back on. And what's your sort of typical output for that second session?

[00:16:48] Vicky: Usually around the same. Sometimes maybe a little bit less. 

[00:16:52] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:16:53] Vicky: And then when 

[00:16:54] Emma Pickett: you are in Gloucester. As I said, that is a long day. You're still managing to get through just to two pumping sessions. You're not having to do another one in the evening. 

[00:17:02] Vicky: No, and I think because when I get home, I shower and then feed DV more or less straight away.

She pumps for me, so I don't need to. Yeah, 

[00:17:13] Emma Pickett: okay. And then have you ever had the experience of leaking through your scrubs or being uncomfortable or 

[00:17:20] Vicky: engorged? No. No. When I first went back, I was very worried about that. But no, I haven't. 

[00:17:26] Emma Pickett: Okay. And has there ever been a moment where there's been a crisis with a patient and you've, and you've really struggled to get that pumping session done?

[00:17:33] Vicky: Yeah. Yeah. There has. Um, that's happened quite a lot. Sometimes I've had to pump a lot later than I would've wanted to, but yeah, thankfully it's, it's never led to anything bad, but yeah, that has happened. Okay. What's the latest 

[00:17:50] Emma Pickett: you've done that first pump? Probably about midday. So then end of the working day, you're popping back to the fridge, you're taking your ice, your ice block, and your insulated bag home.

Yeah. So you've got, you know, maybe 250, 300 mls of milk. Yeah. And you mentioned that she's not really drinking the express milk, so your freezer must be. Yeah. Yeah, 

[00:18:12] Vicky: I know, I know. So my mum looks after her on a Monday and when she's with my mum, she does drink milk. Okay. So she does drink it then, but yeah, my freezer is looking quite half.

[00:18:25] Emma Pickett: So maybe Don Milk donation could be in your future at some point. I know I have looked into it. Yeah. Yeah. No pressure. I say that with the, with the hat on of being a trustee of the Human Milk Foundation, the Human Milk Foundation and Heart's Milk Bank will take. Really just a few liters. You don't have to have a massive freezer full.

So, um, you know, they'll do the blood tests and, and do all the screening for someone with renat an enormous amount of milk. 'cause it, even a small amount can really make a difference. And, and at 14 months you absolutely can be a donor for heart's milk bank. I dunno if that's true for every, every milk bank.

Okay. So what you're describing right now sounds like it's working really well. I mean, the system you've got is working really well. Separately from your expressing, how are you finding your work at the, in the, in intensive care, how are you feeling about it? 

[00:19:07] Vicky: Really, really good. Everyone's amazing and really supportive.

It is very overwhelming, especially as newly qualified and to start a completely new, in a completely new department with like the sickest patients in the hospital. But it is really, really good. I am really enjoying it. Yeah. 

[00:19:26] Emma Pickett: Good. And then you get home and you, let's imagine that, you know, you've got a couple of days now when you're not going to be working and you're gonna be breast breastfeeding more.

Do you find that when you go back to work after a couple of days of responsive breastfeeding, your supplies a bit more and you're a bit more engorged and uncomfortable? 

[00:19:43] Vicky: I definitely have a lot more output after days off with ev, um, compared to if I had worked and then I worked again the next day. Yeah.

[00:19:54] Emma Pickett: And the pump that you're using is obviously working for you. Do you ever kind of get nervous that something might happen to it? Have you got like spare valves in your bag or a backup pump? I have 

[00:20:03] Vicky: got, I have, um, got a spare set in my bag. Yeah. Yeah, just the spare parts. I haven't gotten a ve like full pump, but just the spare parts in my bag 

[00:20:13] Emma Pickett: and if worst case scenario your pump broke.

Yeah. Have you thought about what you would do? Are you a hand expressor? I dunno. 

[00:20:19] Vicky: I'm not a hand expressor. I did try and do it once and I was in the toilet when I was out for about 20 minutes trying to express and know it didn't go well. Yeah, so 

[00:20:31] Emma Pickett: my lactation consultant hat on advice would be, have a backup not to buy.

Not to buy another pump because they're not cheap. But even if you just had a hand pump, if you're, or even if you spent a bit more time practicing your hand expressing, I. 'cause if for some reason your pump didn't work Yeah. And it's getting reasonably heavy use over an extended period of time, you could find it's four o'clock in the afternoon.

You've not been able to take any milk out and you are really in trouble. So I would have a think about what you would Yeah, I definitely panic. Then you have a think about. Yeah. Well we don't need to panic if you've got some a, a plan. But even if there's just, you know, really simple hand pump that's stored in that room mm-hmm.

That people can, you know, sterilize and share if they need to as a, an emergency. Just something as a backup, but your system's really working well. Um, let's think back to when you were training. So you say you're newly qualified when you were a student. Life's a little bit more unpredictable and you're moving around a bit more.

How did you get on with protecting your milk supply at that point? So 

[00:21:30] Vicky: I did the apprenticeship route. Have you heard of the nursing associate program? No. 

[00:21:36] Emma Pickett: Tell me about that. 

[00:21:37] Vicky: So it's basically an apprenticeship route route into nursing. So I worked on my ward and went to uni at the same time. 

[00:21:47] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:21:47] Vicky: So my placements were a bit different where I would be based on my ward, and then throughout my training I went on placements, but then I'd always go back to my ward again.

[00:21:58] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:21:59] Vicky: So when I returned back to work, I only had one more placement left and it was in oncology and they were super supportive and they were very much like, take as long as you need to go do what you need to do. So I was really lucky I had such a lovely supportive placement. 

[00:22:16] Emma Pickett: Good. How long did you pause your training during maternity leave?

[00:22:21] Vicky: I went back when Evie was eight months. Okay. 

[00:22:25] Emma Pickett: You were pregnant and training right up until the end? Yes. Okay. When you were thinking about going back, I mean, did you have moments of feeling nervous? Who, I mean, did someone sit you down and go, right, this is what you're gonna do, Vicky. This is how you're gonna organize things.

Where'd you get your information from, and how did you kinda make your plan? 

[00:22:46] Vicky: So going back to work in uni, I really, really struggled with, I wasn't ready to go back. So pumping wise, I also hadn't really needed to pump because I hadn't really been away from ev. I did go away on a Hindu for my cousins, but other than that, I hadn't really been away from her.

So I wasn't really sure what I needed to do. And it was actually my manager at the time who was like, why didn't you set up, uh, expressing schedule so you can think, right, I need to go and express here, here, here. So that's what I did and it worked 

[00:23:25] Emma Pickett: good for your manager. So obviously your manager, your managers have been really, really helpful throughout this whole process.

Yeah. So they kind of talked you through what you needed to do, and you mentioned a while ago that emotionally, the idea of leaving her felt difficult. Tell us about those first few days and how that was for you. 

[00:23:41] Vicky: So I went back to uni before I went back to work. And I basically had to go back to uni at this point in time because I had to finish my training and I couldn't go back any later.

So I felt like I had no choice. I was sort of being made to go back. Okay. And yeah, I just wasn't ready at all. 

[00:24:03] Emma Pickett: Because if you hadn't have gone back then, you'd have had to take a whole year out. Is that how it works? 

[00:24:07] Vicky: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the way, um, the course was like structured. To fit back into where I left off, I had to go back then.

Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, I really, really struggled going back and. Even just dropping EV off at nursery. That first day, I literally cried my whole way to uni and I sat in my car and I thought, I can't get out the car. And I was so lucky that I also had two other friends from my last uni class who had also had babies taken a break and they were coming back at the same time as me.

Oh, that's good. So honestly. We always say to each other, we couldn't have got through it without each other because you, you need it, you need someone who gets it. I finally got out the car that day and I just went to them and they were the same. So yeah, that was really, really difficult. And then I remember that first day at uni as well.

I sat there thinking, why am I just sat here listening for this? Like, you usually don't even get time to go for a Wii. Mm-hmm. And. It was just, I, my, I couldn't get my head around it that it was just so weird. It really was 

[00:25:26] Emma Pickett: that your brain had to go into a different gear that you hadn't, you hadn't used for a while.

[00:25:30] Vicky: Yeah. 

[00:25:31] Emma Pickett: It must have been reassuring though, to know how well Evie was doing at nursery and that, and how well else she was settling in. What, what did the settling in process look like? Did you take her in for a few days before you started? 

[00:25:40] Vicky: Yeah, so she had four settle in sessions before she started. Two of them were with me and then she had two days.

Um, I think she was there for a couple of hours on both days without me. 

[00:25:54] Emma Pickett: So do you think it's because it's a hospital nursery that the staff kind of, I just, it just seems like you've had such a lovely, lovely, it's nursery experience. Yeah. I just wonder whether the fact it's a hospital nursery means that the, maybe the staff are understanding that you are under certain demands.

I'm just wondering Not, I'm not saying other nurseries aren't lovely as well. Mm. It just seems such a positive experience for you. 

[00:26:16] Vicky: It. Oh, it was really good. 

[00:26:17] Emma Pickett: I mean, sometimes I'm hearing people being told, you know, when they do the settling in, they're not even encouraged to stay and they're encouraged to kind of leave them, uh, early on.

I mean, it's lovely to hear that you were able to really stay with her and, and really be, be there with her and what happens when she's not. Well, you mentioned that your mom's able to look after her, but have you ever run into sticky problems with that? 

[00:26:38] Vicky: Yeah, especially when she first started nursery, we had constant nursery bugs.

My mum can have her if she's, if she happens to be sick, then my mum's not working. My dad's had to have her a couple of times as well, and then me and Charlie just take it in. Turns being off if we need to. 

[00:27:01] Emma Pickett: Yep. Yep. I want to tell you about my brand new book called The Story of Jesse's Milky. It's a picture book for two to six year olds, and I wanted to write a book that was about weaning, but also not about weaning, because breastfeeding journeys end in all sorts of different ways.

So Jesse's story is presented as having three possible endings. In one ending, his mom is pregnant and Jesse's going to share his milk with a new baby. In the second, his mom is getting really tired and it's time for some mother led weaning. And in the third, we see a self weaning journey as Jesse's attachment to breastfeeding gradually fades.

There are beautiful illustrations by the very talented Jojo Ford, and the feedback from parents so far has been so lovely and touching and I'm really excited to share the book with you. If you're interested in my other books for Older Children, I have the Breast book, which is a guide for nine to 14 year olds.

And it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And I also have two books about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding for a 10% discount on the last two. Go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code MMPE 10 Makes milk picket Emma 10.

So let's go back in time now. It's my time machine sound effect. Te tell me about early breastfeeding experiences with ev because I know you, you went through quite a lot of challenges. We went through a lot. Yeah. And, and maybe, maybe that's why you're so determined now to keep going because you've, I've sometimes find that when people have overcome challenges, they get to this place of, right, I've bloom and earned this now I'm not gonna give up breastfeeding now.

Literally. Yeah. Tell me about some of the early days. Tell me about her birth. First of all. 

[00:28:51] Vicky: Her birth was, how can I describe it? It wasn't a very nice experience, and long story short, she, I had back labor. I. And for anyone who's ever experienced that will know what I mean when I say it. It is just awful.

[00:29:09] Emma Pickett: Give us the, the nurse terms. If someone's got back labor, the baby's turned. 

[00:29:14] Vicky: So it can be that the baby's turned or it could just Yeah. Be their positioning. I think it's most often when they're back to back, isn't it? Yeah. Evie wasn't back to back. It was just her positioning and it just meant that there was no relief.

It was just constant pain throughout the whole. Labor. So it meant that a lot of my birth, I don't remember because I was just in so much pain. Um, I'm sorry. And then I'm just trying to think. So the labor then went very quickly and Evie got quite distressed, which meant her heart rate dropped and I was also bleeding during labor as well.

So it all got a bit chaotic. And then I had an episiotomy, and Evie was born with, um, uh, VTU. Okay. But even that, I don't really remember much of it, 

[00:30:12] Emma Pickett: which maybe is not necessarily a bad thing. That's your, that's your brain. Yeah. Brain protecting you. Do you have any, any memories of those kind of very early breastfeeds.

[00:30:20] Vicky: No. So my first breastfeed, I don't remember, but I have got a picture. Charlie got a picture and it is probably the most unflattering picture I've ever seen, but I'm so grateful for him for getting it because, yeah, I don't remember it. So we stayed in hospital then overnight, and when we were in hospital, I was expressing into a syringe.

[00:30:43] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:30:44] Vicky: Like Evie wasn't actually feeding from me. And it was only like a few months after I was said to Charlie, like, why were we doing that? Like, and he was like, it's because she wouldn't latch. And I was like, oh. 

[00:30:56] Emma Pickett: And you hadn't remembered that at all. Okay. Wow. 

[00:30:58] Vicky: Interesting. 

[00:30:58] Emma Pickett: Yeah, 

[00:30:59] Vicky: yeah. And I was like, oh my God.

And then the midwives were, they were really good. They were always trying to help me and I struggled as well to even express into the syringe. So they were helping me with that. And then I remember before we got discharged, we got got discharged the following afternoon and I thought, oh, I haven't fed her for a while, so I need to feed her.

So I had asked one of the midwives for some help and she was like, yeah, no problem. And she went off and she came back with a little shot glass of formula and I was like, oh, okay. So I gave Evie that I literally didn't know what I was doing. I thought, oh, I'll give her this. 

[00:31:40] Emma Pickett: Had you had any thoughts in advance about breastfeeding and when, you know, when you were, when you're pregnant, what were you thinking?

[00:31:45] Vicky: Yeah, so I, I wanted to breastfeed, but I was also like, doesn't matter if I can't see what happens, I wasn't around anyone that had breastfed. I didn't really know much about it at my antenatal classes. It wasn't really. Mentioned breastfeeding wasn't really mentioned. It was discussed about colostrum and harvesting colostrum that was talked about, but no, it wasn't, it wasn't really blinding talked about at all.

[00:32:12] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Wow. Says, okay. Okay, so, so when midwife turns out with a shot glass if formula, you're like, yeah, sure. Why not? I mean, yeah, no biggie. 

[00:32:20] Vicky: Yeah. I gave it to her. I gave it to and didn't really know what I was doing, 

[00:32:25] Emma Pickett: but 

[00:32:25] Vicky: you 

[00:32:25] Emma Pickett: were expressing. So you had some sense that breast milk mattered and breastfeeding was important, but you hadn't necessarily decided what you wanted to do.

[00:32:35] Vicky: Yeah. I was also like thinking back now, so shocked that I was even allowed to be discharged. They knew that I wanted to breastfeed at this point, and Evie wasn't breastfeeding. She was being fed through a syringe and I was allowed to just go and be on my way. 

[00:32:52] Emma Pickett: Hmm. Okay, so you got home and how did breastfeeding carry on?

If, do you, when do you start remembering, by the way, tell me if, if I'm asking questions, you dunno the answers to. 

[00:33:01] Vicky: So the first few days are quite blurry. I think it probably is blurry for anyone who's just given birth and got a newborn. 

[00:33:08] Emma Pickett: Did you lose a lot of blood? I'm just wondering whether that was a fact.

You talked about blood loss during your Yeah. Labor. I did 

[00:33:13] Vicky: bleed during labor, but I was never given any blood or anything like that. Okay. So it mustn't have been. Enough, okay. To need it. So then when we got home, Evie would latch. There was times when she would latch, but then there was also times when she wouldn't and I would express into the syringe.

Yeah. And I think we did that for at least the first day we were home. 

[00:33:37] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:33:38] Vicky: And we would also were given her, we had some like pre-made bottles of formula, so we were also. She seemed unsettled after, which I know now is very normal, but we would then give her just a little bit of formula after as well.

[00:33:56] Emma Pickett: Okay. So are you getting any support around why she's not latching? Is anyone helping you out and giving any face-to-face support? 

[00:34:06] Vicky: No. The midwives were coming over to the house at this point. Evie's weight was actually really good. Her first weigh in, she hadn't lost very much weight. 

[00:34:19] Emma Pickett: Wow. Okay. So you must have really been going, going for it with the, with the, the syringes.

[00:34:24] Vicky: I know. Um, so yeah. So they were happy. They weren't, it was never feeding, wasn't even really spoken about with them. 

[00:34:34] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:34:35] Vicky: By a week and a half, Evie was over her birth weight. 

[00:34:38] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:34:39] Vicky: And then on New Year's Day. We had to go into the hospital for one of Eva's checks and um, I was definitely feeding her then we weren't using anymore of the syringes.

I was feeding her. Okay. 

[00:34:53] Emma Pickett: So she got the hang of, how old is she when she really started latching on to consistently? 

[00:34:58] Vicky: It must have been probably about a week. Okay. Maybe a bit sooner. And they had checked EV over. They were really happy with everything. I knew that something wasn't right with me and my episiotomy and I couldn't bring myself to look.

So I had asked the midwife to check for me. So she did, and basically my stitches had came apart. 

[00:35:23] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:35:23] Vicky: So I got sent back to triage with my newborn baby. I remember feeding her literally like before the appointment. After the appointment. Then again, when we got to triage. It was a really, that day was just horrible for us on New Year's Day, but I remember it so well because this new year was just so different for us.

And I'll come to that later, but Okay. 

[00:35:47] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So you had your stitches sorted out. 

[00:35:50] Vicky: Yeah, that was all sorted. And then the plan was for the midwife to come round in a few days to check, and she'd also see Evie at this point. Evie, this is a few days later. So Evie would've been about two weeks old. And Evie started refusing to feed.

So I rang the midwife and I remember I couldn't even speak to her on the phone 'cause I was just so upset. Oh, I'm sorry. So Charlie spoke to her and she came around that day and it's actually really bad. She, so at this point I was expressing milk because Evie wasn't latching, but she was very much saying, it's okay because Eva's weight's really good.

She's getting everything she needs. It doesn't matter if it's Express milk. That's fine, basically. Okay. And yeah. And that was that. 

[00:36:40] Emma Pickett: And how did that feel for her to say that? 

[00:36:42] Vicky: Just awful. It was, yeah. There wasn't any breastfeeding support from her. Yeah. And at this point I was very much, I am breastfeeding.

That's what I was doing. 

[00:36:55] Emma Pickett: So you were looking for solutions, you were looking for someone to help you solve the problem. Yeah. And someone was saying it's not a problem, which is, must feel quite dismissive. 

[00:37:02] Vicky: Yeah. So she then referred us to the health visitor. So then my health visitor came round and she was my hero.

She was amazing. She came round, literally, she just appeared at the door just as I needed her. It was literally as I was trying to feed Evie and she wouldn't feed, and so she came in. I had never met her before, but it was as if we had known each other forever. And she was just so good. She was like, right, come on, we're gonna do this.

And she taught me all these different positions and all these things I didn't know about, and she spent so much time with me and really watched a full feed. And she was amazing. She was what I needed. And she also was like. I'm gonna have a little look at her mouth and I didn't really know what she was doing and she was like, Evie's, tongue tied.

I'm gonna refer you to the infant feeding team. And she gave me some contact details for some breastfeeding support groups. Okay. She was like, go to these groups. Um, that'd be really helpful. She said about the wait, she said it could be a long wait to see the NHS. Tongue tie service. And so she gave me some contacts for some private ones as well.

She was like, I'd recommend just doing that because Eva's obviously struggling to latch. Just go see what they say. And she was able to tell me that she was tongue tied 'cause she was a midwife and she knew a lot about tongue tie. 

[00:38:34] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. Gosh, you lucked out with that health visit, didn't you? She sounds amazing.

Yeah, 

[00:38:39] Vicky: she was some sort of hero, honestly. She was amazing. So we went private and we went and got her tongue tied done. When she was two and a half weeks, there wasn't really much to it. It was more or less we went in. He asked some questions about the birth, her weight, things like that. And he did it. And then we went, there was no like aftercare or anything like that.

Okay. And so after that, EV would then latch, which was brilliant, but it was just so painful. I was having like really cracked nipples, really horrible. Um, so I thought, why don't I take myself to one of these groups that the health is set about? So I did. And when I was there, she was amazing. It was the only struggle was there was quite a lot of us there, so she didn't have much time to go around to everyone, but she did help.

She taught me about laid back feeding, which was amazing. So that was helpful. And you're getting pain free at this point? No. No, dear. No. So I then rang my gp. It must have been maybe a couple of weeks after. 'cause I was still in pain and my nipples were not in a good way. So I just spoke to a GP over the phone and they were like, it sounds like fresh.

Of course. 

[00:39:57] Emma Pickett: So this is a bit controversial, Vicky. I dunno if you've, if you have any, you probably don't have time to listen to my podcast, which I understand. But we did an episode recently with Naomi, who's a doctor who talked a bit about thrush and breastfeeding. Yeah, so it's a bit of, it's, it's a bit complicated because thrush diagnosis is still happening, but the direction we're going in is it, look, it looks like actually thrush, nipple thrush isn't really a thing.

Yeah. Which I, I dunno how it feels to hear me say that, whether that feels dismissive. Did you No, absolutely. Go ahead with absolutely thrush treatment. What happened? Yeah. 

[00:40:27] Vicky: So if I had known now what I know I wouldn't love, but I did and it didn't help it benefit, it made things worse. And so I rang the doctors back and asked for a swab to be done, which they did, and that came back.

It took ages to come back because I had to then do another swab because they had lost it anyway, that came back and it was a staph infection. 

[00:40:55] Emma Pickett: Okay, so all that pain overall that time? Yeah. That's a long time to be struggling. And then, so you were given topical treatment at that point? 

[00:41:03] Vicky: So I was then put on antibiotics, oral 

[00:41:06] Emma Pickett: antibiotics.

Okay. Okay. But no cream for your nipples? Nothing directly onto the nipples. 

[00:41:11] Vicky: I was with the fresh, which it wasn't fresh, obviously, but No, no cream with the Okay. Staff. No. So then at three months, I was still in so much pain. Eva was refusing to feed a lot. I was like, I can't do this anymore. And I messaged my mum like, please come over.

I can't stop crying. I dunno what to do. So mum came over and she was like, Vicky, you can't carry on like this. You need to. You really need to think about stopping. It's, you've done amazing. And everything she was saying to me was, she was trying to help, but it wasn't helping me because I wanted to breastfeed.

Yeah. So after that, I did a video call. Um, my local breastfeeding support group also does one-to-one video calls. Okay. So I did one of those. Um, we took Evie to an osteopath. She went for a few sessions and every, it was still, there was still so much pain. And it went on until Evie was four months. And then, then I contacted an I-B-C-L-C.

She came round, um, and she was also a tongue tie practitioner, is that the right word? Yeah. Yep. And so she. Helped me with some different positions, and she looked in Eva's mouth and did lots of things. And then she said that Evie was tongue tied 

[00:42:35] Emma Pickett: as if the procedure hadn't been done. It looked like it as if it 

[00:42:38] Vicky: hadn't been done.

Okay. Okay. Yeah, and she didn't want to do anything about it because she wanted to try for a couple of weeks trying these tips that she had given me to see if there were any improvements and if not, she was gonna come back. So that was the plan. Evie was then basically before that she was refusing to feed on one side in particular.

Okay. But after I saw her, she then would feed from that refuse side. Okay. With these tips that she gave me. So in my head I was like, this is amazing. I. I'm in pain, but it's fine because she's feeding. It doesn't matter. 

[00:43:14] Emma Pickett: So the staph infection's gone at this point and, and, yes. Yeah. And but you're still sore, you're still uncomfortable.

Still getting damage. Gosh, this is a long time to be in pain. 

[00:43:24] Vicky: Oh yeah. I know. It's, it's a lot. A couple of weeks after I saw her, we went to Spain for a wedding. The first half of the holiday was fine. She was feeding fine. I was still in pain, but she was feeding. And then the second half of the holiday, she started refusing to feed from that one side again, and I thought, I've had enough.

I'm, I can't do this anymore. Um, so whereas before she refused to feed on that side, I would pump. Whereas on holiday you're obviously out and about all the time. I thought, I'm not going back to the hotel room to pump, I'm not doing it. So the only way I could get her to feed from that side was as she was waking up, I would have to very quickly put her on and she would feed.

Okay. Yeah. So then we left Spain and I got mastitis from the refuse side. Yeah. So when we got back, I contacted the I-B-C-L-C to come round again and I got an out of office to say she was on holiday. Oh, I thought this isn't good. So we powered through and I waited and I kept thinking, she's gonna be back on this date, it's fine.

So then I still hadn't heard anything from her, so I sent her a text and I just said, are you able to come around and help us? Um, and she applied straight away and she was like, how old is Evie now? And I said, she's nearly six months, and she didn't reply to me. And then I took that as Eva's too old. Now it's too late to do anything.

I became embarrassed and I. I didn't wanna tell anyone then that I was in pain and I just sort of, 

[00:45:09] Emma Pickett: oh, Vicky. Yeah. I just sort of carried on. You're getting these, these amazing highs and lows in terms of the Yeah. The people you're meeting, so, oh, so you're many, you're meeting these amazing women who are transforming your breastfeeding experience and then, yeah, and then you're get not getting communication and other places.

It must have been so frustrating. 

[00:45:25] Vicky: Yeah, I thought, I know Evie's got a tongue tie because she's told me she's got a tongue tie. Why don't I go back to the man who did the. First tongue tie, see what he thinks. So I took her back and he was like, yeah, she's definitely got her tongue tie. He got her old notes out and was like, it's literally the exact same.

He does his in like percentages. Okay. So hers was 80% tongue tied and he was like, yeah, it's still 80%. So he did it again. Um, and he said, this time I want you to do these exercises. So we did, and as I was doing them, I could see it reattaching. No. Yeah. But I just kept thinking it's fine, but go with it.

She's gonna be on solids, like eating solids really well soon. She probably won't wanna breastfeed very much and if, if it's not affecting her, it's fine. Anyway, so then as she was starting solids. She couldn't lift the food from her tongue. It was just sitting on the bottom of her tongue. Okay. And I thought, we've gotta do something about this.

And I managed to get a picture of her tongue when she was asleep because she sleeps well. She slept with her tongue at the bottom of her mouth. And I saw a video on Foxing the Moon, where you massage the baby's chin, okay? And it sort of lifts their tongue up. So I did that and I got a picture and I sent it to him and he was like, yeah, come and see me.

So we went back and it was such a tricky, tricky decision. I didn't know what to do. 

[00:47:07] Emma Pickett: You're talking about the decision to do a third division, which is not a common scenario at all. Yeah, yeah. And 

[00:47:12] Vicky: he even said he's never had to do this three times, but yeah, it was just because she couldn't even, like with solids, she literally couldn't lift her tongue to.

So anyway, we went ahead of it and he did it again, and since then we've had no more. Like nipple pay, like thank nipple pain. Thank for that. Thank you. I know. 

[00:47:36] Emma Pickett: Thank, I'm so relieved. I'm so well, and I'm quite glad we did this conversation opposite way around. So I, I knew the ending already. I knew that you were breast getting successfully at 14 months, but I have to say, I had this horrible lingering feeling that you were gonna tell me.

Oh yeah, we're, we're in pain today. I'm, I'm still in pain at 14 months, so I'm so relieved to hear you say that that's not the case. Wow. Okay. Yeah, so third division, as I said, really not common. Some practitioners would be extremely reluctant to do that, but if it was impacting on her solids eating, obviously it really was quite fundamental.

Yeah. Um, so you were pain free after that, that that procedure? 

[00:48:10] Vicky: Yeah, after that it was so much better. And I was like, this is what Breastfeeding's supposed to feel like, and. Yeah, it took us, I think it was about seven and a half months. 

[00:48:21] Emma Pickett: But then you are back at, you're back at uni a couple of weeks after that.

My goodness. So you were literally, 

[00:48:26] Vicky: yeah, it was seven and a half months. I had my return to uni meeting, and that was when I started to be pain free. Yeah. So 

[00:48:33] Emma Pickett: your whole maternity leave. Was breastfeeding challenges, refusal mastitis. Three divisions. Yeah. Bmy. That was tough. That is a tough maternity leave.

[00:48:46] Vicky: It was so hard, but it was also amazing. We had some such amazing times as well. It wasn't all horrible, but feeding wise it was really, really challenging. 

[00:48:57] Emma Pickett: I'm just so relieved that you were pain free when you finally had to go back to uni. 'cause how can you imagine doing that on top of being in pain? I know.

Crikey. Okay. Wow. You're a bit of a trooper. Vicky. I hope you don't mind me using a word like trooper, which has been N but you're obviously a very determined person to, and what was, what was Charlie feeling through this? You mentioned that your mom said, Hey, let's not bother with this breastfeeding LA anymore.

What was Charlie doing? 

[00:49:21] Vicky: Charlie was amazing. He was also very much like, you are in pain. You don't need to carry on doing this. We can give her formula. It doesn't matter. You've done amazing. Um, but he was also very supportive. When I was like, no, I want to breastfeed. He was like, okay, well let's make it work.

And it was always him that would like ring when we had to take her for her tongue tight. He would ring, he'd made the appointment. Yeah. So he's been amazing. He's really supportive of it. 

[00:49:52] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So it's not cheap. I mean, paying to see, I mean, I'm guessing that when you see someone three times, you're not paying the full fee all three times.

[00:49:59] Vicky: Uh, you do get a slightly reduced rate, but it is still very expensive. Yeah. That 

[00:50:04] Emma Pickett: is not cheap. So you never saw an NHS tongue tie service at any point? No. You just went down the private route and the lactation consultant that never applied to you, did you ever have contact with 'em again? No, I haven't.

Okay, well maybe they, maybe they're listening to this story. Maybe something happened. Who knows? I mean, we can't make assumptions, but, uh, you know, um, I hope that's not the case. I hope that, um, you just fell to the bottom of the list and she, um, I hope so. Rather than some horrible silence, meaning anything meaningful.

So that is a story of persistence and determination. And I'm kind of curious as to where your drive came from, because at the very beginning it sounds as though. You didn't really have a lot of breastfeeding experience in your family. The antenatal classes weren't really making it seem significant. You know, you were giving a formula in the hospital without really worrying about that, but Yeah.

But somewhere this drive to breastfeed came from. Do can, if you, if you try and put that into words, can you explain where, where that change happened? 

[00:51:04] Vicky: I dunno if it part of it was from my birth because I was so. My birth was so outta my control and it ended in a way I didn't want and I didn't remember so much of it.

Whereas with feeding, I could, it sort of healed that a bit. Does that make sense? And no, it might makes perfect 

[00:51:28] Emma Pickett: sense. 

[00:51:28] Vicky: Yeah. And I could control it. I could be like, no, I am going to breastfeed and it's what I wanted to do. And. Yeah, my, I just think back before when I was like, oh, I don't care. I just, if I can breastfeed, I will, but it just changes when you are doing it.

It just completely changes. My mindset completely changed and now I am just, everything, it's just about breastfeeding, like I'm addicted to it and, and now I can help other people. So like friends of friends and. There's been a couple of people, I've helped them with their breastfeeding and then they've messaged me like, you've helped me so much, and it's just such a nice feeling to be able to help someone else so they don't go through what you went through.

[00:52:17] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Well as a nurse, if you want to become an I-B-C-L-C one day, you know, if you've already got the nurse degree, that's actually much more straightforward to become an I-B-C-L-C from that position. No pressure. 'cause you've got a lot of other things on your plate. Um, just outta curiosity, have you ever had a patient in, in intensive care who's lactating?

Is that something you've ever had to deal with yet? No. Okay. But may, maybe one day you'll be there with your pump helping someone protect their milk supply. Oh, I'd love that. Yeah. And you'll be the person to do it. I'd be straight there. Yeah, you'd absolutely be the person to do it. You'd really be there to, as an advocate.

So I'm really, I'm really pleased to hear the positive ending to this story. And as I said, because we started backwards, we had all the positive stuff first. Is there anything about your work situation that you would want to, to be different? Like if you had lots of money and you were able to kinda change policies or create rooms or buildings, is there anything missing in your current breastfeeding at work story?

[00:53:11] Vicky: I feel like compared to some trusts, we're actually doing really well. Yeah, these breastfeeding rooms, not breastfeeding rooms. Expresso rooms are very new. They only came in the last couple of weeks. So before that I was sometimes having to pump in the toilets, but now we've got these zooms, they're brilliant.

They're just, they've got a little codes that to the door, so no one else can get in unless you have the code. I do feel very lucky 'cause I know some trusts don't get that. 

[00:53:41] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean there are are some horror stories out there actually, but actually we can actually hear in your voice what a difference that support makes.

Yeah. And how getting that lactation support helps you to be a more effective nurse. I. And a more effective professional. It's, you know, this is not trimmings around the edges. This is not, you know, optional extras that don't matter. The, this really does make a difference to your quality of life when you've got the right lactation support and also the attitude of your manager.

I mean, and one day you'll probably be a senior member of staff helping someone else with their lactation journey. Oh, you never know, do you? Well, I do know. I'm pretty sure that's gonna happen. Um, but just really shows how having some a person makes all the difference and the fact that she was literally the person that sat you down or helped you organize your expressing schedule.

I mean, what an example of what a manager can be. 

[00:54:26] Vicky: Oh, definitely. Yeah. 

[00:54:27] Emma Pickett: Thank you so much, Vicky, for sharing your story. There are some people who are listening to your, the first half of your story thinking, oh, blind me. That sounds a bit, that's intense. I can't do that. Not everyone is able to push through in the way that you have, so you are amazing, but you're also an example of how there are answers out there.

And you don't have to accept, oh no, you are fine. Just express it. Doesn't matter. You don't have to accept that. You can push, you can push, you can find the right people, you can find the solutions, and, and you absolutely did. So that's great to hear. I'm very best of luck with the continuation of your working and breastfeeding journey.

[00:55:00] Vicky: Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, let me know 

[00:55:01] Emma Pickett: how things go. I mean, I'll be curious to hear how your, how your weaning goes. Even if I don't hear from you for several years. Get back in touch and let, and let me know. 

[00:55:08] Vicky: Yeah, I will do. Thank you so much. Oh, thanks, Vicky.

[00:55:13] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.