Babywearing and breastfeeding

Many breastfeeding parents also choose to carry their baby in a sling or wrap as they go about their day. There are so many carriers out there to choose from that it can be an overwhelming decision. That’s where my guest today can help. 

Lizzy Allen  is a babywearing consultant, but she's also a breastfeeding peer supporter, trained with the ABM. She runs Chester Sling Library, which offers support to families in person in Chester and in Northeast Wales and also online to families around the UK.

We’re talking today about babywearing, how to choose a carrier that suits you and your baby, and most importantly about the safety of babywearing and breastfeeding.

You can find Lizzy online at www.chesterslinglibrary.co.uk/ and @‌chester_sling_library on Instagram.

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Lizzy recommends - 

https://www.carryingmatters.co.uk/2017/08/05/breast-bottle-feeding-safely-sling/

Finding a sling library https://www.carryingmatters.co.uk/sling-pages/

@‌babywearingeducationnetwork on Instagram

Youtube creators @‌SouthEastSlings @‌TheBabywearingAcademy @‌carryingmatters @‌SheenSlings  @‌SouthEssexSlings @‌Wrapyouinlove

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm really happy to be joined by Lizzy, Lizzy Allen, who is a baby wearing consultant.

And as you'll have seen from the title of the episode, we're gonna be talking about baby wearing. We're gonna be talking about it generally because it's often such a key part for breastfeeding families and key part of their early parenting experiences. But we'll also talk a little bit about breastfeeding and baby wearing specifically as well.

Just to say I'm a massive fan of baby wearing I, my daughter went in a pram once in her first year of life. She was in a sling every other time. Anytime we went in the pram was because her older brother wanted to use the buggy board. That was it Once. Poor woman, she was a very happy in her sling. She loved it to bits and it made a huge difference to our parenting experiences.

Um, so I'm really glad to be able to talk to Lizzy today. So Lizzy is a baby wearing consultant, but she's also a breastfeeding peer supporter, trained with the A BM, that's the Association of Breastfeeding mothers. And she runs Chester Sling Library, which offers support to families in person in Chester and in Northeast Wales and also online to families around the uk.

But we'll talk a bit more about how that works later. Thank you very much for joining me today, Lizzy. Thank you for having me. 

[00:01:54] Lizzy Allen: It's lovely to be here. 

[00:01:55] Emma Pickett: So sorry that was a bit of a meaty introduction. I just wanted to flag up how much I love baby wearing myself and I wasn't an expert. I've never done any formal training, but I just know it just makes such a difference, particularly parents of two when you've got a newborn and a toddler.

Wow. I dunno if, I don't think I would've survived with that baby wearing, but I know there are so many other times when it's valuable as well. When someone asks you. What a baby wearing consultant does. What's your answer? Tell us a little bit about how you would define your job and, and what kind of training you've had.

[00:02:24] Lizzy Allen: Essentially, a baby wearing consultant is a person who can support you to, uh, carry your baby in a sling or carrier safely, uh, and comfortably and support you with, with all the, the associated things with that. Just like in the breastfeeding world, there are different levels of training for baby wearing.

So there are baby wearing peer supporters. So I did that training quite a long time ago, 2017 I think. And then the baby wearing consultant is like the next level of training, which I did in 2020. 

[00:03:00] Emma Pickett: Okay. And you've got organizations that kind of accredit training are there like organization, national and international organizations.

[00:03:07] Lizzy Allen: Most training is not actually accredited. I think there is one training school in the UK which is accredited. Um, the school of baby wearing. There are other trainers like Slinger Baby, who I trained with and carrying matters who I'm actually doing another course with at the moment that it's not accredited, it's just based on the extensive knowledge, um, and experience of the trainers.

[00:03:32] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, when you're doing your training, it must be really tricky to keep up to date with all the different products. 'cause there are so many on the market. I mean, you must spend your entire life looking at the internet going, oh, there's another new one. Oh my God. Yeah. I mean, how, how do you keep up to date?

What's the sort of typical week like for you? 

[00:03:48] Lizzy Allen: There are so many kinds of things. The good thing from my perspective is that most of them, so in terms of buckle carriers, most of them work in a very similar way. So you're not having to relearn completely from scratch for every new carrier. They might have different features and slight differences, but on the whole, it's not massively different to use a different brand or a different model.

There are some that are totally weird and yeah, some, sometimes, occasionally there'll be a new carrier, which is quite different the way that you use it. They might come up with novel things. Sometimes it feels slightly like, uh, for the sake of being different or when, yeah, like the typical kinds of carriers work very well and you can make a slight difference to that for whatever function or, you know, the marketing point of that, uh, carrier that you, you want to bring to market.

In terms of kind of staying up to date with all the, the new releases and that kind of thing. There are a lot of, um, very active baby wearing consultants on Facebook. So we have like groups where we chat and we share the news of all the, the new slings and what people have tried. We have little tours, so if a new sling or carrier is released, it can be sent around the country to various sling libraries.

So we can give it a try before we decide whether we want to, to purchase one for our own sling library or consultancy. 

[00:05:23] Emma Pickett: Okay. And the, and the training itself, is that something when you did your peer support training for example, is that something that you have to do in person or can Is, does modern technology mean you can make it work online?

[00:05:33] Lizzy Allen: Yeah, so I did mine in person 'cause it was long ago before the days of people doing things online so much. But nowadays, yes, there are in person peer supporter courses. There are in-person consultancy courses, but there are also online ones. So you can do, I think there's one peer supporter course, which is like self-paced, where you work through online.

There are other ones which are like Live Zooms. Okay. And there are also hybrid courses where you do some work online, some live Zooms, and some in person as well. 

[00:06:10] Emma Pickett: Okay, cool. Huh? There's a lot going on. It's a big world. I know when you go in, when you go into some, I'm, I'm a member of some of the baby wearing Facebook groups.

'cause I think as a lactation consultant it's important to kinda have some idea of what's going on. Yeah. And it's, it's such a big community. There's so many people out there and, and I just think of all those new parents that, you know, go to Boots or John Lewis and buy the one sling without realizing what's out there.

And I think that's what makes library so brilliant that you can really help parents understand a range of products that they're not gonna come across anywhere else. Tell us a little bit about setting up the library. How did you first set that up and what kind of services do you offer? 

[00:06:43] Lizzy Allen: So I was very lucky in that I kind of inherited Chester Sling library from the previous owners, so I didn't have to set it up from scratch, which was brilliant.

I had been volunteering with Chester Sling Library since 2016, so even before I did my peer support training, I helped out with like admin and welcoming people and that kind of thing. And so I kind of had got to understand how it all worked before I took it over, which was very nice. And I was able to bulk purchase the slings from, from the previous owner.

And then over the years, the last five years that I've been running it, I have retired. You know, all the slings purchased loads of new ones. It's quite a different, uh, stock now from what it was when I, when I first started running it. So yeah, I was, I was very fortunate that it wasn't all from scratch. The thing that did make it tricky was that I started running the sling library just before we went into lockdown.

So it was kind of end of February, beginning of March, I think, 2020. And within weeks I couldn't run the sling library sessions anymore. I couldn't do anything in person. And so that was when I first started doing things online. So all the sling library sessions stopped. I couldn't see anyone face-to-face, but I heard about Zoom and so I made lots of use of Zoom and I was able to still talk to families, help them to, um, choose a sling online, and then they could either come and pick it up from my house.

Contactless or I could post slings to them. So I did that a lot during the pandemic. 

[00:08:29] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I bet you were busy at the post office, I'd imagine. I, I 

[00:08:32] Lizzy Allen: remember I was, I was heavily pregnant at the time as well, so my second was born in June, 2020, so I remember like going to the very long queue at the post office with my older child who was four at the time, very pregnant with like arm fulls of slings to post them.

Yeah. With a mask on. Of course. 

[00:08:53] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So, so how many slings does the library actually have in total? 

[00:08:58] Lizzy Allen: I have got, I can't remember exactly, but it's something over a hundred, like 110 maybe. Something like that. Okay. And that covers everything from. Newborn slings right up to preschool, or even they call them preschool carriers, but realistically you can probably fit a 6-year-old in them.

Okay, so there's, there's a lot. 

[00:09:19] Emma Pickett: So somebody gets in touch with a library, books a slot, like an appointment slot to come and see you in person if they want to see you in person. And how long are those slots normally? 

[00:09:28] Lizzy Allen: So I offer everything from a quick kind of 15 minutes fit check. If someone's got their own sling and they just want to check that they're using it properly, or if someone knows what they want to hire, pretty much, and then they can just come and pick it up, check it works, everything from that up to an hour consultation, which I tend to do either at my house or at somebody else's house.

Locally, I, I can travel to people, which is really helpful for people who've never done baby wearing before. If there's any medical conditions or if they've got twins or they just want a bit more time in a quiet place, it's really nice to be able to take that bit longer with them and do that full consultation.

And when people come to Sling Library, most people come for about half an hour. 

[00:10:19] Emma Pickett: Okay. And then you also, obviously you started doing online work in the pandemic, which you've just discussed, but you ca, you've carried on doing online work, and am I right that you can support families across the UK and do online support and post things out?

[00:10:31] Lizzy Allen: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, it started in the pandemic, but I've carried on doing it because it just works well for what some people need. Even sometimes people locally, somebody not too long ago, they've had twins and they had another child and I'd seen them in person before, but they wanted to talk more.

So online was fantastic for that. It also works really well if somebody has got their own sling and they want a fit check. Or I sell slings in my online shop and every purchase comes with a free video call. So they get some help using the sling. They've not just bought it like they do from John Lewis, and then they're left on their own to, to figure out what to do.

Yeah. Or I can demonstrate a variety of slings and carriers to people over Zoom, and then they can decide which one they might like to hire, and then I can post it to them, so, okay. 

[00:11:28] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Okay, let's, let's take a hypothetical. Let's imagine one particular mom. Let's say she's never used a sling before and she's starting from scratch with a newborn.

How does that first conversation work? Let's imagine she wants to baby wear, but she literally hasn't got a clue. How do you support her to make that decision around how to get started? 

[00:11:47] Lizzy Allen: Yeah, so it's quite common that people will come and see me when they haven't got a clue, which is actually really nice because you can support them like from the very beginning of their baby wearing journey.

You don't have to help them kind of undo things that they've done, which weren't quite right, or they might have had a bad experience. So I really love it when people come and they, they haven't even researched fresh. Yeah, they're fresh, clean sheets of paper. They're virgins, baby wearing virgins. I can show them like the different kinds of slings, um, like the advantages and disadvantages of advantages of all the different kinds.

Um, because it is, it is so overwhelming. I remember. Being pregnant and researching slings and like talking to like colleagues and friends who'd already had babies and used slings and feeling totally overwhelmed and spending a very, very long time researching things. 

[00:12:44] Emma Pickett: What was your very first sling, your tell, tell me about your very first positive experience.

[00:12:48] Lizzy Allen: I bought, um, a Boba stretchy wrap when I was pregnant on the recommendation of, of a work colleague, and I absolutely loved it, so I managed to use it pretty well by myself watching videos and things like that. And then this is how I first got involved in the Sling Library actually, is because I then visited Chester Sling Library as a customer when my baby was about three months old, when I was looking for the next thing after the stretchy wrap.

And I, I tried everything that they had, which is very nice and very helpful, but there's no other way to really see and understand. What is available because the shops don't stock it. Looking online is, it's hard because you can't feel what it's like. You don't know what it feels like on your body. And things are very individual as well.

So if you've had friends or family recommended things that they absolutely loved, then it might not be the right thing for you. 

[00:13:51] Emma Pickett: Yeah, and some of the best slings don't really have the marketing budget. I would, I know that sounds really obvious, but some of those niche companies that may be are, you know, made by individuals or, or you know, other companies that don't have a lot of money to spend on promotion, you're not gonna see them with their big contracts and department stores.

So my very first, I don't, I even wanna say sling 'cause it's more of a carrier. This is like 20 years ago now as a baby. Beyond, do you remember that? The old one without the back panel. And I thought, this is, uh, this is it. I'm, uh, getting in touch with my, you know, African roots. This is, this is the thing, and gosh, your shoulder's ache.

I had, you know, a fairly chunky baby. Weeks in, I was in pain thinking, is this how it's meant to be? So second time around, I definitely knew that things could be different and went down the ring sling route and the, and the, I had a little sort of pouch, um, the shoulder thing. That was one piece. But what you're saying about it being individual is really important.

I think because I could not get my head around stretchy wraps because I've got a little bit of a spatial awareness problem. I'm the kind of person that doesn't know left and right, walks out the shop and goes the wrong direction down the street. Um, so when, when I'm a bit baby brained and a bit sleep deprived, doing a stretchy wrap takes a heck of a lot of brain power.

And I can feel myself beginning to get panicked. So I needed something a little bit simpler. But for other people, stretchy wraps are the absolute dream and, and makes such a difference to parenting. Tell me about some of your favorite things about baby wearing. So if we were doing a little baby wearing advert.

What are some of the things that you love about it most? 

[00:15:18] Lizzy Allen: I just love that it gives you so much freedom. I think personally, I, I value that so much, and I remember the amazing feeling of like having my baby in a stretchy wrap and being able to do things for myself as well. Like, I could go for a little walk, I could feed myself, get a drink, go to the toilet, but you're not compromising what your, your baby's needs as well.

I think that's what's so beautiful about it, is that it's meeting the needs of your baby to be close to you because that is their safe place, their safe space. They can feel the warmth of your body, that lovely kind of cozy enveloping feeling of the sling. And they can hear your heartbeat and your voice, and it's all very familiar.

It's, yeah, their natural place to be is on you. But then at the same time, in our modern society, we spend so much time on our own with our babies, and if you can't meet your own needs as well, then that can be really, really tough. It, it can make you feel very isolated. And if you, yeah, if you sitting there and feeling trapped under your baby, that's not a nice place to be, like emotionally or mentally as well.

So I absolutely love baby wearing, it's why I've been involved in it for so long. I thought that by now I might like, have moved on from the love of baby wearing onto something else. But I, I still love it and I, I love helping families to kind of get that amazing feeling of, as well, of feeling. Empowered that they've got this tool to use for their parenting, which supports them and it supports their baby as well.

[00:17:00] Emma Pickett: Yeah. It's that both people's needs at the same time. You've absolutely nailed it. That's what's magic about it, isn't it? That feeling of freedom and literally being hands free. But you also know it's your baby's favorite place too. And my, my daughter, I talked about her being in a pram once in her first year of life.

Her default was to being in the sling all day long, all day long. And she was a much better sleeper than her older brother and became a much more independent sleeper. Not that independent sleeping is the most important thing, but you know, curiously, because she spent so much time in the sling and felt very safe, you know, moving in and outta sleep states, and she just had more of a sort of confident approach to sleep and, and ended up sleeping much better than her, than her brother.

And I actually genuinely believe, and you can tell me if you think I'm bananas. She's such a confident teenager today, and I genuinely believe that it was baby wearing that gave her that foundation and she just, you know, she had her mommy cup completely filled. Yeah. And just raced around the world, you know, from then on.

I mean, she, you know, she was in a sling probably most of the time for the first couple of years. You know, I was still baby wearing her occasionally three and four. But she's just such an independent, confident person. And I do think that made all the difference. But we've got some research, haven't we, that says that baby wearing reduces crying time.

Is that, am I remembering that right? Yes. 

[00:18:15] Lizzy Allen: Because when you've got your baby so close to you, you can pick up on their cues so easily. Like, um, with feeding, we're gonna talk about breastfeeding in slings in a bit, but just carrying your baby in a sling is beneficial for breastfeeding because they're so close and you can, yeah, you can tell when they're hungry.

I. Because they're being comforted and developing that secure attachment, they're not having to cry, they're not having to get your attention or getting into a state where they're so worked up that they are crying because you're there and you can, you can meet all their needs much more easily and quickly.

[00:18:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Okay. So I'm just gonna ask you a slightly tricky question, which I realize is a little bit ambitious 'cause there are so many slings out there. But if, if you had to kind of group slings into sort of the main types of slings or carriers, what are the kind of main groups that we're looking at? 

[00:19:09] Lizzy Allen: Yes, there are lots, but the main types as like in the UK that people use are buckle carriers.

So that's any kind of carrier that's got clips on it. Typically, they have a waistband with a clip on, but not all do. Um, some of them are like a harness style, like a baby Bern where you put the whole thing on, um, like over your head and then put your baby in. Other ones have kind of a rectangular shaped panel which comes up, your baby's back with straps coming off it, which then you clip in.

So buccal carriers are very common within that category. There are so many different types from really soft ones that have been designed for newborns that almost mimic a stretchy wrap to more structured typical buckle carriers that you can use from baby to toddlerhood. And then they make toddler sized car carriers and preschool sized carriers.

And some companies will even make like larger custom carriers so that if you have a child that needs or wants to be carried beyond the size that the, that most, uh, carriers will fit, then you can do that, which is really fantastic. Outside of, um, buckle carriers, stretchy wraps, which we've mentioned are really popular for newborns.

They come in different types. There are lots of different brands. Some of them are what we call two-way stretchy, so they stretch along the width and the length of the fabric, so they're really stretchy and they're the easiest type of stretchy wrap to use. There are also one-way stretchy wraps. A couple of big brands are one-way stretchy wraps as well.

And also the Scottish baby Box wrap. That's a one-way stretchy wrap. 

[00:20:53] Emma Pickett: Okay. Gonna pause you for a second there, Lizzy. So the, the baby box that, so every newborn baby in Scotland gets a stretchy wrap. That, isn't it amazing. That is epic. It really is. That was epic. I wonder how they had that conversation to decide which product to use.

Do you know how they made that decision? 

[00:21:10] Lizzy Allen: I'm not sure. I think that they decided on a one-way stretchy wrap because it can be used from birth, but because they're not quite so stretchy as the two-way stretchy wraps, they can typically be used a little bit longer. I. So they're a bit more supportive. They tend to be than a two-way stretchy wrap.

So, 

[00:21:31] Emma Pickett: okay. 

[00:21:32] Lizzy Allen: In the hope that then the families can use them a bit longer and it probably came down to cost as well. They tend to be lower cost and some other, other kinds. 

[00:21:42] Emma Pickett: Okay. Sorry. Thank you for the interruption. So we've got buckle carriers, we've got stretchy wraps. What else are you missing? We 

[00:21:49] Lizzy Allen: have woven wraps.

These can be very fancy, but they definitely don't have to be, so they're thicker than a stretchy wrap, not stretchy. So it's a rigid fabric, but they come in many different fabrics, many different designs. People can get really into woven wraps. It can almost become a hobby having, you know, like different blends, different brands.

They're very, very versatile. So there is more to learn to use a woven wrap, but one rep can take you from. That tiny newborn baby all through the toddler years and to when your child doesn't want to be carried anymore. So they can sound very complicated and expensive, but it definitely doesn't have to be.

They can be very comfortable and versatile and you can pick up really good secondhand wraps for not very much at all. You know, like 30, 40 pounds, that kind of thing. So people are often put off by woven wraps, but with a little bit of time and effort, they can be absolutely fantastic. 

[00:22:55] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:22:56] Lizzy Allen: Related to woven wraps are ring slings.

So these are typically a length of woven wrap fabric with two rings sewn into one end, and you thread the fabric kind of through the rings and that secures it. So you've got a pouch that you can carry your baby in. It's one shouldered. They are, again, something that you can use from birth right up to.

When your child doesn't want to be carried anymore. There are some ring slings that aren't made out of woven wraps. They can be like a thinner fabric, which can be nice as well. But most of them, um, yeah. Are the woven wraps. 

[00:23:32] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I had my daughter in a, in a Meyer wrap, which is a ring sling and she was napping at three in that.

Oh, that's really nice. And she was not small and we, we even had it so she could almost lie down and like the whole length of her body went across my body. And I'm not a big person, but I managed to make that, make, make that work. I'm sorry, I'm keep telling you about my memories of baby work. It's really nice.

They're so vivid. They're so vivid that they really stick with you. Okay, so have we missed any particular family of rats? The 

[00:24:01] Lizzy Allen: other one that's quite common are may eyes or be dies and half buckles. So these are carriers. They're superficially quite like a buckle carrier in that they have a panel, they have a waistband and they have shoulder straps.

So with a may eye, you can tie the waistband on around you with a half buckle. You clip it in, so you've got a buckle waist, and then you've got the panel of the carrier with long straps, typically very long. So made eyes and half buckles are almost like halfway between a buckle carrier and a woven wrap.

Often they are made of woven wrap fabric as well, and you can spread the fabric out over your shoulders. You can tie them in different ways. So they're really lovely. There are other things that aren't so common. One that, that is quite popular in the UK are kind of stretchy wrap hybrids, like the Cabo, which, uh, um, has, has been around a long time.

And yeah, there are, there are lots of wonderful things. 

[00:25:05] Emma Pickett: Yeah, there are lots of strange one-off ones as well that, um, you know, we, we'll, we'll talk a bit more about when we talk about what's safe and, and what, what, what we might not recommend. 

[00:25:14] Lizzy Allen: Yeah. 

[00:25:14] Emma Pickett: What's your kind of top three most popular lens in the library?

Which are the ones that you think most people will want with a young baby? 

[00:25:22] Lizzy Allen: Most people with a young baby, with a newborn will either go for a stretchy wrap or a buckle carrier. A lot of people come in asking for doulas and ergo babies, which are two of the, the more well-known brands, which I do have in the library, but they don't necessarily fit newborns fantastically.

I think most sling libraries find that they hire out a lot of the things that they personally love. So I often recommend to people mamoru Gazen slings, which are a smaller company. It's a great buckle carrier that adjusts really small, so it is safe for newborns. If someone doesn't want to use a stretchy wrap, then it's a real good alternative.

It's like stretchy soft fabric. That's really nice. And, um, there's another one called a Draco mom, hatchling, which is very soft like jersey fabric. So I hire a lot of those ones as well. Rings things are also pretty popular. 

[00:26:26] Emma Pickett: Okay, let's talk about safety, which I know is a, a big part of what you do. And when you're doing a fit check, it's, it's not just about comfort, it's about safety as well.

Can we start by talking about the, the ticks rule? Tell us what that means. 

[00:26:40] Lizzy Allen: Yes. So, uh, yeah. Safety is a massive part of what baby bow consultants and sling libraries do. Ticks is a common checklist for baby wearing safety, so it stands for tight in view, close enough to kiss, keep chin off, chest, and supported back.

[00:27:01] Emma Pickett: Let's go them one. Let's go one at time or go through them 

[00:27:03] Lizzy Allen: slowly. So tight. 

[00:27:05] Emma Pickett: Obviously if something is loose and floppy, a baby could move or fall or fall out, presumably. Exactly. 

[00:27:11] Lizzy Allen: A carrier or a sling, whatever you're using, it needs to be tight enough to hold your baby close, close to your chest on your front.

If that's the position that you're carrying in. You don't want there to be a gap between the two of you. If a carrier is too loose and there's a gap, it means that your baby can slump down inside the carrier, which is absolutely not safe, that can compromise their airway. So with young babies, especially under four months, maintaining their airway open is the key safety thing when we're thinking about slings.

And if it's so loose that your baby could fall out, then obviously that's really dangerous as well. 

[00:27:50] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Okay. And then in view, that presumably means you can see your baby's face. How would you describe it? 

[00:27:58] Lizzy Allen: Yeah, so definitely be able to see your baby's face. You want to be. Absolutely sure that there's no fabric covering over your baby's face.

You want there to be plenty of airflow around. You want to be able to see your baby's face, to be able to check that they're breathing well, to be able to check that their airway is open. So, um, having their chin off their chest. We talk often in the baby, baby wearing world about like a js shaped curve of their spine.

So you don't want the baby's spine to be curved so much that they then put their chin on their chest and that closes their airway. So yeah, in view is, is really important, especially with the younger babies as well. 

[00:28:41] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So we don't wanna put even a muzzling over the top of a baby and a sling 'cause you won't be able to see their faces.

You don't wanna put anything 

[00:28:48] Lizzy Allen: over them. And the same applies if you're using like a baby wearing coats or a baby wearing cover if you've seen a scarfs or something like that. 

[00:28:58] Emma Pickett: Yeah. These fancy coats, all that cost supply big money that have that big zip panel in the middle. Yeah, that look amazing. I've, I've seen those.

And it's like you cannot even see a baby p poking out anyway. Yeah. You have to be 

[00:29:09] Lizzy Allen: really careful. They can be fantastic, they can be used safely, but you have to think about where that fabric is. 'cause you might have done all the, the safety things, putting your baby in your sling, and then you put the coat over them and then yeah, it becomes unsafe.

So you have to think about all that stuff. C? Yes. Close enough to kiss. So this is about your baby being high enough, high enough up on your chest that you can easily kiss the top of their head. And this is to ensure that when they rest their head on you, they're resting on the upper firm part of your chest, so above your boobs.

Because breast tissue is very squishy, it's a suffocation risk if your baby is like nuzzling into your breasts. That's danger for their airway. 

[00:30:00] Emma Pickett: Okay. And is close enough to kiss also true for somebody who doesn't have breast tissue for a dad or somebody who doesn't have breast tissue? 

[00:30:08] Lizzy Allen: Yeah, so it isn't necessarily as important, but I would still say having your baby high makes it easier to monitor them Well.

So if somebody yeah, doesn't have breast tissue and they're also, you have to think about other things as well. Um, like the clothing that you're wearing, because fluffy jumpers can also be a suffocation risk. But on fair skin or a thin T-shirt, then there's still gonna be airflow on the whole close enough to kiss is better.

But yeah, in individual circumstances, talking one to one with with a family, then yeah, there might be, uh, exceptions. 

[00:30:57] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. 

[00:30:59] Lizzy Allen: This one is keep chin off chest. We talked about this slightly before, um, but this is so important because babies' Airways are so small, they need to have their chin off their chest to be able to keep their airway open, to be able to breathe properly.

Always keep their chin off the chest. Sometimes you might find that your baby wants to like faceplant into you. So we see lots of pictures of babies like sleeping in slings and looking out to the side. That's probably the, the optimum position for their head to be in. It's really easy to monitor them and you can easily tell that their chin is off their chest.

But some babies are very persistent face planters and they. As long as they are on that firm part of your chest and well away from any loose fabric or breast tissue or anything squishy, then they can still be safe providing their chin is off their chest and their nose is resting on the, the firm part of you because the air is still able to, to flow around and they can breathe.

But the chi being off the chest, that's absolutely key. 

[00:32:11] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And if you find that your baby presumably slumps back to their chin going off onto their chest, that's the time to contact the sling library. That's the time to, to get the fit check. That's the time to get help. If you find you're struggling yourself, struggling with that, you know, don't, don't struggle alone, which sounds super obvious.

Um, s so this is supported 

[00:32:29] Lizzy Allen: back. So this is about making sure that the fabric of the sling or the carrier is supporting your baby's back properly. So in a buckle carrier. Or in any, in any ling really. With a, with a, a younger baby, the fabric wants to come up to the nape of the neck, so some carriers will have like a headrest or a head support.

We don't want to use that. We want to make sure that that is folded down and there's nothing coming up higher than the nape of the neck. The headrest can be dangerous because it can push a baby's head forward, and then that's harder for them to keep their chin off their chest. You can't monitor them as well.

The other thing about supported back is sometimes the fabric might not come up high enough, so with an older baby who is ready to put their arms out in a sling, if that fabric is coming up as high as the baby's armpits, then that can still be safe. But if the, the baby is grown so much that the fabric is not coming that high, then that sling is no, no longer safe to use.

The other thing to mention with this one is that in a stretchy wrap or something, or in a away from wrap that has like the diagonal passes of fabric, it's really important that they are like pulled out enough. So it's quite easy with a stretchy wrap that those pieces of fabric to separate, you want all of those layers to be coming up to the top of the baby's back and, and that's how, you know they're well supported.

[00:34:10] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you've mentioned that with the, with the sort of stretchy wrap, with that cross shape across the front, that's, that's one tweak that you're often talking about bringing things up high enough. Mm-hmm. I mean, what are some of the conversations that you find yourself having repeatedly when people are getting started?

What are some of those common tweaks that people often need? 

[00:34:28] Lizzy Allen: So typically it's very easy to have your sling or your carrier too loose and too low. So I talk a lot about. Uh, correcting those things. They are important for the baby's safety, like we've talked about, but they can also make it uncomfortable for the adult who's using the sling as well.

So with buccal carriers, it's often about having the waistband really high with a newborn. I am always telling people to have their waistband under their bust, as high as they can get it. Often people have it much lower than that and sometimes like write down on their hips and there's, there's no way you're gonna be able to get it safe like that.

So I talk about where the waistband goes. Also, really effective techniques for tightening carriers. So with a lot of buckle carriers. People have tightened them. They've done a really good, really good job at tightening them. But when you get to like that last few centimeters or whatever of the tightening, it's very, very difficult.

And you have to feed the slack from the front of the shoulder, which is where it's always loose across your back and towards the tightening system. So towards the buckle. And then when you pull to tighten, it will actually tighten the strap rather than squashing, you know, your baby's back, their delicate spine, which is absolutely something we don't want to do.

So yeah, I talk a lot about that and I also talk a lot about how to know if your sling is tight enough. 'cause sometimes it can be quite confusing. You don't want to squash your baby. People can be really, really worried that they might have done the sling too tight and that they're squashing your baby their baby, and it's gonna be dangerous because of that.

It is possible to do that, but it's. It's not very common. I've, it's definitely much more common for it to be too loose. So there's a couple of little things that I talk to people about to know if it's tight enough, if it's the right tightness and if it's not, how to fix that. 

[00:36:37] Emma Pickett: Okay. So obviously safety is, is such a big issue, but we're also talking about long-term body growth and, and body development for the baby as well.

Can I just ask you about baby's legs and sort of hips and knees and, and that part of their body? 

[00:36:54] Lizzy Allen: Yes. So nowadays we recognize that the optimal position for a baby's legs to be in is like a spread squat position. So we want the fabric of the sling or the carrier to be supporting all the way along the baby's thighs, right into their knee pits.

And the phrase knee to knee is used quite a lot. Um, people might have heard that if they've looked online. It supports the baby's weight in their bottom so it's comfortable for the baby, and it doesn't put any pressure on their hips or their knees. So it's really safe for the developing joints. There isn't any evidence that not being in this position is going to damage your baby's hip.

So if you've got a narrower based carrier, you don't need to panic that you've done any damage to your baby. If your baby has been screened that they might have hip dysplasia or you know a risk of it, then you need to be more careful and make sure that you are definitely using a wide based sling. So if you are aware that your baby has any hip issues or a risk of it, then I would definitely speak to your local sling library or baby wearing consultant.

But yeah, don't, don't panic if you have been using a narrow-based carrier. 

[00:38:20] Emma Pickett: Okay. Can I ask a really dumb question? This is an example of me. Yeah. Not having spatial awareness, knee to knee. What does knee to knee actually mean? So 

[00:38:28] Lizzy Allen: knee to knee is the fabric of the sling. So the whatever is supporting the baby's bottom is spread out right into like the crook of the knee or like the, okay.

So the fabric is going from knee 

[00:38:41] Emma Pickett: on one side to knee on the other side. Okay. Exactly. Got it. So, so legs are sort of dangling free. Yeah. That is not so comfortable probably in the long term. Um, and 

[00:38:50] Lizzy Allen: yes, it's not gonna be so comfortable for the, for the baby. It also, um, they don't feel as supported, so they might not like it.

It also means that they can't rest against you in the ideal way as well. So the like curved J shape that the baby's back is supposed to be in, if they're well supported to their knees, then it's easy for the baby to rest their head on. You. That's why they don't need anything behind their heads, any head support because they'll rest on you.

[00:39:25] Emma Pickett: Okay. 'cause they're kind of leaning into you that Yeah, exactly. It just helps do that. Their thumb is lifted slightly. Okay. Exactly. Got it. Okay. And are there any types of slings, I don't necessarily want you to name a brand so you don't get sued by anybody, but are there any types of slings that really aren't safe to use and, and you sometimes see these, you know, these really cheap online companies that promote these adverts for things.

Are there anything, any whole type which you'd say, honestly, stay away from that? 

[00:39:51] Lizzy Allen: The only one, which is an absolute definite no-no, are bag style slings, which are not sold anymore. They may occasionally be given to people as a hand me down. But if you are given one. Throw it away. It is not possible to use this safely.

So this is a kind, it is like literally a bag with a, a strap that you can carry the baby over your shoulder and they are absolutely not safe. There've been a number of babies, sadly, died in them, um, a number of years ago. They've not been on the market for quite a while. But that's the one that I would say definitely, definitely do not use.

There are many slings available online, which are, are very cheap. Yeah. The kind of like targeted social media advertising where you get bombarded with all these, these brands that no one's really ever heard of. And like on online marketplaces, you know, Amazon Temu and things like that, which you really don't know, like the quality, are they safety tested?

What dyes or, you know, how has the fabric been made? These I would never recommend to anybody, but you know, some people get them. Someone actually came into the Sling Library a few weeks ago with what was supposed to be a stretchy wrap that they bought from Temu, but it wasn't even stretchy at all. It was just like the most terrible thing, and they laughed about it because they'd hardly spent any money on it, but it wasn't really of good enough quality to be able to be used.

If people are on a tight budget, then. It's normally better to buy something pre loved because you can get really good quality things. Yeah. Pre loved, 

[00:41:44] Emma Pickett: what a good phrase to use. Pre love. Yeah. I mean, if something is brand new and very cheap, there's a reason why it's very cheap. Yeah. So, so going secondhand is obviously a good plan, but I even going secondhand though, it's not super easy.

I'm seeing people saying, oh, I've bought this secondhand and actually now I look at it, is this label fake? So there are this, there's this whole market for sort of counterfeit slings that, that even have the actual company label faked on the actual sling. I mean, that's a bit scary. Yes. How, what do you suggest people do if they're trying to buy secondhand?

[00:42:13] Lizzy Allen: It is scary. Thankfully there are not many brands which are known to be counterfeited. So the main one is Ergo Baby. And I've also recently heard about a counterfeit Tula. That's only once that I've heard about that. But Ergo Baby is very common. The fakes are really convincing. So. They come in a box, they've, you know, it looks great to the untrained eye.

You wouldn't necessarily realize straight away. So sometimes, um, people will come into the sling library with their own Ergo Baby, and as soon as I touch it, I kind of get this feeling that like, Ooh, I don't think this one is genuine. Then I kind of, you know, ask them, oh, where did you get it from? And yeah, and kind of decide that, yeah, this is definitely not right.

So if you have bought an Ergo baby secondhand, or you bought one new online, but the price was really good. Then that's potentially going to be fake as well. And your local sling library will be very happy to, to help you, I'm sure, because we, we see these things quite often. Um, and there's a few, a few ways of telling really.

Sometimes there'll be like weird stitching, it just, the fabric won't feel right. The weight of it is quite a giveaway. So the fake ones tend to be quite a lot lighter than genuine. Ergo baby carriers, there might be like spelling mistakes on logo, not on the logos, on the labels, weird little spacing and things like that.

So it can be quite subtle, but. Yeah, a sling library will be able to tell. 

[00:44:01] Emma Pickett: I mean, some of this stuff is not something you can necessarily do in advance. I'm just thinking like the weight and the quality of the fabric, if you're buying online, the chances of being able to, to guess that is pretty minimal.

But, but just to state the obvious, this matters because if it is a fake mm-hmm. It won't have reached the safety standards. You know, the stitching may not be safe. It, you know, it may not last as long, so it won't be as good value, but it could potentially be dangerous if it is, is a fake one. Yeah. So if someone is buying online, they can't take it physically to a sling library.

Yeah. Would you suggest that they ask for photographs of the labels? Would you suggest that they, they're looking for sort of a provenance, is that what they call it when you're buying an antique? You, you know, if someone, if someone has owned it as an individual, when did they buy it? Do they have the original receipt?

Can you, have they got pictures themselves using, I would be 

[00:44:45] Lizzy Allen: very skeptical of buying an NoGo baby secondhand without seeing proof of purchase. And that needs to be from, directly from Ergo baby or an authorized retailer. Don't trust ones from Amazon. Even if they say they're real, I just don't think the risk is worth it.

[00:45:05] Emma Pickett: And what's the sort of dodgy price bracket? I mean, what would you expect to pay for a real ergo, if you're paying online, this is, this is as of April, 2025. They 

[00:45:15] Lizzy Allen: are depending exactly on which model. There's, they're either like 180 something pounds. They've just bought out a new one, which is even more expensive.

It's over 200 pounds. They're expensive carriers. If you see one for like a hundred and some 110, 120, just it's not going to be genuine. 

[00:45:38] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So that's a, that's a price New price, yeah. Price. So 120 is just too cheap for a brand new ergo and, and secondhand. What do the real ones go for? Second, secondhand 

[00:45:46] Lizzy Allen: prices, it's, it's hard to say because people just don't know what if they've got a fake or not.

So I wouldn't necessarily go on the price of something secondhand. It depends, you know, how old it is, how much it's been used and, and things like that. See the original proof of purchase and even if it's like a really tempting price and it seems good, yeah, I wouldn't do it unless you knew for sure where it came from.

[00:46:18] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. I want to tell you about my brand new book called The Story of Jessie's Milky. It's a picture book for two to six year olds, and I wanted to write a book that was about weaning, but also not about weaning, because breastfeeding journeys end in all sorts of different ways. So Jessie's story is presented as having three possible endings.

In one ending, his mom is pregnant and Jessie's going to share his milk with a new baby. In the second, his mom is getting really tired and it's time for some mother led weaning. And in the third, we see a self weaning journey as Jessie's attachment to breastfeeding gradually fades. There are beautiful illustrations by the very talented Jojo Ford, and the feedback from parents so far has been so lovely and touching, and I'm really excited to share the book with you if you're interested.

In my other books for Older Children, I have the Breast book, which is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And I also have two books about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding.

For a 10% discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley Press, that's uk.jkp.com and use the code. Mm PE 10 makes milk picket Emma. 10. Okay. So one of the things I always imagine if you're a baby wearing consultant is that when you are walking the streets of, of your, of your world, it must be really difficult when you see a parent who's using a sling or a carrier unsafely because you have this weird feeling of responsibility towards the parent and the baby.

But you also, you know, you obviously, your work is also about empowering parents and not making parents feel terrible. What do you do if you see somebody using a sling that's not safe? Do you have any sort of magic phrases that you use? How do you approach it? 

[00:48:11] Lizzy Allen: I don't think I have any magic phrases, but I think the most important thing is to connect with that person.

It's not okay to go and tell them you are doing this wrong and you know you are harming your baby, or making judgements or saying things that could be threatening or scary. Even if they're coming from a good place, the knowledge that they're lacking or you know, the ways that you can help them are gonna be much more well received If you first connect with that parent, you know, you can approach and say, oh, I love baby wearing too.

I carried my babies for ages and they absolutely loved it. Or, you know, your baby's so cute, they look so cozy. Say something that is gonna connect with them first. And if they're receptive, then you can, it can turn into a conversation. They might say, it's the first time I've used it today, and I dunno if I'm doing it right.

Can you help me? Or they might say, it's really uncomfortable and you can offer. To help that person. I don't just generally go up to random people in the street and help them with their sling. I have very, very rarely done this. And the only circumstances generally are if I see a baby who is real in real danger.

[00:49:33] Emma Pickett: So super low wobbling around all over the place. Exactly. 

[00:49:35] Lizzy Allen: Like even, um, we haven't really talked about different carrying positions, but forward facing outwards is quite a popular way of carrying your baby. And it's very dangerous to carry a sleeping baby forwards facing, but you do see it. And, and babies that are really too young for that position as well.

So a very young baby, sleepy, forward facing out, I would be talking to that parent. Or if the baby is completely hidden, you can't see them at all. There's no way of knowing that baby's okay. Or if the sling is so loose, it looks like the baby could fall out. Something like that. In those situations, that's when I personally would intervene.

Some people are probably more the kind of person who might just randomly strike up conversation with, with strangers in the streets. That's probably not, you know, my personality. But if you feel like that and you feel like you can do it in a way that is kind and that is gonna empower the parent and you feel confident doing that, then yeah.

But always start with enacting. You don't want to judge people and make them feel worse or make them feel like they can't do baby wearing, because that might be a really empowering tool for them and a difficult conversation or a, a stranger saying something that feels like you're being judged might put you off and think, oh, well I'm never gonna try that again, because I don't want someone to.

To come and tell me off for what I've done wrong. Yeah, it's very vulnerable being a parent. And you do get random comments from people, not just about baby wearing, but you know about all aspects of parenting. Random people in the supermarket or just in a cafe will say things to you. People feel like they have the rights to comment on how you are parenting.

So I think it's important to bear that in mind as well. 

[00:51:38] Emma Pickett: Yeah, you're absolutely right. You want to be the connected person that's kind and listening and supportive, not the person they remember in their nightmares. I think sometimes baby wearing a attracts those odd audibles that feel that they can shout weird comments and it sometimes it's 'cause they parented with a pram and they want that.

They feel that that's normal and to see something that doesn't feel normal feels quite threatening to them. You definitely get people yelling out where's their hat? They're not warm enough. What happens if you fall over? Um, you know, all these weird myths that, you know, baby wearing parents are likely to be crushing onto the ground and, and squashing their babies.

Where in fact, I'm, I'm sure you, you will have known, known stories where if you do happen to trip and you're holding a pram that's not safe, that prams gonna zoom off into the distance. But if you do happen to fall while your baby wearing mothers do these amazing stunt woman falls where they kind of like curl to one side and, and babies are usually completely fine, a bit shocked, but completely fine.

Um, and it's so, so rarely happens 'cause we're in that sort of heightened state of awareness. Yeah. You mentioned about positionings forward facing and back children on their back, and obviously there's a, we'll talk in, in a minute I'll ask you a question about older children baby wearing. So maybe we can talk about back carrying at that point, when generally is, is forward facing.

So when we say forward facing, we mean baby looking out onto the world. What are some of the things we have to think about before we do that? 

[00:52:59] Lizzy Allen: So the general guidance is to wait until your baby is at least four and a half to five months old. They need to have good sustainable, its neck torso control because the forward facing out position, the sling doesn't, or the, the carrier doesn't support quite as well in the same way.

So they're supporting themselves a little bit. It's for shorter periods of time. So different manufacturers recommend different things, but it tends to be 20 to 30 minutes. 

[00:53:32] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:53:33] Lizzy Allen: And when your baby is awake and alerts definitely not for sleeping. Definitely not for, um, if they're upset. The other thing that's important is their size.

So it's important for the baby's mouth and nose, obviously to be free. So if they're too small and the fabric covers their chin and their their mouth, their, you need to wait a little bit longer for that. 

[00:53:58] Emma Pickett: Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Okay, let's talk about breastfeeding in slings. Um, when you have conversations with people about breastfeeding in slings, what are some of the things that you're, what are you you're talking about with them?

[00:54:09] Lizzy Allen: A lot of people ask about it sometimes because they really need to, or they feel that they need to because they've got an older child and they need to be, you know, to be interacting with them. They don't want to be stuck sitting under a, a feeding baby for so long, and it feels like that breastfeeding in the sling can be a way to be more available to their other child or the other things that they need to do.

Some people have just heard about it and think, oh, I'd like to do that. That sounds good. So I think it's, it's always important to start with a conversation with the parent and listen to. What their reasons are for wanting to, to breastfeed in a sling, because it's really important to note that it is riskier than carrying your baby in a sling.

Following those, the ticks, uh, guidelines that we talked about, because when you're breastfeeding or even when you are bottle feeding or tube feeding in this thing, you're not necessarily going to meet the ticks when you're breastfeeding. You definitely can't meet those ticks. So it's not to scare people, but it's really important that parents are aware of the risk and then they make the decision themselves as to whether they want to, uh, to breastfeed in the sling.

[00:55:42] Emma Pickett: Can I just add one, one thing there from the I-B-C-L-C hat on? I think, I think it's, I'm really pleased that you said that because I think there's a bit of a myth out there. That breastfeeding in a sling is absolutely doable. Everyone does it no problem. You know, you can literally put 'em in a sling, carry on your day, carry on playing cars with your toddler.

And actually, I think I would describe breastfeeding in a sling as being normal breastfeeding, but with a bit of extra support and maybe a little bit more hands free. Yeah. But actually your level of awareness is not so different from a regular breastfeed. Yes. And also the other thing I would really stress, and I dunno if you agree with this, is that you really cannot take the advice of someone else as to what worked for them.

Because not only is it body shape different, which is always the truth for baby wearing, but breast shape and nipple angle, a nipple direction and latching for that individual child cannot be reproduced from person to person. So you really do have to get one-to-one support. I think if you're gonna try and breastfeed in the sling, I think you do ideally need, that's when you're gonna go to the sling library and try and get some help.

But even then, it may be that you always have to have an extra hand on them. You always have to have that level of perception. It's not just Papain sling. That baby is in and outta a breastfeeding state or a sleep state that isn't necessarily safe. Would you say that's, that's a fair, it's definitely 

[00:56:58] Lizzy Allen: not safe that way.

Breastfeeding in a sling is not hands free. You are always going to use one hand to support your baby. You, you do get one hand free, so that's nice. But the other thing is, the way that your baby is, is safe is because you are monitoring them constantly. So your baby is not as tight when they're breastfeeding in a sling and they are low.

So those two part of the ticks that you're not meeting. The way that you ensure that your baby is safe is by checking on them all the time and then using your hand. So as you say, it is not hands-free breastfeeding. It is more of a support. It can be like a third hand to help with positioning. That can be quite useful.

And you have a hand free, if your baby needs a little bit of help latching on or you know, you can do like breast shaping or a flip all technique or something like that. Maybe breast. Um, this thing is useful in that way because you've using it for more support and you've got a hand free, but it, it is definitely not hands-free.

The other thing to say it is riskier and it is harder to feed babies under four months in a sling. When they get older and they get more control and they can sit, it becomes a lot easier. And my personal, um, kind of story of breastfeeding in a sling was with my eldest. I could not do it until she was old enough to sit up and then once she could sit, she could support herself and she could latch on herself.

That's when it became possible for me to be able to do it. And it was really useful. And I have a number of, of memories where it was amazing and it was, it kind of saved the day, but it was, it is hard to do it, um, with a young baby. 

[00:58:52] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think one of the things that makes baby wearing so supportive for breastfeeding is all the other stuff, rather than just, you know, thinking of it, oh well it's good for breastfeeding.

'cause you feed in the sling. Actually it's good for breastfeeding because they're in the sling just before a feed. You pick up on their cues that immediately the feed's finished and you put them back in a safe position. They, they can settle between feeds and they're gonna be more comforted. So it's, it's kind of what it does for your parenting overall that makes it breastfeeding supportive rather than the actual breastfeeding and the sling.

But definitely just to reinforce what you just said, once they're old enough and they're a toddler and they're in the sling, wow. That, that is definitely much easier. They can, they can happily feed on along while you're walking along. Yeah. I, I sometimes see slings saying, great for breastfeeding, and you think, hang on, this very structured carrier, where do they think people's breasts are?

They think people's breasts are up by their collarbone. 'cause that's not gonna work. And so people are desperately trying to make their bodies fit something that isn't necessarily naturally gonna work. So if you don't feel like breastfeeding, the sling is working, that does not mean there's anything wrong with you.

It is, it is very common for people to find it quite tricky. Um, but you may get some help, as I said, from a, from a consultant or a, or a, uh, library. Hi, this is Emma popping on at a later date. I just wanna add one thing. I think if you've listened to Lizzy and I talk about breastfeeding and baby wearing, I'm hoping you did get the message that we both agree that hands free breastfeeding and a sling or carrier isn't safe.

I just really want to reinforce that message to make sure that's really clear. And that's partly coming from the story of Baby Jimmy who sadly died, um, while breastfeeding in a sling. So the message from the lullaby trust and the NCT and all the spaces that talk about baby wearing are really clear that it's not actually possible.

Two hands free breastfeed a child safely in a sling. So when I say child, we're talking about young babies. Obviously we're, if you're practicing natural term breastfeeding and you have a much older child, you're gonna need to use some of your judgment here. But certainly when we're talking about young babies and babies under 12 months, it's, it's really not something that we would want you to try and achieve.

So use the sling to support your arms and hands, or take the weight of the baby if you are out and about. You're going to need to be able to hold the baby with your hands to really ensure that you've got an eye on that baby's airway and that they're able to safely breathe. So think of baby wearing and a sling as some friends that can get together and support each other, and certainly baby wearing as a really important part of, of parenting as a breastfeeding parent.

But when it comes to actually feeding in the sling, think of the sling as being an extra support for your arms. But hands-free, breastfeeding is not something that is recommended. Hope that's clear. Thanks. Back to the chat. Is there anything else about breastfeeding in slings that we want to highlight?

Are there any types of slings where it's a little bit easier? I would say yeah, that the baby beyond type, structured carrier, with a newborn, it's just not gonna happen. You're gonna have to take the sling off. Yeah. Or literally just move them entirely out of the sling position. Is it more likely to work in a stretchy wrap or a ring sling?

You're gonna have to really loosen it, aren't you? To get into a safe breastfeeding position? 

[01:02:05] Lizzy Allen: Yeah, I think you can breastfeed in most kinds of slings, the baby Bern harness type. Um, carriers are hard. I do know people who have managed it, but it would not be what I would recommend for people to use. Yeah, you can feed in stretchy wraps for younger babies, this is good because you can easily feed them in like a horizontal cradle position, which is a little bit safer for a baby who is very young, who hasn't developed any head control.

Once they get a little bit older, then you can feed them upright in a sling. So like in a ring sling or a buckle carrier. I don't want anybody to listen to this, um, to this podcast and think that I've kind of told them how to do it because there's so much more to it than just the mechanics of. How you know to breastfeed in the sling.

When I see someone at the Sling library, the things that I tell them are so individual. So we obviously talk about the safety things, but you know, because people's bodies and their boobs are different and their nipples point in different directions, it can be quite a process to find what works for them.

So if anybody is kind of thinking that they do want to breastfeed in a sling, then do seek support from your local sling library or baby born consultant. And just remember that it's not hands free and it's not brain free. You need to be monitoring your baby all the time. Okay, 

[01:03:38] Emma Pickett: let's talk a bit more about baby wearing with older children.

So how do things change as children get older? And can you tell us about putting babies on backs? 

[01:03:46] Lizzy Allen: Yes. So you can carry your baby on your back from a very young age if you know what you're doing and if you have the right type of sling. So with a woven wrap, um, you can carry a very young baby from, from birth.

People do, it's very hard with a buccal carrier, you can normally start back carrying from about six months or when your baby can sit up on aided. So that's around the time when most people come to see me about wanting to back carry. 

[01:04:20] Emma Pickett: Can I ask a really dumb question? So yeah. So we've got the ticks rules in view.

Yeah. Close enough to kiss, et cetera. But then we've also got, throughout human history, large chunks of the world are back carrying newborns and that's working and that's obviously super safe and that's what they've been doing through generations. But that learned skill, that cultural knowledge is not something that the typical mum in Milton Keynes is gonna pick up on day one from, from a video on YouTube.

Yes. So how do you fit together? That message around ticks and that message around back harring from newborn is possible. 

[01:04:54] Lizzy Allen: Yeah. So it is obvious that ticks cannot apply when a baby is on your back because you know you can't kiss them for a start. It is, it's very different. But yeah, the carrying a newborn on your back, it's not something I have personally ever done, um, because I just didn't feel that I could do it safely enough.

Even by the time I had my second and I was a baby wearing consultant by then, it felt like that skill was a little bit beyond what I personally, I. Add at the time or wanted to do, I did carry him on my back before he got to six months using a made eye and a woven wrap probably from about three to four months.

The more control the baby has, the easier it gets. But yeah, the, the way that you can check if your baby is safe on your back, like if they're sleeping, you want them to have to have them really high up on your back and people say things like they can feel their baby breathing on the back of their neck.

So you want your, you know, your skin to be bare and yeah, it's, it's not something that you can just put your baby there and not think about them. You are monitoring them. I think that's part of our culture as well, is you. Want to kind of put your baby in the sling and then go off and, and do whatever it is that you wanted to do without necessarily not ignoring your baby and not not thinking about them, but not having the same level of consciousness about them constantly.

But I would say that, yeah, carrying a newborn on your back, you need to have a much high level of monitoring. So yeah, not many people do it. It's also very hard, like physically to do because you've got this really small baby right at the top of your back. My arms don't really have the mobility in them to get the baby right up there in position.

And as the baby gets, babies get bigger, it's easier to manipulate them on your back as well. Okay. 

[01:07:07] Emma Pickett: And as you said, with the right carrier, you can keep wearing. Yes. And especially if you've got a smaller person you can keep wearing. Um, and I guess the limits are your comfort, you know, your shoulders, your back, your hips, when it starts to feel uncomfortable.

Some people say that they try baby wearing and their baby doesn't like it. Are there some babies that just don't like it, or does that, or does that just mean that person needs a bit more support? 

[01:07:30] Lizzy Allen: Yeah, most of the time I would say that person needs a bit more support. There are some babies who genuinely don't like baby wearing, but more often it's because maybe they, their baby has cried when they've put them in the sling.

But it wasn't the being put in the sling that made their baby cry. It was the fact that they were tired or they were hungry, or, you know, there's something else going on for that baby. And then the parent might interpret it as, my baby doesn't like slings, especially if this has happened a few times. And the other thing that babies might not like is if they don't feel secure enough.

So if the sling is a little bit loose and they don't. You know, if they don't feel well supported, that can make babies cry. And they often pick up on like the parent's mood. So if the parent is really anxious about putting the baby in the sling, um, and they're getting stressed and they're fumbling, that is not going to help the baby have a positive experience of it as well.

So yeah, rare. It's not that common for babies to really not like slings. 

[01:08:39] Emma Pickett: Okay. Thank you. Okay, so I'm gonna realize we've gone over an hour and I could talk you two for another hour. So we need to, let's wrap things up. Um, is there anything, well, before I ask you about some of your favorite resources, is there anything we haven't talked about that you really think we need to?

[01:08:53] Lizzy Allen: I think we've talked about most things. I have a, a habit of talking about baby wearing for a long time. My sling library sessions tend to all overrun because I can't stop talking to everybody. That's what happens when you're partner 

[01:09:09] Emma Pickett: about something you can't stop going. Um, what, what are some of your favorite resources if you, if someone was learning about a baby wearing for the first time, where would you send them on online?

[01:09:19] Lizzy Allen: Yeah. There are some fantastic resources online. So a brilliant place to start is the Carrying Matters website. So this is run by Dr. Rosie Knowles, who is a fantastic baby wearing educator and her website has got loads of articles that are both practical and kind of the background of baby wearing myth busting, all kinds of different things.

And she has a fantastic article about breastfeeding in slings. So it includes loads of safety stuff, it includes how to do it. That's a great first place. The look. 

[01:09:58] Emma Pickett: Okay, we'll put that in the, in the show notes. Thank you for that. 

[01:10:01] Lizzy Allen: There is an organization called the Baby Wearing Education Network, which is very new.

They are on social media, so if you search, um, baby Wearing Education Network on social media, you'll find them. And there's a website coming soon. And this organization has started in response to the lack of information, safety information about baby wearing in general. A lot of the manufacturer's instructions are really awful, not just not helpful, they're unsafe.

They might have positions in them that are, aren't recommended or they miss the key safety information. So this is a network of uk, I think it's all uk. It's definitely UK based. Baby wearing consultants who are working really hard to find like a central place. For safety information, um, like a baby wearing hub for parents and, um, health professionals and, and others as well.

Okay. YouTube is a fantastic resource. You do have to be careful which videos you watch because there are varying quality, but if you find videos by, um, baby wearing consultants, they're generally good. I can tell you the names of some of them for the, the show notes. 

[01:11:21] Emma Pickett: Cool. Yeah. I'm gonna get used to send those to me.

Yeah. And maybe when this episode goes out, we can direct people to, to your Instagram as well, and you can answer any questions if people have any particular questions. Thank you so much for your time today, Lizzy. I really, really appreciate it. This, it's very clear how much knowledge and experience you have and, and also great to hear you can support people across the uk.

I don't want you to necessarily be bombarded with, with across the UK information, so, but I know that you will help people find other support if, if they need it. Would you say that it's common for libraries to support across the country? Are you aware of other libraries that do that as well? 

[01:11:56] Lizzy Allen: Yes, that was the other thing I meant to say as well, to be able to find your local sling library.

There is, um, a website called the Sling pages. So there's a map and you can have a look on there where your local library or baby wearing consultant is. Lots of sling libraries do do online support, so if you don't find one that is local enough to be able to go in person, um, you'll be able to find online support and post or hire.

[01:12:25] Emma Pickett: Brilliant. 

[01:12:26] Lizzy Allen: Thank you very much. 

[01:12:27] Emma Pickett: Thank you.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett Ibclc and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great. As well, get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.