Photographing natural term breastfeeding

Back in 2020, Ann Owen felt like she was the only person in the UK breastfeeding a four year old. Not an unusual feeling for an extended breastfeeder, but Ann’s next step was unusual. She’s a photographer, specialising in documenting birth and post-partum journeys, so she started a project to meet and photograph other families with older nurslings. Now she travels all over the UK, meeting nurslings from 4-8 years old, with an aim of collating 100 photographs for her Milk Project.

The Milk Project can be found at https://milkproject.uk/

You can see some of Ann’s photographs on my Instagram account this week @emmapickettibclc or Ann’s @‌ann.owen.foto

We also mentioned spectrumlactation.org @‌spectrumlactation

My new picture book on how breastfeeding journeys end, The Story of Jessie’s Milkies, is available from Amazon here -  The Story of Jessie's Milkies. In the UK, you can also buy it from The Children’s Bookshop in Muswell Hill, London. Other book shops and libraries can source a copy from Ingram Spark publishing.

You can also get 10% off my books on supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com 

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I am Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself makes milk. That was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end.

And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too. Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm gonna be talking to Anne Owen. So Anne is a photographer based in Do It and if you already follow her on Instagram, which is anne dot owen dot f oto photo with an F. Um, you may already know about her milk project. That's what we're gonna be talking about today.

And with celebrating people, breastfeeding, older children, specifically breastfeeding beyond five years, which is what her project is all about. First of all, Anne, thank you for your project. I know you are still in the middle of it and there's still lots more to be done, but I just want to say on behalf of Mums who feed nata Natural Term, thank you very much for raising awareness and I'm just really grateful for you for, for the work that you're doing.

Thank you so much. So let's talk a little bit about what you're doing. So you are, you describe yourself on your website as a documentary photographer. What does that mean? What is a documentary photographer as opposed to someone who's putting babies on pumpkins and covering them in bits of silk? 

[00:01:44] Ann Owen: So for me, I like real life.

I like the messy, the chaotic. I like, um, I just like real life. I don't like too much staged. I like to just watch things as they unfold. So it's just documenting real life as it happens. The good, the bad, just in a really natural way. 

[00:02:02] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you're not setting up a composition. It's not, it's Well, sometimes I will follow, you might, you might encourage a little bit of adjustment sometimes.

[00:02:09] Ann Owen: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I would, sometimes I call myself like a documentary photographer, but slightly lifestyle sometimes, because I like to follow the light. So if I come to your house. I have a look around. I see where the best light is. So I might start our session there and I might guide you into a nice light, or if you're doing something, I let that happen, but then I might do more artistic portraits at the same time.

So I'm kind of a mix of a little hybrid of both, like gentle guidance, but then I like to just let things happen. 

[00:02:38] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you are, you've worked in the sort of postpartum space for a while, so you talk about. Doing work in birth and postpartum and sort of social issues. What led you to specifically working on the Milk project?

So just to say the word, the project itself, you describe it as milk dash, celebrating mother's, breastfeeding, older kids, is what, how I'm seeing it described. Tell me about the journey that that led to you starting the project. 

[00:03:02] Ann Owen: Oh wow. It's an amazing journey because it started back in like back in 2020.

When my daughter was breastfeeding and she was four, I think she was around four. Yeah, four. And I mean, I had a, a very easy kind of breastfeeding journey. I had a horrible birth, like the stereotypical like intervention after intervention. But the breastfeeding came really easy for me. And I know I'm really lucky and I'm so grateful for that.

'cause that was actually healing for me. So then I was just feeling alone and I'm a photographer, like through and through, like I need to do something to make me feel good. It's like part of my therapy, it's part of my, it's like an extra limb. So I wanted to do something and I was feeling really alone with breastfeeding my daughter, like I didn't know anybody.

We had just moved from London to the New Forest and I was, I didn't have a social network. I literally didn't know anybody at that time. So I just was reaching out, trying to find people that I could photograph for this project. And in the beginning when I first started this project, people were really hesitant to come forward.

And these were women like breastfeeding. Just three year olds, two year olds, four year olds. 'cause I started out younger then and yeah, and there was so much like fear in people of wanting to come forward, of being seen and stuff. But then eventually as time moved on, it just started becoming more and more normal.

I started connecting with more moms just like me, breastfeeding four year olds, five year olds, six year olds, seven year olds, and then eight year olds. And then now, like five years later, it feels like everyone is more open to it and making so many more connections with women all over the country that, um, are breastfeeding older kids.

And now I know that it is absolutely so common and normal, but a lot of people still feel a bit afraid to come forward. 

[00:04:45] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:04:45] Ann Owen: So I've had, I have a lot of, like, I've had some beautiful messages from moms where they want to take part in the project. They really want to, but in the last minute they drop out, they just can't.

'cause they worry about being seen or worry about what people will think about them. I had one person I met, this was really like so heartbreaking, but also like I had a feeling when I went that it wasn't gonna be a session that was gonna work out, but I felt the need that I should, I needed to go see this person for some reason and as I went, 'cause she had been really quite nervous and a bit unsure, but I said, well, we can give it a try and see.

How it goes. And she had a lot of anxieties about like not even allowing her friends to see her breastfeed, but she felt like this project was so important and she wanted to, I think she wanted to so badly to try to step out of her comfort zone and do it. 'cause she knows in her heart that it's important.

But when I got there, it just didn't happen. And then she had a big cry and like was so upset that she couldn't, you know, 'cause her son didn't want to. But I think it was because she had made this. She feels so, so much shame around it, like surrounding her family and her friends, and it was just heartbreaking because people shouldn't have to feel that way ever.

And it's, it's like it's a common thing and it's normally like the extended families that are causing the issues. Yeah, it's really heartbreaking. 

[00:06:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I can hear the pain that that mum was going through. I guess, yeah, I mean, obviously when you meet people that you may be talking to someone about their breastfeeding experience in a way they've, they've never discussed with anyone before.

And lots of people when they are breastfeeding, older children often are breastfeeding in isolation, and that's something that I come across in the clients I support as well. So what you're doing is not just a photographic service, it's also a kind of personal, almost a therapeutic service to the individuals who are taking part in the project.

Absolutely. Can I ask you a little bit more about your own experience? So I'm detecting a, a lovely accent. Where are you from originally? 

[00:06:39] Ann Owen: So, I'm originally from Sweden. My whole family is in Sweden. I was born in Sweden. Um, my parents got divorced when I was six years old and my dad left and went to the States.

So then I ended up going to the States when I was 10. And then I lived there for a while and then came back in my early twenties, back to Sweden. And I was gonna be a war photographer and I had it all set. I had my ticket to Iraq. Already, but then through a change, through change of circumstance, um, things that didn't happen.

Um, I ended up in London and I didn't wanna go to London. London was the last place I ever wanted to visit, but I had made friends with somebody online and I was like, all right, I'll come visit London. 

[00:07:20] Emma Pickett: It does sound like you're a bit anti London. I'm talking to you from London, but I will accept all views on London.

So you ended up in London and, and what happened next? 

[00:07:29] Ann Owen: I, yes. I probably was anti London before I came, but then I ended up staying there for like, gosh, 15 years. I ended up finding my husband there, so I ended up liking London. But I'm just not a city person. I'm more, I need like more country and I'm more of that type.

But yeah. So. I wasn't planning to stay in London. I ended up in London. I was supposed to go on this road trip with a friend who ended up not being a friend, and it ended up being really sketchy. And then I knew this other person that I had messaged Kevin, who's now my husband. And um, we ended up being friends.

And then I had a couple of months before I was meant to go to Iraq. I had all my, everything, like was organized. I had my ticket, my driver, everything across the border. And I was looking for just some way to make some extra money while I was waiting. So I answered his ad on Gumtree and it was somebody looking for somebody to work with her son who had adrenal Lua dystrophy.

And, um, he had been getting treatment from this, um, therapist slash healer in London, who's sadly no longer alive. But, um, to make a long story short. It called out to me and I needed to work with this boy. 'cause the treatment he was having sounded really extraordinary. It was like dealing with the mind and um, he was learning to do things and feeling better and like becoming, he was like in a quite a non-responsive state.

And then through this therapy kind of started coming more alive a bit. And I was just intrigued. So to make a long story short, I ended up as an apprentice to this healer for a couple of years. And then my trip to Iraq stopped. I didn't wanna be a war photographer anymore. Yeah, my life changed. I went on a deep inner healing journey for a good few years.

I was like in deep meditation and it basically changed my life and changed the trajectory of everything I. Because I had a lot of darkness in my life when I first arrived, and I had a lot of deep healing to do through past traumas from growing up and stuff, so, 

[00:09:31] Emma Pickett: okay. I'm sorry to hear that, but I'm glad that you were able to find a way to, to work through that and, and the support that you needed.

So tell me a little bit about your early parenting and what, and specifically breastfeeding. Is that something that you had a lot of experience of, like from Sweden? I assume therefore that everyone, you know, breastfeeds. So there for children of a toddler, supposedly amazing breastfeeding rates. That is that not necessarily your personal experience?

[00:09:54] Ann Owen: Not my personal experience. 'cause I didn't grow up in Sweden, so I left when I was 10 and I didn't grow up around babies. I had no experience with babies, no experience of breastfeeding at all. But when I became pregnant, I was naturally drawn to more of like, you know, all like attachment, parenting, all those people.

So I read loads of books and about breast breastfeeding and birth and. It just felt like the most natural thing to me. Yeah. So then when, um, Nixey was born, like she was a forceps delivery and like, you know, but even though it was like quite a horrible birth in that sense, I didn't feel traumatized, traumatized by it at all for some reason.

So that's good. But the breastfeeding came really easily and, um, we just breastfed, like, I just basically like didn't put her down for 10 months, just breastfed her all the way through. She didn't really cry when she was a baby. It was quite easy. I didn't really have any negative experience. I didn't really have an engorgement that much, or like I'd never had mastitis.

But when my son was born, when I became pregnant with him, when she was like around three, I. That's when I started experiencing really intense aversion. It was really, I remember how shocking it was 'cause something that was so beautiful and amazing for us. All of a sudden I was repulsed and it's like, you feel like you just wanna throw them across the room, you know?

But then it would kind of pass and I would kind of like, and I always wanted her to stop on her own, but there was a period where I kind of tried to force it just because I couldn't anymore. 

[00:11:27] Emma Pickett: So you were tandem feeding them? Were you both of them at the same time? Yeah, before, 

[00:11:30] Ann Owen: this was while I was pregnant.

Okay. But when she was by then and I like, yeah. So when I was pregnant it was really hard. That's when we experienced, yeah. 

[00:11:37] Emma Pickett: Aversion in pregnancy is not uncommon and is, yeah, really grim. And I'm so sorry that you, you had that experience, but so you were hoping to get through pregnancy and, and tandem feed after that, were you, but obviously the aversion was a struggle.

What happened? 

[00:11:50] Ann Owen: So then she kind of weaned, kind of start. But then like we would pick up again and then I didn't feel a version as bad. It would just kind of come and go. There was no consistency with how I felt. But then when Forrest was born, she like started nursing, like she was a newborn again, and it was amazing and it made life so much easier being able to tandem feed them together.

It helped Nickie because she was older, she was three years, nine months when he was born. It helped with her not being jealous and all these things, and it just made life so much easier. It was really hard. I think going from one to two was the hardest thing I've ever done in my whole life. No one talks about that either.

Yeah. Like how hard that can be for some people, because for me that was really painful and difficult. But now it's painful in 

[00:12:35] Emma Pickett: terms of sort of emotionally painful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Worrying about nickie and worrying about her needs and 

[00:12:40] Ann Owen: Yeah. Yeah. And she was, she was struggling a bit Yeah. For a while, but, 

[00:12:45] Emma Pickett: but you felt, you feel that tandem feeding helped her?

Absolutely. That was definitely the right, the right choice for her. She carried on. And I know from your website that she weaned just before she turned six. Yeah. And tell me a little, little bit about the end of her breastfeeding journey. 'cause that's something I often like to talk about. How did that go?

[00:13:02] Ann Owen: Oh, it just kind of happened. Like we, we took a photo. I'm always taking photos, so that's not anything weird. But we took a photo and then that was it. Like that was the end. After this one photo, then she didn't have it anymore. 'cause by this point. When she was like five, like, like it would be like every few weeks.

If she's having like big feelings, then she would have some boob. Otherwise she wouldn't really, so it was just a very slow, gradual progression of when she stopped. Whereas Forrest, he wasn't as like crazy for boob as she was like Nixey wanted boob all the time since day one. And when Forrest was born, he wasn't as fussed.

And it was really weird because. With Nickie, it was like the solution to everything, like every upset, whatever, but forest, he would have upsets and be unsettled and he wouldn't want boob. And then he would only feed on one boob. So I had like one boob really big and then one boob like my A cup, 

[00:14:03] Emma Pickett: which was great.

Uni boobing is something we need to talk about more because a lot of people do it. It's very common actually. Yeah, lots of, lots of older nurse links particularly end up developing a side preference and end up just breastfeeding on one side. 

[00:14:14] Ann Owen: But he stopped when he was like eight weeks. He stopped. He only one on one to the point where I, at first I was worried that maybe it was cancer or something, so I went to the doctor.

Well, I'm glad, I'm glad you mentioned that because that 

[00:14:24] Emma Pickett: is something you wanna check out if a. If a baby does refuse one side or an older nurse thing refuses one side, that is sometimes a cancer red flag. So yeah, you're absolutely right. Thank you for bringing that up. I didn't want to unless you did, but that, I'm glad you checked that out.

But it's very often a preference. That's nothing to do with anything sinister 

[00:14:42] Ann Owen: and then nickie, um, she was able to sort me out when the other one would get a bit engorged. So it worked for me, but then when she stopped this one boob, it was like noticeably different. It was hilarious. And, and 

[00:14:56] Emma Pickett: spoiler alert, what's happened to your boobs since, if you don't mind me asking, I'm not gonna ask you to lift up your top, but people who often are uni bing, are really worried they're gonna end up side side.

No, no. They're normal again. Both. Both back to the same signs. Yeah. No, no long term difference at all. Okay. Just a bit 

[00:15:09] Ann Owen: more pancakey. 

[00:15:11] Emma Pickett: But not, not not asymmetrical though. No. And, and the pancakes is about pregnancy, not necessarily about the breastfeeding. That's true. Which I'm sure you already know, so, but I like 

[00:15:20] Ann Owen: my boobs.

I don't have any problems with my boobs. Good, 

[00:15:22] Emma Pickett: good. I'm glad to hear that. So you mentioned at the beginning that one of the reasons that you started the project was that, is that feeling of isolation. So you moved from London to. The new forest and that for people who, dunno, geography. Whereabouts in, in the uk?

Are we talking like south coast? Yeah, so it's a bit rural, beautiful forest. Literally forest, which is, yeah, maybe why you ended up with the forest, but you literally didn't know anybody. You didn't have any social network at all. And 

[00:15:49] Ann Owen: Kevin went to London every day. He went back and forth every day. So it was kind of like for the first year of Forest Life, I was, it kind of felt like I was just on my own.

Then when Covid happened, it was amazing because then Kevin got laid off and like made, you know, all that stuff happened. So he was home and then now he works from home. So it ended up being all good. Okay. But yeah, so I started this project 'cause I just wanted to meet other people, part of it as a way of meeting people and connecting with other women.

[00:16:16] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So do you, did you have a particular epiphany one day when you thought, oh my God, this is how I'm gonna do it? Do you remember how the idea came to you? 

[00:16:22] Ann Owen: Gosh. Probably just laying in bed, boobing like, and, and I would have like a burst of inspiration. 'cause that's usually how things happen to me. It's like, I'll have nothing and then all of a sudden I get like loads of ideas and then I, I try to act on them, but it's usually impossible to act on them these days with kids and stuff.

Although now that they're getting older, I'm starting to be able to, so I did that for a couple years, like kind of focusing on like two year olds, three year olds, but then. Nixey became like just before she turned six. 'cause Forrest ended up stopping way sooner than she did, and I wasn't actually ready.

[00:16:57] Emma Pickett: You say way sooner, but he was still nearly five, wasn't he? Yeah. So, so some people would say, gosh, that's a pretty good innings. I know that's not exactly way sooner, but I guess it's a year, A year less than, than Nixey. Which must have felt unusual for you. 

[00:17:11] Ann Owen: Yeah, and I, I had just assumed. He would boob as long as she did, and because now I'm surrounded by women boobing 6, 7, 8 year olds, so now like five year olds, four year olds.

Oh, they're so baby. 

[00:17:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah. You know what I 

[00:17:25] Ann Owen: mean? It's like my whole perception has evolved and changed to what I consider that every day 

[00:17:30] Emma Pickett: when his breastfeeding journey finished. It felt more abrupt for you? Did it? Was it? Was that emotionally difficult for you? How, so? You described with Nixey that she'd sometimes go weeks between feeds and it would be a big long gap.

What was Forrest ending like? 

[00:17:43] Ann Owen: Kind of similar-ish, but it was just, he was just so much younger and because I think because he was the last one, it affected me more, I think physically, like hormonal wise, and I think I'm still dealing with it, or it's like perimenopause. I think it's a combination. Of everything, you know, like I had like weight gain I think, but I think it's because I stopped breastfeeding.

I think that kind of triggered a lot of stuff. 

[00:18:09] Emma Pickett: I mean the perimenopause weaning overlap is something we could do a whole other discussion on. 'cause it's, yeah, so quite often continuing to breastfeed sort of masks, perimenopausal symptoms and, and they're very intertwined and it's difficult to know what's going on, particularly the mood stuff because you get that oxytocin, um, release and that elevates your mood.

And then when that's gone, sometimes we do find that some of the mental symptoms of perimenopause can be an issue too. But also, I guess your identity's changed. You know, you were a breastfeeding mom for, for such a long time, and when you were no longer that, you know, you're reevaluating who you are as a person.

I'm not necessarily saying you Anne, but one is. No, the mother is, but I did though. So all those things are happening at the same time. It's a lot to go, A lot to have on our shoulders. So your project, you initially started with the sort of younger nurse lings and then Yeah. And then you specifically started to say, right now, five years plus.

Tell me about what, what led you to that, that decision? 

[00:19:03] Ann Owen: Well, it started, it's more four year plus for the book, but now I have a lot of four year olds. I need, I want more five and up. Okay. So four, like I started with four because that's when four stopped and I think that's when they start school in the uk.

So I think that's kind of like a good, like a nice place. To start them. 

[00:19:23] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I think that's a good point. 'cause a lot of people, there's this really funny notion of they've got to stop before they start school. They can't breastfe when they're at school. Um, which is absolute nonsense. Obviously there are lots and lots of children that start formal school and then, and they're breastfeeding happily.

I think people have this myth that. Your child's gonna run around the playground shouting out that the fact that they breastfeed and then suddenly there's a whole crowd of bullies are gonna surround them and there's gonna be this horrible, horrible rejection by their peer group. But my experience both as a primary school teacher and as a, as a parent and as a lactation consultant, is that simply does not happen.

Children do not judge other children because first of all, they hardly talk about it. A and B, even if they did, um, other children wouldn't necessarily understand what they were talking about. C, they don't judge. They just, they don't think about it in those terms. 

[00:20:09] Ann Owen: Funny you say that, 'cause that's one of the issues I get a lot from women wanting to take part.

They come back, a lot of them have come back saying, oh, my husband now, it's always a husband that has an issue saying, well, what are they gonna think when they're 15? And seeing the photo to their friends. It's like. And they'll be like, I was breastfed and loved. Like, why is that even an issue? 

[00:20:32] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, but but having said that though, I think that's something that.

Parents have to think about because I mean, I dunno if you've read Sarah Awell Smith's book about child rights, there are issues around taking pictures of children and obviously we can't get children's consent, so, so parents do have to have thought that through. Oh, absolutely. And, and, and you know, for some, they may feel as though that that is a barrier for them.

And I, and I know, and I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but I know that you wouldn't judge anyone who didn't feel they could take part in the project because we all come at this from, with different relationships to our bodies. And we all come at this from. Different places. Um, and it is, it does take a bit of bravery just because of where we are in society.

Oh, absolutely. It 

[00:21:10] Ann Owen: does. And I have a lot of people that send me messages saying they would love to take part, but they don't want their child. Image to be shown online, et cetera. And I understand that. 

[00:21:20] Emma Pickett: Yeah. But luckily there are enough people who are, yeah. Who are coming forward and are, you know, uh, happy to be part of the project.

So you started online, you've had the project featured in different magazines, but you're working on a book. Tell me what your plan is for the book. 

[00:21:32] Ann Owen: Yeah, so this is really exciting. So this was in 2023. I miss doing projects like something that's to do with society, something that can help people. And I was like, what can I do with my life right now?

Like, I have kids, I can't travel, I can't do, you know, I'm quite restricted of what I can do. So I was like, I should take my book, take my breastfeeding project, and just take it further and actually make a proper book out of it. And this is something I'm doing for myself. It's like. My little project that I get to work on, like, besides being a mom, it's just something I get to do and I get to meet people and it's like, it's bringing me so much joy and so much happiness.

Like last night before coming here, I was reading my journal 'cause I have a book where I write about my ex, my experience of working on this project and rereading it. I was making myself so happy. 'cause like in there I'm like, I've met so and so today and they were the most. Lovely, beautiful person and I just love connecting with strangers and have them share bits and pieces about themselves to you.

It's just so beautiful and I'm meeting the most amazing women all over the country. When I first started, I had just got my driver's license like not too long before, so in 2023 i I to Cornwall in December, and that was the first time I had driven that far on my own. So I was really anxious, but then I did that one and then I was like, okay, now I can do another one.

So then I started going further afield, and then I started doing crazy road trips, like 12 hour days of driving like all the way up to Leeds and over to Norwick and then to Wales. And I'm just like, I can do anything now. And it's like, those are really fun, but it's like a mission. It's really challenging to like.

Organize it all. But I kinda like that. I, I like organizing things. I think I'm a Virgo. Mm-hmm. So I think there's a part of me that, like I thrive on making things work and challenging and I like challenging myself. And because I become a bit like an endurance challenge, I. 

[00:23:30] Emma Pickett: I mean, gosh, with all, all that kit in your car driving 12 hours, that is, that is impressive.

So, so you are now taking more requests you haven't yet photographed everybody. We are. You're still bringing requests in this, this podcast episode will go out end of April, I'm guessing. Early summer summertimes and nice time of year to take pictures. 

[00:23:48] Ann Owen: It's the perfect time for road trips because you have long days and I have more time to do, get further distances.

[00:23:54] Emma Pickett: So if somebody is interested in taking part in the project, we'll put information in the show notes. About how they can find you and, and reach out. And if you do, do travel far, obviously it's nice if there's a little group of people in one space. Yeah. So if people can, you know, go on their local Facebook groups or through their local breastfeeding support groups, find more than one person, a little community of people to all be photographed on the same day, that obviously makes, makes your time a bit more efficient.

And I say this with somebody, as somebody who's done work with photography projects in the past around breastfeeding, it can be more challenging to get a diverse range of moms represented for, for lots of different reasons. Um, tell me a little bit about your journey with that and trying to have more diversity.

[00:24:35] Ann Owen: Yes. Um, that is a huge challenge that I am finding. Yeah. It's very difficult finding diversity and getting a range of different people. 'cause at the moment. I can't control who come to me, you know, so it's whoever, I'm not really reaching out to people. I want people to come to me. And, um, at the moment it's basically one group of women, mostly that I've been photographing, 

[00:25:02] Emma Pickett: and they, and they are mainly white women.

From, from, yeah. And, and mainly, so you talk to me about, about maybe mainly sort of upper middle class old, richer women. Older mothers. 

[00:25:14] Ann Owen: Yeah. Maybe like middle class. I mean, I, I think I have a few of a wide variety there, but I think definitely a lot are older moms, and I think that's because I. They've done all their research and it's like they're, they have all the information readily available to them about the benefits of natural term we weaning.

[00:25:35] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, we get, there's a little bit of a sort of, you know, self-fulfilling prophecy thing, whereas, you know, somebody, the images we see online tend to be white women breastfeeding. Those are the images that get represented in courses. Those are the, those are what we see on websites. That's what we see in advertising.

And, you know, we could have a, a longer conversation about, you know, what's going on for black women and women with darker skin tones. Sometimes they do feel, you know, if they're feeding in public, they're more likely to be a gaze. They're more like, you know, they're more likely to have people looking at them.

They're more likely to feel in a room where they're the potentially the only black person. They may feel more uncomfortable breastfeeding in public. And also the idea that they have a responsibility and they have a duty and they have to represent a whole population. That's a burden we put on women with, you know, black and brown women as well, such a burden.

Um, so that, you know, nobody has a responsibility to come forward and to be part of a project. You know, they have enough other things going on in terms of being exactly, being mothers and working and all sorts of stuff. And then, and then younger mothers potentially, you know, may have more economic pressure, may not necessarily have a wider social network of supporting them through breastfeeding.

Women from low incomes may not have the time to take half a day off to be part of a photography project. I mean, there's lots of reasons why some populations may not be able to come forward, but you have had, I know the lovely Venetia Yeah. Who, um, I love her. I did a live with on my page not so long ago, and I'm part of a project with her called Spectrum Lactation, and I've mentioned that in the past.

And I'll, I'll put that in the show notes as well. And so she's the coordinator of this project that she and I have been working on for many years together and. We are nearly there. We are nearly ready to launch, but the focus of Spectrum lactation is to represent a diversity of images of the breast. And, and she's such a, such an advocate for natural term breastfeeding.

And, and she spoke at the A BM conference, um, last year. She's so brave and 

[00:27:21] Ann Owen: Oh, she is, she is such an inspiration. She is like when you talk to her, you just can feel her power. Like, I don't know. I saw her a BM presentation and I was just in awe of her. 

[00:27:33] Emma Pickett: Yeah. She takes no prisoners. She's just fantastic. I mean, that, and that confidence just leaks out and affects everyone else.

So I'm so glad that she's, she's part of this project. Now, we're not gonna show her image in the photographs we're gonna put on our Instagram pages just because you're saving that for something else. But those are people who will buy the book. Hopefully we'll get to see, um, VEISHA and, and, um, yeah. So I guess, I guess it's not fair of us to say, please come forward if you're from a diverse or underrepresented group because.

You know, it's not the responsibility of that person, but if you are part of the community and you know, somebody in your community who you may be able to support to be part of the project or encourage or, or facilitate that. So that's something maybe, um, that somebody could do and to help you represent, um, a more diverse representation.

[00:28:19] Ann Owen: Also, like the age range of 18 to 24, I maybe have, I don't think I have any in that age group either. I may have a couple. Like in the early twenties, but that's also another one that is really hard that I don't have very many. Okay. Because I, I know we all exist. I believe they're out there somewhere. 

[00:28:40] Emma Pickett: Yeah.

Yeah. 

[00:28:41] Ann Owen: Hopefully you'll find, because it feels so normal to me now. It's amazing. 

[00:28:46] Emma Pickett: I want to tell you about my brand new book called The Story of Jesse's Milk Keys. It's a picture book for two to six year olds, and I wanted to write a book that was about weaning, but also not about weaning, because breastfeeding journeys end in all sorts of different ways.

So Jesse's story is presented as having three possible endings. In one ending, his mom is pregnant and Jesse's going to share his milk with a new baby. In the second, his mum was getting really tired and it's time for some mother led weaning. And in the third, we see a self weaning journey as Jesse's attachment to breastfeeding gradually fades.

There are beautiful illustrations by the very talented Jojo Ford, and the feedback from parents so far has been so lovely and touching and I'm really excited to share the book with you. If you're interested in my other books for Older Children, I have the Breast book, which is a guide for nine to 14 year olds.

And it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And I also have two books about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding for a 10% discount on the last two. Go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code.

Mm PE 10 Makes milk picket Emma. 10. Let's have a look at some of these pictures. So we're gonna have a look at some photographs together. We're gonna have a look at just four photographs, and of those of you who are listening to this podcast, if you go to Instagram and you go to Anne's account, which is A-N-N-O-N, OOU, EN, do photo FOTO.

You can find the images that we're talking about posted this week, and I will also. Put that post on my page as well. So the first one I'm looking at is a black and white image, and we've got a mom wearing a beautiful, flowery dress. Breastfeeding, I'm guessing that's her el older ling. Yeah. Who's on the breast directly while she's feeding, she's, she's in a forest, she's outside, and then there's a littler person.

Who is not breastfeeding at all, who is looking the other way busy doing something with a bush. Uh, what do you remember of the day you took this photo? 

[00:30:53] Ann Owen: This is Lucy and she is just an incredible person we met in the forest. And you know how sometimes you just meet people right away and you just know you're gonna be friends with them.

She's one of those people. And that's what I love about this project too. 'cause it's like brought on some really incredible friendships as well. And her son at the time of the picture, I think he was six years old and we just had fun. Like the, the boys were running around the forest. We were trying to like coerce them, trying to get them to come.

They wanted boob. Boob is always usually easy, so, but with the older kids, you have to sometimes be a little bit more patient because. Sometimes they don't want to do things. They wanna do things in their own time. 

[00:31:35] Emma Pickett: Yeah, for sure. And And if you only breastfeed once a day or whatever, or every a few days, why would you want to breastfeed?

Just 'cause there's some blooming lady there with a camera. I mean Exactly. A agency is so important. So I'm guessing it hasn't always worked out that you've had a change when you've needed a feed. 

[00:31:48] Ann Owen: No, and there's been times also like sessions where it just hasn't worked out. The kid just didn't want boob.

And that's okay. You'll have those. It's like, okay, well we tried. 

[00:31:59] Emma Pickett: So Lucy's kind of laughing in this lovely sort of joyful way in the picture. 

[00:32:03] Ann Owen: That's just her. She's just like oozes joy and love, and you just feel like when you're with her, you just feel good when you're around her. We just had fun. We like laughed a lot, and then I just snap away.

We're just chatting. Then it's just really natural. I brought a chair. 

[00:32:18] Emma Pickett: I kind of love how the younger child is the one not fussed about the breastfeeding. Yeah, me too. That's why younger child looks like they kind of would happily wander off, which is great. Which I guess is a representative almost of what happened with you with Nixey and Forrest in that.

Yeah, Forrest was less bothered than than Nixy, and sometimes that is the way it works out. The older child has that stronger connection to breastfeeding, even in a tandem feeding situation. Let's look at the next picture. So this is a mom who's now indoors and she's tandem feeding in the sense that she's literally breastfeeding both at the same time.

And I'm guessing the older child is the one wearing the yellow dress. Tell me what you remember about this day. 

[00:32:52] Ann Owen: So that was on my, that was my first session on my first trip to Cornwall. And um, that's Eloise, ALA and Callum. ALA's six. Callum's four. And she also has a 2-year-old that. She breastfeeds, although at the time of the photo, I think Isla was five.

Kaylinn was three, but I talked to her recently and now ALA's six. She's still breastfeeding. She's breastfeeding three. She has four on the way and she might be breastfeeding a fourth. 

[00:33:22] Emma Pickett: Ooh, I know. Quad and I. That's amazing. Think try Andum breastfeeding when you're feeding three, breastfeeding four. That takes, uh, some organization, but definitely possible.

Obviously there are people who are out there doing it and she 

[00:33:35] Ann Owen: was amazing. Like yeah, I was just blown away like three. She was like, have, when I met her it was three nurse lings. Now it could possibly be four. So I think that's quite amazing. And that one we just hung out in their bedroom because I had the best light.

I kind of had a little peek around the house and um, they were in the middle of trying to move as well, so they had a lot of stuff going on, but it was a lovely session. Her husband made me like the best cup of coffee and a coffee drinker, and it was like the perfect, like first session of my day on my first road trip.

On my own. So that was really good. And the light was perfect. They were all like really easy 'cause they all like started breastfeeding right away and like all took turns and it was like effortless really. So this very 

[00:34:21] Emma Pickett: early session then, your first road trip. How did you get the people to come forward for this one?

This was just Instagram requests? Yeah. Where were your early requests? 

[00:34:30] Ann Owen: So Instagram and then Facebook. I would find some random like groups on Facebook, but mostly it was word of mouth, so people started sharing in their groups and then somebody shared in a Cornwall group. And then I had a, like a, a little group of people in Cornwall, so that worked out really perfectly.

And it was that group, it was Cornwall that triggered me to kind of do like the bigger road trips. If I'm gonna travel, I wanted to have loads of people in one area to make it worthwhile because if I'm driving a long ways, but then I realized that's actually not realistic because if I want to get the older kids, your window also is quite short with the older kids because they could stop any day.

[00:35:10] Emma Pickett: Yeah, 

[00:35:11] Ann Owen: you might not find that many. So I've realized that. That's how my other road trip started. So I might have one in Cambridge or one in Norwick or Norwich and one in Norfolk. Like, it kind of made it so that if I wanna make, finish this project, if I wanna make it happen, I just have to go out and do it.

Even if it's one person there, one person there. But if it's like an hour and a half between, then it doesn't feel bad driving 12 hours because it feels doable. 

[00:35:36] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I hear what you're saying. If the, if every town had a hundred people breastfeeding, five year olds, you probably wouldn't need the project 'cause they No, exactly.

It would be normalized and everyone would feel empowered and it would be a different place. Um, let's look at the next picture. So. We've got somebody with a hippo in their face. Okay. Which, which is, uh, which is such a great representation of breastfeeding older children. The number of people who breastfeed with toys and objects thrust into their faces is, is high.

[00:36:02] Ann Owen: I haven't shared anything from this session. It was one of the most beautiful special sessions. Like this was also another Cornwell one. They live on a boat. Oh. I just, you know, like, you just meet people and they, you just feel right at home. I just felt like such, so right at home with them, I could have hung out with them probably all day.

Um, we spent like a good couple of hours. Like sometimes I'm out like in 20 minutes, it depends, but sometimes, like this one, the last session of the day, I ended up being there two hours just chatting about life and it was just really relaxed. Um, which was nice. 'cause when I do my longer road trips, I don't have that time because I'm on such a tight timescale.

So I'm kind of like in, out and out, try to be. So that's the only thing I don't like about them, but I. Nothing I can do about that. But this one, um, I came there to photograph Lowen and Casper and at the time, Lowen is the younger one. I think he's two in that photo. And Casper is the one who I went to photograph.

He was five, five and a half. But the boy you see there, that's Eli. And he is eight years old. I wasn't expecting him to be part of the project at all when I arrived. And we were just, it was just like we were like had created this most peaceful, beautiful, calm energy. I can't explain it. It was like I was like in a dream, like I was dreaming.

It just felt so nice and all of a sudden it just, in the most natural of ways, Eli came and just wanted to have a bit of boob and he only has boob like every few months for maybe a couple of seconds, you know? But it's like a source of comfort and it's like that nice connection. It's beautiful. So, yeah, so that was just really a special moment to me because it just organically happened.

I didn't even know that it was going to happen. 

[00:37:46] Emma Pickett: Oh, I'm just imagining that's his one boob in, in a few months, and he's got a, his mom's having a hippo thrust in her face by a small, small sibling. That's the way it is when you've got more than one child. Um, yeah, that's the, and, and again, the mom is laughing.

There's joy coming from the mom's face, which is obviously really special because it, it just represents how these breastfeeding journeys are about everybody in the, in the family, and it's about the emotional connection between everybody, which is, which is really special. That's, that's a great one.

That's a great one. So Eli, Eli was eight. Is he the old oldest you've featured? 

[00:38:18] Ann Owen: Yes, I've featured another 8-year-old. And yeah, eight's my oldest. Okay. I had a few seven year olds and a bunch of six year olds and a bunch of five year olds. Like the six year olds are becoming more and more, I'm getting more and more six year olds now I think as well.

[00:38:36] Emma Pickett: And then looking at this, the last picture of the ones we're gonna talk about today, so this is. Is that sitting? Is that Heather? What she's sitting in? Yes. Heather? Yes. Oh my God, it's 

[00:38:45] Ann Owen: so pretty. 

[00:38:46] Emma Pickett: It is gorgeous. Yes. 

[00:38:47] Ann Owen: That one is just beautiful. 

[00:38:50] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So Heather's the a flower we get on, you know, moland and in the uk tiny little purple flowers, although that comes in lots of different colors.

Um, so this mum is feeding both children at the same time. Yeah, they're twins. What dos, remember? What do you remember by the state? Oh, okay. Twins. Okay. So 

[00:39:04] Ann Owen: Lily, she's been part of this project since I very first started my project. Back in 2020, she was like one of the very first people. And it just so happens every year as I keep going with this project, I just keep saying, let's do it again.

Let's do it again. Come let's do some more. Let's do some more. 'cause she, yeah, so she's been a huge inspiration to me actually. 'cause she was one of the first people that I met that was breastfeeding older kids. She's just an inspir inspiration really. That session was just really nice 'cause it was like in August and the Heather was in bloom, and it's just beautiful.

Like I love that. I love having women in nature and stuff, but for this project, when I go on my road trips, I want them all in, everybody's home. So I was kind of like in their nest. Logistically it's easier for me as well. It's like it would be impossible to meet publicly to make it work. Yeah, but also I just like, it's like that bit of documentary aspect of it, like you get a little glimpse of something, of somebody else, and I just love that.

I just love meeting new people. I love going into their home and just, I don't know, it just really makes me happy. Oh, good. Well, I'm 

[00:40:11] Emma Pickett: glad after all that driving, you deserve to have something at the end that makes you feel happy. So obviously you're, you're getting this opportunity to make these personal connections and you're meeting all these amazing people.

But there's a wider mission going on here. Absolutely. Yeah. And, and that's, I mean, you use the word normalizing. Is that the word you're comfortable using? Yeah. So, so normalizing, visualizing, whatever you want to say. We want people I like 

[00:40:33] Ann Owen: visualizing. 

[00:40:34] Emma Pickett: Yeah. There's some people are saying visualizing is the way to go.

'cause normalizing implies it wasn't normal on some level or I think, yeah, 

[00:40:40] Ann Owen: yeah, yeah. Which I agree. It does have that kind of connotation. Doesn't, so I like visualizing. I'm gonna use, 

[00:40:46] Emma Pickett: use visualizing. I 

[00:40:47] Ann Owen: can't really say 

[00:40:48] Emma Pickett: it. Visualizing. You can. Um, so we're also, so we're utiliz natural term breastfeeding and breastfeeding beyond 3, 4, 5.

And we're empowering people that want to do it. So, you know how you were in the early days feeling alone, you know, not necessarily knowing anyone else. You know your book and, and when we people see images in magazines, you are helping people to feel less alone and, and connected to this wider community that's out there.

I'm guessing because of the work Instagram world, you can't actually necessarily show everything on social media. Actually. Now we say we're gonna show these images on Instagram. What's, what's your current experience with sharing breastfeeding images? 

[00:41:26] Ann Owen: I haven't had any problems feeding breastfeeding images.

If a nipples on show I do, but I just squid it out. 

[00:41:33] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So we should be fine. So no nipples are, are acceptable. Um, um, breastfeeding is acceptable. Um. And have you ever had any negative feedback from this project? Has anyone said anything negative? 

[00:41:45] Ann Owen: No. 

[00:41:46] Emma Pickett: Good. No. I'm very glad to hear it. None 

[00:41:48] Ann Owen: at all. And I, when I first started this project, I was worried I was, I was scared.

I think I was a lot, I was feeling like some of the mums that about, you know, how they send me messages about their anxieties. I absolutely felt like that. In the beginning of this project, I was worried that I was gonna have all this crazy like. Negative messages from the public or whatever, but I haven't had one.

Good. And now I don't care. Even if I did, 

[00:42:14] Emma Pickett: now you're ready for it. Even if they do come, um, yeah, I'm sure you'll be your soldier for the people who are part of the project. 

[00:42:20] Ann Owen: But I think it also kind of represents of how I was when I first started this project. 'cause when I first started it, I think I was a bit nervous as well.

So I think I had that energy. So the people coming to me were more nervous and it, it was harder to get people involved. But now that I've been doing it, I'm, I'm feeling like it's all how it is. And now more and more with older children are coming. So I kind of think it's like. A mirror image almost of how I am, if that makes sense.

[00:42:49] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And obviously the more people see, yeah. You get that snowball effect of, again, it's, it's that comfort that comes from community and not feeling alone. I mean, you mentioned that, that very poignant story at the beginning about the, the mum who wanted to take part in the project, but, but felt that sense of shame.

Have you have had, have you had any other moments where somebody was gonna take part and then they've sort of stepped away? 

[00:43:08] Ann Owen: Yes. I've had that happen maybe a handful of times, like sometimes the night before. One person, like the husband all of a sudden was upset and made a comment about, well, and she had thought this, her husband was super supportive.

So then he made a comment about how, well, what is he going to, what is their kid going to feel if his kid friends see it? But like it made her feel like he didn't support her and like making, putting shame on it when it's something so usual, like something as it should be. And that really kind of like, I think shocked her.

So there, you know, I've had lots of tears with women and lots of cries when I meet with them and, you know, big hugs and stuff as well sometimes when it doesn't work out. But, um, yeah, it's really heartbreaking 'cause a lot of people want to, but then a few like. Worry about things like another person took part and they are like, they have a supportive family, but then they think that they should like stop breastfeeding.

The older one, they're supportive but not a hundred percent supportive. I think it's a lot from the extended families that people seem to have issues with that from my experience. 

[00:44:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, that's my experience too, supporting with this population. I mean, the UK breastfeeding rates are as you know, very, very, very low and even lower, you know, in the generation before.

So lots of the grandparents and older family members would not have breastfed. And this doesn't feel their normal. No, but this book is, this projects for them too. Absolutely. These images of, you know, we can only change society, you know, one brick at a time 

[00:44:48] Ann Owen: because I don't even know how my family feel about it.

Because there's a big age gap in my family. Like there's a 19 year and a 16 year age gap between like my sister and my brother. I have no idea what they think. I have no idea. I. But no one's ever said anything to me, so it's fine. 

[00:45:04] Emma Pickett: Um, and silence is better than a negative comment. I mean, people don't, we don't have the idea that we have to have approval from everybody.

I think that's something I also question. I think some people, when they do have negative experiences, think that their duty is to educate everybody and they've got to convert everybody. And if they haven't managed to do that, they failed somehow. But actually sometimes it's just about, you know, we, you don't agree with what I'm doing or you don't understand what I'm doing, that's okay.

It doesn't affect me. 

[00:45:27] Ann Owen: It's absolutely okay. I don't think we should ever be converting anybody ever. Like, really, we should just allow people to be, be ourselves. And that's it. Just focus, you know, 

[00:45:37] Emma Pickett: we should expect kindness. Absolutely, we should, we should expect respect, but our responsibilities to ourselves and to our children, not necessarily Absolutely.

That. That wider, wider responsibility. So do you have photo sessions planned in your diary? What's coming up for you? I have 

[00:45:53] Ann Owen: a few at the, I had one in January. I'm just now gearing up to like, get going again now that we're getting past the winter. So yeah, so I have a few, I've been emailing just the other day, so, but I don't have anything set in, I'm just trying to like, make things happen.

I'm about to start putting my, like my call out again to all like the Facebook groups and see what happens. And usually when I do that. Like it starts happening, but I'm still, I'm just getting outta my winter mode where I don't do anything. 

[00:46:24] Emma Pickett: Well, hopefully when this episode goes out, end of end of April. I hope so.

End of April. There'll be a little flurry from this. I really hope so. 'cause your photographs are so beautiful and, and such a great opportunity for someone to have those photographs that often we don't take, people don't take pictures when they're breastfeeding. Literally, they. They can't necessarily physically manage it.

I know, um, they may be on their own, they may be busy. But to have a professional photographer who is so supportive of natural term breastfeeding is such a gift for somebody. 'cause lots of people who do photo sessions with family photographers might say, oh, can you take a picture of us breastfeeding? But they may not want to do that if they're breastfeeding are six, seven, 8-year-old.

Whereas they'll know when they meet you that you are more than supportive. And what a lovely opportunity that is for somebody to, to have that, those photographs. And I think 

[00:47:06] Ann Owen: it's important to document these things. Because they're like, they're treasures. You know? The only thing that I care about are my photos and my photo albums.

Like if my house were to burn, burn down, that's what I would grab. 

[00:47:18] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And tell me a bit more about the book. Have you, do you have a publisher in mind yet? What's your, what's your I have a 

[00:47:23] Ann Owen: dream publisher, but I don't wanna say it in case. Don't wanna jx. You don't, don't worry. 

[00:47:26] Emma Pickett: You don't. So is it gonna be a big, glossy coffee table book?

What, what? Where do you imagine it, what do you imagine it looking like? Well, I 

[00:47:33] Ann Owen: don't know if you're familiar with like Portrait of Britain and Portrait of Humanity books. 

[00:47:37] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:47:38] Ann Owen: So I was kind of like, I like that. So like a hundred portraits, like with the, a picture on one page and then like their text on the other.

[00:47:46] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:47:47] Ann Owen: And it'll probably evolve as I go on. Hopefully I'll get a publisher. If not, I'll just go the self-publishing route. Yeah. I'm not there yet. I'm half, I'm like over halfway, but then I might add more texts. I don't know yet. It's all, it's still evolving. 

[00:48:02] Emma Pickett: So you'd like a hundred families? Is that your plan?

[00:48:04] Ann Owen: Yeah. 

[00:48:05] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:48:05] Ann Owen: But then I might need, I might want more if I'm trying to get more of a variety. 

[00:48:10] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. You might need more than a hundred to get the right. A hundred. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, very, very best of luck with it, Anne. And I'm, yeah, as I said, I'm so grateful for, for the work that you're doing and also to those people who are taking part.

And again, I just want to reiterate that not everyone is able to take part or feels able to, and there is Absolutely no, that's absolutely okay. There's absolutely no judgment at all. No. Um, on that. 

[00:48:32] Ann Owen: No, because it's a, I think it's like your personality. Exactly. You either other type of person to do that sort of thing or you're not and that's okay.

Exactly. 

[00:48:39] Emma Pickett: And it's not about bravery, it's not about betraying the cause. No. Um, as you say, it's just about, comes down to personality and for some people it's not something they'd want to do and that's totally fine. Yes. But, um, for those who are taking part, thank you for supporting, um, what Anne's doing and uh, yeah.

I'm very excited to hear when the book does come out. Yeah, and if people want to take part in the project, go to Anne's Instagram page. She's got a super easy link to follow, which explains how the project works and gives you an opportunity to put, pull in your, put in your personal information and uh, yeah, you get to meet Anne on a road trip, which sounds good fun.

Thank you so much for your time today, Anne. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you want to make sure we cover? 

[00:49:17] Ann Owen: No, I don't think so. I mean, like with the road trips, my sessions are usually an hour long. They are a bit more rushed so you don't get the super relaxed me, you get me more on a mission, but I do try to like have a little bit of chat and like I always have to have the chat beforehand, but it just, um, yeah, and you just need to be really flexible with the time and timings and stuff like that because traffic, when you're driving hour distances can vary.

Yeah, of 

[00:49:47] Emma Pickett: course. I guess if people are at home, hopefully they can just hang out and wait for you to arrive. Cool. Well, thank you so much, Anna. And yeah, we'll watch this space and see what happens next. And you, and we can see your work on your website. You're in Juno magazine quite often, aren't you as well?

Yeah. So, so we'll see you there. Um, and I know you've been featured in the A BM magazine too, so you're out and about. Um, and, uh, yeah, and as I said, look on our web, our Instagram pages this week for the, the images that we've just discussed so you can look at them while we're talking about them. 

[00:50:17] Ann Owen: Thanks for your time today.

Thank you so much for having me. It's honestly, it's such an honor.

[00:50:26] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett, IB clc, and on Twitter at Makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.