Jessica's story - Breastfeeding and work trips

There’s a common assumption that if you breastfeed, you can never be apart from your child, and you have to sacrifice career ambitions if you are going to breastfeed longer term. My guest this week is here to bust that myth, and show how you can both breastfeed and also travel for work.

Jessica Greenfield is a singer-songwriter and member of Noel Gallagher’s High Flying Birds. She has continued to feed her daughter Ava, while touring with the band and balancing work. We talk about her relationship with Ava, maintaining her breast health on the road, family support, and her plans for the future.

Follow Jessica on Instagram at @greenfieldsings

My latest book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This Transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett and I'm a Lactation Consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end.

And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end, too. Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing, and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm really excited to be talking to Jess, Jessica Greenfield, who is a singer from Bedfordshire. As you'll have seen from the title of the episode, we're going to be talking about travelling and breastfeeding. Now, I don't mean taking your child for a funky trip around Southeast Asia.

I mean that you have moments where you may have to travel away from your child. You might have work trips, you might need to go, um, you know, for a few days at a time or even longer. How can that be compatible with breastfeeding? How can you make it work? We're going to talk about some of the real finer details.

Details of that and spoiler alert, Jessica is still breastfeeding her four year old Ava. So she definitely made it work. Congratulations on breastfeeding until four. Um, so far, Jess, that's fantastic. Really well done. So tell us about what it's like breastfeeding a four year old. Tell us what her breastfeeding journeys, uh, so breastfeeding day is like at the moment, how often you're feeding, give us the details.

[00:01:44] Jessica Greenfield: Um, she is at preschool so she is away most of the day and then she'll come back and she'll want to have boobie on the sofa straight away. Um, and then she goes off and we play and stuff like that and then I tend to feed her to sleep. Um, and then, um, she wakes up in the night pretty much every night around the same time I would say somewhere between four and five and just wants to, wants to feed, feed, feed, feed, feed, feed.

Sometimes I say mommy, um, Ava, mommy's really tired. I have to roll over and she'll say just one more bit, one more bit. So she has another bit and then she will quite often snuggle up behind me. And I always, and I feel kind of guilty about it, but it's pretty consistent. 

[00:02:31] Emma Pickett: When you say you feel guilty about it, you feel guilty about the fact that she's still feeding?

Or you feel guilty about the fact that you're saying, I need to sleep? Yes. 

[00:02:40] Jessica Greenfield: Yeah. Because I feel like there's something that she needs and I'm, you know, whether it's just the connection with me because she's been away during the day at school or whether it's, she's thirsty or she's having a growth spurt or something.

Um, So, yeah, it's, um, it, that can be tiring, but because we sleep together, I don't feel, um, you know, I tend to be able to kind of doze in and out, so we, we do pretty much have quite a good sleep, but I have to make sure I go to bed early, otherwise, if I, if I decide to have like a Netflix binge, that's, that's it, I'll be exhausted the next day.

[00:03:17] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So she's breastfeeding, that, yeah, that reconnection feed coming back from preschool, then, and then breastfeeding at bedtime as well. And then, and then she goes from bedtime pretty much solidly through to sort of four or five o'clock in the morning. That's your sort of sleep. So I guess it's interesting how people define things differently.

Some people would describe that as her sleeping through and just having a morning feed. Um, although it may not feel like that, especially in the winter when it's pitch black. Um, and yeah, I mean what you said about it being thirst or reconnection or who knows what, but it sounds like at the moment it works for you.

You don't feel like you need to change it right now. 

[00:03:54] Jessica Greenfield: I think I'm, I think I'm a bit scared to change it, to be honest, because I found like a, like it's in a pattern and I don't like to. I don't want to rock the boat. 

[00:04:04] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, her needs are being met at the moment. You're getting enough sleep, just maybe a bit of Netflix deprivation, but you're, you're able to make it work for you.

And there'll be a time when if it doesn't work for you, you know, you'll feel the need to move forward in a different way. But right now it's working for you. What about the days when she's not going to school? What's the sort of typical non school day with, when it comes to feeding? 

[00:04:25] Jessica Greenfield: Probably a bit more, I'd say.

Um, a bit of play, we go out somewhere, come back, she might want a little bit. Um, yeah, not loads, but definitely she wants that connection here and there. Excuse me, and she's at the moment like obsessed with. my husband with her dad. She just wants to be with him all the time. So I think for her, the breastfeeding is, Oh, it's mommy time.

Now I'll go back and play with dad. Now it's mommy time. And yeah, she, yeah, she's pretty, she's pretty independent, but she definitely likes. She likes to pretend she's a baby sometimes and stuff like that. It's really cute. I 

[00:05:07] Emma Pickett: mean, it's nice to hear you talk about how close she is to your, your husband. I mean, that's, that really shows how breastfeeding is not a barrier to that relationship being developed at all, which I think some people in the early days, you know, might have a myth or a preconception that that is the case.

And obviously not, not at all forever. And then can I just ask you about starting preschool? So I think one of the things that sometimes. People are nervous about, and in my experience as a primary school teacher and a previous deputy head and a lactation consultant without reason, sometimes people are nervous about children starting school or preschool when they're verbal and they're still breastfeeding.

People are worried that they're going to say something or other children are going to react or other parents are going to react. Have you had anything like that? 

[00:05:49] Jessica Greenfield: No, actually the opposite. Um, she. She, I don't know whether she said anything. I think I told the teachers quite early on because I thought, you know what, I'm proud of it.

And, and, um, if they've got any judgment, well, you know, that's, that's on them. But I remember I was in the, um, just in the car park and I was chatting to one of the other mums really like in the early days. And, uh, and I said, Oh, I think Ava was about two at the time, maybe just turning three. And I said to her, Oh, um, you know, I'm really tired.

I'm still breastfeeding Ava. And she said, Oh, I'm still breastfeeding. breastfeeding my child. And I said, really? And she said, yeah. I said, Oh my God, I'm so glad I started talking to you. And from there we had a real connection because we both knew how we, we felt and you know, the stage that they were at and sometimes you'll say, Oh, is Ava feeding a lot?

Because, because my son is as well. And I say, yeah, I think maybe they're going through a, through a growth spurt. And it's just so nice to have that, you know, um, that person to talk to because all of my other. Friends who are mums had stopped breastfeeding, so I really didn't, I felt quite alone. 

[00:07:01] Emma Pickett: Oh, that's so, I'm so glad you had that.

That's really special and, and, and it only happened because you said something and, and took that. Yeah. You know, you're obviously confident and feeling great about your decision, which is so valuable, but not everyone would be brave enough to say something. I think maybe we need to have some sort of secret sign.

Some sort of secret handshake or something, so you know in the playground, you know, you're starting preschool, you're starting reception, you know, you scratch your nose in a particular way, you know someone's breastfeeding a four year old or a five year old. I think we need to come up with this. We can trademark it, Jessica.

We'll make it decide what it's going to be called. 

[00:07:33] Jessica Greenfield: I think that's an excellent idea, or a badge, some kind of like, little symbol or something. Yeah, a little 

[00:07:38] Emma Pickett: badge, so somebody knows that you're still breastfeeding and they can start up a conversation with you, and you know that you're going to find an ally.

Okay, we're on it, come on, we'll sit down, we'll have a brainstorming session, it's going to happen. Um, so, and you don't have it, obviously from what you're saying, you're just at the moment, this works for you, going with the flow, you don't have any goals particularly, you're letting her take the lead. 

[00:07:59] Jessica Greenfield: Yeah, I mean, I suppose I kind of feel like maybe when she starts primary school, you know, but is that based on judgment and You know society's kind of views on it.

I don't know I mean, I kind of feel like she'll stop when she's ready But then there is a part of my brain that says well When is that because I don't want to keep doing it till she's 10 because I feel like that's maybe a bit 

[00:08:23] Emma Pickett: far for me It's interesting you two talk about Primary school was, you know, being the thing like you've created this kind of time in your head when Society doesn't normally recognize breastfeeding, but I promise you there are so many kids starting reception And obviously it sounds like she's older for her year I mean, there are lots of kids who who just turn four and then start reception.

Um, and you know this Would already be in reception. So if you imagine her being in reception today That's you know, not breastfeeding. Yes. What's that going to do with it? Really the fact she's in a particular school environment Um But you'll decide what's right for you, I'm sure. And it sounds as though you've got the support of your husband and you haven't got any pressure from anyone telling you you should be changing things.

[00:09:04] Jessica Greenfield: I occasionally get a comment from my parents, or particularly my mum, occasionally. Um, you know, like, oh, she's still, oh, she's still breastfeeding, is she? Like, oh, she's still wanting to do it. You know, or sometimes we'll be on, on, um. FaceTime. And she often wants to, she often wants to breastfeed when I'm chatting to my parents.

It's quite interesting. And they'll say, Oh, you don't need to do that now. Stuff like that. And, um, and I remember once my mum said to me, Oh, I was chatting to a friend of mine and I said, Oh, um, Jessica's still breastfeeding Ava. And I just said, Oh, my friend said, why? And I thought, ridiculous thing to say, like, what business is it of hers to have any kind of judgment on my breastfeeding journey?

And also do some research, like, look at the benefits of it rather than the negative, your negative views on it. And I found it so rude. 

[00:10:07] Emma Pickett: That is interesting, isn't it? Why? Why is an interesting question? Because on one level, actually, It's kind of better than, uh, I mean, why, why is at least saying, I don't understand it.

Tell me, tell me what, although it may be, that's not so how she meant it. Um, but 

[00:10:23] Jessica Greenfield: yeah, I haven't had any but you know, maybe people 

[00:10:28] Emma Pickett: are scared to say, uh, yeah, to me, it would be a bit scary to say, uh, to, I think in the absolute best way you don't sound like a woman who takes nonsense. So, and that is fantastic for Ava and for you.

Um, let's talk about travel. So you are a singer. I'm not going to get you to sing, although obviously it'd be lovely if you did. Tell us about your singing career pre AVA and what your work is like generally. Okay, 

[00:10:56] Jessica Greenfield: um, so pre AVA I was, I I was doing a lot of kind of corporate gigs and I was at home pretty much every night because I'd do a gig and then I'd come home.

Um, and I had a very kind of relaxed kind of daytime life. I'd get back really late at night and then I'd spend the day just chilling out. Um, so when I had Ava, it was a huge shock. It was a huge shock for many reasons for my identity being one. Then after I did my kind of function gig, corporate, uh, gig kind of stage.

I was lucky enough to get offered to tour with Noel Gallagher from Oasis. So I toured with him for seven years. And that meant I was going away. I got that gig in 2017. So I had quite a big chunk of this kind of nice, easy, touring lifestyle. You say, you sound like 

[00:11:56] Emma Pickett: easy, easy, touring lifestyle doesn't sound easy to me.

But you mean without a baby it was easier? Yeah, without a baby. Okay, so just to set the scene then, you're on the stage. behind a microphone in Stockholm slash Berlin slash wherever doing a little bit of swaying and do they call it session singing? Backing up backup singer? What do you call it? 

[00:12:17] Jessica Greenfield: Well, kind of, I play a bit of piano and I, you know, it's not like traditional ooze and arse.

[00:12:22] Emma Pickett: I would never say ooze and arse, but okay. 

[00:12:25] Jessica Greenfield: But yeah, so I Um, it was, it's a tiring lifestyle, there's no question, but I didn't have that extra responsibility of having to worry about her and all the logistics of it and, you know, thinking, Oh my God, how am I going to have to leave her for even two nights?

Even one night was stressful for me. Um, so yeah, it was easy in that respect. Um, and, 

[00:12:51] Emma Pickett: um, And you got pregnant at the end of that phase? Or were you actually working when you got pregnant? 

[00:12:56] Jessica Greenfield: Michael. I, so I got pregnant, um, um, in, uh, 2020, wait, yes, in 2020, just before COVID started. Okay. So there was this gap and in my mind I thought, well, there's going to be a bit of touring.

I don't know when it's going to be, but I'll have a bit of time and I'll just have to cross that bridge. But I was definitely, um, a very maternal person growing up and I kind of felt like, Oh, you know, I'd love to be a mum, but then as I continued with this musical journey, I thought, Oh God, you know, I don't want to, you know, I've got, I've got more stuff to do before I become a mum.

So I started to put, put it on the back burner a bit and thought, it's not right. It's not right. And then, then I got pregnant. Then COVID happened. So there was this huge. Chunk. And she was born during the second lockdown. And I, um, I don't know how deep you want me to go in this conversation. There's 

[00:13:57] Emma Pickett: no, no such thing as too deep.

You just shush. Go for it. Okay. 

[00:14:02] Jessica Greenfield: Um, and I had her in November and I had, during my pregnancy, I got pretty anxious. I had kind of very weird thoughts and I just felt kind of like I was starting to get problems with my mental health. Um, and I, Obviously because of lockdown, I couldn't see anybody and there was no support.

So when she was born, I went into this kind of spiral of being incredibly anxious and being depressed. I'm so sorry to hear that. Yeah, it was very, very hard. Was that 

[00:14:38] Emma Pickett: connected to the pandemic and health anxiety or not, not, not necessarily? What were you focusing on? I 

[00:14:43] Jessica Greenfield: think, I think they were going hand in hand.

I think there was a combination of the lack of support and not being able to see anybody. And then the changes in my. Life and my identity and there was no work and there was nothing to look forward to and then I was kind of thinking well What's the point in music anyway, like these kind of weird thoughts and you know and I had this real thing where I felt like I had to do everything perfectly and Somebody had bought me this book called the baby whisperer.

[00:15:19] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Do you know it? I know it very well. So in fact, weirdly enough, I started my life of breastfeeding support writing on the message boards of the baby whisperer forum. So this is pre Facebook, really early days of social media. 20 years ago, the baby whisperer book had these, these forums and I became a moderator on the breastfeeding group.

That's the very first thing I did in the world of breastfeeding support. So not because I thought the book was amazing. But because I'd read the book and I could see the risks in follow, in following the book and the risks that it would mean to breastfeeding journeys. Having said, just to say that the baby whisperer, the original baby whisperer called Tracy Hogg died a long time ago.

So the breastfeeding, the baby whisperer brand. isn't necessarily one thing. It's like a history of lots of different books, and it's, it has snaked and changed and varied, and I'll be honest, I haven't read the new books. They may well be very different, but certainly the historical ones had lots of things about breastfeeding that I would Say we're incorrect and jeopardized breastfeeding not least that message that you shouldn't feed a baby to sleep Which is absolutely not science based babies are designed to be fed to sleep But if you're already in that zone of I need to get things perfect the baby whisperer is such a huge pressure and I think a real risk to mental health because If your baby falls asleep on the breast you failed I mean, they literally talk about, you know, accidental parenting and, and not letting a baby fall asleep.

And you've created this horrible situation if a baby falls asleep, breastfeeding, which is absolutely not based on science. So I'm guessing you're not in a great place then if you've picked up the baby whisper and you're already telling me your mental health was a bit of a problem. 

[00:17:02] Jessica Greenfield: It really spiraled and I, it affected my marriage and I was kind of, you know, she'd fall asleep at.

Twenty five past two and I'd say she's fallen asleep at the wrong time, you know, and I think I've always been the kind of person that likes to follow something and that was not the thing to follow. 

[00:17:21] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I'm so sorry. I mean, Amy Brown, Professor Amy Brown did some really interesting research around the following of the books and the impact on mental health.

of the following of the books. And it might be, obviously, people who've already got other vulnerabilities, those are triggered by these books. But, um, we have to be so careful about anything that tells us babies all behave a certain way. Babies all follow this pattern. And if your baby doesn't follow this pattern, it's because you're not doing something right, and you're doing, you're not following the rules properly, and you haven't found the right chapter.

I mean, that's what I was seeing on the forums, even 20 years ago, people feeling horribly guilty. because their baby wasn't getting to three hours or four hours. And that's actually the inspiration for writing my article on the, about the infant feeding interval obsession. It was really, it was the baby whisperer and watching people trying to follow the baby whisperer that led to me writing that book.

As I said, not saying that's necessarily today's book or even today's community, but that was what was happening in the early days, the baby whisperer. So you were trying to follow this routine that kind of pretends it's not a routine. It's a really interesting message that, Oh no, you're following your baby.

But then actually you're not really because you're, you're controlling them. So you were trying to get her not to fall asleep on the breast. You were doing your activity time. Then you were trying to get her to sleep without being on the breast. Then she was getting hungry and not sleeping for as long.

Cause you, you know, not tried to feed her. So going down a dangerous route. 

[00:18:45] Jessica Greenfield: So dangerous. Yeah. Oh my 

[00:18:47] Emma Pickett: God. You mentioned stress on your marriage. I'm so sorry to hear that. That was just because you were spiraling and, and lashing out and struggling and, and he was struggling to understand you, presumably. 

[00:18:56] Jessica Greenfield: Yes.

And I think he felt he's also a musician at this point. He didn't have any career because there wasn't one. And I think he felt, um, very alienated because I was exclusively breastfeeding her. We weren't doing any bottle feeds. Um, and I think he just felt. Kind of very, yeah, alienated and yeah, and just like a cook and a cleaner and didn't feel like he had that bond with Ava.

And, um, yeah, and I just remember kind of sitting either side of the living room, just not communicating with each other. And it was so hard. It was just so hard. And my anxiety was just through the roof and he didn't know how to calm me down. And then he would get grumpy and then I'd It was just awful.

[00:19:44] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I'm so sorry. I mean, things, things about, you know, books like that, you're, you're failing all day long. I mean, literally failing from the minute you wake up, that you set all these mini goals for yourself. And when your baby does the outrageous thing of responding to their natural hormones during breastfeeding and falling asleep because of oxytocin, that's a failure.

When your baby wants a second feed, which is supernatural, you know, 40 minutes later, that's a failure. When you can't get them to sleep quickly enough, that's it. You're just, you're just failing all day long. And that just is so undermining for your, for your mental health. And, and you're not trusting your baby either because your baby's signals aren't to be believed.

They don't know the rules. So what they do is not to be believed. How did you kind of come out of that? hell. I mean, what was the, I mean, I'm guessing you're obviously not doing that right now. So at some point you came out of it. Did you have an epiphany when you thought, nope, this isn't working? Do you remember the sort of end stages of that?

[00:20:37] Jessica Greenfield: I might have. First of all, I just want to say, um, Emma, that the way you've talked about that is the first time I've ever heard anyone really like, really, that I feel really understood and By what I went through because you, you know, you get it, you get what it's like reading that book and the whole breastfeeding journey and I, I haven't had that.

So thank you. Sorry. That's really made me, 

[00:21:01] Emma Pickett: you know, really, I absolutely get it. I've seen other people being affected by books like this. I know what damage it can do. I'm so sorry. That was your experience. 

[00:21:09] Jessica Greenfield: Yeah. Um, but yeah, coming out of it, I think, I think I can't really remember. It might've been, I started having therapy.

Um, and I realized that I'd kind of put this, um, very limiting and almost kind of dangerous sort of belief on myself, which was that Ava was only really safe. in my care. So I was worried about her going to be going to, um, my mother in law's house, for example, because she wouldn't know how to look after in the way that I am because I know how to do it best.

And, you know, so it was just so anxiety field. So I think the, the shift was when she took her for, for a day or a few hours or something. And I thought, Oh, hold on a minute. I've got a bit of time. Cause I hadn't had any time, um, and having the therapy. And then I think I might've been on Instagram. And, um, I followed somebody called Dr.

Shefali and then somebody, you know, Gabor Maté. And they were talking about, um, early child development and the opposite of what the baby whisperer was talking about. And I also, um, decided to, uh, to kind of retrain, um, and do, um, coaching in baby massage and how to coach parents in baby massage. So I was learning about.

babies and, you know, the importance of touch and about holding them and being there with them. Again, going against the baby whisperer kind of belief. So all this stuff, I started to think, well, hold on a minute. This is, this is just natural. This is natural human behavior. And, you know, um, and why am I scared to sleep with my child?

And why am I, you know, why am I scared of her falling asleep on my breast? This is ridiculous. And so it started to change from then on. And I think I. Gave the baby whisperer away or put it in the bin. 

[00:23:19] Emma Pickett: Yeah, okay. I'm so glad that you got to that place, but I'm really sorry that you had I'm not to say that your mental health was all about that book.

Obviously there were other factors happening as well. Yeah, it was a catalyst. 

[00:23:29] Jessica Greenfield: Yeah, it was like a big storm of a lot of things. But yeah, that was feeding. a very unhelpful narrative. 

[00:23:36] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Um, so it's interesting. You just said before, you know, you didn't trust someone else to look after her and then we're suddenly going to get to you doing work trips and, and leaving her for extended periods.

So that really shows how someone that begins in that place can get to a place of feeling comfortable leaving their child and being able to continue with work. A little advert just to say that you can buy my four books online. You've Got It In You, a positive guide to breastfeeding, is 99p as an e book, and that's aimed at expectant and new parents.

The Breast Book, published by Pinter and Martin, is a guide for 9 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months. and supporting the transition from breastfeeding. For a 10 percent discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley Press, that's uk.

jkp. com and use the code mmpe10. Makes milk. Pick it, Emma. 10. Thanks. So lockdowns end, people start having music careers again and, and when did you start thinking, okay, I'm going to need to get back to singing now? You talked about losing your identity. Was that part of it? Obviously, there's a financial consideration, but was there also, I'm ready to do this again?

[00:24:59] Jessica Greenfield: Um, there was, I had this kind of Backwards and forwards thing in my head, which was, Oh yeah, I feel like I feel like I'm ready to do it. And then I really don't want to do it. I don't feel like a singer anymore. I don't, can I perform again? I don't know. I've been through all this stuff. Um, you know, it was just, it was very, very weird.

And I had, I was forced into it basically because some gigs came in and it was just around the time where they were sort of, you could go to gigs or you could do certain things, but you have to be tested. So, I think it was about six months, and these rehearsals came in and I was absolutely dreading it.

Because I didn't know what it was going to be like, obviously I was still breastfeeding. Well how do I even think about pumping? How much do I pump? What do I do with the milk? You know, all these kind of things I hadn't had to consider. Because it was just, we were at home in this nice, well it wasn't necessarily nice but, this kind of bubble of safety.

So, um, Basically what happened was I went to rehearse in London and my husband came down and he's just amazing. I mean, I couldn't have done any of this without him, I've got to say. But he came down for, um, I think, was it five days? And Ava was about six months old. And he stayed close by. We had a friend that, um, owned a studio very near the rehearsal room.

So he let my husband and Ava. set up a little play place where they could hang out during the day. And then, um, in the night, we could go back to, uh, you know, uh, apartment and stay there so I could be with her in the evening. And we did that for that week. Um, and then she came to the gig. Or she came to the, it was in the afternoon, so she came to this thing.

[00:26:45] Emma Pickett: I'm imagining with the little cute headphones on. Baby, baby cute concert headphones. Very, very cute. Very cute photo. So, so you did get pumping. She did have bottles at this point. How did that go? 

[00:26:56] Jessica Greenfield: I don't know. I don't, I can't remember actually whether. She took, I don't think she took much of it and I think it was probably, um, maybe I came out and we'd have breaks because she was nearby.

I could have, we could do a bit of that. I don't think there was, maybe there were like a couple of nights where she'd have a bit of bottle, but she was not fussed. She did not. Enjoy it. 

[00:27:19] Emma Pickett: So she hung on. I can't really remember. When she was with you, yeah. Yes, basically, yeah. And you don't, you don't remember kind of having to step away from the mic and pump or were you, were you using wearable pumps?

What was happening with your breast health? Yeah, 

[00:27:31] Jessica Greenfield: no, I, yeah, I do remember, um, I would pump, um, before I'd go on stage because it was just getting, they were just getting like rocks, I remember. Um, I would do it kind of just for, My feeling comfortable, um, and, and I was kind of storing it, but it, it was touch and go whether she'd actually have any of it, to be honest.

Yeah. So I was kind of, she, I, she was at an age where she was starting to have solid food as well. So, um, I think I would have been a lot more stressed had she been a teeny tiny baby. Um, yeah, so it was kind of a combination of, I pumped just to feel comfortable. And then having to navigate the, the fact that I wasn't going to be there.

And that was. Horrible for me. Absolutely horrible. Um, and being at an age where she, you know, she doesn't understand where's mummy going? Is she coming back? You know? And I remember reading something about, um, you probably know more about this than me, but if you leave a child for more than two weeks, they, at a certain age, they kind of think, well, they don't understand if you're ever going to come back or not.

[00:28:44] Emma Pickett: Yeah, it's so difficult, isn't it? Because we don't really know what's going on inside their little heads and it's but certainly they don't have a sense of timeframe. So, you know, where you've gone, even after four hours, wherever you've gone, um, four days, you know, four weeks, it's, it's really hard, isn't it?

To know what they're going through. But you had that, obviously, that foundation with her. And crucially, she was with your partner, which is must feel different to know that they're together, rather than being somebody she doesn't know. 

[00:29:13] Jessica Greenfield: Oh, that was, I couldn't have done any of this or I wouldn't have, okay, I could have done it.

But I think our bond and our bond as a family would be very, very different. Um, I feel like her trust would be very different. And I am eternally grateful to him for what he's done and the sacrifices that he's made to, um, parent her in the way that he has. And yeah, he's just been, he's been absolutely amazing and I'm really grateful to him.

[00:29:46] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah, I can see that's, that's really special. And obviously he had the kind of job where, you know, he wasn't working every day. He could come and be with you and be in there. We're very lucky. Yeah. That's so, so that particular time you were working, but only leaving her for short periods of time rather than necessarily a big block of time.

When was the first time that you were away from her? Let's say a whole night overnight. 

[00:30:06] Jessica Greenfield: Oh, I would say, um, probably when she was about one, maybe just before she turned one. 

[00:30:16] Emma Pickett: Okay. How did that feel? Tell us what happened. 

[00:30:19] Jessica Greenfield: I, in some ways, felt amazing because I felt like myself again. Even if it was for like five hours, I just thought, Oh my God, I can, I can have a bath.

I can go, I can sleep for a whole night, a whole night. Um, uh, but I also felt guilty and I was obviously worried. Um, and I do remember my husband saying it was like she was coming off crack. 

[00:30:48] Emma Pickett: Oh, you mean they were having a tough time, the two of them? Yeah, she just, she just missed you. The breastfeeding.

Yeah. Well, you say breastfeeding, but we don't know if it was breastfeeding or you. I mean, that's why I think that's really important to highlight. Some people think, you know, oh, you know, it's because you're breastfeeding them. This is why my life's so difficult when you're not here. But actually, even if you weren't breastfeeding.

And if you were the primary parent at night time, she could have just been really sad and discombobulated and missing, missing that connection with you. 

[00:31:16] Jessica Greenfield: Of course, yeah. Really hard. Really hard. And I think he really did go through a lot to try and manage those emotions that she was going through. And, you know, now I think he knows a lot more about, uh, it's a separate thing, but, um, he's done kind of.

He's still singing, but he's done a bit of retraining in parenting and wants to help other parents. But, so he knows a lot more now than he did then and I think, you know, he did the best that he could, but she was really dealing with a lot. You know, it's, she went through us being around a lot to then these chunks of, you know, me not being around.

And she's, you know, she's got really very kind of, she's, she's strong. You know, she's, she very much, she's a very emotional child. And, um, I, I just hope that. You know, I, I think we did the best we could, but I hope that we haven't scarred her in any way in those early years. Do 

[00:32:14] Emma Pickett: you, I mean, you describe her coming home from preschool, having some baby, running off and being a bit independent.

You describe having a lovely relationship with both of you. Yeah, she does. Do you think that she is scarred? Do you really think that's a possibility?

[00:32:33] Jessica Greenfield: Maybe on some deep level. I mean, it's not obvious, obvious. But, you know, sometimes she doesn't want to spend any time with me. Sometimes she will say, I don't, don't, um, I don't want you to play with me mummy. I don't want, you know, maybe that's something else. Maybe it's another reason. She's very, very daddy orientated.

Very much so. And I wonder whether that's, there is a slight I wouldn't, I don't know if it's mistrust or a slight, I don't know, just something. Um, yeah, I don't know. 

[00:33:04] Emma Pickett: It's not my job to dismiss that feeling if that's what you feel, but I'm really tempted to say you, everybody whose parents are four year old has a four year old that says, just bugger off mommy.

I'll probably, I'll get someone to beep that word out. I just want to. just do this by myself for a bit, because that's how they explore independence. That's how they explore the world of independence. And, and you get two year olds that say, no, mommy, it's daddy's bedtime tonight, not your bedtime. Because these are parents who've never gone anywhere.

They haven't even gone out for a whole day. I mean, but, but the agency that a little child feels when they reject a parent is so empowering and feels so great that they'll often explore that feeling of, you know, go away, daddy, or go away, mommy. I think you are hardwired to be a thoughtful, caring mum, and I think you are inevitably going to look back on your travel and, and worry that it has an impact.

But I'm pretty sure if you did no travel at all, you'd have had something else to worry about. Well, true. Because we find something, um, and You know, I mean, obviously we're doing an episode about work trips and I don't want necessarily the final takeaway being, and Jessica scarred her child. End of episode.

Because I don't, from what you're saying, it sounds like you've got a great relationship with her and it sounds like she's a really emotionally healthy, happy little person. So I'm going to question that narrative. But I'm also going to say that I think it's so natural to have that worry. And I think if anyone goes away from their child and doesn't have that worry, maybe they're kind of kidding themselves a bit because I think as parents we are always going to worry about that.

And so, so acknowledging that and embracing that and listening to that worry I think is really healthy and really important. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you went away for one night on that occasion, and then when was the first time that you had to go away for a more extended trip? 

[00:34:54] Jessica Greenfield: Do you know, I can't remember, but I feel like it might have been, I had to do, um, we'd started touring by this point.

So my husband could come along to certain bits, maybe in the UK, and then there may be like three nights. And then that changed to like five nights somewhere. So we'd ever so slightly. Push it to another night. Um, but always conscious of, you know, if there's a, if there's a chunk and it says three weeks.

Well, we, we can't, I cannot be away from her for more than two weeks, like that for us, that was a long time. Okay, 

[00:35:29] Emma Pickett: so you had this kind of cut off in your head of two weeks, you decided that they'd have to come and meet you somewhere if it was going to be that long, you didn't want longer than that. 

[00:35:36] Jessica Greenfield: Yeah, and the reason, and to be honest, and even then, the only reason that I had to be away from her for that long was because I was just too far away.

So You know, logistically and practically to, for them to fly all the way to Japan or whatever it was, it was just ridiculous, you know. 

[00:35:55] Emma Pickett: If they were going to come and meet you, I mean, just, just out of curiosity, was that something that your employer would have covered or was this all at personal costs if they were coming to meet you?

[00:36:03] Jessica Greenfield: All personal costs. And I really do think that the music industry is, needs to do some I don't know, it needs to look at itself and there needs to be some big changes because it is not geared up for mothers, for young, for mothers with young children. I am constantly, um, around women, amazing women, incredibly talented women who are having to go and leave their children for six months, three months, one month.

These, you know, and they have to do it because they, you know, it's an amazing opportunity. The money's amazing, whatever. There is an impact, 

[00:36:45] Emma Pickett: you know. And not everyone can afford the entourage of nannies and childcarers and, you know. 

[00:36:50] Jessica Greenfield: You can only do it if you're a massively successful artist that is earning a fortune.

Now I do, there are people that I know. whose employers have supported them, but it's quite rare, I would say. Um, but it's not, it's not easy. It's not easy. There needs to be more support. 

[00:37:06] Emma Pickett: Okay. Yeah, no, I hear that. Thank you for sharing that. So let's, so let's imagine a kind of two week gap. Let's say we will, that's a two week gap.

Let's say Ava is. two years old, or 18 months, let's say. She's still breastfeeding. Obviously, she's eating other foods, so you don't have to necessarily worry about her nutritional intake. When you knew you were going to be going away, how did you talk to her about it? What did you say to her? 

[00:37:30] Jessica Greenfield: Gosh, it was so long ago, but I feel like we probably did.

We probably looked at maps and looked at the places where I was going and then maybe I drew pictures of Mummy going on a plane and maybe we did some role play. So Mummy, you can be, you know, um, you can be the Mummy and I'll be the baby. We did quite a lot of this. So she'd say, I'm going to go away now.

And I'd say, oh, Mummy, I'm really going to miss you. These kind of games. So it was. She could see that, that, you know, I was feeling the feeling and it was okay to feel that way. And, and then my husband would, would play, do a lot of that kind of role play games. We played with teddies and because she'd had like one or two nights, she obviously knew what it felt like to be away from me for a bit.

But I think my husband would say that quite often the first. First two nights were really hard. Then she would kind of get in the flow, but he'd say, you know, it'd be a little trigger. And she would feel really emotional over a very small thing because it was mummy, you know, underneath it was, I want mummy.

Um, but yeah, a lot of, a lot of, um, role play and talking about it. And, um, and also because she'd come to my. My gigs and she'd met the people that I was working with. She, she kind of got to know them and I think because she knew what I was doing, she could understand it a little bit. It wasn't like, where's mummy gone?

Yeah, 

[00:38:59] Emma Pickett: I think that's super helpful. I think one thing I often say to, to parents in this situation is, you know, literally show photographs of colleagues. You know, just make little videos of, you know, this is the person I'm going to be talking to, and, and when you, you know, when you get on the airplane, here's a little video of me on the airplane, this is my hotel room, this is the meeting room where I'm going to be, just trying to contextualize it as much as possible.

Otherwise, it's this sort of, you've gone into this void, and what does that even mean? And, and are people safe in the void? Do they ever come back? And, and are you, Choosing to go there because you want to be there instead of being with me. So I think I love what you're saying about how she could see that you were sad as well.

I think that is so important. Parents sometimes say, well, I don't want to show I'm emotionally vulnerable because that's going to leave them feeling wobblier. But actually, why can't you say, and I'm really sad I have to go. I don't kind of. don't necessarily want to go. I mean, obviously it's a mixed feeling you kind of do on one level, but to say I'm really going to miss you and I'm sad I've got to go and I'm really looking forward to coming back and seeing you and I'm really excited to seeing you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Talking about all that stuff too. And then when you're away from her, I'm guessing because you're working quite a lot in the evenings, you can't do the bedtime FaceTime necessarily. When would you communicate with her when you're away? 

[00:40:11] Jessica Greenfield: Well, I could sometimes because sometimes we wouldn't be on until a bit later or if it was a change in time zone I could do that.

But the problem was whenever I tried to do that, she would find it too much She would just not want to see me. She'd cry and it was really painful So I think we decided to to stop doing that. Maybe I just send pictures 

[00:40:32] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I'm so glad you talked about that because that's a conversation I'm having quite a lot with, um, with mums in this situation as well.

A little FaceTime call often does not go brilliantly well because, again, it's that feeling of agency. They're a bit cross with you at the same time as really wanting to see you. Yeah. And when they're a bit cross with you, we start to get dysregulated and feel a bit freaked out and then they feel that we're freaked out and then, you know, and then the other adult is like, hang on, we were just fine.

And now you freak them out. So it's really difficult to get that vibe right. I mean, there are some little people who are, you know, they're always facetiming, facetiming relatives, it's part of their world, they're really confident doing it. But I think for a lot of people under three, it's, It's often not going to go well.

So I quite often talk to parents about making videos and sending pictures and making little videos that can be watched at any time. Um, and, and making videos of you reading bedtime stories or telling bedtime stories or talking about your day. And then, and then whoever's looking after them can choose to show that at any particular time.

And you can, you know, exchange little videos like you're exchanging little voicemails. Um, that, that can be a good way of doing things. 

[00:41:39] Jessica Greenfield: Yeah, we started doing that now actually, she's a lot more kind of excited about making a video and sending it to my husband if he's away or, you know, she, she's much better on, on FaceTime now.

She's kind of understood it a bit more. And, uh, yeah, she's just that much more mature, but I would say, but yeah, before four, she just couldn't cope with it at all. 

[00:42:01] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And then when you, um, come back and you don't have to go back to the office the next morning, you've presumably got time with her. How was that kind of reconnection?

Did you ever find that she didn't want to breastfeed when you came back? What was, what was happening with your Oh, immediate 

[00:42:18] Jessica Greenfield: breastfeeding. Okay. Immediately, like, she's not, doesn't even want to say hi, just like, sit on the sofa.

And then it'd be breastfeeding, breastfeeding, breastfeeding, breastfeeding, play, play, play, play, play, play, play, breastfeeding, literally just like, mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, mommy, for 

[00:42:36] Emma Pickett: ages, for ages. So breastfeeding is that reconnection tool for her. And this is a nice little demonstration of how, oh yeah, absolutely for you as well, but how that myth that you wean by going away.

I mean where this myth came from it is just so unhelpful to so many parents because if you go away for a week they will leap on you to breastfeed. I mean you've just demonstrated two weeks they're still going to leap on you to breastfeed. The idea that that's a way to wean is really not very helpful because imagine if you walked in the door and you'd said to her, oh no Ava we don't do that anymore.

I mean how crushing that would have been in that moment. 

[00:43:13] Jessica Greenfield: Awful, awful, awful. No absolutely not. Um And, uh, yeah, she, she was just immediately, immediately wanting to do it. And, but yeah, she, she would just wanna just do it straight away and, and play and just be in mummy world. 

[00:43:31] Emma Pickett: So there was never any feeling of rejection or she was angry with you when you came back.

You never had any moments where it was difficult to kind of reconnect with her. 

[00:43:40] Jessica Greenfield: I think if, if those moments came, it would be after she'd had the breastfeeding connection. And then she, then sometimes she could, there would be that thing where she doesn't want to, she wants to play with daddy. She wants to be with daddy.

Or she'd just sometimes shut me out a little bit, but the breastfeeding always remained. And I, and I feel like as well, because I'd been on the go so much for me breastfeeding and still is, it's, it's this time where we, I can just sit down and I don't have to, think about stuff because I'm quite sort of like busy in my brain and it just Makes me sit, just sit and be and nothing else allows me to do that.

And so I kind of feel like I don't wanna stop doing it for that reason as well. . 

[00:44:28] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So it helped both of you, helped both of you kind of reconnect and it did get back into that zone. It did. And when you were away, tell me a bit more about breast health stuff. So you've talked about being a bit of pumping here and there.

Yeah. Um, at that time when you were just beginning to go away, when she was kind of one-ish mm-hmm . Did you have to always pump when you were. I mean, if you went away today, for example, would you need to be pumping every day? 

[00:44:53] Jessica Greenfield: No. So it was quite amazing. Started kind of learning about my body that, um, I remember the first there was a.

I had to go away for a few days and so she must have been feeding quite a lot because the first night I remember they were quite sore. So I pumped then and I think I was even like leaking and I was really shocked. And then as I started going away more, I was able to leave it maybe two days. Probably now I could leave it two days before pumping.

Um, maybe because she's not actually, I don't even know how much milk she has. But yeah, I probably would pump every two days. Um, and, uh, just for them to feel okay. Um, but even sometimes during the day, I'll get like a feeling. Um, like a tingly feeling. Like 

[00:45:45] Emma Pickett: the let down reflex or milk ejection reflex. Yeah.

Yeah. So it sounds as though you got a sense of how your body worked. And you didn't have to necessarily be strict about it. You could just feel when it was sensible. Yeah. And you never had any mastitis or any? Thankfully not. No. Okay. 

[00:46:02] Jessica Greenfield: I'd get kind of big, you know, kind of, they'd feel kind of lumpy and really solid, uncomfortable.

Um, but yeah, I, I'm so grateful for, for, for the pumps though, because I know some people express it by hand. Um, and, and I do remember there have been a couple of occasions where like the wire would, I lost a wire or the wire wouldn't fit in properly or some part of it broke or something. And I just. I'd be so anxious about it.

What am I going to do? What am I going to do? 

[00:46:32] Emma Pickett: In Japan, going to the pharmacy at 2am or whatever you like. I've got visions of you living a glamorous, lost in translation lifestyle. Walking to the Japanese pharmacy to find a Japanese breast pump. Just allow me to live my fantasy. Um, so you are describing a really real story of sort of evolution, how, you know, you've basically, as your breastfeeding journey changed, your need to look after your breasts changed and, and we can't say to anybody, you've got to pump this many times.

You'll have to pump it twice a day. I 

[00:47:00] Jessica Greenfield: think it just varies 

[00:47:01] Emma Pickett: from person to person. It's going to be so individual, isn't it? But you need. And 

[00:47:04] Jessica Greenfield: also how much the child is feeding. I mean, I don't know if that's true, but. No, for sure, because it's going to 

[00:47:08] Emma Pickett: depend on volume and on your storage capacity and you know, all sorts of different factors.

So we can't make hard and fast rules, but you need to give yourself options because you might need to pump when you're not expecting to. So even just because you're breastfeeding a three year old, you wouldn't assume, Oh, I don't need to pump. I'll be fine. Um, you might get caught short. So being prepared for different things.

[00:47:30] Jessica Greenfield: Yeah, always have something, yeah. 

[00:47:32] Emma Pickett: And then when you were away, and your, your partner was looking after her, was it always your husband, or was there ever a time when he was having to travel at the same time as you? 

[00:47:41] Jessica Greenfield: Yeah, so, there was a period of time, this was about a year and a half, maybe two years ago, no, maybe a year ago, I I went away for two weeks.

My husband went away for two weeks and because I was in Japan, my mum, my husband was in Ireland doing a job. My mum came, went all the way to Ireland with my husband and stayed in a hotel room with my, it was like one of those kind of split hotel rooms where you can have like a So my mum looked after my daughter whilst my husband was working in Ireland and I was away in Japan.

And my husband and my mum had to live together for two weeks. I love how you're laughing. Because, oh dear, yeah, because, um, it's quite, I mean they get on, but it's quite a, I wouldn't say challenging relationship. But they're definitely, you know, they're not chalk and cheese, but they don't have like, A wonderful, you know, like very easygoing, you know, I mean, you know, also looking after a three year old at the time.

[00:48:52] Emma Pickett: Yeah, and away from home, in a hotel. Away from home! With toys that you can bring on an aeroplane. I mean, it's not easy peasy. And presumably your, your partner's also a musician, so he's not coming back at seven o'clock at night. He's coming back at, you know, eleven o'clock at night, twelve o'clock at night, and she's having to Well, 

[00:49:07] Jessica Greenfield: it wasn't as late as that.

Thankfully, he was doing this kind of show, so it was like quite regimented hours. But my mum, you know, she'd do, she'd do bedtime and, um, you know, she'd sleep with Ava and, you know, she was great like that. She really, really was. And, um, you know, that's what we had to do to make it work. But I think even in that period of time where I was away, she, I hope that she felt loved and I hope that she felt, you know, safe, you know, being in this kind of strange hotel room.

But, you know, she was with my mum and my mum's great with her and, um, yeah. So that was what we had to do then 

[00:49:43] Emma Pickett: you have to be imaginative and flexible You do and and then during the travels was anyone saying to you You know what if you didn't breastfeed this would be so much easier if you do Oh, yes, you didn't breastfeed.

She'd be more settled or nights would be easier. Were you getting that messaging? 

[00:49:59] Jessica Greenfield: I have had that Yeah, I've had that from from yeah quite a few people and I just sort of think Whatever. Yeah. Okay. And you know, I would be lying if there wasn't a part of me that said, Oh, maybe they're right. You know, I don't want to listen to it because it wouldn't be easier.

There'd be a whole other set of challenges that I'd have to deal with. 

[00:50:20] Emma Pickett: And, 

[00:50:21] Jessica Greenfield: um, yeah, I don't know. 

[00:50:24] Emma Pickett: You'd miss out on that reconnection. You've just described how special that reconnection and coming back to breastfeeding is how important it is to have that, that ability to reconnect through breastfeeding.

You'd have to have a really good reason to want to take that away. 

[00:50:38] Jessica Greenfield: Yeah. Yeah, I feel, I feel like that was the clue, that. meant that every time I came back, she knew that there was something consistent and I hadn't been consistently there. 

[00:50:50] Emma Pickett: Like, 

[00:50:50] Jessica Greenfield: okay, I've been away, but we're still going to do this together.

And I kind of felt like I, that was like, I didn't owe it to her, but it's like, that's a special thing that we can do, you know. 

[00:51:03] Emma Pickett: And actually Ava's obviously not self weaned through all these different trips and times away. I mean, it's quite clear how much this means to her and if she wanted to self wean, she's had plenty of opportunity to, you know, take the nudges and she really hasn't.

That demonstrates what breastfeeding means to her as well and how, how important that reconnection is for her. So when your husband is having those, those difficult nights, not so much now because Ava's got a bit more of an understanding, but, but those first couple of nights when things were difficult, did he ever talk to you about what he would do when he was with her?

What methods he was using, how he was trying to? 

[00:51:40] Jessica Greenfield: I know it'd be quite interesting to know like exactly what he did. I think there were probably times that were really hard and he probably didn't tell me because he didn't want me to worry. I think he probably just sat with her and said it's okay to feel this way and it's okay to feel sad and let's have a cuddle and I guess just, yeah, just be there with her, be present with her when she's going through that.

[00:52:01] Emma Pickett: And you know enough about his parenting style to know that the validation would have been his natural instinct. Oh yeah, I don't think 

[00:52:07] Jessica Greenfield: there would have been. Stop crying, you know, she's not coming back, you know, and I dread to think, you know, there are kids having to go through that, you know, and I get the parent, parents have to go through, parents have to parent.

In a way that parents parent in a way that they do in the moment for whatever reason, but you know, it's it's it's tough but I yeah, I think that he would have been very showing her a lot of empathy and You know, it would have been painful though really painful 

[00:52:39] Emma Pickett: and there was never a moment from him when he said Yeah, he has said 

[00:52:44] Jessica Greenfield: that to me before He has.

And, you know, I think he knows though that it is really important to us and it's helpful to him sometimes as well because, you know, she, if she comes to me when she's feeling upset. It calms her down and I can sleep with her and he gets a better sleep and there's all kinds of other benefits to it. I think because, you know, that's where he goes when it's a struggle for him.

It's like, it's something to blame, like all the breastfeeding has meant that she's really struggling when you're not here. But, you know, I don't think that's true, necessarily. 

[00:53:25] Emma Pickett: And it sounds as though from what you're saying, he's saying that at the difficult moments, but actually, but he doesn't necessarily believe it the next day.

I mean, it's not like he's been nagging you continuously. Oh, no, no, no, no. It's just a thing he flashes and says sometimes. 

[00:53:40] Jessica Greenfield: Yeah, it's almost like, you know, if you're arguing with your partner and you say something you regret, it's almost like that. You know, you throw something out there because it's like the last resort, always.

You know, um, but no, I, he's never been the kind of partner to say this has got to stop, this is not right or, you know, and I've never really had that, thankfully, never had anyone just ramming it down my throat, breastfeeding is ridiculous or it's, or it's, you know, it's going to damage your child or none of that.

Um, but I see, I see it on social media, people posting stuff, not about me, but about something that they might see. that someone posts and people just saying, Oh, it's disgusting. It's this, I'm just, yeah, it's tough. It's tough. You sort of feel like you're living a, not in shame, but you know, I, I, I, there was a point where maybe up to about two over one, it still wanted to breastfeed in public.

And I would kind of, we do it, but on the sly. Um, but now she, we don't do it in public. She knows. We'll just do it at home. And I hate that. I hate that. I feel that I have to do it in secret almost. 

[00:54:56] Emma Pickett: Yeah, it's not easy. It's not easy living in a world where you are the minority. It's not easy, but, but, you know, people like you and conversations like this will hopefully help to, to change it a little bit, little bit by little bit.

I think things are changing. I think I am seeing more toddlers feeding in public. I think it's in some ways, the positives of social media, as well as the negatives of, of help to make some positive changes. Um, So I'm guessing from what you're saying then, just come back to the logistics, you've never needed to, um, like transport breast milk around because, you know, if you're away for two weeks, you're not coming back with a whopping great load of frozen breast milk.

You were doing it for your breast health, but you were kind of not hanging onto it. So you didn't have to worry about that. Yeah, 

[00:55:36] Jessica Greenfield: exactly. Exactly. I do remember in the early days I did pump and I did store some milk in the freezer and the fridge to, in hope that she would have, have a bottle. Occasionally she might have a bit, but she, as I say, she wasn't fussed.

So I remember that kind of. being a bit stressful, but no, otherwise as she got older, it was just pump and, and sadly have to tip it down the sink because I was too far away. 

[00:56:01] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And you know, exactly. If you're literally moving from city to city, it's not like you can find a milk bank wherever you are.

It's logistically not going to work. So I think no one's going to be cross with you for throwing stuff down the sink on that occasion. No. So if someone's listening to this. And they're thinking, I'm listening to this podcast episode because I've got my work trip, my first work trip next month. I'm going to be away from my 14 month old for a week.

I'm feeling sick about it. What kind of messages would you want them to take away from this? 

[00:56:31] Jessica Greenfield: Well, I think first of all, just to know that it's going to be okay. And you're both going to be okay. And I think it's good to prepare yourself and your child beforehand. And. as I said, um, you know, maybe I know that 14 months, let's say is still quite young, but I think you could still probably do a bit of like, you know, bunny's going to go away.

And, and, and Teddy's feeling really sad about it. And, you know, talk, talk about it like that. And 

[00:57:03] Emma Pickett: how far in advance do you think you would do that? So I'm, I sometimes have this conversation and I, and I kind of say that you've got to be a bit careful not doing it too far in advance. I think sometimes for parents purposes, for themselves, they like to feel like they're doing something.

So they may, you know, you know, weeks before start kicking in those kinds of conversations and mummy's going to America and here's where America is. But actually for a little person who doesn't really have a sense of time frame, I'd probably say you don't really want to do that more than a week or so ahead.

I mean, what do you think? I would say 

[00:57:33] Jessica Greenfield: a week. Personally, I probably would have done it a week before and just a little bit, not even like, so every day for the next, you know, five hours, we're going to talk about how mummy's going away. No, it was just like, we do a little game, then I, then I'd leave it. Then we might draw a little picture, then I'd leave it.

Then, then daddy would do something. And then it was very, very, you know, just dribs and drabs, little bits of, you know, information, pictures. Oh, here's where mummy's going to go. Um, Mommy's gonna sing this song, you know, Mommy's gonna, it was just little bits of information and we tried not to overwhelm her with it.

Um, and then I guess, you know, it's just maybe, um, like, I don't know in this situation whether the mother is going to go away for the week and she hasn't ever been away from her child before. Let's assume she hasn't, 

[00:58:26] Emma Pickett: yeah. 

[00:58:27] Jessica Greenfield: I mean, maybe go out for dinner or something on their own or with a friend, just test it, just a couple, a few hours.

A few hours. So it's not just like this, boom, a whole week. 

[00:58:40] Emma Pickett: So just to give the partner the chance to practice a little bit. Yeah. I mean, one thing I do sometimes say, and come back at me if you don't agree with this, I sometimes say, you can't really practice not being there when you're there. So I don't, I don't actually advocate that, you know, your partner does bedtime and nighttime parenting for two nights and you lock yourself in the spare room and, because actually if that doesn't go well, they're both going to be left feeling a lot more vulnerable and wobbly.

And actually when you're, when you're not there, everybody knows you're not there and they behave differently. So you can't, you can't really practice. And I'm, I'm not even sure I'd advocate, you know, you know, she's going to go to granny's next week. So let's have a whole night at granny's this week, because again, if it doesn't go well, that doesn't really help anybody, but certainly a little bit of practice in terms of, you know, the other, the other care are doing a bit of bedtime, just trying it, just seeing for both of them, not just for the child.

Yeah. 

[00:59:31] Jessica Greenfield: Yeah, because it's daunting. It's really, it's really daunting, especially if the partner hasn't had much hands on time with that person's away, you know, working all the time and they come back. just for, to read a story or something like that. They're not used to that. to what the, what the other parent might be doing.

I mean, um, you know, that's quite stereotypical there, but you know, it could be the other way around. So it's just, it's giving that person the chance to, yeah, to do those things that the other parent might do most of the time and build up that confidence a little, a little bit. So when that parent goes away, it's not so.

Overwhelming. They've done it, at least. 

[01:00:10] Emma Pickett: Yeah, and I'm, I'm, I'm, like what you just said about is, it's actually the adult's confidence as much as anything. Because if, if the adult feels more confident, they're going to be able to co regulate the child. It's not so much preparing and practicing for the little, for the child's benefit.

It's often for the adult's benefit as well. 

[01:00:25] Jessica Greenfield: Yeah, and I think, I think it, you know, it's, parenting is, it, it can be so, there's so many things that can trigger stuff in you as a parent. That is like, oh, oh, I feel like I'm out of control here or, oh, I, I feel like I don't know how to parent and I don't feel like a grown up and I, you know, and I think it's about like looking at that and, and.

Parenting yourself a little bit and saying, it's okay, you know, things are going to happen and it might not go to plan. 

[01:00:57] Emma Pickett: And if your child is really sad and really cross, that's okay. As you said, you know, what your partner's doing about just validating. You don't have to have a magic switch. No one's got a magic switch to switch off a child who's feeling sad.

You know, even if you feel like, you know, you might find yourself at one o'clock in the morning thinking, Oh, you know, they've left us and I just feel I can't do this. And that, as you say, it's talking to yourself in that moment. It's regulating yourself and thinking, why is this so triggering for me? Why am I feeling like such a failure?

What can I do to sort myself out? 

[01:01:26] Jessica Greenfield: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. 

[01:01:29] Emma Pickett: Thank you so much for sharing your story today, Jessica, I really appreciate it. And, and, you know, not everyone has done even does as much travel as you and the fact that you've done all these different trips, and yet you are still breastfeeding today, really shows how travel and work does not have to be a barrier to breastfeeding.

And 

[01:01:46] Jessica Greenfield: no, it doesn't. It doesn't. Thank you so much for you know, creating this podcast for people to come on and feel like breastfeeding is perfectly normal and okay. And to be celebrated. 

[01:01:57] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And celebrate what you've done for sure. Is there anything we haven't talked about that you think we need to talk about or anything we haven't covered?

[01:02:05] Jessica Greenfield: Um, I don't think so. I probably will come up with something after we've ended the chat. Well, we can always put it on Instagram 

[01:02:13] Emma Pickett: if that's the case. Yeah, true. Yeah. Thank you so much for your time today, Jessica. I really appreciate it and good luck with your future career. Thank you so much.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at emmapickettibclc and on Twitter at makesmilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist, and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.