Infant feeding grief with Dr Harriet Holroyd

Many parents who don’t meet their breastfeeding goals experience feelings of grief and even trauma that can affect their lives for years to come. This week I’m joined by the brilliant Dr Harriet Holroyd, a clinical psychologist and EMDR (Eye-Movement Desensitisation and Reprocessing) practitioner, to discuss some approaches to resolving those feelings. We discuss some of the reasons for breastfeeding grief and trauma, and suggest some ways you can begin to find support if you or your loved one is suffering.

Dr Harriet Holroyd is @‌the_lactation_psychologist on instagram or find out more on her website www.thelactationpsychologist.com

My latest book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

Resources mentioned - 

Lucy Ruddle IBCLC, Breastfeeding Grief: Understanding and Recovery

Professor Amy Brown, Why Breastfeeding Grief and Trauma Matter

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This Transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett and I'm a Lactation Consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end.

And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too. Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding Breastfeeding is amazing, and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk, and of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm really honoured to be joined by Dr Harriet Holroyd, who is a clinical psychologist with a special interest in breastfeeding grief and trauma, and in infant feeding psychology. So we're going to be exploring those topics today and we're both mindful of the fact that that is not necessarily an easy topic for everyone to listen to but I'm hoping it's going to bring some validation and greater understanding for those of you who can stick with us because we both agree it's a really really important topic to explore.

Thank you very much for joining me today Harriet. I know your background is in general clinical practice as a psychologist. Can I just ask you what led you to focus on the area of infant feeding and particularly breastfeeding grief and trauma? 

[00:01:29] Dr Harriet Holroyd: First of all, can I just say thank you so much for having me on with you, Emma.

This is an area that's, uh, so important and I'm really excited to come and talk with you about it today. So, I just want to explain a little bit about my personal story, if that's okay, so 

[00:01:44] Emma Pickett: Yeah, please do. 

[00:01:45] Dr Harriet Holroyd: I have two small children. And with my second daughter, things were really tricky with feeding her really from day one.

She struggled to latch on. She, um, had a bit of an aversion to feeding. She cried a lot. She struggled to gain weight. Um, and I saw So, you know, different professionals to try and work out what on earth is going on. Um, and I was told there was no tongue tie. Um, but actually she did have tongue tie. Um, and her tongue tie was cut at four weeks old and then again at, um, 11 weeks old.

But I was given various, varying pieces of advice from different profession, uh, different professionals. Even things like, you know, actually everything is fine. Just continue to feed her with a shallow latch. It's all fine. Um, and this was in the context of a baby who cried a lot and would only just about feed in a dark room.

Um, and, and so things were actually extremely stressful. 

[00:02:41] Emma Pickett: Sorry that you had that experience, Harriet, but I'm going to guess, spoiler alert, that we benefit from your struggling because that's going to give you empathy in working with your patients. But I don't make assumptions. Do carry on. 

[00:02:53] Dr Harriet Holroyd: So, so, um, yeah, I think you're, you're on the right track.

You're, you're guessing correctly. So, I mean, eventually she did be better, but these issues really spanned the first six months of her life, um, beyond the first six months, actually, really. And it wasn't the feeding journey that I had hoped for. And to just add contrast, my older daughter, um, actually fed really well.

Um, so she, she latched on fine and fed well, right from, right from the beginning. So I was really looking forward to having another similar experience with the younger one, but it didn't, unfortunately didn't happen in that way. So as you've mentioned, I'm a clinical psychologist and I'm also an EMDR therapist, and we will go on to talk about that EMDR in a little bit, but I just want to give a kind of brief note on what clinical psychologists do.

So, clinical psychologists receive specialist training in a range of psychological and emotional difficulties across the lifespan and in a range of settings. And one thing that psychologists do is offer psychological understandings of, um, known as a formulation, um, of, uh, a difficulty a person might be experiencing, uh, looking at what, um, uh, past experiences may be contributing to these difficulties and how these difficulties are being maintained in present life.

And then we find ways of treating these difficulties. So, um, two of the main treatments I use are, uh, CBT, cognitive behavioral therapy, and EMDR. Feeding a baby can bring up a huge range of emotions. And when it's not going well, or ends before somebody is ready for it to finish, it can feel hugely distressing, causing feelings of grief, and loss, and even trauma.

And these are all things that clinical psychologists are trained to, uh, support with. And having had a really challenging experience myself, I really wanted to be able to use my skills as a clinical psychologist and EMDR therapist. To be able to support, um, other individuals with their feeding journey, whatever that looks like for them and whatever makes it feel difficult, painful or distressing.

[00:04:50] Emma Pickett: Yeah, thank you. That's really helpful. I really appreciate you sharing your personal experience. I know as a professional psychologist, that's not necessarily how you start every conversation, but I think it really helps us get insight into How you realize how important this was. And even and even though you were still breastfeeding when things didn't necessarily go to plan, it was, you know, it was painful for you.

You were dealing with, you know, that feeling of grief and loss and and and that word trauma as you know, an important word. And I know Amy Brown talks about her research in breastfeeding grief and trauma and how trauma is the appropriate label to put on it because those feelings are so extreme. You talked about it.

CBT, Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, and I know that's, so that's a sort of talk therapy type experience. And then you talked about EMDR. Now I know not everybody will be familiar with what EMDR is, and I know you do some really important work in this area. So can you kind of give us the sort of basic definition, talk to us like we're five, what's EMDR, how does it work, and why is it particularly useful for breastfeeding trauma?

Okay. 

[00:05:54] Dr Harriet Holroyd: Absolutely. So I'll just start by saying that EMDR stands for Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing. Which is quite a mouthful. Um, but I'm, I'm going to kind of break your question down into different sections, cause it's a, it's a huge, it's a huge question really. And this is such an important treatment to talk about.

So first of all, I just want to explain what happens when our brain processes new information. So just normal everyday information. So, and then. Uh, when situations feel more distressing. So usually our body and brain manages new information and experiences without us really being aware of it. So when a normal everyday event is processed, it's stored in the brain in a way that feels coherent, like a story.

So for example, if you, um, go to the shops and then you have lunch, um, that just is stored in our brain as, as just that, that verbal memory with, with, without emotion really attached to it. However, when something out of the ordinary occurs, such as a distressing or traumatising event, your body and brain's natural way of managing information can become overloaded, and the normal method for processing information in the brain does not work.

So when that happens, these experiences remain unprocessed in the brain, and these unprocessed memories and feelings are stored in their raw emotional form, rather than becoming a coherent story, like with an everyday occurrence. What can then happen is that these memories can then continuously be triggered by similar events linked to the original distressing event and therefore continue to cause you to feel distressed.

Okay, okay. 

[00:07:35] Emma Pickett: So they're sort of staying at the front, they're staying sort of fresh and new and those new triggers are, you're experiencing that same level of emotional reaction every time. Okay. Yeah. 

[00:07:45] Dr Harriet Holroyd: So now I just go on now to just explain what this looks like with regards to breastfeeding. So, the process of breastfeeding can, at times, feel emotional and distressing, and this can be for a huge number of different reasons.

For example, not being given the right support, having to triple feed for long periods of time, having a baby with an issue such as tongue tie, feeding causing you pain, needing to tube feed, perhaps for a medical reason. Anything where, you know, the journey hasn't been smooth, hasn't gone to plan. So, this can often feel painful and distressing, and it can trigger thoughts such as, I'm a failure, or I'm not a good mum.

And experiencing such thoughts and memories around breastfeeding can then be hugely distressing, um, and then may be triggered by situations such as seeing other women breastfeed, or talking about breastfeeding. Essentially, this experience has led to unprocessed memories in the brain, and it can also be linked to unprocessed memories in the brain from early, early life as well.

So, um, you know, the, the thoughts of I'm a, I'm a failure would have been activated from another part of somebody's life, uh, perhaps, um, you know, another situation where they also felt the same. So that can then be activated by breastfeeding, not going to plan as well. 

[00:09:01] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:09:02] Dr Harriet Holroyd: Does that make sense? 

[00:09:02] Emma Pickett: So yeah, no, that was, that was, yeah, that's, that's helpful.

So we're, we're dealing with this, the brain not quite organizing itself in a, in a way that's helpful or, or, um, you know, healthy and, and that sort of fresh pain continuing. So tell us about what EMDR is going to be doing. 

[00:09:17] Dr Harriet Holroyd: Yes. So, so as I've said, EMDR stands for eye movement desensitization and reprocessing.

Um, and it's a therapeutic approach, which enables the processing of these traumatic and distressing memories, which can ultimately lead to healing from these experiences. So EMDR enables the brain to process these memories in a natural way, resulting in a significant reduction in emotional distress.

EMDR uses bilateral stimulation. Well, electrosimulation basically means from side to side, that's done usually with eye movements. So basically eye movements, eyes moving from side to side. And it was actually, it was established by someone called Francine Shapiro. Um, she discovered that moving her eyes from side to side whilst thinking about a recent distressing situation enabled her to feel less distressed.

And so just to kind of just to Give a nod to the theory. So the main theoretical model for EMDR is called adaptive information processing model. Basically, these unprocessed memories, uh, become unstuck during EMDR, allowing them to integrate into a person's, uh, into the brain's natural memory network. I, I, should I just go on to explain what happens during an EMDR?

Yeah, please do. Yeah, 

[00:10:32] Emma Pickett: that would be really helpful. So I can, we can, I can see from what you're saying then that we're. We're sort of, I guess dampening's not the right word because that suggests it's unhealthy, but we're, we're taking them from a place that's raw into a place that feels more natural and integrated, which hopefully, hopefully then means daily life is, is happier and more settled and more peaceful and you're not going to be triggered in quite the same raw way, you know, for example, if you saw someone breastfeeding.

And that's got something to do with how eye movement is affecting brain processing, which I'm not going to pretend to understand. Luckily, you're the one who's going to be able to make it work. Um, yeah, talk to me about a scenario. Let's imagine you're working with someone who's got breastfeeding trauma.

How would that go? How would you go about doing that? 

[00:11:11] Dr Harriet Holroyd: So, um, Distressing memories are brought to the, brought to the mind. So somebody with breastfeeding trauma will be asked to think of, and preparation, just preparation is, um, is done for this. And actually just a side note I want to say, is this should only be carried out by a trained EMDR therapist.

So I'll, I'll explain what happens, but please don't anybody try and do this EMDR therapist. So if somebody is experiencing breastfeeding trauma, they'll be asked to think of a particular, particular distressing memory linked to that. Preparation would have been done to kind of support them to find the best memory for that.

And they'll be asked to bring that to mind alongside the main negative belief that the person holds about themselves. So that might be, I'm a failure, or I'm inadequate, I'm not good enough. Uh, alongside where the, um, memory is felt in the body. So, for example, um, people will notice tension in certain body parts, or they might, uh, notice that, you know, that their, their, uh, heart is racing fast, or they, you know, they might have a, uh, a knot in their stomach.

Just anything that, you know, any, any of the kind of, um, body symptoms that are there. And so these three things are brought together at the same time as carrying out the bilateral stimulation. Um, with the eye, usually with the eye movements, and then what happens is that, um, uh, the therapist will, would pause, um, and ask the person to report back on what their experience is.

And then we would resume processing, um, and this processing would go on for the majority of the session, um, and would actually usually take more than one session. The amount of time it takes really varies between, between, uh, from person to person. Sometimes things process quite quickly. Sometimes things take longer if there's more components to them.

And, um, at the end of the session, the person would be supported to come back to feelings of safety and being in the present. And then often, um, exercises are practiced between sessions to support the person with the symptoms they're experiencing between sessions. And once the distressing situation has been processed, the person receiving the EMDR will feel less distressed, often lighter.

And the negative beliefs they hold about themselves will have been replaced with more positive beliefs. It really, really is amazing. Um, and being, being an EMDR, I, I, I really love it. Um, I, it's, it's so amazing to see and I just really want to add in there that EMDR is an evidence based treatment. Um, used for a range of psychological difficulties, including trauma.

What this means is that there have been research studies carried out that offer evidence, um, that, you know, that EMDR works. 

[00:14:02] Emma Pickett: I mean it really does sound magic, doesn't it? I mean the way you describe it, it sounds like, I mean, and I can hear from what you're saying. There's a reason why we don't do this in our kitchens with our best friends.

I mean, to know which memories to bring to the surface, those three different elements you're talking about, you know, that takes skill to help someone feel safe in doing that. And then not only that, we've then got to add in the skill of actually doing the EMDR processing itself and then the recovery period.

And then knowing what you do the next session and knowing what needs to happen between sessions. There's a whole lot of skill going on here. And I guess one of the things I'd probably want to add is that I've, I've known people who've used EMDR and, and, and we know that particularly for trauma, it is, it is helpful.

So we're talking about, you know, trauma when we're talking about breastfeeding trauma. And some people might think, Oh no, come on, it's got to be talk therapy. Surely it's all got to be talk therapy, but you're not excluding that. You might do that as well alongside. Right, Daph question. When the EMDR is actually happening, what are you physically doing?

Are you tapping someone on the head with a biro? What are you actually physically doing? 

[00:15:05] Dr Harriet Holroyd: I would be waving my fingers back and forth to stimulate eye movements back and forth. If that's the desired method for the bilateral stimulation in that particular person. Sometimes people prefer tapping, where they might then tap alternately on their shoulders.

Uh, so on their own, uh, their own shoulders, this sometimes known as like butterfly tapping. And then actually other, other methods that are sometimes used are, um, uh, like buzzers in the hands. I, I personally haven't used, used those. I, I don't have access to those, but essentially it's, it's finding a way to do bilateral stimulation, which is that back and forth, um, that the, the person receiving the EMDR, um, the, the, the best method for them, the method that they feel.

most comfortable with. Although just to add, sometimes we do switch methods um, to support the processing if there's some kind of block to processing. 

[00:16:01] Emma Pickett: Okay, so they're moving, they're moving their eyes backwards and forwards. It's a dark question obviously we're going to need to have eyes that move and eyes that that work and presumably two eyes that move backwards and forwards.

I'm guessing there's not been a lot of studies on people for whom that's not the case and you're talking while you're doing that. And you're talking about the memory, or are they just holding the memory in their mind themselves? 

[00:16:22] Dr Harriet Holroyd: They are just holding the memory in mind themselves. Um, so I wouldn't be talking during it.

I would be letting their brain and their body process. And then I'd be pausing to allow them to just quickly feedback what's going on for them. Um, so they might, you know, say, say a line of, um, you know, they might have a particular memory that's come up or a particular thought, um, and they'll say that and then we go straight back into the processing.

[00:16:48] Emma Pickett: Okay. And can they change their memory? Do people say actually that one maybe isn't the right choice or do you, do you spend quite a bit of time picking that core memory? 

[00:16:58] Dr Harriet Holroyd: Okay, so I just first of all want to draw a distinction between different instances of trauma and different memories linked to one trauma.

So, for example, you may be experiencing breastfeeding trauma, but you have also some symptoms of trauma from another situation, say a road traffic accident five years ago. Generally, we would not switch to a different incident until we've finished processing the first one. Although, someone's mind might go there during processing, in which case we would let it.

We would have worked together to map out the best starting point and treatment plan for the trauma processing. But, say we are working on a particular trauma, so for example, someone who is traumatized by trying to establish breastfeeding. We would have worked together to activate the trauma by bringing to mind a memory that represents the whole thing, um, the whole trauma.

This memory will often be the most distressing part of the trauma and will be in the form of an image. The trauma processing will then process other memories, emotions, body sensations linked to the entire instant of trauma, not just the activating memory we have selected. So with this purpose in mind, I haven't been in a situation where we have needed to switch 

[00:18:10] Emma Pickett: to a different memory.

Okay. Okay. No, thank you. So I'm just asking you about the processing to understand it. So it's really helpful to get that. So having that visualization of that core memories, you know, part of your process is helping them to find the right one. And then you mentioned that sometimes people might have a repeat session.

I mean, if someone's dealing with breastfeeding grief and trauma, might you have three sessions? I mean, what's a sort of typical course of treatment? 

[00:18:35] Dr Harriet Holroyd: Really difficult to answer that question because it really depends on the person's history and what else is going on for them and what else might be underneath.

Um, some, sometimes, sometimes stuff processes relatively, relatively quickly. And, and I really would not want to put a, uh, say a number of sessions, to be honest with you, because it's so individual. Um, and, and people need to have like an individual assessment, but that being said, if somebody does have a kind of.

Limit, limit to how many sessions they would want to do. You can sort of get so far with processing it. You might not process it all, but you can take the process into a point where someone might feel a lot better, even if. The whole thing hasn't been finished, if that makes sense. Yeah, 

[00:19:25] Emma Pickett: and I guess that's true for breastfeeding grief and trauma.

It's not like you've got a magic wand. You're not going to do the Dumbledore wiggling his wand and the memory being pulled out like, you know, Harry Potter. I mean, something's going to stick and stay. And, and But you've, you've lightened it, you've softened it, you've helped it to be more manageable, which I think is, and I know people are finding really, really valuable.

Okay, thanks so much, Harriet. So let me just ask another question. So, so anyone who's been working in the field of infant feeding for a while has absolutely met people who have been impacted by grief and trauma around their journeys. I mean, I remember when I, Very first started to do home visits. I would quite often get kind of, you know, grannies accosting me in the kitchen and I thought they were going to talk to me about their daughter or their daughter in law, but actually they were talking about their own infant feeding journeys and, and how difficult it felt to be seeing a new baby feeding in front of them because they hadn't processed their own traumas.

Are you supporting people? really soon after their breastfeeding journeys, or is it sometimes years after their feeding journeys? What's the sort of experience that you've been managing? 

[00:20:28] Dr Harriet Holroyd: Both of those things are entirely possible in terms of the processing. It's possible to process the trauma and the grief, even years, decades after, after it's occurred.

But I also just want to add it really just goes to show how deeply individuals can be affected by their experience of feeding their baby when, when people are, you know, when it's held onto you for so, for so long. But it certainly makes sense that these feelings may be brought to the surface by seeing a daughter or daughter in law feeding their baby.

[00:20:59] Emma Pickett: Thanks Harriet. Yeah, so I mean, I think it's helpful for people to know that they don't have to necessarily go, you know, days after they finish breastfeeding or within the first few weeks or months, they might even want a little bit of space before they come for that treatment. So it's good to know that it can have a positive impact, you know, even quite a while afterwards.

That's valuable to know. 

[00:21:15] Dr Harriet Holroyd: Grandmothers can have such an influence on a new mother's feeding experience. And if a, if a grandmother is, is feeling distressed and traumatized by her own experience, this can have such an impact on the new mother's experience. The grandmother seeing, perhaps seeing her daughter or daughter, daughter in law in pain from feeding may start to bring up her, you know, own triggers of her own journey.

And then the grandmother might then, you know, want to protect the, the, the new mom from that pain. And then might be, you know, suggest, suggesting that the, that the new mom stops breastfeeding, which will come, you know, come from a place of love and a place, place of care. But actually it can really heavily influence the new, the new mom's feeding.

experience. And so actually being, being a grandmother, taking the time to process her and experience can, can enable her to give space to the new mom, her daughter or daughter in law to be able to then support them with their breastfeeding experience. 

[00:22:11] Emma Pickett: Granny's doing EMDR is, and having this sort of therapy would be a really useful thing to tap into because it would affect everybody's breastfeeding journeys.

Yeah, I mean, we know that in the UK, you know, for the last infant feeding survey, you know, 80 percent of mums are saying that they don't reach their feeding goals, which is, which is a huge number. And it's actually kind of surprising that not, you know, every corner of the high street doesn't have a psychologist specializing in infant grief and trauma.

I mean, it's definitely not the case. I mean, why do you think that, that breastfeeding grief and trauma often isn't getting the support it needs and isn't fully recognized? 

[00:22:45] Dr Harriet Holroyd: So, I mean, this is just a massive question, isn't it? And I'm, I'm, I've got some ideas. I don't know if, hopefully I'll be able to do it some justice.

Uh, I mean, it just, first of all, it's, it's really in terms of the, the kind of, um, value placed upon, upon breastfeeding full stop, um, and placed upon, uh, women and, and women's health full stop is, is, you know, kind of. Quite a big area here to think about but also, you know, there is a Lack of funding and resources within within the NHS and the health visiting service Which means that often there are longer waiting wait times and shorter appointments Which means that, you know, often the, uh, in these appointments, the, the physical physiological side of breastfeeding, you know, and checking the baby's gaining weight is what's focused on rather than the mother's mental health and rather than the mother's kind of, uh, what's going on for her.

So actually the short appointments are less likely to enable longer discussion. So just to kind of give an example, I was thinking, I'm thinking about, so perhaps a baby is struggling to latch and not gaining weight as expected. The mother may be advised to give formula, the baby gains weight, the mother gives more formula, the mother's supply drops and she may perceive herself to not make enough milk, eventually she stops breastfeeding, but the baby is gaining weight.

So the problem is solved, or so perhaps it appears, but what we are missing is the complex set of emotions for the mother around her breastfeeding experience and its premature ending. And it is highly likely that this is not actually being asked about because there isn't, you know, there isn't the space or the time or the resource to be able to do that.

Additionally, it could be that actually it's a few months down the line that the, the, you know, the mother's no longer having, you know, the, the regular follow up with the health visiting service or the midwives. And she doesn't even know where to, you know, where to turn to, you know, starts to kind of think about the journey she's been on.

And then she doesn't actually know where to turn to for, for help. Um, and navigating the public health system is hard and finding the right support is hard. Um, and doing this in the context of becoming a new mom and the sleep deprivation and the overwhelm is a huge task. So it's, you know, it's, it's really, it's really difficult to reach out for help with these issues.

And then on the occasions when distress is picked up on or people are reaching out for help, um, often it's not sort of known where, where the help can come from. And, you know, where, where can people be signposted to for, for the, um, breastfeeding grief or trauma. And I just want to highlight healthcare workers are not individually, uh, you know, to blame for this.

They're being governed by a system which does not hold enough resource. You know, to support the staff, to be able to support the new mother. So often mothers are told, you know, at least the baby is healthy and, you know, to try and sort of make them feel okay about their experience. But unfortunately, this is likely to shut down any further conversation about how the mother is really feeling and stop them seeking support.

And just sort of add to this breastfeeding is such a sensitive topic and there could be stigma around not being able to breastfeed and that stigma prevents the discussion and then people will be suffering in silence without realizing that this is why they're struggling. 

[00:26:05] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, I think your point about the stigma is really important and also the idea that people comfort by saying, you know, it doesn't matter, we're okay, you know.

Your next door neighbor didn't even want to breastfeed and formula fed from birth and almost that you're not entitled to your grief because, you know, it's almost self indulgent. It's silly. You know, you're being daft and people try and sort of talk you out of it in a way you would never dream of talking someone out of, you know, another kind of trauma.

So, so I think your point at the beginning about how this comes a little bit from misogyny and ignoring women's health generally, but also I think Just not even realizing that breastfeeding grief and trauma is something that is absolutely real and people absolutely feel. Um, and I'm very much entitled to feel and, and just, just hearing, you know, you say as a professional, you know, how important it is that it's properly recognised is, I think, a really valuable message.

I'm just aware that some of the people who work in health systems, who might even be the managers, the NHS managers, or the actual health professionals themselves, who work with new mums, may also have some unprocessed, traumatic feeding journeys themselves, and have experienced difficult feeding journeys themselves.

So as professionals that work with new families, I mean, we've got some work to do as well, I'm guessing. 

[00:27:22] Dr Harriet Holroyd: It really is highly likely that professionals who work within the world of infant feeding have their own experience of difficult feeding journeys. As I've already mentioned, I, I did, um, we are all human beings and we all have a past and we will all be impacted by the past.

Um, and our experiences shape who we are. Personal experiences can really help somebody with their work. It can give them a deeper understanding, deeper empathy and compassion for people's individual situations. And that passion can really shine through, um, when working with someone who is experiencing difficulties with their, with their feeding, um, journey.

And actually, recent, recent research suggests that people who work in healthcare are more likely to experience trauma during their lives. It is therefore important as healthcare workers, we take the time to process our own experiences and take steps to make sure our own experiences do not negatively, um, impact those of the people we are supporting by perhaps, for example, giving incorrect, um, or biased advice based upon our, our, our own feelings.

So really what this looks like is having an understanding of your own experiences and how your experiences have impacted you. having insight into your own emotions and triggers and knowing what you can do to manage your emotions. We will all have experienced, um, uh, situations that have caused a psychological distress.

After all, we're all only human. Uh, but the key here is to process your own stuff. And it's important to know where more professional support is needed to, to, to do this with a cycle, a psychologist or therapist. 

[00:28:51] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So someone who's working with new families. You know, may already be someone who's more open to some of this thinking because that's what there's, there's that sort of chicken and egg thing, isn't it?

If you're working in a caring profession, it may be, as I said, because you've been through some experiences yourselves that have led you to that, that place of empathy and understanding. But I'm also wondering about, there is a responsibility here, isn't there, in the system. So if you're doing breastfeeding training, for example, if you're training midwives or, or breastfeeding supporters or health visitors.

You've got to have space in that training to encourage some of this self reflection and then Encourage some of this debriefing and it and it I guess if it's revealed that somebody has more serious trauma It would be brilliant if that meant they they were able to go on to do more You know more detailed care or even get access to EMDR themselves, but I guess realistically that may not always be possible But but I think it's having that self awareness, isn't it and professionals knowing?

that they have to keep an eye on themselves and I know and I love what you said about how When someone does have trauma, that's nothing to be embarrassed about. That's a gift in some ways, because, as you say, it makes them a more passionate carer and supporter of others and potentially gives them an empathy that others may not have.

So it's not something to sort of hide away from. It's something to sort of look at in the, you know, look in the face of and engage, um, directly, which I think is really valuable. And, and I guess nobody is going to be entirely free of some sort of baggage. We just all have to acknowledge what, what our baggage is.

A little

advert just to say that you can buy my four books online. You've Got It In You, a positive guide to breastfeeding is 99p as an ebook and that's aimed at expectant and new parents. The breast book published by Pinterest Martin is a guide for 9 14 year olds and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed.

And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond 6 months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding. For a 10 percent discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley Press, that's uk. jkp. com and use the code MMPE10. Makes milk, pick it Emma, 10. Thanks. Those words grief and trauma, we've kind of been, we've been sort of putting them together and I guess I probably don't really understand what trauma means in a clinical sense, so, so what do those words actually mean if you're talking from a sort of professional perspective?

[00:31:20] Dr Harriet Holroyd: So grief, grief refers to loss, so um, particularly the loss of something significant. So, therefore, breastfeeding grief refers to, to loss in regards to breastfeeding. Now, the element of what is lost may vary between individuals depending upon what was important to the individual. Um, some people feel grief they did not manage to breastfeed at all, whilst others may feel grief because a specific part of the journey was not what they had wanted.

Um, and some may feel grief because it, breastfeeding ended before they were ready. Be it that they fed for two weeks, two months or two years or, or longer. So grief around the ending of breastfeeding may be tied to feelings about the loss of the breastfeeding relationship, um, or about your body not working properly.

Um, and feelings of grief involve many different feelings, including anger, sadness, guilt, and, and numbness. And, and, you know, from someone who's grieving will, will, will move between, you know, different feelings. And grief is a normal emotional reaction to loss. Um, and spending time grieving the loss of breastfeeding is likely to be really helpful.

Um, a really, a really wonderful book to help with the grief process is Lucy Buddle's book, Breastfeeding Grief, Um, Understanding and Recovery. And there are some really nice exercises in there that can support the grieving, um, process, um, and finding other ways to fulfill what is lost. Uh, so by connecting with the underlying value.

Uh, for example, if you wanted to breastfeed due to how connected it would make you feel with your baby, finding other ways to achieve that level of connection, for example, skin to skin or baby wearing. Additionally, seeking therapeutic support, including EMDR, can be helpful to manage feelings of grief.

There is a possibility that someone is also experiencing trauma in addition to their grief. Um, the definition of trauma has, has changed over time. So trauma used to refer only to extreme life threatening situations. Um, and some, some women will have experienced life threatening situations in the context of feeding their baby.

So for example, a baby who is unwell, um, a baby who is struggling to gain weight. However, we now think of trauma more in terms of symptomology. So the main symptoms of trauma are the experience of reliving the traumatic incident. Um, so this can be in the form of, uh, visual flashbacks, as if you're back there.

experiencing it, emotional flashbacks or physical flashbacks in terms of the physical sensations or the emotions, nightmares relating to the incident. Often people with trauma will avoid anything that might remind them of the situation, including people, places, or things. And usually there will be intrusive distressing thoughts such as, I'm a failure or I'm not good enough, and often feelings of guilt.

And these feelings and thoughts, uh, will be overwhelming, strong and long lasting. And it's highly likely they will interfere with, with a person's everyday functioning. 

[00:34:05] Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. Thank you. So, yeah, that, that makes sense. So, so it absolutely is valid to talk about it in the context of, of when people are dealing with the end of their breastfeeding experience or their breastfeeding experience, not going as they hoped.

You've just touched on anger as being one of the emotions that people will fluctuate with and we do often talk, hear people talking about anger in relation to their breastfeeding journeys and often they feel really angry that they've been let down by a system that didn't support them and the system that's not funded properly or maybe they feel angry that they've been let down by the people close to them and not supporting them And I, and I sometimes think it's, it's okay to be angry, like angry is actually justified and not necessarily an unhealthy emotion, but, but how can somebody sort of live with that anger and, and still function and recover?

Where do we need to kind of put that anger? 

[00:34:55] Dr Harriet Holroyd: Feelings of anger are so important and valid, um, and anger is a very normal human emotion and it makes sense that someone may experience feelings of anger relating to their breastfeeding journey. So the first thing we need is for this anger to be processed.

Um, and one, one potential way to do this is, is, uh, by journaling. Um, so journaling about your experiences, including all your thoughts and feelings. You don't need to hold back, particularly when you know no one else will be reading it. Additionally, often we can find ourselves being quite self critical and using quite self critical language in the way we talk to ourselves.

Um, another thing that can be really helpful is to find, find compassionate language. We really can't try and catch ourselves if we're being critical. Um, and, and find, find more compassionate ways to talk to ourselves. Once feelings of anger have been processed, it is possible that they will actually motivate and energize us.

Um, and in the context of breastfeeding support, for example, feeling angry about one's own experiences can often result in a bit of a call to action. Um, and this is why so many individuals, once they have been through difficult experiences during the perinatal period, uh, become involved in wanting to support and make things better for other women.

And this can be a really helpful way of directing, you know, directing anger and what's happened to you. Of course, it's really important to be mindful that your own experiences aren't then impacting the people that you're supporting. And it's also important to point out, though, that when someone is really struggling with anger, and perhaps feeling very angry at themselves, or even potentially at their baby, and the experience of anger is really getting in the way of your functioning and enjoyment of life, Um, first of all, if you are experiencing this, it's, it's not your fault.

Um, and it's possible that you're experiencing something more, perhaps trauma around your experiences. Um, so it is really, you know, it's really important to, to try and get some support for that, to help, you know, to help process what you've been through. 

[00:36:51] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what you're saying about helping others, I think, uh, the breastfeeding supporters of the United Kingdom are often a large group of people who did not necessarily have their breastfeeding journeys go to plan and, and, and good breastfeeding support training needs, you know, would acknowledge that and, and, and help them come through that to get to a place where they can support others.

Yeah. So I think some people might imagine that you spend a lot of time focusing on people who wanted to breastfeed, you know, had a really difficult first few weeks, you know, perhaps didn't breastfeed beyond the first few weeks, or they weren't able to achieve exclusive breastfeeding goals. But I guess it's important to note that someone else's breastfeeding success, in adverted commas, could still be a journey that causes pain and distress to someone else.

Um, and actually on paper, it may look like a successful journey, but for them, it may be something that really, you know, wasn't what they hoped for. Why do, why is it, and this is a probably a bit of a daft question, but why is it that some people are hit really hard by a journey that Maybe someone else would have no problem with.

Are there other sort of factors that make a difference to someone's reaction to their breastfeeding journey? 

[00:37:57] Dr Harriet Holroyd: So really all individuals will respond to their experiences differently and think of them differently. Essentially what will lead to some mothers finding their journey distressing or not distressing will be how they appraise, how they think about their experience and the meaning that their experience carries.

And the difference in the way we think about something is due to a number of different factors. Um, including early life experiences, which leads to the beliefs a person holds about themselves and others and the world, along with the values a person has. So additionally, how breastfeeding is viewed by those close to them will also influence how they feel and feel about their breastfeeding experience.

Ultimately, as we all have different experiences, our emotional response to our breastfeeding journey will vary. Um, it would be great to have more research into this area to look more closely at specific factors, which might mean that someone is more likely to be distressed by their feeding journey. For example, one possibility could be that if someone holds beliefs about themselves that they are not good enough or that they're a failure, those beliefs may well be triggered in the face of breastfeeding not going to plan.

potentially resulting in viewing, in viewing this experience as a more psychologically distressing than someone who does not hold these beliefs about themselves. Basically, the breastfeeding journey can therefore not be viewed objectively, and no one else can decide whether or not someone else's experiences were painful or distressing.

[00:39:17] Emma Pickett: Yeah, no, that makes, that makes perfect sense. And, and as you suggest, perhaps early, some early life stuff that has shaped their self belief is going to make a huge difference to how they react to their breastfeeding experience. Can I ask you a question about postnatal depression? So I guess it's a bit of a tricky one to answer, but just, just to touch on a little bit, um, there's obviously going to be a big overlap between postnatal depression and difficult feeding journeys.

Can you tell us a little bit more about how you come across that in your work? 

[00:39:46] Dr Harriet Holroyd: So postnatal depression is a type of depression that can affect mothers in the period after they have given birth. Some symptoms of postnatal depression include, but aren't limited to, um, persistent sadness or low mood and feelings of hopelessness, changes in appetite.

Um, and these are symptoms of, of depression generally, but also struggle, struggling to bond with your baby can be an indicator of postnatal depression. So these are just some examples. It's not an exhaustive list. So a complex combination of biological, psychological, and social factors make an individual vulnerable to postnatal depression.

So when breastfeeding is going well, um, it can be a protective factor for postnatal depression for a number of reasons. So at a biological level, breastfeeding releases hormones like oxytocin and prolactin, and these are the feel good hormones which can actually reduce the body's stress response to cortisol, and they can help a mother to feel relaxed.

At a psychological level, when breastfeeding is going well, it can make a mother feel good about themselves and looking after their baby, often giving mothers a feeling of purpose and strength. And that's all really fantastic. But then on the flip side of things, when breastfeeding, um, isn't going well, it can actually increase the risk of postnatal depression.

So it can start to activate beliefs, uh, people hold about themselves, such as I'm not, um, such as I'm, that I'm not good enough, that I'm a failure, that I'm inadequate. And it can cause an individual to feel a sense of helplessness and guilt. So activating these beliefs, particularly in the context of sleep deprivation.

Um, potentially a baby who cries a lot, um, not enough support, not enough support can then be a risk factor for postnatal depression. So it can go the other way as well. So with postnatal depression influencing feeding, it can become a psychological barrier to establishing feeding. So mothers who are experiencing depression, um, may touch or hold their babies less than mothers who are not experiencing depression.

And that then can result in them struggling to feed responsibly, which can then, um, result in them struggling to build up a milk supply. So there is often a link, but for each individual person who is experiencing feeling difficulties, um, and or postnatal depression, An individual assessment would need to be made in terms of working out, um, you know, what is happening for that individual and where the, where the support is needed.

[00:42:00] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So those two issues are really intertwined, you know, feeding journeys and postnatal depression and, and, you know, we should never make assumptions that, you know, one necessarily affects one in a particular way for everybody. I mean, one of the things that, that Amy Brown talks about in her book, um, Why Breastfeeding, Grief and Trauma Matter, which is, you mentioned Lucy Ruddle's book.

Amy Brown's book is the other go to for me. So, uh, we'll put both those books in the show notes for people to find. I'm sure people listening to this are probably aware of them already. I mean, she mentions in her book that sometimes mothers who are suffering from depression are under pressure from others to end breastfeeding, sort of in the belief that ending breastfeeding is going to help.

And what would you say to a family member who is thinking if only she ended breastfeeding, it would help with her depression? 

[00:42:44] Dr Harriet Holroyd: When family members are suggesting this, it likely comes from a really well meaning place of wanting to provide the new mum with, you know, support. And it can be really hard to see someone that they love distressed by the feeding process, especially when it's not working.

But I think it's important to say that actually having a baby is a hugely overwhelming experience, whether this is your first baby, second baby, third baby, but especially when it's your first. And just to kind of give a nod here to matrescence, the experience of that huge transition that takes place when a woman becomes a mother.

And this transition includes physical changes, emotional changes, and psychological changes. And it really highlights just how big of a change becoming a mother is. New mothers are already going through something massive, um, even when there are no extra challenges such as difficulties with feeding a baby.

Which then leads me to say that taking away breastfeeding does not take away all the overwhelming parts of becoming a new mum. Uh, so taking away breastfeeding will not take away all of the extra things, um, that need doing. For example, the baby still needs to be fed and changed and bathed and cuddled.

But once you remove breastfeeding, for some people, you actually remove something that may feel really important to them. This could actually increase the risk for postnatal depression, particularly if breastfeeding is actually going well. So, if breastfeeding is going well, but actually what the mother is struggling with is just the kind of general overwhelm of all the, you know, all the extra stuff.

Perhaps what is needed is to support the mum to look after the baby in other ways, so holding the baby so mum can have a bath or a sleep, bathing the baby, bringing the mother food, looking after any older children, should the mother want to continue with breastfeeding. If the breastfeeding is not going so well, but you know, the, the mother, it's really important to the mother and she wants to continue, um, then, then actually supporting, supporting, um, the mother to access support from, uh, you know, professional support from a lactation consultant or, um, the, you know, infant feeding team, helping her to book these appointments, taking her to these appointments, listening to what is said during these appointments to support the new mother, you know, that support could be really valuable in helping her to continue breastfeeding.

If that's what she, if that's what she wants, but just ending breastfeeding is rarely the answer and it is likely to create a 

[00:45:04] Emma Pickett: whole new problem. 

[00:45:05] Dr Harriet Holroyd: I 

[00:45:06] Emma Pickett: think that's absolutely right. I mean, I think, uh, yeah, I mean, we know that when people end breastfeeding, when they don't want to end breastfeeding, you know, we're not, we're going to miss the oxytocin, we're going to potentially trigger the breastfeeding grief and trauma that wasn't even there in the first place.

And I, and I, and I know from personal experience of working with families in weaning. If somebody's weaning because of external pressure from someone else, that is tough. That is not going to end well, or happily or healthily. And if, and if someone they love is saying to them, you know, you're overwhelmed, you're struggling with your depression, come on, you should stop breastfeeding.

I mean, you can see on one level that's coming from a place of someone trying to help, but, you know, it isn't ultimately going to end happily, I don't think. And we really want parents and mums to end breastfeeding when they want to. I mean, as you know, I work a lot with parents who are weaning, particularly weaning toddlers and children and older children.

As a psychologist, do you, are you able to offer any support with that kind of weaning process? 

[00:46:00] Dr Harriet Holroyd: So absolutely. Um, so, uh, weaning from breastfeeding can bring up all sorts of thoughts and feelings from mother and indeed the, the toddler or child will have their own thoughts and feelings in relation to, to weaning and all of these emotions are valid and important.

Support can be offered to understand the role breastfeeding plays for both the mother and child and potentially other members of the family. And it's possible to make use of this understanding to support the process of weaning. For example, it's highly likely that breastfeeding might be used to support emotion regulation and it can be a great tool for this.

Um, weaning takes this away and so sessions can support the mother and child to find new ways to regulate their emotions. And work through any stumbling blocks, uh, for this. Okay. 

[00:46:47] Emma Pickett: You talked about the mother and the child, but I'm guessing it's not the child who'll be in the session. It would be the, it would be the mother.

It would just be the mom in the session. Yeah. So you're gonna, so you'd help her to explore that role that breastfeeding has and maybe think about what might replace it and what other emotional regulation tools she might use instead? Possibly, and, and. To help her think that through. Yeah. And 

[00:47:06] Dr Harriet Holroyd: actually, um, one of the key kind of components of supporting a child to regulate their emotions is being able to, uh, sort of say calm and regulated yourself to be able to provide them with the space to, uh, to be able to process their emotions.

Um, so, you know, we would talk about the child's emotions and talk about what's going on for them, but it would be the mother who attends the sessions and it would be kind of understanding, um, you know, what's going on for her and potentially even looking back, um, past experiences for her, such as, you know, how emotions were regulated within her family growing up, you know, how, how, how emotions were responded to then and, and, um, and what impact that might've had, um, on, on her, uh, to support the process as 

[00:47:49] Emma Pickett: well.

That's a big one. I do, I often talk to people who have got a little bit stuck with their breastfeeding and they're not quite sure how to wean because they're, they find the idea of emotional dysregulation really, really scary. And it, it's pressing some buttons from their own childhood. So yeah, that sounds like a really important process working with a psychologist in that moment, if you know you're going to struggle.

I know you also work with people who have anxiety about feeding and, and might be right in the middle of feeding while they're experiencing that anxiety. What sort of support can you offer there? 

[00:48:22] Dr Harriet Holroyd: So feeding a baby can be, um, anxiety provoking for a whole host of reasons. So, um, new parents are thrown into a world of looking after a vulnerable little baby and making sure they get enough nutrients for them to grow and develop.

Um, and anxiety is common amongst the general population, but also it's really common in new mothers. So to give an example of when a person can at times feel anxious when feeding their baby, someone might struggle with feeding their baby in public. Um, so I'm just going to use cognitive behavioural therapy, um, just to offer a psychological understanding of what might be going on.

So, um, Cognitive Behavioural Therapy looks at how our thoughts, feelings and behaviours interact and influence each other. So imagine you go to a cafe to meet a friend, bringing your new baby with you. Um, once in the cafe, your baby starts to show signs of needing to be fed. Um, and your first thought is, Oh my goodness, people will look at me.

Um, and you might start to feel a bit anxious, probably start to experience some physical symptoms of anxiety, such as your heart racing and your palms sweating. You might even experience further thoughts such as people will be judging me. People will see my breasts or my body. I don't want people to look at me.

And this is likely to increase the feelings of anxiety in response to your thoughts. You might even try to delay feeding your baby, or you might even leave the cafe and go home and, and stop going out as much. Or you might even choose to stop breastfeeding because feeding in public just feels too anxiety provoking.

So the Therapeutic Approach of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, CBT, can be really helpful in situations like this to support the management of the anxious thoughts and feelings and support someone to be able to feed in public if that's what they would like to do. Um, so, so this would be done by examining specific thoughts and the evidence behind them.

For example, if you have a thought, everyone is looking at me, then CBT can help you to look at whether this is in fact correct. Practicing, managing these thoughts and practicing feeding in public, starting with places that feel safer first, can gradually help a new mother to be able to feed in public, which may ultimately, ultimately result in them continuing to breastfeed, if this is what they would like to do.

So other common anxieties, um, that are linked to feeding include worries about the baby gaining weight, um, especially as breastfeeding doesn't actually enable us to, um, see just how much milk a baby is consuming. And if things were tricky to start with, for example, And a baby struggled to gain weight sufficiently when they were first born.

Um, a mother might find themselves focusing on how much the baby is feeding and how much they weigh, even once they're gaining weight well. And again, Cognitive Behavioural Therapy can offer ways of managing these anxieties. And specific worries will occur due to individuals past experiences. The way we think, information we've been exposed to, um, and psychology sessions can support this understanding of how anxiety has occurred, but also find ways forward.

[00:51:13] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think all of us who work in breastfeeding support will recognize that story of someone who had a difficult start, you know, baby didn't put on weight at the beginning or lost more than 10 percent or they were told to top up from the very beginning and they, they hadn't realized that their baby wasn't putting on weight.

And, and even if everything turns out brilliantly, you know, in the next couple of weeks, that very early beginning. Can linger and can sort of stay in the back of their mind. So I think it's important to note for people to know you can get support, you know, even right in the first few months of breastfeeding, if something is sticking with you and, and you're not able to shake it and you feel it's informing how you feel emotionally, um, you know, CBT is something that can, can help from the very beginning.

Thank you for that. So if someone is listening to this and they're, they're aware that maybe they are struggling with their feeding journey and they're, and they're worried it's going to maybe even cause them some, you know, lasting mental health impacts, what message would you want to leave them with if, if they're listening to this now?

[00:52:06] Dr Harriet Holroyd: So if you are currently struggling with how your feeding journey is going, I would like you to know that the way you are feeling, whatever that might be, is real and valid. I would also like you to know that healing from your experiences is possible and you do not have to do this alone. So if you are currently struggling, do consider looking at some of the resources we've mentioned.

So Lucy Ruddle's book, there are some really nice exercises in there to support the healing process. Um, have a look into EMDR and talking therapies generally to see whether therapy could be the right approach for you and do take the time to process the journey you have been on. Becoming a mother is a hugely overwhelming process with lots of emotions being brought to the surface and taking time to process this is what can help you to feel better and to heal.

[00:52:48] Emma Pickett: Yeah, can I just ask you a practical question about EMDR therapy? Do you have to be in the room with your patient or can it be done over a Zoom call? It can be done online. It can be done remotely. Okay, that's, that's really important to know. And how would you feel about someone looking for an EMDR therapist who doesn't necessarily have specific experience in infant feeding?

Do you think it's important that the therapist does have that specific experience or can an EMDR therapist Deal with trauma from, from any source. 

[00:53:17] Dr Harriet Holroyd: So, um, anyone who is, is trained in EMDR should, should be able to, um, carry out EMDR therapy, um, for, you know, a whole range of different trauma, trauma experiences.

However, it's, you know, um, it's important to kind of check with anyone who you're, um, sort of approaching about EMDR. Just check with them first that they feel able to support you with this particular difficulty. 

[00:53:43] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that's a good advice. I mean, any practitioner is going to welcome that initial conversation just to check in.

And if they say, Oh no, breastfeeding doesn't matter. I'm sure they're not going to say that. But if they said, Oh, formula for all my children, what are you talking about? You don't need EMDR for breastfeeding trauma. Um, you probably know to look elsewhere. But I very much doubt any of your colleagues would do that.

I'm sure they're going to find someone who they connect with. And then, if someone's listening to this who is worried about their friend or their family member, what would you want, what messages would you want to leave them with? 

[00:54:13] Dr Harriet Holroyd: So it can be, um, It can be really hard to see a, uh, you know, a loved one struggle, uh, with their, with their journey.

Um, if you are, you know, if you are able to provide a, um, a friend or family member with the spaces to, to talk through their experiences, that can be really, that can be really helpful, um, or, or offer, you know, more practical support or offer support in terms of, you know, getting, getting the mum the support that she needs.

And if your concerns are relating to your own feeding experiences and the possible impact this might be having, um, on your ability to support the new mother, please do consider getting support to process your own journey so that you then have the space to be able to, to, you know, to support, you know, other people.

Yeah. 

[00:54:55] Emma Pickett: Thank you so much for your time today, Harriet. I'm really, really grateful. I think, I think we've all learned that, that support is absolutely out there. EMDR is something we need to definitely pay more attention to in this space. Um, and nobody should have to live with that trauma certainly for months or, or years or decades.

No one should have to hang on to that, that trauma fresh in their mind. There are ways to, to soften that and ways to, to find people to support you. So thank you on behalf of the breastfeeding moms that you support, I, I, I know of a story of someone who worked with you and absolutely felt it transformed their, their approach to.

how they process their breastfeeding journey and, and their ability to see other people breastfeeding out and about. So I know what a difference you make. And, um, yeah, I'm really excited that you're able to offer this support. So thank you so much for your time today, Harriet. 

[00:55:40] Dr Harriet Holroyd: Thank you very much.

[00:55:46] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett, IBCLC and on Twitter at makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.