Bryony's story - Breastfeeding and aversion

My guest this week ticks so many different boxes when it comes to breastfeeding experiences - birth trauma, tongue tie, mixed/triple feeding, tandem feeding, gentle weaning - but what we’re going to focus on in this conversation is aversion. When I asked many of you recently about your experiences of breastfeeding in pregnancy, many of you mentioned aversion.

Bryony is a peer supporter from Norwich. After a traumatic birth and a very difficult start to breastfeeding, she fed her daughter Winnie, now 3.5 years old, through her pregnancy with her son, Stanley, and tandem fed them both for five months. Throughout the pregnancy and beyond, she felt aversion while feeding Winnie. Whilst Winnie is now weaned, she continues to feed Stanley, who is now 10 months old.

Find Bryony on Instagram @‌giveitabreast 

My latest book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

Resources mentioned - 

When Breastfeeding Sucks: What you need to know about nursing aversion and agitation https://www.lllgbbooks.co.uk/store/p237/WhenBreastfeedingSucks.html

Breastfeeding Aversion https://www.breastfeedingaversion.com/

https://www.breastfeedingsupportnorwich.com/

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This Transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett and I'm a Lactation Consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end.

And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too. Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding Breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I am looking at the lovely Bryony from Norwich in East Anglia. I went to university in Norwich, so I have a very big soft spot for Norwich. She is a mother of two and I'm going to be talking today about her breastfeeding journey. Blimey, Brian, if you don't mind me saying, you ticked a lot of boxes.

In terms of the breastfeeding support world, you went through so much and I am in awe of all the things that you went through and, and at the other end with a gentle weaning journey and a tandem feeding story, you know, at the end of it too. So if you were going to become a peer supporter, you would almost have experienced everything that is possible to experience in breastfeeding support.

Um, so I'm mindful that for some people this might be quite overwhelming because it does sound like you were up against insurmountable odds, but you got there. So whatever happens, even if people just listen to the first three minutes of this podcast, I want them to know that, that you achieved an amazing thing.

And I hope you feel really proud of yourself with all the things you had to deal with. For the title of the episode, we've mentioned your aversion because that's something I think we will talk about. Um, but it's very much not just a story about aversion, lots of other stuff going on as well. CMPA and tongue tie and top ups and, you know, pregnancy and lots and lots of issues.

Um, I don't mean to give all your story away at the beginning, but I guess part of that is a little bit of a trigger warning, I guess, because aversion can be difficult for some people to hear. What made you reach out to have this conversation? So you had a sense that this is something that other people might benefit from hearing about.

Tell me what was your thinking around that? 

[00:02:17] Bryony: I think largely because when I was pregnant and breastfeeding and then tandem feeding, there's just not a huge amount of information out there, not a huge amount of kind of Personal stories about it and your podcast was, I listened to pretty much every episode you had on Tandem Feeding and stuff like that.

Um, so that was a great resource and I guess I just thought if I can be that to someone else, then yeah, why not share what, what's happened and, and yeah, everything else I've been through as well sort of. Why not talk about it and hopefully I can help other people in the way that other people's episodes helped me.

[00:02:57] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Oh, thank you for that. Paying it forward. I very much appreciate that. Thank you so much. So, you've got two children. Tell me about who you have. How old is everybody? 

[00:03:07] Bryony: So, I've got, um, Winnie, who is, she's about three and a half. Um, and then I've got Stanley, who is, almost 10 months. 

[00:03:19] Emma Pickett: I love the name Stanley.

Um, I hope it doesn't offend you if I tell you that my dog is called Stanley. Um, he is absolutely gorgeous. Um, so it's obviously a name I like, uh, yeah, great, great name choices. So let's go back to the beginning of Winnie's breastfeeding journey. So I know that you had a really difficult Four months particularly that the start of Winnie's journey was not easy Before we even talk about your birth.

Tell me what you knew about breastfeeding before you had Winnie 

[00:03:46] Bryony: Um, I felt like I was quite informed I'd had maybe three people I knew who had had babies in this sort of year before me And all of them had breastfed, and they'd all had some kind of issue. So, I was kind of vaguely aware that there potentially would be some problems.

Um, and the, uh, like, antenatal course I did, they covered quite a lot of breastfeeding because the, the woman who ran it was a peer supporter at the hospital. So she was quite knowledgeable. And I kind of went into it feeling quite confident, like I knew, I felt like I knew what a good latch looked like. I knew all the positions and everything.

And then, yeah, very quickly realised I didn't really know much at all, but, um, yeah, I think it kind of seemed, breastfeeding seemed like the norm to me because my mum as well had breastfed me, she'd kind of mentioned she breastfed me till I was two, and my brother till he was like 18 months. So, yeah, it just seemed like That's what you do.

And yeah, I thought, I think I had the classic kind of thing of, oh, I'll give it a go and see how it pans out. 

[00:04:58] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, brilliant to hear that your mum breastfed you until you were two. I mean, that is so rare. I mean, that's not something I come across very much when I'm talking to UK mums. So that, what a gift that was to have that kind of normalisation of breastfeeding for you.

And I guess you're testament to the fact that someone can do the classes and be prepared and sometimes life throws stuff at you that is not necessarily something you can easily prepare for. Um, tell me what happened with Winnie's birth. 

[00:05:29] Bryony: Um, so I was very overdue with her. I was, um. I went past 42 weeks, um, and I had an amazing midwife, um, called Beth, who, if she listens to this, hello, she's great, and she really tried to, like, give me all the information.

She linked me to, like, Dr. Sarah Wickham and all this kind of stuff about inductions. So again, I was quite well informed, but I think I was just really nervous and so I let myself get pressured into accepting an induction at, like, 42 and 2, and then she was born at 42 and 4. Um, and it was just that kind of classic cascade of intervention.

And also, it was in the middle of COVID, so there was a lot of like, my husband couldn't be with me for a lot of it. And yeah, the birth itself was fine, really. It ended in like, one tooth. But it was just kind of, the, the doctors just didn't really kind of inform me of a lot. And it felt like it was all happening to me, rather than me being an active part of it.

So, so yeah, I, I found it to be quite traumatic and I think because of the Ventus, she definitely, when she was born, seemed to be, like her, her neck seemed to hurt her. So that definitely kind of affected things. 

[00:06:51] Emma Pickett: Do you remember that, that first feed, that early feed? 

[00:06:53] Bryony: Sort of. Um, I remember how she was, so she was born and they kind of laid her on me.

Um, so we had the skin to skin, and it was really lovely, like, we were just staring at each other for ages. Um, but I think I was a bit in shock, so my first instinct wasn't to breastfeed, and she wasn't kind of like rooting or anything like that, she was just kind of staring at me. So, I just didn't think about it initially, and then I remember maybe like an hour or so after she was born.

Someone kind of was a bit like, oh, are you going to feed her? And I was just like, oh yeah, yeah. Um, just hadn't really thought about it. And they tried to get her on me, but she just wouldn't really latch. She didn't want to like open her mouth very wide. She would kind of open her mouth a bit, but She wouldn't then start to suckle or anything like that.

She just kind of bobbed a bit and she just wasn't really interested in it. Um, or she'd start getting upset. So they then, um, someone was trying to help me to hand express. And I hadn't, I hadn't been able to like get any colostrum while I was pregnant. So. We were having a real hard time. I couldn't do it myself and I remember them doing it to me and it was so painful and she'd squeezed like the tiniest drops out and managed to syringe feed her.

So she got like a tiny bit then, but then when she was sort of four hours old, there was a student midwife and she suddenly said, um, well, she's not really had anything to eat. Do you want to give her some formula? And I was just a bit sort of like, oh, okay. Just, you know, she's a midwife. She probably knows best.

So I was like, oh, yeah, okay. And so she syringe fed her. I don't even know how much formula. And then, yeah, when I went, then got moved up to the postnatal ward. Suddenly, someone pulls back the curtain and is like, You gave her formula, but you want to breastfeed. Why have you given her formula? She's going to get hungry now.

[00:08:57] Emma Pickett: That was a member of, member of staff saying, I don't know who else I thought was going to be, wasn't exactly going to be your aunt or anybody, but Wow, so kind of cross with you for not following your intentions. And that's an interesting angle I've not heard before. Wow, how did that feel? 

[00:09:12] Bryony: Um, I think I just burst into tears because I just, I was so confused because obviously I'd had, the midwife had been the one to suggest the formula in the first place and I hadn't really wanted to, but I thought, oh, she's going to get hungry.

And then I was faced with someone telling me, well, she's, she didn't need it. She's going to get hungry now. So I just instantly felt like I'd failed. Like, I already, because of her birth, had kind of had that feeling of like failing at her birth. And so I was very emotional anyway. And then, yeah, that just made me go, Oh, she's only, what, five hours old at this point and I've failed her again.

And, um, yeah, I think I, I just cried. 

[00:09:53] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, you obviously were in a really vulnerable place anyway. And for someone to react like that, what an interesting choice. I mean, yikes. I mean, I don't know if they thought they were being supportive. I'm just curious as to, you're going to make her hungry by feeding her is an interesting way of phrasing things as well.

Yeah, I'm so sorry. That's a really, really rough start. You mentioned that your partner wasn't around much. You were completely on your own at this point, were you? 

[00:10:19] Bryony: He was with me when that happened because he was allowed to I think we were quite lucky in that she was born at like 4 or 5am and then they didn't transfer us to the postnatal ward till gone 12 at which point it was then visiting hours so he could stay.

So, he was still there at that point, but he had to go home every night at like 6pm, so I was alone most of the, apart from when I was actually in active labour, I was alone every day apart from like 12 till 

[00:10:48] Emma Pickett: 6. 

[00:10:50] Bryony: So, he was still there, but I don't really, maybe, 

[00:10:54] Emma Pickett: no, I think he was still there. So you're describing being in the hospital a while, the way you just described that, it made it sound like you were there for a while, how many days were you 

[00:11:00] Bryony: there?

I was there, so I went in on the Monday to start the induction, she was born early hours Wednesday morning, and then we went home Thursday afternoon I think, so I was there for sort of four days. 

[00:11:14] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you've got people sort of shouting at you, literally shouting at you, but you, you haven't described having any breastfeeding support yet.

I mean, I'm sorry about that painful hand expressing experience as well. That just sounds one more thing that was just stacking up against you in terms of your mental health and, and feeling in control. People are really doing things to you in this, at this point, aren't they, Bryony? What, did you get any breastfeeding support in that, on that first day?

I 

[00:11:38] Bryony: did on the ward, but it was that kind of classic, um, just them putting her on me, and kind of quite forcefully putting her on me. Um, so I found it quite stressful, and she just would cry, because I think her neck hurt, and she just, yeah, she just would cry every time, she didn't, she didn't want to do it.

So it was really hard, and I remember just thinking, how am I supposed to replicate this? Because I haven't got four pairs of arms. So they, the way they were kind of like putting her on me, I was just like, there's no way I can kind of do that myself. And I remember just thinking like, I'm not learning anything here.

And a few times they did manage to get her to latch for a bit and stay latched. Um, we had some success with kind of laying down, feeding. But yeah, I just, I remember just feeling like I wasn't actually learning anything. Um. And she was just getting really upset every time. It was really difficult to actually get her to latch.

And I also I'm not comfortable in hospitals anyway because I had, um, like an operation as a child that was like quite a horrible experience for me. So I think I was just very kind of panicked while I was there and all of that going on and then the birth as well. Yeah, it just didn't feel like we were getting anywhere, really.

[00:12:56] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think so many people would describe an experience in the UK post natally that's not great. And this is not about individual midwives being evil and bad people. This is about, you can just imagine the stressed environment of, Oh my God, that's that, that's that woman we haven't got to breastfeed yet.

And we've got to care for five other people who've had C sections and we're just dashing around from place to place and And it's very difficult to make breastfeeding work when there's an underlying cause and your gut feeling that was that it was something probably to do with delivery and recovering from the von Toos.

Are you able to get expressing at this point? Are you getting any more luck with hand expressing or expressing? 

[00:13:33] Bryony: I don't think I was hand expressing. I think I tried a few times but it hit a painful the first time that it kind of put me off and, and so I was a bit reluctant to do it again. Um, but I did, um, so, Lucy Lowe, who you've had on before, she was on the ward that day.

So, she was the one person who was actually really helpful. Um, so she got me, um, like a pump, and so she got me to, to use that to kind of try and stimulate things. Um, and she also was one of the only people that actually sat down with me and gave me a list of info, like some information where I could get support and things like that.

I just kind of talked me through it all a bit because I was just so overwhelmed with everything going on and anytime someone came to see me I just kept bursting into tears. Um, so yeah, she was probably the first person. Who actually made me go, okay, maybe we can do this, like, maybe we 

[00:14:32] Emma Pickett: can figure it out.

You were starting expressing, how was that expressing going? 

[00:14:36] Bryony: Um, I wasn't, I mean, I wasn't getting anything, but she did explain how it was just good to stimulate the breast. And, yeah, she, she was really helpful. And then I think, like, the next, the following morning, um, I overheard them talking about me. Uh, and they were, they were like, oh, Bed nine, whatever.

Lucy actually remembered what bed I was in the other day. I was talking about it. Um, but they were like, oh, bed nine, whatever. Um, she can't go home until breastfeeding is established. And I just panicked because yeah, I'd been so, so overwhelmed and just, it was like so hot and just didn't feel like we were really getting anywhere with anything.

And I think in my head, I just thought I'm going to be here for forever. So I said, okay, um, I'll combi feed because I want to go home. So then Lucy again, sort of sat me down. She showed me how to, um, paste feed bottle and kind of talked me through about. Like a, almost like triple feeding. I don't think she told me that's what it was, but she kind of said about, you know, trying to feed her first and then, uh, pumping afterwards and topping up with the, with the formula or any milk that I could express.

And yeah, also kind of talked me through about, uh, not letting her go like more than three hours without a feed because I had no idea about that. I got in trouble because I let her sleep for five hours in the hospital. So. Okay. Cool. Because my antenatal class said feed responsibly, um, and yeah, I was just, when they came through and they were like, well, she's been asleep a long time.

She needs to eat. I was like, what do you mean? 

[00:16:18] Emma Pickett: Yeah, it's gosh, it's difficult to get that message right, isn't it? There's so much emphasis on responsive feeding. And we need that little paragraph that says no, we don't responsibly feed with really little babies. Um, yeah, we need to make sure we're nudging them along, especially if they've had a difficult birth.

That's tough. 

[00:16:34] Bryony: Yeah. So that was another thing that just made me think like, I'd have no idea what I'm doing. Um, but yeah, she, she like very broke it all down for me. It was very helpful. Um, and in a way that didn't make me feel bad. Uh, unlike some of the other people. Yeah, she showed me how to combi feed. We left combi feeding and then went home.

I think it was that afternoon. So it was like the day after she was born. And then, because I think I just thought, if I'm at home and I'm relaxed, that We would have a better time up there, but we didn't initially she, I think when we first got home, she just didn't want to latch at all. She just wasn't interested.

Um, and so she was mostly having formula at that point. I had ordered a pump, uh, and I was hand expressing as much as I could. Obviously it takes, just takes ages. So I was probably only getting like a few mil per feed. Yeah. She was just having mostly formula. She barely lost any weight cause I was so panicked about her losing weight that I think I was probably, even though I was pace feeding, I think I was probably still managing to overfeed her.

And yeah, I think it was like her day three appointment when they weighed her I kind of said. That in the hospital, someone had said about possibly her having a tongue tie and they said, okay, we'll refer you for a tongue tie appointment. Um, and they also said, you know, maybe try nipple shields if she's not thatching at all.

But again, there was no further support than that. It was just try nipple shields. Um, so my sister in law actually had a pair that she'd never used. So she brought them round for me. No idea if they were the right size or anything like that, but I tried them and she actually did latch then and we had like a half hour feed.

Um, I just remember thinking, Oh, okay. Magical. Yeah, it was, it was really lovely to be able to feed her properly for the first time. Yeah, I think that was like day three by that point. 

[00:18:39] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, that's a good example of what nipple shields can do, especially if you haven't got the support around you that you need.

Nipple shields can really help kind of turn things around and mentally turn things around for you as well. You mentioned the tongue tie procedure. Did you, how quickly did that appointment come through? 

[00:18:58] Bryony: Really quick. The, we went to the appointment when she was a week old, um, or maybe like a week and a day, something like that.

But they, uh, they didn't watch her feed. They asked how much formula I was giving her, which at that point, it was quite a lot. She was probably still mostly formula, a little bit of expressed milk, um, but not, still not having a huge amount at the breast. And then they looked in her mouth and they said she doesn't have a tongue tie.

And the midwife that had referred us for the appointment had also put in a request for me to see the infant feeding team. But the person who saw us at the tongue tie clinic said, I'm going to cancel your referral to the feeding team because all they're going to do is they're going to tell you to pump eight times a day.

So just do that and then you'll be fine. And I went, OK. 

[00:19:50] Emma Pickett: OK. And was that the last time you had a conversation with anyone about tongue tie? 

[00:19:54] Bryony: Yeah, but not, not, not until I saw Lucy privately when she was eight weeks, that was the last time. Yeah. And then eventually we got re referred and discovered she did have a tongue tie.

[00:20:07] Emma Pickett: Okay. Deep sigh. Okay. So, so that first appointment, gosh, that is disappointing. That was an official NHS referral and you were told not an issue and then, um, then you had to pay to get that, that re referral happening. Um, and then you had the procedure done at that point, did you, at eight weeks? She 

[00:20:29] Bryony: was 

[00:20:29] Emma Pickett: 11 

[00:20:29] Bryony: weeks by 

[00:20:30] Emma Pickett: the time it 

[00:20:30] Bryony: was done.

[00:20:31] Emma Pickett: Okay, yeah. Gosh, that's a long time to hang on. And, and all that time she was, was feeding with a shield, was she? But were you able to get her off the shields? 

[00:20:42] Bryony: I got her off the shields at six weeks. Um, and we were feeding Yeah, I was then feeding her mostly from the breast by that point. Um, but with, I'd, I'd got rid of the formula top ups.

I was pumping enough that she could have breast, like just breast milk top ups. But it wasn't super painful, even though she had the tongue tie. One side was quite sore, and I would get like the classic lipstick shape. But for the most part, it was actually fairly comfortable. It was, it was sort of like, grit your teeth when she first latched on, but then it would be alright.

[00:21:16] Emma Pickett: I'm not sure I want anyone to be gritting weeks though, Bryony, that doesn't sound, doesn't sound ideal. That's a, that's a long time and just in terms of your mental health, I mean, how were you feeling at that point? What was going on for you mentally? 

[00:21:28] Bryony: I, I didn't feel too bad to be honest. I did struggle with the triple feeding, especially initially before I saw Lucy privately at eight weeks.

I just had no idea what I was doing. Um, it was like, just at the end of like lockdown. So there was no breastfeeding groups open at the time. So I was just kind of like, Blindly triple feeding, not knowing that I was triple feeding. Yeah, that was tricky. I don't think she was quite having enough top ups either because I just had nothing to go off.

And obviously, yeah, having to set an alarm because I was told, you know, don't let her go longer than about three hours in the daytime, no longer than four at night because she wasn't gaining enough weight. Yeah, I remember like, it would take me at least an hour and a half to feed her, pump, top up in the night, and then I would, and then wash everything up.

Um, because I didn't know that I didn't have to do that every time and then I would like get into bed and I'd have to set an alarm for about an hour and a half later to then wake up and start it all over again. 

[00:22:30] Emma Pickett: Crikey. 

[00:22:31] Bryony: And then even during the day it would be kind of, you'd, it would be about an hour and a half, maybe two hours of doing that because it's hard when you're on your own because my husband was back at work.

And then, yeah, I'd just have to start it all over again half an hour, hour later. And it did make me feel like I couldn't go anywhere, and I couldn't do anything, so I, it was, it was strange because I, looking back, I think I was quite down about it, but at the same time, I just really wanted to do it, so, because people kept saying to me, you don't have to do this, you, you know, you're kind of killing yourself doing this, but I just felt so strongly that I, I still really felt like I'd failed during her birth, even though I know now, you know.

I did definitely didn't and in my head I just kept thinking like I cannot fail at this even though even if I hadn't done it I know like to anyone else I'd say like that's not a failure to stop there But in my head it was just like no I have to do this So so yeah, I was sort of like equally determined and just also just yeah It was really really hard poor Lucy got so many emails from me just being like I can't do it anymore And then they're like, no, I'm going to keep going.

[00:23:48] Emma Pickett: Oh gosh, I can hear that inner battle going on. Yeah. And then you mentioned that cow's milk protein allergy was part of the story as well. Tell me when that started being talked about. Um, 

[00:23:57] Bryony: so, so yeah, so after sort of seeing Lucy at eight weeks and then the tongue tie got sorted, uh, once her tongue tie was done, we were then able to slowly reduce the top ups.

Um, But, but through all of that, she never ever gained more than about 25 grams a day. She, she just kind of, she just seemed to like plateau there. And it was Lucy who said, do you think maybe, like, does she have any of these symptoms of allergy? And I had noticed, a lot of them, I'd noticed that she had like quite mucousy poos.

I'd noticed that she would be sick, uh, she had like worse reflux, you know, whenever she had had a formula top up, or if I ate something that was quite bad. A lot of dairy. So I had kind of noticed that, but then I had, you know, read that some of that was just kind of normal anyway, so I hadn't put it together.

And I think the day after Lucy mentioned it, I was looking in her nappy and noticed like tiny, tiny little bits of blood in her, in her poo. And then I thought, ah, all right, okay. So then, um, gave up, uh, dairy. I did get some like of the hydrolyzed formula from the doctor just because I think at the when I first gave it up she was still having a few for a few top ups and mostly I was pumping enough to to cover that but because I had high lipase it would kind of go off after about 12 hours and she wouldn't have it once the horrible taste had started.

[00:25:36] Emma Pickett: For anyone who doesn't know about high lipase, but for anyone who doesn't know about that Tell us what that is. Tell us what that experience was. 

[00:25:44] Bryony: Um, so I think it's, it's something to do with the fats in your milk as far as I could understand. But essentially It depends on the person, but for me, after my fridge, after my milk had been in the fridge for about 12 hours, it would smell absolutely foul.

It would smell like soap, um, and it tasted disgusting. So you've got high levels of the lipase enzyme, 

[00:26:07] Emma Pickett: essentially. Yeah. Yeah, that's, I mean, there's different theories as to what might be going on there, but that is definitely one of the theories is that some milk just doesn't store for some reason, and babies don't want that stored milk.

And that can be a bit of a horrible shock if you've got a whole freezer full of it and you've been pumping for a long time. Um, yeah, sorry you had that on top of everything else. Blimey, you really have ticked every single box, Briony. Every single possible thing that could be tough you've gone through.

[00:26:32] Bryony: Yeah. 

[00:26:33] Emma Pickett: How did you find doing the dairy elimination? What was that experience like for you? 

[00:26:37] Bryony: That was fine. I used to be vegan, so it didn't really phase me. Um, so I was quite happy to do it. We did also quickly realise that she probably had an allergy to soya as well, because, um, I think I ate like a soya sausage and then we had like All these gross poos the next day.

So I was like, okay. So then I had to give up, the soya was harder than the milk because obviously I was, uh, I was veggie at the time, but not vegan. So I essentially went vegan and then also had to give up soya. And that's in everything. Uh, so that, that was tricky, but yeah, that didn't really phase me to be honest.

It was, it was worth it because I just, and at that point we'd been going so long trying to get this sorted that I was just like, right, it was so close. Um, so, so yeah, that, that was fine, to be honest. 

[00:27:28] Emma Pickett: Okay, so, four months of all this triple feeding and just so much happening, and then when did you start to wind down the pumping?

And how did that feel to kind of let go of that? Was that a bit scary? 

[00:27:42] Bryony: Um, it was a little bit, because then it was like, okay, I have to fully trust my body. But also I was so fed up of it that I was really glad to see the back of it. Um, because a few people were like, oh, will you keep pumping to let, you know, my husband give her a bottle occasionally?

And I was just like, no. I'm never touching that pump again. Um, but yeah, it was, I think because it did happen really gradually and she was the one that kind of like led that so we would obviously pace feed any bottles that we gave her and she just started refusing them and she was having less and less and I was kind of pumping less and less so I assumed she was taking more from me.

Yeah, it did just seem to sort of happen quite naturally, which was, which was nice. And then it felt like a novelty to just be able to breastfeed. It was like, gosh, after all this time back, wow. Yeah, gosh, that must have been amazing. And it was like, I can go out and not worry about missing a pump. And yeah, it was, it was really lovely actually.

And um, when I first got pregnant, my initial thought was like, Oh, I'll breastfeed for six months. And then I'll stop because that just seemed like what everyone did because I thought I'd had to go to back to, I thought I had to go back to work at that time. But then when we got to four months and I'd only just cracked it, I was like, well, I'm not giving up in two months.

I've only just, I've only just got there. 

[00:29:06] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that definitely sounds like a familiar story. You've earned the right to keep going, damn it. And then you definitely did keep going because you got pregnant again with Stanley. And so how old was Winnie when you? 

[00:29:19] Bryony: She was just, just turned two, I think, like two in a couple of months.

So, 

[00:29:23] Emma Pickett: yeah. Yeah. So you absolutely did keep going. That's certainly not someone stopping at six months. And, and when you got pregnant, how did you feel about the fact that you were tandem feeding? Do you remember going through any thought processes around that? How did you make the decision to carry on? 

[00:29:37] Bryony: I would say it wasn't really a decision.

Um, I think even at the point I got pregnant, Tandem feeding sounded like my worst nightmare. Um, I kind of thought, Oh my god, I'm going to be really touched out. But then, She was just, Winnie was so Attached to breastfeeding. She loved it. And I didn't feel like I wanted to stop, so I just kind of thought, okay, we'll see how we go.

Um, I think I, I think I was listening to one of your podcast episodes as well where you said something that really struck with me about how not making a decision based on what might happen in the future, and that kind of made me go, yeah, that's a really good point, you know, maybe I'll be touched out, but maybe I won't be so.

Let's just take it a day at a time. So yeah, so initially, I didn't plan to tandem feed, but I think as it went on and as I got more and more pregnant, I realised Winnie wasn't gonna, because I sort of thought, oh, she might self wean anyway, like some do in pregnancy, but she clearly wasn't gonna do that. So yeah, I just thought, well, we're going to give this a go.

We're going to, we're going to see how it pans out.

[00:30:56] Emma Pickett: A little advert, just to say that you can buy my four books online. You've Got It In You, A Positive Guide To Breastfeeding is 99p as an ebook, and that's aimed at expectant and new parents. The breast book published by Pintra and Martin is a guide for 9 to 14 year olds and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts which I think is very much needed.

And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding. For a 10 percent discount on the last two Go to Jessica Kingsley Press, that's uk. jkp. com and use the code MMPE10, makes milk, pick it Emma, 10. So let's talk a little bit more about feeding in pregnancy.

Did you experience any sort of nipple sensitivity and pain? What was that like for you? 

[00:31:50] Bryony: Yeah, um, that was the first thing that made me think I might be pregnant because, like, from the get go it just suddenly was really painful to feed her. It felt like someone was rubbing glass on my nipples, it was horrible.

I think partly it was down to, she's never had a particularly good latch. It's always been a little bit shallow. So I, she was at least at that age where I could kind of be like, tip your head back and open your mouth wider, but she would just slip back to it being shallow again. But I kind of was like, I'd heard that it got better, so I was holding on for that.

But I wouldn't say it ever really did. 

[00:32:28] Emma Pickett: I was gonna say, I don't know who told you, if you start with nipple sensitivity it can, it can fluctuate, but if you're very, very sensitive in early pregnancy it probably isn't going to go entirely. Gosh, I mean hearing you say it was like glass, and then hearing you say, and I kept going for another nine months, I mean that's pretty amazing.

I mean that is a determined woman who absolutely didn't want to put Briony, I'm sorry, didn't want to put Winnie through weaning when she wasn't ready to wean. I mean, that's pretty amazing. I mean, did you have to shorten the feeds? I mean, what did you do to cope with those difficult feeds? 

[00:33:01] Bryony: Um, initially I did night wean her, I think in the first trimester because she had started to, I think from about 4am she just wanted to be latched the whole time and I couldn't sleep through it anymore.

Um, and it was just so painful that I thought, right, let's, let's night wean and then at least that kind of makes it a bit easier. Which, I was fully prepared for it to be like a few nights of, you know, really having to hold that boundary. Um, I did, you know, I bought a book, um, to kind of introduce the idea and, and she surprised me because she just wasn't phased at all.

She was just like, okay. Um, and I, she would wake up in the night and I would just give her a cuddle instead or offer her some water and she would just go back to sleep. Um, and we had maybe one or two occasions where she got a bit upset about it, but we, I just kind of reminded her that she could have milk in the morning and gave her a cuddle and she just went back to sleep and yeah, it was surprisingly easy.

Um, which considering how attached to it she was, I was, I felt very lucky. 

[00:34:08] Emma Pickett: Yeah, you have to say you deserve that, right? That's one thing which goes more easily than you're expecting. I think that's something you're entitled to. So, she was still feeding in the day at that point, through your pregnancy. 

[00:34:19] Bryony: Yeah, um, just, I think just before, just before, just after she turned two, I had, she had been feeding whenever she wanted, pretty much like when we were together.

But I'd started to be a bit, kind of like, touched out by it. So, I had cut her down to morning, naptime, bedtime, and then just through the night. So she was just having the three day feeds once a night were in to her. 

[00:34:41] Emma Pickett: Okay. And tell me about some of the conversations you had with her about, you know, when baby comes.

How did you talk to her about, um, sort of arrival of baby and what breastfeeding would be like? Did you have set any expectations at that point or were you just kind of keeping things open? 

[00:34:56] Bryony: I did talk to her about, we bought a few books and things about kind of a new baby coming and I talked to her about how babies can only have milk and how she can eat other foods so that, you know, baby would need to feed a lot and she, you know, would kind of have to come second.

So I kind of prepared her, we talked about her needing to share the milk with the baby. And she was really excited about that. She was always kind of like, she just would kind of come up and be like, I'm gonna share my milk with the baby. And, yeah, she was very excited to be a big sister, so. She was quite happy with all of that, which I, I was a bit kind of dubious.

I thought she might change her tune once the baby actually arrived, but, um, but yeah, she was very on board with, with sharing and she understood that, that, yeah, that's baby needs to have only milk. Um, so there'll be feeding a lot and you're still just going to have your three a day or whatever. But then by the time, uh, he was born, I had reduced her just to the evening feed anyway, so.

So yeah, it, it kind of, we'd had to start winding down a bit more because of the aversion. 

[00:36:09] Emma Pickett: Yeah, sorry, I'm so sorry you experienced aversion in pregnancy. When I did a survey a few months ago about pregnancy and breastfeeding, so many people shared that experience of aversion in pregnancy. It's not universal, but it is surprisingly common, and it's so hard, and I'm really sorry you had that.

Do you remember when it first started? I 

[00:36:27] Bryony: think it was sort of close to around the third trimester, maybe a little bit before. Initially, it wasn't every feed and it was maybe like 20 minutes into a feed I would start to get a bit like, just had this sort of feeling. It was strange though, because yeah, it would just suddenly be like, I remember often thinking, like, I just wanted to, like, shove her off me.

A lot of the time it would be, uh, the night time feed. And I remember I would have this kind of, like, this image in my brain, because we would feed on her bed, which was by a window, and I'd be, like, imagining throwing her out of the window and running out of the room and stuff like that. And it was quite alarming to, like, have that kind of thought about your own child that you obviously do love very much.

But because I had trained as a peer supporter, I was aware of what aversion was, so I knew that's what it was, but it was still a bit kind of like, Oh, why, you know, why am I feeling like this? Yeah, it doesn't feel good to feel that way. It's, it's horrible, really. 

[00:37:34] Emma Pickett: Yeah, no, no, absolutely. I can hear how frightening it is to have those kind of images in your mind, and something that previously was so special, and is still special for your child, you know, gives you, gives you that feeling, it's a sort of sense of betrayal on top of everything.

But you still didn't come close to thinking, no, I need to fully wean. There was something in you that wanted to carry on. What was that motivation? 

[00:37:54] Bryony: Yeah, I mean, initially, I think because it came on quite gradually, it wasn't just like, Full on, straight away. I guess, I don't know if it's almost like I was a frog boiling in a pot or something, where I didn't kind of notice how bad it was until it was really bad.

I think as well, the closer we got to the baby being born, the more I just didn't want to take that away from her at such a time of change. I'd read a lot of people had said that their aversion went away once the baby was born as well, so I was kind of holding on thinking, well maybe once the baby's born, it, it will go.

And, and yeah, I did, I did wind down, so we were just having the evening feed by the end of my pregnancy. And I was limiting feeds to, I think, ten minutes. So, so yeah, I was just kind of using as many tools as I could to, to kind of minimise it. I tried loads of stuff. I, I had a birth comb, uh, for the, for the birth, and I was like trying holding that to see if that would kind of distract me enough to Oh, I don't 

[00:38:53] Emma Pickett: know what a birth comb is.

What's a birth comb? I 

[00:38:55] Bryony: don't know. Um, so it's, it's like a acupressure thing. So it's literally just a wooden comb and you hold it in your palm and you squeeze it when you, um, have a contraction. And the idea is that it, um, takes your, your, your brain focuses on that sensation rather than contractions. So, I kind of thought, oh, I'd bought one in preparation for labour, and I kind of thought, oh, maybe the same thing will apply with a version, maybe I can focus on that sensation rather than her feeding.

Um, but it didn't work. , 

[00:39:29] Emma Pickett: what else? Did you try this, uh, that, no. So in terms of breastfeeding aversion and agitation, I often sign posts to Zain, Abby Yates book and, and her work. And there are some really practical suggestions in that book. Did you, what are some of the things that you, you had a go at doing?

I 

[00:39:45] Bryony: tried, uh, taking magnesium, um, which I don't really know if that helped or not. I tried, I'm trying to remember now. Um. I think mostly I found what actually worked for me was, I noticed it was always worse if I was quite stressed about anything, so I just tried to kind of, as much as you can when you're a parent of a young child, keep on top of that.

And yeah, and tried to make sure I was as well rested as I could be, because that seemed to kind of help a little bit. I tried to make sure, and I think as well, I started to, because I used to just try and like, grit my teeth and and get through it. And then I just realized, no, it's much better once it actually starts to take hold in doing, you know, in a feed, it's much better to just be like, right, no, we have to stop the feed now because I think she started to notice that I was getting tense and gritting my teeth and, and not enjoying it.

So tough. So 

[00:40:45] Emma Pickett: hard. Yeah. I mean, I mean, people talk about B vitamins and. B six, B12 rather. I dunno if that's something you tried and at the end of the day, if you're struggling to the point you have to end a feed, you know, it's hard to imagine that supplements would make such a dramatic difference. Yeah, yeah.

I mean that idea of her, about her looking up and looking at your face and noticing you're struggling, that's so hard, isn't it? I can, yeah. I mean, she's old enough. Presumably you could talk about it, or was it difficult to know how to explain it? 

[00:41:11] Bryony: Yeah, I was, I found it hard to talk about because I wanted to be honest with her, but at the same time.

I didn't want her to feel bad because it's sort of like how do you say, how do you kind of explain, I'm having these horrible feelings about you, but it's, it's not actually about you. So I kind of just explained it as I'm feed, like it doesn't feel good for me anymore. Um, it's, I'd said it feels sore and that I think I said, you know, my body's getting tired and yes, a few times she had noticed me really kind of grimacing and she had ended the feed herself.

And, and got quite upset because she could see that I was struggling. So then I decided, okay, I'm just going to start stopping the feed as soon as it gets to that, you know, to that point. And then we would just cuddle to sleep, um, from then instead. And that was a lot better because Yeah, she wasn't kind of then, sometimes she would get upset when I finished the feed, but I just thought at least she's not seeing me kind of, you know, looking up and seeing me all tense and, and, and feeling really, really agitated by it because I didn't want that to be like her last memories of breastfeeding if we did end up stopping.

So, um, yeah, that's what we did. 

[00:42:26] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I'm really sorry that you were in that place. And then Stanley was born. How was that birth in comparison to Winnie's birth? 

[00:42:34] Bryony: It was the complete opposite. It was lovely. I had him at home and yeah, it was just, I again, went really overdue. Um, he came earlier than Winnie though.

So it was only, he came at 41 and five, but yeah, it was spontaneous labor in the pool, really supportive midwife who was very, very lovely. I mean, she only arrived about an hour before he was born. So it was all, it was all quite quick, but it was really, really lovely birth. 

[00:43:04] Emma Pickett: What time of day was it and where was Winnie?

[00:43:07] Bryony: Um, it was literally middle of the day, 12. 30. She had been with me, um, up until about 10am. And then my mum, my mum had come over at 8 in the morning. Because I was, every time I had a contraction, she was getting quite emotional. And I had wanted her to be there if she wanted to be. But I was finding it very distracting with her kind of getting emotional and I didn't feel like I could kind of really support her while I was having contractions.

So my mum had come over and taken her to the park and then she had then taken her to her house so she, she was at my mum's. And yeah, my, my husband only got home at, I think like half 10 and then he was born at half 12. 

[00:43:54] Emma Pickett: Gosh. So, do you remember the first time that Winnie, Winnie saw Stanley? What was that first meeting like?

She presumably walked in the door with your mum, having brought her bag. 

[00:44:04] Bryony: Yeah, so my mum brought her back, um, a bit later in the day and yeah, she, she'd already seen him in a video call, um, just after he was born where she said that he was beautiful and then she was just so excited to meet him. She wanted to hold him straight away and yeah, she, I've got this lovely photo of her just Beaming.

She looks like the proudest big sister. She was so excited to meet him. Um, yeah, it was really lovely. Oh, that's super 

[00:44:36] Emma Pickett: sweet. Um, and then you were presumably breastfeeding Stanley in front of Winnie straight away. How was her response to that? What was going on for her emotionally when you were talking about breastfeeding Stanley?

[00:44:47] Bryony: She was, she was fine with it actually. I remember sort of thinking she might struggle, but she was just really interested. Um, I had, I again had issues with him latching. So it was all quite stressful in the beginning with him, um, and yeah, she, she was actually really supportive and she would kind of be like, next to me going, you need to open up your mouth, baby.

Um, and all this kind of stuff. So. Yeah, she, she did. She was kind of a bit like, Oh, can I have some too? But yeah, mostly she just kind of enjoyed, she was interested. She liked to watch and, and yeah, look at, look at what was going on and give me tips. 

[00:45:32] Emma Pickett: And your plan was to continue feeding her just in the evenings.

Is that what you wanted to do? Or were you open to maybe feeding a bit more? How, what were you thinking about her breastfeeding patterns? 

[00:45:43] Bryony: Um, my plan was to just continue the evenings. I was sort of open to maybe feeding her a little bit more if the aversion eased off. And I think in the early days, like when my milk first came in and I, you know, sometimes you're just really engorged and he, I'm just kind of trying to feed him and he wasn't really having very much.

A few times I was like, oh Winnie, can you, can you help? And, and she would have a little feed here and there. But, yeah, I very quickly realised that the aversion wasn't going anywhere. That it was still very much there. So I had to kind of She, she was very upset because it obviously was a bit confusing for her because she had been allowed to have some milk in the day again.

And then I was sort of went back to, no, just bedtime. So we had to kind of reinforce that boundary again. 

[00:46:33] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I'm so sorry. I mean, as you touched on earlier, some people have aversion just in pregnancy and the minute the baby's gone, it disappears entirely for all nurselings. But sadly not the case for you, but you didn't have the aversion when Stanley was feeding?

[00:46:49] Bryony: No, didn't have aversion with him. Um, it was yeah, just a Winnie, which is really strange because I, I didn't often feed them together at the same time. But when I did, it was really odd because it, it was almost like having him on kind of helped with her aversion a little bit because I, it wasn't the only thing I was focusing on.

But I also had this sort of weird, almost fear, that, and looking back I think this sounds ridiculous, but I had this fear almost that if, if I fed them too much at the same time, that the aversion I felt with her would somehow infect how I felt when feeding him. So, I kind of wish I had fed them more at the same time because they both really loved doing it and they would hold hands and stuff like that and it was lovely.

Yeah, I was always a bit afraid of my brain getting like, confused between the two. So I didn't do it as much as I kind of, looking back, wish I had. 

[00:47:49] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I think that's a really natural reaction though. I mean that, that word infect is a very vivid word. I mean that, you know, contaminate or infect. I mean, I can really imagine what you're thinking and, and how frightening that would be if one day you fed Stanley by himself and you weren't enjoying that either.

So I can, I think that, that sounds really logical. I think you should be a bit kinder to yourself. I think, you know, there was something instinctively that felt a risk and, and you were wanting to protect Stanley from that, which makes sense. But I'm guessing it must be quite tough when it's early days of new baby and you want to emotionally support Winnie and you're saying, Oh, sorry, you're not going to be able to breastfeed in the way you thought you were.

I mean, how did you manage to kind of support her emotionally through that? 

[00:48:30] Bryony: Um, lots of cuddles, lots of, um, we had like a lot of books that she really, she loves a book. So I would just kind of. Sit with her and read a book to her. 'cause that was something I could do while I fed and just kind of validated her emotions as much as I could.

She was pretty good at about it, to be fair. I, I thought it was gonna be worse than it was, but yeah, just kind of validating and, and reminding her that, you know, he, he can only have milk and she can have other foods and stuff like that. 

[00:49:03] Emma Pickett: Yeah, 

[00:49:04] Bryony: she, that's all you could do really, just validate it, I suppose.

[00:49:08] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah, I mean that's a word I, I say a lot, validation, and making her realise that you understand that it's difficult for her too, that's, that's really important. And, I mean, you use, you use the word failure when you talked about your first birth experience. And I'm hoping that you were kind to yourself in this phase and didn't feel that you were letting people down.

I mean, how, how are you feeling emotionally about, about that process? 

[00:49:35] Bryony: Yeah, I did feel, it was sort of mixed emotion. So I did feel a bit, I think I did berate myself a little bit because I felt a bit guilty that, you know, I was the one that decided to get pregnant and then it was because of this pregnancy that I got the aversion.

And I think that was partly why I did keep going for so long because I, I kept thinking it's not her fault that I made these decisions and if I hadn't got pregnant, then, you know, I may not have started to get this aversion and we would still be happily feeding and because she's, yeah, still really was still very attached to it.

Yeah, I think that is why I kept going for quite a long time with the aversion because I just kept thinking, I can't do this to her right now. Um, and then when Stanley was born, I just sort of thought, you know, she's had this huge change. This is something that's really helping her to kind of adjust to it and to cope with the change and helping her to bond with him.

So, it was a bit of guilt, but also it was kind of a little bit of motivation to keep going. But I didn't feel, I didn't feel too, like, I didn't feel like a failure or anything like that. I think it was mostly just a bit kind of, yeah, just a bit of mum guilt for, for uprooting her life like that. Yeah. 

[00:50:58] Emma Pickett: I think everybody I've ever met who gets pregnant the second time.

feels a sense of guilt that you're, you know, turning your child's life upside down, even though your logical brain knows that the gift of a sibling is so special and particularly for Winnie with her lovely big grin. She was obviously very excited about being a big sister, but I think there's always part of us that thinks, Oh, but there's a, there's a bit of loss here for you as well.

And our relationship might change and you know, your needs won't be met straight away. And it's, I think it's so natural to have, to have that feeling of guilt. How, how long did you carry on feeding Winnie after Stanley was born? Five months. So you carried on for five months with aversion, every single time you fed her.

Wow. So every single day, every single time you fed her, there was, there was aversion. And when, and you mentioned during pregnancy that you, she'd looked up at your face and seen that you were going through that. Did you find new ways to not let that happen? I mean, what strategies were you using? 

[00:51:56] Bryony: I did find that after he was born, it, it wasn't as intense initially, um, and I wasn't getting it every day, so some days were better than others, so I kind of held on to that, because on the day, on the days where it was bad, I would just end the feed quite quickly, and we would just cuddle to sleep instead, and then on the days where it was good, I just enjoyed it, and I was like, okay, this is great.

I think when he was like four weeks old, I did buy, um, is it the Boobie Moon with Two book? Because I, it was really bad for a little while and I was like, I can't do this anymore. I'm gonna have to wean her. And then I read it and I burst into tears and I was like, I can't wean her. I'm not ready. Um, so I'd had that book sort of ready to go for when I did want to do it.

And yeah, for, for a few months I was like, you know what? It's manageable. It's, you know, we're having some good days and some bad days and, um, yeah, I was just taking it a day by day. And then, yeah, it just started to get worse again, and, uh, and then I just very slowly start, I, I, I think in my head I'd kind of thought, like, I'm not fully ready to commit to weaning yet, but I'm gonna start, I'm gonna start the process of, like, slowing it down, so, Her night time feed would be kind of, I'd used to aim to get to ten minutes, and luckily she can't tell the time, so if it was really bad, I'd tell her it'd been ten minutes when it'd been, like, five.

But I then started cutting it down by like a few minutes every like week or so. So it was there eight minutes and then six minutes and um, and then yeah, I think at some point, um, I just suddenly was, was the thought of weaning her, didn't upset me anymore. It made me feel relieved almost. And I just thought actually.

It would be really nice to put her to bed and not have this feeling. It felt like it was kind of affecting our relationship a bit. And I just wanted to be able to connect with her at bedtime again, instead of feeling like I was, you know, waiting my four minutes or whatever, and then getting to connect with her.

So, so yeah, I kind of set, I think I realized that on the day that she would be exactly three years, five months, it was going to be a full moon. And it all just seemed to kind of fall into place, like it just seemed, and it, and that was about three weeks away. So I thought, okay, that gives me three weeks to read the, the Boobie Moon with Two book to her, um, get her, you know, get her head around the idea a little bit.

And, and yeah, and that seems like a good time to stop it. Not three years, five months, sorry. She was three years, three months. And yeah, I was like, that's a nice, I like round numbers. So it just, it just seemed right. 

[00:54:46] Emma Pickett: So you were cutting the length of the feed shorter and shorter. Was she falling asleep on the breast at this point or you'd been taking her off and cuddling her after that for quite a while?

So, 

[00:54:55] Bryony: yeah, so yeah, she wasn't, she wasn't falling asleep. She, I mean, if sometimes if she was really, really tired, she would, but, um, most of the time, no. She was just having, you know, her four minutes or so on the breast and then she would come off and then we would, um, I started this because I, I started to introduce the, uh, the kind of Lindsay hookway idea of, um, Habit stacking because I was aware that she having been fed to sleep for three years, that she might need some other support.

So I started to do this thing called making pizza on her back where I would just pretend I was like rolling out dough and sprinkling cheese and stuff like that. And she really liked that for some reason. So she just had would have her little massage or sometimes I'd give her like a little head or face massage and, um, and then we'd just cuddle and she'd go to sleep like that, which I found amazing having.

I, because there was a point where I thought she's never ever going to go to sleep without the breast. So yeah, it was kind of nice for me to be like, she can do it. 

[00:55:55] Emma Pickett: And then when you got down to, you know, a certain number of minutes, did you just say to her, right, my love from tomorrow, there's no milk. How did, how did you do that final final step?

[00:56:03] Bryony: So when I decided we were going to wean at, at the three year, three month mark, um, I had three weeks until then, so I started reading her this book that I'd found called Boobie Moon with Two. Um, and we would read it every night before bed and it talked about a tandem fed, a tandem fed toddler and then the, the moon, having to send their milk back to the moon.

Um, but the baby's milk's still staying, which I really liked because it kind of explained why I was still able to feed Stanley. So we would read that, um, together and sometimes she would get a bit upset and we kind of talked about how she was going to have this special day and then we were going to send the moon, send the milk back to the moon.

And yeah, we just kind of read it every night and she kind of got her head around it. And the few days before I was kind of like, okay. A few more nights, and then we're sending milk back to the moon. And I think it was a bit abstract for her at first, but we made it like a really nice day for her. On the last day.

We, um, for some reason my husband had the day off anyway, so we, we took her to a maze maze. We, um, we let her, we bought her loads of treats and um, did like a bunch of her favorite things. We, we had cake at the end of the day and we lit candles and we sang. Happy Booby Day to you. And then we went outside and we, um, we blew bubbles to the moon.

Um, couldn't actually see the moon? 

[00:57:32] Emma Pickett: That's the crucial question. Was the moon visible? 

[00:57:34] Bryony: No, it was so cloudy. Oh no. But I was like, I can't wait. I can't wait. It's roughly 

[00:57:40] Emma Pickett: there. Roughly in that direction. Let's pretend it's there. 

[00:57:43] Bryony: And it was, um, August as well. So it was still daylight. Um, but, but yeah, so I said, I said the moon is up there.

Yeah. And yeah, my husband filmed it as well. And then we came inside and we had one last feed. And I asked her, Do you want to have a feed just on your own? Or do you want to have the feed with Stanley? And she said she wanted to feed with Stanley. So, I have a few lovely photos of them holding hands and kind of gazing at each other while they fed.

Um, and she actually ended the feed before I did, which was nice. And then we went up to bed, um, and yeah, she just, we just cuddled and she went off to sleep. That's so sweet. 

[00:58:23] Emma Pickett: I love the idea that her last request was that tandem feed. That's really so special. And how did you feel knowing that was her very last feed?

You talked before about you thought you'd be relieved, you feeling like, woohoo, I've got here, or was there anything that was a bit more complex than that? It 

[00:58:38] Bryony: was definitely mixed emotions. There was an element of relief and just like, okay, it's done. I don't have to worry about it anymore. Um, but there was some sadness as well because I had really hoped to let her self wean.

Um, And a lot of people, when I kind of talk about it, go, Oh, but she fed, like, she was over three years old. That's a really long time. That's great. But I definitely felt some sadness that it was sooner than she definitely would have chosen herself. And I would, yeah, I still wish I could have carried on until she was ready to stop.

But, you know, I'm, I'm glad that I did keep going. as long as I did, because had I stopped when, you know, when I first got pregnant, it would have been over a year earlier than she actually ended up going. So, 

[00:59:32] Emma Pickett: yeah. Yeah. I mean, you went for going, you went for five months, Briony, with aversion. That is amazing.

That is amazing. And, and You know, I hope you realize how special that is and, and, you know, you'd have been superwoman to allow her to go to self weaning and that would have been really, really, really tough. And, and as you say, possibly impacting on her as well, if she noticed that you were struggling. So you were doing this really not just for you, there was something there about, you know, your relationship with her as well that you were protecting.

And then the next day, did she ask again, or was all that ceremonial stuff really helpful because it kind of drew a line and she knew it wouldn't be happening the next day? 

[01:00:10] Bryony: We did ask, uh, when we went to bed that night, uh, the next night, she did, um, she did sort of go, oh, the milk? And I said, no, remember we, we sent it back to the moon yesterday and she had a big cry.

I think that was when it really hit her. I think the night before she hadn't really kind of realized, oh, this is it. Um, so she had a big cry and I thought, okay, this, this is probably going to be. it for the next week or so. Um, but that was the only time. She, she had a big cry that night and I comforted her and then the next night I was kind of prepared for it to happen again.

But she didn't ask and she's never asked for it, um, at bedtime since then. Occasionally, she'll kind of, if she sees me feeding Stanley, she'll kind of be like, any milk? And I'm like, no, sorry, yours went back to the moon, remember? But yeah, she's never really, like, cried about it since then. She does say she misses it sometimes, but, um, and I just say I miss it too.

But yeah, she's not kind of been super emotional about it. 

[01:01:14] Emma Pickett: Okay, that's good. And what are your plans for, for Stanley's weaning? Where would you like to get to with him? I 

[01:01:21] Bryony: think my, my goal is kind of the same as I had with Winnie, where just keep going until it doesn't work for one of us. Um, if I can, if I can let him naturally wean, that would be lovely.

But if, you know, if I get aversion or if something happens, then, you know, we'll just see how it goes. 

[01:01:39] Emma Pickett: Yeah, and are you, is the fear of aversion in the back of your mind? Is that something you, you think about or do you feel free from that? 

[01:01:48] Bryony: It is in the back of my mind a little bit. I noticed that I am probably, I don't get aversion with Stanley, but feeding him is very different to feeding Winnie.

And I notice that I'm less likely to just kind of let him hang out on the breast where, because Winnie, she, when she was little, she would literally, every nap was on the breast. She, if you removed her, she woke up. Um, and Stanley isn't like that, but I do find that sometimes I get a bit kind of, if he's been on a long time while he's asleep, I'm, I'm much more likely to be like, get off me.

Um, but it's not like, it's not full blown aversion. But yeah, I am sort of aware. Part of me thinks like, oh, is it gonna come? Because we don't know if we want to have like another baby or something. But if we don't, I kind of think like, oh, maybe, I don't know whether I will end up getting a version or not.

We'll see. 

[01:02:44] Emma Pickett: Yeah, and you may not. You absolutely may not. And Stanley didn't have tongue tie, didn't have anything. His latch is different from Winnie's. 

[01:02:52] Bryony: Oh no, he had so many issues. Just like Winnie, he had tongue tie, he um, he had a really shallow latch. Yeah, I had like a lot of the same issues with him that I did with Winnie, but I had much more support this time around because, because I'd been, um, uh, trained as a pierce forter and I was volunteering with Lucy, um, and Marion at the, at their group.

So they were both basically on call for me and I was texting them both going help, it's all going wrong. But yeah, I had so much more support and I did, I had to top him up a little bit until he had his tongue tie done and stuff like that. But it was nowhere near as bad as it was with Winnie. Um, I did find it difficult because, uh, I got diagnosed with PTSD after everything that happened with Winnie and I had treatment for it.

I had EMDR. But the feeding stuff with him triggered so much of that and I found it really, really difficult for a while, but, um, but we got there in the end and it didn't take as long as it did with Winnie, thankfully. 

[01:03:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah, I'm so sorry about the PTSD. That's, that's, that really highlights what an experience you went through with Winnie and how, and how feeding support.

really, really matters. And, and you know, those early weeks of getting breastfeeding off to a start is such a crucial time when people absolutely need, need that support. And I'm so glad you had more of that support second time around. Gosh, thank you so much for sharing your story, Briony. I really, really respect the journey you've gone through and, and, you know, the way you've, you know, looked after Winnie and Stanley through all the stresses that you were dealing with.

So you've got a, you have an Instagram account called give it a breast, which is an Instagram account where you talk about some of your tandem feeding stories and, and share some information about tandem feeding. So we'll put that in the show notes. And a shout out to the lovely Lucy and Marion and the support in Norwich and there's obviously a great team of people there and you are one of them offering support and peer support to families.

Is there anything else that you want to kind of highlight or anything else you thought was really useful or any other resources that you found really valuable? 

[01:04:57] Bryony: Um, I think you already mentioned about, um, Zainab's, um, Zainab's book and her website is very helpful for aversion and yeah, just finding skilled support, just making sure you go to, you know, either a breastfeeding group that is run by people who are trained or, or go into an IBCLC, just getting that support when you're struggling is so important.

It just changes everything. It makes it so much easier to, to deal with. 

[01:05:27] Emma Pickett: 100%. Yeah. I'll, I'll mention, um, St. Ab's resources in the show notes as well. Thank you so much for your time today, Bryony, and good luck with the end of your journey with Stanley. And I'd be interested to know how you, how you get on and how that goes.

Thank you. Oh, yeah. Thanks so much for your time today. 

[01:05:43] Bryony: Thank you. Thanks for having me.

[01:05:49] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at emmapicketibclc and on Twitter at makesmilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.