Hollie’s story - an eating disorder and postpartum psychosis

Trigger warning - In addition to maternal mental health and a discussion of postpartum psychosis, this episode deals with anorexia and disordered eating, which some listeners may find triggering.

I’m honoured that my guest this week, Holly Crawley, is willing to share her story with us. Holly is a mother of three, who was diagnosed with anorexia in her teens, and suffered postpartum psychosis with her first child. After the birth of her third child, Imogen, Holly suffered relapses of both conditions, and as a result spent several weeks in a mother and baby unit, away from the rest of her family. Throughout all of this, she was determined to continue breastfeeding, which she had not been able to do with her other children. Now she is recovering well, and Imogen is a healthy, happy, toddler who continues to enjoy breastfeeding.

My latest book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

Resources mentioned - 

Breastfeeding | Lowestoft & Waveney Breastfeeding Support | Lowestoft https://www.lowestoftandwaveneybreastfeeding.co.uk/

For support with eating disorders https://www.beateatingdisorders.org.uk/

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett and I'm a Lactation Consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end.

And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too. Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding Breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me today. I am going to be talking to Holly, Holly Crawley from Lowestoft, who's going to be talking to me about her. Breastfeeding journey and some of the experiences that she's been through in the first year and a bit more of her daughter Imogen's life. And just to say that Imogen is in the room, as they say, I'm looking at her now.

This is one of the disadvantages of being podcast only is you don't get to see the absolutely gorgeous Imogen who is grinning at me with the most. Beautiful smile and sticking her finger up as if she's going to announce something. And, um, so I wish you could see her, but sadly I'm a podcast that probably won't ever go video because we often talk to moms at vulnerable times in their lives.

Before we get started, Holly, let's talk about trigger warnings. So we're going to be talking about some things that maybe aren't easy for people to listen to, or they may be at a stage in their life where it's not great to listen to this topic. Tell us what we're going to be touching on today. 

[00:01:39] Holly: So we're going to be touching upon maternal mental health and also eating disorders.

[00:01:46] Emma Pickett: Yeah, so maternal mental health is a subject that we've touched on lots of times in this podcast and that's definitely not something, you know, we should shy away from talking about, but I'm aware that for eating disorders, that's not necessarily something that's comfortable for everyone to hear depending on where they are in their journey.

So thank you for that. So let's start at the end. The beautiful Imogen, who I just saw. She's 15 months. Tell me about her breastfeeding patterns at the moment. What's breastfeeding Imogen like day to day at the moment? 

[00:02:17] Holly: Um, at the moment it's more for comfort and to go to sleep. Um, when she's tired or she's upset, if she falls over and she hurts herself, she just, she has a little bit of boob to make herself feel better.

Um, she still feeds throughout the night, not often, but, um, again, I think it's more just for, for comfort at the moment. 

[00:02:37] Emma Pickett: Okay, so bed sharing, co sleeping? Yeah, we co sleep, yeah. Yeah. And, and how long has she been not feeding so much in the day? What's, how long has that been the case? 

[00:02:49] Holly: Um, probably since she turned around one.

She kind of, she's upped her food a bit more. She wasn't all that much for food when we started weaning. Um, but since she's turned one, she just seems to have got a bit more of an appetite for food and a little bit less for milk, but, um, we're still going strong and I'm going to take her lead. She can, she can wean off the breast when she's ready.

[00:03:10] Emma Pickett: Great. And before you had her, what was your sort of background with breastfeeding? Did you have close friends who'd breastfed? Is it something you knew a lot about? What was your kind of plans for breastfeeding and your feelings about breastfeeding? 

[00:03:23] Holly: Well, I have, I have two other children. I had my son when I was 22 and I didn't, I didn't even try to breastfeed him, to be honest.

I think I tried it once in the hospital and thought this is going to be too hard. Um, and to be honest, midwives were quite quick to push formula in the hospital. And it was the same again with my other daughter. I fed her for about three months. She was combi fed and she developed a bottle preference. So that kind of ended sooner than I wanted it to.

And I felt almost like I grieved that breastfeeding journey. 

[00:03:55] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:03:56] Holly: I knew that Imogen was going to be my last. So. That was it. I had my mind set. I'm going to feed her no matter how hard it gets. Um, I reached it. It was hard, you know, it's not easy. It's, it was a hard journey, but I was able to reach out to the local breastfeeding team and get some support, which I didn't do before.

I didn't have all the information available to me before. I think if I had more information and all, all the details available, I would have been able to be more successful in my other breastfeeding journeys, but. And also Imogen, she just She just took to it. 

[00:04:34] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. So obviously she's, her partnership in the process is super important for sure.

Um, the way you talk about your first experience, your first birth, that idea of giving it one go and not even really thinking about it beyond that. When you look back at that time, I mean, I, I mean, I like the way you're talking about it because you're not blaming yourself on any, in any way. And I think some mums mistakenly do that.

You're sort of, you know, understanding where you were in that space. So you didn't really have family members who are breastfed. It wasn't something you thought about antenatally. It wasn't really on your radar. 

[00:05:09] Holly: No, it was one of those things of, um, I knew that I'd be asked, would you like to try breastfeeding?

Um, and I could take it or leave it at that time. I mean, I think. I didn't know, I don't remember having anyone in my life that was breastfeeding around me. So I don't think I've actually really experienced it elsewhere before. 

[00:05:28] Emma Pickett: And you say that the midwives weren't really encouraging you to breastfeed? 

[00:05:32] Holly: No, they were quite quick to, um, to push the formula.

And, um, I don't know if it's Because they were trying to help me and maybe might spare my feelings and just sort of push the whole the fed is best narrative and, um, tries to make me feel better. But I think looking back, if they'd have perhaps said, you know, we'll bring in the feeding team or maybe give me some leaflets or sit with me and talk with me a bit more about breastfeeding, I might have given it a better go.

Um, but I didn't have the information available then, so. 

[00:06:06] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, we do sometimes find that younger mums are sometimes not given the support to breastfeed. There's sometimes an assumption that younger mums aren't going to breastfeed. So I wonder whether that's a fact or it's inexcusable and we can see from how you are with Imogen that you've got that, you know, underlying desire to breastfeed and you've got that instinct and that's, you know, it's part of, very much part of your mothering now.

So, you know, it, it just feels horrifying actually to hear that no one even helped you explore that. Um, and, um, yeah, I'm, I'm sorry that was your experience and I'm also so sorry that to hear your second experience and hear you using that word grieving. That's, that's a. That's a tough word. Yeah, 

[00:06:46] Holly: that is what it feels like, you know, when you When you have your heart set on something and, and it doesn't work out.

I think breastfeeding grief is like a, is a real thing. 

[00:06:55] Emma Pickett: Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. 100%. And, and when you were pregnant with Imogen, did you therefore sort of prepare differently because you knew how important breastfeeding was to you the third time round 

[00:07:07] Holly: I did. Yes. Um, so with my second we, we brought some bottles and a sterilizer and all that just in case.

And, um, I didn't with Imogen. I said, no, if it gets hard, that's tough. I'm going to have to power through. Um, I had my mindset 

[00:07:22] Emma Pickett: completely set on it this time. And did you sort of find people locally and research kind of what your local support was, was what was available and did that do that differently as well?

I 

[00:07:33] Holly: did, yes. Um, I wanted to harvest colostrum. So I kind of done a little bit of research and found local breastfeeding groups and spoke to my midwife about that. And in my search, I found the local breastfeeding team. So I had their, their website, um, their Facebook page. I think it was, I had that all available to me ready.

So 

[00:07:53] Emma Pickett: Imogen and how, how was that experience? How, what was your birth like? And what was your early feeding like? 

[00:08:00] Holly: So my birth with Imogen, it was a planned section. I had a cesarean section with my second. So it was offered for me to have a repeat section. Really thought about that. I really considered going for a VBAC, but, um.

I went for this action, I am glad I did. Um, it went well, we healed up quite well. I had a few infections afterwards in my wound, which was hard. But equally, I think that helped me with the breastfeeding journey because I had to not get up and do as much because I'm quite a having ADHD. I do kind of struggle to sit still and rest, but I had to, which helped with the breastfeeding journey because I just sat and had her latched constantly.

[00:08:38] Emma Pickett: That is an interesting perspective. I love that. Yeah. The benefits of infections postpartum is that they get you to slow down. Tell me a bit more about your ADHD. Is that something that was diagnosed before you had Imogen? 

[00:08:49] Holly: That was diagnosed while I was pregnant with Imogen. Um, I, it's something that I've known that I've had for a long time and I'd been on the waiting list for a long time as many people are, but I got that diagnosis while I was pregnant with her.

[00:09:02] Emma Pickett: And how did that feel to, to get that, that information? A 

[00:09:05] Holly: relief, I'm going to say, because once you've got that confirmation of something you suspected, you kind of feel heard and seen and 

[00:09:14] Emma Pickett: yeah, yeah. That's good to hear that. Yeah. I know the waiting lists are so long, aren't they? And lots of people just wait a very long time to get that information and, and to, to have that, as you say, that kind of external recognition is really, really valuable.

So, so you had your, your birth, you were doing your early breastfeeding and having lots of opportunity for early breastfeeding. Any early breastfeeding challenges with Imogen? 

[00:09:36] Holly: Uh, we had a shallow latch, which, um, I got support through the breastfeeding team. They, they came over and kind of helped me to correct that.

Uh, that was it really. It was, um. Yeah, apart from, apart from that, we, we took to it quite well. 

[00:09:51] Emma Pickett: Great. Well, I can see that she's, uh, definitely blooming. So she's had a fantastic first year of, of food and nutrition and enjoyed her breastfeeding for sure. So we're going to touch on your eating disorder history.

Um, is that something that you were experiencing earlier in life? Tell me a little bit about your, your journey with that when you were younger. 

[00:10:10] Holly: Yeah, so, um, I had anorexia as a teenager. I think I was around 14, 15 at the time in high school. Um, I was quite unwell with that. I missed. Basically a whole year of school, I had to go back and repeat my last year, my GCSE year because I missed a lot of school, but I recovered from that, got better and had a very healthy relationship with her for quite a while.

Is she being too noisy in the background? No, no, 

[00:10:37] Emma Pickett: she's absolutely fine. No, don't worry. Honestly, don't worry if we can hear, not a problem at all, not a problem. 

[00:10:43] Holly: Um, yeah, I think with an eating disorder, you, once you have one, I think you always have one. It's always going to be there. You of course go into recovery.

And I've kind of dipped in and out of that over the years. Um, but I've been well for a long time until I had imaging. 

[00:11:01] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. So when you were unwell, when you were a teenager, were you hospitalized? Did you get professional support? 

[00:11:09] Holly: I had professional support, um, but I wasn't hospitalized. I managed to get support through the community team.

Um, and my family were very supportive as well. Um, Which of course helps if you've got a good support network around you, and I managed to get better, so it all worked out okay. 

[00:11:28] Emma Pickett: Yeah, and, and your fertility obviously wasn't affected as you're a mum of three, and, uh, and that's great to hear. So you mentioned that when you'd had Imogen, things regressed a little bit.

Are you comfortable with me using that word, regressed? 

[00:11:42] Holly: Yeah, I'm fine, yeah. 

[00:11:43] Emma Pickett: Yeah, tell me, tell me what happened. 

[00:11:46] Holly: Uh, well, that started off quite innocently with the whole, um, want to shift the baby weight thing, which I suppose we all kind of go through. And I just took it too far. It just, it took over. Um, I suppose when you do have an eating disorder, there's always that.

sort of control in, in your mind? Well, I couldn't, I couldn't switch it off. No matter how much weight I lost it, to me, it wasn't enough. 

[00:12:11] Emma Pickett: And why do you think it happened after Imogen, but not so much after your first two? 

[00:12:18] Holly: I'm not sure. I don't really know. I think maybe because I was already, I had the postpartum psychosis and the postpartum depression, maybe that could have potentially played a part in it.

I already had. Some sort of mental health issues going on, maybe not. I don't really know. I haven't really kind of thought about that. 

[00:12:38] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yes. I mean, obviously you've, you've, you've touched on, on your other mental health issues as well. When did they start to kind of raise their head? 

[00:12:47] Holly: The psychosis was pretty much straight away within, within the first two weeks of having her and the depression kind of lingered for a few months.

Come on then, up you 

[00:12:58] Emma Pickett: go. Hello Imogen. Hello. Oh, what's that on her head? It's a hoover. That's what we need. 

[00:13:03] Holly: It's not really the place for your hoover, is it? 

[00:13:08] Emma Pickett: Oh, I don't know. It's always good to have hoovers. So, um, are you comfortable having this conversation with her around and being able to overhear? Does that feel okay?

Let me know if it doesn't feel comfortable and you want to do anything differently. So for anyone who doesn't know what psychosis is, I mean, we talk a lot about postpartum depression and postnatal depression, but that word psychosis is not often used. And I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about what it is.

How would you define it for someone who, who did, doesn't know anything about postpartum psychosis? 

[00:13:37] Holly: Um, I imagine, I suppose it's quite an individualized, but for me it was, I lost touch with reality. I couldn't, uh, a lot of women get auditory and like visual hall hallucinations. Um, I didn't really get that.

I got, um, delusional thinking. I, I become convinced that, um, Imogen wasn't real. She wasn't mine. She was, she'd been replaced with a doll. Um. I had to, I was constantly calling my midwives to come and check her over because I thought something was wrong with her. She doesn't look like Imogen anymore. I became convinced that I'd switched timelines.

I'd like shifted to a different, completely different timeline. I wasn't in the right universe, the right world. My family weren't mine. I didn't recognize myself in the mirror. It was really looking back on it. It's really quite scary. 

[00:14:25] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:14:26] Holly: Yeah. It's, I mean, anyone else with post natal psychosis might have had a completely different experience, but 

[00:14:32] Emma Pickett: it's the only way I can describe it, really.

I mean, scary is definitely the word that springs to mind. I mean, you're, you're obviously able now to remember what you were thinking in those, in those moments. I mean, when you think back to that time, I mean, it's the first couple of weeks, so you're recovering from your infections, you're getting your breastfeeding established, and you've got these feelings happening at the same time.

And I think some people are surprised to hear how early on psychosis can develop. When did you start to think, I need help? 

[00:15:01] Holly: Um, I don't think that I did think that to be honest, it was everyone around me kind of telling me, you know, you need to reach out. Luckily I was already under the perinatal mental health team.

So I had a lot of regular check ins. Um, and it was my husband and my care coordinator and my doctor that had come round to my house. They all sat me down and said, we think you need to go into potentially a mother and baby unit. or start on some medication. So, um, yeah, it was, it was others telling me you need help.

[00:15:38] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So it's good that you're under the care of the team already. Was that because of your history with eating disorders? 

[00:15:43] Holly: I had postnatal depression with, and psychosis with my first born, not with my second, but I did, and because of the history, I had the team in place throughout my whole pregnancy. 

[00:15:55] Emma Pickett: Okay.

How was your, how was it different with your first or how are your symptoms different? Do you remember? It was a while ago now. I appreciate it. 

[00:16:01] Holly: I really don't remember much from my first at all, to be honest, from that experience. Um, I was hospitalized, but there wasn't a mother and baby unit around, so I was separated from him, which, yeah, which wasn't, there wasn't also, wasn't a perinatal mental health team back then that just didn't exist.

So, um, this time around, there's a lot more support. And early intervention, which to me, I think is key. If you can catch this early, have the support in place already, then you've got a much better chance of getting better, quicker. 

[00:16:31] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I'm so sorry that you were separated from your son. I haven't asked you how old you are now, Holly.

I know you were 22 when you had your first, how old are you now? 37. 37. Okay. So. It took 15 years or, you know, quite a long time to get to the right place, but you obviously were in a much better place now in terms of the support network. So, so you had the perinatal, perinatal mental health team. They knew you were, you were at risk.

Your, your loved ones were telling you that, that you weren't, you weren't necessarily yourself. How long was it before you went into the mother and baby unit? 

[00:17:03] Holly: So the idea with the mother and baby unit was first given to me, they said they had a bed available. Imogen was around, I think she was about four weeks old at the time, and I declined because I didn't want to leave my other children.

[00:17:15] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah, 

[00:17:15] Holly: I can understand that. Yeah, they accepted that, but the mother and baby unit have their own crisis team, it's called the outreach team. So I worked, I worked with them, they were coming around, I think they were coming around daily at one point and um, offering me the medica I took the medication because my husband basically pleaded with me to, to take it and to get better.

And I managed to get over the psychosis at home, I didn't have to go into the unit for that. It was later on down the line. Imogen was seven months old by the time I went me to the unit. 

[00:17:46] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you recovered from the psychosis and, and, but it was your eating disorder that then continued to be an issue?

[00:17:54] Holly: I was referred to the eating disorders team because the perinatal team, they're very specific to, they, they don't deal with eating disorders. It's quite a quite complex when it comes to eating disorders. So they referred me to the eating disorders team. They took me on. I think they were very aware of the fact that I was postnatal, um, I was breastfeeding because they, with those, I couldn't have gone into an eating disorders unit because Imogen wouldn't have been able to come with me.

Um, I still had the postnatal depression. I didn't have the psychosis, but I was very, very low in mood at the time. So again, they suggested, recommended the mother and baby unit. And to work alongside the eating disorders team while I was in there, they would kind of team up and they come up with a care plan and it worked well.

It was, it was the best thing for me at the time to go in there. Yeah. How long were you, were you there? I was there for two, just over two months, about nine weeks I was there for. 

[00:18:50] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, I had an interview in one of my episodes with a very lovely mum called Louise who went to a mother and baby unit, um, and completely sort of opened my eyes to actually how positive going to a mother and baby unit can be.

Um, and, and, you know, we sort of almost sort of think, Oh no, what a disaster. Someone's gone to a mother and baby unit. But actually. You know, three cheers for mother and baby units. I mean, you know, the, you know, the, the Holly of, you know, age 22 could have, you could have appreciated that one of those as well.

I mean, what an amazing thing it is to have that really close personal care. And to be able to have your baby with you. And I'm so sorry that your older children weren't able to be with you. And I guess that that's an aspect of it, obviously, is not great. I mean, do you mind me asking what was their understanding of where mummy had gone?

And what were you able to say to them? 

[00:19:41] Holly: Yeah, I'd say by this point, my oldest Aidan, he was 14. So I was kind of able to be a bit more open and honest with him. He'd, he'd noticed that something was going on. He'd noticed that mum didn't look very well and, um, he'd seen the medication being dropped off and the people come around.

So my husband sat and had a chat with him and he, he was okay. He was, he was quite understanding. Whereas, uh, Millie was five, or she's, she's still, she's five years old, um, and you want to be as honest as you can be with your children, but there's some things they're just not going to understand. It doesn't matter how, how you explain it to them.

We just said that mommy's not feeling well. Mommy's going to pop to hospital for a little while and you can see her. And, um, I could, I wasn't under a section, so I could leave, I could go home. I could have home these days. Which I did as much as I could. And, um, she was okay. I did wonder how she would be.

We told the school so they could offer her any pastoral support if she needed, but she, she never needed to. Um, I think five's a lovely age, isn't it? They're quite 

[00:20:49] Emma Pickett: adaptable, flexible. Yeah. So how close was the unit to, to home? 

[00:20:54] Holly: It was about a 45 minute drive. So yeah, it could have been worse because if that was full, they could have sent me elsewhere, anywhere in the country.

But 

[00:21:03] Emma Pickett: yeah, I mean, you do hear of people kind of, a bed is a hundred miles away or something, but I'm hoping if you had Millie there, they would have prioritized you being able to be, be close to home. So in, in that unit then you were a bit unusual in that you were under the care of the eating disorders team, so you had the sort of daily care of the staff in the unit, um, and obviously your postnatal depression was, was a factor as well, but then you had that specialist intervention from the eating disorder team.

And do you mind me asking what, what does that look like? Is it, is it, um, talk therapy? Um, are they very closely monitoring your intake of food? What, what does that sort of care look like? Thank you. 

[00:21:41] Holly: So I had to go on to a meal plan and the nurses in the unit had to make sure that I was following that meal plan and if they had any questions, they, they were able to contact the eating disorders team.

I think they, I wasn't involved as much with the meeting, but they had meetings like MDT meet team meetings with all the managers and I think the eating disorders team would get involved through teams. in those 

[00:22:07] Emma Pickett: meetings. Okay. So, so when you've got a meal plan and, and you're not well, and you're sort of not wanting to follow that meal plan, were you in a space where you were sort of fighting against it, which I know sometimes what happens with younger patients or are you in a space of, no, I want to get better.

I'm going to do this. Um, how are you feeling about that? 

[00:22:28] Holly: To be honest, it was a bit of both. There was a part of me that thought, well, You know, I, I've come here so clearly I want to get better. Um, I've agreed to this. I would really like to enjoy food again, but then the other part of me was, well, you've lost, you've lost weight.

Why do you want to put it back on again? It was a constant, that's what a big part of an eating disorder is the constant battle in your own mind. And I wasn't quite ready to start eating again because this, this meal plan, it wasn't just, um, Starting off small, it was straight in with three full meals plus snacks and um, it was a lot, it was a lot to take in.

Plus at this time, I'd started to wean Imogen, so I was having to handle food for her as well. Um, so it was a lot. 

[00:23:16] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine. And, and I mean, you know, I don't have personal experience of eating disorders. I have, I have friends that have, but was there anyone else in the unit who was going through that?

Did you have any peer support? I know in, in specialist hospital settings, which are. You know, just for eating disorder care, you, you maybe would be alongside other people that there are, there's negatives about that and positives about that, but you would have that peer support. Um, how did it feel to not necessarily be in that environment with anybody else who's going through the same thing?

[00:23:47] Holly: No, I think there was nobody else in there with an eating disorder. Um, there is quite a small unit. There were eight beds. I think there was only six of us in there at the time. And I was the only one with an eating disorder, which I took that as positive I mean, even though it was my own personal journey, at least I was there with Imogen.

If I'd have gone on to another unit with other people with eating disorders, yeah, I may have had maybe some peer support for them, but I would have been separated from Imogen and that would have been a lot more detrimental, I think. 

[00:24:21] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I understand that. And your talk therapy is psychoanalysis, um, I'm assuming and, and, and talking about sort of day to day practical stuff as well.

What does, what does that look like? 

[00:24:34] Holly: Yeah, so, um, I didn't have any talk therapy about, specifically about the eating disorder while I was in, while I was in there. They kind of focused on getting me physically better, putting on the weight. Um, I was having weekly weigh ins. Do you want to think what else?

Yeah, the, the, the meal plan. I had to have somebody sit with me to watch, to make sure that I was actually eating. 

[00:24:57] Emma Pickett: And then talk therapy happened afterwards? 

[00:24:59] Holly: Yeah, that happened afterwards when I came out. Once, because when I was in the unit, the eating disorders team weren't directly involved with me, they were kind of supporting the, the MBU team.

So when I came out, the perinatal team, let the eating disorders team know that I was, I was home. Uh, they contacted me and then I started talk therapy with them. I think I only had four sessions. They offer you four sessions and. Um, if you need more, you can have more. If not, then, you know, you're good to go.

And I only had the four. Okay. Okay. 

[00:25:33] Emma Pickett: You mentioned before that if someone's had an eating disorder, they're, they're always in recovery. Is that something you still feel is true today? Yes. Yeah, 

[00:25:43] Holly: I still, I do still get, I mean, I'm eating well. I hope, I think I've got a good relationship with food now, but there's always a little thought sometimes creeps forward, um, I'm not under the eating disorders team anymore.

But I am still under the perinatal mental health team. I'll be with them until Imogen's two. And I'm quite open and honest with them. If I do get these thoughts coming back, I can talk to them about it. And the eating disorders team, they're still there. If I need to go back to them, they will take me straight back on.

[00:26:12] Emma Pickett: Yeah, you're describing really positive care, Holly, you're describing a really good system of people really there for you. Is that how you feel about it? 

[00:26:21] Holly: Yes, definitely. I mean, you get people that complain quite a bit about the mental health services, but I've only had a positive experience, but then mine's always been with the perinatal team.

Yeah, they've, they've been really good. 

[00:26:34] Emma Pickett: Yeah.

A little advert just to say that you can buy my four books online. You've Got It In You, A Positive Guide To Breastfeeding is 99p as an e book and that's aimed at expectant and new parents. The breast book published by Pinter and Martin is a guide for 9 to 14 year olds and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed.

And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond 6 months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding. For a 10 percent discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley Press, that's uk. jkp. com and use the code MMPE10. Makes milk, pick it Emma, 10. So throughout all this, you've been breastfeeding.

Throughout all this, you carried on breastfeeding. So through the psychosis, through the eating disorder, you carried on breastfeeding through all this. And that is pretty damn amazing, Ollie. I mean, that is pretty damn amazing. I mean, when you were You know, really not feeling well. I mean, you mentioned feeling sort of like emotionally detached from, from Imogen and, and the bit you talked about using, you know, seeing her as, as maybe not even a human, which is, you know, obviously a really scary moment.

You were still breastfeeding through all that. So there was something underlying that was that instinct to carry on breastfeeding. 

[00:28:01] Holly: Yeah. I was then going to 

[00:28:01] Emma Pickett: say, it's just instinct, isn't it? It's just, it's just built in. Yeah. And then when you went to the mother and baby unit. Obviously when you're, you know, weight had dropped, did you find there was an impact on your milk supply?

What was happening with your, yeah. 

[00:28:15] Holly: It took a little bit longer for my letdown to start. It did, you know, I don't think my supply dipped that much, but I was doing everything I could in terms of, I started researching like fenugreek and, you know, all these sorts of things. I don't know if any of it actually really helped me, but, um, yeah.

She, somehow you managed to get your milk, didn't you? So weight 

[00:28:37] Emma Pickett: gain was fine after you sorted out the latch issues, breastfeeding carried on being effective. 

[00:28:43] Holly: So my, the perinatal team contacted the health visiting team for them to come round and, and weigh Imogen. I think they would come in every three to four weeks just to, just to see that she was still following her centile.

And, and she was, she was doing really well, thankfully. Um, because of course that was a, that was a worry, and that was a worry that my husband had as well, was um, think about, think about imaging, um, and to be honest, at the time I wasn't, it had completely taken over and I wasn't thinking of her. 

[00:29:14] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, I was going to ask you about that because I imagine some people will think, well, you know, how can you, you know, relapse with your eating disorder when you, when you were breastfeeding, surely your brain was thinking, oh no, you might impact on your milk supply and milk production.

How can you not have that as your primary focus, but this is about being unwell, isn't it? It's not, it's not logical. It doesn't operate logically. So, so did you have a little part of your brain saying, no, no, come on, this might impact on, on milk supply or did that not even factor in? 

[00:29:43] Holly: a little bit, but it, to be honest, eating disorders can be quite, I'm going to use the word selfish.

People might disagree, but I was being selfish at the time. It completely took over my mind. Now I'm at the other side of it. I look back and think, you know, why would you do that? Why weren't you thinking of emission? Why weren't you putting her first and her needs first? But the short answer is I was unwell and it's an illness that completely, it just completely takes over.

[00:30:10] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I think that's, that's so important, isn't it? But I think when people come across those with eating disorders, You know, you think you can sort of talk someone out of it. You think, you know, it's, it's not, it's, it's, it's a mental illness. You are mentally unwell. It is not something that, that logic can necessarily play a huge part in.

And, and even if you read an article about, you know, milk supply dipping because you dropped below a certain BMI, it doesn't, you know, your, your brain isn't going to listen to that if you're, if you're not, not, not feeling well. Did you have people in the mother and baby unit who were sort of breastfeeding supportive?

What was the kind of lactation support vibe like in those couple of months? 

[00:30:48] Holly: So I was the only mum breastfeeding in there. Out of all six of us there, I was the only breastfeeding mum. Um, so I kind of had myself. Uh, the nurse, we had nursery nurses. They were very supportive in, um, in helping us and making sure that she got what she needed.

Uh, and by this point, she had started to eat little bits of food. So that was, uh, positive that, you know, she was getting something and sips of water. But in terms of breastfeeding support, the staff were very supportive, but I didn't have any sort of peer support with it. 

[00:31:24] Emma Pickett: Okay. And what was the, um, what the sleeping arrangements like?

Cause I know you're bed sharing now. What were the sleeping arrangements like in the MBU? That was really hard because. 

[00:31:33] Holly: We weren't allowed to go sleep in there. Um, so sleep was really, it kind of went out the window while we were there. I was trying so hard to get her try. They wanted me to put her in the car.

They wanted me to try and essentially sleep, train her while we were in there. And I knew that wasn't going to work. So, um, I spent a lot of my time basically sitting up in a chair. letting her sleep on me and then trying to sneak her into the cot and it never worked. Occasionally the staff would come in and take her for me.

Take her out, take her down into the day area and let me get little snippets of sleep here and there. And it was like that for the whole time that I was in there. Um, the day I came home, we went straight back to co sleeping and it's not going to change anytime soon. 

[00:32:20] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, why do you think that they aren't keen on co sleeping in there?

What do you think is going on there? 

[00:32:25] Holly: To be honest, I think it's more the fact that you're on medication while you're in there. They kind of upped my meds while I was in there, just to get me better a little bit quicker. So, you know, I could see it from, from that point of view. Okay. Yeah. It's a, it's a safety thing for them.

It's just their policy. They have to follow their policies and procedures, but, um, 

[00:32:47] Emma Pickett: I don't have to follow them when I'm at home. No, you damn right. And I'm actually wondering, I mean, you sitting up. I mean, you know, you could have fallen asleep sitting up and we know that's more dangerous than I mean, i'm not, you know, i'm not going to pretend i'm able to make a medical decision here And obviously there's something going on that they're aware of that i'm not aware of but I wonder whether it actually is safer really if you are, you know sitting in a chair or something.

[00:33:10] Holly: I mean they do um 30 minute checks in there. So luckily you, you know, if I had have nodded off, they would have come in and woken me up, but that's, you know, it's not always the case. So it's, yeah, I see what you mean. 

[00:33:22] Emma Pickett: Yeah. You mentioned that you were struggling with depression as well. Once the psychosis had gone, tell me, tell me a bit more about how that journey went.

[00:33:30] Holly: Uh, to be honest, I think when you're, when you're going through an eating disorder, I think. Low mood comes kind of hand in hand with that. If you're not feeding your body, you're not feeding your mind. So, um, I was very, very low, very flat a lot of the time as well. Just couldn't find any enjoyment in anything.

I had no motivation to go out with my other children. I took them to a lot of like baby groups and I never had that motivation to do that with image. And I just felt too, too low to kind of leave the house most of the time. Um, again, that was another part of the reason I went into the unit and went onto this medication while I was there to try and sort of lift me back up again.

[00:34:10] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And when you, when time came to leave, I mean, when I had the conversation with Louise, she kind of described this interesting phase where they're kind of nudging you to leave. They're kind of nudging you to go home. Is that what you experienced as well? 

[00:34:23] Holly: Well, to be honest, I took myself home because, um, It probably was the right time.

I think they, they give you a discharge, a potential discharge date, sort of in the future. Let's aim for this date. And I think I left maybe two weeks before they were kind of hinting for me to go anyway, but Imogen become unwell in the, she'd become unwell. She had, I think she just had a bit of a snuffly cold and a temperature.

I'd been up throughout the night with her and I'd, like, we laid on the bed, I was laying on the bed feed in her and I nodded off on the bed with her. So they caught me having a little doze with her and basically told me that she wasn't allowed to be in the room. With me anymore at nighttime because I've broken the 

[00:35:07] Emma Pickett: policy 

[00:35:08] Holly: was going to be in the room with me, then I would need to have a one to one sat in my room, watching us sleep.

And I didn't want that. I just didn't really feel comfortable with it. And I felt like this is probably a good time for me to, to leave now. I felt in a good place to go anyway. So, um, 

[00:35:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, that's not a nice way to leave. Is it that feeling that you've kind of broken the rules? I mean, 

[00:35:30] Holly: I 

[00:35:31] Emma Pickett: mean, when you look back on that time, and that time being in the unit, do you feel positive about it?

Are you glad that you went? How do you feel about that? Those, those couple of months? 

[00:35:41] Holly: Yeah, so I'm glad. I'm glad I went. I think it was a positive experience for us both. I think I'd let because of the fact that I've been separated and hospitalized with my first. I kind of let that get in the way a bit of, I sort of remembered that experience of, of it being very kind of clinical and the mother and baby unit wasn't like that it was just, it was more like a home.

Um, and they were very family focused. They, they let, they had like afternoon teas where you could bring you other children up and family barbecues. And, you know, it was, it was a positive experience all around. 

[00:36:15] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And how did it feel to be home with, with Millie and Aidan? How was, and obviously your husband as well.

We haven't talked about him, but he's a father story. How did it feel once you were home? Was there an element of it feeling a bit scary in a way to be home? Or was it just a hundred percent positive? I 

[00:36:29] Holly: think it felt a little bit strange at first because I'd had a few leave days where I'd come home for the day.

And then they, I had a couple of leave nights where I'd stayed home for the night and then gone back to the unit the next day. So it kind of felt like. I was on leave almost, I was waiting to, to go back and I'd sit there and think, Oh, actually I'm not going back, I'm home, I'm home for good now. So it took a little bit of getting used to, um, and the team were very supportive.

They have, um, the outreach team from the MBU, they come to visit you at home for the first, I think you get offered three months of support from the MBU, but if you don't need it, you don't, you don't have to take it. So yeah, again, the support was there to transition back to being at home, but it felt good, felt good to do that.

[00:37:14] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. And obviously when you were, when you were away, you were just really parenting Imogen day to day and just breastfeeding her day to day. Did it feel different to, to be parenting other people while you're looking after Imogen? I mean, did your breastfeeding patterns change or how was that impact of coming?

back to being a parent of three again. 

[00:37:34] Holly: Yeah, I don't think our breastfeeding pattern changed. I think we got into quite a good swing and um, yeah, coming back home to the other two, my oldest is quite self sufficient. He's quite independent. Um, it was good to be back with Millie, but it was very busy. 

[00:37:49] Emma Pickett: Yeah.

[00:37:49] Holly: And also I found my partner, he obviously had to take time off work to be home with the other two. So he kind of gotten into his own routine at home and I'd gotten into my routine in the unit. And then we had to kind of mesh our routines together and find a new, new balance between us, but it all worked out.

[00:38:08] Emma Pickett: Yeah, no, it definitely did. And I'm, I'm guessing you're very grateful for co sleeping now. I mean, some people who co sleep are slightly resentful of it and you're kind of like, woohoo, co sleeping, celebrating it and appreciating it. 

[00:38:20] Holly: It was lovely. Our first night back home, I was like, back to normal. We can finally just lay in bed together and actually get some sleep.

It's the only way we sleep. She needs to just be close. Which is fine, it's fine by me, I sleep better like that as well. 

[00:38:32] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean it's a lifesaver for lots of people isn't it? Especially once you lean into it and you just kind of accept it. I think the people that struggle are the people that fight it emotionally, like they think it's wrong or they shouldn't be doing it or they've got to move away from it so they're looking at their clock every time they wake up or they're, reluctantly coming back in again and I think if you sort of embrace it and think of it positively, then you're going to get that oxytocin and you're going to be able to sleep better and you'll relax.

And it just makes it so much easier. You mentioned that you, um, don't have any plans to end breastfeeding anytime soon. Um, you're just going to let Limogen take, take the lead. What, how does your husband feel about breastfeeding? Is it something you talk about, or he's happy for you to decide what you're doing?

[00:39:16] Holly: Um, he's, he's happy in the beginning. He kind of said, are you sure you want to carry on? Do you want to try and give her a bottle? I think that's because I was so unwell that he wanted to help, you know, he thought he was being helpful in suggesting it. Um, I think if my memory serves me right, I think at one point he did try and give her a bottle of express milk and she didn't want it.

She was not interested in that, but now he's, he's very supportive. He, you know, he just, you know, Let's make it on with what I want to do, which is the best way. 

[00:39:47] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And when you say, you know, you're going to let her take the lead, obviously she has naturally reduced a little bit in the day anyway, was that anything you nudged along or that just literally just came from her?

[00:39:59] Holly: No, that's just, that's just come from her. 

[00:40:01] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Well, she looks like she's having a great time exploring the world. Um, so if someone is listening to this and they are maybe struggling with a relapse in terms of an eating disorder, what kind of, I'm aware this is a really difficult topic to talk about sensitively because, you know, everyone is so different and everyone's coming from different backgrounds and experiences, but If it does happen that someone is listening to this and they're worrying that maybe in that postpartum period they're struggling, what sort of messages would you want to give them?

[00:40:32] Holly: I would say there is support there. You have to obviously be ready to want to reach out and get that support. It is there. Um, I don't want to be stereotypical and say think of your baby because people tried that with me and clearly it didn't, it didn't work, but, um. Yeah, just reach out. 

[00:40:53] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you were very lucky that you, you know, obviously you were able to continue breastfeeding and your milk supply wasn't impacted, um, which is, which is super lucky, um, because obviously lots of people aren't able to continue breastfeeding if their eating disorder is a real, is a real issue for them.

How did your journey with depression continue? Is that something you're still struggling with or what's happening with that? 

[00:41:16] Holly: No, that's been, I mean, it continued on for a while. I carried on taking the medication and, um, it's, I'm in a good place now. 

[00:41:25] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, I mean, one of the things that we know is that when you do continue breastfeeding, you know, you get those doses of oxytocin and you get those oxytocin releases and um, you know, there's, there's a, that can have a positive impact on your mental health as well.

Um, and do you feel, you talked about your grief with your experience with, with Millie. Do you, do you feel that your experience with Imogen has sort of healed some of that? I think 

[00:41:49] Holly: it has. Yeah. And I think if for whatever reason, either with the eating disorder, if that would have stopped our journey, I just, I don't even know how I would have dealt with that and the feelings.

And so, yeah, I'm, I'm very grateful that it's been different this time around and we've been successful and it is, it has healed that part 

[00:42:10] Emma Pickett: of me. Yeah. Well, that's really good to hear. That's really good. I'm so glad that was your experience. So I'm going to ask you a slightly sticky question now, and I want you to tell me if this this doesn't feel comfortable But I'm just wondering how it feels to be a mother of girls With a history of an eating disorder and and how how do you think about that when you're you know?

Talking to Millie about food or you know, she's asking for another cake or you know What sort of how are you kind of? Managing that at the moment. And is there, is there any issues where you deflect onto them or, or think about their diet or their food? Or do you feel that's completely separate from, from your own, um, thinking about yourself?

[00:42:53] Holly: Yeah, I do try my best to keep that separate. That has popped into my, my head that potentially one day for everyone down the line. Will they develop their own issues with eating? Maybe they will, you know, who knows? There's a lot of. Things out there on social media as well, isn't there, that could influence them.

I do try to get Millie involved in helping me prepare her food. I would like her to have a healthy relationship with food and the same with Imogen. I done baby led weaning of her. So she's always been really hands on and, and touching the food herself. Um, it's something that I just kind of take day by day with them.

I think it's going well. I like to think that we're doing okay with them and their relationship 

[00:43:36] Emma Pickett: with food. Yeah, good. I mean, yeah, you, I mean, you touched on social media. I mean, obviously, who knows what the world will be like when, when, you know, it's time for Millie to, to enter the world of social media.

I mean, if we go in the same direction that they're going in Australia, maybe she's not even going to get on social media until she's nearly adulthood if the law changes here as well. I mean, obviously, boys can be impacted by eating disorders as well. Um, what's Aidan's relationship with social media like?

Um, are you cautious about that with him or do you feel like he's in a, he's in a good place? Yeah. 

[00:44:04] Holly: He's 14 and he's only recently started to use social media over the last year. Um, and I kind of touched on that with him slowly. I think he was around 12 or 13 when he asked me if he could have TikTok. And I didn't know much about, I didn't have it myself at the time.

So I said, well, I'll, I'll download it on my phone and we'll have a look at it together. So, um, we, we ended up having these little TikTok nights where we'd sit and scroll through it together and have snacks and kind of make it a fun thing. Um, now he's 14, he, he's got it on his own phone and he, um, he's very open with us.

You know, we sit and we, we send each other funny videos or tag each other. I've said, as long as he has me and his dad on his friends list and keeps everything private and lets us kind of be involved with what he's doing on there. Then, you know, it's okay. I don't want to be a helicopter parent and completely take over and hover over everything that he's doing.

But of course you want to keep them safe at the same time, don't you? Yeah. 

[00:45:03] Emma Pickett: I love the idea of TikTok nights. 

[00:45:05] Holly: Yeah, TikTok. We still do it occasionally. Just, just to spend a bit of time together, to be honest. 

[00:45:10] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, the idea of bringing you into that world, I think that, I think that's, that's really special.

That's, yeah, as you say, we don't want to demonize it. I think if you go down the road of, Oh, it's, it's evil, it will always be negative. It will always be bad. You know, that's not necessarily going to be positive either because the things will happen away from us or hidden away from us. I mean, I'm a parent of, of teenagers as well.

And I also feel that social media has enormous positives about it. If you get your algorithm right, it can be a real gift. I mean, do you. Was social media ever an issue for you when you were unwell? Was that, was there a negative influence there from social media or that wasn't really a factor for you? 

[00:45:45] Holly: It didn't really affect me to be honest.

I mean, occasionally I would sit there and have a little scroll through. So I think sometimes it kind of distracted me from what was going on, but I didn't have any sort of negative impact. I'm the kind of person though that I can, I can switch it off. If I need to, if anything is going to potentially trigger me or make me, you know, feel having negative feelings, I can just switch it off.

I suppose some people can't. 

[00:46:10] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you mentioned that your, that your husband is obviously had a go with an express bottle, but Imogen was no thank you. Um, was anybody else in your life saying, you know, why are you breastfeeding? Breastfeeding is not, you know, you're putting pressure on yourself.

You need to focus on getting well. Did you have any, any wider messaging around breastfeeding? 

[00:46:29] Holly: I, to be honest, I, the only. The only kind of negative comments I've had about breastfeeding have been from older people, like the grandparents, my grandparents, um, my in laws. I think they come from the formula generation and they're very much, well, she's eating, she's eating food now, do you really need to still be breastfeeding her?

Or, you know, she, she's one, soon as she's turned one, she can drink out of a cup. Do you need to be breastfeeding her? Luckily, when people say things, it doesn't, it doesn't affect me, but that could potentially affect other people and maybe end their journey sooner than what they would want it to. I'm the type that can just turn around and say, yes, we do still need to.

[00:47:13] Emma Pickett: I get, I get the feeling Holly, that you're not a woman to be messed with. You are, you've got to, you've got to be a really strong person to, to have got through what you've got through and you've got to be really. Good at knowing what's right for you and knowing what's right for Imogen. So I'm guessing that you are an example of someone who would not take that pressure and let that affect them.

Yeah, I mean, you must be a very special, strong person to have, you know, continued through all these challenges and, and, you know, be in the place you are now. And I've, you know, I've, I've been seeing Imogen as we've been talking. I mean, she just looks like the happiest little person in the world. So whatever you've done, you've, you've done brilliantly.

Um, Is there anything we haven't talked about that you wanted to make sure we talked about today or anything we haven't covered? 

[00:47:58] Holly: Um, no, I think we've covered everything. 

[00:48:02] Emma Pickett: Oh, I just wanted a little shout out actually for your, for your local breastfeeding support in, in Lowestoft. Tell me a little bit more about that, about that team.

[00:48:10] Holly: Um, yeah, so they run, they run a lot of, uh, cafes, breastfeeding cafes around, around the town where you can, um, you can go to www. Lowestoft. com. If you need some support, say, for example, correcting a latch, that's when I needed that support to correct that latch, I went along and they're all really supportive there.

You know, there's no, no judgment at all. They've got their online Facebook groups as well for people that maybe can't get out and go to the physical groups. Uh, we can chat, chat on there between your mums and the mums can all talk or they can message the page privately, um, if they need any advice. 

[00:48:47] Emma Pickett: So that's lower, lower, stuffed and waveny.

Am I saying that right? Lower, stuffed and waveny breastfeeding support, um, who are also a charity and, uh, you know, just do amazing work and it's just the great team. So I'm really glad that you, you had the support from, from them as well. Thank you so much for sharing your story today, Holly. I really appreciate it.

And, um, and I'm just, yeah, I'm in awe of, of how you've managed to get through everything. And also just really grateful to hear that you got the support you wanted. I mean, in contrast from, you know, your experience with your first and trying to breastfeed Aidan and not getting that, that support there.

And I'm so glad that, that things have turned around and that you were able to have the ongoing support that you have now. Thank you so much for sharing your story today. 

[00:49:30] Holly: Thank you.

[00:49:35] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at emmapicketibclc and on Twitter at makesmilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.