Dads and breastfeeding with Scott Mair - The Sequel

For part two of our Q&A session all about dads and partners, I’m once again joined by the brilliant Scott Mair. 

In this part, we answer questions on natural term breastfeeding, dealing with comments from family members, where to go for advice, and sex and intimacy after birth. I’m grateful to Scott for joining me in some honest and open, and not always easy, conversations.

Find out more from Scott on Instagram @‌fatherhood__solutions_

My latest book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett and I'm a Lactation Consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing. And also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. This is Scott and Emma the sequel. I feel like we need a little theme tune or some sort of jingle at this point. Um, if you listen to our first episode, you know that I'm talking to Scott Mayer, who is the director of Fatherhood Solutions. And he is a trainer in mental health for paternal mental health, particularly, and also a parent educator.

And if you listen to our first episode, we talked a lot in that episode about early breastfeeding and getting breastfeeding off to a start and some of those early parenting challenges and stresses and particularly kind of focusing on new dads because that's, that's the idea of these sessions, helping dads to be part of that, that breastfeeding and early parenting world.

But I'm aware that lots of people listening won't be dads, they'll also be partners and mums who are wanting to hear how to help dads be part of that world. So welcome to everybody who's listening. Thanks very much for joining me again, Scott. I really appreciate it. 

[00:01:43] Scott Mair: No, it's a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:45] Emma Pickett: No problem. So we got half with you the questions last time and then I said, right, let's stop. Can I have you for another session? I cheekily asked you while we were recording. You said thank you. Yes, we can do that. So I'm literally just going to carry on with the questions we were looking at before. So we were focusing last week a lot on early breastfeeding and this session will probably talk more about later breastfeeding because lots of the questions that came up were about toddler breastfeeding and natural term breastfeeding.

But we'll sort of mix it up a little bit. So let's go with this next question. So it says, How do I support my partner who has tried feeding herself, but it did not work and she feels like she has failed? It's making her depressed and I'm not sure how to help so I started with a nice light one for us there Um nice easy one So I'm guessing that means that this particular mom wanted to breastfeed and and that didn't work out for lots of different reasons and and This dad is wanting to know how to support their partner with that.

Have you got any immediate thoughts around that? I'm 

[00:02:46] Scott Mair: gonna mix this up a little bit I'm going to ask you to go first, as in what it, what would be needed to feel as the mother in that point, and then I'll, I'll give my bit after. 

[00:02:58] Emma Pickett: Sure. So I think. With a sort of professional hat on, that word depressed is a bit of a red flag, so I would just want to check that this dad knows that he doesn't have to be the only support available.

And, and it's completely valid to help his partner find professional support. And it may be that that is some kind of talking therapy or, you know, debriefing with a lactation consultant or, he doesn't have to do this alone, I think is, is point one. Point two, I think is that what she doesn't necessarily want to hear, and I'm basing that comment on having had this conversation lots of times with lots of different women.

What she doesn't want to hear is, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter, it's not important, you know, I had only had formula and I'm super healthy and, you know, granny down the road never had any breast, you know, never breastfed and all her kids are super healthy. It sounds like that would be a useful thing to say, but actually that is dismissing at the end of the day some deep, heavy feelings and it may mean that she doesn't come to you later on when she's still struggling.

So I think the first thing is to acknowledge that this matters and this is important. And even if you think it's helpful to talk about statistics and, you know, formula containing lots of valuable ingredients, that probably isn't what she needs to hear first of all. I think she needs validation and to understand that these feelings, you know, come from a real place and a genuine place and that you have empathy for them and you understand them.

Um, that would be my starting point. What would you add to that, Scott? 

[00:04:40] Scott Mair: I'd add, wow, what an answer, is what I would add to that. Because I think we are, I think sometimes it's hard because we have to do the wrong thing for the right reasons and the right thing for the wrong reasons and sometimes we get them mixed up.

And I think a lot of why this conversation is important is that the mistakes that are sometimes made that cause the harm, it's not always from malice. It's from not, not knowing what you've just said is what a lot of dads would probably say when I have conversations with them is, in hindsight, I know what I should have done, but we don't have hindsight at the time.

And it is trying to ease the pain by almost dismissing. The importance of it, which I think makes it feel so much worse. And I can only say that from an outsider, but I think what you've said, um, it's an amazing message to give is that, yes, I don't want to use the word failure. I think we have to get away from that.

Um, because I think that does a lot of damage as well, but it is something that somebody wanted to do and there is emotions and there's feelings and it's everything that you do that when we're trying to have conversations with dads, particularly as there is so much more. to feeding than feeding. And I think that that part of it is so important when that it's not gone the way that you'd hoped it would.

So yeah, the validation, you know, sitting there being there, holding that space. We are fixers. We've had this conversation before. And I say this every time I work, um, with women and men, and that is 99. 9 percent of what I work with is trying to explain that mentality of let me fix this. And the, the, the feeling like just sitting there and being that, um, I know this is hard.

I'm really sorry. It hasn't worked out. And just allowing that process at first, before you look at where we're going to go next, what's our alternate options, is just accepting they're allowed to feel those feels. At that time, it feels like you're doing nothing, but you're actually doing everything and that would be the sort of message that I would give is just allow it time to sit in the fact that this is what I really wanted to do.

It's really hard that I can't, there's lots of different reasons, which you're the expert on, not me in, in why it's not worked, whatever that reason is, they're allowed to deal with that and process it and dare I say, even sort of grieve the process they thought they wanted. They need that time. And I think we're too quick to let you just said, Ah, but it'll be okay because I was formula fed and I'm okay.

And such and such was or I've, I spoke to somebody who's got four Children and two were breastfed and two formula fed and they both, they all turned out the same. And that, like you said, that's not what you really want to hear in that moment. It's what we want to say. And that's not always helpful. 

[00:07:13] Emma Pickett: Yeah, nobody hears that message and goes, Oh, okay, absolutely.

Fair enough. All my feelings have gone away. Thank you. Great. Let's let's nip down to the supermarket that that never achieves that all that achieves is a mother thinking, Okay, so we're not going to have this conversation again. I, I, I, I, but not to say she won't get where he's coming from, and she won't get that there's, there's love behind those words, but she'll think, you know, he doesn't get this.

He doesn't understand this. 

[00:07:39] Scott Mair: That is so important because what we're also doing in this, if we're using this as an example of say, this is baby number one, is that we are trying to lay foundations for the relationship going forward, um, but you are trying to plant those seeds that I got you. Whatever it is, whatever we go through, you know, I want to be that person and I know some people don't and everyone's got friends and family and different people that they go to, but in the beginning you're trying to sort of lay those foundations of whatever we go through, I'm here, whereas if that is sort of patronizing or judgment is felt at the first real hurdle, you are maybe shutting that conversation off at a later point.

And I don't think that's really what you want in that situation. So it is a much bigger Yeah. issue rather than just what you're dealing with is just letting them know that when things become challenging, I can have these conversations, I can be supportive. And I think that's a really important message again that you've raised, Emma, is that this is a bigger than just that conversation.

And that's the bit that I think we sometimes get blindsided, particularly as new parents, because you are in tunnel vision, of course you are. Um, and it's just trying to open that periphery up a little bit to other conversations is important. 

[00:08:49] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah, I mean I, I think, you know, listen to this question, let's assume that that, that woman has had all the right breastfeeding support, that she's spoken to the experts, she's not just had, you know, one conversation with a helpline, you know, you've gone through that whole process and breastfeeding hasn't worked out.

We want to check that she has had the right support. But I'd also say that It may never be fixed, and that's scary to hear, but I actually work with women who, you know, years later, I mean, Amy Brown has written a really useful book about breastfeeding grief and trauma, and she talks about people who responded to her research who, you know, decades later, were still hit by this.

And that pain may never entirely go away, even if there's a subsequent breastfeeding experience that's really positive. And actually, as you say, that's really scary for a partner to hear that that could be the case. But to know that and accept that and be prepared to live with that, I think is important.

Can I ask you a question? Yeah. 

[00:09:41] Scott Mair: If that happens, say for example, because this is something that we're starting to see more in conversation, particularly with dads or sometimes with couples, if their first attempt at breastfeeding didn't work, but then they try it a second time round and it does, does that Ease.

What happened the first time? Make it worse or is it 50 50? 

[00:10:01] Emma Pickett: So, I would say generally that can be really healing. That can feel really positive and that can be really healing. But, there's a whole bunch of new stuff that comes up. So, I quite often talk to mums who are thrilled that it's worked out a second time.

but then have a whole bunch of complexity. I mean, I'm going to use the word guilt, but that's not a great word about, Oh my God, well, why couldn't I make this work first time? Did I just not find the right person? Did I not go to the right group? Did I not make the right phone call? You know, what did I do wrong?

And, and, and also that concept of it not being fair for the first child and, and feeling guilty that the second child's getting lots of breast milk when the first child didn't. And cause you, you know, you so want to try and make sure that everyone's getting the same deal roughly. So, so you sort of forgiving yourself for what you didn't know first time around is a big part of that journey.

So even though you might think, Oh, breastfeeding success tick, you know, that, that trauma has gone away. There is a whole bunch of more complex feelings that come up that need to be acknowledged and often worked through as well. Um, yeah, not, not necessarily as straightforward as, you know, fixing it and feeling better about it.

Okay, let's talk about the next question. So, um, My wife always talked about breastfeeding for a year and now she wants to continue and there really isn't an end date in mind. I'm not sure how I feel about that. I don't know anyone else that's breastfeeding a toddler. I want to support her, but I don't know how to feel more comfortable.

[00:11:27] Scott Mair: Again, quite a common one. Um, we've, we've discussed this in the previous session in a roundabout way in terms of communication and we've just touched on it then. Um, it is. A conversation that you have to be part of, but again, it's fully understanding all of the benefits. Defeating means that you can understand the benefits to it being prolonged longer.

My, this is just my take on it, and some people won't agree with me, and that's fine. I never ever really wanted to make it look like there was a shelf life on this. And that there is an end date, um, we always had that conversation, but I was led by Sarah of they will know when they don't want it anymore is the sort of, so my boys all between two and my youngest was three when he sort of self weaned himself.

And I remember how difficult that stage was when it was like, I don't want it anymore. And it was almost like that rejection that Sarah felt. And you know, I think to, to impose that in my opinion, I'm not saying it's unfair and everyone's got their own opinions and that's fine. Um, it's quite difficult. So it is having that communication.

It is trying to be supportive, being able to express how you feel is okay. It's how you deliver it, when you deliver it. Um, and. Understanding that you might get your point across, but you've got to listen to theirs. And again, research, you know, look into it. All the experts that you've mentioned, talk to them.

Help them make you feel more comfortable about the benefits of it. And, you know, just having that better understanding of why this is important to them that are doing it. Why it's beneficial, and what Your reasons are for having that objection that yes, we we had this plan of one. It's gone past what's changed What is the issue with that time other than the plan has changed and if it's got something to do with that Then again, it's understanding the benefits the pros and cons and having that conversation But I'm not going to sit here and say that it's 50 decision because I don't necessarily believe that personally, but I do think it's trying to be more involved in You The why, what's the negative side, what's the pluses to this, um, and yeah, sort of sat having that conversation as much as possible, but doing your own research and speaking to the experts as well, so that when you're having that conversation, it's not just, well, I think I feel it's, this is what I found out and this is why I have concerns because you can back up with a little bit of substance and it doesn't become quite confrontational then.

It becomes a, this is why I maybe have a concern with it, or this is why I'd like to have that conversation, and, and yeah, that's, that's what I would, that's what I would suggest. 

[00:14:03] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, I, this, this question, this wording comes directly from a dad. Yeah. You know, how great is it that he ends with, I, you know, I want to support her, but I don't know how to feel more comfortable.

I mean, that is somebody who is, who's in listening mode and, and wants to get to a different place, which is super positive. I talk to women who want to end breastfeeding and sometimes they tell me it's because they've got pressure from their partner and it's really, really difficult for them to go through the weaning process if they don't feel in the core of their bones that they want to end breastfeeding themselves.

And what happens is that when people try and wean because of pressure from others, it goes horribly, badly wrong, often can be quite damaging to the relationship with the, with the toddler. And, and those women are more likely to have what we call post weaning blues, um, where we have a little bit of a depressive episode at the end of breastfeeding.

So I would just say from the point of view of your partner, just, you may think you're going to make life easier by ending breastfeeding, but you actually could be making life more complicated for yourself. Um, in terms of, you know, your partner having an emotional reaction that you're not expecting, your toddler struggling emotionally, their relationship changing.

That toddler may, you know, have more meltdowns, their sleep may be more disrupted. Um, so first of all, I would just say, what problems do you think you have right now that are because of breastfeeding? And are they actually because of breastfeeding? You know, if your toddler's not eating a lot of solid food or they're waking up at night.

Do you know that's breastfeeding related? Do you think weaning is going to make life easier? Just, just check that that's necessarily the case. Um, and I'd also say we live in a society where we think breasts are about sex. We think breasts are sexual. We've absorbed that message throughout our lives. It's completely natural.

That, you know, as a dad, as your child gets older, you'd have some subconscious feelings that come from that, that messaging. So just, just check yourself and just think, hang on, where is this coming from? Is this coming from a place of science? Is this coming from something that really is about making my family's life easier?

Or am I just feeling a bit weirded out because I live in a world where it's not normal? What often happens is that mums, even the mums that have gone back to work are still very in touch with the breastfeeding world through social media. You know, they're reading the posts, they know who the experts are, they're reading the information.

And dads don't tend to keep in touch with that world in the same way that we'll talk about in a minute. Um, and so you may not be as well informed as your partner and they may be the expert in this, not just because it's their own body, but because they literally have learned more about it and taken more time.

So, so be in listening mode. And I just say one more thing. Anybody that sets a breastfeeding goal when they're pregnant or when their baby's super little, it doesn't mean anything because you, as soon as that child gets older, the world of breastfeeding changes. It's not about milk anymore. It's not about food anymore.

It becomes about connections and emotions and, and the breastfeeding relationship evolves. So. You can't really hold anybody to something they said in the first few weeks or even the first few months because, you know, children get older one day at a time. Um, so it's literally comes down to, let's look at my child.

If they could talk to me right now, what would they say? If they could be part of this conversation, what would their opinion be? How do they feel about breastfeeding? What does breastfeeding mean to them? Put yourself in your child's shoes. Um, and as you say, it's just about listening, listening, listening and talking and trying to understand.

And, and one other thing I'd say this, I don't know if you feel this is a bit weird, but sometimes talking and having really intense face to face conversations is not the best time to do it. It's certainly not the best time to do it if you, if you're snapping because your child's just fed again and it's wound you up.

You need to have that conversation in the right place in the right time. And sometimes that might be even through text, you know, some couples do better texting. So, you know, write, write an email, write a letter, go for a walk. Don't necessarily have an intense conversation at 11 o'clock at night because the toddler's woken up and you're feeling angry.

Just check you're in the right place to have that conversation. 

[00:18:03] Scott Mair: What a brilliant tip. Um, and I could vouch for that 100 percent because that's what we do. I'm very good. Obviously, we, we over talked last time, which is why we got to do a part two. So I'm quite comfortable talking. Um, but Sarah sometimes finds those conversations difficult.

So that, writing it down, putting it in a text message, or if we're trying to have that conversation, creating that space in a comfortable way. Um, I can't talk about that right now. But then send that text message or send that email. So it's not saying this won't be addressed. It's just this maybe isn't the right time.

And I think sometimes it, you can feel that you're not being heard then, or your needs are not being met, or that you're being rejected. So again, we've, we've emphasised it as much as we can. I think the, the, the communication, how important it is. But I think it's, you'll get more out of allowing a person to express their, their feelings in a way they're comfortable with.

rather than trying to get them in the way that you are, because sometimes they're very different, you know. We all have different ways of expressing our emotions. We all have different love languages. Sometimes we have the same, but quite often we have different ones. And it's, you know, you're trying to force something that is making the situation worse.

And I think that goes back to your previous point as well, that it's a lot of outside noise when it comes to one's children or a certain age in terms of breastfeeding. And that weirded out is a perfect way to describe it. And it is friends, it is family. They're saying, Oh, they're a little bit big for that.

So the dad's hearing it and it's feeding into some of those uncomfortableness or even insecurities around about that situation. So it's just be aware of how much of this is your voice and your concerns and how much of it is coming from somewhere else. But yeah, I love that message about communicating in the way that you're comfortable with because that's definitely the best way to move forward.

[00:19:44] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And one other thing that I know sounds really obvious, but I think we sometimes forget. Don't assume a young child can't pick up on the vibes of a conversation, so I would never talk about this in front of a child, even a child as young as, you know, 12, 13, 14 months. I still wouldn't have this conversation in front of them because if they pick up the vibe, daddy doesn't like me having milkies, that's not going to help your relationship with your child.

And, and you need to be able to, and also your partner's going to go into sort of child protective mode. It's, they're not going to be in listening zone because the kid's around. So, so make sure you have the conversation when it's just the two of you as well. I think that's really important. 

[00:20:20] Scott Mair: That is a really good point.

[00:20:22] Emma Pickett: Okay. So interesting question, which is the complete flip. Um, this came through from a mom. She said, my husband wants me to decide alone about when to stop breastfeeding. But I feel it should be a joint discussion to help decide what's best for our family. How do we talk about when to stop breastfeeding together?

I have to say that, that question surprised me. I was not expecting to get that question, but I'm glad I did because I think it's a perspective we don't often talk about. What do you feel when you hear that? 

[00:20:52] Scott Mair: I think it's quite nice actually. Um, but again, so much of the work that I do in, in and around about the parenting discussions is we're trying to create that balance because we're trying to take some of the pressure off where it's always being put.

And I think sometimes whether it's just, it's, it's comfortable, whether it's because it's what we're used to in this environment we've been in, we tend to, at the first opportunity, we try and put that back. And it might be coming from, again, from a very nice place, but it's also sometimes Bit of an easy way out.

So it depends on the situation. It depends on what's happening, but that support is important. Otherwise, it just feels like you're on your own and it's a bit like we talked about in the last part when you're doing the night time feeds or when things are difficult and it's sometimes we have Professionals that will look to remove dad from that situation or if you've got to go out for work go and sleep in another room And it's again, it's putting all of it on one person and it's not it's quite nice to see that because I think it probably happens more Then we, then we think is that I would like to be able to have this conversation together in her mind.

She's probably got an idea, um, and it's sometimes with the people that we are in relationships with, with our people, we need that reassurance. Even if we're 99 percent certain that we're making the right decision, and I'm not comparing it in any way, shape, or form. But if, if I'm sending an email or sending a text message, I might know I've got my point across.

This is what I want to say. But I just want to have that safety of, Sarah, do you think I've got this right? And it's, I know what I'm doing, or I'm making a decision, or whether it's work related, family related, friends, whatever it is, we just need to lean on that person just to make sure. And then it's, if I have made a decision wrong, Then you can support me for it because we've made that decision together.

What I don't want to feel is I've made a decision, it's not worked out. I then get the blame as well as the pressure of making the decision. So I think it's quite wise. Even like I said, if you know deep down that you're pretty sure what you want to do, I think being able to have that conversation, it does help because it brings them in to decision makings, which again are things you're going to have to do going forward.

Um, as parents, you're going to have to make decisions together. I think it's, it's quite healthy, but in the same way, I wouldn't really want the dads that I work with to be putting too much pressure either way on that decision, and it's a very hard line to find. Um, and that balance is difficult. And I think the fact that she's starting that conversation maybe helps find that balance rather than putting your big size 12s in it sometimes when you shouldn't.

Um, so that, so it is nice, but you're right. It is, it is a little bit surprising. It probably happens more and maybe we do need a, a campaign around post and, and online or just something that starts that conversation about how to have that conversation. It's the same. We see it quite a lot with what's going to happen around contraception after you've had a baby.

We have that conversation one way quite a lot, that, oh, this is your choice, and again I work with dads that I know do this of, well, it's her decision to decide what we're going to do and it's, well, not really, it's a part of a conversation that you've got to be there to be supportive. So again, it's just trying to take a little bit of that pressure off.

Like you've mentioned, if it is too early, there's going to be an emotional fallout and they may not be prepared for that themselves. So being part of that process, then again, you're just offering as much support as you can and sort of trying to go on this journey together. And I think that's the important part, but it is nice.

To have a question come from, from that point of view, for sure. 

[00:24:15] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that word alone is standing out for me in the question. She says, my husband wants me to decide alone and I can, I can hear, I can hear the dad saying, oh mate, it's not my call. I really, you know, I want you to feel like you can decide.

I mean, you can see he's coming from absolutely a place of genuine desire to empower her and he doesn't want to overstep. But she's saying, just help me. And that doesn't mean. 50 50 waiting. It doesn't mean my my opinion matters as much as yours. It just means come in and help me come in and talk about it with me.

Listen to what I'm saying. Reflect it back to me. Help me make a decision. But I need your help to make a decision. So to say, Oh, no, it's nothing to do with me. It's just just you in a way could feel a bit dismissive. It could feel like he's saying it's not important. And what she's saying is she just wants help.

That doesn't mean she's saying you tell me get the calendar out. Put your finger on a date. She's saying me. Please be part of this. I need your help. Um, and yeah, I mean, I think it's just about her talking and saying what she feels and saying, you know, what do you think? Like the same way you said about writing the email and getting Sarah to check it.

Ask her to say what she thinks and then see what he feels about it and get him to reflect her ideas back at her. But not feel it has to be a 50 50 decision because technically it probably is going to be difficult for it to be 50 50. It has to be ultimately her decision. But, but, you know, if she wants him to be part of it, that's great.

And obviously that means she values his opinion and he should feel able to express it. And I 

[00:25:42] Scott Mair: think that's a really important point that. Again, I, I, I don't claim to be perfect and it may, I'm sitting here looking at everything from the lens of the professional sometimes and when you're in it, it's more difficult, but I think that is a really important part that we're trying to bring dads particularly and partners into this conversation more to offer that support to create that platform of unity, which is so fundamentally important to the relationship going forward.

But, yeah. It really isn't really a 50 50 decision. We know that. It's just trying to know that I'm here, I'm holding It's just like the The hug that sometimes you know that you just know you need that hug and it's just it's we don't have to say anything It's just I know somebody's there And when I'm going for a difficult time having that hog so that I can just think clearly and I've got that support I've got those arms around me while I process this and make that decision.

Sometimes that it's just showing up. It's just I'm here I'm here, like you said, to bounce ideas back off and maybe steer conversations. Plus, quite often, this is the person that knows you the best. So they are just sort of mirroring back and, and helping you deal and process things. So I think it is really important that we do stress that.

I'm not, I've never, and I hope I never come across in any conversation I've ever had that this is ever really, particularly a 50 50 decision. Um, but it is. Somewhere that you need to be able to find that platform to be that support to sit and to sort of bounce those ideas and even the insecurities and the concerns, you know, why do you feel like that?

Why do you think this is an issue, you know, and just dig a little bit deeper, not having to say too much, not having to give your opinion. Again, it's difficult for us as men to not want to fix problems, but just to sit there and say, okay, why? Well, if we did this, what's the worst thing that could happen?

If we didn't, what's the worst thing that could happen? And just allow them all the noise that's sometimes going on in your head, particularly as a new parent, particularly as a new mom, or at that stage where you've got to a year or a little bit further. All the noise, all the outside influence, all these other voices that are bouncing around, just getting the chance to get them out and talk and get it off your chest and then be able to sit and sort of process it and I think that's the bit that we play is a person that could just almost like a befriender can sit there in in that sort of point and listen.

And just bat back what needs to be batted back and come to that decision. And we all know evidently that most of the time, if we go down the child led route, it takes not a little bit of the pressure off. Um, but it, again, it just creates that, we're in this together. We'll be led by, or I'll be led by you, but evidently we'll be led by the child to a certain degree, um, and that's the bit that is difficult for us as men, because we do, I keep saying it, we look to fix problems, we look to solve it, we look to not say what to do, and I think sometimes we get accused of that, and in some cases, probably that is the case, Emma, but most of the time, It's just the practical mind, it's the way that we are, is we look for that solution, which is why sometimes we've drop off in early breastfeeding when we've done work in certain areas where it was brought to couples, a lot of it has came from this isn't working, you're upset, that emotional aspect that you've happened, it's sore, it's draining.

Or formula feed. And it's not because they don't support breastfeeding. It's because that will fix the problem. It doesn't, all the time. But from a mental point of view, it does, because it's the breastfeeding that's causing how you feel. So I can take that away. That bit is hard to bypass, I think, sometimes, is they give me something practical.

So again, it's the messaging. It's the conversations. It's the experts. It's the services in the community that are working that can just help with, that is your practical part. That is your fixing it. Is being there to help sort of navigate this and steer and just be that person that I've got you. Like I said, I use that phrase quite a lot, you know, um, I'm here, I'll catch you if you need me to as such, but you know, you're not going for this alone, which is the bit that I picked out that, that you said, cause that, that's the bit that struck with me is that she's obviously feeling that word a lot.

[00:29:44] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I think sometimes we can get into a little bit of a pattern where if someone does continue breastfeeding past infancy, Sometimes the emotional load of parenting can end up falling on the breastfeeding mum. And we'll talk in a minute about how to kind of rewrite that balance. And, and you don't have to end breastfeeding to rewrite that balance.

Um, so the sort of toddler version of the, you know, let's just move to formula. The toddler version of that is, well, the kid's waking up. There's a bit of separation anxiety. He won't settle with anyone else. Let's just stop breastfeeding. Let's just see if that fixes it. Um, you know, he doesn't eat very well during the day, let's just stop breastfeeding.

Again, looking for that sudden fixing it, where actually it's more complex than that. Little people are more complex than that. So, so just check that you don't think ending breastfeeding is a solution to any problem, if the problem is something else.

A little advert, just to say that you can buy my four books online. You've Got It In You, a positive guide to breastfeeding, is 99p as an e book, and that's aimed at expectant and new parents. The Breast Book, published by Pinter and Martin, is a guide for 9 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed.

And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months. and supporting the transition from breastfeeding. For a 10 percent discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley Press, that's uk. jkp. com and use the code MMPE10. Makes milk. Pick it, Emma. 10. Yeah, talking about what you were saying about that outside noise, the next question touches on that.

He says, I'm supportive of my wife's decision to continue breastfeeding to natural term. So natural term is what we, increasingly what we're saying when we talk about child led feeding or, or children continuing on babyhood. So we don't talk about extended breastfeeding, we're talking about natural term breastfeeding quite a lot.

But members of the family are starting to make comments that aren't positive. What's the best way to handle this? 

[00:31:49] Scott Mair: My take on this is that you are the protective shield. I think in that instances, those comments have to stop with you to a degree. Um, but you have to challenge it, you have to push it back.

Um, I think it's difficult and when we, again, this is not meant as criticism, but when we speak to couples or when I've spoke to mums about dads, the dad and his mum, so the mother in law to the breastfeeding mother, for example, um, and that he doesn't challenge a lot of those comments. Um, and he lets them say, ah, it's my mum, it's my mum, and that does so much damage.

Um, and we sort of sit and, and, and we sort of sit in that quite a lot and have this conversation is I just wish he would sort of stand up for me and sort of push that back. And then, you know, when we do these sort of relationship parts of the sessions that I do with dads at any stage of the parenting journey, this is the one bit that we talk about.

And there's a quote that you'll see all over social media, um, and I genuinely believe in this, and everyone's got their own opinions, is that the family you create is more important than the family you came from. And I think that sometimes in this instance, it's, you can say these things, you sometimes have to show it.

And I think that being that supportive network, and not necessarily doing it for sure, but it's sometimes if she's aware that you're sort of being that supportive network, and you're pushing back against the outside world, um, not in a protective way, but just in a, this is what we've decided. It's our choice.

I don't really care what the outside world say. This is the decision that we've made and we'll live by it. It's easy to say that. I think sometimes it's quite difficult to demonstrate with your own family. Maybe not as difficult with her family or their family, but with your own, I think it's sometimes that If I push back, if I, if I challenge my parents or my mom or my siblings, then it's like I'm disrespecting them or I'm forgetting where I came from.

And I think that's not just a breastfeeding thing, that's a parenting in general. We, we find that difficult. And it's harder if maybe dad's trying to push back against his mom who didn't breastfeed him, and maybe doesn't fully understand breastfeeding either. So this place is sometimes coming from ignorance.

And it does need to be challenged and addressed and you know, this is our decision and I want you to respect it. I want you to appreciate it. Sometimes you don't have to be as forceful as, you know, if you can't get on board, then there's going to be a problem. The relationship where you can't come round, but sometimes I've seen it lead to that.

You know, you have to sometimes, where's, where's your lane in the sand? You know, the draw it and stick to it would be, would be my opinion. 

[00:34:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, I've, I have definitely seen relationships really breaking down because older family members have said comments about breastfeeding and didn't realize how much that mattered and didn't realize what damage they were causing until it was too late.

So actually, if you're the son speaking up, you know, talking up to your mom and standing up against your mom. That's a scary thing to do, but in the long term you could really be saving your relationship with your mum and your, and your mum's relationship with her grandchild and her daughter in law. Um, you know, the long term impact of not doing that could be far scarier.

Um, and actually what you were saying about how the mum may not have had a positive breastfeeding experience herself, I think that's, it's really important to remember that the older generation who were breastfeeding, you know, in the seventies and eighties and nineties, very rarely met their breastfeeding goals.

You know, it was one of the lowest times for breastfeeding rates in the world and the UK in those decades. So most of them probably didn't. And if they did breastfeed, they were told to do it every four hours. They were told not to breastfeed overnight, their babies were taken away from them in hospital and put in separate rooms.

And now to see somebody, you know, in the 2020s breastfeeding responsibly and co sleeping and, and breastfeeding to natural term feels like a bit of a kick in the teeth. You know, even if you're that woman is not aware of that consciously, subconsciously, every time you breastfeed your two year old, you're saying, and you didn't do this and you didn't do the right thing.

Um, so, so often older women have got these quite deep reactions that they cannot even process. They're not even aware that they're reacting to it. Um, so we, we have to have some empathy for where those comments are coming from and accept that sometimes coming from a place of pain, particularly for a generation for mothering was very, very important.

Perhaps they didn't necessarily have a career in quite the same way people do in these decades. But despite that empathy, you have to sometimes be brave and what you were saying about being that protective shield from the very beginning, from the first day of coming home from hospital. That is, I think, one of the most important things a dad can be.

You are the buffer. You are the one that, that protects from the comments and, and the pressure and the, you know, the, the, the mother in law who wants to come and visit on day two and, and your partner's still really struggling with breastfeeding. Um, you know, you are the one who says, actually, mom, do you, we're gonna leave another couple of days if that's okay.

Or, you know, we're gonna, you ask you to stay in a hotel, or we're gonna, you know, whatever you're, you're gonna do, you, you know, you speaking up is so precious and, and so valuable. So really helping your partner to, to create the right environment and, and that again, it's, it's about the child. It's not just you're protecting your wife or your partner.

But your, your little two year old who's breastfeeding, your little 18 month old who's breastfeeding also needs you to be brave for them. You know, they don't want a relationship with their granny where their granny wrinkles her nose every time they breastfeed. They don't want to be told off for breastfeeding.

They want to feel safe with your mum in the, in the years to come. So you're actually not only supporting your wife, you're supporting your child as well by, by being brave. Um, so yeah, it is, and sometimes again, it's writing a letter because it may be that it's saying something, they immediately jump to the defensive.

So writing a letter that you know, that's going to be read a couple of times, you know, particularly around, you know, Christmas time, we've, we've just gone past having the Christmas holidays. That's often a time when people are really struggled, you know, I often say, write a letter before you go to someone's house about the fact you're still breastfeeding, you'll be co sleeping.

You'd rather not talk about it in front of the child. If you have any questions, let me know. But that's what's gonna be happening, you know, and that letter could come from either the mum or the dad. But yeah, we need to be a bit brave. 

[00:37:58] Scott Mair: That's a great tip. That letter in advance. That's a really, really good tip, actually.

I've never heard anybody say it before. I think that is because it You're almost from the get go, you're, you're dampening the occasion while you're there and it does put things on a defensive and I think from a relationship point of view, what can happen if you feel like is you just retreat to the room that you're staying in and then you're not actually doing the thing that you went there for.

Um, and if, if they can't get on board then. You've made the decision beforehand. We don't go. And I think sometimes that's a difficult decision to make as well. Um, especially around the holidays or the amount of conversations I've heard the last few weeks, um, with dads, whether it's in the WhatsApp groups or in one to one or in group settings of so much stress.

And pressure at this time of year. And sometimes you've got to have three different dinners on Christmas day. Cause you've got to go to everybody's house or somebody feels put out. And there's lots of pressures. Then there's the financial pressures and lots of other things. And trying to get everything ready for Christmas is hard enough.

If it's your first Christmas, or even if it's not, there's a lot of extra pressure. Then you add that layer of the core sleeping, or the feeding, or the fact that the little one's a little bit, um, older than the rest of the family would like them to be for feeding, and you're gonna feel that judgment and stress on top of a stressful period.

Um, it can almost, it can ruin. It can ruin Christmas. So I think getting in front of it. Oh my God, what a great tip that is. I'm stealing that one, Emma. Yeah, 

[00:39:26] Emma Pickett: steal it. Also, also the version of that is the pre summer holiday letter. We're going away for a couple of weeks. We're going to be staying with our in laws.

Write a letter before you go and say, right, this is the story. This is what we're doing. Or, you know, he doesn't eat very much for lunch and I want you to be okay with that. Please don't pressure him to eat solid food or yes, we do co sleep or yes, I will go up with him to help him fall asleep at nighttime and I won't come back for an hour.

This is us, you know, and again, if you've got any questions, let me know, but this is going to be us and, and so laying down the rules about, you know, what you, what you need from them, I think is really important. 

[00:39:56] Scott Mair: And that, that's all parenting. I mean, that is, Oh my God, because I think there is so much and we've not really got into this because it hasn't particularly relevant, but we do a lot of work.

Parents that have got children with neurodiversity, same sort of thing, you know, things are different and if the people that you're going to stay with the family members and sometimes that outer network that haven't had a child with autism, for example, they've all got opinions and and it can be exhausting having to constantly defend yourself while making these decisions.

And it can be a little bit draining. It can be quite tiring. Parenting is in general, but when you're constantly Defending every decision that you've made to other people, it makes parenting so much harder. So I think in general, whatever stage you're at, I think that is a fantastic idea to sort of get in front of that, that this is what we do, this is how we do it, and we're looking forward to coming and if there's any particular objections, then it's okay.

We'll stay somewhere else. I think that is such a really, really good positive message to put out. It's just empowering to parents that. People say it all the time, don't they? Um, you know, and I've sat there with lots of families and it's what do you want to do? Oh, and well, my mom said this and yeah, but what do you want to do?

And I think sometimes we very rarely follow what we actually want to do. And I think by doing that and detailing it out, this is us, take it or leave it, you know, and I think it's, but it is brave. I think you used that word earlier on. I think doing that with our families, making that stand, we do find quite difficult.

So writing it down or putting it in a letter is, oh, what a fantastic idea. 

[00:41:31] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. And I think also I think when we're new parents in the first few weeks and months, our opinions are just as valid as in year two or year three. And sometimes when you're surrounded by lots of people who've parented over many years and have lots of older children, you can think, Oh, well, they bet they know best.

They must know that, you know, I don't want to start solids at five months, but they're saying I should. So maybe they do know better. No, you know, better, you know, better. So whatever pressure you're getting from someone else, remember that this is your child and you make the decisions. You decide what they eat, where they sleep, when they sleep.

And even if someone else is parented for 30 years, that does not mean they know that your child better than you do. And you just have to believe that you've got that, that core instinct that is right. And, and as I said, be brave, because you only do this once. Your child is only going to have this Christmas once, or this holiday once.

They're only going to be this age once. You can't reverse things. You can't go back. And if you set a precedent in the very early days of, well actually mum, We do things a bit differently and that this is why that's going to make life so much easier when your child is five and six and seven or potty training or having a meltdown or, you know, going out with their boyfriend.

I mean, you're going to be able to set some boundaries which say, I'm the one that makes the call mum. Thanks, I appreciate your input, but we're going to decide on the nursery. We're going to decide when I go back to work, you know, you're just because if you let them in and those very early decisions, it's going to be difficult to reverse that.

So, so, so yeah, bravery, bravery. Let's look at the next question. This is a meaty one. Our toddler is breastfeeding and we're finding it a real struggle to get him to accept me to do bedtime. So me being a dad that's not breastfeeding. He gets really angry and we're not sure when it's right to keep pushing it.

Any tips? 

[00:43:16] Scott Mair: Hard one. And to be fair, I could sit here and give all this wonderful advice. This was one of my biggest challenges. So I'm quite glad to see this question. Um, I struggled with it as well and fought against it and tried to push past it. This is my dad take on this. It's not the professional one.

It's my dad take. Um, I learned not somewhat pick your battles because you don't want to put all the pressure on the other parent again. There is lots of other things that need to get done. Do the other things it is what I did and and if it you can introduce it slowly Or set a timer, is what I used to do, is I would say, right, I'll give it 15 minutes, I'll give it half an hour, whatever your timer is, and I'll try all the things that I know, I'll try my different tips, and I'll do things in a similar sort of way, as what mum would do, and see if it worked, it didn't work, so then I thought, what I'll do, is I'll do it in a completely different way, so it's quite obviously different.

And see if that works. It worked to a degree. But I always found that when mommy did it, particularly if they were still feeding, when Sarah was still feeding my boys, if mommy did the final Sort of, end of the day, sleep, last feed, last put down to bed, last settle. My boys slept better. They just slept better and we can joke about it because when I do bedtime stories or whatever it may be, I do the animations and the voices and I become the Gruffalo.

And Sarah banned me at one point from doing bedtime stories past three o'clock in the afternoon. Too 

[00:44:47] Emma Pickett: interesting. Because 

[00:44:48] Scott Mair: it's too stimulating. Whereas Sarah would go up and tell a story and she'd make the story up and we had three blind mice in my house and ended up becoming spies and went on secret missions and the story just evolved.

And then as the boys got bigger, they added to the story, but we did things differently, and I think, what? I fell into the trap of was, was trying to duplicate what mommy did and that doesn't work because they spot that they see it straight away and they're not comfortable with it. So it was either accept what you can't change and then just try and do the other stuff around it.

Yes, it puts more demand on mom for a period and just keep trying to introduce a completely different way and in short little windows and just try and see if it takes. Eventually it will, um, it did in my case, but then accepting the fact that. Some people are just better at certain parts of parenting, and it doesn't have to become a competition.

That's what we curate it sometimes. We don't have to feel rejected. Our children know what they need, and they know who they need it from, and sometimes we just have to listen to that a little bit. And I don't want to say that it means mom has to do all the night times and put them to bed because that is demanding, but for us, for a period of time, that might be what it takes.

And then just introduce a little bit of dad, or what we tried sometimes that worked as we did it together. You know, we did it together so that we could add, we almost became Punch and Judy, you know, so there was, there was bits that are actually, I quite liked it when dad did that, but it was nice to have mom in the same way when I used to try and set on my littler boys when they were much smaller is if I was doing skin to skin when they were small and like I said, all my boys were fed, they didn't settle for me in the same way.

I love skin to skin and I swear by it's my favorite thing to suggest, but I would take something that smelt like Sarah. And it would normally be a t shirt, and I'd put it over the shoulder that I would have my boys on. So they could smell me, they could feel me, but they could smell mum. So there was that reassurance of safety.

And sometimes when you do the double act, they get that. In the same sort of way they get a little bit of both parents, so it's not a complete change. But, yeah, my dad take on that is don't try and do it the same way. Because for me it didn't work, and for the dads I've worked with. It rarely works. It's, try and do it together, do it slowly, don't force it, don't put the pressure on it, and yeah, just introduce, try it for 15 minutes, and then they get mom, you know, we'll get the supervisor, but at least you've tried for that little bit of time, and then, 5 becomes 10 becomes 15 becomes 20 becomes 30 becomes sleep, you know, it's just that being patient, that, that would be my, my tips.

[00:47:16] Emma Pickett: Yeah, no, that's great. I love that answer. I think, I think the joint bedtime is something I often talk about. Um, and because if, if they're physically not used to dad being in that space, it's almost like, well, what the hell are you doing here? Hang on. That's this, you go now. There's quite often a ritual of right.

Bye bye, daddy. And now it's bedtime. So, so to say, actually daddy's going to hang out. Daddy's going to be part of the storytelling. Daddy's going to lie next to you as well. So change that up, bring daddy into that space, um, and, and again, literally have him telling the story too, or putting his hand in a particular position or being part of that story.

If the child sees the mum bringing dad into that space, that is going to mean that's acceptance all round. I think there are two separate concepts here. There's the idea of bedtime when mum is around and the child knows mum is around. And then there's the idea of bedtime when mum is out or working or not around.

So, so I have quite a lot of clients who, uh, work in the NHS, they do night shifts. Um, I've got a client who's a weather presenter who works in the evenings. Um, and daddy doing bedtimes and taking over bedtime can be quite scary. And I would say that that's actually easier for most people. When, when mum is not in the house.

And it's just dad, um, that goes often far better than people expect because little people know when breasts aren't available and mum isn't around. And also I think it's kind of empowers the dad a bit more because he knows there's not an option. Um, so he, he feels a little bit more strengthened by that.

Weirdly, he'd think the opposite would be true, but I don't think that is the case. And actually quite often it means he feels more empowered to do his own thing and do his separate thing. And absolutely what you said about not trying to pretend to be mum. You've got to do your own thing. I think we talked about, you know, singing Oasis last week.

You know, what you do is going to be your thing. Um, and I'm also quite a fan of what I call a non bedtime bedtime. Don't feel that bedtime has to be, we go here and then we do this and then we do that and we do this. If, if you need to hold your 18 month old on your shoulder and walk around the corridor and wait till they're asleep and then put them down.

The world is going to keep turning, you know, if you need to sit with them on the sofa with the lights low and, you know, read a book to them and wait till they fall asleep and carry them upstairs, everyone's going to be okay, you know, you do what you need to cope and then gradually over time, you are going to build up your strategies and your techniques and they will not be the same as your partners.

But they come from practice and when your partner's done, you know, a year's worth of bedtimes, that's hours and hours and hours of practice. You're not going to be an expert straight away. It is going to take time. And, and I thought, I think it's also super important to, to, if you feel that feeling of rejection, just pause for a moment and think, hang on, where is this coming from?

This is me. This is not my child. Um, little people don't have much in their life that they can control. And there's nothing more powerful than saying, daddy, I don't want you go away. You know, that is so empowering to a two year old to be able to do that. And that's not coming from a place of not loving you or not feeling connected to you.

That's just coming from a place of wanting to feel empowered and wanting to have agency. And, and sometimes the response to that is, Mate, I get it. I love mummy too. Yeah. But mummy's, mummy's in the bath and it's daddy's turn. And, and, you know, validating and hearing it. Um, and just really, really trying hard not to feel that feeling of rejection and understanding it's coming from a little person trying to feel a sense of control and agency.

Um, and when you do those joint bedtimes, sometimes mum has to mysteriously go and get herself a drink of water for five minutes and come back and then she has to go to the toilet and come back and then she has to make a phone call to granny and come back and just gradually extend the time away and, and it, it, it will get there, it will.

[00:50:58] Scott Mair: I think, amazing, honestly, gold, absolute gold to Emma. And I think the hard part sometimes, and we had this and there'll be people listening that'll be able to relate to this. If they get a little bit upset, and you've done the, mommy's just gonna go and get a drink, or mommy's just gonna go and do something, and you're at the bottom of the stairs or the bottom of the landing, and you can hear them getting a little bit upset, it's hard to know when do you stand and when do you come back.

So again, I'm not saying it's easy. None of what I've just said, I know how difficult it is, and I know when you're tired, and everyone's got this, everything's got to be by a routine. Again, personally, this is just what we did, and I, Believe it worked for my family. And if anybody asks me, I'm always trying to be honest.

Never really had set bedtimes for that particular reason, because every day is different. We don't go to bed at the same time every day. Um, and sometimes it's like we expect them to fall asleep, but they're maybe not ready or they could have other things going on in their mind in that day. And it's before you know it, you've sat, you've read 12 stories, it's been an hour and a half and they're still not asleep and you'll become a little bit frustrated.

And that voice comes across and that's the important part is that. Again, we go back to the pick your battles, but it's, you, you, you somewhat got to be led like I say this all the time and people look at me a bit funny, but we think that we're the teacher and they're the students. It's the other way around.

In my opinion, genuinely, we're learning from them. They're teaching us what we need. We've got to learn to listen sometimes. And I think that we get caught in the, yeah. Got to go to bed. It's this certain time and little Sally down the road goes to bed at seven o'clock every night we vote for us. It's no 10 past eight and they're not asleep.

What am I doing wrong? And that frustration builds. And then you read in the story and had a completely different voice. 

[00:52:42] Emma Pickett: Yeah. That frustration. We think we're good at hiding it, but little people, little people can micro expressions for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'd also say if bedtime is really hard and you're not being accepted at bedtime, do some mornings instead.

Spend some, so you need to have that one on one time with your child and to say, Mommy's sleeping and you and I mate, we're going to go downstairs, we're going to eat some toast, we're going to play with your cars and we'll see Mommy later. And I know you want Mommy, but she's sleeping. Come on, you and I.

And so just to have that practice of being with a child. Bit dysregulated, not in a great space and you practice regulating them without breastfeeding being an option. Um, sometimes, you know, a few weeks of being on morning duty can, can give you the confidence then to, to move to bedtimes and they'll be more accepting of you at that time as well.

[00:53:32] Scott Mair: That's really good. 

[00:53:33] Emma Pickett: We could do a whole hour on, on bedtimes, but it's good to touch on that a little bit. Um, Okay, this next question is from me. I'm going to cheekily insert a question from me. So, social media, massive advantages and disadvantages, I think we're all aware, particularly in the area of breastfeeding.

It's created this whole world of support. But I'm really mindful that that's not really a space where dads are easily welcomed. I mean, so a lot of the really great Facebook groups, for example, are very strict about not allowing dads to join, um, you know, because of dodgy internet people, you know, um. And I very rarely see a dad in the Instagram space around breastfeeding and infant feeding, again, probably because, you know, we've got a small group of people who have exploited it in the past, and that's meant that everyone's a little bit oversensitive, but it has meant that dads haven't been welcomed into that social media conversation necessarily around breastfeeding and infant feeding, and that is increasingly where young parents are finding their support and where they're connecting with other people.

Have I just not found those spaces? Do those spaces exist? Are there spaces where dads are talking about breastfeeding and new parenting on social media? What can we do to kind of change things? 

[00:54:42] Scott Mair: It's a brilliant question and it's one we need to address on a much larger scale because these conversations need to be had.

I've Always try to have these conversations as long as I've been working, and social media, you're right, there is a plus and there is a negative. The plus is we wouldn't have connected without it, and a lot of the work that I've done has came from the exposure of, of, of talking about it in those spaces.

But I'm also aware of the negative side of it, and I'm very, very vocal about the fact that I'm glad I was a first time parent without it. That's my own personal opinion, is I was quite impressionable, I was a bit of a people pleaser as a younger man, Um, and I think that being a young dad in particular, which me and Sarah were, 20 when we had our first is I would have found it very difficult feeling completely alienated from that conversation I was Professionally because I tried to engage with health visitors around around feeding how to be supportive and that support wasn't there if I then went to social media And felt the same.

I'm not sure I probably would have had the same relationship that I have with it. Um, so it is important that we address it. You're not just missing them. They're not there. There's times where I've seen posts that have gone out and there may be a dad who's a good advocate for it, that's tried to engage or commented.

And then the barrage. That comes his way makes it very difficult for anybody else to want to get drawn into that conversation. Um, because it does almost feel like you're not welcome in this space, but then you're criticized for not knowing enough about this space and it's kind of it both ways. So we've either got to shift professionally, where we have more of an engagement with the supportive parent in the conversation, what they can do, all the stuff that we've just discussed, it's easy to do.

Um, so when we do workshops with midwives through antenatal classes, Dad's come, the sort of questions we've had today, very similar questions. You can almost, if you're going to open it up to 10 question Q& A, I can almost guarantee five or six of the questions, they're going to be the same. Um, and when you create in those environments, you're having those conversations, it's important.

The workshops work quite well. In terms of spaces, anywhere where my organization, Fatherhood Solutions, is, is operating with local authorities. And creating pathways, we have specialist conversation support, where we do talk about this, and during the pregnancy we try and introduce it so they can be prepared for all the questions that you've just asked.

They come, they want that information, so this somewhat illusion that we have that men don't want to be in this conversation is not true. It's just not there and they can't find it. And they're finding it really difficult to know where to go. I agree that certain spaces, they shouldn't be in there, it should just be for When people that are breastfeeding to discuss breastfeeding, um, but there needs to be more places to get that information.

There needs to be, so if you've got a closed group, for example, you could do a one off webinar in that group. 

[00:57:43] Emma Pickett: Yes, absolutely. Good idea. 

[00:57:45] Scott Mair: Get that information more because we've seen success with that and we've got specialist WhatsApp groups in the areas where we work to discuss infant feeding in general.

And where dads can come because we've had this conversation on the first session. We're a little bit reluctant to be showing bottles or promoting formula, but doesn't mean people aren't doing it. So they need spaces to discuss it and make sure we, I mean, I get questions from dads about sterilizing bottles and how to clean the breast pumps.

Um, or if they have gone to formula, how long can you keep it? And I know that certain infant, infant teams will have these conversations, but we are a little bit unsure of what we discussed. So infant feeding in general, um, we have a group within come and get advice. And we have a specialist part of that where we'll discuss how to support breastfeeding and some of the challenges.

And one of the questions that you're going to ask before we finish comes up quite a lot. And so those spaces are important, um, to be able to offer that support. So we've tried to create them. Within my network as much as we can because it's important, but no, you're not missing them and they're not there and that is something that maybe needs to change.

But without a push from the experts as such, it's not going to be received. I think if there was a page that went on Instagram now where it was this sort of conversation, it might not be overly well received. So it would have to be supported by the right people, I think, um, to properly take off. 

[00:59:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah, no, we need to do better.

I think, I think there's, we sort of improved around kind of antenatal education and we know that dads need to be part of those conversations. And I see, I see more dads coming to support groups to be part of those early positioning attachment conversations. But from a perspective of someone that supports a lot of people who are breastfeeding beyond infancy, if you're a dad and you want to learn about toddler breastfeeding, there really is not an obvious place to go.

There really is not. And you know, you're not going to find those answers easily. There aren't going to be classes for you that, you know, that it's, so we need, as you say, we need to have the webinars and we need to have. the post of the month for dads to ask questions and, um, yeah, we need to, we need to be more careful about this because it's, you know, if you're a dad, you can't win if someone's saying, Oh my God, how dare you criticize me for breastfeeding my two year old?

Literally, where are they going to go? They don't know the names of the people to search on Instagram. They don't know that, you know, who's written the books. They don't, they just literally don't know where to go. So, you know, we have to have that information available. Um, I know you're saying earlier about, you know, do the research, but you just wouldn't know where to start to answer some of these questions.

So yeah, we need to do better. And I know some of the people that listen to this are in that professional space. We need to do better. It's not fair to expect dads to be there to support when they haven't got access to that basic information. Okay, let's talk about something that's sometimes difficult to talk about, but I used to teach sex education, so I have no shame, but we're not going to ask any private questions that will make Sarah or you feel uncomfortable.

Let's talk about sex and breastfeeding and sex and being new parents, because I think that's sometimes something that people feel really uncomfortable about and find it difficult to know how to talk about it. And I'm often getting questions from For mums or mums saying, you know, I'm worried about my lack of libido or I'm worried about how to have this conversation with my partner.

And even the flip side, I'm not worried about my lack of libido. I'd like to have sex again, but I don't want to leak. And I'm worried that my partner sees my breasts differently or my body differently. What sort of conversations are you having with, with dads? 

[01:01:10] Scott Mair: This comes up a lot. Like this, this is the question I was just alluding to before.

Whenever we have any antenatal or early postnatal workshops or conversations with Dad, this one comes up. The thing is, we talk about sex, um, and I'm quite comfortable with this. Don't, don't worry, I'm not gonna get embarrassed. Um, and I won't say anything that will get me in trouble either. But it is important.

It is important. And everybody's relationship is slightly different. To some people, that physical contact is more important than others. And it's, where do, where is your new normal? Where is that baseline? Until you've been through it, you don't know. Until you're in that situation, you don't know how things are going to change and how different you're going to feel.

But there is that shift, and from the male point of view, there is a change. Of course there's a change, and we get caught up in the, I want to have sex again, when do you think we can have sex again? And asking in the antenatal class, when can we have sex after the baby's born? It's more the intimacy than it is the actual sex.

And that is something that I've found with working with men that, I wouldn't say surprises me, but tends to surprise some professionals. Because they say, oh, dad's asking every class, when can we have sex again? He's looking for that physical contact, because that is our love language more often than not.

[01:02:23] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[01:02:23] Scott Mair: So it is, it's that cuddle, it's that contact. And, and what they feel more than not being able to have sex is, and this I, I know, because Sarah's heard me talk about this before, so there's nothing wrong with this. It's that, I'm touched out, leave me alone. You know, you stay on your side of the bed, our feet better not even touch during the night because I've, I've been poured out all day and I've had enough.

And, and that's okay, but again, it's that rejection. That it sometimes feels, particularly if that was where you were that couple, you were that contact, you were very touchy feely and cuddly. Um, it's the, the ruffle on the back of the neck, it's the lingering hand down the back. It's that just knowing they're there and you can feel them breathing against your back when you're asleep.

That's what's missing. And people think, oh, it's just, it's just sex. So there is things that you could do without being a sex expert. Um, that if you, if you need that contact. But again, it's the communication, it's having the conversation. Because what we don't talk about from mental health point of view, particularly birth trauma, and particularly dads that have got some sort of depression in this period or increasingly anxious, um, is that it's their libido.

And what happens is if we're not taught to have these conversations, when, when I work with, with midwives, I say we've got to get better. Same with health visitors. We've got to get better about talking about sex and sex life. And in most cases, not all, but in a very high amount of cases, sex is how you got here in the first place.

You know, so by proxy, we're talking about sex by talking about parenting and babies and it's, we've got to be a little bit more comfortable because it is important, but what happens, and I've spoken to moms about this and I've spoken to dads, is dad's witnessed that traumatic delivery, um, and it's not got anything to do with her and the change in her body, it's psychologically how that impacted on him and a few things happen.

One is if we don't have sex, that can't happen again. Okay. And the problems that he's dealing with, if he goes on antidepressants, for example, we know that can impact on things. If we can't communicate it, all she sees is my body's changed. It doesn't fancy me anymore. It doesn't find me attractive because they're not talking about it.

So that talking about sex and having that intimacy conversation. Professionals, if we can, or helping parents prepare to have these conversations a little bit more is so important. Otherwise, you're on completely different pages, and one seeing the other one is maybe the problem. Or, you've got the dad who says, he is, I want to have sex, I want to have sex, she's not ready, feels that pressure, feels uncomfortable, it creates a rift.

And it's just because we don't know how to have that conversation. And sometimes dad doesn't understand. What's actually happened, you know, the change in hormones, the psychological impact of giving birth and having a baby. We don't always, because no one explains it. Again, going back to the breastfeeding bit.

So he doesn't fully understand, but you've healed, it's been six months, you know, things have, you know, why, why still not, because he doesn't understand the connection or the impact, or because she's breastfeeding, it doesn't feel right, like you said about the leaking, you know, that, that conversation comes up quite a lot, they now see their breasts differently, dad sometimes sees the breasts differently, because he's gone from, like you said, sexualizing it, So no, it's not necessarily sexualized, but I still look at it and think they're very nice, you know, but I'm confused as to what are they now, I don't understand, or if I go near them, are they going to, are they going to splurt at me, that it does create, and you both got the same things, but we can't talk about it, so we have to get better, I think, as a society and as professionals, um, about maybe instigating those conversations or at least preempting having them in advance.

And trying to create that confidence, because it is important and there is lots of other things that you can do that are sexual, but it is that intimacy, it is that contact, but I always tell dads, it has to be, I'm ready. What we're trying to avoid is, okay, I think I'm ready. Or, I know that you can't always be sure, but it's, we don't want pressured into a decision that post baby that we're going to now have sex with our partner.

It needs to be that sort of more natural progression. Sometimes you've got to do other things before you actually have sex. You've got to build up to it. Maybe like you first met, is what I say in some workshops. You've got to build back up to it. And sort of reignite it because things are different and they have to be comfortable and confident in their own skin.

Um, and you've got to be confident in, in being in that situation. So there's, there's a lot of work to get done. It's not just like, right, it's been so many weeks, we're going to have sex now. Um, so when we do have these conversations with dads, it's always trying to push that communication angle. And again, being led.

You know, that this is a massive change that has happened in the physiological and psychological. And you've got to be patient and you can't put that pressure on. And yes, we have needs and urges as all the dads tell me. And they still fancy their partner. It's not as if that's changed. Um, and it's just what you're trying not to do is make them feel bad or feel guilty, um, for it not happening and being able to have that conversation.

Because then I think you'll get to. A more neutral, progressive destination, if, if it feels not pushed and not rushed. And again, going back to that, being heard and supported, but, you know, being aware that, you know, people have needs and people have urges and men sometimes do feel that rejection and then they feel jealousy and then they feel detached and it's, how do we talk about that?

How do we sort of find a ways around it? I know how difficult it is to have these conversations. I'm not saying it's easy in the height of the postnatal period. But it is important and it's just being aware that, not always, but a lot of the time, that conversation might get lost in, I want to have sex, when can we have sex again?

Is, I miss you. I miss you in that way and I want it back because things don't feel the same and we don't know how to say that and that's the bit that when I'm working with mums I'm trying to translate what he's saying into what he actually means and that's what a lot of it is. I just need that reassurance that we're still okay and I'm still yours.

Yeah, and we're still 

[01:08:20] Emma Pickett: connected and we're so, you know, that our relationship is at the core of this family and, and if sex has been the love language, which is for so many people, if that's not there, that feels scary. And I think as a, as a mum, it's really important to acknowledge that. Pressure for sex is not just pressure for sex.

It's also the desire to feel connected and important and valued, you know, and, and that concept of jealousy, you know, we haven't been talked about that very much, but we have to acknowledge that that's there. And when someone feels that, you know, that their partner is drifting away from them, that's super scary.

And sex feels like a way to reconnect. But if there's pressure around that, it gets super complicated. Um. I mean, that concept of being touched out, I think it's really hard for dads to understand what that is like, um, but actually you can help, you know, if you come home from work and, you know, during cluster feeding, you know, you pop baby in a sling while you're making dinner and cleaning up for dinner and your partner going to has a bath, you know, just, You can reduce that touched out feeling with very practical things.

Um, you know, I'm not saying put your child in a sling because you're hoping to have sex in an hour later, but if a cumulative effect of you just taking on that burden and holding your child a bit more and giving your partner a chance to switch off, it's, it's far more likely to mean that your partner will come to you and fill that space.

One, one practical thing I would say is that I think as a culture, we're quite used to going out for dinner and having a date being really important for a couple and the idea that you will have sex again if you have date nights and pressuring your partner to have a date night. I would really recommend not doing that and actually instead saying to your partner, you know, our baby's great at napping between midday and 2am, 2pm.

Why don't we get my mum round? She can be there in the middle of the day. Let's go for a walk. Let's have some lunch together. Um, and you know. You can have sex in the middle of the day if that's a better time of day, you know, if someone works from home and the kid's great at napping at 11am, that's the time when you snuggle in bed, that's the time when you have a bath together.

It doesn't have to be evenings, which when babies are more likely to be fussy, they're more likely to be cluster feeding, everyone's more likely to be tired, um, you know, mothers feel that pressure to have a date and then have sex after a date when they finally got back. Daytime sex, you know, be creative, think about things differently and, and mix up the schedule a little bit.

Um, and as you say, just, just the being together without the sex, I think is important. And actually one thing on the concept of breasts, I would just say, I once had this talk in Finland. Someone was saying, why are our breastfeeding rates so much better than some of these Nordic countries? And this, uh, Finnish bloke said, well, we're better at sharing breasts.

We're better at seeing a lactating breast as a breast that can also be sexual. We're not grossed out by that. For us, that's normal. And I think that there is something to that. I think we, you know, there's lots of the people I work with are tandem feeding and are breastfeeding older children. I promise you they've had sex again in most cases.

Don't be frightened of a lactating breast. It might be new, but that might be cool. That might be something you're into, you know, give it a chance. Um, no, I don't want to go too far into the kink, but I'm just saying that, you know, don't assume that a lactating breast is necessarily an unsexual breast because that's not the case.

[01:11:35] Scott Mair: Brilliant, brilliant point. And yeah, just finally on that, I think that the connection part is so important and That daytime thing, whether it's daytime sex, or whether it's a walk, or whether it's a nip to the cafe, if you've got that support. Um, if you do go down the, the date night thing, again, one of the things, do it in the house.

If you haven't got, we put so much pressure on, we've got to go out. And then, if the little one's not settled, or the babysitter lets you down, it puts so much pressure on. Um, so, that's one thing, and you could do that, you could have a daytime lunch. You know, you get something nice in, or if you're in a situation you can, you order in.

But we used to quite like, you know, you make it together. So you do a lot of the things that you have to do, and try and do it together, so you're just looking to reconnect. Because sometimes we think, we've had a baby, things are going to change, it's just going to poof. It's going to go back to the way it was, and sometimes it doesn't, you know, it takes that time.

So it is, like you said, it's the bath together, it's the And not even in an essential way, I say this all the time, have a shower together. Just so you've got That sort of time, put your Alexa on or whatever it is that you listen to or make dinner and sort of have the music on the background and just be together because that bit is so important.

I think we lose sight of that a little bit when we become parents is that identity of who we were that started this journey is incredibly important and it's just. Sometimes getting back to that first and to take that step back before you want to go forward and it's sometimes quite important, but everybody's different.

Everyone's individual. I think we, well, they were having sex after six weeks or I actually was in a seminar where they're on about how sometimes it happens. On the ward, in the hospital still. Yeah, I've 

[01:13:06] Emma Pickett: heard midwives tell me that, yeah. 

[01:13:07] Scott Mair: Um, you know, so everybody's different. And again, it's that pressure, it's that guilt, it's that everybody's situation is different and we all get caught up in what other people are doing.

It's natural. It's easy for me to say don't do it because we all do it to a degree. And it's just, you're taking it back, taking it slowly, and it's just about you two. And that's the one thing that is just you two still. And that's really important, and you do it at your own pace. But I'm really glad you brought it up, because it is a really important conversation.

It comes up quite a lot. We're very uncomfortable with it. We're a bit prudy, maybe. But it is really important, and it does impact on relationships massively. So it probably needs to be discussed a lot more than it is. 

[01:13:44] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think, you know, if you say something and you snap or if you say something in the moment of pressure, it's okay to apologize the next day or the next hour and say, I'm so sorry I did that.

I know that wasn't cool. I know that felt like pressure and I'm really sorry. Just admitting when you've made mistakes and just again, that's all just part of good communication. So much of this comes down to good communication. Thank you so much for your time today, Scott. Um, I realize there's so many other things we could talk about that I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop there because we, you need a life and a job and uh, maybe one day I'll, I'll get you to come back if there's any more questions that come up.

Um, I'm so grateful for all your time. Before we end, is there anything we haven't talked about that you really think we urgently should have talked about? 

[01:14:24] Scott Mair: No, no, I really, I think, I think we've covered everything in, in my mind, the things that I would like to have covered. Talked about. I think we have.

[01:14:32] Emma Pickett: Okay. And do you have any favorite resources or any links that you'd recommend that we can put in the show notes, particularly for dads around breastfeeding and feeding? 

[01:14:41] Scott Mair: See, I, you, you and you've mentioned Amy Brown. Um, Yeah, I think Amy Brown's, I think you're both fantastic, but I do same post dads that way.

The Breastfeed Network's good. Um, you know, I do tend dads to have a look and get research, but in terms of books, I have gave away quite a few of Amy's books, um, and just trying to get dads. But yeah, they're the three main ones. I do say social media, Google, have a look. Um, but anything that you find, I do say to look at the likes of yourself.

Um, or, or Amy Brown and just see if they agree with what's being said. Because then you can't really go wrong because sometimes you get misinformation. But yeah, it's them and the Breastfeed Network is pretty much where I sent that. 

[01:15:24] Emma Pickett: Yeah. No, thank you. I appreciate the mention. Yeah, I mean, there are some solid accounts out there.

Lucy Weber is another name I'd recommend her book on breastfeeding in the fourth trimester. Catherine Stagg is another name I'd recommend. There are, there are people out there and, and we're always happy to talk to dads and support dads. And when I have my weaning consultations, it's always great to have a dad there.

You know, it was always good to have, um, three people on the zoom call, but especially early breastfeeding support. I don't think dads always realize how important they are. They're not just the bloke carrying the car seat. They are so key to making breastfeeding work and, um, if you're listening to this and you're a dad who's listening to this, that says enough.

The fact you've even listened to this episode tells us that you're committed to, to make, wanting to make this work, which I know is incredibly valuable to your partner. So thank you for recognizing your importance. Thanks, Scott.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at emmapickettibclc and on Twitter at makesmilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.