Dads and breastfeeding with Scott Mair - Part 1

For this special Q&A session all about dads and partners, I’m delighted to be joined by Scott Mair. Scott is an ex-military dad of seven children, and one grandchild, who specialises in fathers’ mental health and inclusion. Who better to answer your questions about how dads can support breastfeeding, how non-feeding partners can form a bond with their babies, and how to overcome embarrassment about breastfeeding in public? This episode is part one and we continue talking next week with a focus on natural term breastfeeding.

Find out more from Scott on Instagram @‌fatherhood__solutions_

My latest book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett and I'm a Lactation Consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk.

I'm really happy to be joined today by Scott Mair, who is the Director of Fatherhood Solutions. Scott is a parent educator and mental health trainer who specializes in paternal mental health. Thank you, Scott. And as well as drawing on his professional expertise, he's also a parent of seven children over 19 years.

And try not to make my voice go up when I say that, but seven children, one grandchild. So he's living in the house with a baby right now. This is all very much his, his, his day to day life. We're going to be working together to answer questions about breastfeeding and infant feeding that have come in from dads or come in from mums via dads or we basically we're hoping very much today to talk about the dad experience with breastfeeding and infant feeding.

And thank you to all of you who've sent through questions in the last month. Um, really appreciate it. Thank you very much for joining me today, Scott. Really appreciate you coming today. 

[00:01:38] Scott Mair: No, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me. 

[00:01:40] Emma Pickett: So can I start, before we get stuck into the questions, can I start by asking you about your background and what led you to do this work?

[00:01:48] Scott Mair: Yeah. Um, so as you've already mentioned, spoiler, We have seven all boys, which I have to add. Um, so there's a lot of testosterone in my house. Um, my poor wife, Sarah is either moving fish and rods out the way or falling over footballs on a regular basis. It has been that experience. And I think when it comes to, to parenting in general.

I've got a real passion for what real antenatal education looks like. And it's preparing for the real life situations that we find ourselves in. And a lot of that are conversations we're going to have today when it's 2 o'clock in the morning. And you're tired and you're frustrated and you may be on different pages.

You're seeing things ever so slightly differently. And it's how can we help people have the information to support each other. And I've learnt that along the way. You know, I say this quite a lot in terms of parenting, Emma. My children taught me how to be a parent, and that's genuinely what I believe. And we sometimes think, and this is just my opinion, we sometimes think we're the teacher and they're the students, and I believe it's somewhat the other way around because I didn't know how to be a parent until I had them.

And they taught me a lot of the things that I now have the pleasure of being able to put into programs and share back. But the breastfeeding, Part of it really came from my eldest is 21 and my wife wasn't from a breastfeeding family Although she's Irish and she's from a big family. Her mum didn't breastfeed She wasn't around it a lot But it was what she wanted to do and that was very evident from the beginning and she was very very clear On, on the path that she wanted to go down in terms of feeding and we had that conversation, although Going back then I maybe put a little bit of the you can choose how you want to feed I think that was more my attitude 21 years ago.

Some people will say that's right. Some people would say that's wrong That's fine as we went through it I think I became more part of the conversation but she'd already made that decision the first time around and it was Speaking to health visitors and saying, okay, well, if I'm not part of the feeding process, how can I be, how can I be part of the breastfeeding journey?

And it was pretty much, you can't. And it was like, Oh, that's great. Thanks very much. You know, that's, that's helpful. So there really wasn't that conversation then of how I could support it better. And it was just things that we learn. And, you know, I created little manuals that have became sort of workshops and programs along the way of the things that I've learned that worked and some of the things that I've learned that didn't.

And. Through a lot of the peer support work and, and, and one to one stuff that I do with, with new dads particularly is we've been able to develop those programs to just offering that support. So it, it naturally happened and then we realized that it was something that started off just being, giving advice or, or working with my local maternity unit on how to get dads more involved in that parenting journey, particularly antenatally.

And it became Fatherhood Solutions and, and it became my full time job. Quite organically. 

[00:04:41] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, that's the best way organically coming from your personal experience and passions and realizing a problem and helping to fill that hole, which, which you're definitely definitely doing today. Before we start the actual questions, I'm going to cheat and ask one of my own questions.

Let's imagine. Okay. a hypothetical question that we're both going to answer together. So we're going to imagine there's a family based in the UK, there's a mum and a dad, they've both got the right support and the right environment to get their life as a new family off to a good start, and breastfeeding off to a good start.

What pieces do you think need to be put into place for that to happen? What is the sort of ideal scenario, do you think? 

[00:05:17] Scott Mair: Good question. Um, and one of the things I think we have to start with is that we use the language and we hear quite a lot, informed choice. I don't always feel that the full information is given to make that informed choice.

And that sometimes we do put a bit of our, our impartial bias on people to make decisions that we think are the best decisions for them. That's not just professionals. I'm trying to learn not to do that now as a grandparent. Um, and sort of take that step back a little bit. So I think that's a societal thing that we try and, well, this is what I did, so this is what you should do.

So in an ideal world, I don't think we would do that. I think we would say, these are the options that are available. These are all the wonderful support networks that we do sometimes have, but If it was a perfect world, we've got all the information. You pick the bits that work for you and your family, and you create your own blueprint.

You don't necessarily have to follow somebody else's. And it is advice. It is support. It's having people to talk to. It's preparing for the communication part of a relationship that we sometimes don't do. You know, to have these conversations. And it's not saying that one should be overpowering than the other one.

It's just that I think sometimes we don't prepare parents that there's going to be times where you might be on a different page. You might not agree with the strategy. You might not be happy in that situation. How do I get that point across without it becoming like it's an attack on the other person and it becomes a bit confrontational?

Just to be prepared, that's going to happen. Especially at two o'clock in the morning, like I mentioned, that maybe we shouldn't be doing this or, you know, you're tired, you're frustrated. Everything's kicking in that we're not preparing parents for. So, you know, that. It is challenging. It's wonderful, but it's hard.

So it's more honest, real life experience. These programs, the apps, the information is, it is fantastic. It is wonderful, but it's difficult. It's challenging. You're trying to learn these new skills. We tell people when they have a baby that you're going to meet this new person that you haven't met before and it's going to be wonderful.

It sometimes takes time, which again, we don't highlight enough. It's not always instant. But it's not just that one person. If you're having your first baby and it's one baby, so you're not having multiples, you're meeting three people, in my opinion, for the first time. Because you didn't know yourself as a parent, and you're trying to figure that out as you're going through.

And you didn't know your partner as a parent. And there is a change when they develop into those roles. So it's, you know, things are different and we hear quite a lot. It's not like it was before. It's not gonna be like it was before. It's never gonna be like it was before. This is different and different is hard because it's changed, but it's new and it's possibly better, but it is going to be that change.

And I think it's that change and the new reality that some people find difficult. So it would be better preparation, more honest, relatable information. Um, and just giving people the options to make their own choice. And yes, we are here to talk about, um, supporting during breastfeeding, but sometimes that isn't the option.

And it might be tried and it might not work out. So it's not that you've done anything wrong is the message I would like to get across. It's not the failure that we sometimes impart. It's that sometimes it's just going to go another way and it's having the confidence to make that choice and the support to know that it's the right one for you and that's the most important part.

[00:08:29] Emma Pickett: I love what you said about communication. I think that is so, so important when there's hormones flying around and everyone's tired and maybe we're recovering from a traumatic birth from both perspectives. It's really easy to blurt and say stuff necessarily without thinking about it fully and, and I talk to parents who 20 years later remember that blurt and the impact that had and you just, just to help parents have those honest communications in a loving, gentle, thoughtful way.

so much. It's not easy. I'm not saying it can be achieved easily, but that's the sort of dream. And I also love what you said earlier about how our babies teach us. And I think sometimes we have to acknowledge that antenatal education is only ever going to get so far. And even with feeding choices, you don't necessarily know.

How you're going to feel until there's a baby right there in front of you. So I think you have to sort of keep that flexibility. And if you know that you're somebody who loves to be in control and you're a planner and you want to get the apps and you want to write everything down to let go of that a little bit and to take a little step back and go, we're going to spend a couple of weeks here.

I'm not going to make loads of plans. We're just going to be together as a family. We're going to see how it works. I don't know if you can teach flexibility, but that would be the dream. And, and then if we're talking about that hypothetical world, and we'll talk about this a bit more in a minute, antenatal education I don't think has quite got how to get dads as part of the conversation.

I don't think we've achieved that. And I think too often I'm hearing stories of, of, even antenatal classes where dads are encouraged to leave the room. I mean that's still happening sometimes when we're talking about breastfeeding. And we just haven't really got how to help dads understand they're part of the process.

I mean that conversation you had 21 years ago when the health visitor said you're not part of the process. We're still sometimes hearing that today. Which is absolutely not true. And actually one of the first comments that we had was from a dad called Matt. And he said, um, what I think is good for new dads to know is that your support as a partner can really make a difference in your partner's experience and your child's, your partner knowing that you are in their corner, not just through words, but through action by learning about it.

The benefits, the struggles, the social impact of breastfeeding can go a long way. It's a great way to strengthen your bond with your partner and your child. Plus it's actually fascinating. And I actually love that comment. He wasn't actually asking a question. He just wanted to, to highlight that. And I, and I love that.

And I think that's, that's the nubbin of it really, isn't it? 

[00:10:56] Scott Mair: I'm still after 21 years and seven babies that were breastfed. Um, and my youngest, and again, it goes back to that point. My youngest was a neonatal baby. Yeah. And he was a little bit sort of delayed in some of the development. Um, but I mean, he was, he was free before he decided that he'd, he'd sort of weaned himself off being breastfed and it was watching, all of my boys were over two and it was baby led.

In terms of, I've had enough, no, I'll sort of go away. And we joke in my house that when they get to that stage, they come to the dark side. They come to daddy, then that's when daddy becomes fun. But what I love more than anything is that when my boys, maybe my older ones, um, they still levitate to mom when they don't feel very well.

Um, I think that's a natural thing, but what I've always witnessed, and I, I do, I love it, is they will sit and they will get as near to mummy's chest as they possibly can. Some people would be uncomfortable with that, and some people won't get it. For me, I find it incredible that they look for that comfort still, even at a slightly older age, and it'll just be the head on the chest, or sometimes it's the hand on the middle of the chest, because, again, you're the expert, but there was always that, when they were feeding on one side, they were sort of stroking the other side as they were doing it.

Um, they still tend to do that when they levitate towards mom and they adopt that same sort of position or my youngest who is five will still sort of lie across her sort of chest and her stomach in that same sort of way when he's not feeling very well. So yes, we know there's so many benefits and you're the expert that can explain a lot more than I can, but that connection is the one for me, which again, lots of the conversation today and going back to Matt's point, which is really nice is that we sometimes see that as a barrier.

Is there's a really big connection there, which means that I can't have that same connection. And I know some of these questions we'll be able to address some of those feelings that dads feel, but no, it is, it's just, it's absolutely marvelous. And to see, you know, when they're not well, and there was that extra demand, which is a bit of a demand on my wife and anybody that's breastfeeding.

I understand that, but it was, the body just knows what to do. And that sort of interaction and connection that, yeah, I am as much as when, when I work with families, I am trying to. Come across as pro choice, you know, it is what works for you. Of course it is. And I don't want anybody to feel bad if it doesn't work, but that can't mean that I can't celebrate how wonderful it is and try and promote that connection because I've, I've witnessed it for 21 years or, but you can be more involved than I know.

Some of these questions we're going to touch on that, that positive reinforcement is important, I believe. And it's not in an insulting condescending kind of way. And we can't possibly relate, um, but it's not always easy, and I think that's the bit that we don't promote either, um, is it is a little bit, especially getting started, um, and I've witnessed it again, obviously, with, with being a granddad recently, is it, it, it's not always easy, it's not sometimes as natural, um, as we sometimes, like, it's just gonna, gonna put a baby there, and it's gonna feed, and everything's gonna be great, so when it is a little bit challenging, or it becomes sore, um, My wife used to suffer with my status quite, quite badly, particularly first time around.

It's that, you know, how wonderful they are, how grateful you are for the fact that they're doing this, and the benefits, and it's just sometimes finding that balance between being supportive and maybe encouraging them to do something that they're no longer comfortable with, which I know will be something that we'll address later on.

But I think that support is really important. 

[00:14:17] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I love what he said about it's actually fascinating. I think if you want to nerd out, lactation, I mean, I've spent, you know, nearly 20 years doing this now. If you want to nerd out, lactation is such an interesting world and to read about the research and learn about the science and learn about, you know, the antibodies and the alpha lactalbumin killing cancer cells.

I mean, there's just. You know, you can seriously nerd out. Um, you know, I've obviously watched lots of couples over the years. I've been in rooms. I've been in at their home. They've come to see me. I've met them in groups. And I've met some magic dads who just absolutely sit at the front of my mind. Dads that remembered things that the mum had forgotten and said things like, Well, you know, remember last night when you did that?

That helped. And, you know, last week you were doing this and today you're doing that. You know, they were able to make connections that they're like the sort of the video camera operator who can say to the mom, well, when we did that yesterday, you know, your leg was a bit higher and the positioning was a bit different.

Let's try and change that. Um, they're also the second pair of ears when the mom is super tired, not able to absorb information. They just, they could partners and dads can make such an incredible difference. And I just think, and I hope there's nothing else people take away from today. It's, it's that the significance of that role and how important that role really is.

Um, You know, and it can't be underestimated. And we, you know, and we can see it in research. We know it makes an enormous difference. Um, and what you said about saying well done, I think sometimes people think, is that cheesy? Am I allowed to say that? But the mums who come to me and say, you know, it was my son's birthday today and we did the birthday cake and, And then my husband pulled me aside.

I'm going to cry now. Pathetic is that? My husband pulled me aside and gave me a little boob cake and said, you know, you've been doing this for a year and I want to say how grateful I am and what a difference it makes. And thank you so much for giving our child that start in life. And I'm, I'm not a crier, Scott.

I do not know why I'm crying. When mums tell me this, I know how much it means to them. And when, you know, people are at the end of a self weaning journey and that, you know, little. Three year old or whatever's not breastfeeding anymore and the mom's feeling a bit down and the dad says I just need you to know I Have seen what a difference that's made And I am so grateful and thank you for giving yourself in that and, you know, thank you for doing the nights and thank you for letting me sleep and, you know, you know, it's, I just know what, what you've given and how grateful I am.

And when partners and dads say that to their, to the moms, it, it hits so hard. It really, really helps. Um, so never stop the cheesy comments. No, no, 

[00:16:46] Scott Mair: I agree with that a hundred percent. I think it's, it's really important. Again, my take on this from, from having these conversations, um, but also from living it is that sometimes it, it, it might not be well received because it might appear cheesy, but it's going to be remembered in a few weeks time or a few months time when it is an eight time feed that's difficult or when they're maybe not feeling very well or they're going through that phase where it just feels like they're permanently attached and that might be a little bit more challenging and it's remembering that it is appreciated.

So it's, it, I don't think you can say it enough. I don't think you can sort of. Overly praised, um, but yeah, you don't want to come across condescending. Cheesy, we all like a bit of cheese. Nothing wrong with a bit of cheese. 

[00:17:30] Emma Pickett: I think you say, listen, I know this is cheesy, but I need to say. Address the cheese.

That's gotta help, yeah. Okay, so let's get stuck into some more of these questions. So, one question says here, What sort of information is helpful for dads to know about breastfeeding? Now that's obviously quite a big question and we could take 10 hours to answer that question, but I'd love to sort of throw some ideas out.

So I'm going to suggest that you say something, I say something, we kind of bounce ideas off each other. So if you're running an antenatal course on breastfeeding for dads, what information do you want to be given? To come across in that course, 

[00:18:04] Scott Mair: I think it's to understand the demand, um, would be one of the, I'll do my free top ones.

I normally do, um, the, the demand, which is a physical and emotional, um, how you can be part of that process. Um, and I know this one probably comes up quite a lot, but I had this sort of mantra of, I feed mom, mom feeds baby. So by proxy, I'm sort of part of that process. So it's making sure lots of drinks, nice, we call them bad goodies in my house.

So it's the occasional cake, a bit of chocolate, a boob cake's not a bad show. Um, but it's just those nice treats and making sure that there's things to eat and sometimes chopping up so you can do it one handed because trying to eat a meal sometimes is quite difficult when you've got a baby attached.

Um, or even trying to eat a sandwich sometimes is quite difficult. So it would be. You can be part of that process, um, offering the emotional support. And then the last one, maybe not necessarily in that order, but understanding that you said, not necessarily having to fully nerd out, but just understanding the process and the benefits to it, to both of them.

Um, and you're just having a little bit more of an understanding. So I think it's easier to give support when you know a little bit more about what you're trying to support. So that would be the ones that I normally highlight the most. 

[00:19:18] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what you mentioned the word demand in the context of sort of demand on mum's body, but we also in breastfeeding talk a lot about supply and demand.

And it's really important that people understand how milk production works and how in the first few weeks of breastfeeding. People are still forming breast tissue and forming prolactin receptors in one theory. And the more you breastfeed, the more you're setting your milk production up in the long term to be healthy, good milk production.

So that does mean a lot of frequent feeding at the beginning for good reason. You know, you're, you're paying the bank. So later on, you've got that milk production up and running. And we want dads to understand how milk is made and how milk production works. Um, and also I would just highlight that we want people to understand that it is not just milk, that there's, you know, we give birth to our babies early because they've got massive heads and we've got stupid pelvises because we stand up straight.

So as a species, human beings have to give birth to their babies when they're quite premature. And that means that those babies have got a lot of brain development to do in the first year of life. And when they're breastfeeding. There's a big psychological, neurological, emotional thing happening. And it's not just a way to give milk.

There is relationship building stuff going on as well. You know, we're delivering hormones that, that help babies feel content and trusting. We're delivering hormones that affect sleep and, and, you know, digestion and millions of other processes, but breastfeeding is meant to be for comfort. And we lost sight of that a little bit in the 20th century, and that means that some of the older relatives in our families may not feel comfortable with that concept, but we need dads of the 21st century to know that breastfeeding is meant to be for comfort, and it also may be quite frequent, and that's okay.

It's meant to help people go to sleep, and that's okay. Um, so understanding a little bit about, you know, the macro benefits of breastfeeding, it's not just about nutrition, it's not just about immunological It's about that connection and, and building those relationships. And the other thing I would say for dads is that, just be a wee bit careful about that little devil on your shoulder that tells you to time breastfeeds.

That tells you to time the length between feeds, and tells you to time the length of a feed. And I think sometimes when dads can't literally get in there and breastfeed, they think, OK, I'm going to help by recording feeds. I'm going to write down the start time, I'm going to write down the end time. We're going to talk about, you know, that was only two hours or that was an hour and a half.

And I think that can be a bit dangerous. And I wrote an article that you can find on the UNICEF baby friendly website about what I call the obsession of infant feeding intervals and what can go wrong if we go down that road. And I'm thinking of one family in particular that I met several years ago where the mum was really struggling with latching and the dad's job was the app.

And he pressed the start button on the app to start the beginning of the feed being recorded and then the baby bobbed off again. So he pressed stop, the baby went back on, he pressed start, the baby bobbed off, he pressed stop and he wasn't looking at the mum. He wasn't looking at how she was feeling. He wasn't able to kind of support her because his job was the app in his mind and his job was measuring the minutes.

And I just think we just need to be a wee bit careful we don't get sucked into that because it's very easy to think that that's important. Um, and actually it can lead you down a slightly dangerous road of missing the point of what breastfeeding is about. So, um, just be careful about the urge to measure and count and, and just let the hippie stuff happen.

You know, it's about connection. It's about feelings. It's, it's not necessarily going to be measurable. Um, but also learn how milk supply works and learn how milk production works. I mean, it's great if you can understand things like what's a block duct, you know, what's mastitis, what's tongue tie. Where are the local breastfeeding support groups?

What's the difference between a lactation consultant and a peer supporter? If I really have a serious problem here, which helpline am I going to ring? You know, dads are brilliant at being the gatekeeper of all that kind of information. Um, and it's often the dads who are calling to find this extra support.

Um, So that's, that's the kind of information I would love dads to have. 

[00:23:18] Scott Mair: Just, I don't know, I think that's a brilliant point, because I think that we are quite practically minded, we're quite logical sometimes, um, particularly as the male parent. And you can see how that could happen when you become that human app.

Um, and yeah, I'm really glad you cleared that up because I could see how that can happen. The one thing that I do try and promote, and again, it was just learning these things, was what you can, just constantly monitoring which breasts they fed off last. Because you sometimes get to the middle of a night and Sarah would say, I can't remember what side I fed on last.

So it might not be the monitoring the time or how many feeds, but it was, yeah, well, sometimes you're going to forget, you know, so that, that was the sort of the journal or the diary or the thing that I put on the phone is it might be the time, but like I said, I tried not to get too fixated on that, but I can see how it happens.

And I'm glad you did clear that up. But the side, I always found that quite helpful. He fell on the left last time. Um, so that 

[00:24:14] Emma Pickett: shows that you were watching and that shows that you were part of, you know, you paid attention and that message to her is not just Scott knows it's to the left, but Scott noticed and paid attention and that, that feels significant as well.

Um, yeah, I like the hair tie on the wrist, just swapping bracelets, which is the next side. Okay, so next question is a biggie. Um, brace yourself. How can dads bond with their baby if they don't feed them? 

[00:24:41] Scott Mair: Yeah, see this one does come up a lot and I enjoy this one because bonding attachment is probably one of the bits I enjoy the most.

Um, it is having this conversation with dads when we do at any stage, we're particularly early on having these conversations to how you can do it. We talk quite a lot about certain things when it comes to bonding attachment and we don't always bring dads into the conversation as you pointed out, quite rightly so.

Skin to skin is my golden tip, always has been. Um, I swear by it. With my eldest, I didn't really do skin to skin as much like 21 years ago, but it was mainly Sarah was saying. Maybe you should sort of try and have that cuddle. And I says, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then my second son, I did it a little bit more, um, and sort of felt it.

And the only way that I've been ever able to describe this to dads is I didn't fully understand the benefit of skin to skin until I felt it. Um, and then it changed everything. And it's sort of been the one thing that I constantly promote, but it's, it sounds silly, but it's doing it properly. I think sometimes what we do is we encourage it from the beginning.

Um, with. With mom in my experience, and the work that we do, but with Sarah it was always encouraged. I don't think a professional ever really brought me into that conversation, I've got to be honest. And that's not a criticism, it's just an observation. That's what happened. It was more Sarah that would say, sort of, try it.

Particularly after she had that golden hour in the hospital. And she had that first, sort of, little bit of time. From, sort of, baby three onwards, I would, sort of, then get my shirt off and I'd have skin to skin immediately in the hospital. But it was knowing what you're looking for because what we tend to see sometimes from dads is they'll put the baby on their chest, they'll hold them, they don't really know what they're looking to feel, they don't really know the benefits of skin to skin, and it'll just be, okay, it was maybe nice, but I don't really know what happened.

Or nobody's really explained it. They're looking for that shift in weight. So when you've got a baby on your chest and you all know this and people listening that have got children will know what I mean by this, but it's the, there's a difference between a baby that is asleep and a baby that is asleep.

And it's that sort of shift in weight where they sink into you. where you can sort of start to feel and exchange that oxytocin, that nice, warm, fuzzy feeling, having that cuddle. And for babies that are being breastfed, what I would do is I would take my boy and I would do the winding. People say it's not a talent, then you get a baby that's got a bit of wind and you realize it's quite important to be able to get it off.

So that became the dad job, is I would take them, if they were fed skin to skin, and then I would take them for skin to skin, do the winding, get the wind off, have that cuddle. And they would get to sleep on me. But it's some of the basic things like people won't see this, but I've got a bit of a beard.

I've got to keep it at a certain length or Sarah tells me off. Right. But so you've either got to have a substantial beard or be clean shaven. So if you're holding baby on your chest and you've got stubble and baby's moving his head, it's going to irritate baby. And the same of the chest. You've either got to be David Hasselhoff for those that know who he is.

Um, or you've got to wax it or keep it really short. Cause it's the same thing. Very sensitive baby skin on that stubbly chest and stubbly head. So all that's going to happen is baby's going to be upset. They're going to cry, probably going to go back to mom or be put back down. And it's our skin to skin didn't work, but we didn't take the time to encourage it properly and make sure they're getting that contact and not having too long so that baby overheats on dad.

So skin to skin, um, It's definitely my number one tip without a shadow of a doubt and you can be part of that process, you know, if mom's having a feed and then you can sort of lie down together, you know, you can have that contact as long as you're accepting the fact that sometimes you might get look, I'm touched out, leave me alone, which is going to be a conversation we get to later.

It's knowing where those boundaries are, but having that contact, being part of the process, having that cuddle, watching baby feed, like you said, studying it, but it's fascinating to watch it truly is. And that using that word again. So being involved in that process, having that contact, having cuddles as much as you can, what you're comfortable with.

But watching them, studying what their patterns are, the difference between when they're fully asleep or when they could maybe be stirred, what sort of things stir them, studying the facial expressions, getting to understand what the cries mean, because it, one thing we hear is, Oh, well, like I used to say, boob fixes most things in my house.

You know, when they were upset, they're just, you can almost give it to mom and she'll fix it. But that's a demand that we sometimes don't want to put on. So it, but it might be, okay, let's go through the list of what everything else might be wise, baby crying. Well, that sounds like a wet cry, but if you've listened to the crying, you've watched them enough, then you can start to understand and you'll develop that relationship with them.

So you can start to cater to some of the other needs, but even if it is that they need a milk, the fact that you could say, Oh, I think they're hungry. I've tried everything else. Do you want to try a feed rather than just hear mom? Baby's crying. It must be hungry So you're starting to one take some of the pressure and ensure that you're becoming a team Which will help you feel more confident and have help them feel more confident in you But you're starting to understand, um, the needs of a child.

So as much contact, handle them as much as you possibly can. Um, I did my, um, training, um, in the summer to do baby massage. So I run baby massage sessions for dads. So specifically just me as a dad and dads in the room. Um, and the main point of it, massage is fantastic. But, um, It was for confidence. It was just to be more confident handling baby and holding baby and catering to the needs and not that all baby's crying.

I better sort of give back to mom. So the more that you can respond to them, the more you feel confident as a parent, the more that relationship will grow. So it is doing the things that help like the skin to skin, which is lovely. Having a baby fall asleep on you is an absolute joy. Been able to sort of sit and smell their head and all that wonderful stuff.

But. As your confidence grows, you allow yourself to bond a little bit more because you become confident. So it's, it's hands on, um, improving that confidence. Whatever time you've got, you come home from work, you might have five, 10 minutes, five, 10 minutes of completely focused time. It's quite a lot of time really to be able to start to understand them.

So it's, yeah, study them as much as you can, um, be open to the fact that you might make mistakes. And you may not be very good at everything, but you'll find that thing that you are, and it may be winding, it may, whatever it is, and you just do that, just do that one thing as your confidence grows and you develop that relationship.

So it's, yeah, trying to be as hands on, um, and accept the fact that you won't be perfect at all of it, is how I think we increase that bond. 

[00:30:57] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I love that answer. And, and I would just say on behalf of mums, sometimes we need to accept that dads won't be perfect. And we need to keep our mouths shut. And I think sometimes when someone's sleep deprived, and they're in the early days of motherhood, it's so tempting to go, Oh, no, no, don't do it like that.

And we've got to make sure we understand that dads have have to practice, they don't necessarily get the hours that we do, you know, that whole thing about how it takes 10, 000 hours to be an expert violinist. You know, if dads are chucked back to work at two weeks, three weeks, you know, they're not going to get those hours in the first six months that necessarily the primary caregiver does.

So we need to make sure that when dads have the opportunity, they, it can be really valued and really they can be given the time. It takes time. You said before about how we don't automatically, you know, necessarily feel connected to our babies. And a dad that doesn't feel bonded to their baby in the first two weeks is an absolutely normal, ordinary dad.

I mean, there's nothing unusual about that. And if you, and if you look at your wife and think, gosh, she really is getting something out of this. She's really connected to this baby in a way that I'm not. Is there something wrong with me? The answer to that is, no, there is not. You know, that's totally normal and it just takes time and skin to skin holding and I would just add in there baby wearing using a sling Oh, yes.

Oh, yeah seems a bit naff for some people but gosh, no go for it There are some brilliant slings out there that are made for dad's bodies And actually if you can hold baby in a sling, you know when you get home from work I'm sure your wife partner is really happy to hand baby over for a little bit before the cluster feeding starts.

Pop them the sling while you're making dinner. It makes, you know, makes life a lot easier. Did you use slings with some of yours? 

[00:32:34] Scott Mair: Yeah, I'm so glad you brought that up because I would have been in trouble if we didn't cover it. Um. Yeah, I wore slings with, we had the actual fancy looking, which I don't want to use the name of the brands.

One of the main ones, we had them ones. And then Sarah became more of the shawl slings, um, which I liked both, but I did quite like the sort of wraparound type one. Um, but I always had to get Sarah to help me put it on. I did struggle with that a little bit, but the, the reason why I'm glad we brought that up.

My, my son does it with my granddaughter. Um, but we've got, Videos and photos of all of my younger boys wearing my granddaughter. Um, so it's, we did a little sort of video about this. Um, that this stuff can be taught. It can be taught at a very young age. We are, we do have that nurturing ability. As males, we just sometimes don't tap into it.

But no, baby wearing. And yeah, I wear my granddaughter quite a lot, even if we go out on walks and stuff. So no, I'm really glad you brought that up. Um, cause one of the sessions that we do is bringing the sling library in, um, with new dads to sort of try and promote it. Cause quite often we hear I'd love to do it.

I just don't know how to. Put it on properly or I don't feel fully confident or if I put it on, I'm still holding underneath. I don't feel confident enough to let go and have my hands free. So it's, it's not defying the point, but it's quite nice that have baby on you make sure they're nice and safe and comfortable and then sort of carry on with what you're doing.

I've seen dads that have sat on zoom meetings with that have got baby on a sling and they're just sort of sat there chatting away. So no, I'm really glad you brought that up because that is a really good tool. And every time I see a dad wearing this thing, I'd sort of get that little. Fuzzy feeling inside.

Um, so it is nice. But the first time I did it was with my eldest and I was ex I'm ex army. So the first time I did it was in a military camp and we have test scores with most of the camps and I'm walking around test scores and I've got my son, but I'm in military uniform and you know, there was that sort of occasional look.

It is this sort of guy I think he is. And I think that bit we're starting to move on a little bit from, I think it's become, we're much more comfortable. Um, but I do often say that with having seven boys, if, if, if Sarah took all of my boys on holiday to Australia on her own, nub did bat an eyelid. You know, if, if I take three of my boys to the park, I'm sort of father of the year.

So, so, so there is still, there's a difference. Um, but I think we have become a little bit more comfortable in, in seeing dads carrying their baby. But, um. Piers Morgan, a few years ago, made a comment. Oh, I 

[00:35:04] Emma Pickett: saw that. The Blooming Daniel Craig one. Yeah, 

[00:35:06] Scott Mair: and that did a lot of damage. What a 

[00:35:07] Emma Pickett: tosser. What a tosser.

It did a lot of damage. No. Yeah. 

[00:35:11] Scott Mair: Don't be sorry. You talk 

[00:35:12] Emma Pickett: about, talk about being less of a man or something, when the absolute opposite is the case. Yeah. Yeah. And if you know, if you know Piers Morgan, you know that, yeah, he was obviously saying that to get the hits and get the attention. 

[00:35:24] Scott Mair: But it did damage to, particularly some of the younger, more impressionable.

I'm not saying that only young parents are impressionable. Um, there was a little bit of. It did, it changed, it changed the narrative and then there was a couple of, um, professional football players that were doing skin to skin and there was pictures and then you sort of read the comments um, and lots of people that weren't very nice in the comment section.

So going back to the two main things that we know help with bonding, we've got people out there sort of criticizing it and I think it's sometimes quite difficult to not be influenced, um, that's why I'm really glad my first two children Possibly even three children went before social media. So I was never really exposed to that constant, um, images that you see what's right and what's wrong.

[00:36:08] Emma Pickett: Yeah, we'll talk about social media in a minute. Positives and negatives there.

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Okay. So I love this next question. We're still in the early days, but I want to help my partner to get as much sleep as possible, but she's reluctant for me to give a bottle. How do we get the balance right in protecting the breastfeeding, but also giving her a rest? Can I go first? I was just going to ask you that.

So I was going to say, so obviously the step one is why is she reluctant to give a bottle? And it's not about convincing her out of that. It's about trying to understand where that's coming from. Okay. You know, what's been her breastfeeding history, you know, where the bottles in the early days and she's worked really hard to get back to exclusive breastfeeding.

We've got to understand where she's coming from to be able to have this conversation. And obviously this dad's motivations are in absolutely the right place. I mean, you can tell he's wanting to, to maximize sleep and he's, you know, really worried that his partner's not getting enough sleep. We do have a lovely bit of research that actually shows that exclusively breastfeeding mums get better quality sleep overnight than mums that partially feed.

So we do need to bear that in mind. But I would also say as a lactation consultant, you know, we don't have a lot of evidence that bottles are going to make a massive difference to breastfeeding success. Most people in the UK will give some bottles alongside breastfeeding. And, you know, if it's exclusively breastfeeding.

We really don't have evidence that's going to cause any issues at all and make any necessary long term impacts. I think there are some myths around, you know, nipple confusion or flow confusion. But to be honest, once you've cracked the breastfeeding latching in the early days and breastfeeding is comfortable, adding in the odd bottle is really unlikely to make an issue around the feeding, but it might sometimes impact on milk supply.

So if, for example, a mum is going six hours or eight hours and you're saying to your partner, come on, I want you to have a whole night's sleep, You know, let me give the bottle the whole night, that isn't super sensible, that is possibly going to increase risk of mastitis and blocked ducts and could impact on milk supply negatively that could have an impact of several days or even in the longer term.

So if your partner is reluctant because she's worried about milk production, that may be coming from a sensible place. So it may be the answer is for her to miss one breastfeed. and then come back to breastfeeding afterwards. So quite a common pattern is a mum who's really exhausted, struggling after a difficult birth, really trying to maximize sleep.

You know, she might do all the cluster feeding in the evening and we, you know, we could do another hour talking about cluster feeding. Then she might go to bed at nine. Dad might be on duty from, let's say, nine to midnight. He might have one bottle of milk and he might potentially bottle feed at that point.

And then mum's back breastfeeding again after midnight. That's quite a common pattern. Some families will do a version of that. So dad's on duty, not necessarily with the bottle. And the agreement is that if baby wakes up, I'll try all my techniques. If they're still not settling, I'll bring them to you for a feed and I'll take them away again straight away.

And you will be, you will not have the con, you know, that, that the film Crimson Tide, when you're in charge of the submarine, you've got the con. If you've got the con, you know, you mentally, you can't relax. You can't switch off. Um, you know, if even if the mom knows you are going to bring baby to me, if baby needs to feed, but I don't have to keep an ear out.

I don't have to stay in that lighter phase of sleep. I can relax knowing you've got the con that can make quite a difference. So it's possible to do that support and maximize sleep without giving the bottle. But it is also possible to give a bottle occasionally with breastfeeding without there being any negative impacts as long as we're only missing maybe one feed in the early weeks.

Is that, is that a comfortable answer for you, Scott? How would that feel? 

[00:40:36] Scott Mair: That is perfect. The only thing I would ask, and it comes up quite a lot because you hear bits of information, is what's, like, where's your stance on dream feeding? 

[00:40:46] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So dream feeding, for anyone who doesn't know, is the idea that, you know, when an adult's going to bed, why not squeeze a bit more milk into the baby just before they're going to bed?

So let's imagine the baby's gone down at seven, you're going to go to bed at ten. Baby might wake up again at 11 or 12. To be honest, it makes logical sense for me to squeeze as much milk into baby as you can when you're awake and alert. So if you're going to go to bed at, you know, 10 and baby's going to wake up an hour later, that's obviously a bit of a pain.

So why not try and get a bit more milk into baby? So no, I think dream feeding can absolutely work. But you can, you can dream free to breastfeed, um, that is an option too, um, doesn't have to necessarily be a bottle, um, and yeah, I think to be honest when it comes to breastfeeding there are very few hard and fast rules and anybody that tells you that this thing is bad and this thing isn't allowed, we just need to check where that evidence is coming from because quite often, you know, families will make systems that work for them.

But I guess the, the key part of that question is she's reluctant. So we need to understand that it's not your job to say, well, look, here's an article about how it doesn't matter. And this lactation consultant on this podcast said, it's okay to give a bottle. Um, that, you know, it's done. My voice is not the one that matters.

The voice that matters is, is your partner. So, so where are they coming from on that? And where's that reluctance coming from? 

[00:42:05] Scott Mair: Brilliant answer. And yeah, I think it's the communication part we touched on again, it's having, uh, I think we're very quick to look at the, the what. And I think it's maybe getting a bit more uncomfortable with the whys.

Um, and sort of having these conversations. So yeah, I've got nothing to add. If I had to, I think the one thing I would add is that maybe doing a little bit more before you get to bedtime so that there's the option of An earlier night and taken off some of the other response and anything else that would be taking that time that isn't feeding, but you've already mentioned that with the taking everything else away, which is my top tip in that situation would be you do everything else.

Um, and then it is literally just not just the feeding part. I don't mean it in that way, but it means that everything else is sort of taken care of, which you saw perfectly explained. So yeah, that would have been all I would have added, but yeah, thank you very much. That was a really good Don't know why I'm saying thank you, it's your podcast.

[00:42:59] Emma Pickett: No, hey, no, I like, no, I like it, I like that. Um, okay, next question. Do you have any, and we've sort of touched on this, but I think it's important to kind of reaffirm, reaffirm it again. Do you have any tips for building up a new dad's confidence in caring for baby when the solution to every problem seems to be breastfeeding?

Every time I left the baby with my partner, he'd call me back in two minutes because the baby got upset, looked sleepy, or dad thought he was signaling hunger or that he was looking for me. It took the baby starting solids for my partner to gain confidence and spending time alone with him. 

[00:43:31] Scott Mair: Again, if it's any comfort, It's quite common, um, the introducing the solids and the weaning stage is where we start to feel a little bit more comfortable.

Um, I joked at the beginning about the dark side. You know, when dads came, when babies came to me a little bit more, um, it was a confidence thing with me. They're a little bit bigger, a little bit more robust. They can start to communicate, which we sometimes find easier. We also know, um, that I do a lot of work with neurodiverse parents.

Um, and sometimes understanding the cues that we mentioned is a little bit more challenging. So it's as they become a little bit older, we're more comfortable because they can communicate, they can show in different ways what it is that they're looking for. And sometimes that's why they're more invested at that stage, is they can understand the communication of the child a little bit more.

In general, it is the stuff that we touched on it. It's trying to improve that confidence. It's just studying them. It's understanding them. And sometimes it seems, not necessarily pointless, but when dads are talking to me, just watch them sleep. Just watch them sleep and see what it is that they're doing.

Try and understand. Like I said, you'll listen. There is a difference in those cries. And I think it's just, it takes time. But the one number one tip I do in there is to just find that one thing. That one thing that he is quite confident with. Because what We've also got to remember sometimes is what got us to this stage.

That why that we just mentioned is I see all the time. Dad holds baby in the hospital and the in laws can be a bit of a problem here sometimes, but so can the parents. So it's not sort of, um, one sided, but it's the, uh, you're taking too long with getting baby ready. Not let me do that. And sometimes even professionals will do that in the hospital.

Um, or you're doing that wrong. Let me do it or let mom do it because you know, she might do it quicker. And you're sort of pushing them out from the very beginning. And then it's, oh, you're not maybe holding baby correctly. You're not supporting the neck a little bit more, you know, give baby back to mom.

And, and so rather than showing them an alternative way or on the job learning, we're sort of removing it, which sort of diminishes any confidence that's already there, um, by the way in which we interact with them. So it's trying to promote that as much as you can. And yes, it's a bit like the feeding.

It's the well done. You know, I know people say, Oh, it's difficult to do that when you're recovering and you've got a baby. I get that. And if there's family around you, it's just trying to positively reinforce where that confidence is lacking. But it's finding the things that they do do, they are quite comfortable with.

Um, and then as they sort of master that one particular part. The confidence will naturally grow and the time that they are being left is, we just do it in short periods. So it might be that you just go for a shower and then he's got to sort of figure it out and then you just sort of extend it ever so slightly.

That would be my tip. 

[00:46:14] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, the thing about going for a shower is a good one. You're on duty for 20 minutes. A breastfed baby is not going to starve to death in 20 minutes. And actually, I would add, don't be frightened of your baby being upset. That's a good point. You know, I'm holding my baby for two minutes and the baby's crying.

I'm, I'm, I know breastfeeding is going to shut this up, so I'll hand it over. Sometimes babies will cry and we're going to learn more about them if we hold them and we work, we experiment and we try the rocking and we try the singing and, you know, sing your favorite diet straight song or whatever it's going to be.

You're going to make a connection with that baby through practice. And there is nothing more magic than a dad who's worked out the special trick that settles the baby after a feed. Um, and you'll only get there by practicing. And that will mean some time with your baby crying in your arms. And to know that that's natural and that's okay and your baby's not coming to harm is, I think, really important.

And that's also, from the mum's point of view, understanding the baby will not come to harm if they are crying in your partner's arms. You've got to let your partner practice different techniques and strategies. 

[00:47:23] Scott Mair: What a brilliant tip. And, and it is that, that rocking, I'm visualizing that as you're saying it.

Um, because it, I sometimes stand in the living room or I'll be given a training session. I'll be at the front of the, and and I'll be doing the PowerPoint and I'm sort of still rocking from side to side because I've had my granddaughter the night before. And you just sort of become comfortable in that rock.

But yeah, it, it does take time. And the music, um, I'm really glad you said that, that that's a lot of the work that we do is we create. But what I've found, and we actually did a piece on this where we spoke to dads about the songs that they sing to their children, 95 percent of those dads did not sing nursery rhymes.

And I think sometimes we push the, and it's like, well, I don't, I won't sing them because I don't know the nursery rhymes, but like you said, they know Dire Straits or Oasis or Pink Floyd or Westlake. And 

[00:48:10] Emma Pickett: that's the song that they're going to be able to co regulate their child with. So co regulation is our emotional stability rubbing off on a little person.

And if we are singing a song that we like and we love and our voice is confident, that's going to rub off on that little person. If we're trying to sing, you know, wheels on the bus and we don't know the words, we're not going to be having that emotional stability. So absolutely the dad songs are super important.

[00:48:34] Scott Mair: And I don't claim, please, anybody listening to this and to you as well, I don't claim to be father of the year or grandfather of the year, nowhere near it, not husband of the year either, but this does work. And I genuinely believe that it's particularly the music. My hosts are all big fans of country music.

Um, and there's a country singer called Luke Combs. And he's got a song called Hurricane. Um, and that became the song that I just naturally sang. Um, I don't, I'm not going to burst into song, Emma, don't worry. Oh, 

[00:49:03] Emma Pickett: I don't know how rights work. Would we have to pay music rights? I don't know. 

[00:49:06] Scott Mair: So, so this is the song I sing and she's now seven and a half months old.

And her dad was cooking dinner, um, for her mom in the kitchen yesterday. And then he had the Alexa on and that song, that particular song, hurricane came on the playlist and I've got my granddaughter sat next to me. And as the songs came on, she's turned and she's looked at me. So she's already connecting.

The power of that song, um, and I just sort of sat there, I had this big sort of smile on my face and I called my wife and I said, look, she just sat staring at me. I think she was waiting. And then I started singing it and I got that sort of smile. Um, she's not smiling at the singing. Don't worry about that.

But she's, so it does, you know, the power of music is so incredible. And if it is nursery rhymes, that's fine, but it's just being comfortable with the soothing and the singing and the communicating. And if you're not comfortable with that, just talking to them. 

[00:49:53] Emma Pickett: Talking. I heard a thing the other day, did you see this online?

Some dad who was an atomic scientist puts their child to bed by telling them about atoms. Oh, that's amazing. I didn't see that. And I think the kid said, tell us about atoms, daddy. So that's just his routine. You know, it doesn't have to be some magic imaginative story. Some dads are like, I don't know how to tell a story.

I haven't done that for, for donkey's years. But you know, you don't have to be the person that tells a story that just talk about your life, talk about your day, talk about you. 

[00:50:19] Scott Mair: Right. Right. Right. Right. The last thing I would add on that in the confidence bit is if someone's got the opportunity, these conversations mean that they're already in it.

Um, so it might be for next time, or it might be for anybody else that's listening. Starting that early while they're still in the womb, um, is one of the things I always try and promote anti native. So it is talking to them, but it's using the language and the tones that you use every day. So nursery rhymes are great.

We know the benefits of rhyme in terms of development of language, but read your emails. If you're watching Netflix, read this hypnosis. And just get used to talking to baby, getting, trying to develop that understanding of that voice, which there is limited research that they can create that connection.

Um, but it's for you, it's for you to interact and to talk to, and just to get, if you can talk to your partners, I called it a bump, whatever you call it, um, then you can develop a confidence to talk to a baby. So it's just learning as you're going along, and then the interaction, they're going to kick, sometimes they're going to kick if you're rubbing some oil.

If your partner is comfortable with that, my wife used to like it, especially sometimes on the hips towards the end of the pregnancy when she was a bit sore. Um, so just sort of give the stomach a little bit of a massage, but as you're interacting, they're going to kick and you can take that however you want.

They could just be kicking anyway. It doesn't matter if you're there or you can start to see that as the interaction and it just, it creates that bond. It creates that connection. Um, so you don't have to wait. So I want to start same as reading. If you want to get reading now, just get used to sort of reading those, whatever the stories are or having these conversations.

It's just the talking and communicating so that you can soothe them and be more confident. Like you said, you can try everything else before you say, right here, can you put the baby on the boob and try and fix this problem? At least then you're working as a team, um, which is what we're trying to promote.

[00:52:05] Emma Pickett: Yeah, a hundred percent. Okay, let's talk about breastfeeding in public. Someone says, how can we reduce the embarrassment some dads face with breastfeeding in public? 

[00:52:13] Scott Mair: Do you want to go first on this one again? 

[00:52:16] Emma Pickett: Um, I would say that that's true for women too. I think, you know, everyone feels a bit, sometimes a bit awkward about breastfeeding in public.

I don't think that's specific to dads necessarily. Um, so my experience is that most people worry about it, but actually once they do it, it's not an issue. Okay. Um, and it's very, very rare for anyone to get a comment or a negative comment. And I actually think sometimes dads might worry about that in theory before baby comes, but when they're actually there with their partner, with their baby, you know, this big daddy bear protective vibe will come out and they're, they're not going to be worried about the looks from the person next to them on the day.

table next to them. They're going to be worried about how their partner's feeling. They're going to be wanting to make sure their baby's fed. Um, and, and just send to your focus on, on your partner and the baby. Don't, don't worry about anyone else. I would honestly say, don't even look, you know, if you're a glasses wearer, take your glasses off.

Don't even look around to see what everyone else is doing, because if you catch the eye of somebody else, you might catch someone's eye who's rolling their eyes. So don't look for it. Um, just think about how your partner's feeling. Think about what you can do to support that feed in that moment. Um, and if you do feel a bit embarrassed, no one's going to blame you for that.

That's normal and natural. We haven't grown up seeing breastfeeding around us. Most of us, you know, you don't have to try and drive that embarrassment out of your body. It's not some evil feeling that's wrong. It's really normal and natural. Accept that in yourself, but also just, just focus on baby and focus on your partner.

[00:53:40] Scott Mair: Brilliant. And I think that the only bit I would add is the professional aspect, which parents can't control is that you mentioned it. And at the beginning, there's sometimes the removal. from that conversation when we start talking about it, that doesn't reduce any embarrassment. It actually heightens it.

Um, because we do sometimes, and this is both, this is both parents and just society in general, we sexualize the breast. So that's the bit that sometimes is uncomfortable with the public feeding. And if we're excluding them from the conversation around feeding, we're not doing anything to reduce the fact that it's something you should be embarrassed about.

Whereas if we bring them into that conversation and become a more comfortable around the fact of what it is actually there for and its purpose and like you've just said perfectly that people are really not always paying that much attention and just focus on yourselves. So if we could add a little bit more in terms of the education and the conversation around it to bring them into it for no other reason than it reduces that, um, the embarrassment or the uncomfortableness and if they've got more education, more understanding, they become more of a support so that there's both So many benefits to include them in that conversation and not trying to in height Heighten the embarrassment by keeping them out of that conversation, but that's more professional than parent.

[00:54:53] Emma Pickett: Yeah, definitely Okay. Next question How do I know when I am moving from encouraging my wife to breastfeed when it's hard to guilting her or forcing her to feed? 

[00:55:03] Scott Mair: Yeah We touched on that, didn't we? Um, very fine line, I personally believe. Um, and I think it, communication, again, everything seems to come down to communication.

I think it's, you know your person most often better than somebody else. Um, and they might not have done this before, but you'll probably be able to read some of the signs between, I can't do this anymore. And I'm finding it a little bit difficult and challenging and sometimes they might look similar, but I think it's trying to have that, that conversation and be honest and say, look, I want to be supportive, but I need you to be able to tell me if I'm doing too much, if I'm going too far, am I pushing too much?

That's not the intention. The intention is to offer you support. We haven't done this before, so I don't know where that line for support is. I need you to know I'm just trying to help, but if it ever feels like it's not. I need us to be able to have that conversation. Other than that, I think it is just trying to make sure that you're just having the conversations when they're there.

You're offering support. You're giving them a chance to voice any concerns that they've got. Like you mentioned at the beginning, before you get to that stage, find out what's available in terms of support in the area. Getting the support that may be from peer supporters that might work in the community, from your Whoever's in your community that might be able to offer that assistance or support so that if you feel like you're maybe giving too much encouragement, it can be, well, here's some advice.

Maybe sort of get some advice so it's not necessarily coming from me But these are the places that you can you can get that advice and then I will support Whatever you need and that would probably be all that I would add to that, but I'll be led by you 

[00:56:43] Emma Pickett: No, I think that's great I think I think one of the things I'd probably say is you just have to take it day by day And if I'm and if someone says oh my god, I can't do this anymore.

I've got to give up You don't necessarily have to say anything in that moment You don't necessarily have to respond to that with, absolutely, let's, let's, let's give up now. Let's work, let me work out how to transfer, you know, well, it's research formula, let's work. You don't have to come up with the practical answer to that question.

Sometimes you just absorb that energy, let it happen and go, yeah, I hear you understand. I know this is hard. Because sometimes people will say that without necessarily wanting you to leap on it as a definite reason to end things. Um, and I would just say that, you know, sometimes when you are a dad watching your partner go through a difficult time, you know, being literally in physical pain.

It's really tempting to want to fix that and and you you can't really fix that because What happens around feeding has to be kind of I use the word future proofed quite a lot You want to look back in 10 years time and know that that you what you weren't the one that pushed a decision in any direction So it's super hard because you want to be the fixer and you want to solve the problems, but you just have to kind of reflect what they're saying, you know, absorb their energy, try and give them emotional support, but, but not necessarily push them to either decision in any direction.

Brilliant advice. It's a skill. It's a skill. I'm not saying it's easy. Um, they may even say, what do you think I should do? And you know, how hard to answer that question when you really want to say, I don't want to answer that question. Um, But it's just, you know, what's, what's going on today? What can we do today?

Is there someone we can talk to? Is there a, is it worth calling a helpline? What's the actual problem right now? Um, you don't have to decide today if you're going to end breastfeeding. And also lots of people do mix feeding. You know, the, the idea that it's, it's a black and white thing is, is not necessarily true either.

Um, Okay, so I'm gonna realize we're coming up on an hour now, which in podcast world is considered, I'm going to be cheeky Scott and say, can I get you back for another session? Because I have a feeling we're gonna, we're gonna need to not to keep talking about this. But this is a really important question.

So I want to make sure we get this one in. Okay. How do I stop feeling jealous of my wife and baby's connection? I should be happy, but I feel left out. 

[00:59:00] Scott Mair: Again, very, very common, very, very natural. And it's something that we work on quite a lot. Everything seems to go back to communication. It's trying to have that conversation about how you're feeling, but it's going back to the connection, you know, it's trying to what we do.

And again, everyone's got their own opinion on this. And this is what I've learned from my experience is we're trying to compare our journeys. We're not on the same journey, um, and sometimes there is a faster connection with one parent than there's the other. It's predominantly the person that carries and gives birth to the baby, not always, but predominantly it is.

And it's, we're trying to compare to where they are and realistically, again, going back to the breastfeeding, just focus on you. That bit, the bit that you can control your relationship with your child, is the bit that you try and focus on. So it's natural to look and think, God, she's making it look so much easier than I am, or baby's so much happier.

They settle so much more with baby, but it's trying to work on the bit that you can control, which is your relationship with them, and try and blend the two together, um, is one of the bits. I say this all the time, apart from breastfeeding, I genuinely believe there's nothing that my wife Sarah can do as a parent that I can't.

She's better at all of it. I've never disputed that, but it was learning what I've just said then that sometimes we are doing things differently. We have different strengths. As they develop, children learn what they need and who they need it from. They learn that very, very quickly, and there will be things that they've not experienced yet, that when they do, they're going to lean towards the other parent.

It'll be different things. And as they get older, like in my house, my boys go to Sarah for finance. They go for money. They go to mom all the time, but for that sort of emotional support or practical support, they come to dad. If they're not well, they go to mom. If they're scared, they come to dad. So if they woke up with a nightmare, they come to dad.

If they wake up, don't feel very well. They've got a sore throat and they can't swallow because it's all swollen. They go to mommy. And. You've got to learn to work together. Whereas in the beginning, you're just seeing what's happening in those first few weeks or first few months. And they will be leaning to one person cause that's safe.

That's all they know. That's they know those smells, that heartbeat, that sound that's where they know they feel safe. And we don't really want to break that because we want them to feel safe. And it's just working on that little bit of studying them, um, understanding them, the skin to skin, the sling wear, and all of these things to improve that relationship and again, owning it.

And giving yourself permission that I shouldn't feel like this, it's really bad. No, it's okay. It's quite natural to feel like this. Um, because you're going to become a little bit competitive because you both want this. You want to be the favorite. We all sort of want to be the favorite. Um, and we struggle with that sometimes.

So it would just be the focus on your relationship with your, your child, but except the fact that it's a natural feeling to feel like that. And most of us, if we're being honest, I've felt like that. I think most dads I've ever worked with at one point will feel like that. And sometimes if, uh, Baby's bonding more, um, with dad, which we do see quite a lot, it's, I'm the one that carried and gave birth to that baby, and they just want him all of the time.

So it does go both ways. 

[01:02:09] Emma Pickett: It does go both ways. I was gonna say, and when your 6-year-old, you know, wants to spend a day with dad and you know you're not part of that, the mom's gonna have her turn. It it, you know, but it's harder at the beginning. Yeah. When everyone's learning to be a parent. And you know, as you say, new roles are developing and new people are.

Changing and it can feel more painful at the very beginning because you think, well, is this it forever? Now, am I going to feel second best forever? Yeah, it does. It can feel like a rejection and, and that's, as you say, that's completely natural. I think sometimes there is some deep stuff going on there about.

Relationships with our own mums. I mean if you're a bloke and maybe your relationship your mum isn't great, you know You know, we're not going to disappear and pay for expensive therapy But let's be honest sometimes some of these triggers are subconscious stuff on deep levels So we need to sort of own that Try and think about that a little bit, but ultimately, if your child has that amazing foundation of that relationship with, with your partner, that foundation makes them a more confident, trusting, happy little person who's then absolutely going to run to you with open arms, you know, when the time comes 

[01:03:16] Scott Mair: to celebrate it, embrace it.

[01:03:17] Emma Pickett: Yeah, it's, it's, and, and you, you know, as the mom holds the baby, you hold both of them. I mean, literally and metaphorically, your job is to kind of look after both of them and be part of that connection by supporting the unit. We sometimes talk about that word dyad, which means that the mum and the baby are not actually separate people at the beginning, and the baby literally doesn't think it's a separate person.

It thinks it's very much connected to the mum. So, you know, there's some biological stuff going on there that we can't always apply logic to. Um, you know, some deep feeling stuff that we sometimes just have to, as you say, just watch, watch and observe and learn and, and sit back from and realize that we're talking about weeks, maybe months, but your baby's around for years, decades.

And you're going to, you're going to have a chance to, to form that relationship in a really special way. Perfect. Um, okay, Scott, I'm actually going to suggest we pause there. I'm going to be really cheeky and say, I have literally 10 more questions here and loads of them on natural term breastfeeding, which we haven't touched on at all.

So I would love to do another whole episode with you and particularly talk about natural term breastfeeding, which I think, um, you know, not all dads are, are confident about or know a lot, a lot about. Is, is that, would that be okay? I know it's a bit cheeky to bring that one you. No, it's not cheeky at all.

Definitely. So, I'm gonna suggest that when we finish week. We get our diaries together and maybe look, you know, next month and see, or the month after and see what's around. And, and we will come back to this topic, dads and breastfeeding because it's so important, but I am so grateful for your time today.

You are a wise man. I would say, um, I'm really in awe of how you look at things and not just from your experience as a dad, but also just, just your experience in supporting other dads as well. So I'm really excited to continue this conversation. Thank you very much for today. 

[01:04:58] Scott Mair: very much. As am I, looking forward to it too.

[01:05:05] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at emmapicketibclc and on Twitter at makesmilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.