Metasha's story - 7 breastfeeding journeys

Another candidate for the breastfeeding hall of fame, my guest this week is Metasha who has fed her seven children over 20 years! Unlike many of my guests, Metasha’s story isn’t one of enormous challenges and struggles. Her attitude to breastfeeding and parenting has been to go with the flow, and to respond to her family’s needs, although she does admit that she sometimes lost herself in that process. Nearing the end of her breastfeeding journey with her youngest child, she is now beginning to focus on her maternal wellness business, teaching baby yoga and baby massage among other things.

You can find Metasha on Instagram @‌the_hart_of_mothering

My latest book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This Transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a Lactation Consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children, and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end, and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end.

to join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making them.

Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm really excited to be looking at the face of Natasha from Oxfordshire. I mentioned in an episode a few weeks ago the concept of a breastfeeding hall of fame and Natasha is definitely in the breastfeeding hall of fame. She has her own exhibition space.

She's been breastfeeding for 20 years, 20 years of continuous breastfeeding. Take a breath for those of you going, what? I'm just managing 18 months. Um, she is currently breastfeeding baby number seven. And maybe possibly coming to the end of that journey. We'll talk about what that feels like and, and how does it feel to be coming to the end of 20 years of breastfeeding?

If it's half your life, almost half your life, I'm guessing. I mean, that's such an enormous stage to say goodbye to. So we'll be talking about that, but we'll also be talking about what it feels like to breastfeed seven people and how the experiences differ. And I'm just really looking forward, Matasha, to absorbing all your expertise and all your experience.

Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it. Thank 

[00:01:48] Metasha: you so much for having 

[00:01:48] Emma Pickett: me. So you are a baby massage and baby yoga person. Is that a good way of describing it? Yes. And for anyone who doesn't know, baby yoga, that's not about Putting babies on mats in downward dog position. That's about doing yoga with your baby if you are postpartum.

Is that the idea? No, it's actually the stretches for the baby. I'm glad I asked. I thought it was a bit like goat yoga where your baby was like on your tummy while you were doing yoga. No, okay. So it is actually yoga for the baby. I'm really glad I asked. Yeah, it is 

[00:02:20] Metasha: quite um, misunderstood and people assume that it is postpartum yoga for, for mummies.

But it's actually, um, specific stretches that helps with baby's development and it works nicely with baby massage. So both of them are quite ancient, um, Indian tradition. So, uh, 

[00:02:38] Emma Pickett: yeah. Fantastic. And then, I mean, I'm familiar with like toddler yoga, cause there were these, there were little lovely resources out there with kind of pretzel yoga and positions that toddlers can do.

But someone who's starting yoga in babyhood, they're going to be really good at the Lotus position when they're not very old at all. Um, so baby massage and baby yoga really naturally go together in terms of like whole baby body work and, and looking after baby's whole body movement. 

[00:03:03] Metasha: Yes, yes. The benefits of positive touch.

So like I said, it is, um, a tradition that dates back centuries. So I also come from a pharmacy healthcare background. So it, there's lots and lots of science now that back up this practice that has been doing for generations. So there are lots of benefits to positive touch, um, uh, bonding between parents, which is so, so important to get right.

Uh, in the first 1001 days, all that comes together nicely is a very simple act of baby massage and baby yoga. 

[00:03:35] Emma Pickett: Okay. So you were a pharmacist before babies in a pre 

[00:03:40] Metasha: parenting world? I studied pharmacy in South Africa, uh, when I moved to the UK, um, I worked as a technician just because of, uh, conversion, et cetera.

So it was with NHS 4. About 10 years, and I've only recently gone back into the pharmacy world after a seven year break just to, um, yeah, brush up my knowledge, maintain my registration. 

[00:04:04] Emma Pickett: Yeah, wow, 

[00:04:05] Metasha: gosh, back to the world 

[00:04:06] Emma Pickett: after that length of time. So when you are thinking about the size of your family, did you come from a big family?

How many siblings do you have? I have one younger brother, so. Wow, okay. So, I'm, you're going to feel free to like, hit me on the head over this, Matasha, because I'm going to ask you lots of stupid questions and I want you to make sure you have, feel free to tell me to stop being a twit if I'm being a twit.

I always assume that someone with a big family comes from a big family because that's their normal. So thank you for dispelling that myth, first of all. What about your partner? Did they come from big family? Uh, yes, he had, um, four 

[00:04:40] Metasha: siblings, so yes. 

[00:04:41] Emma Pickett: Okay, and when the two of you got together, did you think, right, let's go for it, let's see what we can do?

We're aiming for double figures, uh, how did it happen? Did it, did you plan or it just, just pregnancies naturally happened? 

[00:04:55] Metasha: Yeah, we had our eldest just towards the end of our university career, so we were still pretty much students at that start of our parenting journey. Cool. So she's 20 now. So back then there wasn't Google to look up anything because it was just, um, yeah, we were away from you at uni with just us.

So it started off just the two of us from, from the beginning. Um, yeah. And then it just, yeah, happened. Yeah. Yeah. As it often does. So yes. 

[00:05:23] Emma Pickett: So that's not, you talked about being away, which makes me think that the two of you were away from wider family and didn't necessarily have a lot of wider family support.

Is that, is that a fair description? 

[00:05:34] Metasha: Yes, yeah. 

[00:05:35] Emma Pickett: Yeah, 

[00:05:35] Metasha: not easy. Yeah, we moved to England, uh, when my eldest, just before her second birthday. So we've been here for, yeah, about 18 years. Uh, yeah. And then that was even further away from our family. Okay. 

[00:05:49] Emma Pickett: So your, your family, you, you were living in South Africa and how long had your family been in South Africa?

Are they generations in South Africa or fairly recent arrivals? 

[00:05:59] Metasha: No, no generations. So, um, think about my great grandfather was one of the, um, first lot of Indians who came down to South Africa to work in the sugarcane fields back then. But, yeah, we haven't been to India. South Africa is our home. We are South African, but we do have a lot of Indian culture in us.

But, yeah, not, uh, we have not been to India. What brought you to the UK? Uh, my husband's grandparents. And so after uni, it was just, we thought it would be a cool thing to go and, um, explore. We were only meant to be here for a couple of years and then, um, Work and then the children and then it kind of happened.

It was funny how we had, I had once planned for myself to go off to uni and then probably go back to my family hometown and that was the plan and life had other plans. 

[00:06:49] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I just love the way you're kind of like, Hey, this is just the way life took me. 

[00:06:53] Metasha: And 

[00:06:53] Emma Pickett: the idea of having an adventure and coming to the UK when you've got a new baby, that's also a sign of what a brave person you are.

I'm not even changing my brand of washing up liquid very often. So you're obviously quite a brave person. Did you know a lot about breastfeeding before you had your first? Was that something that was in your mind? If you came from a science y background, did that mean you'd sort of done all your research?

What were your feelings about breastfeeding? 

[00:07:14] Metasha: Uh, well, no, a science y background was just very academic. It wasn't really, I wasn't, no, just, it was just the studying part. Later on, with the practical experience, I've had, um, a different mindset, but, uh, I breastfed till the age of four. So I think that started, um, I didn't think it was just normal to me.

I just, uh, my mom had me quite young. So she was quite fortunate. She had the support of her mum and my dad's mum. So we had a She, yeah, like a joint family with my dad's parents. She lived with them. So she had a lot of support, hence I assume four years, but she did also work full time. Wow, good, good for her.

[00:07:54] Emma Pickett: It's really lovely to meet somebody that breastfed until they were four. I spend a lot of time meeting little people who are breastfeeding until they're four, but I very rarely meet an adult that breastfed until they were four. So, let's be nosy and talk about that first of all. Do you have any memories of your own breastfeeding?

[00:08:09] Metasha: Uh, vaguely, I just remember that towards the end when my brother came along, I think that's when it kind of, I remember this, the ending of it. So you're, so she was tandem feeding, was she? 

[00:08:19] Emma Pickett: No, 

[00:08:19] Metasha: sadly, sadly for him, it didn't go to plan as much. So she didn't, he didn't, bless him, he didn't get as much milk as he was formula fed.

I suppose it was also the time that we were in, it was like encouraged formula feeding was, um, there at that point. And in South Africa, you only get four months maternity leave. So, so she, yeah, had to go back to work. And I don't think pumping was, we didn't have any breast pumps and things back then. We 

[00:08:48] Emma Pickett: certainly didn't have the kind that we have now, but there was, I know, you know, the Victorian era had these interesting sort of bicycle pump type things, but it, there wasn't that culture, was there, 2020?

No, it's not. 

[00:08:58] Metasha: Especially in South Africa. And then it was still apartheid. So we had a lot of, we didn't have as much opportunities, even if there was, she wouldn't have been one of those people who would have been. given that chance. So yeah, so he, uh, he was a formula baby, but, uh, that, yeah. And then she just had the two of us.

Um, then that was it. 

[00:09:18] Emma Pickett: So when you say you've got kind of vague memories towards the end, so because of the timing of your brother being there, that must've been, you're remembering that as the time when you must've also been feeding, but you don't have specific memories of feeds or tastes or anything like that.

I was going to ask about the South Africa thing. Cause quite a lot of people. Talk to me about how breastfeeding rates in South Africa aren't particularly high, and there is quite a tradition of, you know, people having extra childcare and going back to work quite early, and there's not a lot of, you know, what we might call attachment parenting.

Is that, is that a misconception? 

[00:09:53] Metasha: It is slightly, because they, remember, South Africa is quite a diverse country. So the people that can afford the childcare and formula milk are the ones that, um, are You know, I would have that option, but a lot of cultures, a lot of tribal women, they breastfeed, they go to work with their babies on their back.

A lot of times we, uh, it's not child care, it's the children are by, um, uh, relatives, grandparents, like I was when my mom went back to work. So I think, um, it's just different, uh, groups of people. So, uh, a lot. Not everybody is. It's a lot of the privilege. There's a big division between those who, uh, can afford things and have a certain lifestyle.

And then there's the other half, which is which the majority is of people who just breastfeeding is free. And, um, you are encouraged if you get to the, like, uh, government or the NHS version of healthcare in South Africa, you're actually encouraged. And that was my first memory when I was pregnant because, um, My husband and I were still students, so we couldn't afford private healthcare, so when I went over to the clinics there, the, um, nurses were very much pro breastfeeding, because, um, from a benefit for the baby, so it was, you know, healthy, they had food, it was discouraged to mix with other, you know, maize meal and et cetera that they were trying to move away from.

So that was my first aim to breastfeed until two because the midwife that I saw said you 

[00:11:24] Emma Pickett: should try it to the age of two. Great. It wasn't from me. To have that conversation anti natally is, is, that's quite powerful, isn't it? For someone to say, I mean, in the UK they sort of say, are you thinking of breastfeeding or have you decided how you're going to feed your baby?

But there someone is saying, right, we'd like you to breastfeed until two, which is amazing. It's interesting what you're saying about the sort of economic. Um, elements because in the UK, you know, you've obviously been here a long time and you're in the baby world. So you know this as well as anybody. We do actually have a slight correlation where lower income families in the UK are less likely to breastfeed and higher income families are more likely to breastfeed.

Um, and it's obviously that is not the truth of the vast majority of the global population. And, and you mentioned that you're, you know, obviously you'd been born in South Africa that was under apartheid. And so. That does that mean that because of economic struggles, people were breastfeeding just simply out of practicality that it was getting access to formula wasn't realistic.

[00:12:20] Metasha: Yeah. And I think when formula was introduced, it was more for the elite, for the people who could afford it. So you've had a lot of those groups felt. It was cool to formula feed and not breastfeed and have the help, the helpers to do the night feeds, et cetera, to show that you are from a more of a upper class, you know, more of a privilege than that you could afford somebody to.

Take over the nighttime duties, et cetera. So 

[00:12:44] Emma Pickett: yeah, funny, funny 

[00:12:45] Metasha: stage, 

[00:12:46] Emma Pickett: very odd stage in human history, isn't it? And, and a lot of, and a lot of very powerful people in the business world wanted that message. The idea that formula feeding is aspirational, you know, that doesn't happen by accident. That is some very, well, we know that some of the practices going on in South Africa around marketing and, and, you know, marketing formula was really, really unethical and worrying and, and family struggled as a result of that.

Thanks for giving us some that context, Natasha. I really appreciate it. So how old was your baby when you moved to the UK? 

[00:13:16] Metasha: Uh, she was just a month before she turned two. Okay. Yeah. 

[00:13:20] Emma Pickett: And you'd been told to breastfeed till she was two. Does that mean you had a calendar on your wall and you thought, right, we've got to two.

We're done. What was your thinking about the ending of that journey? 

[00:13:30] Metasha: Uh, well, I very early on in parenting realized that, um, to follow my baby's cue. So once I let go of that expectation of her to do certain things, according to what books said, I was a much happier mummy. So I had no expectation.

Islamically, uh, my husband and I, uh, are Muslim, so it is in, recommended to the age of two. So also I had that at the back of my mind as well. So, uh, yeah, I had, I was just going with the flow, actually. I didn't say that on her second birthday she was going to stop, I just went with it. And because we were settling in the UK, finding our space, I felt it was easy for her to have that comfort.

I mean, she always had a drink when she needed one. And, um, it, I wasn't in a rush just to help with the transition. And, um, yeah, 

[00:14:20] Emma Pickett: Oh, that sounds lovely. Well, actually, I'm really glad to hear that with baby number one, you'd already discovered to listen to your instincts and put the books aside and go with the flow.

Pattern that I often hear when people have got more than one child is that with number one, they, Kind of regret how they were very structured and they thought they had to follow all the rules and they, you know, tried scheduling and they, and it was only really later on they discovered, you know, with subsequent babies that they discovered.

So sometimes people will look back with number one and think, Oh, I'm so sorry. Number one that I didn't realize then, you know, I should have listened to you, but you had that from the very beginning, which is great. And I'm going to assume that's down to your personality and your husband's and, and something about your family upbringing as well, that you already were following her cue, which is.

Really special. 

[00:15:05] Metasha: Don't get me wrong. I'm still always learning with baby number one, even to this day, she's 20 and I, by the time she's number seven, I'm more of an expert, but with her it's just always be learning and I ask her to be patient with me because it's just as new for me as it is for her. So I think that's just being the eldest.

I 

[00:15:23] Emma Pickett: relate to that. I relate to that. Can I just ask you a quick question about Islam and breastfeeding? So I've been talking to different people about their different experiences. And it seems to be that there's a slightly different interpretation as happens with all, you know, religions and different, you know, interpretations of texts.

And it seems to be that some people believe that Two is a minimum. Some people believe that two is a cut off and almost going beyond two is problematic. Um, some people, you know, feel that the aim is to try to breastfeed, but if you don't, that that's obviously not necessarily a problem at all. And it's just about having a go.

Where did you kind of, where do you kind of fall in that, in that spectrum? 

[00:16:01] Metasha: I think, uh, it is, uh, you're encouraged up to the age of two. There isn't, I don't see it as a cutoff at two, if you can, you know, aim and your baby and is happy. So if you make it to two, and now we see from World Health Organization, all the benefits that breastfeeding to the minimum of two has its benefits.

So I think, uh, uh, a book that has been around for so long to state that is amazing. That's before science could back it up. So I just think of it as not, um, A cutoff and then beyond, one day beyond, I can't, to me, it doesn't make sense to stressfully stop breastfeeding just because they turn two. And in my opinion, I don't feel that that's comfortable.

I'm not comfortable with that. So, uh, if you can, to the age of two, That's great. And, uh, it's just when they're ready to wean off. So that has been my approach, uh, with all of them. 

[00:16:57] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, what you said about stressfully, I mean, that's not a great word when we're talking about ending breastfeeding, is it?

No. And if the whole purpose of breastfeeding has been about meeting child's needs and, and getting the child the best start. You know, it doesn't seem logical that anyone would want a stressful end to that breastfeeding experience just because there's a day on the calendar. We're going back a long time now, 20 years.

What do you remember about the end of that breastfeeding journey? 

[00:17:22] Metasha: I think I was already pregnant with her brother then. So towards that end of that, it wasn't, uh, again, I would have had lots of input from, uh, well meaning people saying that I should stop because it has, it will impact my pregnancy and, uh, so forth.

But, um, Yeah, I think towards the end, I did, um, try to say no more, which maybe I shouldn't have. So she did have some times when she was, and then I'd give in because it was just too much for me to bear, to feel her distress and it was just easier. And then it gradually, I think about six months before he was born, it just, just happened that she just was started a nursery and she was going busy and then it just, one day she just didn't want any and then we had a big celebration that she was a big girl and then that was it and then six months later it started again.

Yeah. 

[00:18:16] Emma Pickett: So you didn't necessarily consciously sit down and go, right, I don't want to carry on feeding through pregnancy. It just, it kind of quite happened quite organically and naturally. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I'm aware with seven children. What is not going to be the world's most interesting podcast is me going, okay, number two, tell me about number two.

Okay. Tell me about number three. Okay. Tell me about number four. Cause that's not going to be super interesting. So I'm going to ask you some macro questions if that's okay. So did your feelings about breastfeeding change through your seven breastfeeding journeys? 

[00:18:46] Metasha: No, I was, uh, nope. I had every intention to, I think I was quite lucky to have had a positive start with the first one.

I think that midwife who had that talk with me on my first antenatal visit, just somehow, I can't remember her name or anything, but, uh, it just something in me decided that I was going to attempt till the age of two. And I have what I do for one, I'll aim to do for the rest. So I did that with my second and it just, uh, kind of flowed here.

We did a little bit of combi feeding because, uh, I was in the process of, um, getting my, uh, my qualifications accredited, and it was just a tiny period where I had to commit to going back to work full time ish. So, um, when he was about nine months, he went to a childminder, which she did, um, have a bit of formula, but then he would, when we, when we were together, he would breastfeed.

So that didn't put him off. People said that he'd be confused between the different, um, teats, the bottle and me. So, but he was fine. So as soon as we'd meet again, he'd latch on and we continued to two and a half again. 

[00:19:56] Emma Pickett: Cool. And then that ended with you being pregnant with number three or have you ever had a gap of, I guess, maths wise, have you ever had a, what's your longest gap of not feeding?

I guess you've always been feeding 20 years continuously. I've always been feeding as either pregnant or breastfeeding for the last 20 years. Okay, so breastfeeding journeys have, have ended almost always during pregnancy, but not always because you have done some tandem feeding, haven't you? Yes, the last, uh, yeah, the last three.

Okay. So let's go back to number two, bit of combi feeding, but a great example of how that's not a barrier to continuing breastfeeding at all. Um, and the end of that journey, you were pregnant. Are you somebody who. notices what happens to their supply during pregnancy? Are you somebody who notices a massive decrease in milk supply?

Do you get nipple sensitivity? Do you get any aversion? You've got to be a pretty, pretty expert on breastfeeding and pregnancy. How does it feel for you to breastfeed in pregnancy? 

[00:20:50] Metasha: I didn't have any, I didn't have any issues. I actually felt that, um, I don't know. My focus was at the baby in my arms. So it wasn't, I think I was just going with, with the feeling.

So when I was breastfeeding them, I just didn't make me feel anything different. And I, I don't know, they seem to be happy with it. And I've heard stories of parents saying that their toddler didn't like the taste when they were breastfeeding and then that's how they weaned. But, uh, yeah, I didn't feel any different with my supply.

It was, I've always had that to feed and demand. So. For something that I just did, and, uh, 

[00:21:26] Emma Pickett: Yeah. So no particular pain, no particular sensitivity. You just got on with it. Not that I remember. Not that you remember. You've had enough months of it, I'm sure it would have struck, struck you if it was happening.

Okay. And, and so he stopped at two and a half, again, was that one that you had to kind of really prod and poke to make happen or was it as natural fading away? It 

[00:21:46] Metasha: just kind of happened. We were speaking about it because he was a stage where he could understand that he's no longer a baby and that, you know, he's, he can have.

big boy milk and he, we kind of like swapped feeds for, um, um, dairy products and stuff like that. So it was a lot of communication from both sides. So we had a discussion and he knew that he was coming towards the end. So I think bedtimes were the hardest because he, of everybody, was at childcare longer.

So he, uh, knew that when I wasn't with him, he'd have other feeds. But, uh, towards the end he was, yeah. So we just kind of just gently found our pattern and It just happened. I can't actually say I remember like date that it stopped. It just kind of flowed. 

[00:22:31] Emma Pickett: I think that's quite often what happens when breastfeeding naturally comes to an end.

Like I can't remember either of my breastfeeding journeys and dates. Um, and lots of people will say that they don't even know when the last feed was. They don't even have a recollection of the last feed because it just, it just naturally fades. It just gradually, you don't realize it's the last one when it's happening.

And then you look back and go, hang on, that's been a week. That's been four days. Yeah. So I think a lot of people will relate to that. So you then had number three coming along and you were pregnant for a little bit without breastfeeding Yes. Do you ever have an issue when a new baby comes and older siblings are like, Oh, breastfeeding.

I remember that. Can we have another go? Have you ever had anyone requesting to start again? 

[00:23:13] Metasha: No, no, I haven't had that with the, no, I've had stories of that happen. No, I haven't had that. Uh, yeah, they've been, I've been very, uh, even with the very open. So my old children would come to antenatal visits. We knew about how babies happen in, uh, so they were very, very open about discussions like that.

age appropriate, obviously. So we were very, so when the baby came along, they knew that she was, you know, the baby and I always included them in activities. So not to feel left out, etc. Because I was very well aware that they didn't have grandparents around or not. So I had to make sure that they felt comfortable with each other.

But we didn't have that have support of, I mean, someone's 

[00:23:58] Emma Pickett: listening to this thinking, okay, hang on, you're living in a country, you don't have extended family. You don't have necessarily a big network of old, old friends because all your university friends were, you know, early adult friends are back in South Africa.

When you've got baby number six being born and there are five other children in the home, how do you do it? What are your magic tricks? We need to know right now. Um, what are you doing to make that home a home where you can meet everybody's needs and you can also look after the baby and you don't end up turning into a wizened pile on the floor?

What's your trick? Let's picture, let's take a picture. Okay, let's imagine baby number six. It's two o'clock in the afternoon. Some people are at school, some people might be at nursery, but you've got several people there. What's your setup at home? What, how do you sort of organize your day? 

[00:24:48] Metasha: I'm always going with the flow.

I think my whole parenting journey is going with the flow. I try not to, obviously, you know, it can be, but everything in context, I try not to have too high expectations. We just go with what everybody needs. And at the end of the day, I, um, had to prioritize and what had us at the last of my list was housework.

So I say to anybody that had to go. So as long as I cook fresh meal every day for the children, they've got clean clothes, I'm there for them. But one day I'll have a tidy house. But for now, that's not the thing. But apart from that, we just, uh, it's easier now that they are at a nice stage. If I had said you had seven under 10, then maybe it's a bit, because the older four were three years apart.

So, you know, it was like a nice gap so that the older ones were a little bit more independent and more helpful with the younger ones. And now, uh, we, I'm at a very, very nice stage where I can actually, we, we watched the fireworks a couple of weeks ago without having anybody on my hips. So without anybody, so everybody could watch it as I'm embracing the stage.

Which is, which is nice having, um, The different, um, ages and health.

[00:26:07] Emma Pickett: A little advert just to say that you can buy my four books online. You've Got It In You, a positive guide to breastfeeding, is 99p as an e book and that's aimed at expectant and new parents. The Breast Book, published by Pinter and Martin, is a guide for 9 14 year olds and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed.

And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding. For a 10 percent discount on the last two, go to jessicakingsleypress, that's uk. jkp. com and use the code mmpe10. Makes milk, pick it, Emma, 10.

So talk me through the everyone's ages. So we've got 20 

[00:26:57] Metasha: and we've got 17. Yeah, we've got We're going to be have a 14 year old in December. So almost 14 We have an 11 year old and then came our boys who are 17 months apart So they're now currently a 7 and 5 but in January will I have a 6 and our youngest was 2 

[00:27:15] Emma Pickett: Okay.

[00:27:16] Metasha: Okay. 

[00:27:17] Emma Pickett: So the seven and the five did do some tandem feeding. Is that right? They did. Yeah. Tell me about how that happened. Was that a conscious decision or again, you're going with the flow? That's just the way it went. 

[00:27:28] Metasha: Well, yeah. Well, they were, um, my closest age, 17 months. So we were back in South Africa when I had, so I've had my three girls and my boy for a long time and kinda that was it in my mind, but we had the opportunity to go back to South Africa because.

Uh, my gran was unwell and just, um, my husband worked from home, so we took the opportunity. And that's when, um, baby number, uh, five was born in South Africa. So when we came back to the UK, we found out about baby number six and he was still, uh, baby number five was still 17, just a year old. So yeah, he continued feeding and, uh, baby number three was my last hospital birth.

And then the rest. Purely because of childcare, I felt it was just easier being home. Yeah. And, uh, so when baby number six was born, baby number five just came in and helped itself to a feet while I was trying to adjust them. So it just happened and they fed for a couple of, yeah, years together. And, uh, yeah, I didn't think I had, it wasn't a plan.

I hadn't hear much stories of tandem feeding, not twins, not like siblings. So, um, it was new to me, but again. So it just worked for us at that point. 

[00:28:42] Emma Pickett: What was the hardest thing about it? 

[00:28:44] Metasha: About having two, especially if you were in the hot months, having two people on you, demanding air. But, um, yeah, I think that, that was sometimes the hardest, but I also, um, co slept with them.

So it was just easier at night, especially if I had to, when you ask me how my household runs, if I had to have them in separate rooms and separate quads, I think I would have been tired, but because I had them with me. And we got to this pattern very early on where they would feed and sleep and I would sleep and it just kind of obviously with all the safety measures in place and we both were arrested.

So I just, uh, it just worked for our family having it. 

[00:29:22] Emma Pickett: That way. And do you notice that their relationship is, is different, do you think, because they tandem fed? 

[00:29:27] Metasha: I'm just curious. Yeah, I was, because they're similar ages, they have not had any major rivalry. You know, even with toys, they're very good at sharing.

My eldest is very understanding of his brother. They, they, I think they work so nicely at the stage, so they haven't had any issues with anything. They're also like, today was pajama day, they're happy to go in matching pajamas. Yeah. It's. They're still very, very close, which I, I kind of feel it's due to them having that bond through tandem feeding.

So we haven't had any, um, Yeah, boisterous behavior between the two of them. They've always worked as a team for a lot of things, which is sweet. 

[00:30:04] Emma Pickett: That's really special to hear. And, and did the eldest one end breastfeeding before the younger one? Or did they end roughly? Yeah. What was the sort of time difference?

Um, 

[00:30:13] Metasha: I think about eight months before I think because he, um, yeah, when he started, uh, Yeah. Just before he turned three. I think they were a bit longer and again, it was locked down so we didn't have much thing. So he, when he started going back to nursery and then both of them just before closer to three rather than two and a half was their journey.

Yeah. Okay. 

[00:30:36] Emma Pickett: You just said the word lockdown and the hairs on the back of my neck went up because I just didn't, I just realized what your lockdown experience must've been like. Um, wow. So you had a lot of people in the house during that period of time. Yeah. What was it like for you? 

[00:30:51] Metasha: During the, uh, difficult part of lockdown, we were still in South Africa.

So fortunately, the space was on our side. The weather was on our side. We had that during the intense time where we couldn't leave our house. So I think that helped a lot being in England, you know, smaller houses that I think that might have been a bit of a struggle because we were quite lucky we had a, we could see the beach.

We could see, um, yeah, we had the swimming pool, so they were lucky they could have outdoor. 

[00:31:20] Emma Pickett: That's makes a huge difference. I think. What were the rules like in South Africa? Were you allowed on the beach? I know in some countries, even beaches were closed. 

[00:31:27] Metasha: Um, we, at, I a point there were beaches were closed, but then we allowed like certain time period where you could go.

Uh, I think we had like a curfew between the morning for an hour. So you could go outside, like how, how we had the walks in England. So it was like a couple of hours in the morning where everybody could, yeah. So that was nice. 

[00:31:48] Emma Pickett: So I'm, I'm getting this vibe from you. that you coped because of your personality, which is going to sound really patronizing, but you just seem like a very, laid back is not a great word because it implies that you don't have standards and you definitely do.

This sort of flexibility that you have that's coming from you, this sense of belief that it's going to all be okay, this sort of trusting that the people around you are going to be all right, that they don't need a tidy home, they just need to eat and be clean. Um, I loved what you said about having low expectations.

I think that's a great way of describing it, but it's not really low expectations, is it? It's just, it's just deciding what's important and, and prioritizing what feels important and not worrying about the stuff that doesn't feel important, like the judgment of other people. Um, so what was the hardest moment in terms of, you know, having to balance everyone's needs?

I'm not asking you to disclose some deep personal information, but, um, Do you remember a phase where you felt, this is really tough, this is hard, I'm being really stretched here? 

[00:32:49] Metasha: I think as a parent of seven, the hardest time is that, uh, you're always putting your needs last. And recently, I've had a dental issue, which I should have seen to much earlier on and it got way worse than it needed to be only because I thought that I needed to be there for everybody else.

So for a long time, that was tough. What I was trying to do is, I felt that if I just, um, sort to their needs, then everything will be okay. But, uh, I think maybe maybe in a couple of years ago that I realized that that was the wrong way of thinking about it is that I needed to be healthy because I needed to be, to take care of me.

So I think that maybe before when we went back to South Africa and I was trying to be for my parents and trying to settle back into the country and it was just, I found it a bit hard and I felt that I lost me a little bit in that journey. And I was still trying to be the best mum, but there wasn't, there's no best mum.

I was just, you know, trying to be something that doesn't exist. And that's when I, when I made that effort is that I needed to start in the parent and baby wellness business. Um, realizing, cause I felt, cause when you become, cause my husband and I met at uni and obviously as the family grew. It was me who paused a little bit on a lot of, uh, we had the same idea starting off and um, it's a bit different because he had to now then be now financially responsible for, for us.

And where I had to step back and be physically able, so it was a little bit challenging there. But then again, I realized that things change at that moment. I had to be that for that moment. And now, that's when they need me. And now we're at a different stage. So, understanding that for myself, that nothing, things keep changing.

And you just need, like I say, go with the flow. You have to go with it. And had I, I wouldn't have been able to set up the Panda Baby Rivals business, say, six years ago, because I had more little people who needed my time in a different way. But now they're much older and the time is different. So I think it's easier said than done.

But once you get that, that it's just like when you're in the thick of it, it doesn't seem possible and it seems hard and it seems, but just to know that it's just. Then and now it's going to change and it's going to evolve and just to keep going and learning. I think that's what changed for me when I realized that I needed to.

to do me more. 

[00:35:30] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Interesting here you say, it was a couple of years ago when you realized you needed to do me more. That's, that's 18 years of not doing me. Um, which is a long time to not look after yourself. I mean, let's imagine, you know, year six, year seven, did you have any time to yourself? Did you have the thing that you always did?

I mean, yoga is obviously part of your, you know, experience. Did you do yoga for yourself in those years? I mean, if I said in a week, how much time would you have to yourself in a week? 

[00:36:00] Metasha: It's only now, this is like my fourth Friday that I've had no children, no, nothing that I have just time for myself. Like there's just, I haven't, even when I was doing my, um, conversion courses, I always had a baby in my arms when I was training for my, um, Baby massage, I did it with children on my arms, typing out, I've always had, uh, people asking how, so that's how I did it with every, every time there was somebody with, with me.

Okay. 

[00:36:31] Emma Pickett: Wow. Fourth, I am honoured that you are giving me your fourth Friday in 20 years, Matesha. I am honoured. Wow, you are, you are a bit of an inspiration. I mean, some people would say you're very silly and you're lucky and What you're lucky that you know, you didn't crack before now and obviously I'm sorry to hear about your dental experience But gosh, I mean, you know, you would really not looking after yourself for a very long time But that's true of so many women, isn't it?

That's kind of mothering in many cases Looking at your sort of breastfeeding experiences, have you ever had sort of breastfeeding problems? Have you ever had attachment problems or, or breast health problems? What have been some of the low moments? Uh, 

[00:37:10] Metasha: yeah, I think I had a few cases of mastitis, which was not very pleasant.

And I think that's, but apart from that, I think lucky is the word. I think not too many people can say that. I think the reason I had seven was because. I was fortunate enough to have had those positive experiences. I, I went in through each pregnancy and birth with the mindset that, you know, I'm going to do my best and trusting my body.

And I'm not sure where it came from. I didn't have many antenatal classes. It goes back, I think, when I talk to mummies now about, um, the impact of pregnancy. the first 1001 days and the experiences and environment a baby is in, uh, I know it, it kind of molds the type of person you become. I'm only thinking that because my mum breastfed me and I was fortunate enough to have that support of my gran and my both grandparents and Subconsciously, that gave me the confidence to, you know, raise this, um, my great great grand turned 100 in October.

You should give her that. Wow. And bless her. Happy birthday, 

[00:38:19] Emma Pickett: great grand. That's amazing. 

[00:38:21] Metasha: She had 11 children. She had 11. So, we have to give her. So, so she was, um, yeah, in her 100th. 11. And I contributed most to her great great grandchildren. 

[00:38:34] Emma Pickett: Yes, you've done a pretty good collection there. So wow, 100 years old, and she was then breastfeeding in the early 1900s.

I guess I'm thinking back to when that would have been happening. So You need to sit down and have a really good gossip with her about breastfeeding, because I'd love to know what it was like, you know, in the 1920s and 30s. She was 

[00:38:57] Metasha: quite young. I think she was 14 when she got married. So she had her very young.

And that was, again, the dumb thing. We just didn't have, we just trusted, I suppose. She just went with it, support from the other women in, around her. Which we don't have nowadays, sadly. Wow. Gosh. So 

[00:39:16] Emma Pickett: she is getting married. I'm trying to think. So she's born in 1924. Yes. So she was getting married 1938. And then we've got the second World War coming along.

And I'm guessing she was in a commonwealth country, so maybe her husband served and I mean, uh, yes. 

[00:39:38] Metasha: I, I don't, I don't think he did. I think, uh. Yeah. But she did have all that. She also had COVID. She survived. Oh my goodness. Oh, goodness for that. 

[00:39:49] Emma Pickett: Um, wow. I mean, what a life. What all the things, 

[00:39:53] Metasha: the 

[00:39:54] Emma Pickett: world that's changed and all the, I mean, the attitudes to parenting that have changed.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and we've almost gone, gone full circle again, haven't we? So for her, your breastfeeding experience and your parenting experience is the norm. That's what everybody did. Whereas that little blip in the middle of the 20th century, you know, people who had parents who had kids in the sort of 60s, 70s and 80s, you know, there was lots of push on.

You know, having smaller families and, and, and, you know, maybe not so much breastfeeding, but you've gone back to kind of great granny time in lots of ways. 

[00:40:24] Metasha: Unintentionally, just kind of, kind of happened. Yeah. 

[00:40:28] Emma Pickett: Wow. So I'm sorry to hear about your mastitis. Was that grouped together with one child or just scattered throughout?

Scattered 

[00:40:34] Metasha: throughout. I think that was the most challenging. I think when my eldest, when I had it for the first time and I was really poorly and I didn't know what was happening, it was really. And then as I begin to recognize the symptoms later on, I was able to catch it early and, you know, and get it, uh, But fortunately, I, um, they were, I think that golden hour, I, I somehow in South Africa were just encouraged as soon as they were born, they went up to feed and I think that made all the difference with their, their journey, their latching, luckily.

[00:41:05] Emma Pickett: And you've had, and obviously with home births, you've managed, you've had sort of low intervention births and, and that's presumably got you off to a good start as well. Um, so you haven't really needed breastfeeding support as such? 

[00:41:17] Metasha: No, I haven't. Yes, I haven't. No, I But I think it's so, so for my parent and baby biological, I think antenatal education to breastfeeding is the key.

I think that's where a lot of us are going wrong because we prep for a lot of things, the birthing process, but then, then it stops and then there's no, no support for what happens afterwards when you have this new person. And your body has a soul and everything changes. So I think we should have, and then to get out of the house, to get to somebody, it's something that's quite daunting.

I'm quite lucky where we are. We have a mum group where there is a retired midwife who offers free breastfeeding support too, which is quite, quite nice. And a lot of people are coming through that. But unless you know of it, you sometimes just at home and it's easy to not continue because formula is available and you want your baby fed and you are feeling all sorts yourself.

So yeah, I think that's quite an important, what you do is quite, quite amazing. And, um, it's something that I'd like to be part of, but it's just, um, timing. So, and there's a lot of, um, I think volunteering and lots going on to becoming able to support mummies. Uh, uh, but it's something I've been asked for. I think in Oxfordshire there's also, um, we're trying to encourage, uh, women, more black and brown women to come seek help, which is not always the case because I see it in my classes as well.

It's those groups don't often come out to classes or to mum groups. Which is sad because sometimes, um, like me, they probably, a lot of people are new to the country, English is not their first language. And you're just struggling on your own. So I think it's important, which I need to find a way of encouraging that it's okay to come out and, um, that they seek help and not struggle on your own.

So, hence I'm trying to do a lot of this and volunteering so that maybe the people feel more comfortable. Because I'm, I wasn't, I didn't grow up here. I am parenting without my parents, my family. It's, you know, it's, um, to make them feel more comfortable, but let's see, still work in progress where I am in.

[00:43:35] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Well, I'm really excited to hear about where you go next with that because what you're saying is super, super important and yeah, I mean, it's something that should be happening across the whole country, but, um, yeah, I'm really excited to hear how you get on with that. So in terms of family support, then it's obviously, um, you know, you're, we know without even asking that your mum has got no problem with you breastfeeding, you know, beyond two.

Have you ever had anybody giving you a difficult time? I'm just even from the sense of, you know, come on, Natasha, you're not looking after yourself. Has anyone ever said to you, this isn't realistic, you need to not be breastfeeding to this extent? 

[00:44:06] Metasha: Yes. Yeah, we've had bad meaning comments from family members.

My husband's family Did think it was a bit odd that I was breastfeeding for so long, but um, again, um, yeah, they have, yeah, but I just, I was always this, my body, my baby, my, my, Yeah. So I, um, I didn't take it to heart. I didn't let it bother me because I was quite, uh, had my mind set up from the onset that I will do what feels right.

[00:44:38] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I guess it's kind of handy if they live in a different continent. Yes. That makes life a little bit easier. Um. In terms of breastfeeding journeys coming to an end, so you've talked about the first two and it being quite sort of laid back and actually hearing you talk about everyone's journey, it sounds as though the endings weren't difficult.

Did anybody have a difficult ending? 

[00:44:59] Metasha: No. My, uh, third, um, uh, baby number three, she, just before her second birthday, I was, prepping for her brother's birthday party and she was insisting on feeding and I was like getting fed up and I said but you're a big girl now you need to stop and she was a very stubborn and she's that's it she stopped she didn't go and I went back after the party to offer her she was like no and It was just me in a moody moment saying, you know, you have to stop, I need to go prep the party packs.

And, um, she took it to heart and that was it, and she never went back. Wow, okay. How do you feel about that, looking back at that? Um, a little bit sad because I didn't mean for it to be that abrupt, but, uh, yeah, and she, we laugh about it now and she's quite proud that she breastfed for, well, her siblings went on for over two and she was the shortest one.

But, uh, Is she quite, is she 

[00:45:52] Emma Pickett: that, is that her personality generally, that very kind of strong willed, single minded? Yeah, she's 

[00:45:58] Metasha: very strong willed and, uh, 

[00:45:59] Emma Pickett: yeah. Interesting. So I would probably suggest that she was quite close to finishing anyway. I think so. And the fact that, and, and, but in that moment she wanted to kind of have agency.

She was probably a bit annoyed with you that you weren't gonna responding to her. So she was like, well, I'm, I'm not feeling powerful here. I'm feeling disempowered. But so I'm going to. darn well take the power that I can and, and see what, how she feels about that. It's fascinating. Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting.

[00:46:27] Metasha: But other than that, they all just naturally faded away. All naturally faded away. I think closer to between two. And that's why I say I'm coming to my end. I can feed with my two and a half year old. And she knows that she says only babies drink milk and she's a big girl and she'd go and fetch her milk from the fridge within her bottle.

But then there are times where she still needs to, so I can feel that, you know, we're coming to, to that end. So. It will gradually fall away someday soon, I feel, but, uh, She's got lots of 

[00:46:54] Emma Pickett: examples around her, hasn't she? That's another thing that's interesting. She knows that everybody else finished around the sort of two and a half mark, and so that very much feels like her normal.

It's interesting what you're talking about big girls. Anyone who listens to my podcast will know that I normally suggest we have to be quite careful around that conversation because if it's coming from us, Then it's, it's, we're sort of projecting onto them the idea that big girls or big boys don't have these needs and that can sometimes feel a bit scary.

Yeah, but it sounds as though that message is coming from them in your case rather than necessarily you saying you are a big girl You shouldn't be having milk anymore. 

[00:47:31] Metasha: I think with the younger ones There's always the need to be like the older ones, especially with my number seven. She potty trained very early on solid food She was it.

I think she likes big being seen as more able more capable of doing things just like her siblings. She likes to, she looks up to them, I suppose. That's where the term, uh, like to them, they're bigger, so she likes to be like them. 

[00:47:53] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that makes sense. And so you, you think you are in the last stages now, what's her feeding pattern like at the moment?

[00:48:00] Metasha: Uh, well, she's very, she, so when I had, on Tuesday I had my dental procedure, so I was feeling a bit, I needed time to, to rest, and I made a point at this time, yes, I will take time to rest, and she was very intimate, I think she could sense that I was not feeding, so she was wanting to feed more, but I think it just like a natural response.

I'm feeling that she was trying to, the release of the oxytocin in both of us helped to my healing process from a, if you think of it from a nature point of view. So for a point, she was being a bit more independent before the procedure, but this week, because I was feeling a little bit down, she was there, which I think I was thinking about, it's quite, um, If we think of us as mammals, as how that was just her way of having me heal, I think.

And, uh, I've been part of my, um, helping to support mummies and babies. I did a course on infant neuroscience. And it's so amazing that how brain chemistry and how these connections work and all this amazing things, like with my baby number three, and that connection was made that she wanted to stop feeding and that was it.

And that was her journey. I think, um, that we are nearing that stage of the youngest and then that would be it for me. 

[00:49:17] Emma Pickett: Yeah, how does that feel to think, so since 2004, you've either been growing people in your body or you've been growing people with the stuff coming out of your body. I mean, how does it feel to imagine that's the end of breastfeeding?

I mean, I'm, is this the end of babies? We're going to get baby number eight? I don't 

[00:49:34] Metasha: think so. I, I'm always, I think I am a baby person, but I think yeah. I think I've turned stage now where I think I've, so there won't be baby number eight and, and how do I feel? I don't know. Mixed emotions. I'm very blessed to have achieved that.

I feel very grateful to have been given that opportunity. Full well, I didn't set out to do it. My journey was completely different plan. But, um, and a lot of people say, Oh, you have seven children. How do you have time to do A, B, and C? And I'm like, I don't want you to see seven children as something that restricts me.

I want it, I want to be seen as something that enables me and makes me, that's what's journey life said to me. And I want to look at it as a strength rather than something that's going to hold me back. So hence, I want to see how far the parenting business takes me. I'd like to be there for other women, just because you're a mom doesn't mean you stop being, you don't have any hopes and dreams.

And that's where we need to change that, you can, we don't have to do it all, and we tend to want to be that super woman kind of thing, do it all, work and things. But if you understand that there will be stages in your life where at that point you needed to be that mommy, that breastfeeding mommy, and that's fine.

And then there'll be a stage where you can go back, like I've come back to pharmacy after seven years. And that feels right now for me, but, uh, I don't, you should always, shouldn't close any doors. You should just know that that's part of your journey. So that's me and, um, and people, yeah. So seven. 

[00:51:12] Emma Pickett: Yeah.

Fantastic. Yeah. I love your idea about, you know, large families. I'm guessing you're very tired of people going, Oh, you've got a handful. Oh my goodness. Me. You know, do you have a mini bus? How do you cope? But actually to say. This is a gift. This is an opportunity. This has enabled me. I have, you know, been given things from this experience, not things being taken away from me is a really, really helpful way and positive way to look at it.

So you're doing the baby massage and the baby yoga. You've talked about doing antenatal education. Is that something you're thinking about? 

[00:51:42] Metasha: Yeah. So I started off initially wanting to do breastfeeding support, but it was just, I think, again, it was during the lockdown phase and it was just a bit harder to get into.

I think I've spoken with my local place about volunteering and then building it up that way. Uh, and then I found baby massage and it was just funny because it was something that I did with my children, my grand did with me. It was just culture. I didn't think about it as a science point. And then when I looked into it, I was like, okay, this is quite, uh, and then making it into a business and supporting.

So that way I could work around the children and help bring in some money as well and not have to worry about childcare. So it kind of all again, just fell into place. So I've done, I call myself a parent and baby wellness practitioner because it's just baby massage, baby yoga. I've done a tummy time course, starting solids.

Um, so all together, my aim is to provide. support for, you know, in all parts of pregnancy and early parenting. So, 

[00:52:43] Emma Pickett: yeah. And the impact that that midwife had on you back in South Africa, that one conversation, that one woman who've, you're not even a glint in her eye these days. I'm sure she doesn't remember you're one of thousands and thousands, but there was, I mean, you know, it's not just her saying, Oh, by the way, you recommended to be breastfeeding until two.

There must've been something about her in terms of how she communicated that and how she connected with you. If you can make that difference to other people, um, in terms of their parenting journey, not specifically about breastfeeding, but any aspect, what a gift that will be. And I hope that someone listening to this has thought, wow, going with the flow.

I'm going to think about what that phrase means. And we toss it around as a phrase, don't we, without really thinking about it, but it's actually quite a deep thing, going with the flow. It's not a lazy thing. It's not a thing you do without thinking. It's actually something that takes thought and choice.

And you're an example of how. Beautifully, that can work. And, and I, I think from having talked to you that some of your positive breastfeeding outcomes and some of the, you know, the relationships between your children being so positive, must come from something in you in terms of your calm and your positive approach.

And I think that, you know, that must be. You must have a very special home because of that, not that you're allowed to, you know, obviously you're allowed to have bad days. You're allowed to be organizing a birthday party and say to someone, let me just do the birthday bags. Um, but it just, it sounds generally that you have got that very positive, calm approach, which, which is amazing and really special to hear about.

And yeah, I really look forward to hearing what happens next. Thank you so much for sharing your story today, Natasha. Is there anything, anything we haven't talked about that you wanted to make sure we mentioned? 

[00:54:22] Metasha: Now, I just wanted to share my journey because we often hear stories that are not, uh, the best.

And sometimes if we just focusing on that, and then you feel like, especially it's the same with birth stories, always hear the not so positive ones. And a lot of times there are some positive ones. And so it's nice to hear things that do go smoothly sometimes and celebrate that to feel that it's okay.

[00:54:45] Emma Pickett: So, so many of the episodes are about overcoming difficult, difficult challenges. Thank you. And that's been inspirational, but you're inspirational in a different way, which I think I'm really grateful for you sharing today, Natasha, thank you so much for your time. 

[00:54:57] Metasha: Yeah, very welcome.

[00:55:03] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett IBCLC and on Twitter at makesmilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.