Talking to children about breastfeeding, with Emma Rosen

For too many people, the first time they think about breastfeeding is when they are pregnant with their first child. If we are to change this, and normalise breastfeeding in our societies, we need to start with how we talk to children about breasts and babies. That’s why I’m delighted to be joined this week by Emma Rosen, a breastfeeding counsellor and secondary school teacher, to talk about what schools in the UK are doing now, and what we would like to see change in the curriculum.

Emma Rosen is @‌emmarosenbooks on Instagram.
You can find her books here https://www.emmarosenbooks.co.uk/

You can find my book for pre-teens and teens, The Breast Book, here: The Breast Book – Pinter & Martin

My latest book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

Resources mentioned - 

https://abm.me.uk/resources-for-schools/ (which also includes some guidance on approaching a school)

Lesson plans from the Breastfeeding Network: https://www.breastfeedingnetwork.org.uk/product/school-lesson-plans/

How to write to your MP - https://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/contact-an-mp-or-lord/contact-your-mp/

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a Lactation Consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time, because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the beginning.

Very beginning to the very end. And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end to join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk today.

I'm really excited. to be joined by a fellow breastfeeding nerd who is also a fellow teacher and an author and she's also called Emma. So, um, if there was a Venn diagram we'd have quite a lot of overlaps. Um, so Emma Rosen is an author of both adult and children's books. She's written fiction and non fiction and she's also a teacher and a breastfeeding counsellor.

So I think she's the perfect person to talk to about today's topic. And we're going to be talking about what children should know about breastfeeding and how we can make that happen. And also we'll be talking about what's currently happening in the UK schools. Thanks so much for joining me today, Emma.

[00:01:25] Emma Rosen: Thank you. It's an absolute privilege to be on this podcast. I love listening to you. Aw, thank 

[00:01:29] Emma Pickett: you. Okay, before we start talking about breastfeeding education for children, what I sometimes call antenatal, antenatal education, or maybe we should add a couple more antenatals in there, can we talk a little bit about your own breastfeeding experience?

So, if anyone wants to learn more about your own breastfeeding experience, you've written a beautiful book called Milk. a long time ago now. I'm just trying to think how long it's been on my shelves, many years, but it's still absolutely a book that can be relevant and fresh for a new reader. Tell us a little bit about that book and a little bit about your own breastfeeding experience.

[00:02:01] Emma Rosen: Yeah, I mean, that book came out, uh, I think six years ago now. So it's, it's, yeah, it's, it's been a while, but as you say, I mean, not an awful lot has changed really. And it's breastfeeding experience. The breastfeeding experience is always. relevant. I think even if they are from a long time ago, there's always things to learn and things to relate to.

But yeah, I have three children. I've got a 14 year old, an 11 year old, and a seven year old. And when I was pregnant with my eldest, I was really lucky that I had an antenatal whole day actually offered by a local midwife who ran the local breastfeeding group. And she did a day where we went through different facts and misconceptions about breastfeeding, and she went through the basics of how to latch a baby on, and um, it, I mean it was amazing.

And I can remember when I asked for the day off work for an antenatal, um, session to do with breastfeeding that my work were a bit like, Oh, that's unusual. And that of course you can have it off, but they, they sort of seem to react quite strangely to it, but I feel really fortunate that that was something that at the time was on offer in my area.

And I think that I just didn't question the, I'd looked at breastfeeding. I'd looked at formula feeding kind of gone. Yep. Breastfeeding. That's the one for me. Did a bit of reading about it, went to the course about it, and was like, good, got that, no problem. And, uh, when I had my son, it was a long labour, maybe something like 30 hours, and I, I think it would be categorized as normal and sort of nothing went wrong as such, but it was very long and at one point I ended up, uh, transferred by ambulance from one hospital to another because I, they wanted me to stop pushing because I had a small amount of cervix still there.

Okay. And, uh, I found that incredibly painful, couldn't stop, and so I was transferred because they wanted me to have an epidural so that I could get some control over the situation, essentially. And then as soon as I arrived at the other hospital, they had a look and went, Oh, you're fully dilated. You can, you can have him now.

So in essence, everything on paper would look fine, but I was quite traumatized by it. And then when he was born, It was one of those where they just grabbed my breast, put the baby on and went there you go, you're breastfeeding. Which, I mean, that's something that really shouldn't happen, there's so many issues around consent, let alone the fact that I wasn't involved in the process of latching my baby on, so I had absolutely no idea how to breastfeed a baby.

Because I hadn't actually really done it, a baby had just been put on me, and it had been this passive thing. So when we were transferred to the maternity ward, and I was just kind of left, then when I tried to breastfeed him, I just didn't have the faintest idea of how I was supposed to go about it, even with the information I'd been given.

And when I asked for help, people didn't really have the time for me. I think again because I was low risk, everything was fine, it was quite busy, and I think they just had other things to do, which I empathise with, but at the same time, that shouldn't be the situation for anybody. And I was offered, the original hospital that I'd gone into, uh, been in labour in, was a sort of more community hospital where you could actually stay, I think, for a week.

Ooh, 

[00:05:56] Emma Pickett: gosh, that's a bit of a, bit of a time travel experience, isn't it? Yeah, it was this really 

[00:06:00] Emma Rosen: unusual thing. Amazing, I know. And I, that's where I'd chosen to have the baby, but then I'd been transferred to the bigger hospital. And they did offer for me to go back. And in retrospect, it's one of those things where I think, oh, if I'd have gone back, I would have had the support.

But mentally, I wasn't in a position to face that. being transported again, and all of those things. So yeah, in the sort of bigger area hospital, I didn't have the support that I needed. And actually, if anything, was treated with sort of quite a lot of maybe contempt, but just sort of, we don't have time for this.

Why don't you know what you're doing? That that's certainly how it felt to me. Um, and I, I didn't find it very easy. I had issues with, with breastfeeding in hospital. I struggled to initiate things. I did get him to feed a little bit. And then when I went home, I think I was just, I didn't want to ask anybody for help because I'd been given this sort of, abrasive response when i had reached out for help and i'm not very good at asking for help i'm not that kind of person really it's been a big step for me to ask in the first place so i just decided i was going it alone and that i would just struggle on with all the hats i wear now I would guess that he had a slight tongue tie, was struggling to transfer milk effectively, so was feeding very frequently.

He had issues around weight gain. His weight was always a question. Um, and I found the frequent feeding really hard to handle. And so I would try to do things to space feeds out, for example, putting him in a baby carrier and going for a long walk because he'd sleep and I'd get a break. But what he needed was lots of frequent feeds and more support with positioning and attachment.

So if I had to guess, I think that's probably what was going on, but there was no way I was going to ask anyone, speak to anyone, I just completely shut down. And, um, The lovely midwife who had run the antenatal session, she also ran a local breastfeeding group, which is Deal Breastfeeding Support Group that I'm now the chair of.

Deal in Kent. 

[00:08:13] Emma Pickett: I know you're very, very active. We'll talk about that in a little bit in a minute. So, so she was kind of your guru at the very beginning. 

[00:08:19] Emma Rosen: She started the group and she was amazing. And, but I, didn't understand the concept of breastfeeding support group, even with the word support in the title, I thought it was like a club for people who were breastfeeding and because I wasn't very good at it, I thought if I went to the club that all of these people would just look at me and judge me and think that I didn't belong and I was so not okay in my head as well.

So the one group that I knew existed and should have gone to I didn't fully understand what was available at that group and what it was for, so I didn't go until we'd worked through a lot of our issues, because he'd got a bit bigger and I guess a bit more efficient at transferring milk and things had settled, uh, when he was maybe three or four months old.

So those first few months I think I was working through a lot of trauma from the birth and I found the treatment after my birth. But what also happened, I I didn't want to read a how to book. I'd read a few, sort of, how to breastfeeding type books. And I was browsing the internet and stumbled across this book called The Politics of Breastfeeding.

And I thought, that sounds interesting. That's an important book 

[00:09:33] Emma Pickett: for anybody in this world, for sure. 

[00:09:35] Emma Rosen: Absolutely. And I read that when he was quite small. It made a lot of sense of what I'd experienced. 

[00:09:42] Emma Pickett: You mean that sort of institutional undermining of breastfeeding? You mean just the system not supporting it and possibly even some onus reasons why that is the case?

But yeah, yeah. 

[00:09:52] Emma Rosen: Yeah, because I think even with sort of friends and family that there was, they were all very supportive and everything always came from the best possible place. But there was a lot of misconceptions. There was a lot of, are you feeding the baby again? Not having the tools to point me in the right direction.

So, I read that book and started to feel really cross that, as somebody who had kind of done the work, antenatally, and had, in theory, a birth that should have kind of led to breastfeeding, I mean, obviously, it's not that simple, but, you know, certain things maybe, being a bit more straightforward, that, uh, that hadn't happened and that I'd struggled with feeling very isolated and very unsupported.

And I started scribbling things down out of anger more than anything else. It was a cathartic exercise and carried on writing things as they were happening and things that I found out and how I felt about the situation. When I had my second baby, Uh, two and a half years later, I decided to have a home birth.

I, by that time, was going to the breastfeeding group regularly, felt much better, equipped, had already breastfed a baby for 18 months, I fed him for, or thereabouts. And, uh, just had a completely different experience. It was, I would say that his birth was the one that made me a mum and actually changed so many things.

That, that process of matrescence is incredible. Yeah. And hers was the one that healed me afterwards. And, um, So, you know, both are special. It's like, although that first one had lots of negatives around it, it's still without that experience. I wouldn't have gone on to do the things that I've done and to be passionate about the things that I have, and so I don't, and it's all processed.

That, writing that book helped me to process all of the things that happened and understand how to sort of turn those around, and I don't hold any blame for that. As you say, I think it's an institutional, it's not something that was kind of done to me. It was a thing that happened, you know. But I felt, when I finished that book, which was before my third baby was born, I felt it was important because I felt that sharing what it is like from different angles, so what my first experience was like, what my second experience was like, and then in that book, although it's, excuse me, although it's autobiographical, every other chapter is something I learned.

So I looked at history and politics and biology and how in this society we have this, situation that I then experienced and tried to navigate breastfeeding in terms of not really finding it easy to find support through hospitals and healthcare and also through my own networks and the amount of misinformation and misconceptions and why it is how it is.

It is. So I felt that that book would be really helpful for potentially even people working within healthcare to understand what it's 

[00:13:05] Emma Pickett: like. I think that's one of its greatest strengths, actually. So you know, it's very easy for people in the healthcare system to sort of lose connection with what it's like to be a mum giving birth and going through those experiences.

And you, and that book is, I think, a really powerful way for someone to just regain that, that connection and, and realise what the context of what it's like when you're a new mum. So it's, I think it's, it's for new parents, it's for new mums, but it's also definitely for professionals in that space as well.

[00:13:31] Emma Rosen: I do often say if, if I'm selling at an in person event and somebody pregnant buys it, I do kind of say, by the way, my first experience was not the best, but it gets better. So, because I'm aware some people might not be in the place always to read things like that as well and read the negative side of things.

And if you read the whole book, then it really comes together. But Yeah, I think for a new parent that's been through it, that's different. But when you're anticipating it, 

[00:13:57] Emma Pickett: I 

[00:13:57] Emma Rosen: don't know. I think it's just good to give a little Yeah, it's a difficult decision, 

[00:14:00] Emma Pickett: isn't it? One of the things that I'm sure you hear this from the parents you support as well, so many people say, I wish someone had told me how hard it was going to be.

I think there's a different school of thought around what you should be saying to people antenatally. Some people are very much of the view that you shouldn't be giving the negative stories and, you know, in the same way, giving a negative birth story is not helpful. Let's not talk about the negative breastfeeding stories.

But other people actually are saying, no, I'm, I want that. I want to know what the challenges could be. And that, that is helpful to me. So I think it's just important to have a sort of diversity of options out there. And your book is definitely part of that for sure. 

[00:14:33] Emma Rosen: Yeah, I think it's just making sure that people are in the headspace sometimes to hear it.

I completely agree with you. I think there's a rosy picture of birth and motherhood and breastfeeding. The truth isn't necessarily always that. There are, of course, moments where it's special and beautiful and amazing, but there are also moments where it's really hard. And some people can experience really, really difficult things.

And if we constantly, whether through the media or actually in antenatal education sometimes, paint this picture of it just being So, sort of, almost, we follow these steps, it's nice and simple, and it's beautiful, and it's amazing. I just think we do a disservice by not saying sometimes it doesn't go like that.

And if it doesn't go like that, here's where you can go to get some support, and, you know, make sure you've got your people, and all of those things, because it does happen. 

[00:15:29] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah. And I think there's some people who genuinely believe that if you present anything negative antinatally, People won't initiate breastfeeding.

Like people think that that decision to breastfeed is so fragile that if we just say one negative thing about, you know, cluster feeding or nipple pain or whatever, we're going to put people off. And I think it, gosh, it's got to be a more profound decision than that. If people really can be put off by what you say in an antenatal class, you know, we've got some problems around how we're talking about breastfeeding.

[00:15:56] Emma Rosen: Yeah. 

[00:15:57] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I'm, I'm the, the angriest people I meet are the people who. don't manage to meet their breastfeeding goals and feel betrayed by their antenatal education and, and feel, you know, let down that they weren't given more information about what might possibly happen. So we've definitely got a winner.

We know we're not getting it right in the UK. We can see that from our breastfeeding rates. So there's got to be something that we change. And I think maybe thinking about our antenatal education is part of that and, and going on to talk about what we're going to talk about today. I think starting antenatal education before the antenatal education is also a very important part of that, because that's how you, you shift an entire culture.

Before we do talk about that, just tell me a little bit about your breastfeeding counselling journey. So you trained as a breastfeeding counsellor and I know you're still really active aren't you? I hear you talking about that a lot. What's your sort of week to week experience like as a breastfeeding counsellor?

What are you doing at the moment? 

[00:16:43] Emma Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I trained as a peer supporter through the ABM when my second child was born. A few months afterwards, I asked the lady who was running the breastfeeding support group at the time and just said, I'm really passionate about this and doing lots of writing and reading about it as well.

I'd love to get involved. And she gave me the link to the ABM basically. And so I was a peer supporter for a long time. And then I decided to do the breastfeeding counsellor training. when COVID started. Because although we were doing breastfeeding support via Zoom, it wasn't, it wasn't filling my cup, you know?

I was, it was really hard energetically actually. We changed, we made the length of our sessions shorter because we all found it really difficult. And it, I just missed really having breastfeeding support as such a big part of my life and I wanted to do something. So I did the breastfeeding counsellor training, I think I finished sort of after.

The biggest bit of COVID. So currently at Deel Breastfeeding Support Group, we have, uh, myself and Thea are the breastfeeding counsellors. Well, she's a lactation consultant, Thea Anderson. She's lovely. And we, so the way we operate is that people book appointments for our group, um, with Thea or I, and then if they want to, they can also drop in.

And just chat with the peer supporters we have there or be at fear and I, if we are available. And it's funny because it was always a drop in the group's been running for nearly 20 years or something in that, in that region and was always a drop in, but after COVID our numbers started to dip and we tried lots of different things to tackle it.

And we had this idea of let's make appointments because then people have You know, they know they're expected, they know it's a certain time, and so forth. And our numbers have exploded through the roof. We are so busy. And it's, it's no different to the way we're operating. You see the same people, it's just that you have that guaranteed.

And I wonder if people just feel that because they're, they're expected, and also maybe they don't think, Oh, I won't go, the baby's having a nap or I won't, you know, they, well, I've got an appointment and so they come, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah. 

[00:19:12] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, interesting. So the groups I operate also have appointment systems as well.

Um, just again, that's just happened out of COVID and keeping numbers down. And actually, I'm thinking back to what the pre appointment group looked like, and it's actually quite overwhelming, I think, if you're a new parent, especially if you've got any social anxiety, to sort of know what you're going to get.

How long are you going to see someone for? Will you be able to see someone? Do you have to kind of worm your way in, like you're trying to order a drink at a bar? You know, how does it actually work in terms of getting access to somebody? And maybe that appointment system gives someone a certainty. 

[00:19:46] Emma Rosen: Yeah.

And 

[00:19:46] Emma Pickett: they just know what they're going to expect. And I think, you know, what you're talking about, that combination of peer support being there as well, I think is really valuable because Groups can both be clinic y type problem solving situations and also that, that social context as well. It sounds like you've got that really good, that really good balance.

[00:20:01] Emma Rosen: Yeah, I'm really proud of what we do. 

[00:20:03] Emma Pickett: Yeah, good, good. Yeah, I hear a lot about DL Breastfeeding Group. So I know that you're, you're really active and do a lot of valuable work. Um, let's talk about your other book that has milk in the title. So you wrote Milk, which is aimed at grown ups. And then you wrote a book, which is super cute, called Milk and Cookies.

Tell us about Milk and Cookies. 

[00:20:22] Emma Rosen: So I, once I brought one book out, I thought, well, I'd gone to all this effort to produce one that I wanted to do more. So I, uh, I did write a book about the sea in between because my, my degree is in marine biology. I come from a, uh, marine background. But I still wanted to do something else to do with breastfeeding and I had in the back of my mind that I felt that we don't have these conversations, as you say it's that antenatal, antenatal, antenatal, we should be having these conversations all through our lives and gathering stories and experiences and so that then when we become parents we've already got all of this really having a an antenatal session when you're pregnant.

in some ways is too late. Oh, for sure. 

[00:21:11] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:21:11] Emma Rosen: So I wanted to produce something that would help with that, and I think sometimes people can struggle with those conversations to know what to say, to know how to initiate it. So I thought if I wrote a book about breastfeeding that explains what breastfeeding is, and I went through a scientific, let's look at lots of different animals and how they feed their babies kind of angle, that You can just read it as a story.

As with any book, you can read any picture book that way. Like, if you were reading, I don't know, Harry Maclary from Donaldson's Dairy. Some days you just read the story, and other days you're talking about, Oh, do you remember we had a dog like that? Oh, do you remember Next Door's? So it can be just the story, or it can be the conversation, if you want it to be.

And then you can talk about your own breastfeeding stories, or the Little one can ask questions. And I purposefully made it so that it's So a little girl called Tilly goes around to her aunt and uncle's house and they've just had a baby. And her aunt is feeding the baby and she sort of says, Oh! What's going on here?

And the aunt tells her all sorts of facts about how different animals feed their babies and then Tilly is like Fantastic. Now, now I know great. I Thought that by making it a cousin It means that for a family who aren't having a new baby, but still want those conversations with their child that the book still works and For people who potentially don't want to talk about their own breastfeeding Stories, maybe they didn't have the best time, but they still want to talk about it with their child.

It just took a step away for me that enabled families to talk about other people's breastfeeding if they wanted to do it that way. Cause I think often we talk about breastfeeding in the context of, Oh, you're having a new baby brother or sister. So. For me, that was a way of handling it. 

[00:23:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah, very cleverly done.

And you're absolutely right. It should not just be, just in the same way, it shouldn't be waiting until we're actually pregnant to have an antenatal conversation. We shouldn't wait until there's a new baby in the family before we talk about breastfeeding. Breastfeeding is, you know, kids, kids love sciencey stuff.

They love to learn about the world. They want to know about dinosaurs. They want to know, you know, all the stuff about plants and the world around them. But we shy away from talking about breastfeeding, which is the one, one area that they probably would find super fascinating, even if. They don't have a baby in their lives.

As you know, I also wrote a book about breastfeeding for younger people, my book called The Breast Book, which is aimed at 9 to 14 year olds, and I know you read it because you very kindly reviewed it. So it's a, it's a puberty book, but breastfeeding education is a big part of that because I think, you know, as you both agree, it's too late to learn about breastfeeding when you're actually pregnant.

It needs to be something that we talk about from a very, very young age and, and there are some parts of the world who've got that right and it does happen in schools. But we can't rely on schools necessarily to provide those answers. So I'm going to challenge you to a little bit of a game here. Okay.

Let's imagine that we have to make a little list of things that we want children to know about breastfeeding. So I'm going to suggest we take it in turns to say one fact each until we run out of steam. Well, I've said this, we've probably gone for three hours. So let's not go, not go until we run out of steam.

But what facts would you like a child to know? So let's imagine we're talking, I know, a 10 year old. Okay. What would you want them to know about breastfeeding? So do you want me to go first or do you want to go first? 

[00:24:34] Emma Rosen: You can go first. Go on. 

[00:24:35] Emma Pickett: Okay. So I would say that we want them to know that human milk is not just about food, that it contains special ingredients that fight germs and fight diseases.

And colostrum, that first milk that a baby has is even more about, you know, keeping a baby healthy and fighting germs than it is about food. So breast milk is not just about food. 

[00:24:57] Emma Rosen: So related to that, I would then say that breast milk isn't always the same. That it can change feed to feed. Uh, from night to day, different children, each, each feed is tailored for that baby at that time.

[00:25:11] Emma Pickett: Oh, good. Okay. I would also say that breastfeeding is also about comfort. It's not just about food. It's designed to help babies to fall asleep and to help them feel safe and happy. 

[00:25:22] Emma Rosen: I would say that breast milk comes out of more than one hole. That was a shock to me. I think it is for lots of people. 

[00:25:30] Emma Pickett: Yeah.

Lots of people think there's one little central hole. And when they see that shower head, um, you know, I've seen people have either, you know, three or even five little holes with milk spraying out. It can be a bit of a shock. Yeah. That's the sort of science y fact that kids would like to know about.

That's kind of the stuff that they could find interesting. I would add that babies breastfeed a lot. Um, and that's really okay. They don't just have three meals and a couple of snacks like an older person might have. They might have ten meals or even more meals and that's completely normal. 

[00:25:58] Emma Rosen: I would add that breasts aren't just, don't have like a reservoir, a bag of milk in them that gets emptied, that milk is made as the baby feeds.

[00:26:08] Emma Pickett: Oh, that's a good one. I would say that breastfeeding is not just for babies. Just like some older people drink cow's milk. older kids can carry on drinking human milk as well and that's completely normal. 

[00:26:19] Emma Rosen: Okay, I think that it's good to know that the amount of milk that you make or store is not related to the size of your breasts.

[00:26:30] Emma Pickett: Good one. I would say something about how breasts grow. So especially if we're talking to a 10 year old, because breast development can start, you know, even a couple of years before that. Making sure people understand what a breast bud is. So I spoke to someone when I was researching the breast book who had spent several months thinking she had breast cancer.

Because the only context she'd ever seen someone talk about lumps in the breast was about breast checks and breast cancer. So when her breast buds developed, she was absolutely terrified. Um, so we, we need little people to know how breasts grow. And it's really normal to have that mound where the areola is very prominent before it then sort of retracts back into sort of the wider breast.

And it's really normal for there to be asymmetry. Lots of people are very frightened when their breasts start to develop asymmetrically. So a bit about breast development. 

[00:27:16] Emma Rosen: Well, and this is, sorry to change the subject in the middle of our facts, but that's why the breast book is so important. My 11 year old has read it, combed through it and really sort of asked lots of questions and it means that she will know those things.

So it's, yeah, that's the power of books. I think they're really important. I 

[00:27:33] Emma Pickett: agree. And I think knowing that stuff about how breasts grow changes your relationship with your breasts, which then makes breastfeeding more likely to be successful. So if we don't trust our breasts or feel comfortable about them, how can we expect breastfeeding to work?

[00:27:45] Emma Rosen: Yeah, absolutely. Um, okay, so going back to facts, uh, the fact that your breasts can be different temperatures depending on, like, reacting to the baby at your breast so that it can help to keep your baby warm or cool, that's one of those facts about breastfeeding that I think can't possibly be ignored. Do you know what I mean?

When you hear things and you think, you've made that up. It's just too clever. 

[00:28:11] Emma Pickett: Yeah. No, I guess it's probably true about quite a lot of things to do with breastfeeding. Uh, like the one about, you know, alpha lactate albumin eating cancer cells. That's the sounds kind of science fiction y made up as well. Um, I'd also add, I think connected to what you said before, that breasts are very different, that they're all different.

They don't all look the same. If you pick up a picture book that talks about body development or you look at the fact sheet that you get photocopied for year six. Breasts are always the same shape. They've always got that round shape, same size areola. And actually it's really normal for breasts to be droopy or hanging or pointing off in different directions or asymmetrical.

It's difficult to give children exposure to that message because they're not often seeing pictures of naked bodies, but they need to know how breasts can be really different, and that's okay. And breast, breastfeeding can absolutely work in that context too. 

[00:28:58] Emma Rosen: Okay, I think I'm going to go for another science fiction one.

This is probably my, my biggest one, where to me, I'm just like, this is wild. The, when a baby is feeding, the saliva is, It's sort of sampled by the mother's body, and then that creates this response to tailor the milk and produce antibodies and all of those things. Again, I just have such a sense of wow at that, and I think kids would love that kind of, you know, that, I just think those really.

amazing factor are really cool for kids. 

[00:29:31] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Okay. And adults. Okay. I can definitely sense we can do this for hours. So I'm going to find you my last one. I would talk, I mean, not every 10 year old would get this, but I would like to talk about oligosaccharides and talk about how scientists have found that there are sugars in breast milk that aren't for the babies that are designed to go into the gut to feed the friendly bacterias and talk a little bit about the microbiome and how our gut's meant to work and how breast milk helps our gut to be the healthiest it can possibly be.

Just the idea that there are sugars that aren't for humans is kind of, whoa, I mean, the evolution developed something just to feed the bacteria. That's, that's pretty amazing. Do you want to one final fact before I force us to move on? 

[00:30:14] Emma Rosen: How about breastfeeding shouldn't hurt? Because I think that some younger people might have worries and might have potentially even heard stories and that sort of reassurance about even to an extent what breastfeeding feels like, maybe, sort of information about Yeah, that it shouldn't hurt, that it is comfortable, maybe unusual at first.

Um, so that if they do struggle with pain and so forth, they know to ask. And because I think there is that misconception out there as well of, oh, you've got to toughen your nipples up and all this. And I, I mean, again, in my first experience, I ended up in a, in a right state. So I think that knowing that that's not normal is good.

And 

[00:31:07] Emma Pickett: I guess connected to that, knowing who, who else is out there to help you if you are struggling. For sure. And it might seem weird to talk, you know, to preteens about the world of a lactation consultant, but why not? Why can't they know that groups like yours exist and, and there's support people out there, a little advert, just to say that you can buy my four books online.

You've got it in you. A Positive Guide to Breastfeeding is 99 p as an ebook, and that's aimed at expectant and new parents. The breast book published by Pinterest Martin is a guide for nine to 14 year olds. And it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding for a 10 percent discount on the last two go to Jessica Kingsley press that's UK dot J K P dot com and use the code M M P E 10 makes breastmilk.

Picket Emma, 10. Thanks. So, one of the things that I know we both agree with, that this, these conversations are not just about girls or people that might give birth and, and, and feed their own babies. It's also important that the people that won't be feeding their babies are involved too. What, why do you think that's important that boys are part of these conversations?

[00:32:25] Emma Rosen: I mean, I suppose the first thing that jumps to mind is that boys will potentially go on to be partners of breastfeeding. people and so them being equipped with knowledge is helpful because, you know, we're not living in the traditional human societies where we've got lots and lots of family members and friends and all of that around us living in close proximity to us and the extended family and what have you.

Most of us are going home with a partner and that is our support network a lot of the time and You know, I know that my husband, from the best of intentions, was saying, I, have you thought about stopping, or maybe we could give him a bottle because he sees me struggling and couldn't understand, sort of, how to support me, or what could be going on.

So I think having that knowledge for partners is good, but it's not just that, it's a future dads and brothers and friends and uncles and that community thing again. I have a lot of friends who are male. And actually, one of my friends was very helpful in my breastfeeding experience, because he already had young children, somebody I work with.

We just had conversations about him and his young kids. He would talk about stuff that was going on. He was the person who told me that co sleeping was a thing. I would have thought that it was wrong, uh, to do that and probably would have not tried it, and it was my sanity for me. Safe, co sleeping, kept me through those nights.

And having had somebody who had talked to me about his and his wife's experience with their young children was a helpful bit of experience for me. So we, you know, even sort of male friends, work colleagues, all of that, just having those people who are well informed, won't make comments, won't continue with misconceptions.

It is just that wider community. It's not just our partners. 

[00:34:31] Emma Pickett: Yeah, for sure. And also, Blokes are the policy makers, they're the budget writers, they're the local councillors who decide whether to fund the group, they're, you know, they're the politicians in Westminster that make decisions about what's going to happen in terms of national policy.

I'm sure both of us have been to sort of conferences, major conferences, where there are hundreds and hundreds of women in the room and you know, one or two blokes, even though we're talking about something that involves every single person who's born in the country. Um, yeah, we need the whole society to understand why breastfeeding is important, for sure.

Let's talk a bit about what's happening in schools. So, I know the two of us have sort of, we've done a bit of research and I think it would be useful for people who don't understand what's happening in the UK. what is going on. So UK is obviously not just one country. We've got Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland and England.

Um, let's start with the story in Scotland. So let's tell people, what does the Scottish curriculum say about breastfeeding? Does it say anything about breastfeeding? 

[00:35:31] Emma Rosen: It does. It does actually. And, and funnily enough, I wrote an article fairly recently for a blog called Boobing It, has a lovely podcast as well.

And I wrote that it wasn't included because I, in the back of my mind, I knew it was in Scotland, but when I looked it up, I couldn't find it at that time. So I might actually see if I can amend that article because, um, I did get a couple of people commenting and going, actually it is in Scotland. So, yeah, in Scotland it's in, like, nutrition in their first level.

So, first level, from what I understand, is sort of key stage one. So, little around five to seven years, I believe. 

[00:36:11] Emma Pickett: Yep. 

[00:36:12] Emma Rosen: And it's, uh, an example of sort of feeding at a stage of life. 

[00:36:19] Emma Pickett: So the Scottish curriculum is what we call curriculum for excellence. And they have, as you say, breastfeeding specifically mentioned, and other local areas have gone even further with that.

So some local areas have got more advanced curriculums, the breastfeeding network has done some work in some local areas. Um, you know, we've got much more detail going on in certain places. Scottish government has more commitment to breastfeeding advocacy than in England generally. So there's specific funding that goes into the concept of advocacy and I think that's been reflected in the curriculum.

I don't think every Scottish child is having a massive amount of detail, but I know that some certainly are. There's a lovely little video produced that I shared, I've shared on my Instagram page with little, animated fruits. And I think it's North Lanarkshire who've produced this little video where um, children are kind of reflecting on their breastfeeding education that they've had and they've, you know, they've really got it in terms of, you know, what, what parents need.

It's amazing. So, so the news is quite positive in Scotland. What about England? When might a child encounter the topic of breastfeeding if they're going to school in England, or even breasts? So let's, obviously we've got lots of different age groups. Let's break this down. Let's start with primary schools and let's start with science classes.

What would someone come across in a biology lesson if they're in a primary school? 

[00:37:37] Emma Rosen: Um, in terms of the curriculum, nothing. It's not specifically mentioned. I mean, it's one of those where you could. bring it in to a topic because there are topics on puberty and there are topics about nutrition and there you could include it as an individual if you were passionate about it but as far as I can see There is no specific reference to breastfeeding.

It talks 

[00:38:06] Emma Pickett: about sort of babies growing, but there's no reference specifically to breastfeeding. And I think you've got to be a pretty brave teacher to sort of, I know there are some teachers out there who do do this, but I think if it's not specifically mentioned to bring that in is difficult because, you know, as a society, we've got so many people that don't meet their breastfeeding goals.

We know. We know. You know, 80 percent of people have regrets about how long they were able to breastfeed for. So you're talking to the, the children of people with trauma and, and actually knowing how to have that conversation and not upset parents is something that I know teachers are really sensitive about.

And it's, that's what I think parents need support in it to be able to then talk about breastfeeding in schools. 

[00:38:49] Emma Rosen: That's it, yeah. It's, it's the, the worry about the stakeholders, the, as you say, the parents who might be uncomfortable, and then that probably means that you've got to send a letter home to say we're going to be talking about this.

And it's also, the teachers themselves, potentially having their own histories and how they feel. You know, I mean, for my master's degree, I did my dissertation on that and I looked at, I designed a lesson plan, got my department at the school that I was working at to deliver a lesson and then spoke to children and teachers and sort of looked at that because I think that if it's included, there is going to need to be training and information and conversations to help the people who are delivering those lessons.

Yeah. Because potentially you could have people talking about things in a way that's less than ideal. Yeah. Or you could have parents who are very worried, so it's about making sure that everything is done in exactly the same way as we talk about other sensitive topics to kind of make sure that people know how to talk about it and it's done sensitively.

[00:39:54] Emma Pickett: Yeah, I mean, I'm sure as you know, there's so much pressure on teachers to cover so much stuff and to be experts and everything. And that's not possible. So I think one of the things that does work well is for, you know, a peer supporter to be part of that conversation or a new, a new parent to be part of that conversation.

Um, and they can sort of be the facilitator for the session rather than the teacher necessarily for you. They've got to be the expert. And that's something that we talk about in the, in the ABM materials for schools I'll talk about a bit later. Um, okay, let's jump ahead a little bit. Let's talk about key stage three.

So in England, that's 11 to 14 year olds. I was looking at the biology content and noticed it specifically said that pupils should learn about the effect of maternal lifestyle. on the fetus through the placenta. So that was specifically referenced, but there was nothing on breastfeeding. 

[00:40:44] Emma Rosen: What is going on there?

What's that all about? I know. I mean, the thing for me is that really we need to talk about what's normal first. And then we can go on to how that system, so within sort of pregnancy and labour and breastfeeding, all the different bits, now that we understand how it works, then how could that be impacted by different factors?

To me that seems like a logical way to do it. By talking about that sort of maternal lifestyle thing, we already start that culture, I think, of saying that mothers should be so selfless, and that when you become pregnant, you know, everything that you do, you're suddenly, you've got to eat all the vegetables, and you've got to exercise, not too hard, but a little bit, and not drink, not smoke, not, of course, many things in there are important, and that it's really not a good idea to drink lots of alcohol while you're pregnant, and that yes, it is important to have that message as a public health message in schools.

But I think that by introducing that before you've fully covered normal. It feeds into that concept that lots of us struggle with when we get pregnant, where you just think, oh, I'm supposed to be eating an amazing healthy diet, but actually I really just want to go and have a takeaway. And then the guilt.

And then that goes on until when you're breastfeeding and you still feel that you should be living this very Sort of perfect selfless light because now you are 

[00:42:21] Emma Pickett: mother, 

[00:42:21] Emma Rosen: you know, 

[00:42:22] Emma Pickett: yeah, yeah And it's about the individual responsibility, isn't it? I mean that phrase, you know, the effect of maternal lifestyle It's not the responsibility of society and supporting the you know, pregnant person.

It's about that Individual person having to do everything right and that and that feeds into the breastfeeding world, you know Whether if you don't meet your breastfeeding goals that was down to you as an individual That's that's the myth and you know, that's something that the you know, UNICEF baby friendly baby call to action was trying to address.

You know, it is not the responsibility of the individual mother. I think that's even in the Lancet series. It's about society's responsibility, not an individual mother's responsibility. Yeah. And yeah, that language is there from the beginning, isn't it? That it's about the individual mother and her life of perfection and that pregnant person doing everything right.

Um, so when children get older, I was sort of hoping when we looked at GCSE biology, so that's from the ages of 14 to 16, we'd start to see more conversations about lactation. We've got ovulation and menstruation getting a look in. Can you see anything about lactation in the GCSE materials? 

[00:43:23] Emma Rosen: No, and I mean, this is where, you know, I'm a biology.

Uh, secondary teacher, that's what I've done for my teaching career and it's, it's not, it's not specifically mentioned. I have come across it in resources in immunity every now and again that it's mentioned, um, and when they look at passive and active immunity and natural versus, um, Not unnatural, I can't think of the word I'm looking for.

Artificial immunity. So they look at vaccination, they look at the placenta. So that children understand that immunity comes from sort of different sources and it works in different ways. I've seen it there, but it's not in the curriculum. I had a look through the GCSE textbook that I have at home and it's not in there.

I can't find it anywhere. I can't find it in immunity. I can't find it in reproduction. I can't find it in contraception. I can't see any reference in that textbook to immunity. Breastfeeding, lactation, at all. I mean the thing is, obviously the question about what should be taught in schools is enormous and there's stuff around politics, you know, we ask a question about are we, are we teaching children things because it prepares them for their life as an adult?

Are we teaching them things because they are viewed as culturally important? Are we, you know, there's lots of reasons why things are in the curriculum and like with the, we were talking about the maternal lifestyle thing, I'm sure that's been put in because of a, public health, we need to ensure that people understand this.

And there's lots of that kind of thing in biology of ensuring that people understand how to be healthy. But I don't understand how breastfeeding isn't there in any of those conversations. 

[00:45:15] Emma Pickett: That's the thing, isn't it? It's inconceivable. I know we are biased, obviously, because of where we're coming from.

But, I mean, my daughter just did GCSE biology last summer. And I helped her revise and went through all the revision materials. The amount of freaking time developed to fish farming. Fish farming, I can tell you a lot about fish farming, um, and nothing about bloody lactation. And that must be some fish farming advocacy group.

I mean, I can only imagine this is what's happened. Literally having lunch with somebody who then had lunch with somebody else and then went into a meeting and, and got fish. I mean, there was a massive chunk on fish farming about keeping fish healthy and, you know, all these sorts of things. I mean, at some level, curriculums are shifted by advocacy, and I suspect that the breastfeeding advocacy world is not necessarily in the right rooms, um, and we need to do better at getting in the right rooms.

And things are, are going backwards. I mean, tell us what happened with the, the human biology A level. 

[00:46:12] Emma Rosen: Yeah, so, uh, breastfeeding, lactation weren't in A level at all, but the one place it was, I used to teach this lovely A level course called human biology. The thing with human biology was it tended to attract students who, maybe they wanted to be physiotherapists, maybe nurses, um, maybe they wanted to work in, sort of, sports.

Those kinds of people who do not need to know about fish farming, it's not going to be relevant, uh, they don't need to know about photosynthesis, not important for them. So, they only need to know how humans work, and this A Level catered to it. It was a really lovely A Level, it had some really interesting stuff around human evolution that I quite liked as well.

But, it had this one section on hormones, and so it looked at the hormones through, uh, labour, and then it looked at lactation, from a hormonal perspective. And, um, That was, I mean, it would usually be about half a lesson, of course, me being me, I would. I mean, I'm going to be honest, if I can get breastfeeding in, even as a mention.

So if we're talking about immunity, I'm going to mention that antibodies are passed through the milk to a baby, but that's an individual basis. But yeah, this was specifically on the curriculum. They had to know how hormones worked in, in lactation. So um, Yeah, but what happened with that was the reshuffling of the curriculum when, uh, Michael Gove was education secretary a number of years back that resulted in this thing now where at GCSE we don't have grades, we have numbers, it was when that happened, there was a big change in lots of things in education, and one of the things was they didn't want overlapping courses.

For some reason, I don't personally see what the issue is in having courses that overlap in content because they're serving different purposes, but human biology was axed because they felt that it overlapped with biology. And I think it's a shame because I think that students who, as I say, didn't need to know all of the rest of biology, weren't going to be massively interested in the rest of it, are now going to either not take that subject, or they're going to sit through lesson after lesson of stuff they don't need to know and have to learn it and not be interested and probably not perform as well, which will then affect their future goals.

But yeah, that was the one place where it was, but that's now gone, unfortunately. 

[00:48:41] Emma Pickett: So we might think, okay, maybe the answer is going to be in relationships and sex education. So in England, the education, sex, sex education curriculum was up for review a few years ago. That subject's called different things.

Sometimes it's called PCSA, PSHE, sometimes it's called RSE, but essentially we're learning about relationships and bodies and, and, you know, how we're going to be an adult in a relationships world. And that new curriculum was produced in 2021. It's a big document, 50 pages long. And, you know, with the joys of the internet, you can search the document for keywords.

I noticed that the word menstruation is six times in that document. And it also says around that the onset of menstruation can be confusing or even alarming for girls if they're not prepared. And as I've touched on, we know that that's also true for breast development. Guess how many references there are to breasts in this document?

We've got 50 pages. It's all about body development and puberty and growth and becoming an adult. How many references to breasts do we get, do you think? 

[00:49:44] Emma Rosen: Is it going to be zero? You're going to tell me it's zero. Yes, it is. 

[00:49:48] Emma Pickett: And then you go to the appendix of the, of this curriculum and it says, okay, you know, we can't include everything in these 50 pages.

So we recommend that you go and have a look at the PSHE Association. So the PSHE Association. It has a mega website, loads of materials and lesson plans. So you go there, you do a bit of a deep dive, and by the way, it's not free to access the PSHE Association resources. It costs about 70 a year for an individual to be a member.

And the health education curriculum also says it will cover all aspects of healthy food choices. So we're not just talking about body development and puberty and growing and changing. We're talking about healthy eating as well. So the health education for Key Stages 1 and 2 from the PSHE Association, references to breastfeeding zero in the Key Stages 1 and 2.

You had a look at Key Stages 3 and 4, any references to breastfeeding there? 

[00:50:43] Emma Rosen: No, 

[00:50:44] Emma Pickett: there was 

[00:50:44] Emma Rosen: even stuff about parenting in there and it's still nothing about breastfeeding. They looked at sex, they looked at parenting, there's stuff about healthy lifestyles and wellbeing, but absolutely nothing about breastfeeding.

[00:50:59] Emma Pickett: It is mind boggling. Okay, so then you go and have a look at some of the other resource packs around relationships and sex education. We've got a resource pack called changing and growing up key stages one and two lesson packs. Now, I used to be a year six teacher and teach relationships and sex education in year six and then back in the day.

all the puberty stuff was crammed into year six. So people would do the SATs in May and then after May you go on a little trip, do a play and learn about sex and bodies. Um, it was all crammed into one thing. And what does the year six resource say about? Breast development, anything? Yeah, no. So you've got ovulation, you've got fallopian tubes, you've got, you know, how periods work, but nothing about breast development.

You've got boys and girls drawing pictures of fallopian tubes and they don't know what an areola is. One of the things I found for the breast book is that people don't even know how to say areola. And lots of mums and new parents don't know what to, how to describe that colored circle around their nipple.

So they're, they're calling it a nipple. And that means when they're having a conversation with someone about, you know, cracks and damage, they're using incorrect language. People don't even know what to call parts of their bodies. And we're talking a lot about, you know, vaginas versus vulvas and making sure, making sure we know what a vagina is.

Not hearing anyone talking about, do we know what an areola is. 

[00:52:21] Emma Rosen: I mean, there's so much focus on the menstrual cycle and don't get me wrong. I think it's great that there's loads of focus on the menstrual cycle. I wrote a song about it that I used to sing at the children, um, to the tune of Britney Spears, Hit Me Baby One More Time.

Oh, well, we might have to ask you for that Emma, that's a good song. 

[00:52:39] Emma Pickett: Yeah. But, but, but breast development is part of the menstrual cycle. I mean, what happens to your breasts, breast tenderness, understanding, you know, oestrogen, progesterone at different parts of the month. you know, how, why our breasts feel different.

That is part of that same conversation. But I have never heard anyone tell me that when they learned about menstruation, they learned about why our breasts feel different. I mean, I think it's 

[00:53:01] Emma Rosen: important to, to talk about menstruation, and I'm not for a second, suggesting that we don't, but menstruation is, for most people is gonna happen.

Without you understanding how to do it, we should still know. You know, it would be a big shock if you didn't know what it was and how it works. But breastfeeding requires a certain amount of knowledge and a certain amount of, you know, it's, it's a learned behavior, and yet we don't teach about it again.

If we are looking at the why's, why are we teaching certain things and not others? You know, we teach about lots of bodily functions that are gonna occur regardless. of if you understand how they work or not. But then something that needs you to have a certain amount of understanding isn't on the curriculum.

And I just think if you're looking at the logic of things to include. 

[00:53:59] Emma Pickett: Totally right. And there's even a section of the curriculum in this PSHE Association Resource Bank called Fertility and Pregnancy Choices. So this is a section of the curriculum aimed at older children. So we're talking about key stages 4 and 5 up to the age of 18.

Pregnancy choices? Still nothing. on how you might feed your baby and the thinking you might do in pregnancy around feeding your baby. Oh, just bananas. I mean, I, there's, there's a unit on testicular health, which is important, recognizing torsion and talking about testicular cancer. There's a unit on vulval and vaginal health.

Did you have a look at that unit as well? Did you notice that commercial partnership on that unit? 

[00:54:39] Emma Rosen: Yeah. Yeah. So that one is, uh, developed with Canaston. Um, yeah, I, I was trying to figure out the, oh, I suppose it's brand awareness for Canaston, but yeah, I, I've always got in the back of my mind sort of, is there going to be something trying to sell more Canaston in, I don't know, I'm just suspicious, I'm always suspicious.

I'm 

[00:55:03] Emma Pickett: sure there are lovely, kind people that work for that company, but there's got to be something there about, you know, brand awareness and why that, that they want to be involved in that unit. Um, and there is a unit about breasts on the PSHE Association website. So they have these kind of standalone units that are just a cut and a few lessons.

And there is one, if you search for the word breast on the PSHE Association website, you get one result, which is signposting it to a super important charity called Copperfeel. And Copperfeel are a breast cancer charity, really great at communicating with young people, talking about, um, you know, breast exams and the importance of knowing your, you know, your own breast and chest shape.

And there are some lesson plans that you are signposted to you, but these lesson plans, despite the fact they're talking about breast cancer, they talk about lifestyle factors, but there's still no reference to breastfeeding. Even though we know that the, you know, whether or not your breastfeed has a big impact on your future breast cancer risk.

That's not mentioned and that, that has to, I think, come from a place where, again, we're frightened of the people who haven't managed to meet their goals. We're frightened of people feeling pressure to breastfeed when we know we're sending them out into a community where they're not going to get the support they need.

So we, we spent a long time in this last couple of weeks looking through all these resources. I mean, how do you feel generally thinking about the biology, the PSHE, the PSHE association? I mean, what, what kind of feelings are you left with after all that? 

[00:56:29] Emma Rosen: It's just Really frustrating. How are we still having this conversation?

I mean, I, I wrote a piece when I was doing my master's degree, I wrote a letter to the editor to the Journal of Human Lactation. sort of doing a call to researchers and whoever that this was something that needed to be addressed. You know, you obviously have developed all the amazing resources alongside, um, you work with somebody else, didn't you?

Yeah. So, 

[00:56:58] Emma Pickett: so Andrea Hamilton, who's an IBCLC, um, in South London, she and I worked on these, this unit of work that is on the Association of Breast Mothers website, and that contains lesson plans. From Key Stage 1 right up until secondary school, the idea is that there are individual lesson plans that you can do in nursery school, that you can do in Key Stage 2, um, and alongside that, there's also a kind of PowerPoint presentation that has individual slides that you can use as kind of conversation starters and, and jump off them to do, you know, speaking and listening activities or writing activities.

So we, we created these resources and we know they have been used. We know that there, you know, some, um, I've even been in touch with some, some teachers who've been involved in writing local authority curriculums and have used them as part of those conversations. But it's, it just relies on the enthusiasm of individuals because it's not coming from top down.

It's just about individual, you know, unlike Scotland where it does come from top down in England, it really isn't. And, and we're relying on individual. Often individual breastfeeding peer supporters or parents going into schools, I mean, if, if someone's listening to this and they are a parent are thinking, Oh, well, maybe I could approach my local school.

I mean, what sort of advice would you have for them if they're thinking about doing that? 

[00:58:13] Emma Rosen: I think it's, it's quite hard to approach schools at the moment because schools are extremely busy, underfunded, there's a lot going on in schools right now. And so I think that if you are approaching a school, um, first of all, Making it clear that what you're suggesting doesn't cost them anything.

Yeah. You know, whether you're going along and suggesting that you are willing to help facilitate them delivering that lesson, or series of lessons, or whatever it is. Uh, or if you're just directing them to resources, which is another thing you can do, and just say, Look, I think this is important, and all these things are here if you wanted to use them.

Uh, yeah, making it clear that it won't cost them anything, where they can go to get help in delivering that sort of so they've got all the information, but also, being aware that you will probably have to chase them, because for them to have the the time to properly have a look at it, properly think about it, often with schools you do have to Sort of keep pushing and pushing so it's just being aware of that really that that's such an intense environment at the moment I mean always but particularly at the moment that yeah making things as easy as possible for them and also Sort of keeping reminding them that this really is very important because as we've said With all the resources we've gone through everything we've talked about Right now, what are we, if we talk about education as sort of a system that creates future citizens of our country, I don't know, however you want to phrase it, What are we setting families up for here?

And what are we, what are we setting up people who have breasts for? We're telling them, I mean, the main thing is breast cancer. Really? We don't really say anything else. 

[01:00:09] Emma Pickett: Well, that's the only thing in the, in the PSHE Association resources. It's just about breast cancer. And again, and that's what happens.

Little people just think breasts are the things that give you breast cancer. And from wider society, they get the message that breasts are about being sexy. So if all you've got is they're sexy and they give you cancer, where does breastfeeding fit in that world? And what ends up happening is that people get pregnant, and for the very first time, they are learning about breastfeeding.

As you say, you know, it's almost like we've given them the car, and they're driving the car, and they're suddenly being taught how to drive the car. I mean, it makes no sense at all. Whereas we know that when, you know, these little people in North Lanarkshire who are talking about breastfeeding, you know, under the age of 10, you have to believe that those guys, even if it's, it goes and end up going into their long term memory and they don't remember all the details, they'll come from a place of feeling more positively about breastfeeding.

Not being frightened of bodies, not being frightened about having these conversations. They're going to be more effective, you know, breastfeeding and chest feeding parents and, and partners. We're just, as you say, we're just doing children a disservice and then we're expecting the rates in society to improve.

We're expecting midwives to be able to talk to people who have zero experience of breastfeeding and, you know, have these conversations from scratch. I mean, it's great to hear that you had a whole day of antenatal educational breastfeeding. A lot of people get a couple of hours or an hour. 

[01:01:31] Emma Rosen: And it's optional, usually.

Yeah, and it's 

[01:01:33] Emma Pickett: optional, or their partners are not encouraged to go. Um, or, you know, something bizarre as it being, you know, a women only session, for example. You know, and then we're surprised when, you know, our breastfeeding rates at six weeks are 30%, or, you know, roughly thereabouts. Yeah. It just is bizarre.

And, and lots of very clever people are saying, come on, this doesn't work. You know, RCPCH, that's the Royal College for Pediatricians and Child Health, have said, you know, we've got to add in breastfeeding into education. And they said that years ago. You know, when the curriculum was being developed, people said, no, that, come on, this has got to change.

You know, there are super clever people that are saying how on earth are we expecting little people to be healthy? You know, we're worried about childhood obesity and, and very young people get having issues with their, their weight and, and not being healthy. But we're not joining the dots and it's just bananas.

[01:02:23] Emma Rosen: Yeah. 

[01:02:23] Emma Pickett: Can we ask people to write to their MPs? I'm trying to think what we can, what message we can leave people with at the end of this conversation. How, how can we change these, these situations? 

[01:02:33] Emma Rosen: Yeah. I mean, I, I just think that it's, it's not even just about ensuring that when people breastfeed, they have sort of heard of it, know some things about it and what have you.

It's also that normalization. So the breastfeeding is just, you know Boring. Do you know what I mean? That's the dream, isn't it? Normal 

[01:02:56] Emma Pickett: and 

[01:02:56] Emma Rosen: boring. Yeah, we don't want to have people who see somebody breastfeeding in public and then try and walk past them a bit more often to have a look, or people who say things that are inappropriate.

I mean, all of these things don't happen very often, but they do happen. And then that makes people worried and uncomfortable when they are breastfeeding. I think just having a society where you're just like, oh, that person's breastfeeding. 

[01:03:20] Emma Pickett: Yeah. And when they go back to work, it's completely ordinary. And when someone says, I want to do an antenatal class, the employer thinks that's completely ordinary.

You know, as you say, we just have normalization. It's just about having those everyday little conversations everywhere. And I, you know, we've had a chunk of conversation today about schools, but of course, every person that goes to school also is at home and tons of people don't go to school and are homeschooled.

So maybe we should stop dreaming it's going to be the teachers in the schools that can do this job for us. Maybe it does come down to parents, and as parents, we've got to have these conversations with our children, um, and make sure that, and some people think, oh, I breastfed, so I'm probably okay. You know, my, they've seen a bit of breastfeeding, or they were breastfed themselves.

It's amazing how often someone who is breastfed, even until three or four, forgets. Um, and you know, it's not their normal anymore. So keep talking about breastfeeding, talk about it when your child is 10 and 12 and 14 and, and continue having those conversations because it doesn't sound like at the moment, English government is going to solve this problem for us.

[01:04:24] Emma Rosen: No, it's that bigger picture, isn't it? It's, It's, it's talking about it at home, it's the conversations with people you know, you know. If you're the first person in your friendship group that's had a baby, then you won't necessarily have seen your friends talking about it. Or if you're the first sibling to have had a baby, whatever it might be, and you haven't really come across it, and it wasn't taught at school, and maybe your parents didn't breastfeed or felt a bit uncomfortable talking about it, or don't remember it, and all those things just lead to that lack of information for a person, but also.

on a deeper level within society. So the more that it can just be mentioned just as a, I mean, for me, it's even, Oh, look, that baby's having some milk or, Oh, in this picture, Oh, look, I was feeding you there. And then if it turns into a deeper conversation, great. And if it doesn't, it can just be an observation.

You know, for me teaching, if we're talking about breasts, then mentioning that breasts are for breastfeeding. Um, If we're talking about mammals, pointing out that we are mammals, and I mean, for me, that again is when humans are mammals and mammals are defined as It's animals that feed their babies, or it's one of the parts of the definition of it.

Why aren't we teaching it? I think that's what it comes down to with all of it, with me and you, that we've been talking about, is it just doesn't make sense, but I don't see it changing soon. 

[01:05:52] Emma Pickett: So maybe one of the things, as I said, maybe we should be encouraging people to write to their MPs, because if, you know, if we need to make a change, it's got to start somewhere.

You know, Alison Thewlis, who's a fantastic MP from Glasgow, sadly lost her seat in the last election. She was one of the MPs who was really fighting the cause of, of infant feeding. And I know she would have been very supportive of this if she was still in Westminster. We've got to just talk to our ordinary bog standard MPs and, and wake them up to this.

So it's about talking to our own children. It's about approaching your local schools, but we need to affect political change. It happened in Scotland. So there's no reason why we can't make it happen in England, but you know, we've, we've got to make it happen. Thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it.

Let's carry on being angry together. And I, in the show notes, I will put a link to your books cause I think they're both really special and add a huge amount to the conversation of breastfeeding. So thank you for those books. Thank you. And, um, Yeah. And I look forward to hearing what happens next and where you go next.

Cause your, but your books are really special and maybe one day we'll have a celebratory episode on the new fantastic curriculum that has improved amazingly and actually mentions breastfeeding. Um, fingers crossed. 

[01:07:02] Emma Rosen: Yeah. Wouldn't that be amazing. Thank you. It's been an absolute privilege to talk to you today.

[01:07:10] Emma Pickett: Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at emmapicketibclc and on Twitter at makesmilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.