Beth's story - my diabetes and breastfeeding

Back in episode 21, we explored breastfeeding and diabetes with Lucy Lowe IBCLC, and I’m delighted to be joined this week by Beth, to talk about her personal experience of breastfeeding her two sons, Sage and Jago, with her type 1 diabetes.

We talk about how Beth’s long-term health condition affected her pregnancies, births and breastfeeding. We also cover prematurity, VBAC, aversion and weaning during Beth’s story.

Beth Hawkins is a doula and holistic wellness practitioner. You can find her at @‌bethanyrosehawkins on Instagram. She will be launching a special diabetes coaching option next year so watch this space.

My new book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This Transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett and I'm a Lactation Consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing. And also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. Hello. Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode.

I wanted just to start with a little bit of a Christmasy message because I'm aware that you're downloading this or listening to this very likely over the Christmas period. So a very, very happy Christmas to anyone who's been kind enough to download and listen to my little podcast. I hope you have a wonderful holiday season.

I hope you have a really happy new year. I'm so grateful for all the listeners and comments and support I've had over the last few months for my podcast. Thank you. And I'm really grateful for those of you who've reached out to tell me that the podcast has helped you in your journey or helped you make decisions around weaning.

So I'm imagining that some of you are listening to this, staying away from home. You might be staying with family members. You might be staying with in laws and I'm really hoping that you're surrounded by people who support your breastfeeding journey, who are proud of you. Who help you to feel safe and comfortable and looked after because you spend most of your time looking after other people and giving yourself to others.

So it's really important that you have some time in the year where someone's looking after you. And if that's not your truth, if you have a family environment, which is not necessarily super positive, if you are struggling with negative comments or not even negative comments, but just that kind of tumbleweed silence where no one's talking about the fact you're still breastfeeding.

Um, the same people that used to be all positive and lovely in the first few months are now just not saying anything about breastfeeding at all. If that's your reality, please know that you are not alone, that there are many of us who get the importance of what you're doing and we see you and we know what you're doing is really special, even if some other people with their own messed up baggage don't quite get there.

If it's more than that, and if people really are giving you a hard time, um, I want to refer you to my episode, um, called dealing with family pressure, where two very inspirational women talk about their experiences of being alongside family members who don't get their breastfeeding journeys and have not supported them and how they cope with that and, and how they come through that with, with strength and with inspiration.

And I also wanted to refer you to another episode from the back at the very beginning of my podcasts called Well Done for Breastfeeding Until Now. If you need a reminder of why you're doing this, if no one else is getting it and you need someone to remind you why this is important, take a few minutes to listen to that episode.

One thing that sometimes happens at this time of year is that people make resolutions or people decide to make changes to their breastfeeding journey as part of those resolutions. I would just say that the beginning of January isn't necessarily the easiest time to make changes to a breastfeeding journey, especially night weaning or trying to drop the morning feed when it's dark and cold.

So don't necessarily take a date on a calendar as a time to change your breastfeeding journey. Have a think about what works for you in terms of light and the time of year and what's happening with holiday times and the where, where you are and, and where you're feeling mentally. But if you are thinking that maybe time, now's the time to make some changes.

Have a listen to my episode, Making the Decision to Wean, to check whether that is right for you. You don't have to commit to full weaning. You could just put some boundaries in place. You could just start to make some changes on a journey that can take as long as you want that journey to take. If you're really struggling and feeling overwhelmed, the answer may be to put some changes in around your parenting and the way you connect with your child and the type of play you do with your child and how you put boundaries in place in other ways.

Rather than necessarily ending the breastfeeding because you might end the breastfeeding and still have lots of problems there Which which haven't gone away have a listen to my episode where I talked to Shelley Clark the parenting mentor Breastfeeding boundaries and big feelings if you are feeling overwhelmed and you feel the power dynamic in your relationship with your child is not great But enough of the business.

Happy Christmas. I hope you have a really lovely week and a special holiday season And again, thank you so much for listening. Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode. I'm really thrilled to be talking to Bethany Hawkins from Devon and we're going to be talking about her two breastfeeding stories.

She has two sons, Sage who's four and Jago who's now two and a half. We'll be talking about her breastfeeding experiences and they were very different breastfeeding experiences and they ended in very different ways at different ages. But one of the themes that goes through both of those journeys is the fact that Beth is type 1 diabetic And we'll also be talking about aversion and a few other themes as well As well as weaning and the experience of weaning an older child.

Thanks very much for joining me today, Beth 

[00:05:24] Beth: Thank you very much for having me. 

[00:05:26] Emma Pickett: I really appreciate it. So I did do an episode a while ago about diabetes and breastfeeding And in that episode, I interviewed Lucy Lowe, who's an IBCLC who specializes in working with diabetes in pregnancy. And we, and we talked a lot about gestational diabetes and we talked about her project in Norfolk.

So it would be great to have this as a compliment to that episode to very much hear it from your perspective, particularly as somebody who's type one diabetic. Before we launch into your breastfeeding stories, let's, let's start with some basic science for those, anyone who's not familiar. What is type 1 diabetes?

[00:05:58] Beth: So type 1 diabetes is a lifelong chronic health condition. So that means unlike type 2, it's not reversible. You, once you are diagnosed with type 1, you have it for life. In a nutshell, the pancreas has stopped producing a hormone called insulin. which everybody has, and it's how the body regulates blood sugar.

So, um, ideally the blood sugar is between 4 and 8, which basically means that the body can work well, your brain can get enough energy, you know, or your organs can work well. And when you don't produce the right hormones, the blood sugar levels are just all over the place. And there's lots of things that affect blood sugar, so it's not just food, it's diet, it's the weather, it's hormones, pregnancy, breastfeeding.

So in a type 1, normally something has happened, so it's an autoimmune, so the body has been triggered to kill off these cells in the pancreas. And it means that the body is no longer able to regulate its own blood sugar. So every type one is now in charge of this very important job, and it is very much a self managed condition.

So, um, a lot of people now are on insulin pumps. I started off, you know, I've been diabetic for 25 years, so it was a lot different back then, and the technology has really advanced. It's an, it's amazing, the technology now, but, um, it is still something that takes a lot of time and a lot of effort. And then you sort of throw in pregnancy and breastfeeding, which is challenging anyway, and um, yeah, it's, yeah, it's, it's a challenge.

[00:07:44] Emma Pickett: Thank you, Beth. I mean, being a mother of two little boys is not easy at the best of times when you've got to put all that effort and thinking as well into your own condition. Yeah. That's that extra layer of complication. Exactly. You mentioned that you've been diagnosed for a long time. So you were diagnosed in childhood?

[00:07:59] Beth: Yeah, I was, um, I was nine, uh, when I was diagnosed. It's almost 25 years ago. And normally it is diagnosed in children. It's normally after like a, like a childhood illness or something triggers, um, triggers it. But it is, it does happen later in life. I know people that were diagnosed in their 20s, in their 30s, So it's not just, they don't, it used to be called juvenile onset diabetes, but it's not just that anymore.

People are being diagnosed later in life. But yeah, I was diagnosed as a child. I was, you know, very unwell and realized that this was something that I was going to have to deal with for the rest of my life, basically, which at nine is quite a big concept. Um, you don't really think about. Being an old lady or you know, even having children.

It doesn't really yeah, you're just a child yourself. So 

[00:08:50] Emma Pickett: yeah Yeah, big big for you and big big for your parents as well. I'm guessing in those days it was about, you know, pricking your finger and putting a spot of blood somewhere and yeah waiting for a little measurement and injections and injections Yeah, and now tell us what the technology is like now.

What's the sort of day to day for you? So I have 

[00:09:10] Beth: an Omnipod which is a Um, I wish I could show you, but obviously it's only audio. So I'll try and describe it, but it's a small little pod. It's probably, it fits in the palm of your hand and it's stuck with a really sticky sticker onto my skin. And when you first put it on, a little needle goes into my body and then it comes straight out again.

So it leaves like a little, a little cannula underneath the skin and it constantly trickles insulin into my body. It's actually got AI. It's a little bit too advanced for my brain, but it learns the patterns of my body. It's also linked to another device I wear called a Dexcom, which is, it's a CGM, a continuous glucose monitor.

So instead of pricking my finger now, this little device, which also sits on a sticker on top of my skin, but it has a little element that sits under your skin, that constantly reads my blood sugar 24 7, and that automatically sends my readings to the insulin pump. Um, it's called a closed loop system, so it's sort of like a circle, so they're both talking to each other all day, and if my blood sugar's going down, then it adjusts how much insulin I need, and if it's going up, it also adjusts it, so it's always trying to keep me.

Wow. I mean, that is so bloody 

[00:10:26] Emma Pickett: clever, isn't it? It's 

[00:10:27] Beth: so clever. 

[00:10:29] Emma Pickett: And that's on the NHS? It is on 

[00:10:31] Beth: the NHS. It's quite new. It's, it's not, everyone has it because it's obviously to do with finances and budgets and everything like that. But I've had it now for about. I've had it about two years now. Okay. And 

[00:10:41] Emma Pickett: it has been life changing.

That's amazing. And before that you were still testing blood, were you? Two years ago. Yeah, I was still testing. So you're doing that while you were, 

[00:10:50] Beth: you 

[00:10:50] Emma Pickett: just had a baby and you had a two year 

[00:10:52] Beth: old. I got the Dexcom when I was pregnant with Sage. They gave it to me because they knew it was going to be life changing, but it didn't talk.

I still had to like, do like, let it know what was happening basically. And now that they're matched up, I still have to input when I eat, because obviously it doesn't know. If I've had one doughnut or one piece of chicken, I have to let it know how many carbs I've had, and that isn't always easy. And you know what it's like when you've got young kids, sometimes I'm just polishing off their, you know, their, their crusts.

And I don't eat a proper meal, or I, I just forget that I haven't given myself some insulin, that I haven't told the pod that I need to, you know, it needs to give me some extra insulin. So, it's not perfect, but It's life changing, in all honesty. Yeah, it is life changing. 

[00:11:36] Emma Pickett: I just imagine going back in a time machine 100 years and telling the people who first started insulin injections.

Can you imagine? Well, obviously, as you say, in the early 1900s, people weren't living, but even just to go back and say, look what's happening. It's amazing. Amazing. Very 

[00:11:49] Beth: uncommon to have children as well as a type 1 diabetic. So the technology is absolutely phenomenal. But what I found in my experiences with pregnancy and breastfeeding is the research and the care Hasn't really come along with the technology.

That's interesting because the technology is so new Most hospitals don't even know what it is. It's sort of yeah a bit too new for them in a way 

[00:12:13] Emma Pickett: Yeah, that's interesting. So the tech is ahead of the training, is ahead of the sort of culture around diabetes and treating diabetes. That's interesting. I look forward to exploring that a little bit more.

Just another boring technical question. So you have to put insulin in your pod. How often are you doing that? 

[00:12:28] Beth: Every three days. Okay. And then I have to take it off and put a new one on in a different place because obviously the body starts to go, uh, what's this? And it can either become infected or just a bit sore and the insulin doesn't absorb properly.

Okay. 'cause it is a foreign body at the end of the day. So every three days you take it off, put a new one on. It's quite a quick process. It only takes probably five minutes to do, but it, it's another thing to remember, you know, another thing. Oh, okay. Gotta change my pod. 

[00:12:55] Emma Pickett: And it can, it can move around a certain part, part of your body, but obviously not so tops of 

[00:12:59] Beth: your arms.

Okay. Tops of your arms, stomach, legs generally is, is where it's safe to, to put it. Okay. Um, it's gotta go into sort of like the fatty areas so it's, um, it can absorb the insulin. 

[00:13:11] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:13:11] Beth: And it's waterproof, fine 

[00:13:13] Emma Pickett: for 

[00:13:13] Beth: showers 

[00:13:14] Emma Pickett: and things like 

[00:13:14] Beth: that. Yep. Showers, baths, swimming. Sometimes I do get it caught on things and it pulls off, which isn't a very nice experience.

Generally, it's great. You know, you can't see it, it hides underneath your clothing. Before I was on a pod that had a long, a long lead. And that, you know, co sleeping, I'd quite often wake up, it's definitely not safe. Like, wrapped around the baby's arm or whatever, because it's, it's on a lead. So that's why they put me onto this one.

Um, because it's much safer. 

[00:13:42] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Thanks. Thank you so much for answering all those questions and going into that detail. I'm also just suddenly struck all the people in the world who have diabetes who don't have this technology. I know. And are trying to cope and, and, uh, yeah, it's a 

[00:13:55] Beth: difficult situation. I feel very blessed, which is, which is a weird thing because obviously I have this chronic health condition, but I feel so grateful for my health and for the technology that's available to me.

[00:14:05] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:14:05] Beth: I do feel very grateful. 

[00:14:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like I'm telling you to something super obvious, but you're allowed to be grateful and still. Be annoyed about the extra hassles and, and the challenges and the fact that people don't always give you the right support and, and that's some of the stuff that we'll be exploring today.

Let's go back to your first pregnancy with Sage. So Sage was a lockdown baby. And I know that before we talk about this, you did have a difficult birth with Sage. So I don't want you to feel you have to share things that don't feel comfortable. And that's just a little announcement for anyone who's, who themselves had a difficult birth, so they're prepared for that conversation.

Tell me a little bit about the care you had in pregnancy. Like, did people have conversations with you about breastfeeding? What was happening when you were pregnant? 

[00:14:51] Beth: Um, I was very keen to breastfeed. So I think it's important to say that I have worked with pregnant women for quite a long time. So I'm a pregnancy obesitor and a pregnancy massage therapist, and I I was also training to be a doula at the same time as I was pregnant, so, and my mum's a doula, so, you know, I was very keen to breastfeed and I knew that that was going to be part of my journey.

I fell pregnant and then we went into lockdown when I was five months pregnant, so I did have a little bit of like normal, you know, normal care. The hospital I was under was, I would say, was quite old school. And I remember going into my first appointment, which they call a multidisciplinary appointment, and there was about eight people in the room, and it was very overwhelming.

And I'm, I, you know, I'm quite a confident person and I still felt very, um, just overwhelmed with the amount of people there. Gosh, that's, that's in the middle of the pandemic, 

[00:15:47] Emma Pickett: eight people in a room. Yeah, 

[00:15:49] Beth: yeah, it was. Wow. So this was just before, this was just before. So this was when I was just pregnant.

Okay. Um, and yes, this would have been end of 2020. 19, you know, it was dietitians and diabetic nurse and consultant, which is great if that's what you want. But I felt very confident and looking after myself, even though I hadn't done it before the pregnancy. I, I really knew my diabetes and I really know my body and I felt very confident with that.

Um, so that came up as a shock and they, and they, you know, the first thing they said to me was, you will be induced at 37 weeks. And it was like, Okay, I'm like a week pregnant. Can we just sort of let this, see how it goes, you know, see how the pregnancy goes, see how I'm feeling, see how, you know, because that's just their policy.

That's just the, that's just the, you know, nice guidelines say that. That's it, basically. They're worried 

[00:16:43] Emma Pickett: about a big baby? If your diabetes is well managed, though, it's not They don't 

[00:16:49] Beth: really have any research on well managed diabetics. I think that is the whole problem. All the research is from 10 15 years ago, when the technology wasn't as good.

But they can only go with what they have, and that's their argument, you know, they've got no current research. But in terms of breastfeeding, I don't remember any conversations, apart from with my midwife, who was keen to support me. And that was it really, it wasn't really, well I wouldn't say it was unsupported, but I wouldn't say it was particularly supported.

It was more about the pregnancy and the birth, and how it was going to be very medicalised, and this is what was going to happen, and sort of being told what to do. I don't really like being told what to do, so that was hard. Yeah, I wrote quite a strong letter of complaint after that meeting, actually, I remember.

[00:17:38] Emma Pickett: Okay, well, well done. Well done for doing that, because that's how things do change, eventually, by 

[00:17:42] Beth: people speaking up. 

[00:17:44] Emma Pickett: And did someone talk to you about antenatal expression? Was that a conversation you had? It was, and it's, 

[00:17:48] Beth: yeah, it was a, it was a conversation, but they were also really keen to not, not do anything to, to encourage labor early because diabetics aren't prone to going early.

So that they were, there's that fine line, but they did encourage me to express and have some colostrum, um, and have that on, on hand. Um, Whatever, whatever way the back went, basically, which I did do. How was that experience for you? How did you find it? That was fine. I, I've I was really fortunate that I've never seemed to have a struggle with production.

Um, so I remember just having like so much colostrum even early on. Um, yeah, so that was, that was great and it made me feel quite confident that my body was, I know it's not a sign of how breastfeeding is going to go, but I felt, you know, psychologically, it felt good that I was already producing colostrum and, um, had that on hand for the baby.

Um, because they use it if the baby's blood sugars are low, they tend to try and use the colostrum to obviously. Bring them back up again. Yeah, I mean 

[00:18:51] Emma Pickett: that's one of the reasons it's recommended particularly for mums who are diabetic I just want to just do a little shout out here for the fact that antenatal expressing can be such a Confidence boost when it works and such a absolute kick in the teeth when it doesn't So if anyone's listening to this and thinking oh, no, I'm impregnant I can't express colostrum or you know, I could never express a colostrum Does that mean my milk supply is always gonna be a problem?

Not the case at all You know, some people literally can't get a single drop out and they have zero problem with milk production once baby's here. But if you can, if you can make it work, it is super helpful for sure. Yeah, I think more 

[00:19:25] Beth: psychologically, I think it felt good. It was like, okay, this is something that my body is doing, right?

You know, it's growing this baby and it's, um, I am producing some colostrum. So that, that felt really good actually. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, like you say, I know it's not a 

[00:19:41] Emma Pickett: Doesn't always mean that it's going to work, but. Yeah, I didn't mean to sort of do a kind of public service announcement. I just wanted to make sure that we mentioned that for anyone who's listening.

Yeah, no, I agree. Definitely. And, and you mentioned briefly that you'd had a C-section with Sage. Yeah. And I'm sorry I made you jump back to pregnancy again. No, that's fine. No, but I just wanted to make sure we, we'd covered that. So tell us what happened with, with Sage's birth. 

[00:20:01] Beth: So, um, his birth, bless him.

Yeah. I really wanted to have a home birth. I was adamant that that was gonna happen and it was so out of their comfort zone to support a type one diabetic birthing at home. I really felt like they put down everything to try and stop me, and in the end it ended up. with a social services threat. Oh Beth, I'm so sorry.

Yeah, which I'm actually, I'm actually okay about it now. I've done quite a lot of work. Um, been through a bit of therapy. Um, so I'm quite happy to talk about it. But it was awful. I was 37 weeks pregnant. Had an amazing pregnancy. My husband was furloughed. We lived on Gower in a beautiful house on the beach and it was that lovely summer.

So I really felt like I had just a really lovely pregnancy whilst the world was in chaos. We were just at home enjoying just being pregnant and yeah, and then they had a, uh, uh, a meeting without me there, which felt a bit horrible. And they decided that the risk of the baby having low blood sugars was too high.

And it was a safeguarding issue that the baby would be not be in the hospital. And it really, really upset me. It totally threw me. And I think it was just being heavily pregnant and vulnerable. If I, like, if I said it to me when I wasn't pregnant, I think maybe I'd have thought a bit differently. But, you know, when you're that pregnant, you know, a threat towards yourself and your child just feels so different.

It just feels Yeah, so as soon as the safeguarding sort of social services threat was thrown around it just, it really wobbled me and it really shook me and I was still, I was still hoping for a home birth, but I think the stress of it all just, yeah, it just really got to me. And then two days after that phone call, I actually went into labour.

Oh gosh, what a, what a nightmare situation. Yeah, it wasn't, it 

[00:21:59] Emma Pickett: wasn't great. I'm not gonna lie, it was, it was really horrible. Yeah. Ugh, I mean, just the whole dynamic of that is just so, 

[00:22:05] Beth: so untrusting. They just took my decisions away from me. That's what it felt like. They just had, that's what they wanted.

They didn't want me to be at home. And they were going to use every tactic they could to get me to go into the hospital. 

[00:22:16] Emma Pickett: I guess I'm a bit confused. I don't know enough about it. I'm not a consultant. I'm not an obstetrician. I'm not going to pretend I am. But, but if the risk is low blood sugar, and you've, you've done really well with expressing colostrum, and you're literally going to have syringes of colostrum there, and you don't live No, 

[00:22:32] Beth: we were only about 15 minute drive from the hospital, 20 minute drive.

We're not going to take 

[00:22:38] Emma Pickett: 20 minutes to get a baby from maternity up 

[00:22:41] Beth: to This is the thing, I think whatever, you know, they'd made the decision that I wasn't going to stay at home. That's what it felt like. It was too much of a risk for them to support it. I had a conversation with a paediatric doctor and they said that signs of low blood sugar are really hard to spot.

That was their argument. Um, it was too hard, you know, you can't tell if they're going to suddenly have a really bad hypo. 

[00:23:05] Emma Pickett: Yeah, okay. 

[00:23:06] Beth: So, yeah. 

[00:23:07] Emma Pickett: Okay, so you went 

[00:23:08] Beth: to hospital. Went to hospital, Waters went, went to hospital, and it was just a very long labor. I think in the end it was about 40 something hours, maybe nearly 50 hours.

And I was exhausted and it just was that classic cascade of intervention, had an epidural, nothing happening, um, and then it just got to the point it was like I was eight centimeters and I think I was just, I just didn't want to be there. I just didn't want to be in the hospital. And I think that is the big thing that stopped it from progressing fully.

And it wasn't, it wasn't an emergency scene section by any means. It was like, I was just knackered, really. I was just absolutely exhausted and it felt like we'd run out of options. Um, so I went for a C section and Because it was COVID, everyone was extremely masked up, you know, it was, and I'm sorry if this is triggering for anybody because it was, it wasn't a very, you know, it wasn't a nice experience in it.

I think we've all sort of blocked that time out of COVID, but I couldn't see anyone's faces, everyone had masks and like screens over their faces. And, you know, it just felt like I was in a slightly weird room with people that I didn't know and couldn't see. And, unfortunately, they caught one of my Veins, I guess that's the word right word and I and I bled quite a lot.

Um, and it all went well in the end But I remember coming out and just feeling like I'd been through an absolute war zone It was just like what was that? Just yeah a real. Yeah, just a really traumatic experience. It felt like And then a couple of hours after Sage was born luckily. He was very well, very healthy.

No low blood sugars Went on the boobs straight away, was very happy to, he was quite sleepy because I think because of the drugs and the long labour. Um, I remember having to keep, you know, really trying to keep him awake, but, um, he fed like an absolute champ. But my husband had to leave pretty much straight away after I'd, I'd gone through all that.

And I was on the postnatal ward and wasn't allowed anyone there and I couldn't move. And I kept dropping my buzzer on the floor and I couldn't reach it because I'd had a C section and everyone was very busy. It was, yeah, it wasn't a great experience. Sounds like an 

[00:25:35] Emma Pickett: understatement. Before, before you tell us about the next step, I'm just curious about how your diabetes works during that 40, 50 hour labor.

That's a long time. I mean, I mean, are you able to eat? I mean, what's the story with keeping up your energy levels and monitoring your condition? 

[00:25:50] Beth: So, so they. It's really important to keep your blood sugars stable in labour because if the blood sugars are a bit high then that can be transferred over to the baby and then they can have a big drop.

So I was really like strict on keeping it level and in hindsight I didn't eat enough. I didn't, I didn't drink enough because I was so fearful of the baby having not good blood sugars. And 'cause it was such a long labor, but I was on a, I was on an insulin pump at the time and I trained my husband up on all my devices so that he basically just took over the care of my diabetes.

And they were actually really happy for me to normally, like they did want me to go onto a drip and I was like, there's no way I'm handing over my care to someone that doesn't understand my body. So I was really pleased that I just stayed on my pump, you know, it was set to all my normal settings and it just, we just kept an eye on it and if I needed a little bit of something, you know, a little bit of something sweet to drink or, um, and, and actually it was okay.

But I did get some ketones, which you normally get when you're unwell. Um, which the nurses were a bit concerned about, but it was because I wasn't eating enough. It's called starvation ketone, so it's a different, it's a different thing. Um, so yeah, in hindsight, I should have, I should have been eating more, I should have been drinking more, I should have.

But, you know, there was enough going on, I think, to think about, to then think of this. I thought I was doing the best thing, but yeah, in hindsight. 

[00:27:21] Emma Pickett: And then the blood loss, was that significant enough you needed a transfusion, or? No, 

[00:27:26] Beth: it was just on, just on the level of not needing one, which I was, yeah, but I, I remember feeling pretty rough after the After the c section, um, I'm just exhausted, just absolutely exhausted, you know, like a very long labour and stress of what had gone on just a few days before and Covid and husband not being able to be there.

It was an absolute whirlwind. I 

[00:27:52] Emma Pickett: mean that, that horrible sort of social services threat. Did that sort of image of hangover, you like, Oh my God, if I don't get X, Y, Z right, that sort of conversation will be back again. Or was it just around the birth? It was just around the birth. You were able to say goodbye to that worry.

Yeah, I did. I didn't want to let 

[00:28:07] Beth: them in. I didn't want to let them win in a way. I thought, you know what, I'm gonna, you've already felt like you stole my birth from me. I'm not letting you have any, any, any more, you know? 

[00:28:18] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:28:18] Beth: So I was quite. 

[00:28:19] Emma Pickett: I'm 

[00:28:19] Beth: just adamant about that 

[00:28:20] Emma Pickett: really. Okay, I'm glad that you had that sort of, that way to protect yourself and that mindset because sometimes anxiety is not always logical.

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And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond 6 months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding. For a 10 percent discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley Press, that's uk. jkp. com and use the code MMPE10. Makes milk, pick it Emma, 10.

Fantastic Sage, who was a breastfeeding trooper by the sounds of it, comes home. How were the next few weeks with 

[00:29:23] Beth: him? Um, mentally, I was a mess. Physically, my body recovered really well. I'm, I'm very fortunate to have a husband that loves to take care of me. So he was cooking me all the, you know, very amazing, nutritious meals and just was an absolute rock, to be honest.

He really pulled me through those very dark first few weeks. And, yeah, I just try to slowly recover, I think, mentally, physically, emotionally. So when 

[00:29:56] Emma Pickett: you say dark weeks, are you thinking about in terms of just physically recovering, emotionally recovering from the trauma of those experiences, or was there an extra layer of something on top of that as well?

Yeah, 

[00:30:08] Beth: I, looking back, I definitely, the first year was plagued with postnatal depression, which I think definitely stemmed from the birth. And I just remember coming home from the hospital and I was just, I just sobbed for about a day. I was just, I felt like it broke me to be totally honest and I, I remember saying to my husband, I don't think I'm ever going to be the same after that.

And I don't think I am. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing, but it definitely changed me that, that whole experience. But one thing that I'm very grateful for is that Sage was just I hate to say it, but he was just the perfect baby. He, 

[00:30:49] Emma Pickett: he fed well. Good for Sage. Thank you, Sage. Yeah, thank you so much.

You needed that in that moment, for sure. Yeah, I 

[00:30:53] Beth: did need that. And for a, you know, for a first, it's normally a bit of a shock, isn't it? But I just, he just fed and slept and there was no extra challenges. You know, I think maybe the universe thought that I'd been through enough. So they thought, you know, he was still a newborn and he still, you know, needed to be held a lot and wanted to sleep on earth.

And, you know. In hindsight, looking at what, like, what Jago was like, my second son, Sage was a breeze. Sage was just, yeah, it's such a lovely, sweet little baby. I'm sure still a very sweet 

[00:31:28] Emma Pickett: little thing. Oh, yeah. So I don't mean to kind of burst the bubble of Sage being a fantastic, wonderful breastfeeding experience, but you did experience some aversion with Sage.

Tell us a little bit. I did. 

[00:31:38] Beth: Um, I think one thing that I will mention about breastfeeding with Sage was that One thing that I wasn't really expecting was that because I know they said to me like your blood sugars will drop when you feed and I was like, okay, so in the first I would say three weeks of his life, I could eat whatever I wanted.

And I didn't really need to take any insulin, which is unheard of. It was almost like I didn't have diabetes, I guess because my body was working so hard and using up so much energy. You know, carbohydrates are normally what I have to be careful with, but I was eating pizzas, I was eating rounds of toast, I was having cake.

It was like I could eat whatever I wanted and that was just like, it felt amazing to be totally honest. So I always think that's a nice thing to say to other diabetic mums that hopefully you'll experience that, like, really amazing little insight into being able to just eat whatever you want and not worry about it really.

But yeah, like I say, my first year was definitely plagued with personal depression. Yeah, I struggled a lot with just my mental health, and then it got to, yeah, stage was about one, and the aversions started creeping in, and I was very touched out all the time, and was not enjoying it anymore. I was not, you know, we'd had a lovely connection through our breastfeeding journey, but I was getting to the point of just wanting to rip him off and just get him off me, basically.

Um, and I just thought, I can't do this anymore. I just felt like I'd got to a point that I couldn't, couldn't continue. And I just went cold turkey. I just stopped. I just thought I'm done. And actually he did really well. He coped amazingly. And I think actually it was the right thing for us. Um, I just went straight straight to bottles.

Yeah. And yeah, I don't even think he had bottles, really. I think he was just over one. I can't even remember him having bottles, to be honest. But he obviously had something. He ate really well. Yeah, you know, he was a big foodie. So I think that also helped. 

[00:33:43] Emma Pickett: And did you get any support around weaning or you just instinctively knew I've just got, I've just got to cut this, cut this suddenly and stop this 

[00:33:50] Beth: suddenly?

I just stopped. Yeah, I just stopped and I, I didn't find, it wasn't particularly hard with him so I didn't feel the need to reach out. We just stopped. When 

[00:34:00] Emma Pickett: he'd been, just prior to stopping, what were his feeding patterns like? What were nights like with him? 

[00:34:06] Beth: He was a big feeder. Yeah, he just wanted to feed all the time, day and night, and just, he was nine pound three, so I feel like he was always big, he's still big now, he's just a big child with a big appetite, and I know there's not always a correlation between size and how much they, they drink, but, um, he, yeah, he was just a big feeder, and I found it quite intense keeping up with his.

Needs. 

[00:34:32] Emma Pickett: And was it something about the fact that he'd got to 12 months that sort of felt like, so you felt now I can do it now, where I couldn't do it 

[00:34:40] Beth: necessarily a month ago? Yeah, I, I know, and you know, I said to myself, I'll just go as long as I can. But I felt like a year was a good point for us both.

And I wanted to really start focusing on myself after going through such a traumatic birth. I wanted to, I wanted to heal from it, and it felt like. for some reason stopping the breastfeeding was part of that in a way it was like okay I've given all that to him and now I can focus on myself a little bit more and get myself better 

[00:35:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah, no, I understand that uh, even though you know, you know, we've we've spoken about jago's journey And you know a lot of my work is around supporting that gentle end I just want to make sure you know, i'm not judging this decision that you made.

I can, I can absolutely hear that this was the right thing for you. And you needed to have that clean break and you needed to have time to look after yourself and, and you hadn't necessarily got the, good. I don't want to imply for a second that you should because I don't, the emotional capacity to do a very gradual journey is not necessarily something that was available to you, nor is that necessarily the right thing for you.

If that, it sounds like what you did worked, which is really important. And on the 

[00:35:42] Beth: flip 

[00:35:42] Emma Pickett: side, it took Jago five months. to wish. So I've, I've had both ends of the spectrum, but just thinking about that, that day when you woke up and said, right, I'm not breastfeeding today. I mean, did you pump? I mean, your breasts presumably were quite a high level of production and also your diabetes management.

I mean, on a little leaflet about diabetes, that is not what you're meant to be doing. You're breastfeeding. So you must have had to be very careful around your levels. Tell me about that day. What do you remember about that day? 

[00:36:10] Beth: All I remember is just thinking, okay, this is the last feed, and I wanted to remember the last feed.

So I said, this is the last feed, and that was that. And then, you know, it's not a big thing in my mind that it was an awful thing. I don't particularly remember my boobs being very sore. I must have expressed, but it does not stand out in my memory, to be honest. 

[00:36:30] Emma Pickett: Okay. 

[00:36:31] Beth: I think maybe Jago's was such a It's such a process that Sages has just disappeared.

Um, but yeah, blood sugars, I remember having to keep an eye on them, but they were okay. They were, because by that point, your body is sort of used to that amount of production. Yeah, I don't, I don't 

[00:36:52] Emma Pickett: remember it. Been tricky at all. Yeah. I'm guessing if you're expressing, you probably must have done a fair bit of expressing otherwise you would've, you would've had major mastitis and blocked ducks and engorgement and, and your sugar levels would've crashed as well.

So yeah, maybe that was, yeah. I never had sitis, 

[00:37:08] Beth: so I, I must have pumped, I must have just, yeah. Gradually stopped and, yeah. But yeah, like I say, it doesn't, I think J Go's was such a, such a difficult process that Sage's is just gone. 

[00:37:20] Emma Pickett: Yeah, no, fair enough. And I think, well, I think you would have remembered if there were, there were key things and, and, and after that, did you feel that you were able to start getting better in terms of your mental health?

[00:37:30] Beth: I did. Yeah, I had, I had a bit more space to go for therapy and yeah, just worked for a bit basically. 

[00:37:37] Emma Pickett: Okay, good. And then little Jago came along, and you were pregnant with him. Yeah, 

[00:37:43] Beth: I got pregnant not long after that. I think Sage was 15 months when I fell pregnant with Jago. Which, he was planned, but he came along quite quickly, so mentally it was quite hard.

Knowing that I was gonna go back through the process that I'd just been through. Which had you had 

[00:38:00] Emma Pickett: time to get some of that therapy and those key months in 

[00:38:02] Beth: between? A bit? Yeah. Okay. I did, I did. Probably not as much as I would've liked, but I did get quite, yeah, I did work through quite a lot of it. Okay.

Um, and I kept, I carried on throughout the pregnancy as well, so by the time that his birth came around, I was in a really good place. 

[00:38:17] Emma Pickett: Were you going to need to repeat the same, were you living in the same area or you moved to Devon at this point? 

[00:38:22] Beth: No, we were still in Wales. Um, I. Put myself under the care of a different hospital because I just could not, I couldn't even drive past the hospital that Sage was born in.

So the thought of going back there for my care wasn't going to work. So I changed hospitals and I was much clearer about what I wanted. I only had two scans the whole pregnancy. Whereas, you know, I think it's every week from 32 weeks they like to scan diabetic mums. And you have a, you have like an early one, you have a 12 week, you have a 16 week.

you know, by the end of it, you've had mighty, you know, 10, 15 scans. So with Jago, I had two scans. I had my twin, I had my 12 week, my 20 week, that was it. Um, I sort of told them what I wanted really. And they, they were really good with me. They could see that I'd been through a lot and they could see that I was, you know, very much on it with my diabetes and they supported me, which was great.

I was a bit wary of telling them that I wanted to have a home birth, but obviously because of my previous experience, so I hadn't really even started having the birth chat with them. I was going to leave it till sort of really late and just maybe even just bring it on them right at the last moment.

Obviously, this was going to be a VBAC because I had a cesarean with Sage and I didn't want to have another cesarean if I, if I could help it. Um, so that was something else to consider alongside. Everything else, you know, my red flags will definitely wait in their eyes. There was a lot going on, um, but my consultant was very supportive.

Actually, she was great. And for one reason or another, we, we weren't in a great housing situation and we had to move house quite quickly. And I, again, I think the stress of the move had something to do with it, but I actually went into labor with Jager when I was 35 weeks pregnant. It was two days after we'd moved house and I felt oddly calm about the fact that I was in premature labour or early, you know, early labour.

I wanted to stay at home but intuitively I knew that this was a little bit too early for me and I, I didn't feel, I didn't feel it was the right decision to stay at home. So we did end up going into hospital but it was a different hospital to the one that I had stayed in. The labour was quite quick. Uh, I got to the hospital and I was already eight centimeters and I was sort of left to it, which was, which was really nice.

Um, and he was born, yeah, I, I had to, I think because of the C section, I had quite a lot of scar tissue and I, I, I pushed for a long time. That stage of labor was quite long and that meant he was sat in my birth canal for quite a long time and they got a bit, they got a bit concerned that he'd been in there a while.

I also was diagnosed with a blood clot in pregnancy. So I was on blood thinning injections, so they couldn't use, um, you know, they didn't want to cut me and they didn't want to, you know, they were quite cautious about what they wanted to use. And also because he was five weeks early, they don't recommend forceps or any sort of instrumental birth.

you know, they were getting a bit on edge about the fact I've been fishing for a really long time. And then eventually he came. Um, so I did get my V back, which was an amazing feeling. It was a very healing birth in lots of ways, actually. Um, and then he was born and bless him. He came out and he was very, very bruised and very swollen.

And he just didn't look like Sage did. I know that sounds strange, but he was obviously struggling a little bit. He was a little bit grunty and a bit, just, he went, he went to the breast straight away, but he just didn't seem very comfortable, and it took them quite a few hours to decide what to do, but they decided that he did need to go to special care, and he was taken round to special care, which was quite.

scary. They did have a talk to us about how they did think he might have some brain damage because the birth was quite long, which wasn't a conversation I was expecting. No, you know, no parent expects to have that conversation. 

[00:42:43] Emma Pickett: Gosh, that's, 

[00:42:44] Beth: that's 

[00:42:44] Emma Pickett: a scary conversation. Yeah, it 

[00:42:46] Beth: was really scary. And then he was straight into an incubator, you know, hooked up to loads of machines and wires and scans and all these different things going on.

And that, that was really scary. And And we found out that he had fluid on his lungs, so he needed a bit of help just to clear out his lungs, um, which took about three days in the end. Um, but throughout that process, I was adamant that I was breastfeeding him. And I, was there by his bedside feeding him whenever he showed any signs of needed feeding.

You know, by that point I was quite a confident breastfeeder, I would say, but feeding a premature baby with lots of wires is a very different experience. 

[00:43:29] Emma Pickett: Yeah, and not, they don't all necessarily have a very well developed suck, even at 35 weeks. What was going on with Jago? No, he, 

[00:43:35] Beth: he was fine. He, he could suck.

He was obviously quite sleepy and he was having lots of. You know, different drugs pumped around him and just getting into the right position was quite difficult and not wanting to hurt him and he had like splints on his arms and things, but, um, thankfully he fed really well. He had, I think he had half a bottle of formula because they were a bit worried about his blood sugars, but.

Um, I was like, no, he doesn't, he doesn't need that. He just needs to be fed. And, um, we were extremely in tune right from the beginning. Like I'd go back to my room and then I would know when he would need to feed, I could just feed it and I'd walk back and they said, yeah, he's just started crying. So I just, it was, you know, it was just lovely to, to know that we had this lovely connection, even from the other side of the hospital.

Like I knew when he needed me. Yeah, it was lovely. How 

[00:44:24] Emma Pickett: long was he in special care for? 

[00:44:26] Beth: He was in special care for three days and then we were in the hospital for eight days because he also had jaundice and they put him on that pathway which is just like impossible to get off basically. That's what it felt like.

His levels kept dropping and then going up again and dropping and oh it was, it was at the time it was extremely difficult. I just wanted to hold him and feed him but he needed to be in that box with the lights on and. 

[00:44:53] Emma Pickett: So you had a box with lights, you didn't have a blanket with lights. No, no, we had a 

[00:44:56] Beth: box.

We were in rural Wales, so I don't think they even had a blanket in the hospital to be honest. I think if we were at home it probably wouldn't have even been a thing, but because they'd had, you know, they'd done all the bloods and stuff. Yeah. So we were, it felt like we got a bit stuck in the system, and it was the weekend of, I think it was the Queen's Jubilee, so there was something like five bank holidays in a row or something.

It was the one in May. And like the whole hospital basically closed down and there was no one there. So it was like, we were just, I felt like we got really stuck in the hospital, but we finally got out after eight days and got home to Sage, which was, that was really hard because even though Oh gosh, I'd forgotten Sage.

Yeah. All those days away from him as well. Wow. Eight days. And because he wasn't even two, he didn't understand that I'd, you know, couldn't explain to him that I was in hospital and was coming back, uh, and it was COVID. So no, like only Will, my husband, could visit me. No one else could come, even though it was 2022, like it was years after, but the restrictions were still in place.

It was a very hard postpartum time in the hospital and just wanting to leave and couldn't leave and wanting to see Sage and couldn't see Sage. And yeah, so that was really hard. And then, yeah, we got home and I just remember feeling elated to be home. And the recovery was so much better with Jago. It was, you know, it just felt like, yeah, so much better.

And then you use that word healing. Yeah, it was a very healing birth, even though, you know, there was, it was really hard in being in special care. And there's definitely some, you know, when he's ill now, it definitely triggers some of that. And I can see that it was a really difficult time for us, but the actual birth, amazing in lots of ways.

Just getting that feedback and yeah, it was, yeah, I've got lovely feelings about that birth, which is nice. 

[00:46:54] Emma Pickett: That's really good. And tell us about Jacob's early breastfeeding. Yeah, he 

[00:46:58] Beth: fed really well. Um, and then, I remember in the hospital, my husband saying to me, I think he's tongue tied. And I was like, it's really early, like, he's feeding fine, I don't think we need to even worry about that.

And the midwives were like, yeah, you don't need to worry about that right now, like, it's too early. Because he was feeding fine. And in my eyes, like, if he was feeding, you know, I knew about tongue tie, if he was feeding, then I didn't need to worry. But he, unless he was on my boob, he was crying. We got into this, like, vicious cycle of him feeding, projectile vomiting, so not even, like, a little bit, I mean, like, across the room.

And then feeding again, and it was like this, I just felt like I was constantly feeding him. I remember walking around town feeding him, you know, everywhere he went, he was just on my boob all the time. And I think there was part of me that just didn't want to believe that he was still unwell in some way, because we'd just got him home from the hospital, and, um, he was, you know, he was well, and I was just, I didn't want to, yeah, I didn't even want to be near.

Any medical people. I just wanted to be home with my boys and a bit of denial. I think in a way. Um, so you weren't necessarily 

[00:48:17] Emma Pickett: in pain. You didn't necessarily have nipple damage. 

[00:48:19] Beth: No, no, no. I have no nipple damage at all. No. It was just hard work and he was just vomiting. He was vomiting a lot. 

[00:48:28] Emma Pickett: Just another little footnote.

If anyone does have a new baby and they are literally vomiting across the room. We just need to get that checked because there can be quite a serious health condition which contributes to that. But obviously that wasn't GP 

[00:48:42] Beth: to check about the vomiting and he was like, he's fine. Like he checked him over and said he was fine.

Nothing was even spoken about, about the breastfeeding. And then after about, probably about three weeks to a month of that, I just thought something's not right. Like, this isn't, you know, compared to Sage, this is just a totally different experience. Um, I remember speaking to the midwives and you know, because he was feeding well and he was gaining weight and my boobs weren't sore.

I think it just went totally missed. You know, there was no telltale signs of a tongue tie at all. He didn't tick any of the boxes really apart from the vomiting. And then a good friend of mine said, do you think he might be tongue tied? And I was like, at this point, I was like, we just got to find out what's up because this is, you know, this is really hard.

You know, we had, we had a toddler and newborn that just wouldn't stop feeding or vomiting. It was just very difficult. Um, or he was just really, if he wasn't vomiting, he was just upset. He was just in discomfort and crying. Just needing a lot of, a lot of us really, which newborns do anyway, but this was next level, really.

[00:49:50] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah. 

[00:49:51] Beth: Because he was over 12 weeks by this point, NHS wouldn't see him. They just would not. Yeah, for the time being, they just wouldn't see him, so we ended up taking him. Interesting how 

[00:50:00] Emma Pickett: it varies. I mean, in my local area, there's a, there's a NHS clinic that won't see anybody after. Eight weeks. I know of other clinic.

I don't see anyone off. Six weeks. Maybe it was, yeah, maybe it's eight. So random, isn't it? How, oh, well it may not, it could well have been 12, 12 weeks or eight weeks or six weeks. Yeah. 'cause it seems to vary depending on where you live. There's such inconsistency. 

[00:50:15] Beth: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So we ended up taking him to a private, um, tongue tie clinic, and they were like, yeah, he's got a serious tongue tie.

Well, you know, he's tongue tied basically. So we had, um, we had it snipped and like a light switch. He was a different baby. You know, it wasn't, it wasn't like day one, but. We did the exercises and we did, you know, not just get it cut, we, we worked with, you know, his palate and making sure that he was able to use his tongue properly and Yeah, he fed really well from, from then on and felt like things did start to get a bit easier with him after like quite a bumpy breastfeeding journey, I would say.

In the first 

[00:51:00] Emma Pickett: 12 weeks, you've described quite a tough experience and yeah, but, but yet mental health wise, you felt better than you did. Yeah, I did. I 

[00:51:08] Beth: did. Yeah, I did feel loads better. I think I was just so chuffed that I had a better bear, but the rest didn't seem to even matter. You know, I was so focused on getting.

A birth that wasn't so traumatic, I think that, um, yeah, and we were just busy, you know, busy with young kids and life and we ended up moving house again when Jago was three months old. That's when we moved back to Devon. So, our lives were just quite busy and full on and not very settled in a way, so. 

[00:51:40] Emma Pickett: So when you are type 1 diabetic, you presumably have a team that look after you.

Do you have to have regular appointments? 

[00:51:47] Beth: Yeah, you see them at least 

[00:51:49] Emma Pickett: once or twice a year, I would say. Okay, so your team moved back to Devon as opposed to a Welsh team. Any differences in that, in that care? 

[00:51:58] Beth: Um, there is differences in every single hospital. I've moved around a lot and every single hospital is slightly different.

I think when you've been diabetic as long as I have, and have got the mentality that I have about my condition, they just tend to let you get on with it now. I can imagine. Because I probably know more, yeah, I probably know more than they do and I don't mean in an arrogant way. Well, you're going to 

[00:52:20] Emma Pickett: know the kids.

I mean, anyone who's had training. Yeah. who maybe has the conversation about setting up the kit multiple times a week. It's still not the same as that day in day out using the kit. 24 7. Knowing how it works and living with it. And 

[00:52:33] Beth: knowing my body, like I know my body and every single body is different.

One diversity to the next is different and they're not going to know me like I know me. So yeah, I'm quite lucky that they just sort of let me get on with it now. And if I need anything, they're there. And if I need to go for, you know, a checkup or a chat or whatever, then then they're available, but, um, I'm very much would rather just take care of myself basically.

So yeah, that's what works for me. 

[00:53:00] Emma Pickett: So let's jump a little bit and talk about the end of Jago's breastfeeding experience. So luckily you didn't get the aversion around 12 months again. Um, I'm going to ask you a slightly tricky question and if it feels uncomfortable, I want you to say, but, but some mums I talked to who, you know, maybe only fed the first for 12 months and the second one fed for 20 months.

It feels a bit weird to have had those different experiences and some parents think, Oh, I should, they should both be feeding for the same amount of time. Did you have any of those feelings? 

[00:53:28] Beth: Yeah, I did feel a bit like maybe I'd given a bit more to Jago, um, because he fed till he was nearly two. But, I'm the sort of person I'm very much in the moment, and I just thought I can't go back and change that with Sage, and I did what I could at the time, and I did a really good job at that, and Jager was a very different child, he, he suffered quite a lot his first winter with being unwell, he had RSV, which he ended up in hospital with, he had multiple double ear infections, he had infected half a mouth, which he ended up in hospital with, He was quite a sickly, you know, a sickly child really.

So he needed, he needed the breastfeeding. He needed that. And I was able to give that to him. So I try not to compare the two experiences because they are two very, very different children. 

[00:54:22] Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Okay. So you got to the point where Jago was what, 18 months old, 15, 16, 17 months old, and you thought, right, I need to sort of bring things to a close.

So also 

[00:54:32] Beth: with Jago, he, He was a very restless sleeper. He didn't sleep very well, still doesn't sleep that well. And I was sort of looking into reasons why he might be so restless at night and he always needed to sleep on me, always. Very, very close to me. And I took him to the doctors and he had a blood test and it turned out that his iron levels were very low.

I'm glad 

[00:54:56] Emma Pickett: you mentioned that actually because I think a lot of people don't realise. The link between low iron and restless sleep and broken nights. Yeah. Um, I've, cause obviously quite a lot of people contact me because they're having a tough night. Yeah. And don't realize that connection. Um, so I think it's really important to flag that.

I think 

[00:55:11] Beth: I probably had low iron when I was breastfeeding him and he maybe didn't get enough from me or being premature you can, there's more risk of low iron. I don't know if there's a link with diabetes. I haven't really looked into it, but. Yeah. I'm not aware of one. Yeah. So he had this low iron as well.

So that, I think that it was just a very, very different experience with Jago. He just had quite a lot of health things going on and he did need a lot of me, but because he needed to sleep on top of me and he was feeding a lot, the aversions were very, very, very strong with him. He's just a very touchy feely child.

He always needs his hand like on my chest. I'm sure other moms can relate, but he always sort of just needs to be sort of touching me and pulling my skin and. And after 18 months of that, I was just done, to be totally honest, just very, yeah, I felt very overwhelmed with, um, his lack of sleep and his constant need to be, to be on top of me, basically.

Yeah. Um, so I started trying, trying to wean at night, which I remember having like eight days of no sleep, trying to wean him. And it was not a linear process of Jago. I actually ended up weaning him for a week. Then he got ill again, and we were both, like, he was crying because he wanted a feed, and I was crying because I finally managed to stop, but he wanted to feed, and I didn't know what to do, and I remember, like, just feeding him and crying because I felt like I didn't know if I was doing it right.

That's so tough. It was so hard. It was such a hard experience, that, that weenie experience with Jago. So with the night weaning 

[00:56:54] Emma Pickett: you were still co sleeping, but just not letting him attach. Did you go, are you someone that tried to do shorter feeds? Did you just go no, I'm not going to sleep for four hours?

What kind of techniques 

[00:57:05] Beth: did you use? I tried it all. I tried the counting down. I tried, um You know, like rubbing his back whilst feeding and then trying to stop the feed a little bit early, not letting him fall asleep on the boob, just letting my husband do the nights. We, I think we probably tried every single technique in the book.

I can't even remember what worked in the end. It's It was such a process. When you're doing five things at 

[00:57:29] Emma Pickett: once, you can't always tell what works and what can't You don't even necessarily know. But in the end, he wasn't feeding at night and was able to lie next to you, not on you. And you were able to get a bit more sleep.

And what about your daytime weaning? What do you remember about that? 

[00:57:45] Beth: I think daytime weaning actually ended up going first because I was able to distract him. And I think because of the low iron, and the restlessness, and not being able to settle, and not being able to sleep, I think the daytimes were just easier, because, you know, he was a busy toddler, and I could distract him with things, so.

In the end, the day, the day went first, actually, the day reading went first. And then we managed to do the night and it was just the before bed. And then we finally, I can't even remember, it was such a long process, we finally got it to stop. And it did, I remember looking back and it took five months. 

[00:58:24] Emma Pickett: So five months from the beginning of thinking I want to wean to not breastfeeding at all.

Yeah. And how much of that was about the night weaning? I want to, so there's some people listening. Probably, probably 

[00:58:38] Beth: a good couple of months of that 

[00:58:39] Emma Pickett: I would say 

[00:58:40] Beth: was 

[00:58:42] Emma Pickett: And that was because he was still waking and getting upset and, and not resettling and you were having to think, Oh, I'm just going to have to save him.

[00:58:50] Beth: Yeah. And also really needing some sleep because, you know, by that point you're back at work. I had another child to look after and not sleeping and diabetes is really hard. Yeah. Not sleeping affects your blood sugars. So. I was getting pretty, pretty desperate by this point and sometimes I would just feed him because I just, I just needed to get him to sleep and he just would not settle.

He just would not. He wouldn't be necessarily crying or upset, but he would just be totally restless and would not drop down into that deep sleep, which I think is the iron. I think it's the low iron that really causes that. 

[00:59:27] Emma Pickett: Yeah. No, we know that that is a connection for sure. And it completely makes sense.

If you haven't got the energy to be able to stay awake, offer other techniques, sit with a child who's not falling asleep, you're going to break, you know, you're going to have to have times where you think, you know what, I'm just going to have to feed tonight. I'm going to have to feed tomorrow night. I cannot, I don't have the capacity to actively continue weaning.

[00:59:49] Beth: And I try 

[00:59:49] Emma Pickett: to keep 

[00:59:50] Beth: it consistent but Oh, it was just so hard. It was just really hard and that's when I reached out to you and got some extra support and that's when, yeah, we finally, we finally managed to stop. When 

[01:00:02] Emma Pickett: was that week, that week when you didn't breastfeed at all and then you restarted? That was around 

[01:00:07] Beth: Christmas time.

Yeah, it was around Christmas and that's when he had hand, foot and mouth, which I didn't realise had got infected and he was very, very unwell. And we had to go into hospital and I just, he just wanted a feed. And you, and you 

[01:00:20] Emma Pickett: carried on breastfeeding through that time he was in hospital and after that. So you were carried, you carried on for quite a few more weeks before you finally stopped again.

And do you remember that last feed? 

[01:00:31] Beth: No, no, I think I was just, I think I was just done with it by then, that I, you know, with Sage I really made an effort to remember it, but. With Jago, it was just such a different experience. It was lightened, you know, lightened day from what had happened with Sage's weaning journey.

Um, and I don't know if it was because he was older and because of the, you know, the experience we had when he was poorly and his health challenges. It was a real, real comfort for Jago. It was a real, you know, emotional tie, you know, obviously it was. is real comfort. So to, to, you know, find other things that he could find comfort in, it just took some time.

It just, for both of us, I think, yeah, it did take some time. 

[01:01:23] Emma Pickett: And when you did stop, did he carry on asking? Was there, there's still that sort of pull for 

[01:01:28] Beth: him? He did for a little bit, but it wasn't too bad. It, because I think we did it so gradually that, yeah, it wasn't like he was. Yeah, by the end, yeah, he just, he just knew as well.

I think he knew that I'd really really had enough by then. I'd given it everything that I had and all my, all my patience and energy and Yeah. And I, you know, people say, why didn't you just stop? And it was like, well, I did just stop with Sage. I do have that ability in me to just stop, but I couldn't with Jago because he just, he just needed it so much.

[01:02:09] Emma Pickett: Well, also, if he's not going back to sleep, I mean, if he's a, if he's, if you've got that restlessness at night, stopping just means you're lying next to someone tossing and turning and not going back to sleep anyway. I mean, or even, you know, even fully awake and sitting up and asking to watch telly. I mean, it's.

The idea that stopping is magically going to get a child to deeply sleep next to you is just not the reality. 

[01:02:29] Beth: I've spent many a night sat up with him watching telly, you know, many a night, broken sleep, months and months of, and his sleep is, it is better now. It's taken a long time though, you know, it's probably nearly, almost a year later and he's, yeah, it's better, but it's, it's, It's not, quitting breastfeeding is not a magic wand by any means, I think, with sleep.

[01:02:52] Emma Pickett: When you were going through that really tough time of, you know, long period of night weaning and broken nights, you were still having to work and do classes and parental support during the day. Yeah. Is there anything that helped you? I'm just wondering, you know, you talked before about your, you know, your husband looking after you.

How did he try and support you in those moments? What 

[01:03:13] Beth: kind of role did he 

[01:03:13] Emma Pickett: have? So 

[01:03:13] Beth: what, so he would get up early. Because Jago has always been an early waker as well, just to, you know, add insult. He's always up between sort of around about five. So he would often get up with him and I would go back to bed and get a couple of hours.

Um, and then whenever my husband was off work, you know, I would catch up on sleep as much as I could, but it was hard. It was really, really hard, that lack of sleep torture, I would say, actually. Yeah. Yeah. 

[01:03:42] Emma Pickett: You must be an amazing doula Beth, I have to say, you've, you've been through so many different experiences.

I ticked so many boxes. You do. You tick a lot of the boxes and the things that people can go through in terms of pregnancy and birth and postnatally and emotionally and, you know, physically, you just went through so many things. A lot of things. I 

[01:04:00] Beth: think maybe that's part of why I've been through so much is because I've now got the capacity to help lots of other women in lots of different situations, which.

Yeah, it's quite an unusual thing, I think. 

[01:04:13] Emma Pickett: Thank you so much for sharing your stories today. I really appreciate it and, um, I'm really grateful and, uh, yeah, it's just really special to hear, um, you know, your entire journey and, um, I'm very honoured that you shared that with us today. Thanks. Thank you, Beth.

Is there anything we haven't talked about that you wanted to make sure we covered or anything you'd like to say towards the end? I just 

[01:04:31] Beth: wanted to say, if any other type 1 diabetic women are listening, just don't let it hold you back. If you really do want to breastfeed, then reach out to other women, reach out to your healthcare team, lean on your friends and family, get the support.

But if you want to do it, then I really believe that, um, with the right support, you can do it. 

[01:04:53] Emma Pickett: Thank you for that. And from describing your stories, your diabetes was not a barrier to your breastfeeding. It was everything else actually. You had other barriers. You had lots of other stuff going on, but it wasn't your diabetes that it was your barrier.

That's, that's that. Yeah, that's for sure. Thank you, Beth. Really appreciate it.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett, IBCLC and on Twitter at makesmilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.