Francesca’s story - finding attachment parenting, breastfeeding twins and staying strong

Trigger warning - Listeners who would prefer not to hear discussion of maternal suicide should skip from 44:48-46:00 minutes.

This episode contains some conversational swearing.

Francesca’s inspirational story is one of determination, positivity and courage. Led by attachment parenting philosophy, she tandem fed her twins, while also bringing up her 3 year old daughter, escaping a coercive relationship, and building her own business. Our conversation touches on PCOS, coercive control, breastfeeding with implants, twin grief and much more.

Francesca is @francescaamber on instagram and you can find out more about her podcast at @lawofattractionchangedmylife 

My new book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

Mentioned in this episode - 

The Continuum Concept https://continuumconcept.org/

When the Bough Breaks documentary https://www.amazon.co.uk/When-Bough-Breaks-Brooke-Shields/dp/B06XDN3PL1

Donations to support the work of Mums in Need can be given here https://www.mumsinneed.com/

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This Transcript is AI generated.

[00:00:00] Emma Pickett: I'm Emma Pickett and I'm a Lactation Consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time because I was breastfeeding my own two children and now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end and I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end too.

Join me for conversations on how breastfeeding Breastfeeding is amazing and also sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly at that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. Thank you very much for joining me for today's episode.

I am super excited to be looking at Francesca Amber, who is Number one podcaster of a self development podcast in the UK. Is that, is that accurate? That's what I'm seeing when I look online. You're also a best selling author. Um, your podcast is called Law of Attraction Changed My Life, which is about manifesting, which I'm really curious to talk about in the context of breastfeeding and reaching breastfeeding goals.

And you, you talk really honestly about your parenting and about your life around, um, you know, your relationships. And I'm just so excited to talk to you about your breastfeeding journey because you breastfed twins, which is not the experience of everybody. You're also breastfed having been diagnosed with PCOS, which is also really important to talk about.

And thank you so much for joining me for today. I'm really honoured to be talking to you. Me too. I 

[00:01:35] Francesca: like any opportunity that is not talking about the law of attraction. If anyone asks me on a podcast, it's like when we met the other week at an event and I found out you had a breastfeeding podcast, I was like, oh man, I love talking about breastfeeding.

[00:01:49] Emma Pickett: I'm so passionate about it. I love it. Oh, good, good. Well, you're in the right place. Um, I'm not going to talk about manifesting in great, in great depth, because you talk about that on your own podcast. You've got more than 200 episodes talking about it. But I do think there's, there's an interesting overlap with breastfeeding.

So there's this thing in the world of breastfeeding, which is called self efficacy. Which is about believing you can make it work. So there are clever academic y people that are out there studying self efficacy. I can't even say it properly, let alone understand it. Um, you know, if we meet people antinatally, if they've got that self belief that breastfeeding will work, then quite often it is going to happen.

Um, and it's much more likely to happen. And before we talk about your breastfeeding, I have to ask you about your twin girl's gender. And just as an example of the manifesting story, tell us about what happened with their gender when you were, when you had the scan and were told that you were going to have two boys.

What happened next? 

[00:02:44] Francesca: So this is wild and it's the only story that I've ever like said that people react very negatively to I get negative comments, but I think that's because people are still very triggered by gender preference and gender disappointment. So growing up, we had a rather unfortunate family history where a lot of baby boys died.

They either died at birth. My mom's brother died at 20. They have muscular dystrophy. So we believed growing up, my sister and I, that we were unable to have boys. We were always told, if you have a boy, you'll have to have an abortion, which is quite a wild thing to hear growing up, right? Oh gosh, that's some 

[00:03:19] Emma Pickett: deep family trauma going on there, isn't it?

It is. Like 

[00:03:22] Francesca: our brother died, our uncle died. And so thank God, thank God for older sisters. My sister was the first to have children and she went and had proper, uh, genealogy with my mother and my grandmother. And they all went and got tested. And basically it was just a little bit of folklore, a little bit of bad luck.

These baby boys had died for various reasons. It was fluke. It was whatever. And so we could have boys, but growing up hearing this your whole life. That really like, it hits you. And so I just always wanted girls. My first daughter was a girl. I got divorced from her dad and I found myself a single parent alone with her.

And I desperately didn't want an only child. My sister is my best friend. I really wanted her to have a sister as well. And so when I found out I was pregnant. And that I was having twins. I was absolutely devastated because I actually broke up with their dad too. I was single again. And then I found out I was having two babies.

I was like, Oh my God. And so I needed to know the gender. I needed to get some kind of control back. And I was like, is this going to be fine? She's going to have two sisters. Went and had that harmony test now that most people seem to have. And. The lady called me and she said, great news. Your babies have no syndromes, no illnesses.

You're, you're all fine and congratulations. You're having boys. And I was like, Oh, and I went and had a quite literal nervous breakdown for like a full 24 hours. I think. When you've had such a strong, vivid vision for your life, and then something throws you a curve ball, and it wasn't what I'd envisaged at all.

And I was just so depressed. My dad came around and he's like, it'd be great. You can go and do cricket matches and football matches. And I was like, this is making it worse. 

[00:05:02] Emma Pickett: This is making it so much worse. Christie Taylor The bloody hell, who wants to watch a cricket match? 

[00:05:06] Francesca: But you know what? My sister's got three boys and our existences are so different.

She spends her life next to a football pitch. She hates every minute. I'm going to dancing shows. I'm going to cheerleading next week. It's a whole different existence. Let me tell you. Um, and so I fully cried for a full 24 hours and this was during the beginning of the lockdown as well. And I just remember sitting across the table from my little three year old daughter and I was crying and I just thought this is horrible for her.

Like she's seeing her mom depressed, upset. And I thought, no, I'm going to change this right now. So I sat in my dining room table. And I got out a piece of paper and I wrote down everything I was thankful for. I'm so thankful I already have a daughter. I'm so thankful that my babies are healthy. I don't, they don't have any syndromes or anything.

I'm so thankful that I can get pregnant. I'm so thankful I have a home. All these things. And I took her upstairs, gave her a bath, put her to bed. The whole process took about two hours. I came downstairs and I had 14 missed calls. Slightly higher than average, I would say. And so I called this number back and it was the lady from the Harmony, like the private clinic.

And she was like, I'm so, so sorry. This has never happened before. My mom is very ill with cancer at the moment. My head's not in the right place anyway. I gave you the wrong results. you're having twin girls. Well, I felt like I'd won the lottery because in that moment I was like, number one, everything I believe in the law of attraction, creating your own reality absolutely works.

And number two, the, the vision that I wanted my, you know, all my daughters together, it was like, it 

[00:06:37] Emma Pickett: was a dream come true. And so. Wow. I bet you bet you did some dancing on the tables then and woke up your daughter. I imagine that must have been a moment. It was amazing. I mean, I know what you mean about people getting triggered by the concept of gender disappointment.

It's a really hard conversation to have, isn't it? Honestly and openly, but I really appreciate you being open about that. And I don't want to grill you about the manifesting thing, because that's, as you say, there's a whole other podcast about that, I'm just curious, is there a spiritual dimension to that?

Do you believe that there is a greater power that's making that change for you? How, how would you verbalize that? 

[00:07:11] Francesca: Definitely. So I think. Anyone that starts out with the law of attraction, they think, okay, yes, I'm asking the universe, but it's a very, um, self centered thing. Like you're creating things, you're making things happen in your life.

And I think as you go along this journey of manifestation, you soon realize that you are co creating with something. Now, I don't particularly agree with organized religion. I think it's wild that people can put a face and a name. you know, Jesus, Allah, whoever it might be. I think that's wild that you're putting a man's name and face to this, this entity that none of us can even fathom.

And so I will sit here and say, I don't know. I don't know what the hell it is. I just call it, you know, the universe. I don't know who it is. I'm not saying that it's black or white or Asian or a man or a woman. I think it's more than that. It's more than we can imagine. And so I'm quite comfortable with not knowing what it is, but I know that it guides me and protects me and, and helps me.

So. That's 

[00:08:06] Emma Pickett: all I need to know. Definitely helps you, that's for sure, looking at your book sales and your podcast downloads and you know, you're absolutely making this work 100 percent and, and obviously connecting with a lot of people. But a lot of that is about your honest talking and how you talk about yourself so openly and honestly and I'm really excited to hear about your breastfeeding journeys.

Your older daughter then, Bohemia, she's now eight. How did breastfeeding go with her? What was her feeding journey? Oh, what a light 

[00:08:33] Francesca: of my life that child is. She's like my perfect child. So, when I got pregnant the first time, I was, I was not like a very maternal person and I didn't know what the hell I was doing.

And my sister gave me a Gina Ford book. 

[00:08:48] Emma Pickett: Right. Well, that's it. Now I'm just going to press stop on the podcast recording. This 

[00:08:52] Francesca: is all you need to know. And I read it and I was like, what on earth is this? Now, I think I have dyscalculia or something ADHD, but the idea of these timings and you've got to, you've got to give eight ounces at this time.

And you've got to do, I looked at it and I just if this is what having a baby is, I'm done. I don't want this anymore. And so I don't know how I found it. Isn't it funny? Like some of the biggest things that change your life, you look back and you don't know how you found them. But I discovered a book called The Continuum Concept.

[00:09:26] Emma Pickett: Oh, wow. That's massive. Do you love it? Well, I mean, that is the book that's the exact opposite of Gina Ford. If there was a boxing match, it would be Gina Ford versus The Continuum Concept. They are so different in terms of their messaging, aren't they? So for anyone who doesn't know. Tell everyone what the continuing concept is basically about.

It's the best 

[00:09:42] Francesca: book you'll ever read. Do you know what? I get it for every pregnant woman I know, whether they want it or not. And it's about a lady called Jean. It is Jean, right? She goes into the South American. She's an 

[00:09:52] Emma Pickett: anthropologist. She's an anthropologist. 

[00:09:54] Francesca: So she is literally dedicating her life to the study of humans.

And she goes into South America and she lives with these tribes, not just for a year. She is committed long term. She lives there for many, many years. And she discovers that the baby's there. are raised communally by a tribe of women and that the babies don't cry. The babies do not cry. They don't have the problems that our babies here in the Western world, the modern world have.

And she discovers it's because they're breastfed, they co sleep, they baby wear, they are mothered by the community and basically everyone is living a happy life. And so I read this book and I was just like, wow. This, this is how I'm going to raise my daughter. 

[00:10:37] Emma Pickett: Wow. That is amazing how that came into your world that, cause that is not a typical, you know, WH Smith's book.

I mean, it's not what you get on your baby shower. So Jean, I can't, if I'm saying her name right, Lidloff, L I D L I E D L O F F it's an old, it's an old book. It's 1975. So it's been knocking around a while. And the basic message is if you follow your gut instinct and think of us as like other animals. What do we do naturally and we hold our babies we baby where we don't really put them down We breastfeed very naturally and, and instinctively without worrying about the clock.

And also we give them knives. I don't know if that's a bit of a range really. So these like three year olds and two year olds are like cutting stuff up with sharp knives. Anyway, but that's also about trusting little people and trusting that they are individuals and respecting them as individuals in the process.

So, and modern lifestyles have disconnected us from all those gut instincts that make us, um, More effective parents. And if we don't reconnect with those breastfeeding is extra hard, sleeping is extra hard because we're constantly trying to push our babies away from us when they want to be super close.

So yeah, I'm, I'm so amazed that you came across that book because that is the, as I said, the opposite of Gina Ford. Gina Ford's all about control. And separating ourselves and not having our lives affected by our babies. And, and we can create these little people that sleep for 12 hours. And the continuum concept is don't be daft.

Of course you can't because babies aren't designed to sleep for 12 hours. You have to have them close to you and everyone will be fine if you do. They're so different. How'd your sister follow Gina Ford? Was that her background? So 

[00:12:08] Francesca: interestingly, my sister has been my biggest breastfeeding, uh, support.

She's been incredible, but everything else, she didn't co sleep. She didn't baby wear. She didn't. So in a way, I kind of, as the younger sister kind of taught her those ways, but with breastfeeding, she was a hundred percent on board. But I think she, she was the first woman in our family, our generation of family to have children.

And I think you kind of do it the way that you're told and this was kind of in the era of like Supernanny and Gina Ford and that's just what she thought you had to do. And so I took that book and I respectfully threw it back in her face and I said, no Gina Ford is not for me. And um, yeah, and we've kind of like taught each other in a way.

[00:12:53] Emma Pickett: Oh, that's the really special that you've kind of had that exchange of ideas. And obviously it's great actually to hear that somebody who doesn't baby where it doesn't co sleep can make breastfeeding work because I think. You sometimes get this message on social media that you've got to tick all these boxes and if you don't tick all these boxes breastfeeding is going to fail and that really isn't true at all.

So, you read the continuing concept when you're pregnant? 

[00:13:13] Francesca: Yes. So, I read that when I was pregnant and it just absolutely resonated with me. I think the part of it that resonated the most was I realized that when you get pregnant, I don't know about for you, but for me, I really felt like, Oh, I'm just an animal.

Like I thought all this time I was a human and I'm not. I'm just an animal. And I think there's nothing like pregnancy and birth and breastfeeding to make you realize, like, we're all just mammals. That's, that's all we are. And it just made me feel like, wow, I just need to trust myself and I don't need some old white man in a book to tell me how to raise my child.

Like I know best. And I had such a strong self belief in that from the start. I don't know. I don't know how, but I just did. And I was like, this is how I'm going to raise my child. And it worked. She was a very easy baby, but I look back and I think, was she an easy baby? Because she was mothered from the start, exactly how I felt confident to do it.

I think in anything in life, if you don't feel confident in it, you kind of second guess yourself and you still go, Oh, well, it's like when my twins asked me, can I have this, can I have this? And I say no. And then I think, Oh, well, actually, why am I saying no? Oh, well, yes, you can. If you feel absolutely confident of like.

No, this is what I believe. I think the baby then has confidence in you. And yeah, I'm very proud of the way that I raised her. And I'm very grateful that my ex husband allowed me to. He never once questioned, that sounds crazy, doesn't it? Allowed me to, but he never once questioned. the fact that she shared the bed with us.

He never once questioned that I would breastfeed her exclusively and that I didn't want to bottle feed her. He never questioned that she was better off being wrapped rather than being in a push chair. His mother on the other hand, she got very angry that she couldn't push around in a push chair and that she was attached to me, but you know, she's an ex mother in law for a reason.

But um, no, they, they all kind of just went along with it and trust. I think because I was so confident in it, they just trusted it as well and said, yeah. 

[00:15:08] Emma Pickett: Okay. So it was obviously a trust of you, wasn't it? That was the bottom line. He trusted you to make those decisions. And I know you would, you were demonstrating every day it was working.

I mean, we talk about what makes an easy baby and that sort of chicken and egg thing, but actually we do know that when babies are held, they've got, we've got reduced crying. So baby wearing reduces crying. And we know that, you know, the continuing concept describes how when children are in close contact with us and fed responsibly.

We've got less tears. I mean, that is the reality. We've probably got improved positioning attachment, which means reduced colic and wind issues. So it all kind of comes full circle and gets to that positive place. And. You mentioned that you, you were diagnosed with PCOS. Was that before you had bohemia?

Was that? Yes. Yeah. And the, but that didn't seem to affect your breastfeeding journey. Cause for some people it does, but not necessarily for you. No, I didn't even know that that was a link. 

[00:15:58] Francesca: No. 

[00:15:58] Emma Pickett: PCOS is obviously an umbrella term that refers to lots of different types of conditions and lots of different symptoms, but it looks like about a third of mums with PCOS do have milk production problems.

Um, and maybe struggle to produce a full milk supply and then another third produce too much milk. So it's a, so you can see there's a massive umbrella of experiences. But it doesn't sound like that was your issue at all, which is brilliant. And obviously you conceived. So that was, that was brilliant as well.

How did Bohemia's breastfeeding journey come to an end? Uh, well, 

[00:16:28] Francesca: all three of my children, unfortunately, about a year and a half, they would have to go and spend time with their dad, which obviously amazing. They needed to. But it wasn't sustainable because they would be away either all day or overnight.

And it just, it got to the point with Beau, she would come back off the train. And as soon as you got in the car, she would be feeding constantly. And, and it was just, It wasn't, it wasn't really fair. So every, each time, both times, it was really out of my control, 

[00:16:57] Emma Pickett: which is sad. That's actually really helpful to think about.

Cause I know that's a lot of people are struggling with that issue. You know, if they're not living with their, the father of their children. And when visitation starts to happen will vary at different ages and when overnight start to happen. And actually the 18 months before you had to have long periods of separation is actually a positive, not everyone has that experience.

Some people are told. even from six months that their children should be having overnights, which is not supportive of breastfeeding at all. No, 

[00:17:25] Francesca: that is actually the reason why with my twins, they actually didn't see their dad until they were over a year old, because when they were a couple of weeks old, I think they were a week old, but they were two weeks premature.

He wanted to just take them out of the home. take them out of the house and go driving with them and I was like, they're premature babies and they're breastfed and they're twins, so like, they quite literally can't be parted from me. And I think as a man who had no experience of breastfeeding. He just thought that that was me being controlling and saying, these babies can't leave my house.

And at the time I felt like it was best to prioritize that breastfeeding. It's like, if you can't understand that, then this can't work. Like they cannot be parted from me. And I'm proud of myself for standing strong on that. But it's so sad because his inability to, to understand the basic mechanics of breastfeeding meant that he didn't see them until they were 

[00:18:22] Emma Pickett: over a year old.

That is really sad. That is then, as you say, that's, that's to do with his struggle there and him not fully joining the dots. So, so you'd separated from him while you're pregnant. So when you were born, you were already separated. That's a lot of pressure. I mean, pregnancy with twins and dealing with a relationship breakdown and worrying about visitation and you know, when they're just, you know, a week old or two weeks old, you said having to have that kind of conversation.

Most people aren't capable of putting socks on at that point. So that's, that's a lot to contend with. Did you get support from like mediation or a legal team, or were you just having this conversation between the two of you? No. In 

[00:19:00] Francesca: fact, just before I started this podcast, I had a call with a charity called Mums in Need, which help women in Sheffield at the moment, but they're hoping to take it nationwide.

They help women with post separation, coercive control and emotional abuse. And when I tried to seek help, I was basically told. If it's not physical violence, there's nothing we can do to help you. And so, yeah, as a single mum to three children with no financial support, I was legally threatened. I had to legally blonde style be my own, be my own lawyer.

Um, with two newborns breastfeeding, and that was the hardest time of my life. Very, very dark period. Wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. And so now really through my podcast, a lot of women follow my podcast. 98 percent women. I have a lot of mums. I have a lot of mums that are single. And I think that sometimes when you have no control over the outside circumstances, you can't control what these crazy people are trying to do if they're trying to, you know, do whatever, but you can control your own inner world and you can control how you respond to things and, and bettering your own mindset, which will in turn better your own life.

And really that's sometimes the only thing we can do is focus inward. At that time in my life, I had no control. It, we were in a lockdown. I lost my business. I lost my only income. I was being threatened. I had no support and we were in isolation, which we always tell new mums, don't isolate yourself, get out the house, meet other people.

Well, I. And so many other women couldn't do that. You were told, stay in your house. Don't talk to anyone. If you sit on a bench with someone, we're going to take you to prison. Do you know what I mean? That's literally what we were told, which is crazy. Um, and so the only way I could get through that time was to focus on something different and for me, that was focusing on my podcast.

People always say to me, we don't know how you did it. Like, how did you, I came back to recording like four days after they were born. And I recorded consistently throughout that period. And the truth is. So I'm gonna cry. The truth is, is that I needed to escape that reality. That reality was so hard, and I did not bond with those babies.

I've been very honest about this on my, um, on my own channels and stuff. I did not bond with those babies at all. My first daughter, it was love at first sight. Those babies, I think, because there was two of them. I think when you're an attachment parent, it is very, very difficult to, to mother two babies the way that you want to.

[00:21:32] Emma Pickett: Yeah. 

[00:21:32] Francesca: And the other part of it was that until that legal issue had been resolved, there was a lot of threats and I was convinced they weren't mine. I was convinced they were going to be taken away. There were like threats of like accusations of child abuse and child neglect. And thankfully, when I went to court, it was all resolved and it was all like, okay, no, everything's fine.

But when you are in that matrescence phase and your hormones are all over the place and you are being coercively controlled and you're receiving hundreds of messages a day, accusing you of all sorts, you go to a dark place. And so for me, for that first year, what really made me successful is I worked so hard on my business to disassociate from what was going on in my life.

And it's crazy, but the day that I went to court, I came home and it's almost like I saw them for the first time and I was able to love them for the first time and I, I went and picked them up and I was like, you are my babies. It's, it's wild. And so now, yeah, my goal is just to help as many other women as I can.

through my book that I'm writing, which is for mums through working with mums in need and just helping women with their mindset for free. You know, you can do it yourself. And, um, yeah, that's 

[00:22:53] Emma Pickett: just what I'm trying to do. Yeah. Gosh, that's, that was really powerful. Thank you, Francesca. I'll make sure we put mums in need in the show notes and we can definitely make sure people know they exist because that's such an important, important work that they're doing.

I mean, I know there are some people listening to this who absolutely will relate to the not bonding thing. Mums of singletons and mums of twins, and I know there are also lots of people who will relate to if you were an attachment parent first time around and then you know you're having multiples, that is scary.

It's horrible. How am I going to breastfeed these two? Will I be able to give them the same experience? They're going to have to be left with their needs unmet in a way that doesn't feel natural to me. And that is a, that is a scary feeling. I'm so sorry that you had that difficult time and I'm so sorry that you dealt with, um, you know, that kind of coercive control issue and, and harassment.

It just sounds so grim and, and I can just imagine you coming home from the, from the court and just seeing them in a different way because you finally gave, just gave yourself freedom to feel those feelings and before you had that sort of self protection thing going on. Woof. That was powerful. Thank you, Francesca.

Tell me a bit about when you're pregnant with twins, you absolutely knew you were going to breastfeed, did you? No question. 

[00:24:01] Francesca: Absolutely. So I've never given myself any other option. I have never looked up how to sterilize a bottle. I don't know how to mix formula. I'm a strong believer of like never having formula in your house, just in case.

So for me, the process of switching to formula would take more brain power than just, you know, like, plowing on through. I don't often lose a lot of followers on Instagram, but when I do, it's because I've posted saying breastfeeding is totally possible. It's a choice. It's a choice we make. I think, is it 1 percent of women can't breastfeed?

[00:24:40] Emma Pickett: Yeah, so we don't, we don't know exactly because it's hard to do the studies, but maybe 5 percent in some studies, something like that. Um, for lots of different complicated reasons, like, you know, breasts not developing or hormonal disruption, but let's say roughly 5%. So maybe 95 percent can. Yeah. Okay. So 

[00:24:58] Francesca: I just felt like for me, it was a choice like to just, to make it happen.

Like it was very, very unlikely that I physically wouldn't be able to, I have breast implants That didn't stop anything. I had mastitis many times, um, the babies were premature, the twins and, and tandem feeding too, Jesus Christ, that is a whole different world, um, but I just felt like it's not an option, like it just was not an option for it to not work, so like I said, I didn't have any formula in the house, I didn't even look up how you would give a baby formula, I still to this day, I have three children, I'd have no idea how you mix that or sterilize it or what you do, And so I just always wanted that to be the harder option because it 

[00:25:43] Emma Pickett: really mattered to me.

It was important. I mean, I can obviously that positive experience you had with your first daughter helped you to realize breastfeeding can absolutely work and you knew your body could do it and you knew the positive impact. Um, but actually when it comes to twins, I think it is really helpful to remember that formula feeding twins is, is bloody hard work.

Not only the, the sterilizing, the washing, they're getting the bottles in the middle of the night. As a single mom to exclusively formula feed twins, that is adding an enormous level of effort and cost as well. I mean, you know, talking a lot of money to, to, you know, buy the formula and buy the bottle. So.

Making breastfeeding work isn't necessarily, you know, some kind of airy, fairy, hippie decision. It's a very practical decision of what makes life easier when you're parenting twins as a single mum. 

[00:26:29] Francesca: You're right, and this, you've got to remember, this was in the lockdown where formula was not available.

People were buying all the formula on the shelves and babies were going hungry because there was no formula. So we very much were in a worldwide pandemic. It was not available. And for me, like you say, as a single mom that was already absolutely stretched to the limit financially, time wise, energy wise, it was just not something that I was willing to, um, to change.

And that is one of the things, um, that their dad asked as well is he said, well, can't you just express and give me a bottle and then I'll take them for a few hours. And I was like, I don't think you understand. I've only, I've got two tits and two babies. Like for me to be able to express, I'd have to get so much more milk and then my supply would go up.

So with them, they never ever had it from a bottle. It was never exposed. I simply didn't have the capacity. There was a supply and demand and that was it, and that's the only way I could get through it. 

[00:27:27] Emma Pickett: A little advert, just to say that you can buy my four books online. You've Got It In You, A Positive Guide To Breastfeeding is 99p as an e book, and that's aimed at expectant and new parents.

The Breast Book, published by Pinter and Martin, is a guide for 9 to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding. For a 10 percent discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley Press, that's uk.

jkp. com and use the code MMPE10. Makes milk, pick it, Emma, 10. Thanks.

So you've got two beautiful girls, Reva and Laveau, am I saying their names correctly? Yes. Um, tell me about their birth. Sounds like you got quite far into your pregnancy, you're talking about them only being a couple of weeks early. Yeah, 36 and a half weeks they were. Okay, for twins that's, that's good, good going.

I know I make it sound like, well done Francesca for holding them in your uterus for 36 plus weeks. But obviously that wasn't your control and people who have babies earlier, not because they've done anything different, but you had decently sized babies then, not teeny weeny tiny ones. So 

[00:28:48] Francesca: Laveau was six pounds eight, which is wild for a twin that is premature.

Wowzers, yeah. Yeah. And the other one was five and a half pounds. They were, it was so painful. I don't think it's natural for us to have two babies in our bodies at once. It was the most painful, horrible experience of my life. I was so uncomfortable. Um, I went and did a newborn, not a newborn, uh, a maternity photo shoot.

And the photographer got me to lift up my three year old over my bump, which looking back was not a great idea and my waters broke. Oh my god, in the photo shoot? Yes, so I had to You must have scared the hell out of the photographer. He thought, oh my god, here comes the lawsuit. It was terrifying. Well, literally, I had instant contractions and I had them three hours later.

Oh my god, that's terrifying. Yeah, it was insane. But no, the twin pregnancy was one of the hardest things I've ever done. ever done. Wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. Do 

[00:29:41] Emma Pickett: you mind me asking you about implants? Just a little bit. I think it's, it's really helpful to talk about that because people assume if you've had any breast surgery, breastfeeding is going to be a challenge, but the way implants can be put in doesn't have to mean any nerve disruption.

It doesn't have to affect the nipple or the areola at all. It's a very different story from having a reduction surgery, which is much more likely to impact on your breastfeeding. But it can sometimes mean more discomfort when engorgement happens depending on whether they're behind the muscle or in front of the muscle.

Did you have, so I guess you don't know what would have happened if you hadn't have had them, but did you feel breastfeeding was more uncomfortable, were your breasts uncomfortable, did you have engorgement? Um, I do remember getting 

[00:30:21] Francesca: an electric toothbrush out a couple of times and having to like massage them with an electric toothbrush because I think it's just when that milk first comes in that, that is horrible, isn't it?

Like that feeling and it being rock hard, that, that is, it curls my toes even thinking about it now. But I guess. I don't know what it's like without, I had them under the muscle. So there's no disruption of anything, you know, cause it's under 

[00:30:43] Emma Pickett: my muscle. Wouldn't affect breast tissue at all then. That's unlikely to have any problems.

And only other one other thing, just to flag up, and I'm not asking you to draw me a picture of your breasts before you had your surgeries, but sometimes. People who've had surgery had it because they didn't have much glandular tissue or they may have had what we call hyperplasia or insufficient glandular tissue.

So, so depending on what your breast shape was like before your implant, that might sometimes affect your breastfeeding success. But if you're going from, you know, let's say a B cup to a D cup and your breast tissue was rounded and there wasn't any markers for insufficient glandular tissue. There's no reason at all why it would impact on your breastfeeding journey.

And obviously you're the living proof of that. It didn't for you. Being a single mum, you've got, what, a four year old, five year old, two newborns. Twins who were a little bit premature. What was your support network? I mean, this is lockdown. Was anyone able to be your support network? 

[00:31:35] Francesca: Well, legally, no. I was supposed to just be on my own.

I think maybe bubbles came in. I definitely broke the law. I definitely went to see my sister. I don't think anyone would blame you for that, I have to say. Yeah, do you know what? Fuck you, Boris, with your parties. Like, I don't give a shit. My sister though was paranoid and she made me wee in the garden like a dog at like nine months pregnant with twins and I'll never let her forget that.

So yeah, weeing in the garden, sitting outside, had my own cup, I wasn't allowed to touch anyone. But then after they were born, my sister was, do you know what, I keep saying to her like, She needs to be a lactation consultant. She was the biggest support ever. And actually when I see women giving up on breastfeeding, I think, do you know what, without her, I maybe would have done as well.

She came over and saved my life genuinely. So when the babies were about. Three days old. This was awful as well. I don't know why I did this. I had to up sticks and go and move in with my mom and her boyfriend, who I don't really get on with, and my nan, um, because I needed that support. I'd had a cesarean, so I couldn't lift things.

I couldn't drive. I couldn't do anything. And looking back, I really should have been like, mom, you need to come to me. Someone needs to come to my house. I need to be in my own home. But no, no, we all were like traveling gypsies and we went there. And, um, I think about three nights after they were born, I was in so much pain, uh, mastitis.

My nipples were so cracked and bleeding. And at 10 o'clock at night, I just phoned my sister. My mom was like, Nushka, you've got to come around here. And she came around with these like five year old, very well used nipple shields in a cup and an electric toothbrush, like massager type thing. And something else, I can't remember, three things, it was, I think it was like coconut oil or something.

Was it gold, frankincense or myrrh or anything? Yes! She, she literally was like, yeah. And um, she came over and she held the other baby whilst I fed one baby, she would hold the other one. They changed the nappies for me. She got me these nipple shields, which I'd never, like, I didn't know what nipple shields were.

I hadn't ever had to use them with Bohemia. And just having that shield, just to let my nipples recover, and having someone there that had done it, had been through it, absolutely saved me. You know, my mum didn't breastfeed us. She had mastitis and she gave up and, you know, she always said to me, Oh, I couldn't breastfeed because I have mastitis.

And I was like, well, Cass, interesting. I've had mastitis three times now, and I carried on. So, there we go. I love to, uh, I love to say that to her. She don't like it. But, um, yeah, having my sister there, just to simply give me a nipple shield, that made such a difference to say, look, use these until they recover.

Here's some coconut oil. Use this, and you'll be on your way. And that was really what I needed in that time. Those nipple shields, I loved them. 

[00:34:26] Emma Pickett: I loved 

[00:34:26] Francesca: them. 

[00:34:27] Emma Pickett: I mean, great shout out for nipple shields. I was talking about this in a conference in Ireland, uh, just this couple of days ago. They have such a role in breastfeeding and they get often a bad rep and actually they really should be recognized as saving a lot of breastfeeding journeys and you're an example of that for sure.

How long were you, did you use them for? I don't remember, but I know 

[00:34:45] Francesca: that they were like gold dust and I had to hold them in a cup because, do you know what? If anyone's listening to this and they want to start a business, why not make nipple shields that are bright green? Because why do they make them see through?

You lose them. They drop off. You don't know where they are. Someone's on 

[00:34:59] Emma Pickett: it. I'm afraid your business opportunities gone. They're already there. There are these ones that change color depending on the temperature. So when you put them down, the color comes and they are colorful. And then when you put them on your body, they go a bit more see through.

Yeah, they look interesting, funny looking things, but yeah, no, they're out. They're out there. I'm not sure they're being given out in hospitals or used it a lot, but they exist, but yeah. Or they make little high pitch noise. That's the other option we, we can have. Oh, wow. No, I'm joking. They don't make happy.

Oh, they don't. That's what we should do. We should get ones that Hummer songs, so you know, wherever they are. 

[00:35:31] Francesca: I truly, I literally, I remember it. I can see it like it was yesterday. I had this old Miss Chatterbox mug from my mom's house and the nipple shields lived in that mug and you did not move the mug, the mug was life.

If I didn't have those nipple shields, I would take it out with me. But yeah, those nipple shields, it is funny. Like you say, they do get a bad reputation and I know some people are like, Oh, you shouldn't use them. But my nipples were close to falling off, and if I hadn't have had those nipple shields, and I mean, let's remember, these were second hand used nipple shields from my sister, um, I 100 percent could have given up then, because, oh yeah, they saved my life.

[00:36:07] Emma Pickett: Yeah, oh, I'm glad it worked out for sure, and three cheers for your lovely sister as well, even though she did make you pee in the garden, um, she made up for it in other ways. So the, when the babies are born, like just before 37 weeks, I think it's worth just mentioning that a lot of people think, Oh, they're big enough.

They're fine. You know, more than six pounds, all good. But sometimes it's, it's what Catherine Stagg is a lactation consultant calls the great pretenders, the kind of 36, 37 weekers who maybe are too big to get lots of help. Cause you, you know, you get sent home and everyone says they're fine. But they're not necessarily fully able to breastfeed, especially the five and a half pound and may not have quite enough oomph to be able to breastfeed or, or the fat in the cheeks to be able to create that negative pressure.

Was it harder to breastfeed the littler one? Do you remember? It's so 

[00:36:52] Francesca: interesting you say this because I was talking to my mum about this just the other day. So Reva was my smaller baby and Reva is the one I found harder to bond with. I always felt like Laveau was more my baby. Reva, I found really hard to bond with.

And she was doing something really cute the other day. And I was saying to my mum, look at her, look how perfect she is. And my mum said, yeah, remember you wanted to give her away? And I was like, yes, thank you, mother. I was going through a trauma. And I was like, mum, you know why that was? I was like, because every time she cried and I had to feed her, I used to think.

Oh, not Reva, please. Because she couldn't feed properly. She was five and a half pounds. I dreaded feeding her and I think when you are dreading feeding someone multiple times a day, of course you're going to find it hard to bond and so yeah, it was more difficult to feed her. She was just so tiny. 

[00:37:45] Emma Pickett: Yeah, yeah, we need basically little fat pads in our cheeks to be able to create negative pressure to remove milk from the breast and if we don't have those buckle fat pads, it can, it can be trickier.

Um, and definitely, I bet she was very dependent on Laveau doing the letdown. I mean, if you did, how long was it before you were able to feed them both at the same time? Was that something you did fairly early on? I always fed them at the same time because 

[00:38:06] Francesca: I think this is like, um, like an anthropology type thing though, that, you know, like babies that are breastfed.

They don't want you to, like you're, you're infertile, aren't you? Right? Like they don't, they basically don't want you to have another baby because they want all the milk for themselves. I just think, wow. Imagine that when there are two babies, there's such competition for like survival of the fittest. And so if I started to feed one.

The other one would start crying instantly. So I had to feed them in tandem pretty much from day one. So about a week in, I was like, nah, this is not normal for a person. Like this is cause with Beau, I would always just lay on my side, feed her. Life was easy. I could literally read a book with these. I had to sit cross legged, upright.

Day and night, a million pillows under me. So I went on to Instagram and I said, twin mums, what breastfeeding pillow do I need? And this resounding answer came back, the peanut and piglet pillow. And I'd been put off by that because it had such an ugly cover. And I was like, right, peanut and piglet, I've heard you.

I went on to Facebook marketplace. There was a woman nearly an hour away that had one. I called her. I was like, please, I need this like now. And she's like, oh, it's covered in milk. It's disgusting. I don't care. I don't care. I'm coming to your house now. And I drove there and I got it and I've never been so happy to see someone in all my life.

And I came back, I didn't even wash it. I was just like, put it on. And that freedom of having this pillow that I could finally feed both of them easily, by say easily, semi easily by myself was. It's incredible. That Peanut and Piglet, shout out to them, like they literally changed my life. That pillow came everywhere with me for a year.

So you had the chatterbox 

[00:39:49] Emma Pickett: mug, you had the pillow as well, you must have a little backpack but with all this stuff on you, you weren't working out. I'm glad that you, I'm so glad you found that solution. Um, yeah, getting the right pillow and the right size of pillow is, is an absolute lifesaver. But I was also going to say that because you did tandem feeding so early on, it's probably what really helped Reva because by Laveau feeding on the other side, she got the flow going.

She got the milk ejection reflex and, and that really helped Reva to put on weight and get that milk flow happening. Right. So in lockdown then, for those, anyone who wasn't parenting then, you didn't really see health visitors. There weren't breastfeeding support groups. You know, you might have gone months without necessarily seeing a breastfeeding professional.

Your GP check probably would have been a Zoom call rather than in person. Did you see any professionals once you got home from hospital? How many people were kind of giving you professional support? So Interestingly, 

[00:40:40] Francesca: in the hospital, I gave birth to them at nine o'clock at night, nine, ten o'clock at night.

Their dad came to see them briefly. My sister was there at the birth, but then they were both told to go home and I was left on my own with a caesarean scar, still paralyzed really. With two babies to look after all night and it was horrendous. There was no support. I co slept with them both in the bed. I did that with Bo as well by accident.

That's how the co sleeping started. You know, she came to be fed the first night in hospital and then I couldn't move and there was no one to take her back. So I was like, well, I guess she's sleeping here with me. And I remember waking up next morning being like, this is fucking lovely. Like we've just slept.

I felt so close to her. It was amazing. Anyway. Um, once we came home. I remember a health visitor coming and saying, Oh, you're going to have to top up with formula. And I went, Oh yeah. Okay. Then no intention. No. And I was like, yeah, okay, perfect. Um, and I do remember saying to her, when do you think I'll love them?

Cause I'm slightly worried that I don't love them. And she was like, Oh, it'll come. Like there was no concern there at all. And I feel like I'm going to cry again. That was like a real, like cry for help to be Yeah. I remember saying to her like, I have such a distinct memory and I think it's so important for people to know that it is different with every child.

So with Bohemia, we took her home from hospital. I had her in London and then we drove up to Lincolnshire, my husband, my mum and me. We drove up to Lincoln to our house up here to like raise her. And halfway on that journey, we stopped at a McDonald's. And we went in there and we sat down and all of a sudden I was like, overcome.

It's like someone had given me a pill in a nightclub and I was suddenly like, Oh my God. Oh my God. I love her. I literally, I love her. And I was, it's like someone had punched me in the face with love and I just cried in this McDonald's and I was just like, I can't believe I get to mother her forever.

Like, I can't believe it. I was so happy. And I kept waiting for that moment to come with the twins and spoiler alert, it never came. It never, ever came. That moment never came. And I think that that's what I was expecting. I was expecting this sudden hit and it never came. And this is when, um, The law of attraction really came into it.

So I used to sit and I used to sing them Adele make you feel my love because I was like, I didn't feel like I loved them, but I would sing to them songs about, I love you. And it was almost like saying it until I felt it. Yeah. And now obviously. I don't know when it happened. It happened gradually. Now, I love them so much.

Obviously, like they are the best things in my life, but it's so interesting how, whether it's your environment, the support that you have, the stress that you have, that moment never came and it is going to be different with each child, I think. 

[00:43:38] Emma Pickett: Yeah. What would you have liked that health visitor to have said to you?

What do you think would have been a healthy conversation to have at that point? 

[00:43:46] Francesca: So I think I would have liked a little bit more support from that. What do they call them? Health visitor. I think any pregnant woman will know that when you have a baby, when you're pregnant, everyone is so concerned about you.

Everyone cares so much about your mental wellbeing, your everything, your physical health, the second those babies are out, respectfully, no one gives a shit really. Which I find so ironic because. The biggest indicator of a child thriving is the wellness of their mother. The, the, the mindset and the, and the mental health and the physical health of their primary caregiver.

That is going to be the number one indicator of whether that child thrives or not. And so I find it wild that as soon as the baby's born, no one gives a shit. And there I am sitting in my mom's house saying, when do you think I'll love these babies? And she's like, Oh, soon. That should have been a massive red flag.

There's an incredible documentary. If you've seen it called, um, when the bowel breaks on Netflix, Emma, you need to watch it now. You know, it is, I hope it's still on there. It's an incredible documentary about postpartum depression, postpartum psychosis, and so many women that kill themselves and their babies.

There's so many women that have attempted suicide or have attempted to harm themselves or their babies. And you go on this journey with them all and it's following about eight women and they're going through like these, um, these workshops and things to help them process their feelings. And you get to the end of the documentary and you're like, wow, like they're really surviving here.

They're really thriving. And then at the end of the documentary, it comes up since the recording of this film, this mother and child have died. This mother has died. The women in the documentary. And you just think fucking hell, like you really thought they were, they were getting better. And I think it is such a massive issue.

And I think the biggest problem with it is that lots of women don't kill themselves, lots of women don't harm their babies, but they suffer in silence for years, for years and years. And a big part of it, I think, is that we are meant to mother in communities. We're meant to mother in tribes. And I strongly believe I was not designed to do this on my own, in a house, being the only adult.

That is not natural. It's not normal. I mean, you actually did 

[00:46:15] Emma Pickett: the continuum concept in the opposite situation to what it's meant to be done. It's not, I mean, you were, you certainly did not have your village and your people kind of, you know, cross nursing and sisters alongside each other. I mean, you had a, you know, a sister who could pot round, but you, you would not doing it in that community and you were, and you had the, the opposite of support from, from your ex partner.

So I know it's, it's silly to say, gosh, you're amazing because you can't imagine being anything else. But I hope you know that you are amazing. And I hope you know, I hope you know what you did was extraordinary and, and not only what you did at that time, but your willingness to talk about it now, honestly, and, and to talk about not bonding, I think is just really helpful for other people to hear that.

[00:46:56] Francesca: I hope 

[00:46:56] Emma Pickett: so. And to hear that it's not a blinding flash of love. It, it is something that just happens gradually and, and you may not even notice when it, when it does happen. 

[00:47:06] Francesca: I think it is scary to talk about, isn't it? It's scary to say like, Oh, I didn't love my baby. Like I, I didn't. And I worry that when they grow up, they might hear this, but actually there's a high likelihood that my daughters will become mothers and I want them to know.

I feel like I'd be doing them a disservice to say, Oh, I loved you all instantly. It was so easy. I didn't have any issues. I think it's actually. Very powerful to say, no, I struggled. Like it was different. I found even between the two twins, it was a very different experience. One felt more like my baby than the other.

How can that be? But I think it's only through talking about these difficult things that we can help women that are going to come after us, including our own daughters in including our own daughter in laws, you know, whoever it may be. And so, although it is difficult for me to say, I think it's also easy for me to say, because it is in the past.

And if you speak to any woman that struggled to bond with their baby, they'll always say, Oh my God, I love them now. Like it's like nothing ever happened. And I think that is why it's easy for me to say, because I love them more than life itself. But at the time you worry and you think, Oh my God, when's it going to come?

[00:48:14] Emma Pickett: So you had that horrible nipple damage. You did heal. Three cheers for coconut oil and nipple shields at the right time. Um, did you then go on to have lots of other breastfeeding problems? What were the next few months like? Um, 

[00:48:26] Francesca: no, that actually was it. After the initial like constant cluster feeding, my nipples being nearly ripped off, couple of bouts of mastitis.

I think once the supply issue was, you know, I said, I never expressed, I never had a supply issue because of that. It was literally on demand. Then no, it was fine. I think the only thing that was difficult is. I literally went down to a size four to six. I lost a tooth through malnutrition. Shout out to the NHS for not letting me have an NHS doctor or dentist or be able to see anyone about that.

Um, I'll never forgive them. But yeah, I had no support with that. I lost a tooth. I used to go out with a packet of peanuts in my coat pocket and I would just eat peanuts because it was the highest calorie food that I could get inside me. And I remember when we finally could go out to restaurants, I would go with my mom friends, and we'd go and have lunch.

And I'd say, sorry, guys, I'm going to have a dessert whilst we wait for our main to come out. And I would literally eat like two desserts. I'd eat a mate. I could not keep the weight on. I was so skinny just from them just taking everything. And it wasn't skinny in a good way. Like I look back and my sister.

God bless her, used to call me Skeletor, but I did, I looked like, I looked like I was dying. I looked like I had something wrong with me. I looked very, very ill. 

[00:49:43] Emma Pickett: You were just giving everything you were giving, literally giving everything to your girl. So their weight game was fine. No issues with their weight at all.

[00:49:50] Francesca: Oh, they were fine. It was me. It was like clinging on, like trying to cling on to life. No, they were fine. I also had a lot of bruising on my legs because I had to sit cross legged on this pillow to breastfeed. And so the pressure on my legs, I would, I would feed for sometimes up to 14 hours a day when they were younger, you know, if you think on a 24 hour period, like easily 14 hours a day and, um, that the stress position of holding that cross legged position, that was very difficult.

And I feel like there was a good mix of really appreciating it and being there in the moment and looking down at them being like, Oh, this is incredible. But also. Disassociating and actually while they were feeding, I would record, I would work, I would do stuff because how else do you get through multiple hours a day, sitting on your sofa looking at the same four walls with the same breastfeeding pillow?

You have to, I think, have a mix of, 

[00:50:45] Emma Pickett: you know, that. So recording while you're breastfeeding, that's very ingenious. So if we would go back to some of your early episodes, you'll have been breastfeeding while you were recording them. Yeah, brilliant. I want to ask you about how you looked after Bohemia at this time and how you kept your connection with her going if you're feeding twins 14 hours a day and you've got what a three, four year old to look after.

How did you manage that? Well, have you got any tips for anybody else? Well, 

[00:51:10] Francesca: she is my angel child. I probably couldn't have done it without her. I'm gonna cry again. She is the epitome of like, eldest sister syndrome. She is so caring, so nurturing. You know, that first year was like, Bo, can you go and get me a bottle?

Bo, can you get me that drink? Bo, can you get me that nappy? Bo, can you get this? And I hate that in a way, but also, I had no choice. I had no choice. So she was a great help to me. Um, I still continued to co sleep with her as well during that time. So that was challenging. Um, but it was very, very difficult to get time alone with her during those first, you know, that first year and a half, for sure, it was very difficult.

And I think she must've felt resentful at times that her mom, as she knew me, was gone. I didn't have the same time. I didn't have the same energy levels, the same patience, the same space for her. But there's nothing I could do. I feel like the benefits of having a full family now, and that's so interesting, isn't it?

Like as a single parent, I feel like when it was just me and Beau, rightly or wrongly, it didn't feel like a full family. I feel like at Christmases, at birthdays, we always had to tag along with my sister's family. To feel like it was a full celebration. Now we are a family of four and it is very full. It is very complete.

[00:52:34] Emma Pickett: So basically you're saying all single moms have to go off and get twins. Is that what you're saying, Francesca? Let's adopt, get yourself a family of four, 

[00:52:42] Francesca: but it does feel like they say, you know, when you feel your family is complete and the four of us are a family. So I feel like. The pros outweigh the cons.

No, she didn't really have me at all for like a year and a half. I tried to be as present as I could. It was hard, but she now has this incredible, uh, network of sisters that are going to be there long after I'm gone, I hope. And I feel like that outweighs it, but now we're very, very blessed because their time with their dads do not fully align.

So I have one weekend a month and every Tuesday evening that is just me and her. And so we absolutely thrive in that time. We, do you know what? I think when you're a single parent, your child becomes a little bit more like a flatmate. I try to, I try to remind myself, she's not my flatmate. She's my child, but like we enjoy doing the same things.

We like the same TV shows. We like going to the same restaurants. We go to the cinema and eat loads of food in the dark like we like doing the same things and she truly is my best friend. Um, so we have that sacred time, but also even when the babies are here, you know, they go to bed a little bit earlier on the weekends.

She gets in my bed and we watch our favorite Netflix show. So it's trying to give her that bit of time, just us, and it's hard, but I 

[00:53:54] Emma Pickett: have to make it happen. Yeah, I mean, and maybe I don't want to put words in your mouth, but I'm guessing because you'd had such a special start with her, her kind of security cup was already really full, like you had a little bit of leeway there that even if you weren't able to give her a lot of attention in the first few months.

She was already coming from a really secure place, which must have helped a bit for sure. So you carried on breastfeeding and then when the twins got to about 18 months, that's when visitation started to happen with, with your ex. And was there a bit of sort of to ing and fro ing around that or did you sort of feel that was the best thing for them and you were okay with that?

[00:54:30] Francesca: So it was court ordered, so I had no choice, but he's a great dad, so there was no question. There was never any question over that. It was just the fact that they were breastfed. And they could not be away from me at that age. That, that was just, that was my only issue. And so, yeah, when they were about, I don't remember, about a year and a half.

Yes. He started to see them and it would start being like a couple of hours. Then it would be overnight locally, and then it would be a little bit further away. And so, um, it kind of happened gradually. Do you know what? I've never had to wean as such. My children have all just naturally, I don't know if you can call it naturally because, you know, they spent time away, but they just naturally stopped feeding.

With the twins, especially, I felt like they were feeding, but like nothing was coming out. I feel like there was nothing coming out for a long time. And then one day it just stopped, and isn't it wild? 

[00:55:19] Emma Pickett: You don't remember that last time. You're just like, that is quite common. People are surprised how common that is.

You look back and go, oh, hang on. It's been three days, four days, a week. I haven't fed. They haven't asked. I'm not, you know, it just sort of fades, doesn't it? It just sort of goes. So in a way, I'm glad for you that you didn't have to have that horrible emotional Rip and you know, they weren't very distressed and you weren't having to night we made lots of tears because you don't deserve that on Top of everything else you were dealing with.

[00:55:44] Francesca: Oh 

[00:55:45] Emma Pickett: So it sounds as though just very gradually that you know, your milk supply reduced Maybe they lost a bit of interest their needs were being met elsewhere. How long did you co sleep with them? I still do. And I think 

[00:55:57] Francesca: I will until they like move out. Um, it's not through choice really. Uh, we have a big bed swapping game.

I moved to a bigger house because I was like, I don't have enough bedrooms for these children. And the irony is we've all got our own bedrooms. We all sleep in one bed. So, um, yeah, they all still co sleep with me. I've been single for five years. Is that a coincidence, Emma? I don't 

[00:56:19] Emma Pickett: know. I'm sure that if you met the right person, you could sneak a few hours here and there if you needed to.

I've got a guest room upstairs. That's the magic. You put everyone to bed. There are lots of co sleeping parents here listening to this going, Listen, I've got a family of five and I've co slept the whole time. I've managed it. So, um, you just find other places to do things. But you would need a very understanding, person who understands that your girls come first and if they are the right person, they would, they would get that for sure.

Yeah. So you're not, you're not manifesting the next partner. That's not something that feels important to you right now. It's not. 

[00:56:53] Francesca: It's really not. I'm trying to like decentralize men. I feel like women spend so much time and energy, a lot of women. On trying to find their dream partner. I have a friend at the moment who has gone through a breakup.

She's a single mom and the amount of time and energy she puts into dating and finding this man and she'll always say, Oh, he's got a really good job or he's got, and I'm like, you can create this for yourself. You know, if you put that same time and energy into creating it for yourself, then no one can take it away from you.

But also the type of man that you're going to attract is going to be better because you're not coming from a needy place, you know, you've already got it for yourself. So I'm open to love, definitely, but it's not something that I'm focusing on. I'm focusing on writing a book for mothers at the moment that I hope is going to help lots of women.

I'm focusing on raising my daughters. This is their last year before they start school. And so I'm trying to do all the things, like I'm going to every church baby group you can imagine. We're doing lots of forest play, like I am relishing this time before they go to school. Um, my daughter Bo is eight. I can't believe she's eight.

I've probably got 10 years left until she's not living with me anymore. And so do I want to waste a minute, like trying to focus on something else? Not really, not really. But if someone comes in, I mean, why not? 

[00:58:09] Emma Pickett: Why not? Yeah. So open to the options and whatever happens will happen for the right reasons. So your breastfeeding journey, it sounds very, obviously that horrible bit at the beginning with the, with the nipples and the sore nipples, but apart from that, it sounds very ideal in lots of ways.

I mean, you were, you know, the ending wasn't necessarily your choice, but you had these lovely 18 months where it was all working. Did you, have you met other twin mums? Do you, do you, have you been in any sort of twin mum groups or, cause you, you aren't super common in the sense that you are, you know, you were a single mum breastfeeding twins and looking after a four year old.

And I can't believe you've met many people who've been through your story. No. 

[00:58:47] Francesca: Um, I did make a couple of twin mum friends, but they all bottle fed, they all had partners. So it was a very different existence. And as I meet more and more people, you know, friends having babies and stuff, I have to remember.

That my experience is not everyone's experience. And as I'm writing a book for mothers, I have to remember it's not the same for everyone. So when I talk about twin grief. Some people that have a loving supporting partner don't understand what I'm talking about. They don't get it because for them, it's like, it's amazing.

We get to have a baby each, especially if it's their first baby, you know, they get to have all those experiences with a baby each. I'll never forget going to their first ever Christmas experience, going to visit Santa and my sister's husband had to hold one of the babies. And I remember looking over and thinking, this is her first Santa experience.

And she's being held by someone else. Like I'm not getting to do this with her. And the, and this is another thing as well for twin mums will probably relate to this. As I think back to that memory, I don't even know what baby I'm holding. Like, I don't have any real memories of those babies because I cannot remember who it was.

If I have a nice memory of walking along, baby wearing and, you know, the sun being out and thinking, Oh, this is lovely. I don't fucking remember who that was. What baby was that? I don't know. So it's very, it's something I've had to make peace with because, you know, there's people in far worse situations.

But I don't have any real memories of them. I don't know which one it was. I look back at pictures sometimes and I can't even tell which one it was. And there are things that you miss out on because you cannot, as a single person, physically give both of them the experience that you want 

[01:00:30] Emma Pickett: and, 

[01:00:31] Francesca: you 

[01:00:31] Emma Pickett: know, it's just something you have to get over.

Yeah. And as you say, twin grief is sometimes a word that expresses that feeling that you can't be everything for everybody. You are finite. Your resources are finite. But it sounds like you've got to a really healthy place of kind of accepting that. And I don't want to say forgiving yourself for that.

Cause you'd have, you've got nothing to forgive yourself for, but you, it doesn't sound like you're holding onto any guilt there. Is that, is that true? No, I look back and I 

[01:00:57] Francesca: think. This is what I love about self development is I think the more that you take positive actions for yourself and the more that you live in alignment with your beliefs and your values, whatever they are, you know, we talked about, God, how did I get through that?

I was breastfeeding them. I was looking after both and I was still being the kind of parent I wanted to be a very gentle parent, very loving parent. I managed to work on myself as well so that I could be the most healed version of myself for them. I also created a fucking amazing business and took us out of poverty and bought our dream house.

You know what I mean? Like to materially be able to give them whatever they want as well as emotionally. And I look back at that version of myself and I think, I fucking love you. Like I love you. You did that for us. You did that for me today. Version me that gets to sit here doing this podcast on my working day.

Like this gets to be my job. This gets to be my existence, my house, my family. This gets to be it because that past version of me showed up for me in small ways, time and time and time again. And so that is really how you build self love and self acceptance. And I think staying true to the kind of parent that you want to be co sleeping, breastfeeding, being a gentleman, whatever that is for you.

If you can stay true to that, you're going to love that whole experience and love yourself for being able to do it. But we can only do it when we come from a place of, um, filling your own cup. And that's why for me, for women and for mothers. Uh, working on your own self development and creating a life that you love is so important because I know that if I was stressed about money, if I was stressed about, um, you know, I hadn't done work on myself, so I was still in negative thought patterns, I wouldn't be the kind of mum I want to be.

I'd be snapping at them. I'd be angry. I'd be upset. I would, I would be in a low vibration. And so. You do it for yourself, but you also 

[01:02:53] Emma Pickett: do it for them. Yeah, well, three cheers for that. I mean, I mean, you are definitely an advert for what you preach in terms of, you know, the manifesting and the self development stuff.

I mean, there's no doubt in my mind and I'm, I'm a skeptical person that I can see how your positive mental self work. That's not a way of saying it. How would you say it? Your positive mental attitude and your belief that you can control your mental attitude. Absolutely got you through that first year when all that stuff was happening.

And, and, you know, all your self development work that you were doing at the exact same time when you were going through all this trauma and stress made an enormous difference. I can, I can see that for sure. Um, just having listened to some of your episodes, what amazing work you're doing. Gosh, thank you so much, Francesca, for your time today.

I could talk to you for another hour about everything and how you're going to carry on parenting is going to be super fascinating as well because you're such a role model for your girls and, and you know, I can imagine what a great mum of a teenager you're going to be, for example, because you're really going to, you're really going to help, really help them to sort of talk about their feelings and gain control around their own lives.

And you're going to make some little powerful little women of the future there. Watch this space because I reckon we've got three future leaders or whatever they want to be. They're going to achieve it so beautifully. Um, is there anything we haven't said about your breastfeeding journey that you want to make sure we cover?

Um, 

[01:04:11] Francesca: no, just that it was fucking hard and that you should be proud of it. Like, I feel like so many women feel ashamed of saying like breast is best, but the facts of the facts, breast is best and you should be really proud of yourself for being able to do it and persevering and however long you do it.

It's something to be so proud of. Do you know what I hate actually? Can I just say one thing I hate? I hate when men say it's really selfish that you breastfeed because I would like to feed the baby. Do you know what? Fuck you Dave. Fuck you. Your job, you can change a nappy. You can bond with a baby in a million different ways without feeding a baby.

Biologically, it's not normal for a man to feed a baby. And so I just think for anyone listening that they're saying, Oh, my partner says I'm really selfish because they don't get to feed the baby. Fuck them. Just fuck them. That's what I'd say. 

[01:05:02] Emma Pickett: The partner in that situation doesn't know a lot about breastfeeding, I think.

There's some education to be done there, isn't there? Because there is actually, funny enough, I've been talking this week about the role of dads in breastfeeding and partners in breastfeeding. And the partners that get it can absolutely transform a positive experience. I know we focused a lot on single parenting, but you know, there are dads who are making breastfeeding happen and being that support all around the country right now.

And feeding a baby such a tiny part of their existence for, you know, in the history of that human being, um, it's not forever and, and if you can be alongside your partner and support them with breastfeeding, you're going to have a little person at the end of it who's going to be healthier and happier.

So breast is best is a phrase that you won't hear me saying, just because I like, I like to say breast is normal. Okay. Breast is the default. It's our biological norm. It's a walking and a breathing and if we say breast is best, then lots of people say, well, I don't need best. I just need good enough. So that's one of the reasons sometimes that breastfeeding feels kind of, if you put up on a pedestal, maybe some people don't think it's, that's what they can achieve.

It feels like perfection. Whereas, It's just normal. It's what we're designed to do. As you said, we're animals. It's our default. It's our position. Um, and it absolutely can work if someone's got that right self efficacy, which you are, you are self efficacy woman here, Francesca. You believed you could make it work and you absolutely did.

And yeah, I'm inspired by you and, um, um, thank you. And I'm really excited to see what your book about motherhood is going to be, because I reckon there's going to be a lot of honesty in there that's going to connect with a lot of people. So. I look forward to that. Thank you so much.

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett, IBCLC and on Twitter at makes milk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist and leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast.

This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.