Emily and Ali's story - sister support

This week’s episode has it all - feeding twins, c-sections (both emergency and elective), triple feeding, cross-nursing, tongue tie, vasospasms - but what comes across most from Emily and Ali’s story is their love and support for one another as they breastfeed together.

Emily had her son Frankie just weeks before Ali’s twins, Suni and Kiri, were born, and they have fed together, often literally side by side at their parent’s home. They have overcome a number of challenges through their journey, and continue to feed their sons at a year old.

My new book, ‘Supporting the Transition from Breastfeeding: a Guide to Weaning for Professionals, Supporters and Parents’, is out now.

You can get 10% off the book at the Jessica Kingsley press website, that's uk.jkp.com using the code MMPE10 at checkout.

Follow me on Twitter @MakesMilk and on Instagram  @emmapickettibclc or find out more on my website www.emmapickettbreastfeedingsupport.com

This podcast is presented by Emma Pickett IBCLC, and produced by Emily Crosby Media.

Transcript

This transcript is AI generated.

Emma Pickett: [00:00:00] Hi. I'm Emma Pickett, and I'm a lactation consultant from London. When I first started calling myself Makes Milk, that was my superpower at the time, because I was breastfeeding my own two children. And now I'm helping families on their journey. I want your feeding journey to work for you from the very beginning to the very end. And I'm big on making sure parents get support at the end to join me for conversations on how breastfeeding is amazing. And also, sometimes really, really hard. We'll look honestly and openly about that process of making milk. And of course, breastfeeding and chest feeding are a lot more than just making milk. 

I am very happy to be joined today. By two sisters, Emily and Ali from Bath, um, what county is in Bath? It seems to move counties, is it North East Somerset? What's the story with that? [00:01:00] Yeah, 

Emily: yeah, yeah, Bains, Bath and North East Somerset. 

Emma Pickett: Okay, thank you. That's probably not the most important thing, but I care about that because that's where I used to live.

I did my PGCE, my teacher training in Bath many, many years ago when I became a primary school teacher. So, Emily and Ali are going to share today their experience of breastfeeding alongside each other. Sometimes literally alongside each other, but also metaphorically and socially and in terms of a support network and looking after each other through their breastfeeding journeys.

You're just coming up for one year, is that right? How old are your guys? Tell us about your family, Ali. Tell us about yours first. 

Ali: So, I've got twin boys, Suni and Kiri, and they've just turned one. 

Emma Pickett: Aw, happy birthday Suni and Kiri. 

Emily: And 

Ali: what 

Emily: about you, Emily? And I have Frankie, boy, and he was one last month.

Ooh, so they're nine weeks apart, is that 

Emma Pickett: right? 

Emily: So gestationally, nine weeks apart, but actually they were born a month apart. Okay, okay, 

Emma Pickett: okay. Okay, [00:02:00] so who was I'm really bad at maths. Help me out here. Who was, who was first? 

Emily: I was first. Emily. Okay. And then Frankie was very late and the twins were a little bit 

Emma Pickett: early, weren't they?

Yeah. Okay. So I'm guessing you found out that you were both pregnant at roughly the same time. Yeah. And was that planned? Did you sit down and look at your diaries and go, let's work this out? 

Emily: We get asked that so much. No, I think we just came to that. Yeah. Part of our lives at the same time. We did share a few ovulation tests.

Oh, yeah, we did. Yeah. Yeah We used to like send each other pictures like

Emma Pickett: Then you found out you're pregnant at the same time and how early did you find out you were having twins Ali? 

Ali: Uh, really early actually, I think about six weeks, we had an early scan because we had some fertility, um, support with, I had took some ovulation medication, so through that we [00:03:00] had an early scan, so pretty 

Emma Pickett: early.

And did you have any twins in the family? Was this your first experience with twins? First experience, 

Ali: yeah. 

Emma Pickett: What did you feel when you knew you were going 

Ali: to have 

Emma Pickett: twins? 

Ali: I was really shocked. We had been told that there was like an increased chance of twins with the medication I was taking but it was only like one or two percent increase, so it didn't really cross my mind.

Is 

Emma Pickett: that because your ovulation is stimulated, so you might release more is that right? Yeah. So Sunny and Kiri are fine. Fraternal twins rather than identical twins. Okay, cool. Cool. Okay. And what do you know about breastfeeding guys? I know it's difficult when there are two voices and you can't, we can't necessarily tell who's talking.

So, but it doesn't matter. You look fairly similar. You sound fairly similar. I won't get one of you to speak in a funny accent. Well, we'll work it out. But Emily, let me ask you, what was your experience of breastfeeding with the two of you breastfed by your mom? 

Emily: Yes. So we are, um, When, we're three girls, um, and we were all breastfed by our mum, [00:04:00] um, she said that I stopped at six months quite, like, abruptly.

And then Ali, I think you were like eight or nine months, um, again quite abruptly. So yeah, we were both breastfed. I think Ali did, was a lot more clued up on breastfeeding than I was, um, and you did quite a lot of prep, didn't you? 

Ali: Yeah, I think because it was twins, I just had the idea that it was going to be hard or harder.

So I did like a breastfeeding twins class, but when I was pregnant and I think that when we went together, we went to like a breastfeeding group when we were pregnant to get some support. But apart from that, neither of us have any friends with babies yet, close friends, so we hadn't really seen breastfeeding around us, I would say.

Emma Pickett: Okay. What's the age gap between the two of you? Two years. Okay. So the fact that you were, had a twin pregnancy and you were [00:05:00] absolutely clear that you wanted to breastfeed, it doesn't sound like that was even something you spent a lot of time debating. Ali, it sounds like you absolutely knew that's what you wanted to do.

Was that the lovely Catherine Staggs? Breastfeeding twins course. Yeah, her online course is great, isn't it? I've heard lots of people, lots of people tell me positive things about that. And I love the idea that you went to a class. You just turned up at a breastfeeding group and said, tell us all about it.

How did they respond to that? 

Emily: They were really happy to see us, weren't they? I don't think they get pregnant people coming, but we were based on maternity leave, um, before the boys arrived. So we were like, Oh, let's just go. Um, and it was really cute. They like got one of the dolls out and showed us some like positions and stuff.

And I remember I was so embarrassing. I literally dropped that baby doll on its head when I was trying to position. 

Emma Pickett: Well, that's the time to get all that out of your system. That's when you want to be doing it. 

Emily: And then tell us about your birth Emily. How did that go? The birth didn't go great in terms of like what I wanted.

[00:06:00] Um, and I think a lot of the prep I did when I was pregnant was more around the birth as opposed to like afterwards or breastfeeding. Um, so I was really keen for a home birth and we had all like the pool set up. But in the end I had to have an induction and then an emergency c section. So very different to what I wanted.

And I think that kind of really spurred me to make the breastfeeding work because I thought I haven't had the birth that I wanted. So let's really try and get back to it. 

Emma Pickett: That makes perfect sense. So Emily, I'm really sorry to hear that was your, your birth experience, but I recognize that story of wanting to really make the breastfeeding work as a result of that.

What were your very early breastfeeds like? 

Emily: So the first feed was actually really good in terms of like, I don't think we've ever had a feed that good since. No, I'm joking. But, um, I had to have a lot of help from the midwife because I was so shaky. I couldn't even hold Frankie. So she kind of did all the positioning and [00:07:00] attachment and he latched on and we've got this photo actually and I look at it and think wow that latch was so good um and it felt like he did a really good feed like in that golden hour in recovery but then after that we just couldn't get him to latch um he was really really sleepy.

Um, which I think was a combination of being quite overdue, but also from the C section perhaps. So we were always having to kind of wake him and set alarms and it was really, really difficult to get him to latch and as soon as he did, he'd just fall back asleep. So yeah, first feed was good and then after that was really challenging.

Emma Pickett: You said he was a little bit late. Um, how, how late was he? 

Emily: He was 42 plus three, so 17 days. 

Emma Pickett: Okay. And what kind of conversations were you having with people around that? Did you feel a lot of pressure for induction? Do you, what was sort of happening to you at that point? 

Emily: Yeah, I had quite a lot of pressure for induction.

I really, and I really didn't want an [00:08:00] induction because I knew, well, A, I knew I couldn't have a home bath with an induction and B, I just knew about, you know, Some of the risks of induction. So when I got to 41 weeks, they were really saying, look, we really need to get you booked in. Um, but I held out to 42 weeks, um, and requested a scan just to see how things were, 'cause again, I was happy to wait if things were looking okay.

I really only wanted an induction for a medical reason. So he had a scan at 42 weeks and that's when they said the amniotic fluid levels were really quite low. Um, so that was the decision that we made to have the induction, but yeah, it took three days. That's 

Emma Pickett: a long time, a long time. And then, and then you had a c section at the end.

Yes. Yeah. So you mentioned that Frankie was sleepy. Yeah. For a while. How, when did that start to get easier? Did it get easier? 

Emily: Um, I think only, he only really properly kind of got better at kind of week four. Wow. That's a long time [00:09:00] battling a sleepy baby. That's a long time. And we were still setting alarms, whether we needed to do this or not, or this was just our anxiety, but we were still setting alarms every three hours till he was kind of four months old.

Emma Pickett: Okay. So when he, when you say he was sleepy, he, you were waking him for a feed. Yeah. When he was getting on, he was able to take in milk. How was he getting on? Was he awoken in nappies? 

Emily: So, yeah, that's the problem that we had with, with weight gain. Um, so at the three day check, he'd lost 9. 1%. And at that point they wanted to readmit us.

Um, so we came out kind of evening day two, day three, the midwife came to our home and in the morning and weighed him and said, he's lost too much weight. You need to go back in. But we just knew that that wasn't, that wasn't going to help because I really struggled on the ward after he was born. The induction was fine, but because it was so noisy and so busy, And also it's probably important to mention he was like in the [00:10:00] baby boom, they always talk about, mid September babies, so although he was due in August because he was late, he was, it was incredibly busy in the ward.

So I think they said there were 17 babies born on his birthday. 

Emma Pickett: Whoa! Not at all. I'm joking, 

Emily: it was a record. So just that like busy environment, I just knew I needed to get home. to breastfeed. So yeah, they, they kind of did agree that we could stay at home. And also because they were so busy, I wasn't really getting any breastfeeding support in hospital anyway.

So I thought, why am I going back there? And yeah, it took him five weeks to get back to birth weight. Gosh, that's a long time. Yeah. Um, in the meantime, the health is to refer us to the pediatrician. Um, and we were seen and he had kind of blood tests and urine tests and it turned out he had quite a bad UTI.

which they treated with antibiotics and after they treated that, that's when things got better in terms of his weight gain, [00:11:00] but it's when the, the pressure for formula top ups really started. 

Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. 

Emily: And he was prescribed in Petrini, um, the kind of heavy, heavy duty formula. Yeah. But it got, it was difficult because he wouldn't take a bottle.

So they kept saying, you need to try, you need to try, but he really struggled taking a bottle and also I just knew that that wasn't right for us, like the breastfeeding was getting better. He was taking on more, so it felt like quite a, quite a struggle to have to kind of go against what we were being very strongly advised to do.

Emma Pickett: Well, I can hear you've got so much going on here, Emily. I'm really sorry you had all these stresses and the UTI is such horribly bad luck. And obviously, it's actually good to flag that up because I think a lot of people Would have gone straight to the formula and actually it's good that your team were thinking no, let's do blood tests Let's work out that something underlying and the fact that was identified as is really positive on one level But obviously, you know pressure to not [00:12:00] necessarily support your your feeding goals Not not so positive but I can hear that you're somebody who really trusts your instincts even when you're dealing with all this pressure and challenges There's something inside you that tells you when to listen to outside advice and when not to listen to outside advice, which is something that's worth its weight in gold.

You just had a sense that breastfeeding was turning around, you had a bit more faith that you could hang on a bit longer. 

Emily: Yeah, because there were some things that were really improving, like he was getting less sleepy. We also had an issue where I had a lot of pain on my right nipple and I got a bleeding cracked nipple.

And we had some support, um, and it was noticed actually he couldn't turn his head to one side. Um, so we had some, um, appointments with an osteopath and that really, really helped. Um, again, I got misdiagnosed with thrush, um, so I had thrush treatment, but actually once we got the tension released, that's when the pain stopped and he was definitely able to transfer a lot more milk.

So I think because we [00:13:00] could see these signs. different things were changing, um, and I was getting less pain. I was just so like, you know, I've struggled so far. I don't want to now give him formula. Like if I was going to give him formula, I should have just done it from the get go. So I think it was just my stubbornness, really.

Emma Pickett: Yeah. Stubbornness is one word for it, but obviously what we obviously worked out in the end. So you were listening to the right instincts. I mean, that comment about not turning his head. I think it's just important to highlight that because I actually have a separate episode on, on Torticollis, um, and we talk about that as a condition because it's so poorly recognized and, and often parents don't even know it exists and don't even realize it's an issue.

So if somebody's newborn is not seeming to turn equally from one side, the other seems to have a head turning preference. Always wants to look in one direction. That's a condition where you need some extra help. And as you say, it can obviously affect breastfeeding as well. So, so Ali, you've watched Emily go through this and, and how would, I mean, [00:14:00] how did it feel for you to see her go through this birth experience and have these early challenges?

Ali: It was, it was quite scary. I think we've talked about it since, and I think Emily protected me from a lot of it when I was still pregnant and probably was, didn't say how hard it was at the beginning. I think she didn't want to scare me and knew that I was going to be going through this experience really soon, but it was hard, but also really helpful because I got to see all of the things that she used.

That helped, like, osteopath and, um, I actually would come round a lot when I was trying to get some colostrum ready for when my twins were born. And I'd cuddle baby Frankie and I'd get so much more colostrum afterwards. I'd be like, please can I come round and cuddle? Um, so yeah, it was hard to see, but I think definitely prepared me for what was to come.

was potentially to come for me. 

Emma Pickett: Yeah, did you [00:15:00] find yourself, Emily, consciously holding back? It sounds like Ali thought that you did. Were you trying to avoid telling her things? Or I guess you might have been in such a newborn fog, you didn't necessarily even realise what you were holding back. 

Emily: Yeah, no, I definitely did try and hold back a bit, or just be quite mindful about the things I was saying, because I just knew she was going into the same hospital, she was going to have access, I guess, to the same, um, kind of feeding support and experience I had on the ward.

So I think I just remembered telling her like, make sure that you do get pain relief and that you write it down when you get it, because I never really got my pain under control. So I think I did hold back a bit. I mean, it was in some ways nice because Ali had an elective, um, cesarean with the twins because SuniF was breech.

Um, and I think Ali was quite nervous about the C section, so it was nice just reassuring her. I didn't find the actual C section part traumatic, it was him going into distress that I found distressing. So I guess it was nice talking her through that and [00:16:00] trying to reassure her. Although it was funny because I said the things she didn't need to worry about, you really didn't like.

Ali: What was your birth experience like, Ali? It was really lovely. I had a good birth experience. Yeah. I had, it was a planned C-section at 37 plus five days. So for twins, that's, that's old isn't it? Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. That is old. So we were just so happy that we'd made it that far and I didn't go into spontaneous labor.

I was just really happy we avoided the NICU and that we made it to the plan date and then everything, they didn't need any additional support when they were born and the birth was really, was really went smoothly and was positive. So. We had a good start with that. Yeah. 

Emma Pickett: Yeah. And 

Ali: what was your early breastfeeding like with the two of them?

Um, tricky. So they, one of Sunny, he really struggled to latch, um, in the early days. And both of them were very, very sleepy, [00:17:00] really hard to wake up for feeds. Um, and when we did manage to, they would then fall straight back to sleep, but also really unsettled at the same time. Wouldn't. wouldn't sleep anywhere but on my nipple.

So that was quite hard to manage. Um, and then at day three, they were, they had a 9 percent and 11 percent weight loss. So we were on day three, put on a triple feeding plan. Gosh, triple 

Emma Pickett: feeding with twins is a, that is tough. So for anyone who doesn't know, tell us what a typical day would have been like in that scenario.

So we, I 

Ali: would wake them both up. I would breastfeed them both, either tandem or one at a time, depending on what was happening. And then, We would give them a bottle each after that breastfeed and then I would pump to get the milk for the next bottle that would happen three hours later, but [00:18:00] from the start of the feed.

So actually by the time we'd finished that whole process, it was normally only about an hour and a half later before we had to start it all over again. And that was 24 hours a day. 24 

Emma Pickett: hours a day. Wowzers. And, and you talk about they, I'm guessing you're talking about a partner. 

Ali: Yeah. So we, my husband was there in the hostel with us, me, and we were really lucky that actually at the time we were living with my parents because the house that we're now in was really, really delayed moving into.

So, We were still living with my parents, which actually was a massive blessing in disguise because yeah, triple feeding twins, you need more than two people. 

Emma Pickett: Yeah, I was just going to say, it's definitely a four person job, really, because someone is in charge of feeding everybody else while everyone else is feeding twins and pumping and that's intense.

So you were advised to triple feed. Yes. But there's no formula in this story yet. You're just using Expresso. Um, 

Ali: we did use formula because. On my milk didn't come in [00:19:00] till about day five, day six. So we put, we started on the triple feeding at day three. So we were using, they were only taking about 10 mil, I think for their top ups at that point.

Um, yeah, more than I could. from colostrum. I was still just hand expressing at that point. Um, so we use formula in the early days and then soon it was mostly breast milk. 

Emma Pickett: Okay. Okay. So I would have been wanting to get you on a pump, I have to say before. Um, so hand express first to get the colostrum out, then pump for stimulation is ideally the way we're going, but obviously whatever you did, got you, got you there in the end.

Um, how long were you triple feeding for? A 

Ali: really long time. Probably, I mean, it did change in how strict we were with it towards the end, but I think we probably didn't officially stop top ups until they were about three months. Okay. 

Emma Pickett: Yeah. So you were pumping. [00:20:00] after every feed for three months. Yeah. That, I mean, that is extraordinary.

I mean, I hope you can look back in, in the past to historic Ali and say, wow, that is pretty amazing that you managed to keep going for three months. I mean, I'm, I'm guessing that is partly about the support of other people helping that, helping that as well as your own determination as well. Were you, how did you feel about mixed feeding?

Was that something that you were comfortable doing or you would rather not have done? What, where are you, where are you wanting to end up? I was quite 

Ali: happy with mixed feeding. I think a lot of it was I just didn't really know how to get there. I guess I was well, yeah, there was a lot of other stuff going on in terms of I had a lot of pain.

Um, I had vasospasms. That was the worst of the pain. So whenever they, my nipples would get cold, it was, it was honestly the most excruciating [00:21:00] pain and then it would happen all the time whether I was feeding or not. Um, so that was really hard. 

Emma Pickett: Were you somebody that suffered from sort of cold fingers in the winter anyway?

Did you have any sort of circulation issues? 

Ali: Not really, 

Emma Pickett: but 

Ali: I did have nipple pain during my pregnancy if it got, if, um, I got cold. So I did actually was, we had a lot of support from the infant feeding team and they, actually suggested I go to the doctors about the vasospasm because when they were looking they kept saying the latch looks great the latch looks great and I was like but it's so painful so they recommended going to the doctors and they did say that I could have potentially had Raynards so I was given nifedipine for that, um, which I took.

Nifipidine? Nifipidina? 

Emma Pickett: Yeah. I was really bad at saying medications. I would say nifipidine but I bet I'm wrong. N, I, F, I, D, E, P, L, whatever, the thing that [00:22:00] people 

Ali: are given to improve their circulation. Did that help 

Emma Pickett: you? Did you take it? 

Ali: I did take it and the vasospasm did stop, but a lot of other things, we did a lot of other things in that time.

So I don't know if that's what helped the pain, the vasospasm or whether the other things they did then have, um, tongue ties. which were divided at five weeks. 

Emma Pickett: It's my understanding that Emily helped you identify the tongue ties, is that right? 

Ali: Yes. Tell me what happened. So she actually helped with the, they were divided twice.

So we had the first division that was identified through the infant feeding team. They both had them cut and During then, they both got bronchiolitis and we were in hospital with both of them for a couple of weeks. Um, and then the feeding went out of the window and they were both, well, one of them, we were recommended to bottle feed Kiri.

[00:23:00] Um, because they wanted to know how much he was getting, which now I look back and think I wish I pushed breastfeeding a bit more. But yeah, that was a really tricky time. We came home from hospital and I was still just getting a lot of pain. They still really were not settled after just breastfeeding, really wanting those top ups.

And we were trying to kind of get to the bottom of that. And this was where I was the closest that I ever got during the whole time just of stopping breastfeeding. I did consider it a lot of times. But this was where I went to a lactation consultant that said, tell me how to, how I can stop, how do I kind of reduce the pumping and prevent getting my status?

And this, at that point, we went to a breastfeeding group together, me and Emily, and we were talking about me having the pain and me stopping. And I just thought, It's not, I, I'm obviously not meant for breastfeeding, it's not for me, and someone, the lactation consultant made some type of comment about, I wonder [00:24:00] how it would feel if you felt another baby.

And me and Emily just kind of looked at each other and thought, Oh, why don't we have a try? And we almost didn't really, it was like a nonverbal consent and we just thought, Oh, let's give it a try. So I took Frankie from Emily and thought, Oh, I'll see, see if it hurts when I'm feeding him. And he gave me a really funny look, like, what are you suggesting?

And then he latched straight on and it felt amazing. And there was no pain and I just thought this is what breastfeeding is meant to be and I just It was a really lovely moment of it's not my fault. I think I, I think I had a lot of guilt about it's my fault. I can't do it. And I best fed, thank Frankie and thought, no, this is what it's meant to be.

There must be something else going on. Gosh, isn't that fascinating. 

Emma Pickett: So we need to hire Frankie essentially, or find some, some happy baby. We can have some sort of coach go around the [00:25:00] country. Anyone who thinks they've got a tongue tie, we, we wheel out the babies. The consent forms will be a little bit complex, um, and then we may have legal repercussions later on in life when the babies realize what we've done, but what a valuable experience.

I mean, that's just lovely. And so you knew immediately therefore that something was not right and it wasn't about what latch looked like from the outside, it was something on the inside and, oh, no, that's just a lovely experience to be able to breastfeed your nephew. So your children are milk siblings.

according to the laws of Islam. Um, and they're, and they're also nephews and, um, cousins and everything else as well. Um, but they're your milk children. Oh, that's super. So is that the only time you ever fed Frankie or did you feed him another time? No, I fed him more. 

Ali: Um, so we don't do it very often. Now, but it just once we done it once it kind of that barrier was down and it just if it like [00:26:00] works for us so sometimes Frankie will be quite unsettled and just really wants to be feeding and Emily's feeling quite touched out and I'll say or do you I'll feed him for a minute or Or the, recently I had a block duct and um, I think my boys were napping or something and I thought, okay, I'll get Frankie, Frankie on to help me, help get that sorted.

Um, yeah, so we just, and if we're either of us are ill or the baby's ill, we sometimes swap just, um. I don't know. I've got the idea that might help with immunity. Um, yeah, we did try this week, actually, and none of them were having any of it. They said, no, thank you. So I wonder if they're too old for it now.

Emma Pickett: So, Emily, what were your experiences? Is it cross nursing? That's the phrase I would use to talk about, um, feeding other people's children and your sister's children, obviously going back thousands of years. This would not have even been a conversation because everybody [00:27:00] would have been doing this. Going back 200 years, everybody would have been doing this.

And probably around the world, most babies will be fed by siblings and aunts and grannies and other family members. What are your memories of that group when Frankie was fed by Ali for the first time? 

Emily: Yeah, I think like Ali said, we didn't really think about it too much. I think if we thought about it too much, we might not have done it.

But yeah, we just swapped and it was just nice to see this relief come over Ali of like, Actually, this is what it's supposed to feel like. Actually, we did swap, so I breastfed Kiri at the same time, and that's when it hurt, and I think Ali was really relieved. I mean, it didn't hurt a lot, but I think probably the pain Ali had was cumulative.

Yeah, yeah. So it wasn't like, ow, ow, ow, but it was like, no, this 

Emma Pickett: doesn't feel quite right. This is not as it should be. Yeah. Yeah. So you immediately felt something was different. And, uh, yeah, you say Ali would have, that's all she'd ever experienced. So over time her nipples would have really started to complain about that.

Yeah. [00:28:00] And have you ever fed both of the twins at the same 

Emily: time? Um, I have tried Tandem. I don't know if it's the twins, I've had Frankie and one of the twins. Um, because I was just quite curious, because I'm the most ignorant of Ali with Tandem feeding. But yeah, I just thought, wow, this is quite a lot. Um, don't know how you do this, Ali.

It is a lot. 

Emma Pickett: A little advert just to say that you can buy my four books online. You've Got It In You, a positive guide to breastfeeding is 99p as an e book, and that's aimed at expectant and new parents. The Breast Book published by Pinter Martin is a guide for nine to 14 year olds, and it's a puberty book that puts the emphasis on breasts, which I think is very much needed. And my last two books are about supporting breastfeeding beyond six months and supporting the transition from breastfeeding. For a 10% discount on the last two, go to Jessica Kingsley Press. That's uk.jkp.com and use the code MMPE10, Makes Milk Pickett Emma 10. Thanks. 

So your pain got easier, Ali, once the tongue tie had been resolved.

Yeah. It got more comfortable. And then you, how old were they when you were pain free? Probably about a week 

Ali: after the second tongue tie, so I think about eight weeks. 

Emma Pickett: Okay. Yeah. So you were pain free. You weren't getting the vasospasm anymore and vasospasm is not just about temperature change. I'm sure you're aware that the tongue tie could have also been the cause of the vasospasm as well.

So the constriction during feeding and the nipple being squashed against the hard palate once the nipples out of the mouth and the air hits it and blood vessels that were constricted are opened up again, we can, you know, we can start to get discomfort and all sorts of things being, you know, causing [00:30:00] difficulty related to the latching.

Yeah. But you carried on expressing for another few weeks. Yeah. And Do you express a standard now? Is that still part of your normal day? No, 

Ali: never anymore. I think I've, I hate expressing now. I think because I had to do it so much at the beginning. Um, I had quite a similar experience to Emily with the weight gain pressures that once, once the second tongue tie was released and the pain was stopping, I just felt confident that it was now going to work and I could see the milk transfer happening.

And I just, yeah, I felt confident that this Yeah, we were going to make it in terms of breastfeeding, but we had then a lot of pressure to increase the top ups. And, um, I think because they were born quite early, they were born on like the second percentile on those weight charts. Um, and when they were ill in hospital, they dropped to the 0.

4 percentile. So they were just [00:31:00] really worried about them because they were so small. But as soon as we had that second cut, now, now they're a year old and we know the whole, we can see the whole graph. It just goes up, up, up, up, up from the eight weeks, but obviously at eight weeks, we didn't know. So the health visitors just really wanted us to give, be giving more top ups, which would have meant formula because I wasn't, um, expressing enough for the, they wanted me to.

Yeah. They were suggesting for me to give what a formula fed baby would take for their full day rather than half or top ups. Um, and I, I went against their advice actually at that point and continued doing the like 50 percent top up. So it was about 30 mil per feed and then dropping them slowly. Um, and because I went against their advice, they referred us to the pediatrician.

Um, which was actually a really positive experience when I, when they referred us, I [00:32:00] was really scared. But when we went, um, she actually really supported us and our decision to continue breastfeeding and, um, said that they're, even though they were small, they, she did their weight, uh, their length or height, I don't know what you say for a baby.

Um, and it was also on the second percentile and she just said they're small babies, um, And me and my partner are small. And that we didn't need to worry and we could stop taking them and to be where they were being weighed at that point weekly. Which was really stressful. So she, yeah, supported us, which was fantastic.

And from then, that was probably about 10 weeks. And then that was the start of our really positive breastfeeding experience. 

Emma Pickett: Yeah. Well, I'm so glad you had that, that connection with that pediatrician. That sounds like really, really special timing, just when you needed it. Yeah, so you've obviously supported each other in terms of literally feeding each other's babies But you also had lots of similarities in your experiences and the [00:33:00] formula and the pressure cheese formula Which didn't feel entirely comfortable and the weight gain issues.

What was the sort of day like? Are you whatsappers? Are you talking on the phone? Were you getting together and sitting in the same room? What sort of contact were you having in those weeks? 

Emily: Um, so I think in the early days, like Ali said, she was still living with mum and dad and now she's probably worth mentioning that we all live within like a 10 minute walk from each other.

Um, so it was kind of funny timing because my husband, John went back to work on the Monday. And the twins were born on the Friday, so it was kind of like, I guess, thinking like, it was all happening at once. But I used to just come round every day, and just spend all day, we'd just spend all day together, 

Ali: shouldn't we?

Yeah, and we'd pump, pump together, um, because Emily was pumping as well. My dad was quite uncomfortable by the whole breastfeeding situation and he used to call the living room the lactation station and [00:34:00] he just never really went in there. Or if he did, he'd invert his eyes. 

Emma Pickett: I hope he made the sandwiches to make up for it.

If he's not going to help out physically, he can certainly do all the cooking and the cleaning 

Ali: for sure. Um, and we just kind of shared everything breastfeeding. We would, I had a twins breastfeeding pillow that I found really helpful. And Emily, um, borrowed that and then got her own. We had a bit of a, um, bra pumping bra hack fail together, which.

another, which we only worked out because we were both doing it. Um, you have to give me the details now. What happened with that? We'd seen, I can't even describe it now, but we'd seen somewhere instead of buying a pumping bra, you can just hack your own breastfeeding bra by kind of doing this trick where you wrap all of the things around the pump to keep it on so you can be hands free.

So we both did that for a few days and thought it was the best thing that ever happened because we could finally eat [00:35:00] at the same time as pumping. And then we were both saying, Oh, I've got really sore armpit. Yeah. Questioning it with each other. And then you 

Emma Pickett: both at the same time, the same problem. Oh no.

Ali: And then we thought that's blocked up from this tight, tight bra situation. 

Emma Pickett: Yeah. So then we just bought 

Emily: pumping bras and that was a lot better. 

Emma Pickett: Oh dear, that was a bit tragic, it happened to both of you at exactly the same time. But luckily no mastitis, you didn't go into mastitis. No, 

Ali: I think because we were chatting with each other and we'd both done it, we caught it really early.

I think otherwise we probably wouldn't have clicked what it was. 

Emma Pickett: Okay, so you're around at your mum and dad's house, Emily. being fed by someone else, I hope. And then this is sort of wintertime, I'm guessing, last year. So it's getting dark, you're packing back up, you're going back home to John, who's like, why is the house freezing cold?

Have you been here all day? Nope. Um, and what was it like when you didn't go around every day? Are you still going around every day? Are you back at work? What's the [00:36:00] situation now? 

Emily: Yeah, we're both back at work. But we probably do see each other most days, to be honest. And we message each other the same message every morning.

How was your night? And it's normally the same reply. Terrible. 

Emma Pickett: So what's happening with sleep? So everyone's one. What's happening right now? Tell me your breastfeeding patterns, Ali. What's happening? So breastfeeding in the day 

Ali: has reduced quite a lot since I've been going back to work. Um, so now I'm still feeding at lunchtime.

I'm quite lucky that, um, my work's been really supportive with breastfeeding and they've arranged so I can. Come back home and feed them at lunchtime because I was really reluctant to pump again. And I knew that I, my, me and my boobs wouldn't last the full day at the moment. So I'm just doing morning, lunchtime, evening.

And then sometimes it's a bit of a buffet at night still. 

Emma Pickett: Okay. So a bit of a buffet at night. Everyone's nodding and recognizing the one year old breastfeeding buffet. Where's, how's your setup? Where's everybody sleeping? 

Ali: So, um, one of them, Sunny, is a [00:37:00] better sleeper and so he's in his own room on a floor bed so I can feed him and roll away.

Um, and Kiri just still wakes way too often for me to want to get out of bed that often. So he's in like a really big side car next to me. situation, but often co sleeping. 

Emma Pickett: So you're sometimes going through to Sunny, hearing Kiri wake up and having to dash back through to Kiri, I'm guessing, or is it working?

Is 

Ali: it? Yeah, my husband helps, um, and he can settle them quite often without me. So if that happens, Um, yeah, he'll settle whoever's woken up if I'm feeding one. I used to do a lot of tandem feeding in the night, but yeah, now they're in separate rooms. I don't run them back and forth. So we just try our best.

Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. And what's Frankie's night like at the moment, Emily? 

Emily: Um, he just wakes up every, um, probably every two hours. That's the longest stretch of day. But he, we have [00:38:00] moved him into his own room. We co slept till he was about 10 months, and then we were both going back to work. And this was when he was waking up probably every sleep cycle, and I just thought I'd need to try something else.

So he's in a floor bed in his own room, and I, I sleep better with him in the other room, and he started doing longer stretches, I don't know if that's because he's in his own room or if it's a coincidence, but yeah, he probably wakes to feed every two hours. Okay, 

Emma Pickett: so I, I'm really impressed that every two hours you're able to wake up and go through and feed and come back again and you don't end up staying in his room, that's, that's, that's willpower to make sure you go back into his room again, I'm impressed.

But you feel like you're managing at work, it feels doable, or are you absolutely struggling? I am quite tired, 

Emily: but, I don't know, I think you just get this superpower when you breastfeed, like, I just feel, I think the breastfeeding helps me fall asleep really quickly after I fed him, and he's such an efficient feeder now.

He can feed in like five minutes and go back to [00:39:00] sleep, so, um, yeah, it's okay, it's 

Emma Pickett: manageable. That's handy for sure. So, you've got through your first year, congratulations on both of you. Has there been anything in this first year where you made different parenting choices and that was a little uncomfortable or a little awkward?

Ali: Not that I can think of. 

Emily: No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I think we're both, we are quite similar in terms of, although we've struggled with sleep and have been quite tempted to sleep train, we've managed to resist and I think we're quite similar in terms of our thoughts around that. And actually I found it helpful with Ali that I've talked to her and I've, when I've been really struggling and saying, Ali, I can't do it anymore, I'm just going to sleep train.

And Ali's kind of like reminded me of what I've said before, and that's been quite helpful. That is 

Emma Pickett: very useful. Yes. In the moments where you feel tempted to go against what you know is your core belief, someone else to reflect back on [00:40:00] you, what your core belief is, that's super handy. And what are your sort of thoughts around the long term of breastfeeding?

Do you have any ideas around your goals, Ali? What would you like to be doing in another year's time? I think I would love to breastfeed 

Ali: till they're two, if we're still all happy doing it. But yeah, that would probably, which if I'd heard myself say eight months ago, I would have laughed because I would have thought that seems crazy.

But now I just can't, I can't imagine stopping. I definitely wouldn't mind reducing, especially in the night, but also I can't imagine how that's going to happen. So it's working for us. And I, I do really love it. So yeah, two, I think two or maybe more. 

Emma Pickett: And for anybody who's breastfeeding twins or think or about to breastfeed twins, we mentioned Catherine Stagg's group.

Um, is that something you post in and you're a member of as well, the Facebook group? Yeah, 

Ali: that's, that's great. That's amazing. It's, yeah, the, the course that we went on with her when I was pregnant was so helpful and the group [00:41:00] is really great. Um, yeah, just for moral support. Twins is a whole different kettle of fish.

Sometimes I think it's just different and it's really helpful having, other people that have had similar experiences, especially with the weight gain stuff. I got a really big boost from the group when I, I posted their charts and, um, a lot of people saying that because their twin, a lot of twins are born so small, they have similar kind of growth on the chart of them being on the lower percentiles.

Um, so that was really helpful. 

Emma Pickett: Yeah. So that's the Facebook group, Press Feeding Twins and Triplets UK. And it's also a charity that even fund for home visits. And there's a lot, a lot of work going on with that charity. It's just absolutely golden. And what's your thinking about Frankie's breastfeeding journey, Emily?

What are you feeling? Um, I think I'd love 

Emily: to go as long as possible. Providing we're both happy. I think because we overcame so much at the beginning, like literal blood, sweat and tears. [00:42:00] Um, and now it feels so easy. It just feels like that it wouldn't be the right time to stop now. 

Emma Pickett: Yeah, you have earned the right to continue for as long as you want to.

That's for damn sure. And, and it must be, I mean, you don't know what it's like to have a baby without a sister, if that sounds obvious. So you have no idea what it's not, what's normal. Um, but I'm kind of grateful that you didn't have to do this in COVID and you weren't forced to be in separate houses and you, I guess you would have bubbled eventually when the bubbles happened, but you'd have been separated from each other and, and it must've been really special to, to have each other alongside each other during these difficult challenges.

And are the boys sort of aware of each other and beginning to sort of play with each other? How's that going? 

Ali: Yeah, they're playing with each other upstairs now, probably, maybe fighting a little bit over the toys, um, but they are pretty close. Yeah. 

Emily: Yeah. They're really close. We have this rule that Frankie can't have any hard toys because he is quite a basher.

Um, [00:43:00] so they just have soft toys together. 

Emma Pickett: Oh, I can just imagine the three of them running around and playing on the beach and having all these lovely experiences as they get older. That's, that's super special. Oh, so when was the last time you fed someone else's baby? How long ago was that experience? You mentioned, Ali, that Frankie wasn't up for it the other day.

When's the last time you fed a twin, Ali, uh, Emily? Um, was it when we went out for tapas, Ali? Oh, 

Ali: yeah, yeah, 

Emma Pickett: yeah. So 

Ali: maybe A month ago. 

Emma Pickett: Yeah. So quite recently. Yeah. So the one year old point for sure. Okay. Oh, it's really lovely to hear your story the two of you. Thank you so much for sharing and I really hope that you both get to carry on and meet your goals.

And um, what would you say to somebody who's listening to this that's right in the middle of that, that weight gain issue and maybe someone is telling them to use formula and it doesn't feel quite right or the quantities don't feel quite right. What message would you want to leave with that [00:44:00] person? I think I'd say trust your 

Ali: gut.

Yeah, trust your instincts, and you know more than you think. I think in the early days when you're, when it's all new, it's really easy to think that the professionals know better, and if your gut is telling you it's not the right thing, then it's It probably isn't and I, yeah, I'd say trust what you, trust your instincts and get as much support as you can.

Emily: Yeah, I think I'd just remind them to think about, you know, that graph with the centaurs is for an average baby and not every baby can be average. Finale reflects on it quite a lot. I think because Frankie was so overdue, he did have an inflated birth weight. So, The drop looked worse than if he'd been born at term and.

Yeah, I mean, overdue 

Emma Pickett: and C section. So you'd have had, and that long induction as well, you must have had such much, so much fluid going into, you must have been like that, you know, the world woman from China, the chocolate factory that was spherical. I mean, you just must have had so much fluid in your [00:45:00] body.

His, I mean, actually, if anything, that 9 percent drop was not as much as I would have expected. Potentially that was, there was a lot of fluid happening. Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. But also, I think what you were talking, Ali, about visiting the pediatrician, that seeing a pediatrician is not always a scary thing.

It's not necessarily the place where you're going to get more pressure. It can be the place where you get that, you know, the connection and the person that's really listening to you and the person that's really supporting you. Sometimes you won't know until you go into a room, whether that's the right person who is going to support you.

But, but as you say, meet as many different people as you can and get the support from different places and you will find the person that you connect with. For sure. Well, it's lovely to hear your journey, the two of you, and good luck with the rest of the next stage. I'm just going to imagine you all playing on the beach somewhere, and the three little boys, and you're breastfeeding nearly two year olds, and it's all, all lovely, and I'm not going to think of you in the winter in, in muddy Somerset [00:46:00] having a cold vasospasm nipple.

I'm going to imagine it's all lovely and picturesque. Um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you don't sound like you row very often for sisters. Is that, that's my final comment. Uh, you sound like you're just really, you're really good friends. It doesn't sound like you're having, now I'm going to get the dirt here in the last few moments 

Ali: and on a low point, 

Emily: we're talking about this the other day.

I think in pregnancy we have like the normal, like sister tension, little bit of competitiveness, but honestly, since the boys have come, like. I don't know, we've just never been closer. And actually, have we had a row owl since they've been born? I don't think so. Maybe there's one Jew. I 

Emma Pickett: mean, it's gotta help a little bit that you're both having rubbish nights.

I mean, if one of you said, Oh yes, Frankie slept through again. Oh yeah, no. I wonder if Ali might separate herself a little bit at that point. Maybe we've had a lot of shared experience. [00:47:00] Yeah, you have definitely. You've had the normal experience and you've had the shared experience, which I think is super special and long may that continue.

Thank you very much both of you for sharing your stories with us. Oh, we forgot 

Emily: to do a shout out, if that's okay. Oh yeah, of course. We'd like to say thank you to Heather. So Heather is a lactation consultant who, she's a family friend is how we know her. And she is the one we go to her group on a Friday.

Emma Pickett: Oh, what's her surname? Heather Kale. Kale, as in green leafy vegetable. Yes. Yeah. And so she's in Bath, I'm guessing. Shout out to Heather. Always nice to mention other lactation consultants. And was she the one that said, Oh, I wonder how it would feel to feed a different baby? Yeah. I wonder what she was imagining you might do next.

She wasn't pushing you, but she was dangling an idea and that felt like the right thing to do and gave you a good, good answer for sure. 

Emily: But we always say that I don't think we beat breastfeeding without Heather, just so much support in terms of like the basics in terms of like [00:48:00] positioning and attachment, but also just the emotional support and the encouragement and you know, when Ali said that she was felt really close to.

wanting to end, she went to Heather for support and Heather just with no judgment said, yep, that's fine, this is how you do it. And as soon as, I guess, I don't want to talk for you Ali, but I'm be saying, you know, as soon as you were given permission and Heather told you how to do it, that kind of gave you the, the kind of reason to be like, no, actually I don't want to.

Yeah. 

Ali: It was that just no judgment reaction and no, like, that it wasn't a failure and it, and if that was the right decision for me, it was the right thing to do. And she really would have supported me to stop and that actually really made me want to continue. 

Emma Pickett: Yeah. Yeah. That's special to hear. Sometimes it's actually knowing the process of how you would stop and realizing it's not that scary.

Yeah. Realizing if you ever did want to do it, it would be manageable, then gives you the freedom to be able to carry on and push forward. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Thanks very much to the two of you.[00:49:00] 

Thank you for joining me today. You can find me on Instagram at Emma Pickett IBCLC and on Twitter @MakesMilk. It would be lovely if you subscribed because that helps other people to know I exist. And leaving a review would be great as well. Get in touch if you would like to join me to share your feeding or weaning journey, or if you have any ideas for topics to include in the podcast. This podcast is produced by the lovely Emily Crosby Media.